1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our superproducer Paul 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: Mission Control decond. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, 8 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: to know. Today's episode is going to be a little 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: bit different from our usual explorations. Were following up on 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: a great conversation we had in an earlier Weekly Listener 12 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: Mail segment. Here's the deal. Shout out to drs, not 13 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: the Atlanta DRS. There's a guy named DR's in Atlanta 14 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: who looks like a wizard, like straight up Gandolf. You've 15 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: got to meet him one day. He does excellent postcard art. Totally. 16 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: I will introduce you guys. You may have met him already. No, 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: but but here's the deal, folks. Durs fellow conspiracy realist. 18 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,559 Speaker 1: The world as we know it has been around way, way, way, 19 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: way way longer than human beings, a way longer than 20 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: their ancestors. Humans are sort of a fad and kind 21 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: of disrespectful guest. That's not a hot tap, that's just 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: objectively true. Earth also doesn't really need people. When their 23 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: population was relatively small, they fit in the same way 24 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: another apex predator would fit into its natural biomerico system. 25 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: But that has changed, and the change is only escalating 26 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: as humanity grows and in Biggins, it's technological pursuits. In short, 27 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: civilization is reaching a bra game point where it's already 28 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: past it, which is my personal belief. So today we 29 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: are looking at a plan, a philosophy, a movement, a 30 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: set of practices that, according to its proponents, may just 31 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: help save the world or at the very least keep 32 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: it going a little while longer. And before we introduced 33 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: this plan, which we can't wait to talk about with you, 34 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: we've got to we've got to give you some of 35 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: the ugly, ugly truths. So here are the facts. Uh, 36 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: the world's in trouble. It doesn't matter who you vote for, 37 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you're an atheist or you have really 38 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: you know, deeply held spiritual beliefs up the wrong river 39 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: without the right paddle. That has planet Earth and I 40 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: was hoping everything was fine. This is horrible news. Yeah, 41 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: that's fine. If you look to especially the American West, 42 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: if you look to Europe, the United Kingdom, areas across 43 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: the world, you can we see the effects that are 44 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: happening now, that are happening throughout the year, every year 45 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: now and ramping up in the cold weather and the 46 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: hot weather, in the dry weather, in the wet weather, 47 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: all the weather. It's just not not doing us any favors, 48 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: um and that's likely because we we haven't really been 49 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: doing the planet many favors. No, we sure haven't. I 50 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: mean we're starting to see, you know, things like water 51 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: and natural resources become the ultimate currency. And if you look, 52 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: you know, down the line to the future, it's not 53 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: that hard to imagine a world where people are literally 54 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: killing each other over these resources as they become more 55 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: and more scarce and climates become less and less habitable. Yes, 56 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: so what's happening here is this is happening in South 57 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: Asia and Southeast Asia. Throughout Indonesia. A lot of places 58 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: that were wet are dry. A lot of places that 59 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: are supposed to be dry are unsea reasonably wet. As 60 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: we record right now, Uh, there is one country that 61 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: maybe the first country ever to go completely underwater in 62 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: the modern days. That is the Maldives or Maldives. Uh. This. 63 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: I've been off the grid, as you guys know, we 64 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: we don't really talk about a lot of stuff on air, 65 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: but I've been off the grid, and I've been traveling 66 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: in places where the weather is famously different from what 67 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: it's supposed to be. Right, I've been in a place, 68 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: um for I've been traveling through a couple of different 69 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: places in a part of the world that's normably sort 70 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: of dismal and wet. And for for a while over 71 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: the summer, people loved that it wasn't raining because they 72 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: could go out and have fun with you know, their 73 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: kids and their pets and stuff. But now they're getting 74 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: to that oh snap moment where they're thinking, oh, right, 75 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: the plants kind of need that water. So what we're 76 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: seeing our short term, short term enjoyment, long term consequences, 77 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: and for while, for a while, people were fine to 78 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: ignore them. The first conspiracy, which I feel like everybody 79 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: should acknowledge these days, is that many of the scientists, 80 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: the boffins, the eggheads, the academics, whatever you want, to 81 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: call them that said the climate was just fine or 82 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: downplayed the extremity of environmental degradation. They were, in fact 83 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: paid to lie. They were paid by large corporations, you know, 84 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: chemical manufacturers, energy companies, to uh to try to politicize 85 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: the problem, to say that, you know, for some reason, 86 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: carrying about water makes you far left or whatever, or 87 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: that if you're far right, you shouldn't care what happens 88 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: to the soil that makes the food that you and 89 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: your family eat. They were very successful about this. They 90 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: were downplaying pollution. They tried to throw a veneer of normalcy, 91 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: the dog and the burning house meme vibe. They tried 92 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: to throw that over an increasingly chaotic climate. And even 93 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: they had to know, right, they had to know that 94 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: couldn't work forever. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And it didn't. Well, actually, 95 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: it's still kind of working today because a lot of 96 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: the messaging that was put out there, as you kind 97 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 1: of stated there been, was to muddy the message, to 98 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: muddy the science, to make sure people believed that the 99 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: science was always out on climate change. We don't know 100 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: for sure what's happening with it. We don't know for 101 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: sure if humans had anything to do with it. Uh, 102 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: so let's just continue on as we're continuing on and 103 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: not think about it too much. So as of one, Um, 104 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: we've got some pretty good data from the pre industrial era, 105 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: you know, when the you know, kind of the advent 106 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: of like serious pollution. UM to the right. Now, Uh, 107 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: the global temperature has in fact, this is this is 108 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: a thing. This is real. This is not some sort 109 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: of you know, uh, liberal conjecture. Um. It has increased 110 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: by about one point two degrees celsius or the much 111 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: more shocking two Americans anyway, thirty four point one six 112 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit. We had to stop for a second and 113 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: do a double thick and make sure the math was right. 114 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: It is right. It doesn't seem like much, but it 115 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: also it's kind of significant. Um, it's it's a big deal. 116 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: It's quite extraordinary. The world's oceans alone are actually absorbing 117 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: the heat equivalent of five atomic bomb drops like Hiroshima 118 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: atomic bombs dropping into the water every single second. Think 119 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: about the vast amount of energy one atomic bomb generates. 120 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: This is five of those dropping into the water every 121 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: single second, just from atmospheric conditions, just from like ambient heat. Yeah, 122 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: it's just the heat. It's it's getting hot and not 123 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: not in a cool like party on the weekend. Way, well, 124 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: you might it is getting hot in here. You might 125 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: have to as a matter of survival. But well, we'll 126 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: talk about wet bulk We'll talk about wet bulb temperature. Uh. 127 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: We we talked about that in the previous episode, So 128 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: check that out if you want to be depressed. So, 129 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: these conspiracies are real. Don't ever forget. This goes deeper 130 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: than a government's debt. Right. So to add to this, 131 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: a lot of modern industries are only exacerbating the problem, 132 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: and they are doing so knowingly. Logging is a huge 133 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: issue in some of the world's last large green spaces. 134 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: If wet bulb temperature doesn't depress you enough, if you 135 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: still feel like you have a spark of optimism or 136 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: you're having fun one day, then check out what's happening 137 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: to the Amazon. Uh. There's deforestation of course in other places, 138 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: massive massive irrigation projects, pollution, industrial by products. I just 139 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: read recently that if you get uh, if you get 140 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: chicken eggs from a city like you know your friends 141 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 1: have a chicken cooper or something, they're likely to have 142 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: more lead than eggs out in the countryside. It's saying 143 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: everybody plastics and everything. Yeah, yeah, I mean, uh, mono agriculture, 144 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: you know, like the way people grow bananas, the reason 145 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: the first commercial banana crop went extinct. Ak the reason 146 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: banana candy doesn't taste like the bananas you get now, Uh, 147 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: mono agriculture robs ecosystems of their natural checks and balances. 148 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: These are very old systems that have existed long before 149 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: humans started fussing around under the hood. They make these 150 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: feedback loops where farmers and agribusiness rely increasingly on artificial 151 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: solutions to problems that uh, they themselves have arguably created. 152 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: You know, like thinking neo nicotinoids and pesticides, extinctions running rampant. 153 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: You know. Um, this the generations listening now maybe some 154 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: of the last generations to be around when certain large 155 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: wild animals were still wild. And on this side of 156 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: the ground, there's a ripple effect every time a species dies. Look, 157 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: the game can't go on forever unless we find some solutions. 158 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: And this is where you know, this is the light 159 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: at the end of the tunnel, hopefully for the true believers, 160 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: right they like, we know all these solutions, reduce, reuse, recycle. 