1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In today's episode 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: is from the Vault. It's Saturday. Of course, it's Vault 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: time as always, and so today we're reaching back into 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: June of This one originally published on June of last year, 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: and this was our episode about fermented vegetables, about kimche 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: and sour Crowd and that whole funky awesome world. All right, well, 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: let's the vault is open, the kim Chi rise it, 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: let's enjoy. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey you, welcome to Stuff to 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick, and it's fermentation day here at the Stuff 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind Podcast. We're gonna be talking about 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: kim she one of my favorite foods of all time. Uh. 15 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: And also later in the episode, just wanted to give 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: you a heads up. Robert and I are going to 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: chat about kimchi for a while first, but later on 18 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna be speaking with a bona fide fermentation expert 19 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,919 Speaker 1: from a Tufts fermentation lab. Her name is Dr Esther Miller, 20 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: and it sounds like she's got one of the coolest 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: jobs in the world. Yeah, given the title we went 22 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: with here Kim she a Song of Salt and Cabbage, 23 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: I guess it's a missed opportunity for us to have 24 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: done some sort of um wester Roast themed cold open 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: skit about about Kim She. Well, I guess the real 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: prince who was promised in the story is the lacto 27 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: basilla s bacteria and and he must come in order 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: to rescue the fermentation for the jar is dark and 29 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: full of spores. That's pretty good, But of course you 30 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: know there's some there. There has to have been some 31 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 1: pickling and from and or fermentation in the wester Ros books, 32 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: because it seems like they were always lengthy descriptions of 33 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: what kind of foods UH actors were eating. Yeah, but 34 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: a lot of it is I think like a classic 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: Anglo cuisine inspired, which is is actually very low. Well, 36 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to be insulting, I would say at 37 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: least the perception is that it's relatively low on on 38 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: spices and and complex flavors. It tends to be a 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: rather bland cuisine, kind of focused on grain meat and dairy, 40 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: all right, But then I do we do have to 41 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: to point out that I guess there was beer, there 42 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: was cheese, there was bread. And that's one of the 43 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: reasons that fermented foods are so fascinating because there there 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: are these things that we often forget are fermented, like 45 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: cheese and bread and chocolate, and then we have these 46 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: fermented um you know, staples of various fermented goods that 47 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: you're going to have in your your kitchen. And also 48 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: some of the more um elaborate examples. For instance, uh, 49 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: there's the kivak, which is the traditional Inuit food from Greenland, 50 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: in which little ox, these these little birds are caught 51 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: and then fermented in a seal skin and it's buried 52 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: beneath rocks. There's a great feature on this in the 53 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,119 Speaker 1: documentary series Human Planet that came out several years back 54 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: and was at the time narrated by John Hurt. I 55 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: gotta admit, as much as I love fermented foods, I 56 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: have never tried that one, and a lot of the 57 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: fermented foods that I've never really gotten into, or the 58 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: various kinds of fermented meats and dairy products from around 59 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: the world which are extremely common, though I think fermented 60 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: vegetable dishes such as kim chi have seen more of 61 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 1: an international renaissance and in recent years. Yeah, I feel 62 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: like when I was a kid, I wasn't as exposed 63 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: to as many fermented foods aside from these obviously fermented foods, 64 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: you know, like they I remember being supposed to sour 65 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: kraud but not really digging it for a long time. 66 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: But but now, well you know, is that is that 67 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: a good or bad? Uh? I'm just I'm just so 68 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: sorry for your deprived childhood. I mean, I I can 69 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: remember loving sour kroud as long as I had. One 70 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: of my earliest positive food memories is actually a memory 71 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: of eating a half sour pickle. Um. Yeah, I just 72 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's It's always been there for me, 73 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: the love of especially like fermented pickled vegetables so good. 74 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: I think I just had kind of work up to it, 75 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: like some of those strong flavors, like there's some sort 76 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: of German um, oh, some sort of purple cabbage type 77 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: thing that I also didn't have a real strong uh 78 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: attraction to at the time. But all these things have 79 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: grown on me today. I love sour kroud and I 80 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: love Kim she I love exploring the various fermented veggie 81 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: or mushroom items you'll find uh in various cuisines. And 82 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,799 Speaker 1: and my son, who is eight now, he's been pretty 83 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: pretty into all things fermented pretty much his whole life, 84 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: as long as they're not actually spicy. That's where he 85 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: has a little more of a struggle. But ultimately, I 86 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: don't know how much of this is his nature versus 87 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: nurture with him, though, Yeah, I wonder about that too, 88 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: because for minute vegetables, definitely they can have strong kind 89 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: of unfamiliar flavors and aromas that takes him getting used to, 90 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: So I would imagine that having a taste for fermented 91 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: foods is somewhat learned. Though then again, I I wonder 92 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: if there could actually be an instinct or at least 93 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: a slight predisposition that humans would have to find certain 94 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: kinds of smells and flavors associated with vegetable fermentation appetizing, 95 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: since this could be a possible vector to get useful 96 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: gut bacteria and other beneficial microbes that I think there's 97 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: good evidence that a lot of these good microbes do 98 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: actually survive the digestion process and and can help recolonize 99 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: the gut with with beneficial bacteria. And then of course 100 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: having healthy gut bacteria could provide some kind of survival advantage. 101 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 1: So I wonder it's it's possible. I can imagine that 102 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: there's some kind of instinctual predisposition that animals that like 103 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: humans could have, uh to to find these smells and 104 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: flavors appealing. And another thing I would say is that 105 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: you can contrast the appealing or at least potentially appealing 106 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: smell of fermented foods like kimchi or yogurt with smell 107 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: of food that's rotting due to an unambiguously unfriendly micro 108 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: But in these cases, our visceral reaction to the smell, 109 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: I think it's much different. It's sort of automatic, instinctive revulsion. Uh. 110 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: You know, some people might be grossed out by the 111 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: smell of kimchi or sauerkraut, But I think that negative 112 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: reaction is qualitatively different than the like, you know, hot 113 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: garbage kind of reaction people have to the smell of 114 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: like real dangerous spoilage in foods. Yeah, like the like 115 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: the actual like dead animal smell, which really connects with 116 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: us on a on a primal level, like when you 117 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: smell it, you know it. You not might not be 118 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: able to summon that smell in your head right now, 119 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: but it's undeniable when you encounter it. Um. And now 120 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: I've I've I've read some different things about about kids 121 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: in flavor just through I think virtue of of being 122 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: a parent. I know there's the the argument that you know, 123 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: since a child has a smaller body and is more 124 00:06:55,200 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: susceptible to the dangers of poisons, that that they going 125 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,559 Speaker 1: to be overly sensitive to certain strong smells or flavors. Um. 126 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: And there's also this angle. I've not done any like 127 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: full research into it, and perhaps this would be a 128 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: topic for the future, but I know that biopsychologist Julie 129 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: Manila has researched the topic a bit regarding uh, you know, uh, 130 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: whether we're born with certain food preferences in mind. And 131 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: she has some work that shows that food preferences may 132 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: be developed in the womb or during very early life. 133 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: So we're talking prenatally and postnatally, involving both the amniotic 134 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: fluid and breast milk. So if I'm understanding it correctly, 135 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: the diet of a child's biological mother can influence the 136 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: child's taste later on. Yeah, that would not be surprising 137 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: to me. I mean, I think a lot of things 138 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: from the from the parents environment can come through to 139 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: the child like that. Um. But another thing you know, 140 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about with with people's taste for fermented foods 141 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: is that it could be a psychological framing issue. You 142 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: You know, we've talked before about the research showing that 143 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: people you can take the same smell and that people 144 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: might find it appealing if you blindfold them and tell 145 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: them the smell is coming from a cheese, but find 146 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: it disgusting if you blindfold them and tell them it's 147 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: coming from a sock. Uh. For people on a Western 148 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: diet who are unfamiliar with kim chi or with other 149 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: fermented vegetables and find the smell off putting, it's possible 150 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: that it's you know, that it's similar aromas that they 151 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: would find appealing if they just had more of a 152 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: reason to associate them with, say the idea of vegetables, 153 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: because like some of the aromas that come off of 154 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: kim chi can smell kind of cheesy, and that's a 155 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: strange thing to smell coming off of vegetables if you're 156 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: not used to it. Yeah, I've I think I've voiced 157 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: a similar thing with Durian fruit before. Durian fruit, of course, 158 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: is is beloved in many parts of the world, but 159 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: sometimes is less appreciated, certainly in western circles, and I 160 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: think part of that is, like, if my my take anyway, 161 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: is that you approach the Durian as being a cheese 162 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: and not a fruit, then then that's going to dismantle 163 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: some of these associations you you make, because when you 164 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: take in the aroma of the Durian fruit, you might think, well, 165 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: that that doesn't smell like I expect a fruit to smell. 