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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is they called me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We are joined as always with our super producer Paul

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Speaker 1: Mission Control decade. Most importantly, you are you. You are here,

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Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know. Uh. Suspected serial killer Benjamin Franklin once famously wrote,

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Speaker 1: in this world, nothing is certain except for death and taxes.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's such an interesting thought exercise to imagine

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Speaker 1: what he, or truly anybody from the seventeen hundreds would

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Speaker 1: think about the modern day. Like Benji Frank's example, I

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Speaker 1: personally think the guy would have loved Twitter and probably

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Speaker 1: tender too, probably like things even more specific than tender,

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Speaker 1: you know, might he might have gone grinder occasionally, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think he can see as an equal opportunity um romantic.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine him adding an addendum just for the

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Speaker 1: purposes of this episode, to be like and glass jars

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Speaker 1: or right exactly. Yeah, it's it's because it's easy for

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Speaker 1: us to imagine what someone from the seventeen hundreds would

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Speaker 1: find impressive in the modern day. You know, things like

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Speaker 1: airplanes or electric lights, or space shuttles, or the fact

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Speaker 1: that some people can survive diseases that used to be

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Speaker 1: a death sentence. But it's also easy to forget the

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Speaker 1: commonplace stuff that would absolutely like destroy their brain for

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Speaker 1: a few days. And one of those big things is plastic.

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Speaker 1: We live in the age of plastic. It's all around

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Speaker 1: fund us. If he was confronted with this, Ben Franklin

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Speaker 1: might have to revise that quote and say nothing is

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Speaker 1: certain other than death taxes, and I guess plastic. Now.

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Speaker 1: We did an episode on a real conspiracy surrounding recycling,

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Speaker 1: and it's about microplastics. Please check it out. That's where

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Speaker 1: you'll learn a lot of the basics of plastics history

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Speaker 1: and it's composition. But there's still a ton of stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know about plastic, billions of

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Speaker 1: tons actually. And today we're taking a slightly more meditative approach,

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Speaker 1: and we're asking a question that many of our fellow

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Speaker 1: conspiracy realists have probably thought about, which is this what

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Speaker 1: would the world be like without this? Stuff. Could we,

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Speaker 1: as a global civilization ever turned back the clock and

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Speaker 1: live in a world without plastic, and then perhaps is

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Speaker 1: it something that we would actually want to do? Well,

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Speaker 1: here are the facts. It's uh, we've got a lot

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Speaker 1: of numbers here, but we're gonna try to make sure

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Speaker 1: they're not the kind of numbers that make your eyes

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Speaker 1: glaze over. Yes' because plastic is absolutely everywhere. I mean

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Speaker 1: just look around your workspace, or your bedroom, or your

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Speaker 1: house anywhere. I mean, right in front of my eyes

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Speaker 1: is like a ring light that's made of plastic. The

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Speaker 1: lens part that the light filters through this webcam that

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Speaker 1: we're broadcasting into made of plastic. You know, all of

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Speaker 1: the pieces that make up the case of my monitor,

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Speaker 1: any of our monitors, plastic inside the guts of the thing,

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Speaker 1: so many plastics. The printed circuit boards that electronics are

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Speaker 1: mounted on made of plastic, um or various you know,

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Speaker 1: types of plastic. They're there. There are obviously several categories,

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Speaker 1: but the fact is it is absolutely everywhere, and it's

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Speaker 1: an incredible miracle of innovation. Uh. It's lightweights, it's easy

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Speaker 1: to manufacture, you can shape into just about anything, and

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Speaker 1: it's sturdy. Um then you point out that it's up

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Speaker 1: there with say the wheel or you know, the basic

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Speaker 1: tool tools that we use are things like pully or

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Speaker 1: a lever. You know, important innovations that allowed us to

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Speaker 1: kind of step outside of our limitations as human beings.

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Speaker 1: I want to jump into the six basic tools real fast.

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Speaker 1: I'm off the top of my head without looking at

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Speaker 1: the list. The hammer, hammers, one bottle, opener, Scott number two,

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Speaker 1: instant opener, ice, ice pick, or some sort of stabbing tool.

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Speaker 1: I imagine, right, I think we're talking. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I know we're not talking about those things. Are being jokey,

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Speaker 1: but sorry about that. Guys, what don't apology? Don't ever

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Speaker 1: apologize for a good joke. No joke left behind. Hashtag

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Speaker 1: it tweeted it's it's true that it's easy for us

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Speaker 1: to underestimate the profound impact of plastic in all its

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Speaker 1: various forms and genres. I mean, I I don't think

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Speaker 1: some people disagree with me, but I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: exaggerating to say that in terms of importance to civil wization,

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Speaker 1: both positive and negative, plastic might be up there with fire.

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Speaker 1: It might be up there with the time somebody figured

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Speaker 1: out how to create fire. But it also begs the question,

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Speaker 1: like all the things that we're describing, all of those

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Speaker 1: things that I'm looking in my room and and and

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Speaker 1: rattling off, are these things that we necessarily need? I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you look back to you know, bake light, the

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Speaker 1: earliest version of plastic, it was kind of designed to

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Speaker 1: make sort of chintzy crap that we could be sold

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Speaker 1: and and convinced that we needed it. It is very

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Speaker 1: much a product of like the material age, you know,

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Speaker 1: the materialistic age that we need to acquire all this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and certainly the idea of computers and the plastics that

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Speaker 1: are used and things like a monitor. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: could certainly be hard pressed to turn back the clock

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Speaker 1: and live without those things. But you know, when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about the basic simple machines, things like a screw

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Speaker 1: or a wedge, you know, or a plane or a

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Speaker 1: pulley or whatever, these are I think much more necessary

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Speaker 1: than plastic. But you can't really put that genie back

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Speaker 1: on the bottle, now, can't you, because we're used to it. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna It's probably not going to happen. And

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Speaker 1: that is the most optimistic way I can phrase that response. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: the most solid reports right now estimate that there is

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Speaker 1: a little north of eight point three billions of tons

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Speaker 1: of plastic on the planet. Of that eight point three billion, uh,

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Speaker 1: six point three billions of those tons are straight up trash.