161 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: What are the other ones? Oh? Oh, paper straws. I 162 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: sound like a jerk. Sorry, stop drop and roll. Yeah, 163 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: oh no, that's different. Yeah, yes, Conserve your energy, use 164 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: your water, use your heat, use everything. Like, just cut 165 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: back as much as you can. Everybody. The thing is 166 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: everybody doesn't always do it. Yeah. Maybe don't water your 167 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: golf course, you know, quite as exorbitantly. Oh you have to, 168 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: and so how else? How else will we have golf courses? 169 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: Hey don't. It's a sunk cost, all right. I bought 170 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: the Altman farm and the golf course, and one day 171 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: I'm gonna learn to play golf. So I need that 172 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: thing ready, I need I need the water. It's a 173 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: sunk cost. It's it's a it's a sunk put baby, 174 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: that's what it is. Get on that green. It's not 175 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: green without water. Otherwise it's the brown. That's not cool. 176 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to put on the brown. Has there ever 177 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: been an exclusive high level astro turf to golf course, 178 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: like the whole thing is like a mini putt put course. 179 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: Surely they've made leaps and bounds in astro turf technology, 180 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: like they could do that it's just a flex to 181 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: not do that. I don't know the answer. I've got 182 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: top golf in places like that, you know, like for 183 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: driving ranges that's probably not real grass. I'm sure it's 184 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: more like those are like the batting cages of golf. 185 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's absurd how many, how much resources and 186 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: energy and you know, landscaping, hand water get literally poured 187 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: into what amounts to like a a playground for the wealthy. 188 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: It's funny you mentioned this because there is a controversy. 189 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: There has been a push to have AstroTurf or artificial 190 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: turf golf courses. But athletes, golfers, you know, and uh, 191 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the golfing enthusiasts are a bit traditionalists 192 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 1: in their view. They prefer the natural grass, even though 193 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: it could be used to you know, grow crops stuff 194 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: like that, but when not to yuck someone's you just 195 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: realized there are there. We are of the mind on 196 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: this show that there's almost always a way around a problem. 197 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: There is a solution, and the three of us have 198 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: been in crazy situations where we found weird innovations of 199 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: our own um, which might be a story for a 200 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: live show. All the weird stuff we've gotten into. But 201 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: but yeah, there's a lot of um what people call 202 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: misallocation of things right, miss prioritization of wants and knee. 203 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: There are golf courses of plenty that do suck up 204 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: a lot of water, while there are people dying from 205 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: lack of potable water, lack of clean water. And there 206 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: are these corporate initiatives that come around that purport to 207 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: address these concerns right, reduce, reuse, recycle. Often they put 208 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: the burden of the action on the consumer rather than 209 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: taking accountability as a as the business creating the problem. 210 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: Right now, it's not our fault that we've made so 211 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: many microplastics and seated them in the ocean. It's your fault, 212 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: you dick, because you drink with plastic straws. That's and 213 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: that's the implication. It's not our fault that there's teflon 214 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: falling from the skies and nargica. Why did you buy 215 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: all those pots and pans? Come on, but those other 216 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: straws get all soggy like a pasta noodle. They're weird, 217 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: you know, give me my plastic straw. I'm kidding. They've 218 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: made leaps and bounds once again in non plastic straw technology. 219 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: I keep using this term, and I'm going to keep 220 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: using it. Yeah, I'm gonna You know what I love 221 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: about this one is I can see just the way 222 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: that automobile companies vilify pedestrians back in the day by 223 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: creating the crime of jaywalking. I could see I could 224 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: see some of the big plastic movers of vilifying people 225 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: by creating the crime of slow drinking. The problem is 226 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: not the paper straw. It's all these slow drinkers. You 227 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: know what I mean, slow drink Call this number. You 228 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: could be part of the problem. Report your loved ones 229 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: for slow drinking. Um. Have you seen, you know at 230 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: bars where you get those really tiny straws and like 231 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: it takes like four of them to amount to a 232 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: regular straw. Those are kind of designed for slow drinking, 233 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: if you think about it. Okay, so that's the real problem. 234 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: We're done with this episode. Then it's slow drinking, guys, 235 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: drink faster. Drinking faster is the new drink responsibly that's 236 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: not gonna come back to buy us. Well, Okay, here's 237 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: the thing. There's so many solutions, many of which are 238 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: proposed in good faith, and a lot of them address 239 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: one aspect of this bigger Gordian knot of what the 240 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: hell do people do to continue living on the planet. Um, 241 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: this is where our story. This is where our story 242 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: comes in because there's one solution that we had talked about, 243 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: an approach you could say, of philosophy. It's made a 244 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: lot of waves in recent decades. It comes to us 245 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: courtesy of our friends down Under. It comes from Australia 246 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: and Tasmania. It's something known as perma culture, a portmanteau 247 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: of permanent agriculture and permanent culture. And perman culture is 248 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: going to be kind of confusing to people, I think 249 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: when you first are introduced to it, because it's sort 250 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: of a gastalt whole system them approach, it's a I 251 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: don't know. Um, let's see. It's it's the idea that 252 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: you can create a means of integrating human activity with 253 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: natural surroundings, creating a highly efficient, self sustaining ecosystem, so 254 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: that humans instead of trying to impose change on an ecosystem. Right, 255 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: we only grow bananas here now, even though it used 256 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: to be a very bio diverse jungle. Instead, you say, 257 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: we're going to fit ourselves into this system. We're going 258 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: to become a helpful part of it pretty you know, beautiful, right, 259 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: circle of life and so on. Yeah, well even even 260 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: down to the concept of we don't need grass lawns 261 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: anymore anywhere, we can use the like you said, the 262 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: ecosystem that existed and wherever that place is, and just 263 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: make sure that ecosystem thrives and you can make it beautiful. 264 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: You can grow things on there, like the flowers you 265 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: want or the food even that you could eat. Uh, 266 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: it's it's a really interesting philosophy. Uh that, like you said, 267 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: been really just focused on using what's there and not 268 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: destroying the living system that already flourishes. Is this like 269 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: a biodome type situation? Like are we talking greenhouse like 270 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 1: hot houses and things like that? Are not at all? No? Okay, 271 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: maybe I'm not quite getting my head around, Like where 272 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: do you well, yeah, a little bit right, like where 273 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't have a lawn, what are 274 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: you using and using like planter boxes or you're like 275 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: like raised beds, you know, Like what are we talking 276 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: modifying the it's modifying the existing like plants that grow 277 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: in that area to however you want them, Like you 278 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: could you can change what grows where kind of but 279 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: it's also working. Well, let's get into it. Well, that's yeah, 280 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: here's what I mean. But when I say when I 281 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: say it's kind of like a greenhouse, it's like Earth 282 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: as a big greenhouse. And there are series of interrelated 283 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: sections or neighborhoods we could call them. Uh that that 284 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: sort of edge into one another and overlap edges are 285 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: big in the concept of of permaculture. Uh, it's this 286 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: idea also has some surprising overlap with some precepts carved 287 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: in the recently demolished Georgia guidestones, the notably the idea 288 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: that humanity, one way or another, should strive to exist 289 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: in balance with nature. That gave a lot of folks 290 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 1: who are worried about population control and eugenics a slight 291 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: eye twitch. And you should have a slight eye twitch, folks. Uh, 292 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: this at heart sounds like a noble aspiration, but we 293 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: have to ask why has it encountered so much criticism 294 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: over the years, over the decades. And pause for word 295 00:18:51,560 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and then we'll dive in. Here's where 296 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. Okay, we we we said some feel 297 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 1: good stuff, right we we we talked about the problems. 298 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: I think we were pretty realistic. So how okay, background, 299 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: what what is Perman culture? I spent a ton of 300 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: time reading about this and people agree vaguely but not 301 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: specifically all the time. It's it's a philosophical thing, right Ben, 302 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: So much like a philosophy class. It's like, well, nobody really, 303 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: you know, has nailed this concept fully down, but we 304 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: got a vague idea, we got a thought cloud around it. Well, 305 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: I mean, well, let's start with the originator perhaps of 306 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: the thought cloud. It's it's a dude, um from Tasmania. 307 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: You sort of mentioned that at the top of the show, Ben, 308 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: that we we're borrowing a lot of these ideas from 309 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: our brethren in Australia and Tasmania. This guy's name is 310 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: Bill Mollison, was born in nineteen and a little fishing 311 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 1: village called Stanley in Tasmania. Uh it sounds very quaint. 312 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: I love a quaint fishing village named Stanley. Like villages 313 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: named after people always, you know, I like cats named 314 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: after people. Why not villages? Um? Mollison he left school 315 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,959 Speaker 1: early in his life and he took to you know, 316 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: to becoming a tradesman. He worked for a number of 317 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: varying jobs before he you know, found his like true calling. 318 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: He was a baker, He worked in a mill. He 319 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: was a seaman, you know, at sea. I don't know 320 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: if it was a captain. I guess he was just 321 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: like maybe a sailor, you know. Uh, he was a 322 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: trapper even for a little while. He fished, but exclusively 323 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: for sharks. That's that's tough. Are we sure he wasn't 324 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: just jumping into the oceans with a knife to fight 325 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: the sharks, like, are we sure? Or or jumping over 326 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: a sharks on a jet ski like like in the 327 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: Happy Days, uh series finale? Or maybe he was getting 328 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: fish for the sharks. You know, he might have just 329 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: been like the moving moving the prey for the sharks. 