Speaker 1: Hey there, I'm Kyle Triggs, the politics editor for Bloomberg Government,
Speaker 1: and I'm Greg Durou, Senior elections reporter for Bloomberg Government.
Speaker 1: Check out our podcast, down Ballot Counts. Each week, Greg
Speaker 1: and I will be breaking down all of those down
Speaker 1: ballot elections that make up the fight for the US Congress.
Speaker 1: Listen and subscribe to Downballot Counts from Bloomberg Government wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Andrew Wheeler gave a speech last week.
Speaker 1: He probably gave several, actually, but we're going to hone
Speaker 1: in on just one because it reveals a lot about
Speaker 1: how he and his agency think about racial justice and
Speaker 1: maybe even about how the president is trying to win
Speaker 1: reelection this fall. Hello, and welcome back once again to
Speaker 1: Parts per Billion, the environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, David Schultz. So, Andrew Wheeler gives a ton
Speaker 1: of speeches all the time. He's a member of the
Speaker 1: president's cabinet, so that's kind of just part of the job.
Speaker 1: But last week he spoke in California about an issue
Speaker 1: that's been at the top of many of our minds recently,
Speaker 1: racial justice. In this speech, Wheeler talked about how the
Speaker 1: EPA under both his and previous administrations hasn't done enough
Speaker 1: to address issues of environmental justice. Those are environmental problems
Speaker 1: that disproportionately affect people with low incomes and people of color.
Speaker 1: He also laid out a big five point plan to
Speaker 1: reorient several EPA programs to correct these historical mistakes. The
Speaker 1: topic of the speech was notable enough by itself, but
Speaker 1: the timing, just two months before the elections, of course,
Speaker 1: can't be ignored. To break all this down for us,
Speaker 1: we brought in Bloomberg Laws Stephen Lee. Stephen covered the
Speaker 1: rollout of Wheeler's environmental Justice plan, and he started off
Speaker 1: by explaining exactly what environmental justice is. Environmental justice or
Speaker 1: EJ is a movement to fix policies that have really,
Speaker 1: for decades been disproportionately harmful to the air, water, and
Speaker 1: land in low income community of color. Those are the
Speaker 1: neighborhoods where you know, factories and landfills and power plants,
Speaker 1: toxic dump sites, highways you know tend to be built.
Speaker 1: And EJ activists essentially just want fair treatment. They want
Speaker 1: a seat at the table in decision making, and but
Speaker 1: most of all, they want that stuff to be cleaned up.
Speaker 1: It's not a new thing. This movement has been alive
Speaker 1: for generations. There've always been people who have built grassroots
Speaker 1: coalitions and petitioned the government and stage nonviolent protests, you know,
Speaker 1: in their communities. They have historically borrowed a lot of
Speaker 1: the same tactics that were used in the civil rights
Speaker 1: movement in the sixties. But I think it's fair to
Speaker 1: say that given the national attention that is being paid
Speaker 1: to racism in this country right now, after the killings
Speaker 1: of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and so many others,
Speaker 1: that EJA leaders, I think see an opportunity to make
Speaker 1: some real progress and get some things done now. But
Speaker 1: I think that's a great point because it's not necessarily intuitive.
Speaker 1: I think you think, oh, we all breathe the air,
Speaker 1: we all drink the water, so if there's pollution in
Speaker 1: the air, this pollution in the water, it affects everyone.
Speaker 1: But what EJ activists environmental justice activists have been saying
Speaker 1: for a long time is that, no, it actually doesn't
Speaker 1: affect everyone. The burdens of pollution are disproportionately felt by
Speaker 1: people of color and people who have low income. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, It's worth noting also that there is kind
Speaker 1: of a chicken and egg problem here. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: do companies build polluting facilities in low income communities because
Speaker 1: that's where land is cheap, or do low income folks
Speaker 1: tend to move to those places with polluting facilities because
Speaker 1: that's what they can afford. You know, sometimes these two
Speaker 1: dynamics kind of blend together. But either way, to your point,
Speaker 1: there is I think clear evidence that those community these
Speaker 1: do suffer worst environmental impacts and have for a really
Speaker 1: long time. Yeah. And just as an example of this,
Speaker 1: this is something that we've talked about before on the podcast,
Speaker 1: but the vast majority of superfund sites, which are the
Speaker 1: most polluted sites in the country, are located very very
Speaker 1: close to public housing. That was a stat that was
Speaker 1: unearthed by our colleague Sylvia Kargdan. And it's as an
Speaker 1: example of, you know, one of the sort of premier
Speaker 1: environmental justice issues. Yeah, I think that's right. Super fun sites.