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Speaker 1: It's garbage. No one's gonna use it, no one's gonna

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Speaker 1: recycle it, no one's gonna burn it. Uh. This is

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Speaker 1: just to give you the image in your mind, folks,

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Speaker 1: this is the equivalent of like fifty five million jumbo jets.

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Speaker 1: And uh, if that, if that doesn't really bring it home, Uh,

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Speaker 1: pull up a picture of Mount Everest and realize that

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Speaker 1: if you stacked all this plastic up in one place,

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Speaker 1: you would easily get a pile literally bigger than the

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Speaker 1: tallest mountain in human experience. Uh, there's already an insane

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Speaker 1: amount of trash just on that actual mountain itself from

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Speaker 1: all the would be uh you know, Everest summitters, you know,

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Speaker 1: out there and like leaving all their their droppings behind.

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Speaker 1: It's it's become a real problem. I get an image

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Speaker 1: of that movie Wally, with all the trash mountains that

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Speaker 1: exists on the planet at that point in the future.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm seeing. The three of us recently went

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Speaker 1: to a friend of ours art studio that happens to

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Speaker 1: be situated right next to what is supposedly a recycling dump,

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Speaker 1: I guess, for lack of a better term, uh, And

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Speaker 1: yet it never seems to get smaller. Um. And there's

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Speaker 1: a reason for that, isn't there? Yeah? There is uh

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Speaker 1: the numbers that we just named. If they're not troubling,

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Speaker 1: or if there are things you've heard before and it's

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Speaker 1: easy to shake off, think of it this way, this time,

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Speaker 1: five years from now, that may well be referred to

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Speaker 1: as the good old days. Uh, when it was when

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Speaker 1: only of the trash in the world's ocean was some

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Speaker 1: form of plastic. Right now, as we speak, every second,

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Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty thousand plastic bags are getting used

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Speaker 1: by someone somewhere. That means that each year, just every

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Speaker 1: single lookout under year, five trillion plastic bags new ones

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Speaker 1: are made. And this means this leads experts to project

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Speaker 1: that pound for pound, by the weight of the plastic

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Speaker 1: and the oceans alone will outweigh the mass of all

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Speaker 1: the fish not hyperbole. Literally, all of the fish dell

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Speaker 1: weigh less than the trash and that's particularly puzzling to

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Speaker 1: my mind when you imagine the weight of a plastic bag.

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Speaker 1: But think about that, Just picture that scene American beauty.

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Speaker 1: You know that that that lighter than air plastic bag

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Speaker 1: just wafting through the ease, you know. Um. And one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that plastic bags, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: most people know that plastic bags are not recyclable. Um

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Speaker 1: it is because in order to recycle a thing, they

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Speaker 1: have to weigh enough for you to actually be able

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Speaker 1: to kind of chop them up into little bits. And

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Speaker 1: can you imagine trying to chase around the gazillion plastic

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Speaker 1: bags and some sort of centrifuge like it just wouldn't

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Speaker 1: wouldn't work. So plastic bags are like the least recyclable

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Speaker 1: and most popular plastic item. Maybe that's not exactly accurate,

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Speaker 1: but that certainly feels like it's up there. Um it's

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Speaker 1: it's very troubling with those numbers, you know, especially considering

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Speaker 1: how light they are. Yeah, and let's twist the knife

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Speaker 1: a little bit, you know what kind of shows those

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Speaker 1: folks that's the optimistic projection that what they really saying

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Speaker 1: is by it could happen sooner than that And Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's a shame that environmental concerns have been sort of politicized,

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Speaker 1: or they've been appropriated for different people's agendas, whatever those

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Speaker 1: agendas may be. But if you look at the numbers,

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Speaker 1: which no no ideology, then you should be concerned. This

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Speaker 1: growth is part of an accelerating pattern. In nine fifty,

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Speaker 1: the world, the whole shebang made about two million tons

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Speaker 1: of plastic per year, and since then annual production has

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Speaker 1: increased two hundred times two d cks. Uh So, just

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Speaker 1: in twenty for example, the world was making not two

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Speaker 1: million tons, but three d eighty one million tons. Just

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Speaker 1: for comparison, three eighty one million tons is about the

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Speaker 1: same weight as two thirds of the entire human population.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask. I mean, obviously,

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Speaker 1: in part this this has to be a product of

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Speaker 1: population growth, but not to that degree. How do you

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Speaker 1: go from two million tons a year to three hundred

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Speaker 1: eighty million tons a year um? Even given explosion and

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Speaker 1: population It seems to me that it means that the

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Speaker 1: production and usage of plastic has gone completely unchecked um.

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Speaker 1: And no one's really thinking about the future at all. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just not for a long time they weren't and just

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Speaker 1: works so well for so many things. Will will explore

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Speaker 1: this too, uh. We it should go without saying, but

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Speaker 1: we have to point it out. The plastic game is

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Speaker 1: not distributed equally. The biggest producers of plastic uh, plastic

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Speaker 1: waste at least are the wealthy countries, just because because

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Speaker 1: of consumer culture, because of economic booms. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you look at the US and so an agency the

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Speaker 1: e p A reports that Americans generate thirty five point

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Speaker 1: seven million tons of plastic in one year. And as

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Speaker 1: we pointed out the microplastics episode UH study show that

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Speaker 1: nowadays plastic particles might be inside your body before your board.

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Speaker 1: I think they might go through your or mother and

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Speaker 1: go across the barrier and get into while you're in

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Speaker 1: the womb. What long term effects will that have? People

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Speaker 1: aren't too sure. That's the scary part. And before it

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Speaker 1: sounds like we're dumping on plastic. Yes, it's like any

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Speaker 1: other technology, at least until the day we get to AI.

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Speaker 1: Plastic has no moral compass. It's just like a gun.

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Speaker 1: It's just like I'll pop it. Those are two very

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Speaker 1: different examples. It can do wonderful and terrible things depending

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Speaker 1: on how it's used I've definitely pictured somebody using a

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Speaker 1: pop it as a bludgeoning device. Yeah, it's a menacing toy. Actually,

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Speaker 1: if you think about it, it could be psychological warfare.

