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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June grosseo from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Officials in Fulton County, Georgia are vowing to fight a

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Speaker 2: recent FBI raid where agents seized more than seven hundred

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Speaker 2: boxes of ballots, voter rolls, ballot images, and other election

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Speaker 2: records from the twenty twenty presidential election. Jeff Duncan, who

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Speaker 2: was the Republican Lieutenant governor at that time, says there

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Speaker 2: were multiple audits, handcounts, and verifications of the election results.

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Speaker 3: We've spent nearly six years debunking every conspiracy theory. There's

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Speaker 3: been not even a single page of proof that there's

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Speaker 3: been any sort of fraud involved. This is another somewhat

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Speaker 3: predictable act by Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: The Justice Department sees the records as part of a

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Speaker 2: criminal investigation using a grand jury subpoena. The Trump administration

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Speaker 2: has been stepping up efforts to obtain sensitive voter information

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Speaker 2: from states, not only names and addresses, but voter birth dates,

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Speaker 2: drivers license information, and partial social security numbers. The Justice

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Speaker 2: Department has sued twenty four states in Washington, d c.

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Speaker 2: For refusing to turn over voter data, and federal judges

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Speaker 2: have started to weigh in delivering early losses to the

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Speaker 2: Trump administration in lawsuits against state leaders in California and Oregon.

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Speaker 2: My guest is Rebecca Green, a professor at William and

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Speaker 2: Mary Law School and director of their election law program. Rebecca,

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Speaker 2: will you remind us how Fulton County, Georgia was sort

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Speaker 2: of like ground zero for President Trump's unsubstantiated claims of

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Speaker 2: voter fraud in the twenty twenty presidential election.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so there were several jurisdictions around the country where

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Speaker 4: the president then candidate Trump sort of went hard on

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Speaker 4: the theory that there had been massive fraud. So he

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Speaker 4: was able to convince lots of people that those elections

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Speaker 4: needed to be investigated carefully. And you know, that's sort

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Speaker 4: of why those jurisdictions came under scrutiny. And so Fulton

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Speaker 4: County was one of those jurisdictions. And there has really

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Speaker 4: been sort of a relentless push, you know, both after

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Speaker 4: the twenty twenty election and then continuing to today as

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Speaker 4: we see. But you know, your listeners will remember the

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Speaker 4: infamous call that President Trump made to the director of

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Speaker 4: Georgia's elections Brad Rathensberger, where he asked him to find

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Speaker 4: eleven thousand votes for him. So this has been ongoing,

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Speaker 4: this focus on Fulton County particularly.

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Speaker 2: I mean there was a machine count and two recounts

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Speaker 2: that confirm the results in Fulton County, Georgia, So the

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Speaker 2: due diligence was done.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the focus on Fulton County and other jurisdictions

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Speaker 4: around the country, especially in places like Arizona, resulted in

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Speaker 4: sort of very careful review of all ballots, of voting machine,

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Speaker 4: sort of every aspect of the election. They've been under

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Speaker 4: intense scrutiny for years because of these pressures, and there's

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Speaker 4: been no finding of any issues, particularly no finding of

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Speaker 4: widespread fraud that would have changed the result.

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Speaker 2: So the FBI seesed hundreds of boxes of ballots, voter rolls,

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Speaker 2: ballot images, and other election records, and the search warrant

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Speaker 2: said it was about potential voter intimidation and election interference.

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Speaker 2: I mean, have you ever heard of another case where

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Speaker 2: they seize that kind of evidence, they sees the actual

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Speaker 2: voter rolls.

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Speaker 4: Boy, you know, I can't think of an example. That

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Speaker 4: doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. There certainly has been,

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Speaker 4: you know, a lot of criminal investigation. You know of

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Speaker 4: our elections over the course of US history, but I

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Speaker 4: can't think of an instance where the federal government has

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Speaker 4: seized voting equipment. I could be wrong about that, but

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Speaker 4: nothing springs to mind.