330 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: You know, his his demo might have been there's like 331 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: customers might have been great whites. Sharks are apparently not 332 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: super good eating because they're just so sinewy. They're like 333 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: one big muscle. Yeah, they're grilled all dark meat and 334 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: kind of game. Was my understanding. A lot of omnivo 335 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: omnivorous animals don't taste especially great. That's the reason why 336 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: in English people say to eat crow as mean as 337 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, you have to like, uh, you have to 338 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: have some humble pie or whatever. You have to eat 339 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: a trash bird. And you guys know, I love Corvitt's. 340 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: They're very, very intelligent, but they taste like garbage because 341 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: they eat garbage. Same with foxes. Catfish, Yeah, sage in garbage. Yeah, exactly, 342 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: just a catfish though, But you gotta fry the hell 343 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: out of it, right, what's is that like? It takes. Yeah, 344 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: you gotta get them small. The bigger they are, at 345 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: least in my experience, the less the tasty they are. 346 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: But let us know your mileage, baby arey. So yeah, 347 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: you describe it so perfectly. He is a jack of 348 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: all trades for a while is Mollison And eventually he 349 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: goes to a place called the Wildlife Survey Section of 350 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: Australia's Science Research Organization something called c s I r 351 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: OH and then he spends time at the Inland Fisheries 352 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: Commission of Tasmania. So he's there for more than a 353 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: decade and this leads him to kind of a bit 354 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: of a walk about. I guess it's a reflective period 355 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: in his life. He spends a lot of time, mostly 356 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: solitary in the wilderness of Tasmania. He learns about the forest, 357 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: he has intimate understanding of the coastal ecosyst stims and 358 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: his life continues, but this leaves a huge mark on him. 359 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty eight, he becomes a tutor at the 360 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: University of Tasmania and then later he becomes the senior 361 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: lecturer in environmental psychology, which sounds pretty interesting if you 362 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: read that on a syllabus. Right. Uh. While he's while 363 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: he's teaching there, Yeah, while he's teaching there, he meets 364 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: up with his padawan, the guy who will become his 365 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,959 Speaker 1: co creator of perma culture. His name is Dave. David 366 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: Holmgren is a student at the Tasmanian College of Advanced Education, 367 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: and together part in the pun they will sow the 368 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: seeds of perma culture. Because they start asking themselves all 369 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: these questions. They say, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, 370 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: hold up, pump the brakes, scratch the record. Why does 371 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: humanity impose all these short term goals on fragile ecosystems? 372 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: Why don't we just crib the research that the natural 373 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: world has already done for millions of years. It's created 374 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: these entire systems why don't we just work with what 375 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: already works, makes sustainable ways of creating food with long term, 376 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: less damaging solutions. Why don't we work within the system, 377 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: right and only change it a little when we need to. 378 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: This this really hit me, you guys, because as we see, 379 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: we see that mimic mimicry of the natural world is 380 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: increasingly becoming the forefront of technology in multiple fields. At 381 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: some point in any given number of disciplines, especially in engineering, 382 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: some bright mind says, hang on, the solution to this 383 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: already exists in nature, right. There's a reason eggs are spherical, 384 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: or you know, uh, there's a reason that hexagons are 385 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: in beehives, stuff like that. So why don't we, Like 386 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: spider silk is already a better ingredient for bulletproof vest 387 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: why don't we just do that? So that's what they're doing. 388 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: They're taking this idea and they're saying, why don't we 389 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: just do the stuff that was already well figured out 390 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: before humans came on the scene. Exactly. It's amazing And 391 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: that's not the only thing, right, So they've got nature 392 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: systems and how they work already, why don't we use those? 393 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: And why don't we look to the past a little 394 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: bit to see how humanity has been manipulating the earth 395 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: before we came up with all this industrialization, with all 396 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: these machines that have to do one thing for one 397 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: crop and then get as many, you know, many pieces 398 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: of corn out of the earth as we possibly can 399 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: every year. So these guys ordered their names Molison and Holmgren, 400 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: they're like, they're the modern movement guys, right, But if 401 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: you look a little bit further back to just an 402 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: all around badass guy, George Washington Carver, while he was 403 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: working at the Tuskegee Institute, he developed ways to instead 404 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,239 Speaker 1: of just planting one crop all the time in this 405 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: one plot of land, he was developing crop rotation strategies. 406 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: And the whole point was to make sure the soil 407 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: that the crops were going to be grown in. As 408 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: you rotate crops out, get new kinds of nutrients in 409 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: that soil, and each one that you put in next 410 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 1: is gaining benefits from the crop that was in there beforehand, right, 411 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: and if you just kind of continue that cycle. And 412 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: this was focused very much so on basically the American South, 413 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: like southern farmlands that were existing and thriving at the 414 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: time when when he was working on this, but they 415 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: needed help. You know what, what do we need to 416 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: add to the soil to make sure that these crops 417 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: are going to be fruitful? Well, hey, what if we 418 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: just cycle crops through? Yeah, making avengers? Right, why don't 419 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: we Why don't we vultry these things up? That's the 420 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: problem with mono agriculture, right, because plant take different things 421 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: from the soil and they bring different things to the soil. 422 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: So if you have one crop taking the same thing 423 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: all the time and giving the same stuff all the time, 424 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: eventually the dirt's gonna go bad. Which sounds so Southern Gothic, 425 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: but that's part of where it comes from. The soil 426 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: is sour. Yes, yes, in Maine as well. Always hear 427 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: that in the Fred Gwyn voice. Yeah, but it's true. 428 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it. It can be depleted, you know, 429 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: the the dirt needs to have these nutrients, and if 430 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: you rotate them out, like you're saying, man um, one 431 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: thing is depleted in one cycle and then it's renewed 432 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: in the next, and vice versa. And that's why that's 433 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: important to that crop rotation is like a really, uh, 434 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: absolute game changer. In agriculture when this was kind of 435 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: you know, figured out. Yeah, and the game was changed 436 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of years ago in places across the 437 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: plant Yeah, people figured crop rotation. Uh. In the over 438 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: in the United States for millennia, multiple multiple Native American 439 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: communities knew about this. I'm thinking particularly of something always 440 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: fascinated me at least the It's a concept called intercropping, 441 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: which is a little bit different from crop rotation. UH. 442 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,360 Speaker 1: Inter Cropping is where these folks would grow things at 443 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: the same time because they figured out these crops complement 444 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: each other's strengths and weaknesses, the stuff they give and 445 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: the stuff they take. So the most famous of these 446 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: are the Three Sisters Corn basically beans and squash. Maize 447 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: or corn is infamous for being a nitrogen vampire. It 448 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: will take it wants all the nitrogen out of the dirt. 449 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: But beans, on the other hand, put nitrogen back into 450 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: the soil. And so when you plant these and you 451 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: plant these long with squash, what you're doing is you're 452 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: making up for a disadvantage of one, right, and you 453 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: get a little bit of insurance because hey, your squash 454 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: crop goes bad, don't worry, You're growing. You're growing corn 455 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: and beans and the same acre, so you're gonna be okay, 456 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna have something to eat. And modern scientists looked 457 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 1: back and said, actually, this intercropping, this growing stuff at 458 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: the same time instead of switching, you know, year to year, 459 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: season to season. This is way better than modern mono 460 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: agricultural practices. You get more energy, more protein, get more 461 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: bang for your landscaping buck. So again we see that 462 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: not every solution need be brand spaking new and just 463 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: maybe ancient civilizations knew more than modern society likes to 464 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: give them credit for. Uh and this is something big 465 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: in perman culture. Like you were saying, if we may 466 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: be the best way to explain this idea without its 467 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: sounding to like preachy or pr ish or vague and 468 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: woo woo, is for us to just enumerate the principles 469 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: or the axioms, the guiding tenants or ethics of permaculture. 470 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: They're just three. It's pretty simple until you get to 471 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: the third one. Yeah, and they really do. We We 472 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: mentioned this when we when we talked about uh unders. 473 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: There's there's uh as email um. They are very guide 474 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: stone z kind of philosophical tenants and it is possible 475 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: to enter the wu uh if if if you're not careful. Um. 476 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: But but they are also very sensible, like you said, 477 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: been up to a point. When then it starts to 478 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,719 Speaker 1: maybe generate a few questions. But first one care of 479 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: the Earth, you know, that's that some classic day one 480 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: Earth day stuff, provision for all life systems to continue 481 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: and multiply. Um. Then we cover you know, people who 482 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: live on the earth, and the care of people. Provision 483 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: for people to access those resources necessary for their existence 484 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: so they can also you know, continue and multiply presumably um. 485 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: Then then there's stones bit that's the one maybe sending 486 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: limits to population and consumption. By governing our own needs, 487 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: we can set resources aside to further the above principles. Yeah, 488 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: Melissa and Homegrin are like stop banging, stop banging each other. 