WEBVTT - 37: Why We Are Increasingly Divided Into Ideological Bubbles 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.160 Welcome to Odd Lots. I'm Tracy Alloway, Executive editor at 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.800 Bloomberg Markets, and I'm Joe wasn't all Managing editor at 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.040 Bloomberg Markets. All right, so Joe, this week we have 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:22.120 something a little bit different for our listeners. It's not 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.040 entirely markets related, but I think it has a lot 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.240 to do with what is going on in markets right now, 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.199 if that makes any sense, Keep going, okay, alright, So 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.239 this week's episode is actually inspired by a conversation I 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.159 had when I was in London earlier this month. It 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:43.360 was shortly after the Brexit referendum, which shocked a lot 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.920 of people. The decision by the UK populace to leave 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:49.640 the EU came as a shock to a lot of people, 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.800 including myself, if I'm a honest. So what happened is 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.280 I was in London. I was talking to someone that 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:59.400 you actually know, but who shall remain unnamed, someone I 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:04.120 respect a lot. And this person said they had actually 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.199 voted to leave the EU and it was the last 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.679 person I ever would have thought would vote to leave. 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:15.840 But then as we started talking, h this person listed 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.160 all the reasons they thought leaving was a good decision, 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:23.680 including a long drawn out argument about the death of neoliberalism, UM, 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.440 and I realized, you know, my instinctive reaction to hearing 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.880 someone saying that they want to vote to leave is uh, 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.080 you know, incredulity, I guess, And maybe maybe it shouldn't be. 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:38.760 Everyone has valid reasons, right absolutely, And before we go 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:40.960 on you further, I'm just hoping that as soon as 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:45.600 the recording stops on this podcast, you tell me who 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.720 this person is. But I think this is an incredibly 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.560 important topic because I think that when it comes to 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:56.320 the briggs At referendum, when it comes to politics in 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:00.440 the US, it's pretty clear that um and elsewhere the world, 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:07.080 it's pretty clear that people separate themselves into these ideological bubbles. 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.079 And not only do they not know or can imagine 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:16.919 how someone sees something opposite, they don't even experience the 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.520 They seem to make almost no attempt to understand the 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:22.880 other side's point of view. And I think this is 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.680 pretty long term ramifications for the media, for democracy, for 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.720 the economy, and probably also for markets. Given how many 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.520 people in the Briggsit referendum, we're completely stunned by the 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:38.040 results exactly. That's the perfect segue alright, So here with 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.600 us today to talk about why the other side of 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:46.359 the argument is not necessarily dumb. Is Sean Blanda. He 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.520 is editor in chief of You, which is a publication 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:55.000 that's dedicated to providing the missing curriculum for creative careers. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.960 But he is also the author of a really good 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.520 Medium post on this topic that kind of enunciates a 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:15.880 lot of the ideas that we are discussing right now. Sean, 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.880 Welcome to the program. Very slight to be here. Thank 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.640 you for having me. Well. Sean, you wrote a a 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.040 post on medium about the other side not always being wrong, 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.880 and of course that other side can mean a lot 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.040 of different things. But for many people working in finance 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.840 and the major cities or technology, the other side either 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.560 means the Brexit referendum, or it means voting for Trump 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.080 or something else. So what did you mean in this 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:44.160 post and why did you write it. I'm a very 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.880 active Twitter user, and a news event would happen, I 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.120 would see coalescing of viewpoints, and then you know, the 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.240 opposition viewpoints starts to filter into that bubble, and then 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.360 I would see it immediately mocked like it was an antibody, 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:04.200 and I thought things cannot be this simple, and this 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.920 is right. This is right before Brexit, where when this happened, 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:11.520 and the notion that the other side had something to 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:13.920 say was not even crossing people's mind. So one thing 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:15.720 I did is I followed people that I disagreed with 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:19.800 on Twitter, and I found that things would come up 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.479 and it would change my mind. As an example, the 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.240 recent debate around gun control. Um, you know, as has 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.640 been well documented, there were four gun control bills put 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.480 on the floor of the House. People were arguing about it, 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:36.839 and initially I was on one side of that, which is, yes, 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.840 let's let's heavily regulate guns through this no fly list. 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.280 And then someone posited, how's that no fly list mandated? Who? 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.640 What judicial oversight? And I was like, oh, I would 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:48.880 not have thought of that if I was not following 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.919 together side. I this this thing is more complex than 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.159 I thought. The other side is not just a bunch 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.239 of buffoons that don't agree with me. They have nuanced 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.160 political views as well, and I've seen that born out 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.360 again and again, and Exit is the latest example of that. 