1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,720 Speaker 1: It's like the right brothers flying their first airplane. You know, 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: the question of whether humanity could fly is settled, and 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: we forget that it was ever controversial. That's so crazy. 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: You're so right, Like the aliens are gonna come and 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: we're gonna be like, what are you talking about? This 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: is so normal. We are welcoming. Mitch Horowitz, historian of 7 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: alternative spirituality. Thank you so much for being here. Kesha, 8 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: Thank you delighted to be here. I have so many 9 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: questions for you, like about spiritualism versus spirituality. But my 10 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: first question to all my guests is do you believe 11 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: in the supernatural? Oh? Absolutely, There's no question in my 12 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: mind that all of us lead both a physical and 13 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: an extra physical existence. And the fact is, in our 14 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: generation we have proof of extra physical existence in fields 15 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 1: like neuroplasticity and psychical research and quantum theory. We understand 16 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: there are things going on around us that go beyond 17 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: just flesh and bone and motor function. We have testimony 18 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: to that effect for centuries, but nowadays there's no getting 19 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: around it. We all have an extra physical life. So 20 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: when you say extra physical, is that like metaphysical or 21 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: is that spiritual? Or like, what are you exactly referring 22 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: to like a spirit? Like we all have a spirit. 23 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: Extra physical is just my way of referring to spirituality, 24 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: whether someone believes in deity or not. Uh, there are 25 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: anomalous transfers of information in our world, what we might 26 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: call esp We feel, things, we intuit, things, we receive information, 27 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: and ways that go beyond the five senses. And if 28 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: one accepts that, then it also gets us into fields 29 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: like neuroplasticity, where we see thoughts affecting brain matter. We 30 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: actually have evidence clinical evidence plasticity. Neural plasticity is a field. Oh, 31 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: it's developed about the last twenty years or so. It's 32 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: a field in which brain scans demonstrate that your sustained 33 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: thoughts actually alter the neural pathways through which electrical impulses 34 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: travel in your brain. Your thoughts change your brain matter. 35 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: It's literally mind over matter on the molecular level. So 36 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: that's just another way in which it's demonstrable that our 37 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: thoughts make things happen, that we have in existence that 38 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: goes beyond the physical or beyond the five senses. So 39 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 1: when people say what do you mean by spirituality? I 40 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: always say I mean the extra physical. If it could 41 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: be demonstrated that we human beings all have an extra 42 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: physical existence, then it stands to reason that we have 43 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 1: a life that is beyond the scene. And then it 44 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 1: raises questions about the spirit world, the unseen world, deities, 45 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: energies that to me is spirituality. And yeah, and the 46 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: afterlife too is something that I'm fascinated by. I think 47 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: it's maybe, like, I mean, what human isn't a little 48 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,839 Speaker 1: bit fascinated by death. It's one of the only things, 49 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: if not the only thing, we're promised in life. So 50 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm super fascinated with what you think happens, like according 51 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: to science and scientific backing, Like, has anybody come up 52 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: with what happens after death? It is being studied. Nobody's 53 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: come up with anything. Definitely, nobody knows yet and we 54 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: may never you know, that just may not ever be 55 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: given to us to know. But people are engaged in 56 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: all kinds of studies, including right now, into after life survival, 57 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: extra physical survival. It's such a question, you know, I mean, 58 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: dig the us if I would say probably since about 59 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, through serious clinical experiments, we've been able 60 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: to prove in laboratory settings that certain people can transfer 61 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: information to other people in ways that go beyond the 62 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: five senses. So we typically call that esp and we 63 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: have this evidence dead to rights. It's statistical evidence as 64 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: good as any, in fact, better than any you know, 65 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: in terms of most of the stats that we have 66 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: proving the effectiveness of pharmaceuticals or what have you. So 67 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: we have that evidence, and in truth, I would say 68 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: it's controversial, but it's been so heavily reviewed that it's 69 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: dead to rights real if you can accept that, if 70 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: you can accept that we have evidence that shows that 71 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: our minds can do things that go beyond the five senses. 72 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: From there, it's really just a degree of difference to 73 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: drawing some kind of conclusions about after death survival or 74 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: the existence of what we might call a spirit or 75 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: a psyche that goes beyond the physical or an afterlife, 76 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, once you've proven that we can 77 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: do things that go beyond the five senses or the physical, 78 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: it stands to reason that there's a whole world out there, 79 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: whether it's interdimensional or afterlife or whatever one wants to 80 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: call it. That's real and that's concrete. Because I feel 81 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: that way, like I feel like I have a spirit 82 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: and a soul and a consciousness that is more than 83 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: just my physical self. But I also think it's such 84 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: a personal feeling, like, and I'm so aware that everyone 85 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: has their own connection to whatever it is or no 86 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: connection at all. And I'm good friends with a ton 87 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: of goths and atheists and also very spiritual people because 88 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm from the South, so I've been surrounded by people 89 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: of all different kinds of thought. So I just have 90 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: been absorbing at all and realizing that I think we 91 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: all have this quest to know. And I think in 92 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: reading what you wrote on Weiji boards and like kind 93 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: of the psychology behind how a Wegi board, which I 94 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: want you to explain because I'll probably butcher the research 95 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: you've done, but how a Wegi board can actually just 96 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: give you almost more insight into your subconscious Sure, everybody 97 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: seems to have a scary Weiji board story, and you know, 98 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: no one has the theory of what's happening when you 99 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: use the Wiji board. You know there have been studies done, 100 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: but nothing conclusive that shows there's some sort of psychokinetic 101 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: activity going on where we're moving the point to ourselves 102 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: without being aware of it. And let's say that's what's happening. 103 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: If that's what's occurring, it raises the question of what 104 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: weird dimensions exist within our own subconscious because people glean 105 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: things through the board that sometimes can be very threatening, 106 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: sometimes can be very unsettled, link sometimes can be quite fascinating. 107 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: There have been a whole Pulitzer winning works of poetry 108 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: channel through wigi boards. Literally I'm referring to the poet 109 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: James Merrill. There have been religions, entire religions that have 110 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: come through wigi boards. The third most popular religion in 111 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: the nation of Vietnam is called Cowdeism, and it ranks 112 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: third behind Buddhism and Catholicism as the most popular religion 113 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: in the nation that came through a wigi board in 114 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century. So, if it is our subconscious 115 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: that we're channeling, so to speak, raises the question of 116 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: what wild folds and dimensions exist within our own subconscious. 117 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: I have been fascinated with the idea of multiple dimensions, right, 118 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really interesting. Especially during quarantine and all 119 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: of this, I've really felt like, are we is this 120 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: a simulation of a simulation? Am I? In the matrix. 