166 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: IM more accustomed to a really sweet smell with a 167 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: fruit or something much milder. But if you approach it 168 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: thinking cheese, then I think you're in a better position 169 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: to enjoy it. Yeah. I think that's a really good point, 170 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: and it almost makes me wonder if there is there 171 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: a certain kind of meditation practice that has been honed 172 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: in order to ready the mind to experience new flavors 173 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: and aromas as pleasurable when you're not used to them. 174 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: I wonder if there is such a thing. I think maybe, Yeah, 175 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: maybe just a general sort of centering of the self 176 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: is probably would probably be helpful in those cases. I 177 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: do want to point out to the in terms of 178 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: Durian fruit, I don't have a lot of experience eating 179 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: Durian fruit, so anytime I have encountered it, I am 180 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: very much I feel like encountering it as an outsider 181 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: to like regular consumptions. So I would love to hear 182 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: from anyone out there who is, like, you know, grown 183 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,359 Speaker 1: up with Durian fruit and how you like, because ultimately 184 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: my whole think of it a cheese and not a 185 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: fruit thing that maybe entirely based as well in my 186 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: situation as kind of a Durian outsider, yeah, I can 187 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: see that. But obviously, I mean tastes that were once 188 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: unfamiliar to us can become very very central to our 189 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: way of experiencing food in the world. I mean, so 190 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: I grew up loving pickled vegetables, but I did not, um, 191 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: I did not grow up with kim chi, and now 192 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: kim chi is one of my favorite foods. I mean, 193 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: if you, if you like, pin me down and said, like, 194 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: you know, uh, if you could only eat one kind 195 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: of food the rest of your life, what would it be. 196 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: I would try to reach for something like, well, something 197 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: that could be served with bon schon, you know, all 198 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: those little dishes like Korean side dishes of various different 199 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: vegetable preparations and kim chi and things like that. That's 200 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: the bulls eye for me. That's like the best thing, 201 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: and it wasn't always there. So like clearly, our orientations 202 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: about food can change as we mature, or maybe I 203 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: shouldn't say mature, just as we go on in life. 204 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: So in terms of just fermentation in general, we'll get 205 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: back more specifically to kimchi here in a bit. I 206 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: was reading a bit about it from fermentation expert sand 207 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: Or Cats. I'm sure he's come up in your research 208 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: as well. Um uh, you know, often cited and had 209 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: written several books on the topic, and sauerkraut king. Yeah. 210 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: Cats points out that if you venture into any restaurant 211 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 1: on the planet, if you dig into any cuisine, you're 212 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: going to find products of fermentation. And again this includes 213 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: more obvious examples such as you know, the sour krout 214 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: and the kimchi, but it also means bread. She's saladdressing alcohol, etcetera. 215 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: In fact, you know, he contends that it's hard to 216 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: get through the day without engaging with a product of fermentation. 217 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: All right, so we're naming fairly disparate seeming food items. 218 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: I mean, what do bread and cheese and sauerkraut and 219 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: kimchi really have in common? What? What? What is it? 220 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: It is the core process of fermentation. Well, in a nutshell, 221 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: we're talking about the chemical breakdown of a substance by bacteria, yeats, 222 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: or other micro organisms, typically involving uh effervescence and the 223 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: giving off of heat. Most notably, it enables humans to 224 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: preserve food and store it for travel, um or for 225 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, for hard times, and as such it was 226 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: often vital for human expansion into harsher climates. Is something 227 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: a way that you could take your food with you 228 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: and it would survive and be edible when you get 229 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: to your destination, or allow you to to have food 230 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 1: in a destination that is that is harsher, right. I mean, 231 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: one of the big roles of fermentation I think clearly is, 232 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: especially the fermentation of vegetables, is preserving vegetables and products 233 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: through the winter. The traditional preparation cycle for kimchi involves 234 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: packing it into pots in the autumn that can be 235 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: eaten throughout the winter, I guess throughout the rest of 236 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: the year, when fresh vegetables would be hard to come by. So, 237 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: as is often the case with food traditions, I think 238 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: many forms of fermentation, vegetable fermentation likely followed a path 239 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: of beginning with a mistake and then moving to utilitarian 240 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: innovation as a preservative, but eventually just becoming a taste preference, 241 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: becoming something people liked because it's good. But I also 242 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: wanted to go back to a note you had on 243 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: the idea of effervescence in fermentation. This, this idea of 244 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: effervescence or bubbling. Uh, this is actually one of my 245 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: favorite things about certain kinds of kimchi. It's not always 246 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: like this, but certain kinds of kimchi not only have 247 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 1: these great complex flavors and pleasing crunch, it sometimes has 248 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: something you don't find in other solid foods, which is 249 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: a palpable taste of carbonation in the mouth. Sometimes kim 250 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: chi can kind of bubble and fizz and zing in 251 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: your mouth while you're chewing on it, the same way 252 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: that a sip of a carbonated drink does. And and 253 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: this is one thing I really love that this bubbling 254 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: property of fermentation is all so what creates. Of course, 255 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: you know the crumb structure, the holes in a loaf 256 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: of bread. But these bubbles are gas given off by 257 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: the yeast in bread as they metabolize the sugar in 258 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: the dough. The effervescent property in uh in kimchi, of course, 259 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: is the is the CEO two produced by the bacteria 260 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: as they break down the sugars in the cabbage. But 261 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: this effervescent property of giving off bubbles or gas was 262 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: actually probably where the word fermentation comes from. It's derived 263 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: ultimately from the Latin word for very, meaning to boil 264 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: or to seethe, and ancient Latin speakers probably would have 265 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: been able to observe that as grape juice sat in 266 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: vats and the natural yeasts turned sugar content into alcohol 267 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: to make wine, it would give off bubbles as if 268 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: it were somehow boiling without an external heat source. But anyway, 269 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: so I was reading about fermentation in a in a 270 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: book called the Noma Guide to Fermentation is written by 271 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: the staff of the famous Nordic Cuisine restaurant. But there 272 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: there are several ways they point out that you can 273 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: define fermentation which are basically all scientifically correct at different 274 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: levels of zooming in the first is that fermentation is 275 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: the transformation of foods by microorganisms. You let the microbes 276 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: do something to the food. The second is that it's 277 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: the transformation of foods by enzymes produced by the micro organism. Specifically, 278 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: what they're doing is they're participating in the chemical breakdown 279 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: of molecules in the food. So they're breaking down long 280 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: starch chains into different pieces of those chains, getting a 281 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: little different sugars and things. They're breaking down long protein 282 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: chains into smaller pieces of those chains. But then finally 283 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: they say it is quote the process by which a 284 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: micro organism converts sugar into another substance in the absence 285 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: of oxygen and uh ands. As we know that there 286 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: are different microbes that are involved in different kinds of fermentation. 287 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: So for example, you've got yeast, which is a fungal 288 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: micro it's a fungus and it's the agent primarily involved 289 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: in the creation of bread, but also wine and beer. 290 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: While the agent most important to the fermentation of vegetables 291 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: like cabbage in sourkroud and kim chi is lactic acid bacteria. 292 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: And we'll get into more detail on that later, but 293 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: the gist is that if you take a bunch of 294 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: vegetables such as cabbage, doesn't have to be cabbage, but 295 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: this is often the vegetable used you put salt on them, 296 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: they'll kind of whilt down, release water, create a brine 297 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: that's salty in nature, and the salt creates an environment 298 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: where certain kinds of bacteria that are tolerant of salt 299 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: can thrive and overtake other microbes which are less tolerant 300 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: of salt. And as they take over, these lactic acid 301 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: bacteria further drive out other biological contaminants with the byproducts 302 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: of their metabolism. In the case of lactic acid bacteria, 303 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: as they eat the sugars and the vegetables and the brine, 304 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: they excrete lactic acid, which of course is an acid. 305 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: It lowers the h of the brine. It acts as 306 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: a preservative, so it inhibits the growth of other microbes, 307 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: kind of like if you had added an acid directly, 308 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: like if you added vinegar or some of their acid 309 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: to pickle your food, except a major difference is that 310 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: the flavors that come out of the bacterial acid production 311 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: process are so much more complex and rich than the 312 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: sort of one note flavor of a simple dash of vinegar. Now, fermentation, 313 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: of course, uh as I think is already coming out, 314 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: occurs without human intention all the time. No humans are 315 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: required for this, and examples range from the fermentation of 316 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: fallen fruit to the interuric fermentation inside a creature's digestive system. Yeah, 317 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: and this is actually an evolutionary adaptation. Interect fermentation is 318 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: really interesting. So it is a symbiotic adaptation involving multiple 319 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: different species working together, and it's used by many animals, 320 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: including ruminant herbivores like sheep and cattle and camels, and 321 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: it allows them to survive on a diet of tough, 322 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: cellulose riddled plant matter that animals like us simply couldn't digest. 323 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: I mean, if you and I go out and eat 324 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: a bunch of grass. My dog tries it sometimes, but 325 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: I don't think it really helps them all that much. 326 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: Um and we we we just would not be able 327 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: to get much energy out of it at all. But 328 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: there's an advantage to surviving on a diet like this 329 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: if you can. Obviously, tough plant matter like grass is abundant, 330 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: it's easy to capture there's lots of it. It doesn't 331 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: run or fight back, but it's just hard to get 332 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: useful chemical energy out of it. So animals with natural 333 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,719 Speaker 1: enteric fermentation use the help of a cultivated microbiome. They 334 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: have chambers in their digestive system specifically for the microbial 335 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 1: breakdown of tough plant matter, and it transforms all that 336 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,479 Speaker 1: grass and stuff like that into simple sugars that can 337 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: be easily used as energy by the animals. So it's 338 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: almost like these room and herbivores have a kim chi 339 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: jar inside their digestive system. But you know, if you've 340 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: ever tried to make kimche at home, which I am 341 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: doing right now, one thing you know is that as 342 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: the fermentation happens, you either need to have a ventable 343 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: lid on the jar that will allow gas to escape, 344 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: or you need to burp it frequently. You need to 345 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: take the top off and let the gas out, or 346 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: pressure can really build up with some disastrous consequences, which 347 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: we can talk about at a little more later. And 348 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: a similar thing actually goes on with animals that undergo 349 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: terrek fermentation, because these room at herbivores end up having 350 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 1: to burp out an awful lot of byproduct gas, generally methane, right, 351 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: and in large enough quantity, which is generally the case 352 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: with say cows that are that are that are raised 353 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: by humans, that actually adds up and has an impact 354 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: on climate. Yeah, that's absolutely right, And in fact, I 355 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: know they're ongoing projects to try to fiddle with that, 356 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: to say, like, can we actually get down the level 357 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: of methane that is exhaled by these room and herbivores 358 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: by making certain tweaks to say their gut mic orobiota 359 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: or two there, or to exactly what the sugars in 360 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: their diet are and things like that. So that's cows. 361 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: But when it comes to humans, and specifically when it 362 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: comes to the intentional use of fermentation, of the fermentation process, 363 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: this is widely considered a Neolithic technology. We're gonna take 364 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: a quick break, but when we come back, we will 365 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: