WEBVTT - From the Vault: Kimchi 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.119 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:12.280 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In today's episode 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.080 is from the Vault. It's Saturday. Of course, it's Vault 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.160 time as always, and so today we're reaching back into 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:22.480 June of This one originally published on June of last year, 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:26.040 and this was our episode about fermented vegetables, about kimche 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:30.240 and sour Crowd and that whole funky awesome world. All right, well, 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:33.120 let's the vault is open, the kim Chi rise it, 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:40.479 let's enjoy. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:49.280 of My Heart Radio. Hey you, welcome to Stuff to 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.720 Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.640 Joe McCormick, and it's fermentation day here at the Stuff 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.840 to Blow Your Mind Podcast. We're gonna be talking about 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:00.560 kim she one of my favorite foods of all time. Uh. 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:02.760 And also later in the episode, just wanted to give 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:04.320 you a heads up. Robert and I are going to 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.040 chat about kimchi for a while first, but later on 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.520 we're gonna be speaking with a bona fide fermentation expert 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:14.919 from a Tufts fermentation lab. Her name is Dr Esther Miller, 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:17.160 and it sounds like she's got one of the coolest 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:21.160 jobs in the world. Yeah, given the title we went 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:23.360 with here Kim she a Song of Salt and Cabbage, 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:25.200 I guess it's a missed opportunity for us to have 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.880 done some sort of um wester Roast themed cold open 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:34.600 skit about about Kim She. Well, I guess the real 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.360 prince who was promised in the story is the lacto 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.479 basilla s bacteria and and he must come in order 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.160 to rescue the fermentation for the jar is dark and 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.880 full of spores. That's pretty good, But of course you 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:50.760 know there's some there. There has to have been some 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:54.559 pickling and from and or fermentation in the wester Ros books, 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.880 because it seems like they were always lengthy descriptions of 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.440 what kind of foods UH actors were eating. Yeah, but 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:03.800 a lot of it is I think like a classic 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:09.000 Anglo cuisine inspired, which is is actually very low. Well, 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:10.840 I don't want to be insulting, I would say at 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.240 least the perception is that it's relatively low on on 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.680 spices and and complex flavors. It tends to be a 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:21.840 rather bland cuisine, kind of focused on grain meat and dairy, 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:25.240 all right, But then I do we do have to 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.280 to point out that I guess there was beer, there 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.400 was cheese, there was bread. And that's one of the 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.680 reasons that fermented foods are so fascinating because there there 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:35.920 are these things that we often forget are fermented, like 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.680 cheese and bread and chocolate, and then we have these 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.400 fermented um you know, staples of various fermented goods that 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:44.760 you're going to have in your your kitchen. And also 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:50.200 some of the more um elaborate examples. For instance, uh, 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:54.560 there's the kivak, which is the traditional Inuit food from Greenland, 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.320 in which little ox, these these little birds are caught 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:00.600 and then fermented in a seal skin and it's buried 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.880 beneath rocks. There's a great feature on this in the 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.119 documentary series Human Planet that came out several years back 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.560 and was at the time narrated by John Hurt. I 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:11.880 gotta admit, as much as I love fermented foods, I 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:13.880 have never tried that one, and a lot of the 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.440 fermented foods that I've never really gotten into, or the 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.320 various kinds of fermented meats and dairy products from around 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.760 the world which are extremely common, though I think fermented 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.880 vegetable dishes such as kim chi have seen more of 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.519 an international renaissance and in recent years. Yeah, I feel 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.239 like when I was a kid, I wasn't as exposed 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:37.600 to as many fermented foods aside from these obviously fermented foods, 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.680 you know, like they I remember being supposed to sour 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.680 kraud but not really digging it for a long time. 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:46.680 But but now, well you know, is that is that 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.240 a good or bad? Uh? I'm just I'm just so 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.840 sorry for your deprived childhood. I mean, I I can 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.440 remember loving sour kroud as long as I had. One 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.240 of my earliest positive food memories is actually a memory 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:02.720 of eating a half sour pickle. Um. Yeah, I just 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:05.640 I don't know, it's It's always been there for me, 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.520 the love of especially like fermented pickled vegetables so good. 