121 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: I don't understand, like how many dimensions are there and 122 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: how many dimensions can the human brain really comprehend, because 123 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: I've read different numbers everywhere and I didn't know if 124 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: you know the answer to that. To be honest, well, 125 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: you know, there's probably good reason to believe, and it's 126 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: really it's probably impossible for us to perceive, but there's 127 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: good reason to believe that different dimensions and different realities 128 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: are infinite are going on all around us. We experience 129 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: linear time, you know, we say, well, I have to 130 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: be somewhere at three o'clock, and that's helpful for us. 131 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: That's kind of a necessary illusion. But the fact is, 132 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: if one follows the ideas that are coming out of 133 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: quantum theory, for example, and this goes back seventy eighty years, 134 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: you know, it stands to reason that when someone takes 135 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: a measurement in a particle lab, the time and the 136 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: place and the decision to take that measurement determines what's 137 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: going to show up, because on a very very micro level, 138 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: particles occupy high an infinite number of positions there in 139 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: a wave state, and it's only when somebody takes a 140 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: measurement that they collapse into a local or particle state 141 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: that they actually appear, that they're actually really there. And 142 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: so if that's true, then at least on the particle level, 143 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: reality doesn't exist until you decide to take a measurement. 144 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: And I would submit that we're doing this all the time, Like, 145 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: what are our senses taste, touch, smell, hearing, What are 146 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: they but instruments that take measurements. So when we turn 147 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: our perspective to something, when we make a decision or 148 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: direct our attention to something, we're taking a measurement. It 149 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: stands to reason that any infinite number of things are 150 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,119 Speaker 1: possible and are going on and are real and potential, 151 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: but there's only certain ones that we measure that we 152 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: pay attention to. So we could call that interdimensionality. And 153 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: there's counter realities, infinite counter realities going on all around us, 154 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: but we don't sense them. We don't sense them. We 155 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: sense this one reality, this one moment, is one period 156 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: of time. But they're real and they're infinite. I just 157 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: think that we don't have the sensory material to take 158 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: them all in. That's so much information that's I'm trying 159 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,839 Speaker 1: to comprehend. It's kind of blowing my mind because even 160 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: just looking at looking at a situation from my perspective 161 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: versus if caught on camera is so drastically different sometimes 162 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: that even just seeing how that perspective shift can make 163 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: a reality be a non reality. So for me, that's 164 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: blown my mind to someone who's been on camera a 165 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: lot of my life where it seems to be one 166 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: thing and then it looks like a totally different thing. 167 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: And I just realized that we all have a unique 168 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: perspective and I don't know, I just like I don't 169 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: know if there are any real infinite truths because everyone 170 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: has such a unique perspective in the way that their 171 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: life has gone on also shapes that perspective, and it 172 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: shapes the story as we tell ourselves. And how can 173 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: we really ever know for seeing the same thing, the 174 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: same reality as somebody else can try to explain it 175 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: and what they're also man made. It's though, that's beautifully put. 176 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: That's beautifully put. You know, it's funny um. In the 177 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: early twentieth century, the philosopher William James made the observation 178 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: that when a mystic looks at something, when somebody who's 179 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: really spiritually sensitive or psychologically tuned in looks at something, 180 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: it's as if that person is looking at it under 181 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: a microscope and gains all kinds of information. So if 182 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: I look at a drop of water, it's just a 183 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: drop of water, But if I put it under a microscope, 184 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: there's bacteria and different organisms and cellular matter and all 185 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: kinds of things going on within that little drop of water. 186 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: But as I pan back and pan back, I get 187 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: less and less information about what's really going on. And 188 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: it's possible, it's possible that that's exactly what's going on 189 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: all the time with our senses, that if you measure 190 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: things in a particle ab or if you measure things 191 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: with a super powerful telescope, you see all these amazing 192 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: things happening in the world around us, things that bend reality, 193 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: things that are out of sync with our normal physical boundaries. 194 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: But then in the same way, when we pull the 195 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: camera back, there's a kind of information leakage, and we 196 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: see less and less of what's going on. So the 197 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: truth is we live in this really weird world. And 198 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: when people talk about ghosts or intuition or e s 199 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: P or near death experiences, to my mind, that should 200 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: all be taken really seriously, because they may be having 201 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: experiences in moments of really deep, deep sensitivity that have 202 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: something to teach us and have something to tell us, 203 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, And to dismiss that is the equivalent of 204 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: dismissing a microscope, because I don't happen to have a 205 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: microscope around right now. So you know, I could take 206 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: the position, well, that's all non sense. Sure I've heard 207 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: about it, but you know that can't be proven to 208 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: me in the moment, so I don't buy it. What 209 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: those people are providing us with is a record of 210 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: testimony and science in a certain way is validating a 211 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: lot of what they're saying. Nowadays, it's just that it's 212 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: not neat, it's it's messy. But we really need to 213 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: listen to one another. We really need to listen to 214 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: one another's experiences, because what people are experiencing maybe these 215 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: moments where they're gleaning really unique pieces of information, and 216 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: yet sometimes those things are getting dismissed. They're told, oh, 217 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: it's just delusional or what have you, And I think 218 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: something more than that is happening. Being a spiritual person, 219 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: it was one of the reasons I really wanted to 220 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: talk to you the spiritualism and how America became the 221 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: birthplace really of alternative spirituality and spiritualism is something I've 222 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: just been diving into the past year. And do you 223 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: do you have a reason on why you think America 224 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: was the place that this happened in the time that 225 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: it happened. Is it just because we discovered a new 226 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: land and it like blew all of our minds, so 227 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: we came here and realized there was something bigger than ourselves. 228 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: So everyone just started becoming more and more spiritual. Or 229 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: you think I had to do with it's like coinciding 230 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: with world events that are traumatic or both, or some 231 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: entirely it may be both, you know. I mean, going 232 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: back to the early even the six hundreds, the U. S. 233 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: Colonies were considered a safe harbor for people with radical 234 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: religious beliefs. And it's kind of ironic, and it's bitterly 235 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: ironic in a way, because slavery was going on, the 236 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: Native American culture was being destroyed, and yet at the 237 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: same time, there was a relative degree of religious freedom 238 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: in the U. S. Colonies that was unknown in the 239 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: Old World and many other parts of the world. And 240 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: so word went out fairly quickly that people who were 241 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: being persecuted for their religious beliefs in Europe, if they 242 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: made the dangerous journey across the Atlantic could reach this 243 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: so called New World where they had an opportunity to 244 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: practice their beliefs without harassment. And a lot of people 245 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: did that. So there's a lot of different sects, like 246 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: the Shakers that came here from England, all kinds of 247 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: different mystical groups that came here from Central Europe, that 248 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: we're experiencing persecution, that we're able to be left relatively 249 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: unharrassed in the New World. And this proceed were they unharrassed? 