dive into what we know of the history of fermentation. Alright, 366 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: we're back. So Robert, you you've teased us about the 367 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: history of fermentation, saying that intentional use of fermentation of 368 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 1: foods by humans is something that goes back to the 369 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: Stone Age, the Neolithic era, right, you know, at least 370 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: so evidence of fermented beverages in China, for instance, seemed 371 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: to date back to the seventh millennium BC, based on 372 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: evidence from a Neolithic village in Henan Province UH and 373 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: this this evidence revealed a fermented mixture of rice, honey 374 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: and fruit. This was mentioned in um in a in 375 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: a paper titled Fermented Beverages in pre and Protohistoric China 376 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: from P. And A. S. H in two thousand four 377 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: written by A McGovern at all and then I was 378 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: also looking at a two thousands sixteen study from Adam 379 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: Bothius in the Journal of Archaeological Science, and that puts 380 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: a date on Scandinavian fermentation evidence to nine thousand, two 381 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: hundred years ago during the early Mesolithic UH. This would 382 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: have been processed fish, So the idea here is that 383 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: they were using something described as a gutter to ferment 384 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: fish in preserving it for later. The author discovered evidence 385 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 1: of this gutter along with vast quantities of well preserved 386 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: fish bones to support this argument. And fermented fish products 387 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: are actually very common now you might not know that 388 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: you've been consuming them, but examples include Worcestershire sauce. This 389 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: is a fermented fish product or of course Asian fish 390 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: sauces nonplaw. These are made by salting fish and then 391 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: using the extracted liquid that comes out as the strong, 392 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: deeply complex salty flavoring agent. Another example would be an 393 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: ancient Roman food known as garum, which was actually in 394 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: many many ways similar to Asian fish sauce. So fermented 395 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: fish products are are actually in wide use around the 396 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: world today. You might not always think about them being 397 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: the product of rotting fish but or you know, controlled 398 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: rot but that's what they are. Yeah. And if you 399 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: want more on garam and in various fish fermentation in 400 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: products sauces, we did an episode of Invention about ketchup 401 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: and and how all this ties into the history of 402 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: the product we now know as ketchup. Yeah. Now, as 403 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: for the fermentation of vegetables, that's key to what we're 404 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: talking about here with Kimche And it's believed that this 405 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: too came before the agricultural revolution, so before we were 406 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: able as humans to harness crop technology to control uh 407 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: and manipulate the way crops grow for our benefit, we 408 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: harness the power to preserve those goods through fermentation. This 409 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: is fascinating and it reminds me of the evidence that 410 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: we've discussed previously that the invention of bread probably predates 411 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: the invention of agriculture, before wheat and other grains were 412 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: staple crops that people grew on purpose. It looks like 413 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: we have pretty good evidence that Stone Age people's were 414 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: harvesting wild grains such as iron corn, wheat, grass, taking, 415 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: taking those grains and then baking bread out of it. 416 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: The evidence we talked about was a paper published in 417 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: in p N A s by Iran's oteg we at 418 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: All and basically the authors here, we're looking at an 419 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: archaeological site in Jordan's that was an ancient cooking site 420 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: from about fourteen thousand years ago when they found matter 421 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: that looks very much like breadcrumbs there. So these would 422 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: be bread, predating the agricultural revolution by thousands of years now. 423 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: As for kimchi itself, so yeah, we've already described it 424 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: a bit and talked about it a bit. We're gonna 425 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: do a little more detail here. There are a lot 426 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: of fermentent items out there that we can compare to kimchi. 427 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: But Joe, I don't I don't know if you'd agree 428 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: with this, but I feel like in many ways, there's 429 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: nothing quite like it. Oh yeah, I mean I love 430 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: for minute vegetables generally, but kim chi is in a 431 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: class all of its own. It is a culinary suet Gennaris. Now, Now, 432 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: at a very basic level, what we're talking about here 433 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: is a traditional side dish of salted and fermented vegetables, 434 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: generally something like napa cabbage Korean radish, made with a 435 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: varying selection of traditional seasonings. Yeah, A very common preparation 436 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 1: for kimchi would be you take napa cabbage, you salt 437 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: it to to begin a wilting process that will bring 438 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: water out of it, and then you prepare a brine 439 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: or a marinade that will be made out of a 440 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: Korean chili flake, often go chugaru, which is a red 441 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: chili flake um. And then ginger garlic, often some kind 442 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: of fermented fish products such as salted shrimp or fish 443 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: sauce uh. And then other other ingredients such as maybe 444 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: graded carrots, scallions um. I might I might be leaving 445 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: a few things out here, but that's a pretty standard preparation. Now. 446 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: I was reading about kimchi in the history of Korean 447 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: go Chu Go go Chang and Kimchi in the Journal 448 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: of Ethnic Foods from And This was by Kwan at 449 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: All and it points out that you know, as you 450 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: might imagine, fermentation in Korea began as a means of 451 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: preserving vegetables. Normally the Chinese cabbage or kimchi cabbage as 452 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: it is known today, it decomposes at normal temperatures due 453 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: to the action of micro organisms. The authors here point 454 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: out that specifically with with modern kim chi, you add 455 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: red pepper powder containing capsation to the cabbage and this 456 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: suppresses the growth of of putrefying bacteria and promotes lactic 457 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: acid bacteria. The micro organisms here the authors where I 458 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: grow and change into a form that emans can consume. Now, 459 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: the basic process here is responsible for other key Korean 460 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: fer minted food products as well UH, such as a 461 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: go go chang, uh, Chian cook chang, and doan jang. 462 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: But one of the key ingredients in modern kimchi is 463 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: the go chu, the Korean red pepper UH. This powder, 464 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: which again is involved in arresting beatification and leads to 465 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: the production of lactic acid. And there are different varieties 466 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: of go go chu. I think they're like four main 467 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: categories now in terms of when the gochu peppers become 468 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: involved in the process, apparently there I was, I was 469 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: not really prepared for this, but apparently there's some back 470 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: and forth about when they actually enter Korean cuisine. Yeah, 471 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: I was surprised to find that there's some kind of controversy. 472 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: It's apparently a somewhat contested issue. Uh that's infused maybe 473 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: with modern political concerns, like when exactly different types of 474 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: kim chi came to exist. Yeah. For instance, that Quan 475 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: paper that I that I had just mentioned, uh in 476 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: that they contend that quote go chu started to grow 477 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: on the Korean peninsula a few billion years ago, and 478 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: it is safe to say it is original to Korea. 479 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: So that's that is very much um uh in disagreement 480 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: with with some of the information we're gonna get to 481 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: here in a second, but I wanted to go ahead 482 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: and put that out there. There's also apparently an argument 483 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 1: that kim chi is less than a century old, with 484 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: the pepper being introduced to Korea via Japan during World 485 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: War Two, but this is strongly dismissed in many sources, 486 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: including a two thousand fifteen paper by jag at All 487 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: in Journal of Ethnic Foods, citing the Chronicles of the 488 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: Three Kingdoms of Korea as a as an historical source, 489 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: dating kimchi back at least fifteen hundred years in Korean 490 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: culinary tradition. The argument here is that it it would 491 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: have been invented thousands of years ago. Uh, and then 492 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: but bolical, we see it at least some evidence of 493 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: it fifteen hundred years ago. Yeah, based on the historical 494 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,479 Speaker 1: sources I was reading, it seems like the most likely 495 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: thing is that kimchi is definitely an ancient Korean food, 496 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: but the introduction of peppers specifically is more recent. Right, Yeah, 497 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: that seems to be the case that you don't you 498 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: don't need, or you at least didn't need peppers for 499 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: kim chi, uh, you know, throughout most of its history, 500 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: but then you end up seeing the introduction of these peppers. 501 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: I was reading The Colombian Exchange, A History of Disease, 502 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: Food and Ideas by Nathan Nunn and Nancy Kuan, who 503 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: point out that the peppers used here, the peppers alone, 504 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 1: not the Korean fermentation traditions, etcetera, have a New World origin. 505 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: So uh, these peppers would have originated in areas of 506 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: what is today Bolivia and southern Brazil. From there they 507 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: traveled into meso America and the Caribbean before the arrival 508 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: of Europeans, who then took it elsewhere. So along these lengths, 509 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: it's the Korean chili pepper was probably introduced to Korea 510 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: in the early sixteenth century, and the actual kimchi tradition 511 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: was much older, however, and seems to have its roots 512 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: in Chinese pickling. And here's what J. Bock Park wrote 513 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: about it in Red Pepper and kim she in Korea 514 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: in the Chili Pepper Institute paper from nineteen quote, it's 515 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: thought that kim she may have originated from Chinese pickles. 516 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: These pickles were brought to Korea and we're altered into 517 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: several types of kimchi to suit the taste of Koreans 518 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: during the Sheila and Korea dynasties. That's C through and 519 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: cen through two respectively. Uh. Anyway, the author continues, quote, 520 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: Since red peppers were imported to Korea in the early 521 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: part of the seventeenth century, whole cabbage kimchi and other 522 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: kim she prepared with hot red pepper became popular. Yeah, 523 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: and this matches up with everything I was reading. Uh. 524 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: And and in fact, while go chugaru the red pepper 525 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: flake is a very important ingredient in some of the 526 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: most popular forms of kimchi, I believe there are still 527 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: forms of kim she made that don't involve it, that 528 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: might be known as like white kimchi, that might in 529 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: fact be more similar to the older tradition that would 530 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: of course involve salting the cabbage, it would involve adding 531 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: flavorings to the to the brian or the marinade. But 532 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: would but but don't bring in the hot peppers. Yeah. 533 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: So I know. I do want to stress though, that 534 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: we've only briefly gone over the history here, but obviously 535 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: we've touched on various elements that involve colonial and imperial expansion. 