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.160 So when we talk about opinions sort of coalescing on 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:07.680 either side, why do you think that happens? Is it 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.400 just human nature, like it's in our nature to cluster 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:14.440 around people who are similar to us and you know, 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:19.080 maybe socioeconomic status and also their opinions. Yes, and I 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:20.920 think in the past it was harder to do that 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.240 because we didn't pick and choose are the media we 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.920 consumed and less of the people we hung out with. 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:31.359 I mean, especially for kind of the young media savvy 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.480 person who's very transient. You can pick your friends and 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:38.960 pick the news you you view, and you can summarily 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.880 reject whole outlets and just kind of stick to things 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.680 that appeal to you. And at first that doesn't have 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.479 such a bad impact, but as years and years go on, 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.560 you are totally divorced from some people's realities. And you 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.320 saw this in Brexit, where people felt, you know, left 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.120 behind by some of the economic prosperity that some other 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.960 people have enjoyed. And if you were amongst and surrounded 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:02.680 by only people who have enjoyed that, you could not 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.560 even fathom why someone would want to change the situation 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.520 as it is, Um, what do you think this? So 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.960 I've certainly noticed the same phenomenon. I mean, you know, 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.640 I'm on Facebook like everyone else, and I watched the 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.080 instant reactions to things. And I watched the sort of 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.440 widespread dismay among my social circles that the idea that 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:27.039 um the UK would vote to leave the EU. What 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:31.560 is it? Worries me because I think like long term 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.679 about democracy and I for what it's worth. I don't 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:36.640 think it's just, you know, I don't think it's just 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.160 the elites are the sort of sort of like Chelismpaul 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.640 and elites, because you witness like the same sort of 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:47.600 like um uh, sort of snyde caricatures of the other 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.440 side by the other side. The fact that we use 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.240 the word elites and right can laugh it off is 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.640 one example of that exactly. But what do you think this? Ultimately? 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:00.719 I worry about, like what does it do for democracy 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.360 if people can wall themselves into these worlds in which 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:08.719 no competing ideas can enter the debate. I think you lose, 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.880 You lose empathy for the people around you in a 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:17.280 way that you can't even fathom. And I think the 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:21.360 way there's I think we all have issues that are 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.920 controversial in which when you see it affect you or 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.040 someone around you, it can change your mind. And that 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.720 can be something like your dad doesn't have healthcare, and 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:34.080 what does that mean? What does the struggle you go through. 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.920 Or one of your friends is unfairly arrested and jailed, 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.280 what does that mean to and you explore the judicial 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.080 process for the first time and you go, oh my god, 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.160 this group of people had a point or I see 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.400 it through their lens now, and now I think the 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.160 only way that happens to us is when it directly 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.680 happens to us, and we're stopping to take people's word 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:58.280 for for it sometimes and assuming that their intention is 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:03.920 malice or at worst stupidity. That that then you only 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:08.160 enforce policy positions, follow news that reinforces your worldview because 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.080 you just can't even imagine what it's like not to 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.480 have your worldview. And what's worse is you don't even 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.720 know there is another worldview. You feel like you're in 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.760 the supermajority and there's these fringe nut wackos that are 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.920 in the minority, and who are they? They're ridiculous. I'm 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.480 the smart one. So we've sort of touched on this, 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.880 but how much does social media actually play into this dynamic? 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.160 Because you know, we all use Twitter, we all use Facebook, 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:38.120 we all have our sort of personally curated selection of 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:40.240 news nowadays, and a lot of it comes to us 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.439 through our friends and our contacts. Does that end up 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:49.920 hardening the lines between different opinions different groups? I would say, 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.360 if you let it. Because one thing is, you know, 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:56.679 we live in New York City. I don't know anyone 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.760 who I'm not related to that lives in a rural area. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.040 So social media is great because I can seek out 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.200 people who live in areas not like New York City 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:05.960 and see the things that they care about, the things 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.280 they're struggling with. So it's good. But I can very 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.600 easily say this person is a nut job. I'm going 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.040 to block them, like we literally have the word block 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.480 and mute. I think one thing, you know, it's worth 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:21.199 pointing out that I think these this phenomenon is not 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.960 as simple as there's the cosmopolitan elites and everyone who else. 