489 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: Not they're they're not really, I mean, they're they're saying, 490 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: they're saying, let's let's not treat humanity as this Ponzi 491 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,479 Speaker 1: scheme that always has to expand, right, And they're they're, 492 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: you know, they're thinking of this in the late nineties seventies. YEA, 493 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: always shoot for a surplus, right always, and and when 494 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: you have surplus spread around, don't just take it for 495 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,719 Speaker 1: whatever profit or whatever you're thinking about using it for. 496 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, that doesn't sound very American. That sounds 497 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: like communist talk there, what share the surplus? That's not 498 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: how we do business in this country. Read, you guys 499 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: are getting a little bit read it's I mean, it's 500 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: it's true. And we'll we'll run into one of that's 501 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: one of the issues that critics have. Actually, But this 502 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: if we just look at it structurally, like we apply 503 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: structural thought to this in an objective way, then what 504 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna see is this is an example of what 505 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: is sometimes confusingly called whole system thinking a gastalt effect. Right. 506 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: So um. An example of this would be, or a 507 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: counter counter example of this would be in a lot 508 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: of modern farming techniques, you're going to see one kind 509 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: of plant being grown, right, one kind of crop. Anything 510 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: that anything else that's growing there is a weed or 511 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: it's counter to that purpose. And maybe further, maybe you 512 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: are a farmer who's growing a crop and you only 513 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: want the edible part. You say, I don't really have 514 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: a use for these stems and these sticks and whatever, right, uh, 515 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: And that is an example of kind of single system thinking, 516 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: I want this one thing, I will move all the 517 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: variable such that it produces this one thing I want 518 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: and the rest be damned. Uh. The idea of perman culture, 519 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: at least as advanced by Mollison in his book perman 520 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: Culture one, is this. It's a kind of beautiful idea. 521 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: It's the idea that you can watch closely over time 522 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: how the system already works, and if you do that, 523 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: you can find ways to help it work for you 524 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: without breaking the whole crazy Rube Goldberg esque mouse trap 525 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: that is every ecosystem, right, without accidentally triggering a domino effect. 526 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: You can say, this is what this animal does, this 527 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: is how it affects these other things in the chain, 528 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: and this is what this plant does and how it 529 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: affects these other things. And here's where I fit in. 530 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: I can get in here as a human being, meet 531 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 1: my needs and then also maybe ideally help the system overall. Right, 532 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: I can play a part in this cycle instead of 533 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: just saying, well, there's been going okay for millions of years, 534 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,439 Speaker 1: but I want to grow corn. Nothing to see here, 535 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: nice ecosystem you got there would be a shame if 536 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: something happened to it um. It makes me think of 537 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: this film I think you guys have both seen we 538 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: may have talked about a fantastic fungi or fungi um 539 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: just about like you know, it's about psilocybin and psychedelic mushrooms. 540 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: But the thing that's most fascinating to me abou out 541 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: it is just how complex the system that mushrooms are 542 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: a part of is that they are designed to return 543 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: decaying matter back into the system and turn them into 544 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: like fertilizer that then enriches the soil and then it 545 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: comes back around and they communicate through this like crazy 546 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: subterranean networks of like fibers, you know, and all this stuff. 547 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: And it really is kind of like kind of psychedelic 548 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: and of itself just to how this this stuff works 549 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,760 Speaker 1: so well without us. It doesn't need us. If anything, 550 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: we're like a wrench in the works. So I do 551 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: like this idea of like, look at these incredible complex 552 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: systems that that do not require us at all, and 553 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: they work better than anything we could have ever like 554 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 1: you know, figured out on our own. So why not 555 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: just play nice and be a part of the solution 556 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: instead of always trying to play god and change things. 557 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: You know, agreed. I mean you can tell already to 558 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: that this pursuit, this concept of perma culture is then, 559 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: by its very nature, it's multidisciplinary, meaning it incorporates all 560 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: sorts of stuff. It's it's it's grabbing. Um. It's like, 561 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: if you are a perma culturist, you're sort of like 562 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: that guy girl Talk who remixes all these parts of 563 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,800 Speaker 1: various songs right into a seamless coherent narrative. A perma 564 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: culture practitioner takes pieces of meteorology, biochemistry, integrated farming, organic farming, uh, 565 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 1: agro forestry, even physics, and they put it all together 566 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: to say, what can I apply to this context? And 567 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: perma culture is very much all about context. We're gonna 568 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: see one of the main criticisms of it depends on this. 569 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: Uh there's we can get into this a little more too. 570 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: In addition to those three ethics, Um, there's another book 571 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: Perma Culture Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability, where Dave I 572 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: guess I shouldn't call him, we haven't met David Holmegrin 573 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: lays out twelve more specific principles. I don't know if 574 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,439 Speaker 1: we want to list them. All, but they're they're they're 575 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: pretty basic stuff and there's still kind of high level 576 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: systemic things. It's all about observation when intervening. How I 577 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 1: think we should put this in at least to some extent, 578 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: Maybe we could just read it really quickly because this 579 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: is the stuff there DS was focused on with the 580 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: company that he created and we talked about in that 581 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: listener Mail episode. So I think that I think this 582 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: could be important. Well, let's round robin him. Then, Uh, Matt, 583 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: why don't you do the honors? Sure? Number one is 584 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: to observe and interact, and that just means taking time 585 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: to engage with nature in whatever place you're you're looking at, 586 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, changing and using permaculture on to design solutions 587 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: that suit a particular situation it's need to. Some of 588 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: these can be applied philosophically to other disciplines to to 589 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: speak to the whole interdisciplinary nature of the thing, like 590 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: this one. Catch and store energy, develop systems that collect 591 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: resources at peak abundance for use in times of need, 592 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: like you can apply that to you know, um solar 593 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: power and the idea of being able to store solar 594 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: power in a grid and Earlan batteries or whatever to 595 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: use later, which obviously it's difficult, but it is you know, 596 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: a concept that could be applied to broader things other 597 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: than just you know, crops or in this case often water, 598 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: right likely capturing water in a rain barrel or things 599 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: like that. There's lots of things that you can do 600 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 1: that would be very helpful. All right, So I would 601 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: just uh blaze through the next two because these are 602 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: kind of short. Obtain a yield, emphasized projects that generate 603 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: meaningful rewards that can apply to anything in your life. 604 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: For apply self regulation and accept feedback. Discourage inappropriate activity 605 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: to ensure that systems function well. No inappropriate activity here, right, 606 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 1: anthrocentric aspect right where you could say, hey, buddy, stop, 607 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,959 Speaker 1: I know you love unias or something, but they don't 608 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 1: belong here, and stop planting them just because you think 609 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: they're pretty. But it also has a structural implication where 610 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: you could say, for instance, um, we need to discourage 611 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: the growth of this thing because it is maybe invasive 612 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: or it's not helping the ecosystem. Right. I'd be very 613 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: interested to see what permaculture experts think of kadzu in 614 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: the American South, which is just or what is this 615 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: starlings like? Wasn't it like some like Shakespeare aficionado or 616 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,720 Speaker 1: mega Shakespeare fans that introduced starlings and it was a massive, 617 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: massive mistake. Yes, sorry, So let's move on, guys. Uh, 618 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: Number five is using value renewable resources and services makes sense? 619 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: I mean we we get that reduced consumption and dependence 620 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: on non renewable resources. Done at this one, I'm gonna 621 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: go to the next one. Guys, produce no waste value 622 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: and employ all available resources waste nothing, pretty standard tenant. 