536 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: So I think it's it's it's obvious why uh Sometimes 537 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: um you know, some of these are very impassioned arguments. Um. Plus, 538 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: it seems like it is difficult to overstate just how 539 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: important kim she is in Korean culinary culture. Uh. There's 540 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: a two thousand sixteen article on NPRS The Salt titled 541 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: how South Korea uses kimchi to connect to the world 542 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: and beyond, and it shares the following quote. Kimchi is 543 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: not just cabbage salad. It is essential to the culture 544 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: of the country. There are hundreds of different varieties of 545 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: kimchi and Korea, and about one point five million tons 546 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: of it is consumed each year. Even the Korean stock 547 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: market reflects this obsession. The Kimchi index tracks win Napa, 548 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: cabbage and a twelve other ingredients chili, carrots, radishes, and 549 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: anchovies among them, are at their best prices. Yeah, there's 550 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: been a pretty concerted effort over the years by the 551 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: South Korean government to promote kimchi as a as a 552 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: sort of trendy food worldwide. And I can't you know, 553 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: I can't say I blame them like that. You've got 554 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: you've got this great culinary tradition. Why not use that 555 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: to to help engender love for your culture around the world. Yeah, yeah, 556 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: share it with the world. And that's where you see 557 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: initiatives like the Kimchi bus. I don't know if you 558 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: ran across articles about this, No, I didn't um. This 559 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: was which was supported in some part by the South 560 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: Korean government, and it you know, I don't think it's 561 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: active right now, but it at least was traveling around 562 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: to various countries and spreading traditional Korean food and kimchi. Um, 563 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, very very much spreading the word of kimchi. 564 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: It's like an Iowa campaign bus for kimchi. The kimchi 565 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: is going to get out and give a speech. Now. 566 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: That article from The Salt it also points out some 567 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: other uh cool facts about about the culture of kimchi 568 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: and in related foods. At points out that kim jang, 569 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: the tradition of making kimchi, has long been a unifying 570 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: tradition amid Korean villages and a sustaining one through periods 571 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: of hardship, and that kim jang was even added to 572 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: the UNESCO Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity, 573 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: which is pretty impressive. Absolutely so. Again, the kim jang 574 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: would be these, uh these events where people gather together 575 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: to make their their pots of kim chi in the 576 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: autumn that can be buried for the winter or the 577 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: rest of the year. Yeah. Yeah. Based on this article's description, 578 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, a sort of a community 579 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: wide or even cross community kimchi making enterprise, spreading the 580 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: labor intensive process out amid a large group of people. 581 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: So it's not just you know, my household is making 582 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: kimchee today. It's no we we as a community, you know, 583 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: or even we as you know, as people are making 584 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: kim che today. Well, you know, I was telling you 585 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,959 Speaker 1: about this the other day actually that, uh, my experiments 586 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: in making kimchi at home have been a solitary project 587 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,719 Speaker 1: so far. But I can absolutely see how making kimchi 588 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: would be a really fun social family and friends kind 589 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: of project. Is something fun to do with the kids 590 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: because like, the kids can maybe work on massaging the 591 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: salt into the cabbage and massaging in the marinade between 592 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: the leaves, and you can talk while you're doing it. 593 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like an ideal social food preparation situation. Yeah, 594 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: it sounds fun. You were mentioning the specific jars you 595 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: have for it, and I think we actually have one 596 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: of those jars, because I think we have some sort 597 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: of Sauer kraut kit that just hasn't been used yet, 598 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, we've been eyeing, and so that might it 599 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: seems like that might be usable for this process as well. 600 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So to further clarify out there what what 601 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: I had been offering to share with Robert was was 602 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: burp lids for jars, which I got, which allows you to, 603 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: you know, in case you forget about the kimchi you've 604 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: got going in the jar, It's not going to blow 605 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: the lid off or anything. It's got a little vent 606 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: where if the pressure really builds up inside the CEO 607 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: two can escape out the vent. Now, speaking of pressure, 608 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: I spaces. This gets right Intoto. The next thing I 609 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about here that I know you were 610 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: excited about as well, Joe. Yeah, and that's you have 611 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: something as as culturally important as kimchi. Uh. This is 612 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that kimchi has gone into space. 613 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: So in two thousand eight, South Korea's Uh sillan ye 614 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: was selected to be the country's first astronaut, and the 615 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: government apparently had worked nearly a decade to create uh 616 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: kimchi as well as other Korean dishes they could potentially 617 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: be taken into space that we're space ready, uh for 618 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: just such an individual. Now, as for why why take 619 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 1: kim she into space? Well, okay, so there are a 620 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: few different reasons. So one of them, of course, we 621 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: again we've touched on the cultural importance of the dish. 622 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: If you're sending an astronaut into space, that is not 623 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 1: only a scientific endeavor, it is you know, it's about 624 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, national pride to a large extent, So it 625 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: makes sense to want to send something as important and 626 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: is kim chi up with them on an individual level. 627 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: We've talked about this in the past concerning space food. 628 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: You know that this is um going into spaces physically 629 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: and mentally um you know, exhausting endeavor. So if you 630 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: have something meaningful for them to eat up there, you know, 631 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: some sort of some sort of food that that not 632 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: only sustains them but perhaps reminds them of home, etcetera. Like, 633 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: that's that's that's a win. So there's been there's always 634 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: been an effort to do that with the food that 635 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 1: is sent up with astronauts. But then on top of that, 636 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: micro gravity often is often described as uh is living 637 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: in microscrap. Gravity rather is often described as being in 638 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: this kind of state of perpetual nasal blockage, right, because 639 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: everything is just kind of you know, without gravity, everything 640 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 1: just kind of moves up and it just floats free. 641 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: So this is one of the reasons that it's kind 642 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: of difficult to taste food in space, and so you 643 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: want something with a strong flavor, perhaps spice to it, 644 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: if you really want to to to taste anything. And 645 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that NASA's shrimp cocktail has 646 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: apparently been popular for years. Not because people want those 647 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, those shrimp that have been kind of stepped 648 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: on orbit, but it's that it's the horse radish in 649 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: the cocktail sauce, like, it has a strong spicy flavor 650 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: and it can kind of clear your head a bit, 651 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, it opens up those nasal passages. There's 652 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: there's something there you can detect as as far as 653 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,839 Speaker 1: flavor and aroma goes um. But another thing I wanted 654 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: to emphasize again, uh, the idea of a Korean astronaut 655 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: having access to kim chi as part of their food 656 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: in space. This is not just important because obviously it 657 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: is part of Korean cuisine, but that it is such 658 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: a regular part of traditional Korean culinary life, that um, 659 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: that kim chi. You know, it's not unusual for kim 660 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: chi to be served at basically every meal on every 661 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 1: on a Korean table, right, Yeah, it is. It is 662 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 1: the the traditional side dish, so you know, it would 663 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: be so in a similar sense. You know, it's like, 664 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: of course there's ketchup in space or some version of it, 665 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: because that is like the staple of some people's diets, right, 666 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: Kimchi is very much the same affair. But the idea 667 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: of taking kimchi into space, well, of course a wonderful 668 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 1: idea as far as the flavor and the comfort that 669 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: that it can provide, it immediately calls to mind some 670 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: particular hazards in the case of kimchi that are not 671 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: the case with other foods. Because have you ever seen 672 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: what happens when there is a sealed jar of kim 673 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: chi without a burping lid, and the fermentation gets a 674 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:31,919 Speaker 1: little too aggressive, gets a little frisky. Uh, you should 675 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: look up video of this, Robert. And so the microbes 676 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: inside the fermentation will produce c O two as they 677 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: do their business, and they can produce so much c 678 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: O two that they can basically blow the lids off 679 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 1: of jars, or maybe maybe if they don't blow the 680 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,919 Speaker 1: lid off when you open the jar, suddenly it's like 681 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,439 Speaker 1: when you know, it's like mintos in a diet coke. 682 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 1: It's like spewing spicy marinate everywhere, and the cabbage puffs 683 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 1: up out of the top like you know, a muffin 684 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: coming out of its mold, or like a Yorkshire pudding. Uh, 685 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: it can. It can look really funny. And I've actually 686 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,479 Speaker 1: read stories of this being a real problem for people 687 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: who have tried transporting kimchi in luggage and airplanes. I 688 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 1: don't know if they let you do that anymore, but 689 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 1: this at least has been a problem for some people. 690 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 1: I'd read about it in the past, Like you would 691 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: take a jar overseas with you or something, and sometimes 692 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: the jar can explode in your luggage and soak everything 693 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: in spicy, rotting cabbage water, which is delicious but not 694 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: really something you want to fully saturate your underwear. Um 695 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,760 Speaker 1: that that that article from The Salt that I mentioned earlier. 696 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: They have a little bit more about the about taking 697 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: kimchi into space, and they actually talked to you, asked 698 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: younaut about this, asking you know, what was it like. 699 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: And the one thing they point out is that for 700 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: the kimchie to go into space, it had to be 701 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: radiated to kill all of the micro organisms in it, 702 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: which he says left it looking quote so saggy. It 703 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: looked like it was a hundred years old. So it apparently, 704 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, didn't taste maybe like terrestrial kimchi, but apparently 705 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: it tasted. It tasted enough like kimchi that it did 706 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: the job. You know. It um It packed the you know, 707 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: the spicy fermented punch, and it reminded them of home. 708 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: So Nitian accomplished. Well, this is an important point because Okay, 709 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: so obviously there there are multiple reasons. You'd probably want 710 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: to kill all of the microbes in the kimchi, and 711 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: you'd want to radiate it before you take it into space. 712 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: You definitely don't want kimchi blowing the lid off of 713 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: its jar inside a space station. That would be uh, 714 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: that could be disastrous, like spills are not good in microgravity. 715 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 1: But anyway, it really emphasizes that that kimchi is at 716 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: its core a living product, and you can have kimchi 717 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: that's been sterilized. I mean sometimes people sometimes I cook 718 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,720 Speaker 1: it before I eat it, especially when it gets older. 719 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: You know, you can saute in the pan and add 720 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: as a as an ingredient to things. And then of course, 721 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: like kimchi fried rice, fantastic delic just but at that 722 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,359 Speaker 1: point it is sterile before cooking it or before radiating it. 723 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 1: If you've just got a jar of kim chie sitting 724 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: in your fridge, I mean, this is a living organism. This, 725 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: this kim chi that you're eating. The life goes on 726 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: within it, and it will even though the fermentation will 727 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: be much slowed down by the temperatures inside a refrigerator. Uh, 728 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: it is still alive and things are still happening there. 