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:11.560 I think I just had kind of work up to it, 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:13.880 like some of those strong flavors, like there's some sort 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:18.440 of German um, oh, some sort of purple cabbage type 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.640 thing that I also didn't have a real strong uh 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:23.800 attraction to at the time. But all these things have 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.560 grown on me today. I love sour kroud and I 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.400 love Kim she I love exploring the various fermented veggie 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:35.000 or mushroom items you'll find uh in various cuisines. And 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.799 and my son, who is eight now, he's been pretty 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.599 pretty into all things fermented pretty much his whole life, 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.200 as long as they're not actually spicy. That's where he 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:46.680 has a little more of a struggle. But ultimately, I 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:48.840 don't know how much of this is his nature versus 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.360 nurture with him, though, Yeah, I wonder about that too, 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:55.480 because for minute vegetables, definitely they can have strong kind 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:59.800 of unfamiliar flavors and aromas that takes him getting used to, 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.280 So I would imagine that having a taste for fermented 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:07.120 foods is somewhat learned. Though then again, I I wonder 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.560 if there could actually be an instinct or at least 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.680 a slight predisposition that humans would have to find certain 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:17.960 kinds of smells and flavors associated with vegetable fermentation appetizing, 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.120 since this could be a possible vector to get useful 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.880 gut bacteria and other beneficial microbes that I think there's 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.479 good evidence that a lot of these good microbes do 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:32.040 actually survive the digestion process and and can help recolonize 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.520 the gut with with beneficial bacteria. And then of course 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.960 having healthy gut bacteria could provide some kind of survival advantage. 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.359 So I wonder it's it's possible. I can imagine that 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:45.159 there's some kind of instinctual predisposition that animals that like 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.599 humans could have, uh to to find these smells and 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.480 flavors appealing. And another thing I would say is that 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.400 you can contrast the appealing or at least potentially appealing 0:05:55.480 --> 0:06:00.359 smell of fermented foods like kimchi or yogurt with smell 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.640 of food that's rotting due to an unambiguously unfriendly micro 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.080 But in these cases, our visceral reaction to the smell, 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:13.760 I think it's much different. It's sort of automatic, instinctive revulsion. Uh. 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:15.920 You know, some people might be grossed out by the 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.080 smell of kimchi or sauerkraut, But I think that negative 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.839 reaction is qualitatively different than the like, you know, hot 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.600 garbage kind of reaction people have to the smell of 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:29.200 like real dangerous spoilage in foods. Yeah, like the like 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.520 the actual like dead animal smell, which really connects with 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:34.279 us on a on a primal level, like when you 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.599 smell it, you know it. You not might not be 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:38.880 able to summon that smell in your head right now, 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:43.120 but it's undeniable when you encounter it. Um. And now 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:47.080 I've I've I've read some different things about about kids 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.680 in flavor just through I think virtue of of being 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.680 a parent. I know there's the the argument that you know, 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:55.160 since a child has a smaller body and is more 0:06:55.200 --> 0:07:00.159 susceptible to the dangers of poisons, that that they going 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:04.559 to be overly sensitive to certain strong smells or flavors. Um. 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.000 And there's also this angle. I've not done any like 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.240 full research into it, and perhaps this would be a 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.480 topic for the future, but I know that biopsychologist Julie 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:20.040 Manila has researched the topic a bit regarding uh, you know, uh, 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:23.440 whether we're born with certain food preferences in mind. And 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.360 she has some work that shows that food preferences may 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.640 be developed in the womb or during very early life. 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:34.600 So we're talking prenatally and postnatally, involving both the amniotic 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.640 fluid and breast milk. So if I'm understanding it correctly, 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.440 the diet of a child's biological mother can influence the 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.640 child's taste later on. Yeah, that would not be surprising 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.560 to me. I mean, I think a lot of things 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:50.400 from the from the parents environment can come through to 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.240 the child like that. Um. But another thing you know, 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.760 I'm thinking about with with people's taste for fermented foods 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.200 is that it could be a psychological framing issue. You 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.720 You know, we've talked before about the research showing that 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.760 people you can take the same smell and that people 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.720 might find it appealing if you blindfold them and tell 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.440 them the smell is coming from a cheese, but find 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.920 it disgusting if you blindfold them and tell them it's 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.440 coming from a sock. Uh. For people on a Western 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.120 diet who are unfamiliar with kim chi or with other 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.840 fermented vegetables and find the smell off putting, it's possible 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.280 that it's you know, that it's similar aromas that they 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:31.640 would find appealing if they just had more of a 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.800 reason to associate them with, say the idea of vegetables, 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.480 because like some of the aromas that come off of 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.600 kim chi can smell kind of cheesy, and that's a 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.319 strange thing to smell coming off of vegetables if you're 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.720 not used to it. Yeah, I've I think I've voiced 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.720 a similar thing with Durian fruit before. Durian fruit, of course, 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:49.480 is is beloved in many parts of the world, but 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:56.280 sometimes is less appreciated, certainly in western circles, and I 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.559 think part of that is, like, if my my take anyway, 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.480 is that you approach the Durian as being a cheese 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.240 and not a fruit, then then that's going to dismantle 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.480 some of these associations you you make, because when you 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.280 take in the aroma of the Durian fruit, you might think, well, 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.480 that that doesn't smell like I expect a fruit to smell. 