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Speaker 2: The election interference claims, as you describe vibe, they have

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Speaker 2: already been litigated over and over again.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's correct, So I'm assuming. I mean, I'm not

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Speaker 4: a criminal law expert, but I'm assuming that in order

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Speaker 4: to get a warrant to seize this equipment, there must

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Speaker 4: have been evidence that convinced a judge that there was

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Speaker 4: a crime that hasn't been sort of settled in the

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Speaker 4: courts already.

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Speaker 2: I believe there'd have to be some kind of finding

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Speaker 2: of probable cause at least. What's the danger with the

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Speaker 2: federal government seizing these voter rolls?

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Speaker 4: Well, in the instance of the federal government obtaining this material,

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Speaker 4: you know, there are layers of concern that people have voiced,

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Speaker 4: so there is lots of concern about voter privacy. For example,

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Speaker 4: there's concern about this being sort of a precursor to

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Speaker 4: future efforts to take equipment out of state custody, equipment

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Speaker 4: and ballots out of state custody. You know, in future elections.

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Speaker 4: So there's all kinds of concerns that have been raised

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Speaker 4: about this activity as being sort of more than a

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Speaker 4: run of the mill sort of criminal investigation.

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Speaker 2: So Tulsey Gabbert, director of National Intelligence, was there and

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Speaker 2: she's been in charge of investigation into election integrity, so

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Speaker 2: called election integrity, and at one point Trump asked her

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Speaker 2: in a cabinet meeting whether she had found evidence in

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Speaker 2: burn bags of how corrupt the twenty twenty election was,

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Speaker 2: and she said, we're finding documents literally tucked away in

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Speaker 2: the back of safes and random offices in these bags

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Speaker 2: and in other areas. It sounds sort of like, you know,

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Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani's talking about, you know, votes being found in suitcases.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's been lots of rhetoric, but so far in

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Speaker 4: courts of law, where you know, judges have required plaintiffs

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Speaker 4: to bring that evidence forward, there hasn't been any credible

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Speaker 4: evidence so far, you know, brought into courts. So you know,

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Speaker 4: you can scream from the rooftop that you know there's

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Speaker 4: been fraud, and you can get on the airwaves and

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Speaker 4: make all the allegations that you want, but ultimately it's

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Speaker 4: courts of law that have to review that type of evidence.

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Speaker 2: And the Justice Department is looking to get voter rolls

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Speaker 2: from something like half the states that's in litigation. They

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Speaker 2: say they want the voter roles to protect the election integrity.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what would be a reason for them wanting

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Speaker 2: the voter rolls from every state?

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Speaker 4: Well, I suspect that there's an effort to determine whether

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Speaker 4: there are people on the voter roles who shouldn't be there,

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Speaker 4: and to sort of leverage the power of the federal

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Speaker 4: government to examine that material. But I think it's important

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Speaker 4: to note that federal law requires that states actively vet

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Speaker 4: their voter roles. There are very sort of careful processes

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Speaker 4: that every state is required to go through to make

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Speaker 4: sure that ineligible voters are not on their voter rolls,

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Speaker 4: and to clean them up periodically to make sure that

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Speaker 4: you know, as people move, as people pass away, that

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Speaker 4: the voter roles reflect that, you know, to identify double voting,

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Speaker 4: all these kinds of things. So states already go through

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Speaker 4: very rigorous procedures to make sure that their voter roles

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Speaker 4: are as accurate as possible. And I think it's worth saying,

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Speaker 4: you know, obviously that's a very herculean task because you know,

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Speaker 4: Americans move quite frequently. You know, there are constants sort

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Speaker 4: of turnover in terms of who should be and who

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Speaker 4: shouldn't be on the roles.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's.

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Speaker 4: An ongoing effort, but that's the job of state election

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Speaker 4: administrators and they take it very seriously.

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Speaker 2: Explain state versus federal as far as their roles in elections.