729 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: It is still maturing, it is still evolving as an ecosystem. Absolutely. 730 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: Now speaking of that that ecosystem, let's bring everything back 731 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: down from space. Uh, not only to the Earth, but 732 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: under the earth. Because we've already referenced a few types 733 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: of fermentation. Uh. That entails bearing a vessel or using 734 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,359 Speaker 1: some sort of a gutter, you know, made in earth 735 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: or stone. It's worth noting that the traditional means of 736 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: creating kim she also entails bearing, uh, the the container 737 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: bearing what Michael Pollen in his two thousand book Cooked 738 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: described as a child old sized earthenware croc. So I 739 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: wanted to read just an excerpt from that that excellent book, which, 740 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: by the way, mentions kimchi a lot. So if you 741 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: if you're looking for, you know, a really good book 742 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: about about food science and history, you know, a horse 743 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: always turned to Michael Pollan, but particularly this book has 744 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: a lot of kimchi in it. But here's what he 745 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: had to say. Quote. Nowadays, pit fermentation strikes most of 746 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: us as primitive, strange, and unsanitary. Yet we think nothing 747 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 1: of aging cheese is underground in caves, which is not 748 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 1: so very different? And how different is a pit fermentation 749 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: really from fermenting food in a croc? Earthenware, as it's called, 750 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: is really just earth once removed, cleaner and more portable, perhaps, 751 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: but otherwise the same basic idea. Even today, Koreans bury 752 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 1: their child sized crocs of kimchi in the backyard in 753 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,720 Speaker 1: order to maintain the even cool conditions that the lacto 754 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: bacilly prefer. The earthenware croc is a good reminder that 755 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,959 Speaker 1: every ferment is food and drink stolen or borrowed from 756 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: the earth by temporarily diverting its microbial gravitational pull to 757 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 1: our own ends. Everyone knows who stole the power of 758 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: fire from the gods for the benefit of humankind, but 759 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: who is the prometheus of pickling. That sounds like a 760 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: great story to where is I would be shocked if 761 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: there was not some mythical tradition that had a story 762 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: of a god giving the gift of pickling or fermentation 763 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 1: to humans. Yeah, it's seen. I hadn't haven't had a 764 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: chance to look into it, but I would assume that 765 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: some god or another would have that at least on 766 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 1: their their resume. You know. For Paullen's part, he goes 767 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 1: on in this book to think, well, okay, pickling, fermentation, 768 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: these are not going to be as as jazzy as 769 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:51,879 Speaker 1: killing animals or um or or certainly creating fire, these 770 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: other acts of early human endeavor that were so important. 771 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: But there's still there are others, including sand or cats 772 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier. Who has a only put it on 773 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: par with fire in our history, saying like, like pickling, 774 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: um fermentation, Uh, these processes are up there with our 775 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: fire technology in terms of their importance to our our 776 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: our history. Well, yeah, I would say, especially if you 777 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 1: go with you Remember we talked previously about the importance 778 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: of bread in the development of human civilization because of 779 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: the kinds of nutrition that it could provide relative to 780 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: its own ingredients raw, and of course fermentation is an 781 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: important part of many bread so there are also unleavened breads. 782 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: But you know, yeah, so I think it's there at 783 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 1: the heart. I don't know if it's quite at the 784 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: level of fire, but especially if you're going for like 785 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: the richness of human life and pleasure and foods and 786 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: all that, it's got to be right up there. Now, 787 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:48,840 Speaker 1: I do want to say something real quick about the 788 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: idea of the prometheus of pickling. Now, in this case, 789 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: I think pollen is is using pickling a little bit informally. 790 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 1: But there is a distinction to be made between pickling 791 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: and fermentation. Basically, pickling is preserving food with a salt brine, 792 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 1: while fermentation involves bacteria. So some pickled foods are also fermented, 793 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,240 Speaker 1: but they don't have to be. Yeah, Like, for example, 794 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: you can make pickled foods that have no microbial action 795 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:14,959 Speaker 1: in them at all. Like you just dump a bunch 796 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: of like vinegar and other flavors that you can make 797 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: a pickle brine out of vinegar and salt and sugar 798 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,879 Speaker 1: or something like that, and it will be so vinegary 799 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: that nothing will live within it. So there's no fermentation 800 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: going on at all. Yeah, Like I do some of 801 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: these box meals, um like you know, Martha Meles, etcetera. 802 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: And uh, and they'll often have me do some like 803 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: very quick fridge pickles, or sometimes they don't even go 804 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 1: in the fridge. And I have to say, sometimes I 805 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: feel like I doubt myself. I'm like, am I really 806 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,879 Speaker 1: making something that I can call it pickle? Or did 807 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 1: I just throw some salt at some cucumbers for like 808 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:49,839 Speaker 1: ten minutes? Oh, you can call it a pickle. It's 809 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: just not fermented. I mean, pickling is is a broader umbrella. 810 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: Um and and there are major differences in flavor. I'm 811 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 1: sure you've noticed. Like you can achieve the same preservative 812 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: fact either by salting cabbage allowing the lactic acid bacteria 813 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: to thrive, which in turn produces lactic acid, which lowers 814 00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 1: the pH of the environment and preserves the cabbage. Or 815 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: you can just dump a bunch of acid like vinegar 816 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: directly onto the food and just cut out the bacterial middleman. 817 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: But you're losing a lot when you do that, because 818 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: the bacterial middleman actually makes a huge difference in the aroma, taste, 819 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 1: and texture of the final product that the bacterial middleman 820 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: produces a much greater diversity of flavorful compounds. Vinegar pickled 821 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: foods can be great. I like them sometimes, but they 822 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,919 Speaker 1: are fairly one note. Fermented foods, on the other hand, 823 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: or very often described as funky and complex because of 824 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 1: these wide ranges of of different flavorful compounds that come 825 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: out of the microbial metabolism just one example, and there 826 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 1: are tons of them. But for for example, the cabbage 827 00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: fermentation process in many kinds of kimchi produce is not 828 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,439 Speaker 1: only lactic acid, but compounds like diocetal, which in other 829 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: contexts diocetel is known to produce a distinctly buttery taste. Sometimes, 830 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 1: for example, it's used as a flavoring in popcorn quote 831 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,279 Speaker 1: butter um. But this is one of the reasons that 832 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 1: fermented vegetables like kim chi can sometimes take on these 833 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: counterintuitively dairy reminiscent flavors buttery, nous, cheesiness despite having no 834 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 1: dairy content. Uh. And you might have encountered a similar 835 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,840 Speaker 1: flavor crossover from alcoholic beverages like wine, like if you 836 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: ever had a a chardonnay that tasted strangely like butter Uh. 837 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: There could be multiple reasons for that, but a major 838 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 1: one is diocetle. Diocetal from the metabolic processes of lactic 839 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: acid bacteria in the wine could be partly responsible for 840 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: that buttery flavor. And anyway, it's it's all of these 841 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: metabolic byproducts of the lactic acid bacteria that that create 842 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: this richness and complexity of flavor that comes along with 843 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: lacto fermented vegetables like kimchi. Okay, we need to take 844 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: a quick break, but when we come back, I'm going 845 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: to be chatting about vegetable fermentation with Dr Esther Miller. 846 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: Thank thank We are back, and now we're going to 847 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: head straight into my chat with Dr Esther Miller, who 848 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,480 Speaker 1: studies fermentation and microbial ecology at a center called the 849 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:28,240 Speaker 1: Wolf Lab at Tufts University. Here we go. Esther Miller, 850 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us today. So to start off, 851 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 1: could you talk a bit about your background and how 852 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: you got into studying microbial ecology. Sure. Yeah, So I 853 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,880 Speaker 1: did a sort of wandering path to get into a PhD. 854 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: So I started doing research at Oxford University on inside 855 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,240 Speaker 1: and locust warming, and I moved to Sydney and looked 856 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 1: at locust in Australia. And then I became a high 857 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,000 Speaker 1: school teacher but miss science, and then did walk in 858 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,120 Speaker 1: a biotech company that also looked at the insects. So 859 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,880 Speaker 1: I did a sort of diverse range of things before 860 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 1: um coming to a PhD at Task University, and it tough. 861 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,480 Speaker 1: You do rotations, and I did a bit of a 862 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: project in the Wolf lab and I loved it. And 863 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:20,240 Speaker 1: I love that it's uh ecology and so you're looking 864 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: at how communities interact and how different populations interact is 865 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,839 Speaker 1: but it's very small. I can do it in the lab. 866 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,239 Speaker 1: I don't have to go across Australia gathering locust or 867 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 1: anything like that. It's just on a blade in the lab. 868 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,400 Speaker 1: It's very simple. But it's also in food, and I 869 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: really love food, and it was in cheese um and 870 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,759 Speaker 1: I love cheese, and you know, I moved to America 871 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: from the UK and I didn't have access to good cheese. 872 00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,160 Speaker 1: So the lab was a great place for getting cheese. 873 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,680 Speaker 1: But I wanted to keep on with the plant research 874 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 1: and that sort of background, so I asked Professor Wolf. 875 00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: So I'm in the Wolf Club. I asked Professor Wolf 876 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: if I could start looking at microbial ecology. So the 877 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,080 Speaker 1: same things in the same questions that he was asking, 878 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,759 Speaker 1: but in u sauer kraut and fermented vegetable products and 879 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 1: he'll at me and it's um. It was great. So 880 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,880 Speaker 1: from there I started developing ecological questions in this fermented 881 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,640 Speaker 1: vegetable wild So one thing I can't leave off. You 882 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,040 Speaker 1: mentioned that you had done research with locusts. I was 883 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 1: reading in another interview with you that I think was 884 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,480 Speaker 1: in Cook's Illustrated a few years ago, that you said 885 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,000 Speaker 1: that part of that research involved tickling the legs of locusts. 886 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 1: But I was curious what what that was in service 887 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:37,719 Speaker 1: of studying What were you trying to find out by 888 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:43,480 Speaker 1: tickling locust legs? Yeah? So, um, the desert locus, the 889 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 1: scog area, which all of your listeners will know if 890 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,200 Speaker 1: they've ever been to a pat shop and looked at 891 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,799 Speaker 1: the lizard food. So the yellow and black locusts that 892 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: hop around and you feed them to your lizards, that's 893 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:59,120 Speaker 1: the desert locusts. And they come in that dusky like 894 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: they're sort of dar when they're adults, but they also 895 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 1: come in bright green and it's the exact same species. 