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.400 IM more accustomed to a really sweet smell with a 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.240 fruit or something much milder. But if you approach it 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.840 thinking cheese, then I think you're in a better position 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.440 to enjoy it. Yeah. I think that's a really good point, 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.320 and it almost makes me wonder if there is there 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.920 a certain kind of meditation practice that has been honed 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:36.520 in order to ready the mind to experience new flavors 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.880 and aromas as pleasurable when you're not used to them. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.840 I wonder if there is such a thing. I think maybe, Yeah, 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:46.360 maybe just a general sort of centering of the self 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.080 is probably would probably be helpful in those cases. I 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.439 do want to point out to the in terms of 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.560 Durian fruit, I don't have a lot of experience eating 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.040 Durian fruit, so anytime I have encountered it, I am 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:59.800 very much I feel like encountering it as an outsider 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.120 to like regular consumptions. So I would love to hear 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:04.600 from anyone out there who is, like, you know, grown 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:08.359 up with Durian fruit and how you like, because ultimately 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:09.880 my whole think of it a cheese and not a 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:14.040 fruit thing that maybe entirely based as well in my 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.360 situation as kind of a Durian outsider, yeah, I can 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.400 see that. But obviously, I mean tastes that were once 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.880 unfamiliar to us can become very very central to our 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.400 way of experiencing food in the world. I mean, so 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.720 I grew up loving pickled vegetables, but I did not, um, 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:32.760 I did not grow up with kim chi, and now 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:34.640 kim chi is one of my favorite foods. I mean, 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:36.800 if you, if you like, pin me down and said, like, 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:40.080 you know, uh, if you could only eat one kind 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:41.920 of food the rest of your life, what would it be. 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.200 I would try to reach for something like, well, something 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.040 that could be served with bon schon, you know, all 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:50.080 those little dishes like Korean side dishes of various different 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:53.360 vegetable preparations and kim chi and things like that. That's 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.720 the bulls eye for me. That's like the best thing, 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.600 and it wasn't always there. So like clearly, our orientations 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.079 about food can change as we mature, or maybe I 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.480 shouldn't say mature, just as we go on in life. 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.120 So in terms of just fermentation in general, we'll get 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.120 back more specifically to kimchi here in a bit. I 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:15.040 was reading a bit about it from fermentation expert sand 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.760 Or Cats. I'm sure he's come up in your research 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:21.280 as well. Um uh, you know, often cited and had 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:25.160 written several books on the topic, and sauerkraut king. Yeah. 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.079 Cats points out that if you venture into any restaurant 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.839 on the planet, if you dig into any cuisine, you're 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.600 going to find products of fermentation. And again this includes 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.760 more obvious examples such as you know, the sour krout 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:41.880 and the kimchi, but it also means bread. She's saladdressing alcohol, etcetera. 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.920 In fact, you know, he contends that it's hard to 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:48.840 get through the day without engaging with a product of fermentation. 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:53.560 All right, so we're naming fairly disparate seeming food items. 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:57.280 I mean, what do bread and cheese and sauerkraut and 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.760 kimchi really have in common? What? What? What is it? 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.200 It is the core process of fermentation. Well, in a nutshell, 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:07.199 we're talking about the chemical breakdown of a substance by bacteria, yeats, 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:12.040 or other micro organisms, typically involving uh effervescence and the 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.320 giving off of heat. Most notably, it enables humans to 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:19.520 preserve food and store it for travel, um or for 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.000 you know, for hard times, and as such it was 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.880 often vital for human expansion into harsher climates. Is something 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.520 a way that you could take your food with you 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.280 and it would survive and be edible when you get 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:36.560 to your destination, or allow you to to have food 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.319 in a destination that is that is harsher, right. I mean, 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.160 one of the big roles of fermentation I think clearly is, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.920 especially the fermentation of vegetables, is preserving vegetables and products 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:51.280 through the winter. The traditional preparation cycle for kimchi involves 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.880 packing it into pots in the autumn that can be 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.120 eaten throughout the winter, I guess throughout the rest of 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:00.319 the year, when fresh vegetables would be hard to come by. So, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.840 as is often the case with food traditions, I think 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:07.760 many forms of fermentation, vegetable fermentation likely followed a path 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.400 of beginning with a mistake and then moving to utilitarian 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:15.640 innovation as a preservative, but eventually just becoming a taste preference, 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.920 becoming something people liked because it's good. But I also 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:20.720 wanted to go back to a note you had on 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.640 