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Speaker 1: I think some of those toys, when the kids get

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Speaker 1: really into them, can probably do things to their parents

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Speaker 1: or caretaker's minds. But this is okay. So as think

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Speaker 1: of an analogy, Tell me when you think of this,

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Speaker 1: Plastic in a way is a lot like advertising. You

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Speaker 1: are almost certain to be unaware of how much of

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Speaker 1: it surrounds you, how much you touch on a daily basis,

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Speaker 1: how much you just see passing by, how much you encounter,

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Speaker 1: and if you want to be incredibly depressed or profoundly

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Speaker 1: impressed or both at the same time, take our old

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Speaker 1: advertising game and apply it to plastic. Wake up, start

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Speaker 1: a clock for twenty four hours, and start trying to

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Speaker 1: count every example of plastic you see. I don't know

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Speaker 1: about you, guys. I don't want to speak for everyone,

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Speaker 1: but I am personally so convinced that this is an

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Speaker 1: impossible task that I you have my word, if you

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Speaker 1: can accurately count all the plastic you see over a

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Speaker 1: period of twenty four hours, right to us, and I

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Speaker 1: will send you a prize. I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: going to be fancy, but it might because I doubt

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Speaker 1: anyone can actually do this. Will it be made of plastic?

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Speaker 1: I was gonna win. I'm gonna win this. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: go out and I'm gonna go camping and I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: stand my tent for twenty four hours and I'm just tent. Right,

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Speaker 1: You're definitely going to get a Dakota ring from men

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Speaker 1: and Dakota Rick. Yes, Uh, it's I mean, it is

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Speaker 1: really tough, and it has a lot in common with advertising,

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Speaker 1: and there's you know, to be fair. Um, if we

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Speaker 1: look at the pros and cons, plastic has helped people

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Speaker 1: accomplish so many things. It's saved countless lives in the

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Speaker 1: field of medicine. It's helped humans reach space that would

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Speaker 1: not have happened. But there's also no question that plastic

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Speaker 1: is universally causing profound harm to just about every thing

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Speaker 1: human or not on the planet except for the bank

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Speaker 1: accounts of several very powerful corporations. They're making out like gangbusters,

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Speaker 1: places like SABIC, the Saudi Arabia Basic Industries Corporation. Money

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Speaker 1: hand over fist, you know, they're the largest single manufacturer plastic,

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Speaker 1: but most of the other you know, like the Captain

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Speaker 1: Planet villain types are also in on the game dw

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Speaker 1: X on mobile, you know, all the it's all the

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Speaker 1: good ones. Uh. And we know that it's despite the

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Speaker 1: statements that you see from international organizations and in g

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Speaker 1: o s and even these companies themselves, we know the

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Speaker 1: pattern is set to accelerate even further. We're looking at

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Speaker 1: a Jacob here. This is exponential growth. Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 1: So if we look at and we look at the

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Speaker 1: global plastic market size. Okay, so it was five hundred

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Speaker 1: and two billion US dollars and then four years later

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Speaker 1: in it was five hundred and seventy nine point seven

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Speaker 1: billion dollars. So that's a nice little jump in the billions.

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Speaker 1: But here's the deal. Uh, the this global plastic market

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Speaker 1: will likely increase to seven hundred and fifty billion dollars

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Speaker 1: are a little bit more actually by t and that's insane. Yeah. Uh,

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Speaker 1: eighth largest industry in the U, US, the world's richest country,

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Speaker 1: and every day around one million people in the US

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Speaker 1: alone wake up and they work on plastic. And they're

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Speaker 1: not bad people at all. It's their job. In fact,

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Speaker 1: there's some of the smartest people around. Uh. The this

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Speaker 1: argument about what to do, this dilemma is often bogged

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Speaker 1: down in politics ideological tribalism. You know, you might have

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Speaker 1: someone who's more on the conservative side saying like, uh,

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Speaker 1: these uh it's an outdatd phrase, but like these tree

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Speaker 1: hugging hippies are choosing you know, obscure amphibians over actual

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Speaker 1: human beings who need this job to survive. But that's

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Speaker 1: so misleading when it comes to plastics, civilization, us making

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Speaker 1: the show you listening, everybody is in a crabs in

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Speaker 1: a bucket scenario. I mean, this is the same species

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Speaker 1: that can't stop killing itself over things like religion or

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Speaker 1: resources or in name disagreements over the dumbest things, like

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Speaker 1: this is a species that has gone to war over

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Speaker 1: one guy's ear. It's true story. It's called the War

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Speaker 1: of Jenkins Ear. You can check it out on Ridiculous

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Speaker 1: History wherever you find your favorite podcast. Always be closing

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Speaker 1: so you get the cot. Yeah, but there's no, there's

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Speaker 1: not really if you look at realistically, as as terrified

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Speaker 1: as it maybe to admit, there's no plausible chance of

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Speaker 1: this species cooperating long enough to right the ship of

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Speaker 1: humanity before it sinks irrevocably into the deep waters of extinction.

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Speaker 1: But what if, what if somehow people did manage to

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Speaker 1: walk back from the precipice, What would the world actually

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Speaker 1: look like without plastic? We're gonna pause for a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsors. Uh, maybe we can come back and

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Speaker 1: count some of the plastic stuff we found, but we'll

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Speaker 1: see when we return. Here's where it gets crazy. All right,

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Speaker 1: did you guys counting plastic things? I mean I don't

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Speaker 1: stopped counting and counting ever since we started. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: free easily, just like in my purview, just on my desk,

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Speaker 1: just not even moving, rolling the chair anywhere. No. Yeah, man, guys,

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Speaker 1: before we get back into this, I just want to

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Speaker 1: make a point here. I guess that maybe we haven't

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Speaker 1: hit enough in this episode yet. And it just it

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Speaker 1: reminded me when we mentioned Saudi Arabia Basic Industries Corporation,

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Speaker 1: just that the plastics industry is inextricably connected to the

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Speaker 1: petroleum industry, to gasoline, and just how you know, where

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Speaker 1: we find ourselves with plastic use, we also find ourselves

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Speaker 1: with oil usage. And like what those those are the

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Speaker 1: effects that both of these industries are having, or maybe

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Speaker 1: this one industry is having on the planet and on

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Speaker 1: the human species. I just want to like make sure

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Speaker 1: that's in the back of our minds as we're going

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Speaker 1: throughout the rest of this episode. Yeah, well said, and

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Speaker 1: it'll be in uh, it'll be on the front of

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Speaker 1: your mind at the end of this episode, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah they are. There are fingers on a hand. Um.