250 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: Because I remember the Salem which trials. Like as soon 251 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: as he said that, I was like, has I know 252 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: we're founded in America as a place for religious freedom 253 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: and that to be protected. Do you think that's been upheld? Well? 254 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: Dig this. You know what's interesting about Salem. The Salem 255 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: witch trials, in which dozens of people were killed in 256 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: brutal mob violence, played out in the sixteen nineties, and 257 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: as horrible as that was and as tragic as that was, 258 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: it did not really repeat in the same way that 259 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: it did in Europe. In Europe, the witch craze and 260 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: witch trials went on for centuries and centuries, and they 261 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: occurred all over Europe, Central Europe, Western Europe, Eastern Europe. 262 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: They went right up and through you know, the late 263 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds. The last witch trial was in Switzerland, and 264 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: that's well into what we think of as the Age 265 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: of Enlightenment. And in the United States, well, there was 266 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: mob violence and there was harassment. The events of Salem, 267 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: that kind of mass mob psychology in which people were 268 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: targeted for witchcraft didn't really continue, you know, it was 269 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: it was it was an anomaly, and that's one of 270 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: the remarkable things about American history. There were a lot 271 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: of crimes, and there were a lot of tragedies, and 272 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: there was definitely mob violence, but that kind of religiously 273 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: based mob violence. Those witch ages, those witch trials, they 274 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: went on for centuries in Europe, and that didn't quite 275 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: repeat in the United States. Interesting as like a woman 276 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: who loves alternative thought and different performing like rituals and 277 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: speaking openly about kind of um maybe stranger spirituality and 278 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: just being more open than picking a specific religion. I 279 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: do feel like, obviously I haven't been burned at the steak, 280 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: but I have done a past life regression where I 281 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: was told that in a past life I was burned 282 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 1: at the stake for being a woman with an opinion 283 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: that differed from the opinion of the men that were 284 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: in charge. And I like, ever since that, I feel 285 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: like this camaraderie with just women who speak their mind, 286 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: because I still feel like there are a lot of 287 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: women even in the music business, where if we say 288 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: something that's a little wacky, it's like we're just deemed crazy, 289 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: which granted we're not being burned at the stake, but 290 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: I do think we're being burned in the media. And 291 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: I've experienced that for a decade, so I still kind 292 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: of see. And I've spoken to people on the podcast, 293 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: like the leader of the Satanic Temple and his work, 294 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with their work making yeah, 295 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: making sure that religion really is separate to politics here, 296 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: I think it's just so important, and I think, especially 297 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: over the past year and a half, just seeing what's 298 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: happened politically, I do think there is religion intertwined with 299 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: our politics. Whether we like it or not, it just is. 300 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: And I'm not really sure what the solution to that is, 301 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: because I think people need religion the same way I 302 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: need spirituality, but they really are supposed to be kept separate. 303 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: And I don't know, I don't know why I'm I'm 304 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: just ranting. Really, there's a lot to this is important 305 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: and there's a lot to unpack there. You know, First 306 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: of all, the thing I love about the Satanic Temple 307 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: is other people just talk about free expression. They're actually 308 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: doing things. You know, they're using the legal system in 309 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: ways that it was intended to be used to defend 310 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: free expression, and that is good for everybody. So I 311 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: have to yeah, so I have to give you very 312 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: very serious applause to them for what they're doing. Now, 313 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: what you were saying is so important that if people 314 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: say something that's considered outside the ordinary or outside the box, 315 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: especially women, and this has historically been true, Uh, they're persecuted, 316 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: they are talked down, they are made to feel humiliated 317 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: or what have you. And one of the things I 318 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: often tell people is that when people speculate about conspiracy 319 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: theories and these powerful groups doing our occult rituals and 320 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: things like that, the people who pay for that kind 321 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: of talk are not the rich and powerful folk. They're 322 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: the helpless folk. They're the local librarian who wears a 323 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: pentagram and never did anything to anybody, and people start saying, oh, 324 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: she's a witch, we ought to consider whether we want 325 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: to renew her employment contract. Or you know, the local 326 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: school teacher, you know who who dabbles in the occult, 327 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: who's never heard a soul, who everybody can count on, 328 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: but suddenly is the topic of rumors and whisper campaigns 329 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: and so forth. So, you know, I think that when 330 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: we get into conspiracy theorizing, very often what happens is 331 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: that's really man's perpetual search for a hidden enemy, and 332 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: that enemy is almost always found among the helpless, very 333 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: frequently among outsiders, very frequently among goth kids or people 334 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: who might be deemed to be like a little like 335 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: outside the fold. Very often against women. That's been historically 336 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: true with the witch trials. So it's regular people, people 337 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: who have never hurt anyone, innocent outsiders who pay the 338 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: price for that kind of talk, Which is why I 339 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: want people to be really careful with it. Yeah, I 340 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: totally agree, and it's just I think it's just so personal, 341 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: and it's also really important to be open. Like you 342 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 1: were saying, there's so many people studying this stuff like 343 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: esp and telepathy and certain things that are slowly being 344 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: scientifically proven to exist, and even just certain therapies that 345 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 1: are used, and they just sound so hippie dippy and 346 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: like kind of crazy. But from personal experience, I've had 347 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: personal experience where it's been really helpful and really spiritually enlightening. 