Speaker 1: And also one thing that you hear a lot about
Speaker 1: is you know, like transportation stuff, big highways, highway interchanges.
Speaker 1: You don't see those kinds of beautiful highways going through,
Speaker 1: you know, the lush landscape of like Westchester County in
Speaker 1: New York, right, exactly, it tends to be in you know,
Speaker 1: poor communities of color. That's where they build that stuff.
Speaker 1: So let's get to Andrew Wheeler. He's the head of
Speaker 1: the EPA, appointed by President Trump a few years ago.
Speaker 1: He recently gave a speech where he was talking about
Speaker 1: his thoughts on environmental justice and what the EPA needs
Speaker 1: to do. And based on your reporting, it sounded like
Speaker 1: he almost struck a self critical tone, which is surprising
Speaker 1: from any cabinet official in any administration, but especially this one.
Speaker 1: Am I right? Was he a little bit self critical
Speaker 1: about what the EPA has done on EJ under his tenure? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think a little bit. I mean I did not
Speaker 1: hear Wheeler say that the Trump EPA specifically has done
Speaker 1: a bad job on EJ. What I heard him say
Speaker 1: was that the EPA as an institution historically hasn't handled
Speaker 1: it in the right way. Going back many years now,
Speaker 1: you will hear lots and lots of EJ activists who
Speaker 1: will say that the Trump EPA has failed in ways
Speaker 1: that previous administrations have not, and that things have gotten
Speaker 1: worse for them under President Trump. But I didn't hear
Speaker 1: Wheeler himself take on the blame and say, you know,
Speaker 1: we the Trump EPA have fallen down on the job.
Speaker 1: But you're right. Just the acknowledgment that you know, my
Speaker 1: administration and the one before that and the one before that,
Speaker 1: you know, have really not done enough on this issue
Speaker 1: is is, I think a unique statement in and of itself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he said that, you know, we need to do a
Speaker 1: better job, and not just the EPA, but the entire
Speaker 1: kind of machinery of the federal government needs to do
Speaker 1: a better job of, you know, taking care of these
Speaker 1: racial disparities. And but that this is as I say,
Speaker 1: this is a problem that's been going on for a
Speaker 1: long time, and he's got a plan that he laid
Speaker 1: out to get better. We're going to take a quick
Speaker 1: break now, but when we get back, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: whether Wheeler's speech served double duty as a campaign rally
Speaker 1: for his boss. Stay with us. We're back and we're
Speaker 1: talking with Bloomberg Lass Stephen Lee about Andrew Wheeler's new
Speaker 1: five point plan to address environmental justice issues. Stephen went
Speaker 1: into exactly what is in this plan and what it
Speaker 1: would do. He laid out five things in his speech
Speaker 1: last week. Okay, Number one creating a community driven environmentalism
Speaker 1: that promotes community revitalization. Number two, meeting the twenty first
Speaker 1: century demands for water, number three, reimagining Superfund as a
Speaker 1: project oriented program, for reforming the permitting process to empower states.
Speaker 1: And five creating a holistic pesticide program for the future.
Speaker 1: The part about being holistic was one of the real
Speaker 1: core themes of his address. You know, it was a
Speaker 1: little bit light on specifics. Maybe that's because this was
Speaker 1: kind of a big picture, sort of State of the
Speaker 1: Union type speech, But what I heard broadly was that
Speaker 1: the federal government and the EPA, you know, in over
Speaker 1: the next four years, is going to reorganize the way
Speaker 1: it works with communities in a broad way that doesn't
Speaker 1: just address spot fixes here and there. You know, he
Speaker 1: gave the example of an EJ community that fixes its
Speaker 1: air attainment but still has led in the water pipes
Speaker 1: and schools. Right, So he wants to coordinate with communities
Speaker 1: to in some way kind of attack the broad sort
Speaker 1: of systemic problems that a community is facing all sources
Speaker 1: of pollution, not just you know, one at a time.
Speaker 1: I think that's right. Yeah, I get the sense that
Speaker 1: environmental activists, and specifically environmental justice activists weren't really you know,
Speaker 1: bowled over by this address you quoted one of them
Speaker 1: is calling his speech Orwellian. Tell me about their reaction.
Speaker 1: What don't they like about what the administrator here is proposing.