896 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,960 Speaker 1: It's the same thing. It just has a phase change 897 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,440 Speaker 1: where it goes from a solitary, beautiful grasshopper that's all 898 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,920 Speaker 1: alone eating, not hiding anybody, and then there can be 899 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,920 Speaker 1: a shift um and it's a serotonin spite that shifts 900 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: until it becomes gregarious and they start swarming. So the 901 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,319 Speaker 1: research there it was Professor Steve Simpson was looking at 902 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: how what is that shift, what is triggering that serotonin spike, 903 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 1: and he found if you like agitate them, if they're jostling, 904 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: if you sort of have them in a crowd and 905 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: they start knocking against each other, that's when that chemical 906 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 1: shift happens. So it was simulating locust knocking against one another. 907 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 1: So tickling them, yeah, yeah, you said, you use the 908 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,880 Speaker 1: paint brush to tickle their So you tickle a locust 909 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,359 Speaker 1: lag for five seconds every minute for eight hours, and 910 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 1: then it will have a completely different behavior. So the 911 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,160 Speaker 1: the the parents takes a generation to come through and 912 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: it will be brown and yellow later on. But the 913 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,759 Speaker 1: behaviors it goes from being uh, scared of locus and 914 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:18,480 Speaker 1: running away to wanting to aggregate, like moving together. Did 915 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,200 Speaker 1: you have any interest in fermentation as food before you 916 00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,640 Speaker 1: got into the science of it particularly I like, I 917 00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:27,640 Speaker 1: like food, and so I think that's what drew me 918 00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: to the lab, as well as the strong emphasis on outreach. 919 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,319 Speaker 1: So it's very hard to get people excited about bacteria 920 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 1: and people are just like, oh, it's a disease, or 921 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,000 Speaker 1: what your hands, or of the use of antibiotics. But 922 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 1: this is something that I can take a cheese or 923 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 1: a jar of kimchi and talk to somebody about it, 924 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,279 Speaker 1: and I think, um, it became important to me to 925 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,040 Speaker 1: be able to talk to the general public about research. 926 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,200 Speaker 1: I think from a teaching background, finding a way that 927 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: you can easily explain complex scientific ideas by being like, hey, 928 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,960 Speaker 1: this cheese is like this, and why is it like that? 929 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 1: And what is going on with this microbe and that microbe? 930 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 1: Oh that's great, Yeah, that's like the Sauer Kraut can 931 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: be a foot in the door to a to a 932 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,840 Speaker 1: broader view of the microbiological world. Yeah, and the cheese 933 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,480 Speaker 1: as well, Like you can you can take cheese anywhere 934 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,279 Speaker 1: and people will be excited because it stinks like it 935 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,440 Speaker 1: immediately draws people in because you're like, hey, smell this, 936 00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,960 Speaker 1: and then they're like, okay, that's really cool. Um boy, 937 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,040 Speaker 1: I suppose you can do that with kimchi as well. 938 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,200 Speaker 1: UM and sauer kraut. They have like smells and textures 939 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,560 Speaker 1: that are exciting, you know, totally. Um, So maybe you 940 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,400 Speaker 1: can start off by giving me sort of a character 941 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:50,000 Speaker 1: sketch of lactic acid bacteria as a group. What are 942 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 1: these organisms like, what do we know about them? And 943 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: how do you think about them? So lat gas of 944 00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,080 Speaker 1: bacteria are a whole group, and there's many different you 945 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,120 Speaker 1: sees in this group. And then for the most part 946 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: they are called grass generally regarded as safe. So the 947 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,520 Speaker 1: FDA doesn't really care about them. Um, there are in 948 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,520 Speaker 1: so many food products. The more you study, the more 949 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,520 Speaker 1: you find, so there's hundreds and you know, so they're 950 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,560 Speaker 1: not gonna go around saying this one is safe and 951 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,800 Speaker 1: this one and this one. They're just as a blanket, 952 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:24,280 Speaker 1: they're safe. Um, there are in so many foods. Um. 953 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: And as a rule, they take sugars and they ferment 954 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,799 Speaker 1: them into electic acid. That's pretty much the basics. Some 955 00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: of them are a little more complex and they'll turn 956 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:39,280 Speaker 1: things into lactic acid and um acetic acid and CEO 957 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,239 Speaker 1: two and so those are the hetero fomentors. They do 958 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,919 Speaker 1: more than one thing, so they sort of think they're 959 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:49,080 Speaker 1: making two different assets, whereas the home of fomentors there 960 00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,480 Speaker 1: is doing one thing. They're just making lactic acid. And 961 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,840 Speaker 1: that's the two big groups when you're thinking about lacto acid, 962 00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,000 Speaker 1: and if I ever call them LBS, it's lactic acid veteria. 963 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,319 Speaker 1: So we know lactic acid bacteria are one of the 964 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,160 Speaker 1: major players in UH in vegetable fermentations like kim chi 965 00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,320 Speaker 1: or sauer kraut. But could you give us a broader 966 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,880 Speaker 1: picture about what's going on in the whole life cycle 967 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: of a of a microbial ecosystem inside a vegetable fermentation. 968 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,160 Speaker 1: So if you take like a jar of freshly made 969 00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:22,000 Speaker 1: kim chi and it starts to ferment, who else is 970 00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,319 Speaker 1: in this microbial cast of characters and what do the 971 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: struggles for dominance look like inside that jar? So I'm 972 00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:34,040 Speaker 1: sure you and your lessons have maybe started experimenting during 973 00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:37,680 Speaker 1: COVID with fermentation, so you know that um if anyone 974 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 1: started on sauerkraut, I think sauerkraut is under utilize compared 975 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,080 Speaker 1: to sour dough. But if you've done any fermenting of 976 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,239 Speaker 1: souer crout, which I think you shared um do you 977 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,799 Speaker 1: know that you don't add a starter so that's sour dough. 978 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,160 Speaker 1: When you first do the starter culture, you're just relying 979 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,800 Speaker 1: on the natural who is there to inoculate the ingredients. 980 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,520 Speaker 1: So you take cabbage or if you're making kimchi, other ingredients, 981 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,520 Speaker 1: or you can make other ferments like adding in carrots 982 00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,840 Speaker 1: or whatever, and the bacteria, these light casa bacteria just 983 00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:12,160 Speaker 1: present on the surface. But the one the first thing 984 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 1: that I did in my project was paid out the cabbages, 985 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,759 Speaker 1: and I found that light casa bacteria really low. If 986 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,880 Speaker 1: you're looking at the bacteria present on a vegetable, there 987 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:27,560 Speaker 1: are lots and lots of proteo bacteria, many many things 988 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:33,160 Speaker 1: like pseudomonas um, spingle mona. So these are bacteria that 989 00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,680 Speaker 1: like living on plant leaves, and for the most part, 990 00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:41,359 Speaker 1: they're really beautiful and colorful because they contain pigments that 991 00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,319 Speaker 1: protect the bacteria from UV light. So if you think 992 00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:47,840 Speaker 1: of a cabbage out in a field, it's actually exploited. 993 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,799 Speaker 1: It really really high levels of UV light and it 994 00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,680 Speaker 1: doesn't have a lot of water accessible on the leaf surface. 995 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,239 Speaker 1: So leaves are normally covered in a waxy film and 996 00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,200 Speaker 1: so there's not a lot of nutrients, there's had a 997 00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,040 Speaker 1: lot of water. It's really hard to survive. And the 998 00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 1: bacteria that are there have a lot of pigments and 999 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,080 Speaker 1: ways that they can adhere to the surface of the 1000 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,960 Speaker 1: plant and help them survive. And it's not really the 1001 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:16,040 Speaker 1: lactic astive bacteria's way of living, so not really high 1002 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,399 Speaker 1: like very abundant on the leaf. But when you chop 1003 00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,120 Speaker 1: that leaf up to make your SA crowd, you're releasing 1004 00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,839 Speaker 1: those punch sugars. You're making them like very readily available. 1005 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,040 Speaker 1: And then when you add the salt, you further draw 1006 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,560 Speaker 1: out those sugars and you completely change the playing field. 1007 00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:39,640 Speaker 1: So you've gone from a high oxygen, highlight, low nutrient 1008 00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,359 Speaker 1: condition to all the nutrients in the leaves are out 1009 00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:46,200 Speaker 1: and slashing about. You take away the oxygen when you 1010 00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:48,880 Speaker 1: push it down into a messenger, and you add salt, 1011 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:54,000 Speaker 1: and this is really really strong abiotics selective pressure that 1012 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,840 Speaker 1: will change who can live. And that's when the lactics 1013 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,359 Speaker 1: of bacteria really come into their own and they can 1014 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:05,799 Speaker 1: start increasing in abundance. Now I mentioned earlier the two 1015 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:10,640 Speaker 1: big groups of lactic aso bacteria, the petro fermentors and 1016 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,880 Speaker 1: the homo fermentors. So at the very start of fermentation, 1017 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:18,680 Speaker 1: we get a massive increase in the hetero fermentors, so 1018 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:23,200 Speaker 1: as things like luconna stocks and versalia um and they 1019 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,840 Speaker 1: really take off and they're super abundant, and they're making 1020 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,280 Speaker 1: lactic acid and acetic acid. Now these two acids start 1021 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:35,280 Speaker 1: lowering the pH and that makes it easier for the 1022 00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,280 Speaker 1: homo fomentous to start growing. So you sort of see 1023 00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,280 Speaker 1: a two phase I wish I had a white water 1024 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,440 Speaker 1: you could draw it out where you have one population 1025 00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,240 Speaker 1: that increases and then a second population, so a second 1026 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,160 Speaker 1: wave UM, and that lowers the pH even more. And 1027 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:55,160 Speaker 1: as the pH falls um there was proteo bacteria that 1028 00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about. They can't survive and they won't they 1029 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,720 Speaker 1: won't be present at the end of amentation. So if 1030 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm corrected, this first group the hetero from enters that 1031 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:09,240 Speaker 1: produced the multiple byproducts you said lactic acid and acetic acid. 1032 00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:12,760 Speaker 1: So acetic acid would be basically the the acid and vinegar, right, 1033 00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,080 Speaker 1: and lactic acid is also what's coming out of the 1034 00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,800 Speaker 1: homo from enters, the lactic acid bacteria that come in 1035 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,960 Speaker 1: the second wave UM, and is that am I correct 1036 00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,720 Speaker 1: in thinking that's also the same thing that builds up 1037 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,560 Speaker 1: in our muscles when we exercise and start to feel 1038 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:30,960 Speaker 1: the aching and and all that sort of the presence 1039 00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,520 Speaker 1: of the lactic acid bacteria causes the pain of exercise. Well, 1040 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:40,040 Speaker 1: it's the same lactic acid. I'm sorry, did I say bacteria. Sorry, 1041 00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:45,840 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to say that the lactic acid. Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly, yes. 1042 00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:51,600 Speaker 1: And actually lactic acid is a less harsh acid. So 1043 00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:55,440 Speaker 1: if it was just fomented by hetero fomentos and it 1044 00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,240 Speaker 1: just we ate a sour crout that was just made 1045 00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:00,440 Speaker 1: with a stic acid, it wouldn't be that nice. It 1046 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,560 Speaker 1: would be very very would be like a very harsh 1047 00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,320 Speaker 1: like a pickle. Like you wouldn't eat all of the 1048 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:10,440 Speaker 1: pickle juice because it's very vinegary um. But when you 1049 00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,240 Speaker 1: have sour krout, it should have a softer, buttery flavor. 