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Speaker 1: And with the question we left at the break, what

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Speaker 1: would happen if the world what would the world actually

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Speaker 1: look like without plastic? Well, you know, put it bluntly,

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Speaker 1: let's just rip off the band aid. Also with plastic,

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Speaker 1: things would suck. They would suck so bad and so hard,

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Speaker 1: and they would suck for a long long time. It

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Speaker 1: would be, there's no way around it, a hard cut

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Speaker 1: off on plastic use. First, it would cripple industries and

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Speaker 1: economies alike. The Great Depression would be nothing compared to

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Speaker 1: this innovation, and countless areas of research would crying to

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Speaker 1: a halt. And there's honestly a good chance a lot

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Speaker 1: of that innovation would not pick up again for decades

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Speaker 1: or maybe even centuries. That's the level the impact we're talking,

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Speaker 1: think about how much it would affect the price of things.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's plastic is used as a cheap alternative

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Speaker 1: to maybe more durable, long lasting materials. Are heavier materials,

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Speaker 1: like all of the side panels you know, and um

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Speaker 1: dash boards and things in like, you know, affordable mid

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Speaker 1: level cars are all made of plastic. Everything's housed in plastic.

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Speaker 1: It's not until you start getting up into the like

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Speaker 1: super bespoke kind of higher end cars that things start

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Speaker 1: to be made out of wood or metal. You know. Um,

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Speaker 1: it would just it would like make so many things

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Speaker 1: not affordable for so many people instantly. Oh yeah, worse

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Speaker 1: than we might assume. This is one of those things

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Speaker 1: where the stuff we're gonna say might be might sound alarming,

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Speaker 1: but unfortunately, the odds are we will be vindicated tending

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Speaker 1: on believers sooner than we'd like, like the like think

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Speaker 1: about this. So it's difficult historically to pinpoint the exact

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Speaker 1: moment when a monumental global change occurs. So for some folks,

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Speaker 1: the way forward is grassroots. It's kind of a each one,

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Speaker 1: teach one approach. If you're familiar with the saying, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people in my mind, noble people

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Speaker 1: who have either minimized their use of plastic or cut

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Speaker 1: it from their lives almost entirely. That is definitely a

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Speaker 1: herculean effort, But it also, at the same time points

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Speaker 1: out one of the biggest problems with addressing this global

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Speaker 1: plastic addiction. Class. You know what, I hear about a

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Speaker 1: lot on the local news programs, Because as fringe as

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Speaker 1: it may sound for me to point this out, there

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Speaker 1: are some things that you know, mainstream news media is

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Speaker 1: is totally fine not mentioning in these conversations, and class

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Speaker 1: is one of those. It's one of the number one

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Speaker 1: complicating factors in a war on plastic. Any attempt to

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Speaker 1: argue otherwise is either incorrect or it is purposely misleading.

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Speaker 1: Like imagine, it reminds me of the like take the

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Speaker 1: situation of the brick countries, right the Brazil's, Russia's, India's,

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Speaker 1: China's there as emergent superpowers. In the case of China,

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Speaker 1: for like a century, China, like any other place on

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Speaker 1: the planet, suffered long term consequences of plastic pollution from

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Speaker 1: other countries, and it was a side effect of enormous

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Speaker 1: economic boons for these countries. So if you look at

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Speaker 1: it in very simple and real terms, China was paying

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Speaker 1: the price for this progress and receiving no benefits from it.

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Speaker 1: There's a similar argument with um, what you could call

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Speaker 1: the climate change conuntrum, just because alliteration is dope. And

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Speaker 1: you know, countries like China definitely have a valid argument

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Speaker 1: when they point out that industrialized nations raped the benefits

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Speaker 1: from things like coal, Um, so why shouldn't they be

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Speaker 1: able to do the same. It's not fair And then

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Speaker 1: I would tend to agree with that on paper, um,

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Speaker 1: at least from their perspective, you know. But it's also

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Speaker 1: it's sort of a do as I say, not as

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Speaker 1: I do approach, and I think that always kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, leaves a bad taste in countries mouths. Uh. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, China's argument as they should have access to

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Speaker 1: the same strategy also putting politics aside, just objectively, this

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Speaker 1: approach restricts their access to further economic success. Um. It's

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Speaker 1: not even to say they don't care about pollution or

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Speaker 1: they're completely callous about these things. It's just kind of

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Speaker 1: like a you know, well you you you know, other

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Speaker 1: countries have laid the groundwork to where we are now

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Speaker 1: and if you've just been a little more responsible about

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Speaker 1: it than maybe we wouldn't be in this position or

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Speaker 1: something like them. Yeah, it's like, uh, let's freestyle, uh

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Speaker 1: imperfect analogy. Okay, Let's say let's say there's like a

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Speaker 1: marathon and the people who ran the race and got

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Speaker 1: first place, uh, didn't actually run. They had a car

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Speaker 1: and they drove to the finished slide they said we won,

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Speaker 1: and uh, You're like, well, we want to also winners.

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Speaker 1: And they say, okay, but you can't drive a car,

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Speaker 1: right and and and uh and and but if you

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Speaker 1: get a better time than us, will say one, it's

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Speaker 1: just we used a car. That's like that argument is

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Speaker 1: valid from their perspective. Is important to think about that.