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Speaker 4: Sure, so, Article one, section four of the United States

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Speaker 4: Constitution grants states the authority to make rules involving the time, place,

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Speaker 4: and manner of elections. So that's a very clear federal

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Speaker 4: constitutional grant of power to the states. There is a

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Speaker 4: next phrase right after that that says that Congress can

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Speaker 4: make rules governing the time, place, or manner of elections also,

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Speaker 4: so there's this sort of way that the federal government

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Speaker 4: can sort of takeover elections if it wants. But the

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Speaker 4: grant of power to the federal government is to Congress,

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Speaker 4: not to the executive And so the feeling is that

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Speaker 4: unless Congress acts to take the power away from states

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Speaker 4: to manage their voter roles, that the executive branch has

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Speaker 4: no role in doing so.

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Speaker 2: Yesterday, President Trump suggested on a conservative podcast that Republican

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Speaker 2: state officials should take over and nationalize elections in fifteen

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Speaker 2: states to protect the party from being voted out of office.

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Speaker 2: That would violate the Constitution, wouldn't it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, as I just described, the US Constitution delegates

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Speaker 4: to states power over elections, so there would be no

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Speaker 4: ability for a political party or sort of by executive command,

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Speaker 4: for the federal takeover of elections. So that's sort of

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Speaker 4: a first point, and I think a second point that's

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Speaker 4: really important to make here is to underscore that there

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Speaker 4: are tons of protections within state law that ensure that partisans,

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Speaker 4: that is, Republicans and Democrats, members of the two major parties,

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Speaker 4: are present and able to sort of weigh in and

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Speaker 4: hold accountable elections at every level. So this is from

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Speaker 4: boards of elections that are populated with Republicans and Democrats

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Speaker 4: all the way down to partisan poll observers where Republicans

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Speaker 4: and Democrats sort of are authorized to watch every aspect

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Speaker 4: of elections, from authorizing voting machines right up until you're

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Speaker 4: counting the ballots, and so there already is a huge

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Speaker 4: amount of what I call adversarial oversight of the election

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Speaker 4: process to make sure that one party is not able

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Speaker 4: to sort of do anything fraudulent or in secret without

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Speaker 4: the other party sort of being privy and present. So

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Speaker 4: those kinds of adversarial protections are very much part of

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Speaker 4: our election process and should provide some comfort for anyone

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Speaker 4: who's concerned about either Republicans or Democrats sort of taking over.

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Speaker 4: In other words, elections are bipartisan efforts at every level.

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Speaker 2: And he is repeating the claim that immigrants are voting illegally.

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Speaker 2: Is that prevalent? Does it happen?

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Speaker 4: Oh, it certainly happens in the sense that some when

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Speaker 4: I've seen sort of reports on this, it's usually somebody

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Speaker 4: who mistakenly believes that they are allowed to vote. So,

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Speaker 4: for example, they get a driver's license and they're asked,

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Speaker 4: do you want to register to vote? They don't understand

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Speaker 4: what that means. They mistakenly get put on the roles

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Speaker 4: of this kind of thing. But I think, you know,

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Speaker 4: common sense dictates the reality that if you're in this

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Speaker 4: country illegally, the last thing you want to do is,

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Speaker 4: you know, do something illegal that is registered to vote

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Speaker 4: and sort of push yourself out there. I mean, people

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Speaker 4: who in this country who are here illegally, you know,

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Speaker 4: are are not. I think it's safe to say, you know,

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Speaker 4: coming out in droves to register themselves with state governments.

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Speaker 4: So I think, you know, the idea that there are

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Speaker 4: massive numbers of non citizens voting in our elections sort

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Speaker 4: of defies credulity for that reason.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for an interesting conversation, Rebecca. That's Professor

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Speaker 2: Rebecca Green of William and Mary Law School. Coming up

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Speaker 2: next on the Bloomberg Law Show. Tom Goldstein, once a

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Speaker 2: legal superstar, is on trial for tax evasion and his

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Speaker 2: double life as a high stakes poker player is at

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Speaker 2: the heart of the charges. I'm June Grosso and you're

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Speaker 2: listening to Bloomberg. Tom Goldstein was known as a superstar lawyer,

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Speaker 2: in fact, a superstar Supreme Court litigator who argued forty

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Speaker 2: five cases before the High Court. He also co founded

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Speaker 2: the most prominent blog covering the court, appropriately called Scotis Blog.