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:29.120 I I used to live in Vermont and so almost 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.520 all of my high school friends are lots of them 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.840 were huge Bernie Sanders supporters. And what I noticed during 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:39.559 the campaign. I mean, obviously they were vociferously pro Sanders 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.360 and many of them very anti Hillary. But what I noticed, 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:47.119 not just dad, was they had like basically convinced themselves 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.760 that he was winning for much of the race. There's 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:51.719 a lot of Bernie math skets and things like that, 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.640 Bernie math and so it wasn't just that they only 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.840 they saw, you know, they the ideological arguments, but that 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.040 actual reality of what was happening with votes that were 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.680 counted were numbers. They had a completely different perspective on 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.240 than what was getting through the mainstream media. And I 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.600 think a lot of reporters cover politics, We'll say they like, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.920 you know, got a lot of anger from the Berneu 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.760 Sanders supporters because they thought they were just lying or 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.520 making it up the various numbers. Yeah right, you you 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.520 build your own reality. And then this is a this 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.800 is a side effect of the skepticism where you're you 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.520 think the media is against people like me. Everyone's against 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.000 people like me, because everyone I know like me feels 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.800 this way, So there must be something here. You saw 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.600 something similar in their run up to the twelve election, 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:41.640 where there was a lot of people that were convinced 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:43.600 m Ronnie is gonna win in a landslide becauseveryone they 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:46.840 knew was yeah, yeah, right, And and they pick and 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.960 choose the news they had and that's obviously not what happened, 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.880 So I agree. I I think I used the the 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:57.000 Cosmopolitan not Cosmopolitan, because I'm simply acknowledging how I came 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.319 to it, which is through my filter bubble. I lived 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.479 in New York before years. Previously, I lived in Philadelphia 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.760 for seven years, so for my entire adult life, I've 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:05.600 been part of a large city. But I agree with 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.760 you entirely well. We saw an example of this alternate 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:13.840 reality dynamic earlier this month when Andrea led some of 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:19.240 the former Conservative Party leader candidate basically said that Sterling 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.319 had performed absolutely fine in the aftermath of Brexit, and 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.800 anyone um with access to a Bloomberg terminal or basic 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:30.800 finance data could see that that really wasn't true. Do people, 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.120 I mean, what what do we actually do when this happens? 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.920 Is there any way to fact check these things? Do 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:41.439 people care about fact checking anymore? I mean, I think 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:43.559 the answers no. But I think that was the most 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:46.080 common response to the piece was what happens when they're 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.080 actually wrong? Like what happens when I'm trying to give 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.360 into a draining outside and it's really not I can 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.679 I can empirically say that, and to that, I would say, 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.520 you know, I think it's helpful to figure out why 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.080 a person is motivated to get to that conclusion and 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:05.280 then attack that motivation rather than the misfect. Why does 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:09.000 that particular person what what what reason do they have? What? 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.240 What reason do Bernie Sanders fans have to believe that 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.439 he's winning? I mean, the obviously the answer is pretty obvious, 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.720 but I think it has a sound gripe in how 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.600 he might be treated by the main the larger media 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.000 outlets at large, right, And that's just the manifestation of that, 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.840 And I think too often we attack the manifestation without 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:29.600 looking at the core reason. You Know, something I've wondered 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.960 about is is this just going to get worse and 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:36.439 worse because it doesn't seem like there's an obvious mechanism 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.160 out there to solve it. And you think about the 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:44.000 speed at which technology is advancing, like virtual reality, it 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:49.240 seems like or um or payment systems or communication systems 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.600 that can connect the ideologically like minded across the world 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.640 even faster. It seems like there's just more and more 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:01.480 opportunities proliferating for people to create their own worlds and 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:06.400 inhabit spaces, whether physical or technological, in which you can 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:10.680 more more finely tune uh what gets in and the 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.000 other people in them. I think I think we're going 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.720 to develop This is me being extremely optimistic, and people 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.040 listening to this might roll their eyes, but I think 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.200 we're going to develop the muscles as a media consuming 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.960 public to start to recognize that this is happening and 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:28.240 when this is happening, And I think I think something 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.280 like Brexit is a good wake up call to that 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.720 where I know I had no my media consumption that 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.840 I like, I thought it was a guarantee that the 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.520 answer was remained right. I thought it was guaranteed. So 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.080 when that happens, I'm like, oh, what what am I 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.200 consuming about this? And what media am I consuming and 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.839 actively searching out other Now I know that's kind of 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.240 altruistic and that puts a lot of responsibility on the individual, 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:52.280 a busy individual that may have other things going on. 