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Speaker 1: And then if you take it back to the individual

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Speaker 1: to like microscopic or microplastic level, being able to live

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Speaker 1: a life like this without interacting and plastic requires a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of privilege an individual agency. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: like when people say like, hey, why um, why do

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Speaker 1: actors in Blockbuster action movies look so in shape? They

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Speaker 1: have a team of people who helped mold them into

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Speaker 1: that personal trainers, dietitians, uh, probably therapist hopefully therapist as well. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it's like how eating healthy requires privilege in terms

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Speaker 1: of money or time. You have to be able to

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Speaker 1: pay someone for that stuff. You have to pay a

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Speaker 1: premium for healthy food, or you have to have the

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Speaker 1: time to figure out and how to pre parent yourself

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Speaker 1: and do it consistently. So there is there is privilege

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Speaker 1: on every single level that impacts this conversation. But if

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Speaker 1: we try to stick to optimism as best we can,

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Speaker 1: just as a thought experiment, let's give it a go.

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Speaker 1: Let's say there's some unprecedented miracle which is also simultaneously

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Speaker 1: a disaster. Literally everybody, same day, same hour, said we're gonna, um,

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Speaker 1: We're at least gonna just stop making plastic. Okay. Uh,

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Speaker 1: let's assume civilization doesn't collapse. What would happen. First, The

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Speaker 1: environment would love us, you know, the Smoky the bears,

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Speaker 1: the ranger ricks, the I think in the UK it's

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Speaker 1: a frog, not Smoky the bear. But all the animals

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Speaker 1: that you can think of, their lives would get better. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Life for oil companies would go down the tube would

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Speaker 1: be terrible because, as we point out, plastic is a

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Speaker 1: petroleum product. In fact, big oil. If you want to

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Speaker 1: just use that name to group all these producers together. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they're well aware of the push for alternative power for vehicles.

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Speaker 1: You know, they knew that Ford was making an electric

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Speaker 1: f one fifty way before the public. And you know,

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Speaker 1: they know all this stuff. They hang out with each other.

427
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: So their idea is that plastic will become plastic use

428
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: will accelerate such that that replaces the money they see

429
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: themselves losing with straight up oil and gas. But it's

430
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: likely that these corporations, if this thing happened, they would

431
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: use their political influence to kind of phase in a

432
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: manufacturing ban until they could find a new replacement or

433
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: a series of alternatives that could be made around the

434
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: same cost. That's the big important thing for them. And

435
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: without an alternative in place, losing plastic is an existential

436
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: threat to these companies. There's a great article that came

437
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: out last your Vox called big Oils Hopes are pinned

438
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: on plastics. It won't end well. Hats off to you

439
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 1: David Roberts, the author of that article, because you know

440
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: he calls him out and do recommend reading it. So

441
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: so that would happen. And second, if you're listening to

442
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: this show, to date, there's a disturbingly high chance you

443
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: would lose your job even if you have nothing to

444
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: do with the plastics industry. So even like in in

445
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: the best case scenario that you know, the world slowly

446
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: weans itself off of petroleum products as a fuel, this

447
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: is always going to be their fallback at least that's

448
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 1: the way the business model is set up, right, Yes, yeah,

449
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: that's the that's the idea. The idea is that you

450
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: can as the profits of oil for gas and fuel

451
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: diminish than the profits for using that same petroleum to

452
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: create plastic rises, and the numbers are there. It's not

453
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: a bad for them to make from their perspective, it's

454
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: bad for the planet. It's it's like bad for you

455
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: if you're hearing this, and it maybe it's a silly question,

456
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: but I mean, you know, petroleum is not a completely

457
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: you know, endless resource. I mean, it is not considered

458
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: her it's a it's a non renewable resource. You can

459
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: tap out an oil well, I mean, you just keep

460
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: looking forward elsewhere. But there is gonna come a day

461
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: or we're not gonna be able to get it out

462
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: of the ground anymore, right, especially if we keep you know,

463
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: pulling it out willy nilly the way we are m

464
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: That's why stuff like nesting with shale and fracking enjoyed

465
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: a renaissance of sorts because the cost of oil she

466
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: had a threshold where it was profitable to try to

467
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: pull it out of the ground that way. And that's

468
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: what it all goes down to. As as silly as

469
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: it sounds, it goes down to money. So yeah, massive

470
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: rise and unemployment unfortunately a given because these folks who

471
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: would lose their jobs don't have to be working in

472
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: the plastics industry. They have to be working on something

473
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: that needs plastics somewhere at any point in their job.

474
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: So for a lot of people, that's gonna be bad news. Third,

475
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: there would be this huge waste management program, be on

476
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: a scale of something that has never existed before. Stay

477
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: in your laying Pyramids of Giza. There's a new impressive

478
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: human initiative in town. Um because make managing to stop

479
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: making new plastic is not enough. It's the plastic that's

480
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: already here that is killing people. Recycling would have to skyrocket.

481
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: The I was thinking about this when I realized I

482
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: need to clean my room. Imagine having to clean all

483
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: the world's oceans and the glaciers and Mount Everest, oh

484
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: and under the South Pole because the plastics there too,

485
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: you would like, there's not a way to clean it

486
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: all um and then forth. And this is something that

487
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: you don't see talked a lot about on the environmental

488
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: side beforely like the people are very pro plastic free lifestyles,

489
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: which again I applaud, uh, they don't. They tend not

490
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: to point out that the fourth uh immediate consequences that

491
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people will die, and they will die

492
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: as a direct result of living in a world without plastic,

493
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: primarily due to plastics prevalence in medical equipment, very basic stuff,

494
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, forget cat scans, we're talking

495
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: about syringes, gloves, stuff like that. Plastic is very sterile,

496
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: and this means that these things, some of which have

497
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: to be single use, like syringes and so on, they

498
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: would become the rarest of pokemon. They would be much

499
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: more difficult to find them in the beginning, and be

500
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: much more expensive to use them or to buy them

501
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: if you could find them. Imagine a world in which

502
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: basic medical supplies become like a PS five in terms

503
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: of what a hassle it is to find them. And

504
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: that means again, yeah, class is one of the determining

505
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: factors now of who gets to live and who has

506
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: to go. People won't just die because of medical resources.