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Speaker 2: That's why it came as a shock to the legal

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Speaker 2: establishment when Goldstein was indicted last January for scheming to

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Speaker 2: evade ten axes and using millions of dollars from his

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Speaker 2: law firm to cover gambling debts. According to the indictment,

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Speaker 2: Goldstein was living a double life with a side career

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Speaker 2: as a high stakes poker player, very high stakes, winning

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Speaker 2: more than fifty million dollars in a series of poker

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Speaker 2: matches in twenty sixteen to fund a lavish lifestyle. Now

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Speaker 2: Goldstein is putting his cards on the table in court,

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Speaker 2: where again the stakes are very high. He's facing prison

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Speaker 2: time if convicted. My guest is Holly Barker, a senior

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Speaker 2: reporter for Bloomberg Law who's covering the Goldstein trial. So

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Speaker 2: Holly tell us about Tom Goldstein.

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Speaker 1: So Tom Goldstein, I think is best described as a

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Speaker 1: legal nerds for celebrity. He co founded scotislog dot com,

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Speaker 1: which was this groundbreaking online resource on the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: back in two thousand and two. It was a big deal,

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Speaker 1: particularly at the time because the Supreme Court's website, if

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Speaker 1: it had one, was an It's nacency and it just

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Speaker 1: wasn't terribly it accessible. He also cultivated the career as

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Speaker 1: a really high profile Supreme Court advocate. He argued dozens

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Speaker 1: of cases before the High Court. And what makes that

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Speaker 1: even more impress is that, unlike many of those who

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Speaker 1: can make the same claim, he didn't go to an

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Speaker 1: elite law school or Cork for a justice. He instead

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Speaker 1: hustle his way into the career by identifying circuit slates

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Speaker 1: and cool calling parties to offer his representations. So he's

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Speaker 1: sort of this unlikely Supreme Court star and is very

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Speaker 1: well known in legal circles, especially in Washington, DC, and.

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Speaker 2: Talking about unlikely tell us about the reaction when he

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Speaker 2: was indicted.

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Speaker 1: People were shocked. He was indicted in January twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: and he was initially facing twenty two counts, mostly tax charges.

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Speaker 1: The government moved to dismiss six of them on the

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Speaker 1: ease of trial. So now he's facing one count of

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Speaker 1: taxivation for twenty sixteen, eight counts of aiding and assisting

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Speaker 1: in a preparation of false tax returns, and that's twenty

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Speaker 1: seventeen through twenty twenty one, four counts of will full

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Speaker 1: failure to pay taxes for twenty seventeen, twenty nineteen, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty and twenty twenty one, and three counts of making

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Speaker 1: a false statement on alone application. So for the tax

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Speaker 1: eVision count, the government's advancing eight theories of alleged quote

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Speaker 1: unquote active evasions. They include using his law firm funds

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Speaker 1: to pay personal gambling debts, so mischaracterizing personal expenses is

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Speaker 1: business expenses. Providing false and complete information to his accounting firm,

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Speaker 1: making false and misleading statements to an IRS revenue officer,

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Speaker 1: transferring at least nine hundred and sixty thousand impersonal funds

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Speaker 1: to his firm's trust accounts to shield the funds from

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Speaker 1: IRS collection allegedly, and to use foreign individuals and bank

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Speaker 1: accounts to receive income. To the fraudulent tax return charges,

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Speaker 1: those are based on particular line items on his tax

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Speaker 1: returns of prosecutors or pay false like close receives other

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Speaker 1: income so forth, and the willful failure to pay counts

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Speaker 1: are based on his alleged failure to pay his taxes

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Speaker 1: on the date that they would do. So he filed

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Speaker 1: a tax atturn, got an extension, eventually paid the taxes

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Speaker 1: and penalties and interest, but the government theories that he

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Speaker 1: had the money available to pay the taxes when they

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Speaker 1: were due, but instead elected to fund this ultra high

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Speaker 1: stakes gambling and ultra luxury lifestyle. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: sort of where the real shock in the public came

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Speaker 1: was sort of you know, there had been some media's

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Speaker 1: coverage of gold scenes gambling in the past people were