1050 00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 1: So you have to sort of trust me on this 1051 00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,240 Speaker 1: one and go home and eat some and compare it 1052 00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,400 Speaker 1: to you just straight pickles, which are quite acidic, Because 1053 00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:25,840 Speaker 1: that lactic acid has a softer um like, it's not 1054 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,200 Speaker 1: as sharp. Yeah, that's definitely something you notice, is a 1055 00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,720 Speaker 1: difference between quick pickled foods that you use vinegar to pickle, 1056 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:35,560 Speaker 1: versus fermented foods where it comes from the bacteria. It's 1057 00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:40,600 Speaker 1: a much more soft, round, complex kind of flavor. So 1058 00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,120 Speaker 1: so normally when you ferment vegetables and UH and you're 1059 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,640 Speaker 1: trying to you know, you salt them, you make a brine, 1060 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,080 Speaker 1: and you encourage the lactic acid bacteria. You said, you 1061 00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,240 Speaker 1: see these two broad spikes with the hetero fomenters and 1062 00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,480 Speaker 1: then the homo fomenters UM. But even within that, you're 1063 00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,000 Speaker 1: still going to see a lot of different species involved, 1064 00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:02,800 Speaker 1: right that there can be widely different profiles of what 1065 01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:06,880 Speaker 1: exact lactic acid bacteria are taking over. Is that correct? Yes, 1066 01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,680 Speaker 1: there's a lot so UM looking at who's there, there's 1067 01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:12,920 Speaker 1: just some big players, so they'll be like lact to 1068 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:17,240 Speaker 1: basilist broad vis in basically everything at a really high percentage, 1069 01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:21,120 Speaker 1: and then there'll be a lot of UM low numbers 1070 01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,960 Speaker 1: of many other ones. So we've just recently done a 1071 01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:29,040 Speaker 1: survey of North American fermented vegetable products UM, which I 1072 01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:31,640 Speaker 1: was really excited about because there's a lot of research 1073 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:36,920 Speaker 1: on UM Asian products. So there's a whole research institute 1074 01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,840 Speaker 1: of kimchi in Korea, and there's um a lot of 1075 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:45,200 Speaker 1: research in Europe, but this is the first United States 1076 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,880 Speaker 1: sauner Craft survey and we found on average teen point 1077 01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,720 Speaker 1: eight species of lactic gas of bacteria her jar, but 1078 01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:56,120 Speaker 1: most of them are as some of the really common 1079 01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,840 Speaker 1: lactic gas of bacteria. They take, They take up the bulk. 1080 01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:05,040 Speaker 1: So would you find any noticeable differences in in like 1081 01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:10,360 Speaker 1: aromas or flavors produced depending on what the microbial ecosystem 1082 01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,960 Speaker 1: in the fermented jar vegetables looks like. I haven't. I 1083 01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,600 Speaker 1: haven't done any specific research on that, but I haven't 1084 01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,720 Speaker 1: myself noticed anything. I think there can be a big 1085 01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:25,000 Speaker 1: difference between kimchi and sauerkraw, which is hard to measure 1086 01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:29,400 Speaker 1: in terms of the bacteria that are present because there's 1087 01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:32,560 Speaker 1: so many other flavors going on. So some kim cheese 1088 01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,920 Speaker 1: are fermented at a lower temperature, and when you're fermenting 1089 01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:39,200 Speaker 1: in a really cool temperature, like between ten to fourteen 1090 01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:45,120 Speaker 1: degrees celsius, you're promoting those hetero fermentors, so you get 1091 01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,000 Speaker 1: a different flavor. So there can be a lot of 1092 01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:51,600 Speaker 1: asalia in kimchi, which is less prevalent in souer crawl 1093 01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:54,720 Speaker 1: like they'll still be there but in lower numbers. But 1094 01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:58,400 Speaker 1: it's very hard to compare the flavors and attribute that 1095 01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,880 Speaker 1: to the bacteria when you've also garlic, ginger, red paper, 1096 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,280 Speaker 1: and everything else. That's one thing I found hard in 1097 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:10,800 Speaker 1: doing this survey is that every producer might have different vector, 1098 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,000 Speaker 1: but they all have like the slight tweaking of recipes. 1099 01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:19,160 Speaker 1: So some had like caraway seeds or they threw in 1100 01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:24,440 Speaker 1: an apple just like So you mentioned that that the 1101 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,880 Speaker 1: lactic acid bacteria tend to be found in very low 1102 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,480 Speaker 1: numbers if you just takes a raw leaf of cabbage 1103 01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:36,120 Speaker 1: from the farm before fermentation. So where do we have 1104 01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:40,200 Speaker 1: any idea about where these microbes generally come from. Is 1105 01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,760 Speaker 1: it just something that's probably there on a leaf of cabbage, 1106 01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,200 Speaker 1: even though it's in very small numbers, and then the 1107 01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:50,280 Speaker 1: fermentation environment helps those numbers bulk up over time or 1108 01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:54,000 Speaker 1: there are other possible vectors. Yeah, So I went out 1109 01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:59,440 Speaker 1: to farms or common gardens um in the summer of 1110 01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:03,640 Speaker 1: twenty seven and team and tried to find environmental sources 1111 01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,240 Speaker 1: of lactics of bacteria. So I took soil and leave 1112 01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:09,760 Speaker 1: samples and not cabbage leaf um. We'd leaves are things 1113 01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:13,120 Speaker 1: that were just growing next to crop plants um, and 1114 01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,360 Speaker 1: I found that they had pretty low levels of lacticas bacteria. 1115 01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:20,840 Speaker 1: So I didn't find like a big environmental reservoir of 1116 01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,400 Speaker 1: these bacteria, which I think it's pretty incredible that we 1117 01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:28,520 Speaker 1: know so much about them in the human micro like 1118 01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:33,040 Speaker 1: the human got microbiome and probiotics and probiotics and fermented foods, 1119 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 1: but very little is known about the ecology, and I 1120 01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:41,040 Speaker 1: couldn't find too much. I think I definitely talked about 1121 01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,919 Speaker 1: it in the in a previous podcast about maybe they're 1122 01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:48,480 Speaker 1: being affected in by insects if you are US papers 1123 01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,960 Speaker 1: where honey bees have lacticas bacteria and that gut um, 1124 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,120 Speaker 1: and they're very specific two bees. Though, I think because 1125 01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,439 Speaker 1: bees taken nectar and then the sugars in the nect 1126 01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:01,080 Speaker 1: you can get broken down by l to gas a bacteria. 1127 01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:05,040 Speaker 1: But I haven't yet found any evidence that the insects 1128 01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,080 Speaker 1: and the insect droppings go on to be the source 1129 01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:11,520 Speaker 1: of black to Gasa bacteria and fermented vegetables. So perhaps 1130 01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,400 Speaker 1: a very small amount of black to Gasa bacteria in 1131 01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:19,600 Speaker 1: soil can then try and like dispussed onto cabbages repeatedly 1132 01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:24,439 Speaker 1: and then maybe it's just low levels everywhere it's it's 1133 01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:27,440 Speaker 1: still a puzzle. Is it possible also that some amount 1134 01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:30,600 Speaker 1: of it just comes from the kitchen environments or other 1135 01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:35,280 Speaker 1: environments where this where fermentations are prepared, that it's on jars, 1136 01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,240 Speaker 1: it's on spoons and all that kind of stuff that's 1137 01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,480 Speaker 1: been sort of talked about a lot. And I'll have 1138 01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:41,960 Speaker 1: to look up the name for you, but there was 1139 01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:46,120 Speaker 1: a recent paper where they looked at stuttle Craft facility, 1140 01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,400 Speaker 1: so they I think there was at one facility in 1141 01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,560 Speaker 1: Rhode Island. They went to this one place and they 1142 01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:55,640 Speaker 1: sampled fridges, doors, walls, everything, and they didn't find like 1143 01:04:55,840 --> 01:05:00,680 Speaker 1: Casa bacteria in the environment. They only found levels on 1144 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:04,680 Speaker 1: the cabbage. But if you're thinking about making sour crowd 1145 01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,520 Speaker 1: in a facility, you're going to have tons of cabbage. 1146 01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,680 Speaker 1: So even if you put together like ten cabbages in 1147 01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:12,920 Speaker 1: one giant fact, there's a lot of cabbage and you 1148 01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:15,960 Speaker 1: only need a tiny bit of the bacteria to make 1149 01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,600 Speaker 1: it to get it to take off. Whereas if you 1150 01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,480 Speaker 1: think if you were making it at home and use 1151 01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:24,760 Speaker 1: half a cabbage, then just by probability, by chance, you 1152 01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:28,280 Speaker 1: might make one that didn't have enough or didn't have any. 1153 01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,360 Speaker 1: But if you multiply the amount of ingredients, I think 1154 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:34,920 Speaker 1: you will always have some amount. I would like to 1155 01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:38,280 Speaker 1: guess bacteria. Now, was I reading that previously you did 1156 01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:42,160 Speaker 1: some research with trying to grow sterile cabbage in order 1157 01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,080 Speaker 1: to to inoculate it with bacteria and see how the 1158 01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:48,160 Speaker 1: bacteria did on it. Yeah, I'm very excited about it. 1159 01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,360 Speaker 1: It came out in the Journal of Visualized Experiments, and 1160 01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:54,000 Speaker 1: then I couldn't film because of COVID, but they will 1161 01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,840 Speaker 1: be coming in on Wednesday. UM. But I managed to 1162 01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:00,920 Speaker 1: grow cabbages and I can send you pictures. UM. I 1163 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:05,919 Speaker 1: managed to grow cabbages in glass tubes and they are 1164 01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:08,560 Speaker 1: sterile as far as I can tell. Like you know, 1165 01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:12,440 Speaker 1: maybe there's some media that one bacteria could grow on, 1166 01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:15,040 Speaker 1: but as far as we can tell, they're completely sterile, 1167 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:19,240 Speaker 1: and they're happy, and they're growing in calcaine clay. You 1168 01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:22,160 Speaker 1: can articulate that. So if you put in the articlave 1169 01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,440 Speaker 1: high heat, high pressure, will be sterile at some nutrient 1170 01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,440 Speaker 1: broth and they're really happy. And now did that research 1171 01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:33,000 Speaker 1: involve you trying to see what kind of environment those 1172 01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:37,400 Speaker 1: previously sterile cabbages would make for different microbes or was 1173 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:39,800 Speaker 1: that just to study the cabbage itself and how it 1174 01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:43,080 Speaker 1: could how well it did without a microbiome. No, I 1175 01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:46,680 Speaker 1: wanted to do actual competition experiments with large cast of 1176 01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:51,320 Speaker 1: bacteria and the philosphere microbiome. So the philosphere is the 1177 01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:55,040 Speaker 1: community of bacteria living on a leaf. So I wanted 1178 01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:57,600 Speaker 1: to say, well, maybe like to cast a bacteria in 1179 01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:01,560 Speaker 1: low abundance because they need eat a particular microbe to 1180 01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:04,520 Speaker 1: grow with or there's competition. So I made all of 1181 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,720 Speaker 1: this sterile cabbage. It took me years and then I 1182 01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:11,880 Speaker 1: inoculated it. We lead Casa bacteria and they don't grow. 1183 01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,280 Speaker 1: Like if you just spray a cabbage with lat to 1184 01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:19,959 Speaker 1: caste bacteria and it's happy. You don't put any other 1185 01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,640 Speaker 1: thing in there to compete with it. It won't grow 1186 01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:26,880 Speaker 1: the cabbage or the lactic acid bacteria. The cabbage is fine. 1187 01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:31,600 Speaker 1: The cabbage. I wasn't interested. I haven't done any measuring 1188 01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:35,680 Speaker 1: of cabbages or their growth. Um they do find with 1189 01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:39,800 Speaker 1: or without a microbiome. I sprayed some yeast on cabbages 1190 01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:43,440 Speaker 1: once and they didn't enjoy that. The cabbages brown and 1191 01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:47,959 Speaker 1: just with it. But bacteria fine on cabbage, they don't 1192 01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:52,960 Speaker 1: influence the cabbage. But yeah, I did twenty bacteria that 1193 01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,360 Speaker 1: you just naturally find on a cabbage, and things like 1194 01:07:55,440 --> 01:08:00,240 Speaker 1: the pseudomonist that I mentioned. So things like that break 1195 01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,000 Speaker 1: them on the cabbage and they will increase and you 1196 01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:05,800 Speaker 1: will see like they're happy growing on a cabbage. The 1197 01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:09,320 Speaker 1: lattic as a batteria tank. So it's very hard to 1198 01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:13,600 Speaker 1: do an experiment with something that won't grow. Like I 1199 01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:18,320 Speaker 1: mix it with other things, they grow bacteria gust Wow. 1200 01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:22,680 Speaker 1: So we know that obviously these lactic acid bacteria are 1201 01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:26,160 Speaker 1: the main player and vegetable fermentations, but there are fungal 1202 01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,840 Speaker 1: microbes like yeast, so we've mentioned a little bit that 1203 01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,519 Speaker 1: are major players, and other kinds of fermentation of course, 1204 01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:34,880 Speaker 1: in like bread or in wine or beer. Did you 1205 01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:38,479 Speaker 1: mention over our email that um that in looking at 1206 01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:42,640 Speaker 1: store bought preparations of kimchi, you've found yeast in some 1207 01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:46,080 Speaker 1: of them. That seems kind of surprising. Yeah, So I 1208 01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,400 Speaker 1: tried really hard to find some literature on this, and 1209 01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:51,639 Speaker 1: you only see a few papers from a long time 1210 01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:57,560 Speaker 1: ago stating at yeast um sometimes found as spoiler organisms. 