348 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: So I don't know how to explain it, really, but 349 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: I have felt it and seen it in myself, and 350 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: so I know it's real because I felt it myself, 351 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: and I feel like I just want to give um. 352 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: I don't know, I just want to give a voice 353 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: to the stuff that I don't understand. And I was 354 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: reading about in your book. I was reading about the 355 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: Universal Friend, which I found really fascinating, like loved them, 356 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: and I didn't quite like understand where that ended, did it? 357 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners about the Universal Friend? Sure? 358 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: You know, I was wondering if that was going to 359 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: come up. I'm really delighted raised that a lot of 360 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: people have have said to me, Oh, I love the 361 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: chapter about the Universal Friend, So dig this. The Universal 362 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: Friend was a young woman named Jemima Wilkinson who grew 363 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: up in Rhode Island in a Quaker household around the 364 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: time of the Revolutionary War, and Jemima was sick with 365 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: type is fever and she fell into a kind of 366 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: coma and her parents arents, thought she was going to die. 367 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,959 Speaker 1: She was about twenty four years old, and they were 368 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: sitting in vigil at her deathbed. And this was just 369 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: at the dawn of the Revolutionary War, and everybody thinks, well, 370 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: Jemima is going to be gone any any day now. 371 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: And suddenly one day she springs up from the bed, 372 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: all healthy and and bright and ruddy looking, and she says, 373 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: the woman that you know as Jemima has died, and 374 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: the woman now standing before you will only be addressed 375 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: as the public universal friend, and I am an avatar 376 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: of the great Beyond, an avatar of great creation. And 377 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: Jemima goes out and she starts giving talks around the 378 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: nation in New York State, in Rhode Island, in New Jersey, 379 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: in Philly, and she's one of the only people literally 380 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: who's capable of crossing military lines between British troops and 381 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: and and US troops or colonial troops during the Revolutionary War. 382 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: And the thing that's extraordinary about Jemima is most people 383 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: had never seen a woman even speak in public before, 384 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: much less deliver sermons and speeches. And so she's this 385 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: supernatural being, this kind of channel er who's identifying herself 386 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: as the public universal friend, traveling around the Northeast giving talks, 387 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: and people are shocked because they've never seen a woman 388 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: in a role of religious leadership before. And it it's 389 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: probably safe to say that in addition to Mother Ann Lee, 390 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: the founder of the Shakers, Jemima was probably the first 391 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: female religious leader in modern life. And she was a 392 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: supernatural figure or she made those claims, and her followers 393 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: built a mansion for her in upstate New York, and 394 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: central New York State is still there. It's in a 395 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: town called Jerusalem, which they named Jerusalem because they felt that, yeah, 396 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: she was this new prophet and they wanted to a 397 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: properly house this avatar, this prophet, this channeler, And that 398 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: mansion is still there. And she died in eighteen nineteen. 399 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: But her followers did a lot to settle Central New 400 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: York State, and she did a lot to acclimate the 401 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: nation to the idea that a woman could be a 402 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: religious leader. So people don't remember the name. A lot 403 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: of these figures have been forgotten, but their legacy is 404 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: in the movements that they instigated. And she was probably 405 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: the first really prominent female religious figure in American life 406 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: and in all of modern life. I loved reading about her, 407 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: and I was just so surprised I've never heard of 408 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: her before. Yeah, Like, she seemed like such a badass 409 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: in that name. I'm I'm a sucker for a flashy name. 410 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: But the public universal friend, that's so good. It's a trip, right, Damn, 411 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: she is so cool. I'm going to read more about her. 412 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: She's a badass. She's like one of my neighras. But 413 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: so is That is where she did her sermons and 414 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: her spiritual teachings. Is that part of the Psychic Highway? Yes, 415 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: the Psychic Highway is a carriage path that stretched through 416 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: central New York State uh in the in the first 417 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: part of of of the the eight hundreds, and today 418 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: it's US Root twenty. It's actually the longest continual road 419 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: in America, goes from from Boston to Eugene, Oregon. It's 420 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: the longest uninterrupted road in the United States. But back 421 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: in the day, it was just a little carriage path 422 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: that ran through central New York State in in the 423 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: in the early eighteen hundreds, and it's been called the 424 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: Psychic Highway because that's the place. That's the area where 425 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: all these new religions spread out from. That's where the 426 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: Public Universal Friend was active. That was the birthplace of 427 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: new religions like Mormon is Um and Seventh Day advent 428 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,959 Speaker 1: is Um. That was the birthplace of the Suffragist movement. 429 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: That was the birthplace of spiritualism and seances. There was 430 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: so much going on in Central New York State. It 431 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: was just incredible. And nobody assumes that. You know, if 432 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: you ask people, well, where's like the epicenter of alternative spirituality, 433 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: most people would say, well, l A or southern California. 434 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: And that certainly is true today and has been true 435 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: for a long time. But back in the early days 436 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: of this nation, all the radical and alternative religious movements 437 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: were coming out of Central New York State. It was 438 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: absolutely wild. And that was called the Burned Over District 439 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: because it was considered burned over by the fires of 440 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: the spirit And this little road which a lot of 441 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: Americans traveled to settle out west, that was called the 442 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: Psychic Highway, that was used to spread radical or religious 443 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: ideas around the nation, and so much was going on there. 444 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: It was really mysterious and it was really incredible. Do 445 00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: you think it was just like part of the zeitgeist, 446 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: like what was happening and New York like has always 447 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: just been an epicenter for amazing, wild creative energy or 448 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: do you think Because I can't help but think that 449 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: almost like people with space travel, I was thinking this 450 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: last night when I was reading your book, So bear 451 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: with me here, I was a little stoned, but it 452 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 1: made sense last night. So when people came from wherever 453 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: they came from to the new world, that must have 454 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: been so exciting and terrifying, exhilarating, mind blowing, like all 455 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: of the things just exploring, right, And it's kind of 456 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: how I feel like we would feel now going into 457 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: outer space, like actually making it to Mars or something 458 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: where you're just exploring and actually reaching a new, undiscovered place, 459 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 1: and the idea of like getting on a boat and 460 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: potentially never coming back to everything you've ever known. I 461 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: can't help but think there must be some correlation to 462 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: finding a land you didn't know existed and also then 463 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: exploring thoughts that are bigger than yourself. Yeah, I think 464 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: that's beautifully put, and I think that captures why there 465 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: was so much radical activity going on in some of 466 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: these places which we might look at and say, wow, 467 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: it was just it was just farmland, you know, why 468 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: did it produce so many radical ideas? As you were alluding. 469 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: When people travel to new places or and they settle 470 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: in new places, they're leaving behind the congregations and the 471 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: family ties of their childhood. They're leaving behind the churches 472 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: they belong to, their leaving behind a lot of family ties. 473 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: And in Central New York State, um, there was a 474 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: whole wave of new settlement after the War of Independence. 