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Speaker 1: sort of aware of it, but I don't think that

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Speaker 1: the public sort of had a sense of how serious

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Speaker 1: of the gambler he was, or that he was playing

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Speaker 1: multimillion dollar hands. You know. There were also allegations that

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Speaker 1: his defense team was able to get excluded about Paramore's

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Speaker 1: women he was having relationships with that he allegedly had

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Speaker 1: on the firm's payroll. But all of that got cosst

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Speaker 1: you know. I think it was shocking to see such

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Speaker 1: a high profile sort of legal hero be us of

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Speaker 1: such serious crimes down These are allegations, right, but it's

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Speaker 1: quite a fall from grace even to be indicted on

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Speaker 1: charges like that. So people were shocked.

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Speaker 2: The amount of money on the table in these poker

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Speaker 2: games is sort of astonishing, and the people that he

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Speaker 2: was playing with, high rollers and movie stars like Toby maguire,

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Speaker 2: very far from the legal world.

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Speaker 1: It's mind bobbling. He really was sort of living a

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Speaker 1: parallel life.

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Speaker 2: During the opening statements, the prosecution and defense painted two

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Speaker 2: very different pictures, basically two stories of what the case

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Speaker 2: is about.

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Speaker 1: That's right, so the government is painting a picture of

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Speaker 1: this hunning, smart, charming, very capable. Supreme Court lawyer who

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Speaker 1: used his wiles to try to win tons of money gambling,

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Speaker 1: wasn't always very good at it, and you know, was

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Speaker 1: intentionally trying to get around his taxes in order to

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Speaker 1: keep funding this lifestyle. That's the less of the government's case.

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Speaker 1: So his defense, and to be clear, he hasn't put

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Speaker 1: on this case set. It's still the government's case in chief. Still,

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Speaker 1: he teed up his defenses at opening and has managed

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Speaker 1: to pease some of it out and cross examinations. So

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Speaker 1: the themes and the defenses include one a botched and

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Speaker 1: incomplete government investigation. So he claims this whole investigation was

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Speaker 1: driven by prosecutors and agents who were afflicted by tunnel vision.

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Speaker 1: They sort of decided he was guilty and were only

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Speaker 1: hunting for facts and evidence that substantiated that view. The

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Speaker 1: government keeps claiming that he failed to report significant gambling winnings,

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Speaker 1: but the defense is shown through a cross examination. But

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Speaker 1: he didn't always keep what he won and was often

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Speaker 1: playing with other people's money. You know, Tom Goldstein is

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Speaker 1: not a billionaire. He was playing billionaires. In order to

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Speaker 1: do that, he often had financial backers, like investors who

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Speaker 1: had stakes in the game. So you know, he may

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Speaker 1: have won fifty million dollars playing heads up poker, but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean he took home fifty million dollars. And

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Speaker 1: the government has a picture and they stipulated to sort

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Speaker 1: of what some of those gambling wins and losses were,

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Speaker 1: but they've done a pretty good job of suggesting that

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Speaker 1: the government just doesn't have a complete picture, And in

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Speaker 1: mischaracterized transactions and allegedly false entries on tax returns, he

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Speaker 1: basically claims that he was relying on his firm managers

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Speaker 1: and the expertise of outside accountants and tax repairers. You know,

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Speaker 1: they weren't asking the right questions. They were making assumptions

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Speaker 1: and they shouldn't have and so forth. He's also been

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Speaker 1: playing up the complexity of the tax laws and reporting

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Speaker 1: gambling income in particular, and challenging the element of wilfulness,

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Speaker 1: which is a heightened intent standard that's in play for

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Speaker 1: tax charges. So, you know, while the prosecution has made

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Speaker 1: a lot of gold seam smarts and status as an

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Speaker 1: elite lawyer, again, the defense has done a good job

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Speaker 1: of eliciting testimony to supporting his claim and the theme

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Speaker 1: that he just wasn't teamed into the firm finances like, yes,

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Speaker 1: it is very detailed oriented when it came to a

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Speaker 1: practice of law, but much less so in management of it.