the idea of effervescence in fermentation. This, this idea of 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:28.120 effervescence or bubbling. Uh, this is actually one of my 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.280 favorite things about certain kinds of kimchi. It's not always 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.600 like this, but certain kinds of kimchi not only have 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:38.559 these great complex flavors and pleasing crunch, it sometimes has 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.560 something you don't find in other solid foods, which is 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:46.760 a palpable taste of carbonation in the mouth. Sometimes kim 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.440 chi can kind of bubble and fizz and zing in 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.360 your mouth while you're chewing on it, the same way 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.600 that a sip of a carbonated drink does. And and 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.600 this is one thing I really love that this bubbling 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.840 property of fermentation is all so what creates. Of course, 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.280 you know the crumb structure, the holes in a loaf 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.679 of bread. But these bubbles are gas given off by 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.640 the yeast in bread as they metabolize the sugar in 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.680 the dough. The effervescent property in uh in kimchi, of course, 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.040 is the is the CEO two produced by the bacteria 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.040 as they break down the sugars in the cabbage. But 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.560 this effervescent property of giving off bubbles or gas was 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:29.000 actually probably where the word fermentation comes from. It's derived 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.800 ultimately from the Latin word for very, meaning to boil 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.680 or to seethe, and ancient Latin speakers probably would have 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.640 been able to observe that as grape juice sat in 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.600 vats and the natural yeasts turned sugar content into alcohol 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.320 to make wine, it would give off bubbles as if 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:50.920 it were somehow boiling without an external heat source. But anyway, 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.000 so I was reading about fermentation in a in a 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:56.760 book called the Noma Guide to Fermentation is written by 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.560 the staff of the famous Nordic Cuisine restaurant. But there 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.440 there are several ways they point out that you can 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.360 define fermentation which are basically all scientifically correct at different 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:10.200 levels of zooming in the first is that fermentation is 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.320 the transformation of foods by microorganisms. You let the microbes 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.000 do something to the food. The second is that it's 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:23.080 the transformation of foods by enzymes produced by the micro organism. Specifically, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.560 what they're doing is they're participating in the chemical breakdown 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.200 of molecules in the food. So they're breaking down long 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.320 starch chains into different pieces of those chains, getting a 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:37.880 little different sugars and things. They're breaking down long protein 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:42.480 chains into smaller pieces of those chains. But then finally 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:44.840 they say it is quote the process by which a 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.680 micro organism converts sugar into another substance in the absence 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:53.240 of oxygen and uh ands. As we know that there 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.640 are different microbes that are involved in different kinds of fermentation. 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.480 So for example, you've got yeast, which is a fungal 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.920 micro it's a fungus and it's the agent primarily involved 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.880 in the creation of bread, but also wine and beer. 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.640 While the agent most important to the fermentation of vegetables 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:14.240 like cabbage in sourkroud and kim chi is lactic acid bacteria. 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.800 And we'll get into more detail on that later, but 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:19.920 the gist is that if you take a bunch of 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.600 vegetables such as cabbage, doesn't have to be cabbage, but 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.240 this is often the vegetable used you put salt on them, 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.320 they'll kind of whilt down, release water, create a brine 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.320 that's salty in nature, and the salt creates an environment 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.400 where certain kinds of bacteria that are tolerant of salt 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:40.320 can thrive and overtake other microbes which are less tolerant 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.960 of salt. And as they take over, these lactic acid 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:48.520 bacteria further drive out other biological contaminants with the byproducts 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.360 of their metabolism. In the case of lactic acid bacteria, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.440 as they eat the sugars and the vegetables and the brine, 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:59.080 they excrete lactic acid, which of course is an acid. 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.000 It lowers the h of the brine. It acts as 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.200 a preservative, so it inhibits the growth of other microbes, 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.439 kind of like if you had added an acid directly, 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.600 like if you added vinegar or some of their acid 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.679 to pickle your food, except a major difference is that 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:16.600 the flavors that come out of the bacterial acid production 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.439 process are so much more complex and rich than the 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:24.600 sort of one note flavor of a simple dash of vinegar. Now, fermentation, 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.360 of course, uh as I think is already coming out, 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:32.320 occurs without human intention all the time. No humans are 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.240 required for this, and examples range from the fermentation of 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:40.960 fallen fruit to the interuric fermentation inside a creature's digestive system. Yeah, 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:45.000 and this is actually an evolutionary adaptation. Interect fermentation is 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:50.640 really interesting. So it is a symbiotic adaptation involving multiple 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.760 different species working together, and it's used by many animals, 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:58.919 including ruminant herbivores like sheep and cattle and camels, and 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.080 it allows them to survive on a diet of tough, 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:06.640 cellulose riddled plant matter that animals like us simply couldn't digest. 