475 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: There there there was a Native American tribe, the Seneca Nation, 476 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: that lived in central New York State for centuries, but 477 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: the Seneca unfortunately made a military alliance with the British 478 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: during the Revolutionary War, and after the war, the colonial government, 479 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: which had been looking for a pretext to push the 480 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: Native Americans off that land, used that military alliance as 481 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: an excuse to push the Native Americans out of Central 482 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: New York State, and the government opened up that land 483 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: to speculation, and so lots of relatively liberal people from 484 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: New England flowed into central New York State to start 485 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: new farms and businesses and so on. And when they 486 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: entered the place, it was just this beautiful, rich, fertile farmland. 487 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: They didn't know anything about the Indian lives that had 488 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: been extinguished from that soil. They just thought, Wow, we're 489 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: Eden or something. And they left behind their ties back home. 490 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: So they were like a ripe audience for new really 491 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: just movements and ideas, and man did they flow. And 492 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: that's where you had movements like the Shakers growing up 493 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: in the public universal friend and again you know, new religions, 494 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: including Mormonism, Seventh Day Adventism, utopian movements, radical political movements. 495 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: It was all happening there for a couple of generations, 496 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: so wild. I just like I sometimes I don't know, 497 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: my mind changes every day, but sometimes I feel like 498 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: there's reincarnation, And if there was, and I did, in 499 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: fact um lived during this time, I just wish I 500 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: could time travel back there because it would be so fascinating. 501 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: And I wonder if we're going to do the same 502 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: thing to the moon. Basically is that the next frontier. 503 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: I hope we like keep it classy at least, But 504 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: I just like also listening to you talk, I realized 505 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: that there are so many people displaced, and all of 506 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: these spiritual movements happening at the same time, like you said, 507 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 1: as Native Americans getting murdered and slavery and um again. 508 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: In your book, I was reading about Frederick Douglas and 509 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: his relationship to the occult, and I found it really 510 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: interesting reading about who Do and um I again may 511 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: be it, so I'd love for you to talk about it, 512 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: because you've studied this a lot more than I have. 513 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: But I just found it so interesting that Frederick Douglas 514 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: was involved with the occult and who Do, which is 515 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: really interesting. Yeah, Who Do is such a fascinating tradition, 516 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: that that's an African American religious and magical tradition, and 517 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: it's who Do with an age. A lot of people 518 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: confuse it with voodoo, which is a proper Afro Caribbean religion, 519 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: but who Do is something entirely different. And one of 520 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: the things I was really shocked to learn when I 521 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: was writing A to America is that in all three 522 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: of his memoirs, Frederick Douglas wrote about an episode where 523 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: he was at the most desperate place in his life. 524 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: He was fifteen years old, and he was being persecuted 525 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: by a very sadistic, cruel slave owner who just reveled 526 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: in humiliating and beating the slaves that were that were 527 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: in his charge. And there was a wise man. Douglas 528 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: identified him as a wise African advisor, a wise old 529 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: medicine man who still understood some of the old ways, 530 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: who gave Frederick what he described as a magic root. 531 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: And Frederick said, you know, it's possible that this route 532 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: helped me stand up to this vicious slave owner and 533 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: gave me a feeling of individuality and inner worth and 534 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: sense of inner revolution. He was never sure about it, 535 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: but he felt it was important to repeat the story, 536 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: so much so that he repeated it in all three 537 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: of his memoirs. And I realized from his description that 538 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: this mad root is a very holy item in who 539 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: do called John the Conqueror or Hi John. It's a 540 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: it's a root that's native to the American South, called 541 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 1: jlep root, and it's said to provide the holder with 542 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: strength and virility and braveness. And Douglas said he wasn't 543 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: sure that he ever believed in any of that, but 544 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: that he couldn't fully discount it. He couldn't fully discount it, 545 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: and he said it was the most revolutionary episode of 546 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 1: his life where he realized that he would be free 547 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: internally until he could escape slavery and be free as 548 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: a fact. And within about three years he did escape slavery. 549 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: But he told the story. He told it with veneration, 550 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 1: and it's been written out of our history books because 551 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: most historians look at this kind of episode and they 552 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: don't know what's being referred to, or if they're not 553 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: really interested in it, or they've never heard of who Do. 554 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 1: But when I saw Frederick's description, I was immediately struck 555 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: that this was an episode that was straight out of 556 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: who do this African American magical tradition. And that's how 557 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: the is at the heart of our history in ways 558 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: that we very rarely see. It's so intertwined with so 559 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: many people and throughout history, and it's just crazy how 560 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: much it's been written out. I guess it just blows 561 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: my mind. Um like learning about, Oh my god, reading 562 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: about how President Lincoln had seances with his wife in 563 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: the White House, I had no idea like that's I 564 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 1: that's so interesting, and I just like it makes me 565 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm just like so fascinated with that 566 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: and I want to learn more about it because apparently 567 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: they had lost two children, is that right, and they 568 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: wanted to try to help deal with the grief. And 569 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's um basically just a way 570 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: to deal with grief was to believe that perhaps there's 571 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: something beyond or there really was a spirit visited her. 572 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: But it seemed like, um, she was helped with her 573 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: grief through sciences. Yeah, And that's a really good observation, 574 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: and that's part of the reason why sciences were so 575 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: popular in America so quickly and amongst so much of 576 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: the population. The Lincoln one of the Lincoln's sons, Willie, 577 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: died at the age of ten in the White House, 578 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: and they were just absolutely distraught. And and there was 579 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 1: at that time, whatever position of society you occupied, whether 580 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: you were powerful, whether you were an everyday person, there 581 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: was no grief counseling. You know, people would experience the 582 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,439 Speaker 1: death of a child or the death of a loved one, 583 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: and for most people there wasn't really any morning period, 584 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: you know, they would just really have to bury the 585 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: loved one and go back to work. And when sciences 586 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: became popular. Yeah, it's hard to believe. It's hard to 587 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: conceive of, especially for I mean consider like the lives 588 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: of working women. You know, they would lose children all 589 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 1: the time to childhood diseases, and in the world that 590 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: they lived in, they were very isolated. There were there 591 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: was there was nothing like therapeutic spirituality. There was no 592 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: way of contending with the grief of it. It was 593 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: just a matter of burying the child and going back 594 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: to work. And it was horrible to be reminded of 595 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: this death. And people just didn't have any way of 596 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: of coping with this grief. It could consume a person. 597 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: And Mary Todd Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln's wife, she was no different. 