507
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: They'll die due to medical problems caused by the plastic

508
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: that is already here. It accumulated so quickly, we had

509
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: that Fantasiam Mickey Mouse Sorcerer's Apprentice moment. Uh. Humanity does

510
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: not fully understand the long term effects of things that. Um,

511
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: you know, Matt, you used to point this out all

512
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: the time, like B P A s right, and what

513
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: what are their effects on people? Are the plastics they're

514
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: in food that when he did admit these various harmful substances, um,

515
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: And it goes on. It's just important to know it's

516
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: not all good stuff. Prices for things will explode, you

517
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: know what they're not. Literally you will point to any

518
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: almost any consumer product and say they don't make them

519
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: like they used to because they can't. So like in

520
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: the pandemic, if you were someone who had to buy

521
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: a car, you probably saw that you whose car prices

522
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: spiked tremendously. Um, that's still happening. That's part of the

523
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: supply chain. But in this case that will apply to

524
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: everything shoes, baby toys, makeup, um, feminine hygiene products, boats, planes, dirigibles,

525
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: you name it. I don't know why we had to

526
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: throw dirigibles in there, but you know, just to give

527
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: a sense of the scope, UM and for someone for

528
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: people like us who make a living online, we would

529
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: be in a really bad spot. In many ways, the

530
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: world would revolve back into life as it was in

531
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: the seventies. Electronics are going to be a real pickle

532
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: because plastic is great for this stuff, you know what

533
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: I mean. It's like you said, it's ductile, it's easily molded,

534
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: you can do you can make really precise stuff with it,

535
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: and it's also non conductive. Well, for all the reasons

536
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: we've just laid out here, it makes a reasonable person

537
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: imagine I would argue, well, what if we hepped plastic

538
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: manufacturing for things like cars, for medical use, for you know,

539
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: the most important things, the technologies UM and the big, heavy,

540
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: expensive things that don't get replaced all the time. What

541
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: if we just start removing from the system anything that's

542
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: a single use plastic item or packaging or you know,

543
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: the stuff that just gets thrown away and becomes trash

544
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: almost immediately. What if we just get rid of that,

545
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: we keep the other stuff, would we would be be okay?

546
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: But doesn't not include the medical stuff that we talked

547
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: about that's so important. Well, that stuff comes in plastic containers,

548
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: like you know, with the you know, like a single

549
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: use syringe comes in a little plastic thing. When that

550
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: you rip off the top and then throw that away. Well, yeah,

551
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: so that's that was an innovation to protect humans from

552
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: possibly hurt you know, hurting themselves by causing infections. Right

553
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: because if you imagine back in the day, the syringe

554
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: was a piece of metal and glass, right that that

555
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: was reused over and over and over again. And if

556
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: if you imagine somehow going back to that system where

557
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: there's just an emphasis on uh, cleaning the tools thoroughly

558
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: between every usage, maybe there's a future for that kind

559
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: of stuff, But there are so many things pieces of

560
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: plastic you used has been already pointed out within the

561
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: medical industry that it would be I think impossible to

562
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: go back, especially given just the more advanced stuff, the

563
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: the advanced tools, you would have to continue using plastic

564
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: for them totally, things like caffiners, you know, I mean,

565
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: like so many. And that's the thing, Like all of

566
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: this stuff is required to be able to scale a production,

567
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: you know, of of any type. You know what I mean,

568
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: Like if we were still using glass and metal and

569
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: ceramic and all that, it's just much more difficult to

570
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: scale because you can't just poop them out, you know,

571
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: in a in a machine. I mean you can, but

572
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: it's just a lot more costly, and you can't make

573
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: quite as many of them. Um. It's because creating a

574
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: couple of versus. That's what I think of when I

575
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: hear the words scale. I usually think of scaling something

576
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: as just making something, making as many of a profitable

577
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: thing as you possibly can for as cheap as possible,

578
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: and that's gonna up you know, your profits like significantly. Um.

579
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: And as we know, nobody like there's a line I

580
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: always think of from Mr. Show whereas somebody like there's

581
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 1: a there's these film executives and it's like they've greenlt

582
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: this movie about coupons and and it's gonna tank. And

583
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: this is executive says, I swear to God, if I

584
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: have to go from being super rich just rich, I'm

585
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: gonna kill myself. That's that's that like kind of you know,

586
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 1: personifies that thinking you can't go backwards. You can't go backwards. Yeah,

587
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: like like your same Matt, you brought up a wonderful point.

588
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: People who are on whatever side of this argument usually

589
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: tend to end up proposing a phased, nuanced approach, and

590
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: then that approach typically focuses on disposable or single use plastic.

591
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: Some countries are doing this through market forces, like in Bangladesh,

592
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: plastic bags are banned they got the g t FO order,

593
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: or in places like parts of Europe and places like China,

594
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: people are charged for disposable bags. In the case of China,

595
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: that program started in two thousand eight and it's already

596
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: reduced the amount of plastic bags in the country by

597
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: that's nothing to sneeze at. They do that in California. Yeah, yeah,

598
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: in California did that as well. Um, it's going state

599
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 1: by state in the US. But the weird thing is

600
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: that there definitely at some point becomes a conflict of

601
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: interest for companies because think about it, if your SAPIC

602
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: or a subsidiary thereof, and and you go from making

603
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: trillions of plastic bags to making a smaller number of

604
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: reusable containers, than what what you're doing is essentially leaving

605
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: money on the table, because every customer who would have

606
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: just kept getting bags, whether they're a business or an individual,

607
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: now they just buy them once and they and maybe

608
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 1: maybe they by by them again a few years later

609
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: as things break down. But that's why people want a

610
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: nuance thing and people and institutions and NGOs or at

611
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: least signaling the intent to do something. The question is

612
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: how sincere are these attempts, and if they are sincere,

613
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: will they be sufficient? And that's where another conspiracy comes

614
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: into play. So I propose we take a break for

615
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsors, uh, and then we'll return

616
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: to crack down on the genuine conspiracy holding humanity in

617
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: such a dire straight. Okay, here's the problem, quiet, part

618
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: out loud. I feel like everybody knows this. The problem

619
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 1: is that the people and the organizations with the most

620
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: power here, the relatively small group of entities that are

621
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: capable of addressing this problem in a meaningful way, are

622
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: also the ones making the most money off the system

623
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: as it is. And to be soup like crystal clear transparent,

624
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: we're not talking about people who are working on oil rigs.

625
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: And we're not talking about people working in plastic bag

626
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 1: factory or people making plastic cutlery for takeout and picnics.