623 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: We've got next design from patterns to details. I like 624 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: this one. Um, observe patterns in nature and society and 625 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: use them to inform designs later adding details. This is 626 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: so neat, Like I've always been fascinated by just the 627 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,439 Speaker 1: the nature of complex systems and what are we if 628 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: not like in a web of like one of the 629 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: most complex systems you know in all of creation, which 630 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 1: is like the natural world. Um, And if you pull 631 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: back and zoom out and take a look at how 632 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 1: the systems work, like with the mushrooms and the decaying 633 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: and all of that, you can kind of get a 634 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: sense of how you can apply these systems to like 635 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 1: other things. Yeah, and then next there would be integrate 636 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,320 Speaker 1: rather than segregate, which I quite like. Uh. The concept 637 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: is proper to designs allow relationships to develop between design elements, 638 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: allowing them to work together to support each other. So 639 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: in agricultural terms, that's saying, don't have one field for corn. 640 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 1: Do the three sisters approach, Try some intercroppy. It's a 641 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,360 Speaker 1: it's a rising tide carries all vessels sort of philosophy 642 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: applied to ecology, which is pretty brilliant in my opinion, 643 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: And it even has to do with design elements what 644 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: it even says in there, which is really interesting to me. 645 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, guys that I have such a small scope 646 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: on this, but I just went to Dura's website and 647 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: looked at some of the projects he's worked on, and 648 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: this concept of of integrating even in the design right, 649 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: not even the actual crops or or the plants that 650 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: are being put in certain places. It's just how it looks, 651 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: where where the earth is moved up and where it's 652 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: moved down, and how water actually flows through the system 653 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: when when it rains. Now, because of how it was designed, 654 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: it's fascinating stuff. The next one is used small and 655 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: slow solutions. Small and slow systems, it says, are easier 656 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: to maintain, makes sense, and they make better use of 657 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: local resources and they produce more sustainable outcomes. Next we 658 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: have use and value diversity. Diversity reduces system level of 659 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: vulnerability to threats and fully exploits its environments. And then 660 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,280 Speaker 1: we have h I had mentioned this earlier, use edges 661 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: and value. The marginal, the border between things is where 662 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: the most interesting events take place. Any amphibian can assure 663 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: you that's me editorializing. Is that like a liminal space. Ben, 664 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: It very much is. Matt is very much like a 665 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 1: liminal space, thank you. These these are often the systems 666 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: most valuable, diverse and productive elements. And again this like 667 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:55,480 Speaker 1: you could be an interior designer and you could hear 668 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: these things and think hundred percent yes, this is what 669 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: I aim for. Because we're talking high level uh structural 670 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: systemic analytical thought here. So I would love to hear 671 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: people fellow conspiracy realists from different disciplines to talk about 672 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: tell us how this applies to some of your work. 673 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: I think this also counts for engineering designing a car, Yeah, 674 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 1: you want to figure out all of these things? Um, 675 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: maybe let's let's end on the last one. There there's 676 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: one more, uh twelfth commandment. Well there's there's you know, 677 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: they call it design principle, but this is an important one. 678 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: Creatively use and respond to change. A positive impact on 679 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: inevitable change comes from careful observation followed by well timed intervention. Listen, twice, 680 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: speak once. That's pretty much what this means, right, So 681 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,880 Speaker 1: it's our measure twice cut once. Alright, So these are 682 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: these are things that we can all agree are good ideas. 683 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: Perhaps outside of the bounds of agriculture and sustainability as well. 684 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: These can work for any number of disciplines. Here's the 685 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: coolest part though. If you look around the world around 686 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: the planet since humans have been there, which isn't you know, 687 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 1: the longest time, you'll see that in almost every civilization 688 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: there are examples of techniques that have later been folded 689 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 1: into the concept of perma culture. It goes far past 690 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: the Three Sisters. It goes far past Carver and the 691 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: idea of proper rotation. We're talking rainwater harvesting, vermic composting, 692 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 1: using you know, the creepy Crawley's to do some of 693 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 1: the some of the breakdown for you. People have been 694 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: thinking about this concept independently across the span of time 695 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 1: and across the span of geography for again thousands of years. 696 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 1: This isn't a new idea. And with all that in mind, 697 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 1: perma culture doesn't seem too unreasonable. Right as the Georgia 698 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:02,320 Speaker 1: guidestones once said, leave room for nature. Uh, unfortunately twice, 699 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 1: right twice, they hit that one twice. Unfortunately, perma culture 700 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: does have its fair share of critics, and not all 701 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,399 Speaker 1: of these critics are um coming with reasons that might 702 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 1: be immediately apparent to you. We just want to make 703 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: sure you know. Not all of them are captain planet villains. 704 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: Not all of them are huge corporations saying mono agriculture 705 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,440 Speaker 1: and slash and burn is the only way to grow stuff. 706 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: We're gonna take a pause for word from our sponsors 707 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: and then return with critics and controversy of perman culture. 708 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: We're back, all right. So, to put it bluntly, just 709 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: to rip this band aid off real quick. A lot 710 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,919 Speaker 1: of the criticism comes from people in those specific scientific 711 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: fields that from which perma culture extracts a little bit, right, 712 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: And they'll they'll tell you that there is either a 713 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: lack of scientific basis for this and saying that, you know, 714 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: really get some perma culture experts up in arms, or 715 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: to put it bluntly, they'll say it's not very practical. 716 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: And we'll get to that last idea in the moment, 717 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: but maybe we talk about the scientific evidence or perceived 718 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: lack thereof first. Okay, So first, um, let's talk about 719 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 1: one of the dings on perma culture in the idea 720 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 1: that it lacks scientific basis, it lacks scientific evidence. Uh. 721 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: Mollison was by many accounts, not particularly interested in the 722 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 1: academic side of perma culture. Uh. You know that obviously 723 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: would require peer review and data and you know, things 724 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,719 Speaker 1: like science e. Stuff. That was not really his bag. 725 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: He was much more into the philosophy of it all. Um. 726 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: He did create the Perma Culture Design Course, uh, the 727 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,239 Speaker 1: PDC UM, but he wanted it to be super accessible. 728 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: He actually was against kind of the lucivity of academia. 729 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 1: He wanted it to be accessible to you know, average people, 730 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: because these are the people that that you know, he 731 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,759 Speaker 1: thought would be the most valuable in instituting this kind 732 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,840 Speaker 1: of stuff. It needed to be widely accessible. Um, you 733 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: didn't want to lock it up behind some sort of 734 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: like institutional paywall. But according to the Perma Culture Research Institute, 735 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,440 Speaker 1: this is a problem to some and possibly likely a 736 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: reason that it didn't catch on in a greater you know, 737 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,400 Speaker 1: um educational kind of framework, you know, in terms of 738 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: like being taught at schools, because it had this air 739 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,880 Speaker 1: of pseudo science about it, which doesn't fly in in 740 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: institutions of higher learning or even like medium learning. Well, yeah, 741 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,040 Speaker 1: and it is weird the way that the term perma 742 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,839 Speaker 1: culture means so many different things to different people if 743 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:54,840 Speaker 1: you look at online forums and stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, 744 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: it's that's one of the things I think I was 745 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: always winging about what always are here? Yes, what is 746 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,239 Speaker 1: what is permit culture? Is a rose as a rose 747 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: as a rose, right, uh whatever, So yeah, one of 748 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,839 Speaker 1: the one of the issues here. And I say this 749 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: is someone who is not a fan of gate keeping 750 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 1: knowledge in any way. And I have a profoundly deep 751 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:24,719 Speaker 1: conviction that the concept of an ivory tower often does 752 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: more harm than good, right when you think about the 753 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,600 Speaker 1: advancement and the spread of knowledge. But one thing academia 754 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 1: does really well is to impose standards, hopefully uniform standards, 755 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: so that everybody can grow together, right, and it's not. 756 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: It's not just a matter of opinion anymore. That's a 757 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:51,920 Speaker 1: beautiful thing about these sorts of institutional structures and perma 758 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,799 Speaker 1: culture acknowledges that this could be a problem because if 759 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,080 Speaker 1: it's if it doesn't have those same rigorous controls and 760 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:07,360 Speaker 1: that same sort of uniform methodology, then it can that 761 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:12,800 Speaker 1: that very diversity that is prized can become a stumbling block. 762 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 1: This lack of like this lack of buttoned up to 763 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 1: have a tie on officialdom about it is part of 764 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: the reason why people can glom onto an idea of 765 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,320 Speaker 1: permaculture and use that term to describe things that Mullison 766 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,560 Speaker 1: and Homegrin themselves probably wouldn't agree with. They probably wouldn't 767 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:39,279 Speaker 1: agree with this idea of some pseudo scientific stuff. But 768 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 1: because there's not, again, an academic discipline around this, there's 769 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,799 Speaker 1: not really a way to stop them. It would be 770 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:54,400 Speaker 1: like if astrophysics was just whatever you described astrophysics as 771 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,040 Speaker 1: outside of a couple of vague fortune cookie sentences, you 772 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 1: could also just sort of improve it and say, yeah, 773 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 1: astrophysics is the study of like movements in astronomy, but 774 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,080 Speaker 1: also reading palms. You know what I mean, Like, there's 775 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,879 Speaker 1: not really a way to stop it other than you 776 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,439 Speaker 1: say not really though, and then saying, well, that's what 777 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:21,360 Speaker 1: astrophysics means to me, and you're being a jerky Yeah, 778 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,320 Speaker 1: because it brings in Perman culture does have a tendency, 779 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,240 Speaker 1: and I think in our experience upon researching this, uh, 780 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,439 Speaker 1: it brings in a lot of belief So maybe one 781 00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:35,359 Speaker 1: group's belief one like movement within per Perman culture, sub 782 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 1: movements within Perman culture. The beliefs are shared amongst everybody, 783 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,399 Speaker 1: so then you can take a couple and then really 784 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,720 Speaker 1: run with them. Yeah, and this, you know, this happens 785 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,400 Speaker 1: in other places, right. To be fair, there are a 786 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,439 Speaker 1: lot of astrophysicists who disagree with each other, but their 787 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:57,719 Speaker 1: arguments are evidence based, right, and their arguments are subject 788 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:03,120 Speaker 1: to the check and ballot system of the scientific method, 789 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,400 Speaker 1: which doesn't always apply to some of these things that 790 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,400 Speaker 1: are Again, I don't know, there's like, like outside of 791 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: those principles, outside of the foundational books and outside of 792 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:18,040 Speaker 1: the three core ethics. There there's not a lot of 793 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:22,480 Speaker 1: canonical perma culture stuff other than that in the statements 794 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,080 Speaker 1: of big players in the field, So it could be 795 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:29,040 Speaker 1: a problem. It's true that the term perma culture is 796 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,719 Speaker 1: nebulous many times. Uh, and people chosen their own yes 797 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:39,120 Speaker 1: and definitions and takes on it. Um, what's another example, Oh, 798 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of like how Uh, it's kind of like 799 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:47,960 Speaker 1: how a sandwich might mean thousands of different things depending 800 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,319 Speaker 1: on where you are in the world, Right, and that's 801 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,239 Speaker 1: why not a hot dog definitely not technically it's a 802 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,360 Speaker 1: Technically that's a sandwich too, you know, if an open 803 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:02,279 Speaker 1: face sandwich is a sandwich? Right? Exactly this old thing? 