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:57.320 But I I think we're going to develop a muscle 0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.520 the similar way we do with I don't know, bad 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.920 content on television, Like we know that if our kids 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.480 are up at ten pm, they might see bad content 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.679 and we should we should police that change the channel. 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:10.600 I think we're going to find that that that process 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.680 as a society, I hope. So is this the awkward 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.880 teenage phase in our new media consumption? We just have 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.240 to sort of grow into it. Yeah, I mean, and 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.360 you can see it in things we thought were established. 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.400 I mean I just walked here and I saw, you know, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.280 twenty people walk around with their Pokemon go on their phone, right, 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.680 And and your inclination is to be like, that's ridiculous, 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:35.320 that's crazy, that's a fat But that kind of shows 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.600 like how nascent the medium is of cameras on phones, right, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.080 Like we just we just figured out this super great 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.240 game that allows people to talk to each other. You know, 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.880 you mentioned walking outside and seeing that, And I've had 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.840 this thought before. You know, if you're like, if you're 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:54.520 on the if you're online all day, you see people 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:59.680 are just like raging at each other and fighting the characture. Yeah, 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:01.320 and then like you sort of step outside and you 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.240 see people going about their business, You're like, oh, maybe 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:09.240 this is not really Everybody is like yeah, people are polite, 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.600 And I often feel like there's this dichotomy, like people 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.200 get upset at things online that I've never once seen 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.640 someone get upset for in real life and people are 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.680 offline and I see, like people like a level of 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:26.360 civility and empathy offline and just when I'm going out 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:28.520 my day to day business and I'm like, actually, maybe 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:30.960 people aren't that bad, and I'd like, I'd like, God, 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:32.800 I'd like to think that online we're just going to 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:37.240 start to realize, you know. I think I think there's 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:39.080 a group of people that whenever you see something that 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:41.040 disagrees with you online, you have to be like, I 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:42.880 have to answer that, I have to set them right. 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:44.680 And maybe the mechanism if someone was going down the 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:46.880 street young something you didn't agree with you, like, they're 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:48.840 probably having a rough day, Like I just gotta let 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.760 that go, Like I'll talk to them when cooler heads prevail. 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:54.440 I think they're the manners and social graces will are 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.160 are only now starting to come together. And I think 0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:00.000 it does occasionally take an event to make an individual 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.040 old person realize where their blind spots are. But the 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:06.480 downside while we figure this out is that we do 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:13.040 have um potentially dangerous populism sort of bubbling to the surface, 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.560 and it seems like people are getting more and more 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.880 angry with each other. And that's actually you know, it's 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.560 happening online, but it's translating into real life and our 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:27.520 actual political situation. So there's some urgency here. And I 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.040 think I think the I mean the events of the 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.520 past week, you've seen unity on a on a larger scale, 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.520 you know, calls for togetherness. Now, how that togetherness happens 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.160 obviously is a whole other can of worms, But I 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.160 think I think it goes back to finding the root 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:46.400 calls for why people are divisive? What what is? What 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:48.840 is the thing? What is the reason? You know? I live? 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.240 Has been made about people economically hurting and then taking 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:55.040 it out in certain ways or Yeah, I just I 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.960 just feel if we recognize the people across from us 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.600 as human beings with nuance opinions that have read things 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:02.520 you haven't read, it to watch movies that you haven't watched, 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.520 that have had tragedies happened to them that haven't happened 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.240 to you, and taking a second go, maybe there's some 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.840 summation of their life experiences, life experiences that have led 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:12.920 them there and being empathetic to that. And that's hard 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:14.679 to do a hund forty characters, I will grant you, 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:16.680 but just knowing that that's possible, that that's even a 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:18.639 possibility is something I don't feel like a lot of 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.760 people are doing. They just summarily reject the thing that happens. 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.200 What I've had. I had a couple of people share 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.399 the piece you wrote, and I think it resonated with 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.240 a lot of people. Um, what kind of reactions have 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.080 you had? Did people? Were there people who? Because I 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:34.840 mean I could see it going kind of two ways 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:36.840 where they're like, yeah, this is a real issue. Or 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.800 another reaction is I'm all for empathy, but why should 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:45.760 I try to see the perspective of racist, xenophobic knuckle draggers. Yeah, 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:47.680 And so I'm curious, like, what kind of reaction do 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.840 you got? So there's a line right where? And I 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:53.440 think racism is that line when someone just being outright 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:57.600 racist me reasoning with you might not go anywhere. And 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:03.119 I think that line is further back than people think. 