598 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: You know, she was overcome with grief and she began 599 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: to go to the seance table as a way of 600 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: trying to make contact. And we have records one that's 601 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: really reliable because it was in a Boston newspaper of 602 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: Lincoln holding sciences in the Red Room of the White House, 603 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,919 Speaker 1: and he and Mary Todd and some invited guests would 604 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 1: hold sciences and one of these sciences was observed by 605 00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: a reporter from the Boston Gazette. Oh my god. Yeah, 606 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: and so it's an absolute fact. And you know, some 607 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: historians have wondered, why in the world would Aid Lincoln 608 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 1: invite a reporter from the Boston Gazette to be present 609 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: at a seance. Wouldn't he be embarrassed? Wouldn't he think 610 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: it would make him look strange? And the truth is, 611 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: you know, back in the mid nineteen hundreds, um or 612 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: rather sorry, the mid eighteen hundreds, for a lot of people, 613 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: sciences were not a matter of embarrassment. They didn't feel 614 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: like they had to conceal their interest in these things. 615 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: For some people, it was a matter of deep personal 616 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: spiritual interests. For others, and this was probably true of Lincoln. 617 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: It was more of a novelty, you know, It's just 618 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: something to try out. And I think Lincoln allowed to 619 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: report it, to be present because this was during the 620 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: Civil War and he wanted people to see that he 621 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 1: was not overly encumbered by wartime command, that during the 622 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,399 Speaker 1: Civil War the chief could kind of kick back and 623 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: just try a little experiment, try a little novelty that 624 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: lots of other people in America were into, in the 625 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: North and in the South. And in fact, the story 626 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: was picked up by various newspapers, including newspapers in the Confederacy, 627 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: including a couple of newspapers in Georgia, and it had 628 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: the effect that he wanted it to have, which was 629 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: showing people, hey, you know, I'm just like you. I'm 630 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: just like you. I can kick back and i can 631 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: try this little experiment. I'm not so overburdened by wartime 632 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: command that I'm not doing other things. So it served 633 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: kind of a propaganda purpose for him. It was a 634 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: different time in our national life, but you know, you 635 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: could do things like that. I also wonder if there 636 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: was therapy back then, because if there wasn't, I'd be 637 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 1: doing a fucking science every like every morning, because if 638 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: it helps you cope with life, then I would sign 639 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: me up. I am kind of surprised that there aren't 640 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,919 Speaker 1: more sciences now. Yeah, it's interesting. Nowadays you don't see 641 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: too many of the old fashioned Victorian sciences were people 642 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: are joining hands in a darkened parlor and you know, 643 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: you're hearing bangs and wraps. But today we think less 644 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: in terms of sciences than we do in terms of 645 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: psychics and channeling mediums, intuition. So the same stuff is 646 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: still going on. You know, we're still reaching out to 647 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 1: the invisible world. We're still asking can we make contact 648 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: with something beyond ourselves? But we call it by different names, 649 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 1: which is very often what happens. You know. We we 650 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: discard the outer wrapping, or we discard the old vocabulary, 651 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: but we're still doing it. Okay, what is table wrapping? Now? 652 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: In my mind, it was a bunch of people wrapping 653 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,800 Speaker 1: at each other over a table, which I think probably 654 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,839 Speaker 1: is not what it is. Well back in the ear 655 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: back in the early days of sciences, uh, going back 656 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: to the say the eighteen forties, um. The earliest seances 657 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: involved people hearing bangs and wraps and noises and claiming 658 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,200 Speaker 1: the they could work out systems of communication with the 659 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: spirit world, and that's what eventually gave birth to the 660 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: WEGI board. Actually, Americans were trying to figure out ways 661 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: that they could contact the spirit world without any intermediary, 662 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: without any middleman. You know. It was this kind of 663 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: do it yourself spirit and so they wanted to figure 664 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,399 Speaker 1: out methods of communication. So they would try to work 665 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: out formulas where there would be bangs and wraps or 666 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: noises or something like that around the sands table. So 667 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: that's that's what we mean by spirit raps. Okay, so 668 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,319 Speaker 1: it's not a spirit like rapping at people, not back then. 669 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: That's what I'm gonna do when I'm dead. It's my plan. Um. Anyways, 670 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: do you think that, like because of COVID and quarantine 671 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: and all everything we've just gone through as the world 672 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: and America, that there's going to be like a new 673 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 1: way of of spiritualism. Oh yeah, I really do. I 674 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: really do. And it's funny, I swear, kesha. If you 675 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: had asked me that question five years ago, I probably 676 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 1: would have said, no, you know, the occult isn't evergreen. 677 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: It's always been with us. Uh. And I feel differently today. 678 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: I feel differently today because I think there's things happening 679 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: right now in our generation that are opening up questions 680 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: like the ones you and I have been going over 681 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: like nothing we've ever seen. I mean, look at what's 682 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 1: going on in the UFO world, for example. I mean, 683 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: I will not go into that. Oh my god, I'm 684 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: so happy you brought that up. Yeah, Like, I mean, 685 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 1: we we have these cockpit video recordings that the Navy 686 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: took of of UFOs and these things have been floating 687 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: around for a while, but very very recently the military 688 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: validated these things is real and this is engineered phenomena. 689 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,359 Speaker 1: This is artificial phenomena. This isn't natural phenomena. This isn't 690 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: somebody making a mistake, This isn't somebody I imagining things. 691 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: You know, these cockpit videos are concrete evidence, among others, 692 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: among others that there's some sort of engineered phenomena out 693 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: there that we don't understand. And once you crack open 694 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: that door, now that the UFO thesis has gone mainstream, 695 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: I mean, no serious person says, oh, you know, it's 696 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: swamp gas, or I don't believe in little green men, 697 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,839 Speaker 1: or it's delusional whatever, you know, that's not a serious 698 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: idea anymore. Everybody acknowledges, Okay, whatever they are, there's something 699 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 1: called UFOs, and they're out there and they're engineered. We 700 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: don't know what they are. But but this is this 701 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,280 Speaker 1: is plain this as plain as it comes. Once that happens, 702 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: now that we've kind of crossed that threshold, it starts 703 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: opening up all kinds of different ideas, ideas about extraterrestrial life, 704 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 1: ideas about there being water on the Moon and venous 705 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: and possible microbial life on Mars and Suddenly things start 706 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: to sound very differ rent than they did when I 707 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: was growing up as a kid. When I was a 708 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,879 Speaker 1: little kid, if you talked about the idea of there 709 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: being microbial life on Mars, you know, you would get 710 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: sent to take a special test somewhere. You know, I 711 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 1: would get sent to sit in the principal's office. You know, 712 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: today this is being studied, this is being talked about. 