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Speaker 1: And then finally for the willful to pay charges. The

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Speaker 1: trust of this argument is what like, I filed banker turned,

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Speaker 1: I got the necessary extensions, I entered into a payment plan,

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Speaker 1: Like how was I supposed to know? I could put

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Speaker 1: a jail for this. The idea is, you know, lots

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Speaker 1: of people don't pay their taxes on time and they

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Speaker 1: don't get indicted for it, you know, instead of handled

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Speaker 1: with interest and penalties.

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Speaker 2: That's an argument that I think would appeal to a

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Speaker 2: lot of people, especially those who may have filed late

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Speaker 2: once or twice. And tell us about the IRS agent

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Speaker 2: who had audited Goldstein in twenty twelve, who testified that

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Speaker 2: he told Goldstein's then accountant and power of attorney that

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Speaker 2: he needed to keep better records of his gambling wins

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Speaker 2: and losses.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So they've had a couple of IRS agents

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Speaker 1: revenue agents testify, and one of them testified about an

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Speaker 1: audit that predates all of this, and you know, at

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Speaker 1: the end of that audit, which by the way, he

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Speaker 1: wound up getting a refund, so the IRS paid Heen

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Speaker 1: money out of the audit. But you know, he yet

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Speaker 1: a proxy dealing with the IRS directly. But the RS

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Speaker 1: agent said that he told his proxy, the accountant as

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Speaker 1: powever attorney, that is, that he needed to keep more

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Speaker 1: robust gambling records, he needed to keep a more complete ledger.

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Speaker 1: Was basically the th rest of it. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the defense made the point, you know, the RS agent

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Speaker 1: didn't pay that directly to gold Scene, and when the

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Speaker 1: accountant testified, he's like, you know, I'm assuming that I

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Speaker 1: delayed that to gold Scene, but he doesn't have like

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Speaker 1: a specific memory of it. He's just assuming he did

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Speaker 1: because that's what he did. As a matter of course.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that he said was basically that you know,

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Speaker 1: gold Scene terminated him at the end of that audit,

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Speaker 1: and it was basically gold Scene wasn't happy that he'd

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Speaker 1: wound up in an audit and was upset with him

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Speaker 1: the accountant for not having asked more follow up questions

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Speaker 1: because gold Stein had mentioned gambling to him, So that

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Speaker 1: sort of helped his case or his argument that look

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Speaker 1: like I was relying on outside experts.

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Speaker 2: If the theory is that he wasn't a great poker player,

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Speaker 2: then why were people investing in his poker playing?

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Speaker 1: Good question? So apparently he was pretty good at heads

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Speaker 1: up poker, not as good at being it's called a

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Speaker 1: ring match. So the head up game was two players,

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Speaker 1: just one on one ring game? Is there more than two?

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Speaker 1: I guess he was better at one than the other,

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Speaker 1: and good enough that people at least in the heads

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Speaker 1: up games were willing to invest in them. And you know,

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Speaker 1: and he won a lot. He wound up it looks

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Speaker 1: like perhaps losing more often than in years after twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: but twenty sixteen was definitely a big year for him.

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Speaker 1: Evidence a trial shows that he won around twenty six

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Speaker 1: million if he was twenty six twenty four million from

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Speaker 1: outscorts his billionaire. So he was good enough. You know.

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Speaker 1: He was described by professional poker players as I think

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Speaker 1: the word aggressed came up more than once, Like multiple

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Speaker 1: people described him his aggressive, and another witness described him

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Speaker 1: as sort of a crazy man. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: guess maybe that works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't.

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Speaker 2: Spider Man star Toby McGuire took the stand, tell us

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Speaker 2: how he fit in here?

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Speaker 1: So Toby McGuire hired Goldstein to help him recover part

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Speaker 1: of a very significant gambling that from Andy Beal, who

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Speaker 1: is a Texas billionaire. Toby had played them won a

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Speaker 1: bunch of money. Mister Bial didn't want to pay up,

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Speaker 1: so McGuire hires Goldstein to help him get his money back,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately Goldstein gets a successful result for him, and

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Speaker 1: you know, deal pays up everything that he owes and

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Speaker 1: then Goldstein gets a five hundred thousand dollars fee.