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:08.120 I mean, if you and I go out and eat 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.639 a bunch of grass. My dog tries it sometimes, but 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:12.920 I don't think it really helps them all that much. 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:15.320 Um and we we we just would not be able 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.800 to get much energy out of it at all. But 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:20.600 there's an advantage to surviving on a diet like this 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.800 if you can. Obviously, tough plant matter like grass is abundant, 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.560 it's easy to capture there's lots of it. It doesn't 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.160 run or fight back, but it's just hard to get 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.760 useful chemical energy out of it. So animals with natural 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:38.719 enteric fermentation use the help of a cultivated microbiome. They 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:43.320 have chambers in their digestive system specifically for the microbial 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.959 breakdown of tough plant matter, and it transforms all that 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.479 grass and stuff like that into simple sugars that can 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.000 be easily used as energy by the animals. So it's 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.840 almost like these room and herbivores have a kim chi 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.760 jar inside their digestive system. But you know, if you've 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.000 ever tried to make kimche at home, which I am 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.960 doing right now, one thing you know is that as 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.960 the fermentation happens, you either need to have a ventable 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.120 lid on the jar that will allow gas to escape, 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.840 or you need to burp it frequently. You need to 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:16.720 take the top off and let the gas out, or 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:20.880 pressure can really build up with some disastrous consequences, which 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.240 we can talk about at a little more later. And 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.199 a similar thing actually goes on with animals that undergo 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:30.800 terrek fermentation, because these room at herbivores end up having 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:35.360 to burp out an awful lot of byproduct gas, generally methane, right, 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.359 and in large enough quantity, which is generally the case 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.080 with say cows that are that are that are raised 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.680 by humans, that actually adds up and has an impact 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.440 on climate. Yeah, that's absolutely right, And in fact, I 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.919 know they're ongoing projects to try to fiddle with that, 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.120 to say, like, can we actually get down the level 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:56.880 of methane that is exhaled by these room and herbivores 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.560 by making certain tweaks to say their gut mic orobiota 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.760 or two there, or to exactly what the sugars in 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.680 their diet are and things like that. So that's cows. 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.480 But when it comes to humans, and specifically when it 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:14.680 comes to the intentional use of fermentation, of the fermentation process, 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:19.600 this is widely considered a Neolithic technology. We're gonna take 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:21.640 a quick break, but when we come back, we will 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:30.000 dive into what we know of the history of fermentation. Alright, 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.679 we're back. So Robert, you you've teased us about the 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.800 history of fermentation, saying that intentional use of fermentation of 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.159 foods by humans is something that goes back to the 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.960 Stone Age, the Neolithic era, right, you know, at least 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:48.399 so evidence of fermented beverages in China, for instance, seemed 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.280 to date back to the seventh millennium BC, based on 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:55.119 evidence from a Neolithic village in Henan Province UH and 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:58.919 this this evidence revealed a fermented mixture of rice, honey 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.119 and fruit. This was mentioned in um in a in 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.639 a paper titled Fermented Beverages in pre and Protohistoric China 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.480 from P. And A. S. H in two thousand four 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.280 written by A McGovern at all and then I was 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.080 also looking at a two thousands sixteen study from Adam 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:18.120 Bothius in the Journal of Archaeological Science, and that puts 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:23.480 a date on Scandinavian fermentation evidence to nine thousand, two 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.600 hundred years ago during the early Mesolithic UH. This would 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:31.000 have been processed fish, So the idea here is that 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.720 they were using something described as a gutter to ferment 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:38.920 fish in preserving it for later. The author discovered evidence 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.360 of this gutter along with vast quantities of well preserved 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:46.480 fish bones to support this argument. And fermented fish products 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:50.000 are actually very common now you might not know that 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:54.240 you've been consuming them, but examples include Worcestershire sauce. This 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.640 is a fermented fish product or of course Asian fish 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:00.920 sauces nonplaw. These are made by salting fish and then 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.280 using the extracted liquid that comes out as the strong, 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:09.880 deeply complex salty flavoring agent. Another example would be an 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:14.159 ancient Roman food known as garum, which was actually in 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:18.120 many many ways similar to Asian fish sauce. So fermented 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:20.840 fish products are are actually in wide use around the 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.280 world today. You might not always think about them being 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.280 the product of rotting fish but or you know, controlled 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.760 rot but that's what they are. Yeah. And if you 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:35.600 want more on garam and in various fish fermentation in 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.360 products sauces, we did an episode of Invention about ketchup 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:42.040