713 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: This is real, and it opens up the door at 714 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: all kinds of questions, So questions of a world that exists, 715 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 1: a life that exists outside of just ordinary flesh and bone, 716 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 1: ordinary cognition, the ordinary senses. These things are facts, and 717 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 1: once you open that door, it opens us up into 718 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,959 Speaker 1: all kinds of directions. It's like a wheel with many 719 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: different spokes, so that there's an occult revival coming. There's 720 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: no question in my mind, and we need it because 721 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: we've all been so lonely, and we've all been so isolated, 722 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: and people have suffered during this lockdown, and they're desperate 723 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: for contact, not only with other people, but with a 724 00:44:54,400 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: larger sense of themselves. Yes and purpose and the idea 725 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 1: that there is something out there, whether it's UFOs like 726 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with space and UFOs and aliens like I 727 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,720 Speaker 1: have been since I was a little kid, and finally 728 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 1: now all of a sudden, it's like not taboo to 729 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,920 Speaker 1: talk about. And on my podcast, Demi Levado is talking 730 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:28,840 Speaker 1: about how she's contacting aliens and nobody seems to care. 731 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: And then it's on the New York Times, and then 732 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: it's also like the Daily Mail, so it's on all 733 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: the different kinds of news outlets and everyone's just acting 734 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:45,319 Speaker 1: real chill about this. Yes, I find very weird. It's fascinating, 735 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. In twenty nine, uh, there was 736 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: a panel at the Guggenheim Museum here in New York 737 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: City where I am about UFOs and the Guggenheim is 738 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,760 Speaker 1: not actually you know, known as this fount of occult passion, 739 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: and they're having a panel on UFOs and the curator 740 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: came up to me and he said, look, let me 741 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: ask you a question. He said, at what point do 742 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: you think it's going to become unacceptable? At what point 743 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: do you think it's going to become embarrassing for someone 744 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,719 Speaker 1: to say, oh, the whole UFO thing, that's all nonsense. 745 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,280 Speaker 1: And I said, you know, we're living through that point 746 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: right now, in the here and now, Like everything you 747 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:25,840 Speaker 1: were just saying testifies to that. You can't just say nowadays, Oh, 748 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,359 Speaker 1: the whole UFO thing, it's all just delusion, it's all 749 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:33,320 Speaker 1: imaginary whatever. No serious person feels that way, And that's different. 750 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: That's different from where we were five years ago. So 751 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: things are shifting. And I'm not given to saying that easily, 752 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,399 Speaker 1: but things really are shifting. I think so too. I 753 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:47,919 Speaker 1: feel it. And I also feel like because my mom 754 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: and I and my best friend, we're all like obsessed 755 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: with UFOs and aliens and we have been for a 756 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 1: very very long time, so it's all very exciting um 757 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 1: and it feels like almost like this reckoning right on 758 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 1: every level is happening. And we just like revel and 759 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: the idea that something we've been obsessed with and fascinated 760 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,240 Speaker 1: with and really believed in for so long is finally 761 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: becoming a normal topic of conversation. But we also were 762 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:26,520 Speaker 1: saying that it must be challenging for some people, especially 763 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,359 Speaker 1: if you're a very religious person, to not be able 764 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: to fully have everything contained into one book or one idea. 765 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,840 Speaker 1: I feel like, once hopefully there is contact made in 766 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 1: my lifetime or just more information about extraterustrial life and UFOs. 767 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:49,879 Speaker 1: I feel like it's really gonna blow people's idea of 768 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:54,520 Speaker 1: what is like. It's going to blow it up. But 769 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,399 Speaker 1: I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that's 770 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: a good thing. But I think the illusion is going 771 00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: to be Um, it's just our minds are gonna get blown. Yeah. Yeah, 772 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 1: it's interesting, you know, and we as human beings, we 773 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,440 Speaker 1: love to debate things back and forth, and people use 774 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: all kinds of sarcastic language online all the time. You know, 775 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,799 Speaker 1: every third social media post is insulting somebody, but that 776 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:23,240 Speaker 1: it does. Yeah, all it takes is one is one incident. 777 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,759 Speaker 1: Is one incident, and then all the arguments and all 778 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: the friction and all the back and forth, it's just gone. 779 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 1: It's just gone, like it doesn't exist. You know. It's 780 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: like the Right brothers flying their first airplane. You know, 781 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 1: the question of whether humanity could fly is settled, and 782 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,839 Speaker 1: we forget that it was ever controversial. And you know, 783 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 1: we have such overwhelming evidence of UFOs, and I would 784 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,799 Speaker 1: argue as well that we have such overwhelming evidence of 785 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,880 Speaker 1: ESP for example, that we're going to reach a point 786 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 1: where that evidence is just going to be so persuasive 787 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 1: that we're going to forget how cont virtual this this 788 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 1: once was, you know, and and those controversies when they pass, 789 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,400 Speaker 1: they get forgotten, however hot they are in the moment. 790 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: And I think that's actually what's happening in our generation. 791 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: That's so crazy. You're so right, Like the aliens are 792 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,000 Speaker 1: going to come and we're gonna be like, what are 793 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: you talking about? This is so normal, right right, I've 794 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,600 Speaker 1: been talking about this and I had no friends in 795 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: middle school because I was talking about aliens and spaceships. 796 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 1: And then we're all just going to be like hanging 797 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,200 Speaker 1: out with them, hopefully hopefully they're nice. I have a 798 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 1: good feeling about you, and your friends in middle school 799 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,160 Speaker 1: will remember agreeing with you, even though they didn't. They'll 800 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: be like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know they were such 801 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: a mean ladies. Know what they were mean. I'm going 802 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 1: to call them out once the aliens come, so they 803 00:49:54,040 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 1: better hurry up. They arguing, But like, I totally agreed 804 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 1: with you. Yeah, I was there for you, right. No, 805 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: that's like one of the many reasons I had no 806 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:12,360 Speaker 1: friends in middle school, so no, but um, what was 807 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: I gonna ask you, okay, I have a couple of stupid, quick, 808 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:20,719 Speaker 1: fiery kind of questions. If you're at least what is 809 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,000 Speaker 1: your okay, do you want to start a conspiracy theory? 810 00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,880 Speaker 1: And if you would like to, now is your chance, 811 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,319 Speaker 1: So take it away. Well dig this. I don't. I don't. 812 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: I don't start conspiracy theories that run down anybody. You know, 813 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't start conspiracy theories that make enemies 814 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: of anybody. But I will say this, um, there is 815 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,040 Speaker 1: a kind of intellectual conspiracy theory that is like a 816 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,319 Speaker 1: fog and a smug and our culture, and that is 817 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,200 Speaker 1: that we don't have evidence of some of this stuff, 818 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:56,440 Speaker 1: and people are so desperate to hang onto the worldview 819 00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: that they're currently in that if I could zen people, 820 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:04,480 Speaker 1: and I can with plain statistical evidence for example, for 821 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,799 Speaker 1: esp or psychical activity, whatever you want to call it, 822 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,759 Speaker 1: I present that evidence to people over and over and over, 823 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 1: and I'm still told there is no evidence. It doesn't exist. 824 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,000 Speaker 1: And it's like a conspiracy theory that we work against 825 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: ourselves because we're so desperate to hang onto the world 826 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,600 Speaker 1: that we once knew that we deny what's there, even 827 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,080 Speaker 1: if it's presented to us as plain as can be. 828 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,799 Speaker 1: So we are our own kind of conspirators. You know, 829 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:36,560 Speaker 1: there's a conspiracy theory that we've worked against ourselves where 830 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,440 Speaker 1: we don't want to look at real evidence because it 831 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,959 Speaker 1: upsets what we want to believe. It's so true, it's 832 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:48,719 Speaker 1: so true because change is uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable. If we can, 833 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,759 Speaker 1: if we can all just like pretend like everything's fine 834 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,399 Speaker 1: and it's just going to stay right here, I feel 835 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,760 Speaker 1: like it's more comfortable. But that's not how life works. 