804 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,480 Speaker 1: What are we exactly? What what are we judging the 805 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,759 Speaker 1: sandwich on? Is it just about containing a piece of 806 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: meat contained within bread to shape enter into it? Is 807 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 1: it all about portability? Like? Where do we I'm sorry, 808 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,440 Speaker 1: I got I get really worked up about them. No, no, 809 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:20,640 Speaker 1: I remember this then? Yeah, technically, But I think another 810 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: more interesting thing that whish people will talk about more 811 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,759 Speaker 1: is what is a salad? Technically a salad is just 812 00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:31,480 Speaker 1: a mixture of disparate elements, so harring salad. You know, 813 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:36,440 Speaker 1: I don't know anyway. That's permaculture is having the same problem, 814 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: is what I'm saying. There's no like, there's no PhD 815 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 1: in sandwich there's no PhD in case of DA, But 816 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: if you took one of these courses or like Doug 817 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,439 Speaker 1: a little deeper, I mean, there are like specific procedures 818 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,399 Speaker 1: and recommendations and ways of going about this stuff as 819 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 1: per there philosophy. I mean, you can look at it 820 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,399 Speaker 1: on the purely philosophical level, and I think it's really 821 00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,799 Speaker 1: neat and useful in that respect. But if you dig deeper, 822 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,799 Speaker 1: I'm asking, like, if you took the class, are they 823 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,000 Speaker 1: going to teach you how to how to do it? 824 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:08,359 Speaker 1: Like how to actually do things procedurally. That's what he 825 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:13,520 Speaker 1: took several classes before he began his own company. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 826 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,880 Speaker 1: And again because context is key, Like any perma culture 827 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,799 Speaker 1: practitioner will tell you that the solutions you would need 828 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,279 Speaker 1: for sustainable development of a tropical ecosystem are going to 829 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 1: be different from the solutions you might need for a 830 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:36,239 Speaker 1: more savannah or prairie land ecosystem. So that's something they're 831 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:40,439 Speaker 1: very cognizant about. There's not necessarily a silver bullet, right 832 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,000 Speaker 1: and saying that there's a silver bullet saying that there's 833 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,839 Speaker 1: one set of plants or one set of practices you 834 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,920 Speaker 1: can use for any biome or any ecosystem. Excuse me. 835 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,680 Speaker 1: That is misleading and it's incorrect, and I think every 836 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,759 Speaker 1: perma culturist from Mollison on down is well aware of 837 00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,200 Speaker 1: that fact and very open about it. As a matter 838 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:06,799 Speaker 1: of fact, Mollison's main criticism of conventional agriculture was that 839 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:11,719 Speaker 1: it wasn't sustainable because nothing about it was permanent. He 840 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 1: said that we need to find things that fit the 841 00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:18,400 Speaker 1: places right. This is about observation. It's not about creating 842 00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,680 Speaker 1: a new space. It's about helping improve the existing space. 843 00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,239 Speaker 1: It was again working way before humans got here. So 844 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,000 Speaker 1: he is trying to create feedback loops. I know I've 845 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,440 Speaker 1: been mentioning feedback loops a lot. Often. Feedback loops are 846 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,880 Speaker 1: not necessarily bad. They can be good, especially in these 847 00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:42,200 Speaker 1: kind of closed systems. So let's table that. Like like, 848 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:47,040 Speaker 1: we've acknowledged that there are concerns about the rigor or 849 00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:51,719 Speaker 1: the approach to becoming canonical parts of the perma culture philosophy. 850 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,520 Speaker 1: But past that to the second thing we mentioned, some 851 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,200 Speaker 1: scientists will tell you the entire aim of perman culture 852 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,520 Speaker 1: is missing the mark. I want to introduces to a 853 00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,640 Speaker 1: plant biologist named Ken Thompson Kenson, author as well, had 854 00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,960 Speaker 1: this interview with the British outfit, the Telegraph, and he's 855 00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,160 Speaker 1: very British about this. Uh. He had a quote that 856 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,560 Speaker 1: stood out to me where he said, the trouble is 857 00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:21,040 Speaker 1: that the average modern gardener has little use for basketry materials, fodder, 858 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,920 Speaker 1: game or sap products, right, because you're not wasting anything 859 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:29,080 Speaker 1: in perma cultures. So you're growing, you're growing something. You're thinking, 860 00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,840 Speaker 1: how can I use this? Can I use this to 861 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:36,400 Speaker 1: weave baskets later? Can I use this to make sap 862 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,080 Speaker 1: that I can somehow refine? And his thing is some gardeners, 863 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:45,399 Speaker 1: you know, they just they want tomatoes right there. They 864 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,080 Speaker 1: just they want they want lilies. They don't need to 865 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,920 Speaker 1: in their minds, they don't need to use everything. The 866 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,040 Speaker 1: one good thing is that you could just turn anything 867 00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:59,040 Speaker 1: you don't use back into soil if you have enough time, 868 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: if you're gonna be that garden for long enough time. Right. Yeah, yeah, 869 00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 1: that's a really good point. And and time horizon is 870 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,239 Speaker 1: a huge part of perma culture to right. So that's 871 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 1: what sustainability means. It's long term. So folks like Thompson 872 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,680 Speaker 1: and people who agree with him say, okay, perman culture 873 00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:21,680 Speaker 1: is well intentioned, but overall it's kind of naive or 874 00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,080 Speaker 1: maybe overly ambitious, or it might not be effective for 875 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,720 Speaker 1: the needs of a lot of people. In practical terms, 876 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,640 Speaker 1: he said that the idea of a forest garden fails 877 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,720 Speaker 1: in terms of scale and usefulness, as you might imagine. 878 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,080 Speaker 1: Perman culture enthusiasts disagree with him, but if you read 879 00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:46,439 Speaker 1: his comparison, he's objecting specifically to the proposition that, when 880 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:50,359 Speaker 1: managed correctly, a forest garden could feed four to five 881 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,640 Speaker 1: people per acre, which is again a lot of bang 882 00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,359 Speaker 1: for your buck in terms of um car in terms 883 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,920 Speaker 1: of caloric output, right, calories people need to eat to 884 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 1: stay alive. Do you know the chef. I think his 885 00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:06,440 Speaker 1: name is Magnus Favcan. I don't know if I'm pronouncing 886 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,239 Speaker 1: his last name right, but I think he's Icelandic or 887 00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,440 Speaker 1: some Nordic region. He's all about foraging. He's all about 888 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,280 Speaker 1: like all of his dishes are created using like foraged 889 00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, vegetables and things. And he has like a 890 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,960 Speaker 1: root seller and uses all these very like old kind 891 00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,080 Speaker 1: of techniques that are very much in line with what 892 00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,000 Speaker 1: we're talking about here. Um. But it's like, you know, 893 00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,960 Speaker 1: it's a philosophy, but it's also like it it adds 894 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,160 Speaker 1: a certain creative spark in a certain connection to the 895 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,880 Speaker 1: land and to the region, you know, with his cuisine 896 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:37,800 Speaker 1: and he's like he was on one of those episodes 897 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,280 Speaker 1: of The Chef's Table on Netflix. I believe it's magnus 898 00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,080 Speaker 1: but really interesting the way that that can be used 899 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:45,800 Speaker 1: almost like as as a part of an art form 900 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,360 Speaker 1: and also like a communication kind of like with your 901 00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,200 Speaker 1: environment and then to your your diners. You know, it's 902 00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,040 Speaker 1: it's I think it's neat. Well, I mean, it's a 903 00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,400 Speaker 1: very cool thing, and it's awesome for you know, a 904 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,240 Speaker 1: restaurant or even a couple of restaurants that one person owns, 905 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,040 Speaker 1: but it's probably not for feeding the entire population of 906 00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,920 Speaker 1: the country that that chef is in, right if you. 907 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you couldn't just forge for all the food 908 00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,960 Speaker 1: to feed everybody in Iceland. No, it has to be scalable. Yeah, 909 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,520 Speaker 1: that's one of the issues, is the idea of scale. 910 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,320 Speaker 1: You know, feeding three hundred and twenty three million people 911 00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:22,600 Speaker 1: is different from feeding a community of thirty. But anyway, 912 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:27,200 Speaker 1: when when Thompson's walking through this concept, he says, okay, well, 913 00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,560 Speaker 1: maybe you could try to do something like that, but 914 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,320 Speaker 1: will it be It'll be edible, but will it be palatable? 915 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,360 Speaker 1: Meaning will you enjoy it? Will you be happy living 916 00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,280 Speaker 1: off these uh, these tubers, these trees, these boiled plants 917 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,560 Speaker 1: for the rest of your life? And then he goes 918 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:49,840 Speaker 1: back and forth on some examples, including one chuckle worthy 919 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:55,400 Speaker 1: response to UH to an idea about density of orangutans. 