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Speaker 2: Hold that thought.

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Speaker 1: Holly.

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Speaker 2: Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, I'll into

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Speaker 2: this conversation with Holly Barker. We'll find out more about

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Speaker 2: Toby McGuire's testimony and the jury's reaction to having a

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Speaker 2: movie star in the courtroom. We've been talking about the

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Speaker 2: trial of Tom Goldstein, once a legal superstar at the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court who led a double life as a high

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Speaker 2: stakes poker player with a lavish lifestyle. The government alleges

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Speaker 2: that Goldstein deliberately failed to tell his accountants about twenty

403
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Speaker 2: six million dollars in poker winnings and repeatedly opted not

404
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Speaker 2: to pay his taxes on time, while the defense says

405
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Speaker 2: the evidence will show that Goldstein did tell his accountants

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Speaker 2: about the winnings and that the lifestyle evidence is just

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Speaker 2: a distraction. The trial is offering a colorful glimpse into

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Speaker 2: the world of ultra high stakes poker. Spider Man star

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Speaker 2: Toby McGuire testified. Knowing Goldstein from Poker Circles. Watching all

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Speaker 2: the testimony is Holly Barker Bloomberg Laws senior reporter Holly

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Speaker 2: tell us about Toby maguire's testimony.

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Speaker 1: So Toby McGuire was called to testify and connection with

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Speaker 1: a legal fee that he was owed to Goldstein, but

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Speaker 1: that Goldstein asked him to instead wire to a real

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00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: estate model named Bob Sasai. Goldstein had played Bob Sofy

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Speaker 1: and lost a significant amount of money and actually had

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Speaker 1: a payment plan, and he had McGuire you direct his

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Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars fee to Sufly in order to

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Speaker 1: satisfy part of that poker debt. And the idea was

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Speaker 1: that that income should have been reported as income to

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Speaker 1: Goldstein's law firm. But by having McGuire send this directly

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Speaker 1: to a poker buddy he had money to, he sort

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Speaker 1: of avoided having to report it his income. And that

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Speaker 1: was the gist of it. And the matter that Goldstein

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Speaker 1: was representing in and McGuire and gold Sea met one

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Speaker 1: another in poker circles, and maguire hired Goldstein because he

427
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Speaker 1: wanted to collect a seven point eight billion dollar gambling

428
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Speaker 1: that from Tessa's billionaire Andy deal. And Goldstein did it

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Speaker 1: and was successful in collecting that, And was.

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Speaker 2: The jury sort of starstruck when McGuire testified.

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Speaker 1: Not at all, or at least if they were, they

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Speaker 1: didn't show it. They treated him just like they treated

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Speaker 1: every other witness, these same level of engagement, same expressions

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Speaker 1: on their face. It wasn't quite as exciting as I

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Speaker 1: think people may have expected it would be. You know,

436
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,719
Speaker 1: he wasn't on the stand for very long. Is testimony

437
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: was fairly clean. You know, he looked at ease. He

438
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: was pretty smiley. I think a lot of witnesses and

439
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: they get on the stand and they do that if

440
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: they get a little bit nervous.

441
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 2: He is or was a huge poker player, right, millions

442
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: and millions and millions of dollars.

443
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: When he left that courtroom, I was left with the

444
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: impression that he might make more money gambling that he

445
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: makes playing Spider Man.

446
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 5: So he's still gambling's complected.

447
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 2: Tell us about this bag of cash that prosecutors wanted

448
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 2: to introduce, but the judge would not let them.

449
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, the allegation is in the inviictment and there's been

450
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 1: lots of testimony about it. Gold Steine brought close to

451
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: a million dollars in cash when he was returning from

452
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: a trip from Asia and he was going through Dollars

453
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: International Airport, and prosecutors saying that when he was talking

454
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: to the agent, he said, you know, oh, the money

455
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: was gambling and this is to a Customs and Border patrologience.

456
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: But then when he talked to an IRS agent later

457
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: he said it was alone. But then when he was

458
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: talking to a firm manager, he said it was legal fees.