627
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: We're talking about the people in the institutions that own

628
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: those oil rigs, the people in the institutions that own

629
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: those factories. They spent a great amount of time and money,

630
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: first accurately predicting this problem. They knew about it, and

631
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: then they spent they spent some time covering it up

632
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: or trying to spin it to it their advantage. In

633
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: corporate parlance, the phrases getting in front of it. That's

634
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: what they tried to do. They tried to get in

635
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: front of it. And there's a playbook for these situations.

636
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: It is common a cross industries and it is so

637
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: simple and it is so effective. It's just switching out

638
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: that revenue stream. Like R. J. Reynolds we did recently,

639
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: Uh I think it was strange. News segment talked about

640
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: how it was R. J. Reynolds right who said they

641
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: supported the UK ban on tobacco right, And there was

642
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: even talk of one of the big tobacco manufacturers limiting

643
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: their production of combustible cigarettes. And they wouldn't have done

644
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: that on day one. Heavens, we've discovered that cigarettes are

645
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: bad for the health of our citizenry. Shut it down, boys, No,

646
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: they bided their time and downplayed it until they had

647
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,439
Speaker 1: a viable alternative. They could also make tons of money

648
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: on a k A vaping Yes, exactly, exactly. We need

649
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 1: to hit that point again. They only did this once

650
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: they knew they could generate income some other way, and

651
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: they did it with a disposable plastic thing. But I'm

652
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: holding in my hand right now that gets used by

653
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: millions of people. Probably I don't know the exact numbers

654
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: of people who use these kinds of disposable vaping things,

655
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: like myself part of the problem here, but this is

656
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: part well. But I'm just saying this particular thing, this one,

657
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: the jewel one, all the others. It's becoming a massive

658
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: plastics problem. Yeah. And this, this strategy, this kind of

659
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 1: transference of income strategy plays out across multiple industries. It's

660
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: applied to the world of plastics as well. Mark our words.

661
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: As soon as a one to one inexpensive alternative to

662
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: plastic is found, it will probably become proprietary and whomever

663
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 1: is lucky enough to own the rights to that material

664
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: will immediately press their advantage. They will end up in

665
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: pursuit of profits, maybe swinging the needle to make the

666
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 1: world a better place. And it's like desperation makes strange bedfellows. Man,

667
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: imagine be one of those environmentalists who is like, uh,

668
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: now I have to go to a rally for Dow Chemical. Yeah.

669
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: That's the thing though, because they'll masquerade it out as

670
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: some like you know, grandstanding, like doing something about it,

671
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, stance which is under horses. You know that

672
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: we know how long they've known they don't actually care.

673
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: But then they'll like you know, spend a bunch of

674
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: time workshopping the language around their big pivot, and then

675
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: they'll you know, you know, trot it out there as

676
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: some sort of benevolent act of good. Yeah. And we're

677
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: not saying I don't think any of us are saying that. Um,

678
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 1: the people working in these companies or even the people

679
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: at the top, are necessarily evil individuals, and I think

680
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 1: some of these efforts are in good faith, you know,

681
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: like um, Matt and the research earlier you have pointed

682
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: out Coca Cola had a plan to recycle a can

683
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: and the women in can for every can they created

684
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: by Um, that seems like a good faith effort, But

685
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: make no mistake, there is not a for profit company

686
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: in the world that would do something like this if

687
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: it meant it would damage their profits, you know what

688
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: I mean. There is always a calculation at play. Yeah,

689
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: I think the Coke thing was only they would recycle everything,

690
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: but then by twenty thirty they would create all of

691
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: their products with recycled plastic, which is like, yeah, that's

692
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: a great idea, sure, And like, didn't Legos say they

693
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: were going to pivot away from using plastic bags and

694
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: their packaging obviously not you know, away from using plastic

695
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: in their legos. And then McDonald's I think, is going

696
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: to start using cardboard as their toys, make them little

697
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: puzzles or assemblable you know, do dads, rather than plastic,

698
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: because that's a big drain as well. Um. And again

699
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 1: I'm not saying these efforts I think are are cool

700
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 1: and obviously there's some goodwill behind them and prs obviously positive.

701
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure someone in the company does care and and

702
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: and think that's a good idea, you know, big picture.

703
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: But I'm just a little jaded. I tend to think

704
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: these are just kind of like marketing stunts rather than

705
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: them actually giving it. Yeah, unfortunately, that's they're doing what

706
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: they were designed to do, the same way that fish swim. Uh.

707
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: That's what That's why company or for profit corporation exists.

708
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: But here's the other thing. If you were to go

709
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: into the back room of some of these executive offices

710
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: and you were just say, hey, you know, just between us,

711
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 1: what do you think the chances of getting off plastic

712
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: are really when what you would find is that yet,

713
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,439
Speaker 1: because not all plastics are created equally, they're viable alternatives

714
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: for some, but until that economy of scale kicks in,

715
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: the price is going to be a big problem for

716
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: these companies. So the secret is the best way to

717
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: solve this dilemma. The holy grail, if there were a

718
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: holy grail for this quest, is not to find an

719
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: alternative for these various kinds of plastic in their in state,

720
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: but rather to find an alternative to the oil used

721
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: to create them in the first place. That's that's the

722
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: spice in this dune universe. And who knows what it is,

723
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: you know, knowing the humors of humanity as we do, Um,

724
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: how messed up would it be if it was water.

725
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: And they're like, okay, we figured out somehow, there's some

726
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: sci fi chemical shenanigans. We've figured out a way to

727
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: make basically anything that you can make with plastic from water.

728
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 1: It has to be fresh water, so people might be

729
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,760
Speaker 1: thirsty it though. That's how messed up is that? Okay?