1211 01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:01,840 Speaker 1: But when I did this North American sourkrout survey or 1212 01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:04,479 Speaker 1: fermented vegetable product survey, so it was sour karts and 1213 01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:08,360 Speaker 1: kin cheese. I found over half of them had yeast, 1214 01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:11,519 Speaker 1: like a lot, a lot of yeast, Like some of 1215 01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:15,200 Speaker 1: them had more counts of yeast than bacteria, which I 1216 01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:18,360 Speaker 1: was really surprised by. So the FA the use that 1217 01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:21,519 Speaker 1: I found is safe. There are things like kazakhstania, which 1218 01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:24,679 Speaker 1: you do find in sour dough, so they're not they're 1219 01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,480 Speaker 1: not toxic, but everything that you read says the undesirable 1220 01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:33,240 Speaker 1: and fermented vegetable products because they give musty, yeasty, sort 1221 01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:37,160 Speaker 1: of dankish flavors I guess, and they can form a film, 1222 01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:39,679 Speaker 1: which I think is pretty off putting if you're trying 1223 01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:41,720 Speaker 1: to create a new product and that's covered in a 1224 01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:47,400 Speaker 1: yeast film. Yeah, you want your sour smell like skunky beer. No, 1225 01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:51,880 Speaker 1: definitely not, it's already Yeah, so tough. So I when 1226 01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:55,000 Speaker 1: I had this, I had fifty one jars and I 1227 01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:57,240 Speaker 1: was delighted, and I was like, Hey, who wants some? 1228 01:09:57,479 --> 01:09:59,840 Speaker 1: And I would. I opened and sampled them all in 1229 01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:04,040 Speaker 1: the conference room, a smaller room than the toughs, and 1230 01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:07,240 Speaker 1: people were not happy. They're like, Wow, the whole room 1231 01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:09,760 Speaker 1: stank for a week. I think it's just in an 1232 01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,240 Speaker 1: enclosed space. Opening fifty jars of sauer kraut and kim 1233 01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:16,080 Speaker 1: schi was a little much, but yeah, and I tried 1234 01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:19,280 Speaker 1: to eat them all, but I I really couldn't. That's 1235 01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,799 Speaker 1: a lot. But you couldn't eat fifty jars of kimchi 1236 01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,960 Speaker 1: by yourself or sauerkraut and kimchi. No. I tried so 1237 01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,760 Speaker 1: hot and I can do it. And part that's why 1238 01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:31,559 Speaker 1: I wrote the grant, as like, now I can get 1239 01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:33,320 Speaker 1: to eat all of it. If I write a grant 1240 01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:37,320 Speaker 1: that says I need to buy them all so well, 1241 01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:41,160 Speaker 1: that makes me think you you correctly guessed that. One 1242 01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:43,840 Speaker 1: of the things that got me interested in talking about 1243 01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:46,759 Speaker 1: kimch on our podcast is that I had been trying 1244 01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:48,919 Speaker 1: to make it at home for the first time recently. 1245 01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:53,160 Speaker 1: Uh And one thing that has so I've loved kimchi 1246 01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:56,439 Speaker 1: for years, and I've always put off trying to make 1247 01:10:56,439 --> 01:11:01,120 Speaker 1: it because it seemed like a scary, daunting, potentially dangerous 1248 01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:03,559 Speaker 1: procedure if you're fermenting things and you don't know what 1249 01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:07,439 Speaker 1: you're doing. But honestly, I've I've found it easier than 1250 01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,040 Speaker 1: I expected it to be, So I guess one thing 1251 01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:12,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people are probably wondering is how safe 1252 01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:16,040 Speaker 1: is it to experiment with making sauerkraud or kimchi or 1253 01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,519 Speaker 1: some other lacto fermented vegetable. Is this something that's probably 1254 01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:21,760 Speaker 1: gonna poison you if you screw it up, or is 1255 01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:25,000 Speaker 1: it pretty forgiving. That's that's a great, great question, because 1256 01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:27,280 Speaker 1: I think people are really scared, and when people come over, 1257 01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:29,360 Speaker 1: they're like, because I have a lot of ferments on 1258 01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:34,080 Speaker 1: my friends these days, but they're actually pretty safe. Anything 1259 01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:39,880 Speaker 1: that's anaerobic, um, you're really really making it very hard 1260 01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:43,800 Speaker 1: for things like equally and mysteria to grow. So they're 1261 01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,439 Speaker 1: pretty safe if you do get the anaerobic conditions correctly. 1262 01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:50,280 Speaker 1: So sometimes if you're fermenting in a massenger and you 1263 01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:52,479 Speaker 1: have like a pocket of air on the top, you'll 1264 01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:55,080 Speaker 1: notice the very top layer of your ferment might be 1265 01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:56,880 Speaker 1: a little off, and then you can just take that 1266 01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:00,120 Speaker 1: off and then push it down so it's submerged. But 1267 01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:06,040 Speaker 1: probably not an official thing to say, so basically, as 1268 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,760 Speaker 1: long as you've got the salt there and the stuff's underwater, 1269 01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:11,960 Speaker 1: it's it's going to be safe. Yeah. I think that's 1270 01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:14,760 Speaker 1: one thing that I found remarkable with everything that I've done, 1271 01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,760 Speaker 1: with everything that I've read. I think that's why I 1272 01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:21,920 Speaker 1: just love this project so much, because it seems so haphazard, 1273 01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:25,240 Speaker 1: like you're just taking random ingredients and salt, and yet 1274 01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:29,479 Speaker 1: it works so consistently um worldwide. You know, That's what 1275 01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,640 Speaker 1: blows my mind. The things that we found in this 1276 01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:36,000 Speaker 1: North American survey are the exact same things that they 1277 01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,920 Speaker 1: find in Europe to the exact same things that they 1278 01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:43,799 Speaker 1: find in everything in Asia. So you're like, it's so robust. Broadly, 1279 01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:49,000 Speaker 1: what do you find amazing about fermentation? Well, that bacteria 1280 01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,519 Speaker 1: that we don't know how they where they live in 1281 01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:54,639 Speaker 1: the environment. We can't find them in the environment get 1282 01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:58,840 Speaker 1: into everything that we eat, and a consistent like it's 1283 01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:02,759 Speaker 1: amazing we can't try them, but all over the world 1284 01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:05,920 Speaker 1: there's it's the same species and you can't follow it 1285 01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:09,200 Speaker 1: from a field to a cabbage. You know, that's amazing. 1286 01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:13,920 Speaker 1: That is amazing. Uh, I don't know. It's one of 1287 01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:15,720 Speaker 1: the things we actually love to talk about on this 1288 01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:19,479 Speaker 1: show is kind of the hidden realities, the things that 1289 01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:21,800 Speaker 1: are so important to human culture, but that you know, 1290 01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:24,200 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be able to see them looking at I 1291 01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,120 Speaker 1: mean you, I guess you don't see any microbes with 1292 01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:29,080 Speaker 1: your eyes normally unless they're starting a really big colony. 1293 01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:31,920 Speaker 1: But but even with scientific instruments, like you don't know 1294 01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:35,919 Speaker 1: where all these microbes are coming from. Yeah, it's it's amazing. 1295 01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:39,160 Speaker 1: Like I was trying to write a review on dispersal, 1296 01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,720 Speaker 1: like how do how does a bacteria get from here 1297 01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,879 Speaker 1: to that? And you can read about the moving miles 1298 01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:48,880 Speaker 1: and thousands of miles on wind. It just gets in 1299 01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:53,439 Speaker 1: the wind and just dispersed. But you you've got no 1300 01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:57,160 Speaker 1: way of really knowing unless you sort of make genetically 1301 01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:00,080 Speaker 1: modified bacteria and release them, which I'm not going to you, 1302 01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:03,800 Speaker 1: but you know, like, how could you know if there's 1303 01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:06,840 Speaker 1: bacterias that because they're so small, you'd never tracked them. 1304 01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,400 Speaker 1: I think it's amazing. So is there anything else you've 1305 01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:12,640 Speaker 1: been working on recently that you wanted to talk about? Well, 1306 01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:14,719 Speaker 1: I I was gonna say, and I forgot to mention 1307 01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:19,759 Speaker 1: that I am doing community assembly experiment. So I've got 1308 01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:24,360 Speaker 1: three yeast and three bacteria that were isolated. Most of 1309 01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:27,280 Speaker 1: them were isolated from that Sauerkroud survey. So I took 1310 01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:30,040 Speaker 1: the bacteria that I found in that survey, and I'm 1311 01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:34,080 Speaker 1: competing the yeast and the bacteria together in little jaws 1312 01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:38,280 Speaker 1: of sterile vegetable extract too, and I put them under 1313 01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:43,519 Speaker 1: different conditions, like different temperatures, different salt concentrations, um and 1314 01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:46,720 Speaker 1: using different cabbage extracts of red cabbage, grain cabbage, and 1315 01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,439 Speaker 1: Napa cabbage to see if any of those influence the 1316 01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:53,760 Speaker 1: presence of yeast. And actually, I think it looks like 1317 01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:57,479 Speaker 1: the temperature that I fermented at could be influencing the 1318 01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:00,800 Speaker 1: abundance of yeast. So at higher temperatures, perhaps you get 1319 01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:04,000 Speaker 1: more used. So maybe the North American fermenters are using 1320 01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:08,160 Speaker 1: different conditions and that's why the ferments have more used. 1321 01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:12,040 Speaker 1: But I'm still working in it. Interesting. So, if if 1322 01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,840 Speaker 1: you're making kimchi at home or making sarokraut at home, 1323 01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:16,840 Speaker 1: and you want to keep the yeast out, a lower 1324 01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:19,920 Speaker 1: temperature fermentation might be a better way to do that. Yeah, 1325 01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:22,360 Speaker 1: So if the temperature in your room is getting sort 1326 01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:24,920 Speaker 1: of like above twenty four degrees, you might want to 1327 01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,280 Speaker 1: put it in the basement or somewhere a little cooler. 1328 01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:30,640 Speaker 1: And I did notice that if you don't put salt in, 1329 01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:34,160 Speaker 1: it can go horribly wrong. The pH just doesn't fall 1330 01:15:34,479 --> 01:15:36,920 Speaker 1: as much because I tried that, and I was even 1331 01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:40,000 Speaker 1: adding like to cast of bacteria, and the pH wasn't 1332 01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:44,920 Speaker 1: dropping as well as it should with two. But there 1333 01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:47,120 Speaker 1: wasn't a big difference between two and four. So I 1334 01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:50,240 Speaker 1: think sticking at two percent salt is good. Am I 1335 01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:54,040 Speaker 1: understanding the causality right there that the salt essentially makes 1336 01:15:54,240 --> 01:15:57,759 Speaker 1: um makes an environment that's less hospitable for other types 1337 01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:00,439 Speaker 1: of bacteria and microbes to thrive. But the to gas 1338 01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:03,840 Speaker 1: in bacteria or tolerant of salt is that it is it. 1339 01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:07,160 Speaker 1: That's what I always assumed um and think is right 1340 01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:10,679 Speaker 1: when you have just regular cabbage. But I was using 1341 01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:14,840 Speaker 1: sterile felted vegetable extractures, you know, so just completely sterile 1342 01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:17,879 Speaker 1: media and adding lac to gas of bacteria in the east, 1343 01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:20,360 Speaker 1: so they allowed to gas about. You didn't have that 1344 01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:24,479 Speaker 1: much competition, you know, they're there with the East, and 1345 01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:27,519 Speaker 1: yet they still didn't do that well when there's no salt. 1346 01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:32,360 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So maybe the salt is even helping it 1347 01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:35,000 Speaker 1: in some way. I think there's going to be something 1348 01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:37,639 Speaker 1: going on with the salt as well. M M, well 1349 01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:41,080 Speaker 1: that's very interesting. Yeah, all right, well, I think we 1350 01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:43,120 Speaker 1: have to call it there. But thank you so much 1351 01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:45,400 Speaker 1: for joining us today. This has been so great and 1352 01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:47,960 Speaker 1: we really appreciate you sharing your time and your expertise. 1353 01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:49,840 Speaker 1: It's been a lot of fun. Yeah, thank you very 1354 01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:54,160 Speaker 1: much for having me. Well, I guess that wraps up 1355 01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:57,599 Speaker 1: this episode, but once again, huge appreciation to Dr Esther 1356 01:16:57,680 --> 01:16:59,840 Speaker 1: Miller for taking the time to speak with us. And 1357 01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:03,160 Speaker 1: I will say, though this episode is over, there is 1358 01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:06,479 Speaker 1: that whole hidden world flowing into the fermentation jar, so 1359 01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:08,280 Speaker 1: it's possible that we may have to come back and 1360 01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:11,519 Speaker 1: explore other corners of that world again in the future. 1361 01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:13,559 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to listen to 1362 01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:15,720 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow your mind, you know 1363 01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:18,400 Speaker 1: where to find us. That is, wherever you happen to 1364 01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:21,559 Speaker 1: get your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. Just rate, 1365 01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,240 Speaker 1: review and subscribe. Those are just simple things you can 1366 01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:26,599 Speaker 1: do to help out the show. Huge thanks as always 1367 01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,720 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 1368 01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:31,639 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 1369 01:17:31,640 --> 01:17:33,800 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other to suggest a topic 1370 01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:35,840 Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hi. You can 1371 01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:38,599 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 1372 01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:48,559 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of 1373 01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:51,200 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 1374 01:17:51,400 --> 01:17:53,760 Speaker 1: this is the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 1375 01:17:53,760 --> 01:18:07,200 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows like Jointed four 1376 01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:11,240 Speaker 1: Foot par Fo