459
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: So they're basically saying that this was income that he

460
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: didn't properly characterize, and they had hoped this wasn't before

461
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: the jury. This is, you know, a discussion that was

462
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: held outside of the presence of the jury, but they

463
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: wanted to bring like a representative bag of cash, and

464
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: during the Customs and Border patrol agents testimony, and the

465
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 1: judge just said that, you know, we don't see what

466
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: the proporate value that is. It's not even the same

467
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: bag of cash. It's not even the same bag. I mean,

468
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: I think it's it's pretty clear that the prosecution wanted

469
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: it for effect, but it did not get it.

470
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 2: And how do you even bring that much money through customs?

471
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: Apparently it's a thing. They have cash counters and you

472
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: spend a little time and the whole thing.

473
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 5: Really, I mean, how is the prosecution's case going. It

474
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 5: seems like the defense has been able to make some

475
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 5: of their points through cross examination.

476
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: That's a really good question. I'm still frankly trying to

477
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: digest the case in chief the prosecution as a goal

478
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: of resting on Thursday, I think it's much more likely

479
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: that Eric's case and chief goes into Friday. They've had

480
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: twenty three witnesses to date. You know, we don't have

481
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: the whole sense of who the remaining witness is are,

482
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: but we know at least two of them are going

483
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: to be two of the outside accountants, and I think

484
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: their testimony is going to be a very big deal

485
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: because they're going to be able to speak sort of

486
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: directly to what their interactions with gold Stein were, sort

487
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: of around tax preparation. But to the answer your question,

488
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: the jurors, I think, are going to have a really

489
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: difficult time personal of this. And I think it's less

490
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: about the facts of the transaction, like, you know, did

491
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: these transactions occur where they mischaracterize that sort of thing,

492
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: and more about what was in Goldstein's mind, And that

493
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: is really what the jurors are going to have to

494
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: contend with. And I do think that the prosecution has

495
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: done a very good job of, you know, keasing out

496
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: spaces for doubt wherever they are. I think the government

497
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: spaid a lot of time investigating this case, but I

498
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: think the defense is really going to hold them to

499
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: their burden.

500
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 5: They have to show that he had intent.

501
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: Yes, so there are mortgage fraud charges those are a

502
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: more straightforward, but the tax charges require a heightened intense

503
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: standard that the government has to prove that he intentionally

504
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: violated a known legal duty. So mistake and negligence is

505
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: not enough to carry the day on tax charges. So

506
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: if the defense can plant enough of the seed of

507
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: doubt about whether or not gold Stein intended to screw

508
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: this stuff up, you know, one of the things the

509
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: defense said in their opening was, this is a handful

510
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: of mischaracterized transactions in a sea of transactions over you know,

511
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: many years, and to sort of cherry to pick those

512
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: and conclude that he was up to no good as

513
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: a reach. That's sort of another scene of their defense,

514
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: you know. I don't think the prosecutors that have this

515
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: in the back, you know, notwithstanding a speaking indictment. So

516
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: we'll see.

517
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 5: Finally, I mean, is there any hint as to whether

518
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 5: Goldsteam might take the stand?

519
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: I honestly have.

520
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 5: Spoken, but cross examination for everyone, yeah.

521
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: You know, and I'm sure part of him is dying too.

522
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: I would imagine a lot of dependents want to be heard,

523
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: but it's that risk of cross examination that keeps them

524
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: from doing it. I'm sure that the jurors would like

525
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: to hear from him. I think in these cases, these

526
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: cases that turn so heavily on what was in a

527
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: defendant's mind, I think jurors are always hungry to hear

528
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: from them. So we'll see, well, you.

529
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: Know, what they say when the defendant takes the stand.

530
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: Then everything becomes about the defendant's testimony and whether the

531
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: jury believes him or her. So high stakes there as well.

532
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Holly, that's Bloomberg Law Senior reporter, Holly Barker,

533
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.

534
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

535
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

536
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 2: and at www dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law,

537
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: And remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

538
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. June Grosso and

539
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: you're listening to Bloomberg.

540
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 4: Mhmm,