920 00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,080 Speaker 1: And I don't want to ruin it for folks, but 921 00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,840 Speaker 1: check out the Telegraph thing. Again. It's very British in 922 00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,120 Speaker 1: the way he talks about it, not necessarily mean, but 923 00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:08,720 Speaker 1: but snarky. And Thompson is basically saying that what we're 924 00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,480 Speaker 1: talking about is editing nature the way you would edit 925 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:17,800 Speaker 1: a manuscript or a video, and that farmers and gardeners 926 00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:22,240 Speaker 1: themselves are already editing nature just the way permaculturists do 927 00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:27,040 Speaker 1: with a slightly different editorial eye. And he says the 928 00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,160 Speaker 1: world right now at this point it just might not 929 00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:36,000 Speaker 1: be easily or reasonably fed via gardens. Before we move on, 930 00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 1: I'd also like to note, for anybody's really mad about 931 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,520 Speaker 1: Thompson from that introduction, he wrote a book with a 932 00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,520 Speaker 1: hilarious title that I plan to read. It's called do 933 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:54,240 Speaker 1: We Need pandas The Uncomfortable Truth about bio diversity? Okay, 934 00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,640 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, what do they? What do they? What 935 00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,200 Speaker 1: do they ever do for us? I was going around 936 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,440 Speaker 1: karate chopping everybody, you know, like I'm just joking. That's 937 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:05,920 Speaker 1: kung Fu Panda. I've never have you seen the Kung 938 01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Fu Panda films that I haven't seen them? Um, you 939 01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:10,840 Speaker 1: know what this does reminder the philosophical side of this 940 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,000 Speaker 1: is is the panda, uh you know bamboo? Is it 941 01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,040 Speaker 1: grows wild, like it goes out of out of control 942 01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:18,880 Speaker 1: if you don't, you know, cut it back or take 943 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,600 Speaker 1: care of it. You gotta wonder is the panda in 944 01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:25,240 Speaker 1: some small way helping keeping the world from being overwhelmed 945 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,440 Speaker 1: by bamboo? I don't know. UM, A lot of the 946 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:32,200 Speaker 1: kind of philosophical or even spiritual side of this permaculture stuff, 947 01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,320 Speaker 1: UM reminds me a lot the way it can be 948 01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,040 Speaker 1: like adapted like to like lifestyle and just kind of 949 01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,480 Speaker 1: like you know, bigger picture thinking. There's a film called 950 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,400 Speaker 1: Being There where Um Peter Sellers plays this character who's 951 01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,880 Speaker 1: a gardener. His name's Chauncey, and he's basically like he's 952 01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,680 Speaker 1: lived in this old man's house as long as he 953 01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,440 Speaker 1: can remember. And the old man dies, and uh, Chauncey 954 01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:54,920 Speaker 1: just kind of like goes off on his own. And 955 01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,400 Speaker 1: he's sort of this like simple kind of character. He 956 01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:02,240 Speaker 1: does really understand the outside world, but he speaks everything 957 01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,080 Speaker 1: he talks about he relates back to gardening, and in 958 01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,720 Speaker 1: the film, you know, he's making all these everyone thinks 959 01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,680 Speaker 1: he's speaking in metaphors um and he like ends up, 960 01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:14,240 Speaker 1: you know, stumbling into these like elite political circles. You'll 961 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,520 Speaker 1: say things like as long as the roots are not severed, 962 01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:21,440 Speaker 1: all is well, and all will be well in the garden, 963 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,320 Speaker 1: and the presidents like in the garden, Yes, in the garden, 964 01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,280 Speaker 1: growth has its seasons. First comes spring and summer, but 965 01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:31,960 Speaker 1: then we have fall and winter, and then we get 966 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,959 Speaker 1: spring and summer again. And then the President's like, oh, 967 01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,480 Speaker 1: it's genius, so insightful, you know, he's but he's really 968 01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,080 Speaker 1: just talking about like, you know, actual gardening. But it 969 01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:46,920 Speaker 1: is a system that is incredibly complex and fascinating and 970 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,400 Speaker 1: can be applied to the way we think about just 971 01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:53,800 Speaker 1: life on Earth. So you could argue that some of 972 01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:58,160 Speaker 1: the criticism of Perma cultures, more fringe e associated beliefs 973 01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:02,600 Speaker 1: comes from this democratization of knowledge. That's that's something that 974 01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:06,280 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier. One of the issues here is that 975 01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,280 Speaker 1: critics will say perman culture has become more of a 976 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,480 Speaker 1: religion or more of a cult than a collection of 977 01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,760 Speaker 1: scientific beliefs. And they'll say, hey, this home grewn guy, 978 01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,560 Speaker 1: this molesten guy. They're starting to be treated more like 979 01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:23,840 Speaker 1: profits rather than innovators or leaders in the space, as 980 01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,520 Speaker 1: Corporate America likes to say. But that's not a problem 981 01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,800 Speaker 1: with perman culture, I think not really not what its 982 01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:36,040 Speaker 1: founders articulated. It's a social issue. Perman culture champions diversity. 983 01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,880 Speaker 1: It's a design principle, and this means that includes a 984 01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:43,440 Speaker 1: diversity of ideas. It likes edges, so it welcomes some 985 01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,000 Speaker 1: edgy ideas, and when people add their own concepts to 986 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,560 Speaker 1: those pre existing thoughts, it means that it's often people, 987 01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:55,280 Speaker 1: not process that creates the problem. And guys, here, I 988 01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:59,560 Speaker 1: just think we have to point out. In an earlier episode, uh, 989 01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:03,480 Speaker 1: we looked at some of the kind of nasty origins 990 01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:07,440 Speaker 1: of some very good environmental movements like the Sierra Club 991 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,360 Speaker 1: had some racism tied up into it when it was 992 01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,800 Speaker 1: talking about conserving the natural environment. It was talking about 993 01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,200 Speaker 1: or at least its founding fathers were talking about conserving 994 01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:26,120 Speaker 1: it for a specific type of person rather than everybody eugenics. Yeah. 995 01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:30,400 Speaker 1: And then more recently old Dave sorry we don't know him, 996 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:34,400 Speaker 1: be right. Then David Holingern was in the news and 997 01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:38,560 Speaker 1: there was a public statement that he put out, uh 998 01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:44,280 Speaker 1: about why he purposely chose to not get a COVID vaccine. Yeah, 999 01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:48,240 Speaker 1: he's uh, he he was. If you read his statement, 1000 01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:52,360 Speaker 1: which is on his blog, you'll see that, uh, he 1001 01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:55,680 Speaker 1: was persuaded by something called the f l C c 1002 01:03:55,960 --> 01:04:00,320 Speaker 1: C Alliance and that's an outfit that was promoting iver 1003 01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:05,160 Speaker 1: Mecton instead of the proven COVID vaccines. And he's really 1004 01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:07,880 Speaker 1: clear that this is his personal opinion. I think he 1005 01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,800 Speaker 1: writes very fairly about it. Honestly, he just says it's 1006 01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,840 Speaker 1: not for me. But the problem is, he is again 1007 01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:17,760 Speaker 1: a leader in the space. He is a luminary in 1008 01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:21,080 Speaker 1: the world of perma culture. So, like an author named 1009 01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,240 Speaker 1: Terry Leehy points out in the politics of perma culture, 1010 01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:29,720 Speaker 1: he has a transference phenomenon occurring around him. He has 1011 01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:34,240 Speaker 1: a lot of unquestioned credibility that goes far past his 1012 01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:38,800 Speaker 1: stated areas of expertise. It's sort of like when a 1013 01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,840 Speaker 1: we talked about this in our upcoming book. It's like 1014 01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,080 Speaker 1: when a celebrity who's been in films that you like 1015 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,440 Speaker 1: says something about I don't want to keep picking on astrophysics. 1016 01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:53,920 Speaker 1: They say something about macro economics, and they have not 1017 01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:58,480 Speaker 1: studied macro economics, but because you liked them in a film, 1018 01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,880 Speaker 1: you are more likely to take their opinion as fact. 1019 01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:06,040 Speaker 1: This is a trap of charisma, and it happens pretty 1020 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,360 Speaker 1: often across the world. And when we say this, we're 1021 01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:12,520 Speaker 1: not saying, of course, that anybody is dumb at all. 1022 01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:16,440 Speaker 1: It's just your brain wants you to agree with entities 1023 01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,720 Speaker 1: that you have agreed with in the past. That's what's happening. 1024 01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,439 Speaker 1: So his words, just because they come from him, can 1025 01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:27,280 Speaker 1: be taken his statements of fact, even when he is 1026 01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,280 Speaker 1: very again, the guy is very careful to say this 1027 01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:33,120 Speaker 1: is my opinion, this is why I don't want to 1028 01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,200 Speaker 1: this is why I am not getting vaccinated. He doesn't 1029 01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:39,960 Speaker 1: vilify people who choose to get vaccinated, or is the 1030 01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:43,800 Speaker 1: British say get the jab But his critics are rightly 1031 01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,520 Speaker 1: concerned that his followers might endanger their lives or others 1032 01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:51,560 Speaker 1: by taking his word as gospel, regardless of how carefully 1033 01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,800 Speaker 1: he caveats it. I mean, it makes sense. Think about it. 1034 01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,680 Speaker 1: If you truly believe you are hearing from a guy 1035 01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,560 Speaker 1: who came up with a way to save agri culture 1036 01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:03,920 Speaker 1: as we know it, then you're probably, for better or worse, 1037 01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,520 Speaker 1: going to treat his other statements and opinions with the 1038 01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:13,600 Speaker 1: same high regard. Uh. And then again, the people problem 1039 01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:18,240 Speaker 1: goes beyond just just this idea of whether a public 1040 01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:22,640 Speaker 1: figure like what degree of responsibility they have to the 1041 01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:26,120 Speaker 1: public right. It goes beyond this. The third principal tenant 1042 01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:30,680 Speaker 1: of perman culture setting limits to population and consumption. This 1043 01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,640 Speaker 1: is by far the most controversial that you just yelled 1044 01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:39,240 Speaker 1: it out earlier. Eugenics. This conjures up the specter of 1045 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:46,320 Speaker 1: oover population and uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't. 1046 01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:49,320 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody who has I think at least 1047 01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:54,600 Speaker 1: the vast majority of perma culture practitioners would say, no, 1048 01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:59,920 Speaker 1: I am not a eugenicist. I think, yeah, it's weird. 1049 01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,160 Speaker 1: It's weird to or rationally go through it because it 1050 01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,920 Speaker 1: certainly feels as though there are too many humans on 1051 01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,880 Speaker 1: the planet and way too many cars on eight five 1052 01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,040 Speaker 1: that's a highway here in Atlanta, Um. But of course 1053 01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:15,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean we need to you know, wipe out 1054 01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:17,720 Speaker 1: a bunch of humans so we can make enough food 1055 01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,120 Speaker 1: for the smaller amount that now exists. There's some also 1056 01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:25,720 Speaker 1: really some interesting observations from the more right leaning side 1057 01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:31,080 Speaker 1: of politics, who really do think that that permac culture 1058 01:07:31,240 --> 01:07:34,440 Speaker 1: is what we kind of mentioned before, it's too close 1059 01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:42,160 Speaker 1: to something that would be considered not socialism necessarily, but uh, communism. 