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:10.000 I think people advocate for certain you know, policy positions 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.080 or the certain ways the country should work, and they're 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.919 rejected as being out of touch or dumb or naive. 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:21.440 And I think that all I'm asking is like take 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:26.199 the step path that And I think I think I 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.800 think that patience is what's needed. And it's easy to 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.280 say that when someone's not being racist towards you, and 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:34.320 I grant that a million times out of a million, 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.520 but I just I just think dismissing someone as stupid 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:40.040 or bigoted or not having all the facts, like, just 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.600 take take a second, I guess all I would. So 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.760 what was the reaction like, So the reaction there was 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.240 two bits of reaction, which were three bits of reaction, 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.679 which you're interesting overwhelmingly, which is very thankful when you 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:53.879 write stuff and this doesn't normally happen, but people like 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:55.720 this was great, this was helpful, thank you, And some 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:57.760 people were said, I noticed I do this in my 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.800 own life when this was happening gamer Gate was going 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.480 on in full then, so a lot of people reached 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.080 out to me about that. We're like, oh, I understand 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:09.080 the other uh part. Now. Secondly, was what I said before, 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:13.080 what happens when they're just wrong, factually wrong, And what 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:14.439 I would say is get to the point of why 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.400 they believe what they believe. And then third, I think 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.359 the most troubling aspect of this is people who were 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:25.120 closed minded used that article as a weapon to say 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.520 why people that weren't them were closed minded, right, which 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:33.080 is like an infinite loop. Yeah, which and I purposely 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.000 try to as best I can use the language of 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:36.919 the other side, because the other side is different things 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:41.000 to different people. But then people use that to justify 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:42.840 the fact that, like, more people should listen to me. 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:46.240 You see, I'm I'm part of the other side. You 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.679 should take me seriously. But everyone thinks the other side, 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.560 and everyone thinks that they're the marginalized one exactly, and 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.159 and some people are right, but it's it's I've had 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.240 people say thank you for this article. I use this 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:03.439 to uh, you know, all those those damn feminazis online. 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.359 I finally I should I said this to all of 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.639 them to shut them up. And I'm like, did you 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.560 listen to what they were saying, you know, to take 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.040 up take a minute? Why did they feel that way? 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.879 Just just just don't don't use this as another weapon. Alright, 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.440 a plead for some civility on the internet. Why don't 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.639 we leave it there, Sean, thank you so much for 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:31.639 joining us, Thanks for having me. Thank you, Joe. I 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.840 know that wasn't as market see as a lot of 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:35.760 our other episodes, but what do you think about that. 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:40.760 I think this is just such an important topic because, 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:44.880 as I was saying before, it's really hard to be 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:51.840 that optimistic about democracy if these trends towards walling yourself 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:57.240 off to only like minded argument and only facts that 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.440 could support your side. If we continue with that trend, 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.960 it seems like a certain um level of valuing debate 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:08.879 and a certain some degree of a shared set of 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.120 effects seems to be sort of a crucial ingredient. Yeah, 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:16.000 and I think this idea of the Balkanization of opinions 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:20.119 is incredibly relevant now obviously in politics for democracy, as 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.720 you pointed out, but again also when it comes to investing. 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.040 And I know that there have been reams written about 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:31.320 confirmation bias and investing cognitive biases, that sort of thing. 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.160 But really it seems more important than ever to kind 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:37.880 of stop and think about what the other side is saying. 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:40.879 And if you manage to do that right, if you 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:47.080 managed to gauge increasingly divided public opinions correctly, you could 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:49.520 make a lot of money, and um, maybe you could 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:52.240 come to understand your fellow man a little bit more 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:56.879 as well. Yeah. The bregsit um, the breggsit vote obviously 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:00.240 a huge opportunity for people to make money had they 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.639 had a different perspective than the mainstream, you know, even 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.119 within investing in economics. It's kind of fascinating how people 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.520 form certain camps like the gold camp or the anti 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.080 fed camp, or the tech camp or whatever. And so 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:17.320 I think that there is probably almost always an opportunity 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:21.399 for profit if you force yourself out of um how 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:23.560