836 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,279 Speaker 1: So you keep talking about esp they're being proof. Do 837 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:02,799 Speaker 1: you want to like because I don't know what you're 838 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,279 Speaker 1: talking about? Oh? Sure, you know, Since going back to 839 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:12,919 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, we've had solid jury clinical experiments, academic 840 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,919 Speaker 1: laboratory based experiments that demonstrate over and over and over 841 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:21,759 Speaker 1: again that certain people are able to pass information back 842 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,279 Speaker 1: and forth between one another, or to receive information in 843 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:29,160 Speaker 1: ways that go beyond the ordinary senses, either using pictures 844 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 1: or using cards or using just uh, the ability to 845 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,560 Speaker 1: repeat patterns of numbers or other things where there shouldn't 846 00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,040 Speaker 1: be any patterns at all. And this statistical evidence is 847 00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,000 Speaker 1: so overwhelming and so powerful and has been written about 848 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,279 Speaker 1: in mainstream journals, jury journals, and it's there and it's 849 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,040 Speaker 1: plainist day and once you acknowledge it, basically, you've acknowledged 850 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: the supernatural. You know, you've said, yes, there is a 851 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,719 Speaker 1: world out there that goes beyond flesh and bone, and 852 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,360 Speaker 1: people there are critics who are so desperate not to 853 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: acknowledge that because I guess they're afraid that it's going 854 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:11,120 Speaker 1: to unleash all this irrationality. And how learning about reality 855 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: unleash irrationality? You know, how can knowing more and more 856 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,840 Speaker 1: of what's going on be irrational? But that's their fear, 857 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,399 Speaker 1: and I understand where they're coming from, and it's really 858 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,680 Speaker 1: hard to debate with them because they are so fearful 859 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,719 Speaker 1: of acknowledging the existence of a bigger world that they 860 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,759 Speaker 1: will play kill the messenger basically, And I don't mind. 861 00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,759 Speaker 1: You know, I put myself out there for that. That's 862 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,080 Speaker 1: the job I sunned up for and it is okay. 863 00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:41,520 Speaker 1: But there's enough people listening so that eventually this information 864 00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,680 Speaker 1: is going to be accepted, just like the UFO information 865 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:47,400 Speaker 1: is accepted. So that's where I'm coming from when it 866 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:51,319 Speaker 1: comes to ESP research. That's so interesting. I'm gonna look 867 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,920 Speaker 1: into that more because I feel like I definitely get 868 00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 1: messages like I feel like a little bit telep ethics sometimes, 869 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 1: like I can totally read the mind of my cat 870 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,960 Speaker 1: and people and people, but mostly my cat. I spent 871 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:10,920 Speaker 1: the most time with him over the past year and 872 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,719 Speaker 1: a half, So that's the main person I'm communicating with 873 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: is my cat at the moment. An emotional means a lot, 874 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:22,520 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, emotional bonds really matter. But yeah, 875 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,440 Speaker 1: there's just some people where I can just tell what 876 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,319 Speaker 1: they're thinking sometimes, and I can also I'll also have 877 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,400 Speaker 1: moments where I just know something has happened before what's happened. 878 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. That's not esp I don't know what 879 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,759 Speaker 1: that is. A lot of people feel that way, you know. 880 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,160 Speaker 1: I Mean, it's funny you talk to people from all 881 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,760 Speaker 1: different walks of life. In this country, we're all so divided, 882 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: but yet you start to get into experiences like this 883 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,279 Speaker 1: and suddenly the divisions disappear. Like you'll have all kinds 884 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: of people from all different backgrounds, political outlook saying yeah, 885 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,399 Speaker 1: I did that, that's happened to me, That's happened to me. 886 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,480 Speaker 1: It does unite us. Yeah, I think so too, and 887 00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,080 Speaker 1: maybe we're like scared of that deep down because and 888 00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,600 Speaker 1: if you take away all the drama and we're all 889 00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,400 Speaker 1: united and just like having a good time, we're going 890 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,120 Speaker 1: to be bored. Yeah that's a serious truth. I mean, 891 00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 1: I think we human beings. We say we want peace, 892 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,760 Speaker 1: but we actually really dig friction and arguing and violence, 893 00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:18,000 Speaker 1: and it's a it's a very ugly aspect of human nature. 894 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,920 Speaker 1: I think you're right. I know, Well, I don't know 895 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,320 Speaker 1: how to fix that, So if you ever can figure 896 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,280 Speaker 1: out how to fix it, just give me a call back, Okay. 897 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,560 Speaker 1: But I do think there's like something inside of us 898 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:36,279 Speaker 1: that loves the drama of drama. Oh for real, for real? Yeah, 899 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,279 Speaker 1: then it keeps us in this cycle of violence and 900 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:45,320 Speaker 1: pain and war and drama. Oh I think there's no question. Yeah. Yeah, 901 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:50,080 Speaker 1: I haven't figured out like how to not um do that, 902 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 1: but I am first. The first step is recognizing the 903 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,880 Speaker 1: pattern without question. I used to there's a spiritual teacher 904 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,080 Speaker 1: I love who used to say, either your spiritually creative 905 00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:05,239 Speaker 1: or your troublemaker. You're either spiritually creative or you're a troublemaker. 906 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,200 Speaker 1: So like getting in touch with the larger I think 907 00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,920 Speaker 1: may take us to a healthier place, so that we're 908 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,959 Speaker 1: not spending all this time just fulminating against one another 909 00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 1: or being sarcastic on social media, which takes up way 910 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,560 Speaker 1: too much of our culture's time. Oh my god, I 911 00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,520 Speaker 1: wonder what we could all do with all the time 912 00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:30,160 Speaker 1: spent comparing yourself to others, talking shit about others, talking 913 00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:37,000 Speaker 1: about yourself, and like being the victim or the villain 914 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:42,600 Speaker 1: in a story. If you just slept be what is like? 915 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,640 Speaker 1: What would we be capable of? I was amazing. Yeah. 916 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,239 Speaker 1: You know, often people say to me, give me, like 917 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,839 Speaker 1: one spiritual exercise that will make me happy, or give 918 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,719 Speaker 1: me one spiritual exercise that will make me more powerful, 919 00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,680 Speaker 1: and they always expect I'm going to say meditation or 920 00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:02,040 Speaker 1: this or that. The thing I always say is stop gossiping. 921 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,240 Speaker 1: If you stop gossiping and you stopped running down other people, 922 00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,080 Speaker 1: you will stand taller, you will be happier, you will 923 00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,040 Speaker 1: be more powerful. Try it for just one hour and 924 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:14,440 Speaker 1: see what happens. It's incredible. We just give away our 925 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:19,720 Speaker 1: lives to this hostility. I agree. Well, I'm going to 926 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:23,000 Speaker 1: try not to do that anymore. You're inspiring me. I'm 927 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,680 Speaker 1: going to make a pact no gossiping, everybody one hour, 928 00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:32,840 Speaker 1: one hour, one hour. Thank you so much, pleasure. Okay, 929 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,760 Speaker 1: thank you to everybody who's listening, and thank you so much. 930 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:41,120 Speaker 1: This Mitch Horowitz and you should check out his book 931 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:46,800 Speaker 1: Occult America, amongst many other books. And is there anything 932 00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,400 Speaker 1: else you want to plug or like throw light onto 933 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: that you've been doing well. I'm working on a new 934 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,720 Speaker 1: book called Uncertain Places, which I'm very excited about. It 935 00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:57,959 Speaker 1: covers a lot of the topics that we've been dealing with. 936 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:00,959 Speaker 1: And people can visit me at mid harrowitz dot com. 937 00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,800 Speaker 1: There's lots of lectures and stuff there. And um, I 938 00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:06,720 Speaker 1: just thank you so much. I'm so glad you're doing 939 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,520 Speaker 1: the show. You're giving space to so many important topics. 940 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,040 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much for being here, and 941 00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:16,480 Speaker 1: thank you for everybody for listening. Keep on creeping on