1060 01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:44,720 Speaker 1: I mean it we already kind of joked about in 1061 01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,920 Speaker 1: the episode that it has shades of communism. It sounds 1062 01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,880 Speaker 1: like communism, right, yeah, we will they all like, they'll 1063 01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:54,960 Speaker 1: distribute the surplus back to the people, you know. I mean, 1064 01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's a good idea, I would argue, but 1065 01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:01,160 Speaker 1: it's just not the capitalist way, so it's easy to 1066 01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,800 Speaker 1: throw the C word around at it, you know. Well, yeah, 1067 01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:07,400 Speaker 1: and if there was government control over the you know, 1068 01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:10,680 Speaker 1: maybe a mass permaculture system, that it would be socialism, right, 1069 01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,480 Speaker 1: a government deciding who gets that surplus, right yeah. But 1070 01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:19,400 Speaker 1: also if we're if we're engaging in structural thought. If 1071 01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:23,400 Speaker 1: we're analyzing systems here, then we can see very similar 1072 01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:26,760 Speaker 1: things happening in a community of two dozen people as 1073 01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,679 Speaker 1: well as a community of a million people. So there 1074 01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:35,839 Speaker 1: would still possibly be a threshold at which a government 1075 01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:40,640 Speaker 1: or a hierarchy. Hierarchy forms, meaning that there could be 1076 01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:45,000 Speaker 1: a group of of four people in a community of fifty, 1077 01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:48,200 Speaker 1: and those folks, whether they're called like the council or 1078 01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:52,000 Speaker 1: the elders or you know, the big elbows or whatever 1079 01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:55,240 Speaker 1: silly name people come up with, in those situations, they 1080 01:08:55,320 --> 01:09:00,640 Speaker 1: could still institute the same inequalities you see in larger systems. 1081 01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:05,360 Speaker 1: I would propose that for many people who say, oh, 1082 01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:08,360 Speaker 1: this is socialism, or for many people who say, oh 1083 01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:13,120 Speaker 1: this is too ideally, I would propose that the the 1084 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:17,160 Speaker 1: problem really is not the application of perma culture techniques. 1085 01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:21,960 Speaker 1: The problem is the human piece of the equation. The 1086 01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:26,800 Speaker 1: human brains hardwired limits on what it is able to 1087 01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:31,479 Speaker 1: conceive of as society. But that's maybe a story for 1088 01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,760 Speaker 1: another day. We do want to air some responses to 1089 01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:38,160 Speaker 1: the idea of socialism from Perma culture. Going back to 1090 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:42,920 Speaker 1: the perman Culture Institute itself, they say, quote, perma culture 1091 01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:47,200 Speaker 1: isn't socialism, practitioners aren't required to live on a commune, 1092 01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:51,320 Speaker 1: work for free, or give away their excess. Perma culture 1093 01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:55,240 Speaker 1: doesn't preclude you from earning a decent living. In fact, 1094 01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:59,480 Speaker 1: perma culture can bring practitioners all kinds of benefits, including 1095 01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,080 Speaker 1: financee ntil wins. So it starts to feel a little 1096 01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,240 Speaker 1: bit like a marketing pamphlet towards the end. But they 1097 01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:08,840 Speaker 1: are dispelling I think some some myths. This is not 1098 01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:13,880 Speaker 1: some Orwellian new world order where you exist as a 1099 01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:17,639 Speaker 1: peasant under the boot of the of the ruling class, 1100 01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:19,800 Speaker 1: at least not the way they're thinking of it. I'd 1101 01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:22,240 Speaker 1: go back to Durs one more time. The guy started 1102 01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:26,080 Speaker 1: a company on his own in a capitalist system to 1103 01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:30,719 Speaker 1: you know, work setting up perman culture projects for other people. 1104 01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:35,640 Speaker 1: So I mean, there's nothing communists or socialists about that, No, 1105 01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:39,120 Speaker 1: not at all. And then there's this This is where 1106 01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:41,719 Speaker 1: we get to the end, folks, and where we pass 1107 01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:46,519 Speaker 1: the plow to you. So perma culture is fascinating. Yes, 1108 01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:52,840 Speaker 1: it can have some really great benefits in specific situations, right, 1109 01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:57,160 Speaker 1: because it depends upon context and diversity. However, it is 1110 01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:01,640 Speaker 1: not some sort of silver bullet, some sort of panacea 1111 01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:06,120 Speaker 1: to the problem of environmental degradation. Perma culture is heroic, 1112 01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:10,680 Speaker 1: but it is not messionic. And would the widespread application 1113 01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:15,360 Speaker 1: of these practices help more than it would harm. Yeah, yeah, 1114 01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,599 Speaker 1: probably most likely. But it's not going to fix things 1115 01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:21,360 Speaker 1: like the Great Pacific garbage Patch. It's not going to 1116 01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:26,600 Speaker 1: reverse global warming anytime soon, you know, because this is 1117 01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:29,920 Speaker 1: not a ding on perman culture. This is just a 1118 01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:35,040 Speaker 1: matter of how far down the slope the planets systems 1119 01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:38,200 Speaker 1: have already gone. Instead, I think it's best for us 1120 01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:42,680 Speaker 1: to regard perma culture itself the way mullis in regards 1121 01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:48,080 Speaker 1: natural systems. Let's observe, Let's consider these practices and these 1122 01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:51,600 Speaker 1: philosophies as part of a greater whole. To think in 1123 01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:55,519 Speaker 1: terms of analogy, perma culture is like one tool in 1124 01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:59,639 Speaker 1: a bigger box of tools, including things like nonprofit actions, 1125 01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:05,920 Speaker 1: god or man initiatives, activism, personal efforts to reduce, reuse, recycle, etcetera. 1126 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,519 Speaker 1: So maybe the best way to end it is like this. 1127 01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:13,679 Speaker 1: In the right situation, permaculture can be a fantastic tool, 1128 01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:17,920 Speaker 1: like the best hammer you could ever buy, the perfect screwdriver, 1129 01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:21,600 Speaker 1: what have you. But it is crucial for everyone to 1130 01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,720 Speaker 1: remember that when you want to build a house, you 1131 01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:28,200 Speaker 1: need more than just a hammer. You need more than 1132 01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:31,800 Speaker 1: just a screwdriver. You cannot build a house with a 1133 01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:35,479 Speaker 1: hammer alone. And in this case, that house happens to 1134 01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:39,280 Speaker 1: be Planet Earth, the only place humans live so far 1135 01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,920 Speaker 1: as we record this episode, I hope that age is poorly. 1136 01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:45,000 Speaker 1: I hope someone is listening to this on the Moon 1137 01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:49,559 Speaker 1: or on Mars. Yeah. I feel like you could build 1138 01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:53,040 Speaker 1: some kind of log cabin, maybe not a perfect one, 1139 01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:55,719 Speaker 1: but a log cabin if you just had a single ax, 1140 01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:58,600 Speaker 1: I think you could do it. Yeah, Abraham Lincoln did it. 1141 01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:04,040 Speaker 1: Everybody knows that Lincoln logs. Well, you would need to 1142 01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:07,679 Speaker 1: because you would you would need to fill the gaps 1143 01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:11,400 Speaker 1: in between the logs right with a kind of sap um. 1144 01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:15,840 Speaker 1: It really goes down to what, doesn't it. Yeah? Yeah, 1145 01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:18,920 Speaker 1: because you need an actually mud. Well, let us know. 1146 01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:25,160 Speaker 1: Send us photographs, yeah, cent us photographs of the house 1147 01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:28,439 Speaker 1: you're built with one tool, whatever it is, one tool 1148 01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:32,679 Speaker 1: other than money, okay, smart Alex in the crowd, other 1149 01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:36,600 Speaker 1: than cash, a tool that you use your hands or 1150 01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:40,040 Speaker 1: your tentacles with, and just that tool, you built a domicile. 1151 01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:42,280 Speaker 1: Let us know. We can't wait to hear from you. 1152 01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,480 Speaker 1: Thanks to DIRS, Thanks to all our fellow conspiracy realists 1153 01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:50,720 Speaker 1: working in urban agriculture, working out on farms, all our 1154 01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:55,360 Speaker 1: folks who are currently studying the fields of biology, the 1155 01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:58,920 Speaker 1: fields of agriculture. The world needs you, uh, and you're 1156 01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:01,800 Speaker 1: doing an awesome thing. We can't wait to hear your 1157 01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,080 Speaker 1: thoughts on permaculture. We try to be easy to find online, 1158 01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:07,720 Speaker 1: boy do we ever? You can find us all over 1159 01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:12,120 Speaker 1: the internet. We are on Facebook, Uh, we are on Twitter, 1160 01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:15,400 Speaker 1: and we're on YouTube under the handle conspiracy Stuff. On Instagram, 1161 01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:18,760 Speaker 1: you can find us at Conspiracy Stuff Show. Um. But 1162 01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:20,960 Speaker 1: there's more. Yes, if you want to call us, our 1163 01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:24,640 Speaker 1: number is one eight three three std w y t K. 1164 01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:27,519 Speaker 1: When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname. We 1165 01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:29,559 Speaker 1: don't care what it is. We're excited to hear how 1166 01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:31,720 Speaker 1: creative you're going to be with your name. Let us 1167 01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:33,840 Speaker 1: know if we have permission to use your name and 1168 01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:36,719 Speaker 1: voice on the air. Then, Hey, you've got three minutes 1169 01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:39,240 Speaker 1: or whatever remains of three minutes after you've done all 1170 01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:41,720 Speaker 1: that stuff, let us know what you think about this 1171 01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:44,639 Speaker 1: and any other episode. Give us topics for the future. 1172 01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:48,599 Speaker 1: Just tell us a story, anything, tell us how you 1173 01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,799 Speaker 1: pre ordered our book or ordered our book, or however 1174 01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:54,320 Speaker 1: you got it. We'd love to hear that. And hey, 1175 01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:58,680 Speaker 1: the reviews are in. Kirkus review called it a delightful 1176 01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:03,720 Speaker 1: read if you're into pizza, the Illuminati, and uh some 1177 01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:06,720 Speaker 1: other thing. But Kirkus Review, man, I remember that from 1178 01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:08,360 Speaker 1: the cover of all the books I read when I 1179 01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:11,320 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, that's a big deal. Sorry not to 1180 01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:14,400 Speaker 1: toot our own horn, mainly tuting Ben's horn. Yeah, we uh, 1181 01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:17,000 Speaker 1: we are excited. Wherever we are in the world. We 1182 01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:18,800 Speaker 1: want to bring you the stuff they don't want you 1183 01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:23,880 Speaker 1: to know, whether in book form, whether in uh podcast form, 1184 01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:29,759 Speaker 1: YouTube form, or in live formats. You'll hear more about 1185 01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:31,680 Speaker 1: that soon while all three of us are going to 1186 01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,320 Speaker 1: be hitting the road. We can't wait to tell you 1187 01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:37,000 Speaker 1: about it. You can follow our socials that know just 1188 01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:43,080 Speaker 1: outlined for more. And if you don't sip the social meads, 1189 01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:46,439 Speaker 1: if you like to stay a little bit off the grid, uh, 1190 01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:49,880 Speaker 1: if you don't like to use the phone, uh, then 1191 01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:53,440 Speaker 1: we of all people get it. Uh. Three minutes sometimes 1192 01:15:53,479 --> 01:15:56,000 Speaker 1: just isn't enough. So instead of feeling like you need 1193 01:15:56,040 --> 01:15:59,920 Speaker 1: to call repeated times, send us those ancillary links take 1194 01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:01,920 Speaker 1: gets to the edge of the rabbit hole, we'll see 1195 01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:06,040 Speaker 1: how far it goes. We cannot wait. We read every 1196 01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:09,759 Speaker 1: single email we get. That's a true story. I've written 1197 01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:12,240 Speaker 1: to some Some of you us listening now are like, no, 1198 01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:14,519 Speaker 1: you don't. And when you said that, I wrote back 1199 01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:17,400 Speaker 1: to you. So watch out, folks, if you dare send 1200 01:16:17,479 --> 01:16:20,320 Speaker 1: us an email where we are conspiracy at iHeart radio 1201 01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:41,200 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff they don't want you to know is 1202 01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:44,280 Speaker 1: a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from 1203 01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:47,360 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 1204 01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:49,320 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.