730
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 1: So how important is this? Having control over this whatever,

731
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: this thing, this holy grail would be would be the

732
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: equivalent of becoming the first country or company to wield

733
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: nuclear power. And yeah, and that might sound a little

734
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: like hyperbolic, right, but without being alarmists, that is the

735
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: level of impact we're talking about. And when this thing

736
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: is discovered and whatever these things are, the world will

737
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: again be irrevocably changed. If that is, the technology goes

738
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: public and isn't purposely suppressed. Shout out to the National

739
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: Invention Secrecy Act. Check that one out if you want

740
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,720
Speaker 1: to be a lot of not fun at parties. That's

741
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: that's the reality here. While this bickering and this research

742
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: continues to play out, the clock is ticking. And if

743
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: you look past the noise the theater of domestic politics,

744
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: those glossy PR presentations and p s A S. The

745
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: facts are undeniable. If these power systems are not dismantled,

746
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: if these conspiracies are not busted, there is a strong

747
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: possibility that we won't be talking about a world with

748
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: out plastic for long. We'll be talking instead about a

749
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: world without humans. I don't want to sound preachy, but

750
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: that's like, that's that's where we are at. These companies

751
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: have to be incentivized by profit or their hands forced

752
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: by undeniable disaster that affects the wealthy as much as

753
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,959
Speaker 1: it affects the poor. And um, yeah, I just don't

754
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: I don't know where it would I don't know where

755
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: it would go. It's quite a pickle, it feels like

756
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 1: to me. And I am not somebody who knows anything

757
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,959
Speaker 1: about any of this and can't recommend any of these things.

758
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: But if you had to increase the price of products

759
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: overall because of the phasing out of plastics, the only

760
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: way to really solve that thing without the version you're

761
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: talking about ben where some other alternative that is like

762
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: at that same price point would be to raise all

763
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: ships by somehow instituting universal income in some way for

764
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: every person on the planet to make sure they can

765
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 1: afford the absolute necessities and even then, I mean, there

766
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: are ways to go about that, but they're not very

767
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 1: fun for everyone. Yeah, the people who they're not fun

768
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: for the people who would have the sufficient power to

769
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: fight back against it. So it really does feel like

770
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: we're in that dire of a situation at this point. Well,

771
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: there there is another possibility, right while plastics are still around. Uh.

772
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: Elon Musk just came out and suggested to folks who

773
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: want to go to Mars they can't afford the projected

774
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: one million dollar price tag for the trip, He said, well,

775
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: you could just fly to Mars and maybe work it

776
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: off once you get there, go to join a company

777
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: town Mars as an indentured servant. Yeah, worth more things change, man,

778
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: You'll only owe as much as you know, an above

779
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: average person makes in their lifetime. It's fine, fine, right, Uh?

780
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: This is so will will the world be without plastics?

781
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: Probably not? Um and and a lot And we pointed

782
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: this out. I'm really glad we point this out on

783
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: our last episode. A ton of time went into trying

784
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: to convince individual consumers that they were the problem and

785
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: we're part of a problem. But the majority of that

786
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: waste is not necessarily coming from you. It's like blaming

787
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: the person who just has a job on an oil rig,

788
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. That person is not big oil,

789
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: They're just doing a job. And so there was one

790
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: statement we could end on here that comes from Roland

791
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: guy Or, a professor at the Britains School of Environmental

792
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: Science and Management at the University California, Santa Barbara. He's

793
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: pretty bleak, guys. Just to let you know before we

794
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: hit it, he says, you can't just leave this up

795
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 1: to households. They have no chance. Plastic producers should share

796
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: a significant part of the responsibility at this point. I

797
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: don't see that happening without policy intervention. So the politicians

798
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 1: have to get involved. The corporations have to say yes,

799
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: if every person you know, uh, did there level best

800
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: to separate plastic from their lives. Is a serious question

801
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: about how much of a difference it would actually make.

802
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: It's not saying you shouldn't do it, it's just saying

803
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 1: that's not going to stop the current operation we're in. Well, yeah,

804
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: if companies are still producing small disposable plastic things they

805
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: just sit on shelves at stores, they're going to be

806
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: thrown away at some point. And the the only think,

807
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: the only good thing is that if consumers aren't buying

808
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: those things and they sit on the shelf for long enough,

809
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: the whatever store that is won't order more, which means

810
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: there won't be a demand from the company to buy more.

811
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: So there that is a route. I mean, it's not

812
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 1: the most viable one necessarily, but it is a route.

813
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 1: If you stop the demand, then hopefully they'll stop the supply. Yeah. Well, uh,

814
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: we want to hear what you think, folks. Uh, If

815
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 1: you I will be so impressed. I think we will

816
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: all be so impressed if there is anyone in the

817
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: audience today who manages to count every piece of plastic

818
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: in their normal life without cheating. I don't know. No,

819
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 1: you know, it's so tough. If you do the Matt

820
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: Matt strike and get away with it and go in

821
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: a tent bully for you, that's I think that's good.

822
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: But I mean there's the under the hood stuff, you

823
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 1: know what I mean. You know, you're not even gonna

824
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: have a sense sense of of how much there is

825
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: like inside my monitor, inside my computer, inside my guitar amplifier,

826
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: you know, inside this MIDI controller in front of me.

827
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 1: I mean, each each there's like good dozens of buttons

828
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: on and each one is made of like a polymer

829
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: rubber type situation. Um, the chassis is steel, but inside

830
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: you know it's gonna be just dozens and dozens of

831
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: plastic parts. But I can't even see. Yeah, and shout

832
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: out to the scientists who wrote to us after our

833
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: episode on microplastics. That was sobering and important information. But

834
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: the public is not aware of the depth of this problem. Uh.

835
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: And at this point, um, we don't civilization doesn't know

836
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: what a world without plastic would look like and how

837
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: we would get there. What are your thoughts? Can you

838
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: solve this problem? If so, we'd love to hear from you,

839
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: and we wanna we want to elevate your message. If

840
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: there's somebody listening to days like, oh yeah, yeah, I

841
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: figured it out, I know how to fix it, then

842
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: tell us, tell us immediately, Tell the world leaders, tell

843
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: the business leaders. You can start by talking to us.

844
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: We try to be easy to find online. That's right.

845
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: You can find us on the Internet and the usual

846
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: places of note. We are on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube

847
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: under the handle Conspiracy Stuff or Conspiracy Stuff Show on Instagram.

848
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 1: And while you're on the internet. Why not bop on

849
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 1: over to your podcatcher choice and leave us a favorable review,

850
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,120
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