Speaker 1: I think the thing about Orwellian was a reference to
Speaker 1: kind of like double speak. Sure, yeah, you know, you're right.
Speaker 1: It's not going over well at all among EJ folks.
Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of them after the speech,
Speaker 1: and they pretty much all said they find it hypocritical
Speaker 1: for Wheeler to make these kinds of claims given the
Speaker 1: EPA's record over the last four years. They point to
Speaker 1: a long list of rollbacks right that the Trump EPA
Speaker 1: has undertaken, everything from mercury emissions from power plants to
Speaker 1: methane leaks from gas pipelines to going outside the EPA,
Speaker 1: the rollbacks of the National Environmental Policy Act. And that's
Speaker 1: something that underprivileged communities have relied on very heavily to
Speaker 1: have a voice in the construction of highways and bridges
Speaker 1: and transmission lines and all sorts of things that can
Speaker 1: be really harmful to their communities. So, you know, based
Speaker 1: on that track record, they just simply do not believe
Speaker 1: that these are now priority issues. And others have said
Speaker 1: that the promises that were laid out in the speech
Speaker 1: were you know, quite vague, and so how do we
Speaker 1: know that these grand promises are going to become a reality.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, Wheelers' supporters will say that the
Speaker 1: best way you can help EJ communities is by giving
Speaker 1: people jobs, and that has been a big priority with
Speaker 1: the Trump administration, right to to you know, get environmental
Speaker 1: regulations out of the way of businesses, and to you know,
Speaker 1: give them more flexibility to do what they need to
Speaker 1: do or want to do right lift people out of poverty.
Speaker 1: That's the way that you really can help these these
Speaker 1: people who are struggling with a pollution. And I think
Speaker 1: it's also true that, you know, look, agencies, priorities can
Speaker 1: evolve even if something hasn't been high on the to
Speaker 1: do list in the past, that doesn't mean it still
Speaker 1: can't be an aspirational goal going forward. Finally, though, let's
Speaker 1: talk about the timing of this speech that the administrator gave.
Speaker 1: We are about two months away from the elections in November.
Speaker 1: I know, cabinet officials, you know, aren't really supposed to
Speaker 1: sort of campaign for their bosses. But do you think
Speaker 1: there was some element here of Andrew Wheeler maybe trying
Speaker 1: to sway some voters in urban areas or in low
Speaker 1: income or ethnic communities to maybe sort of vote for
Speaker 1: his boss. I mean, is there any indication that played
Speaker 1: into this. That's a tricky one. I've been thinking about that.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, first of all, there is this
Speaker 1: narrative that voters of color almost universally are not with
Speaker 1: President Trump, So what's the point in trying to reach
Speaker 1: out to those communities? Right? But I think that's a
Speaker 1: bit of an oversimplification. I mean, there is polling out
Speaker 1: there that shows that I think about ten percent of
Speaker 1: the black population and like a third up to a
Speaker 1: third of Hispanic voters identify as Republicans, and that has
Speaker 1: been stable over time. So I mean, look, who knows
Speaker 1: how accurate that polling is. But the point is it's
Speaker 1: not as though Trump can afford to completely ignore those people.
Speaker 1: I heard also a theory from an environmentalist that the
Speaker 1: promises that Andrew Wheeler laid out are away for the
Speaker 1: Trump administration to give a kind of, you know, permission
Speaker 1: to either unmotivated voters or undecided voters, if there are
Speaker 1: any left to support the president, you know, it's he
Speaker 1: was talking about voters who maybe they're undecided or they're
Speaker 1: not sure if they're going to vote, but they care
Speaker 1: about the environment, they care about racial justice. They want
Speaker 1: to be able to vote for President Trump without feeling
Speaker 1: as though they're violating their principles. So maybe Wheeler's speech
Speaker 1: carved out a lane for them to do that. That
Speaker 1: was his theory, not mine. But you know, look, the
Speaker 1: thing is, as I mentioned, we tend not to think
Speaker 1: that there are a whole lot of voters out there
Speaker 1: who don't yet know whether they're in the Trump camp
Speaker 1: or the Biden camp, and for whom these remarks could
Speaker 1: tip the scales well. And the other thing that I
Speaker 1: thought about when I read your story and I saw
Speaker 1: the speech, and this is again very speculative. We're kind
Speaker 1: of trying to get in decide Andrew Wheeler's head here,
Speaker 1: so you know, take this with a grain of salt.
Speaker 1: But the other thing I thought about is that, you know,
Speaker 1: it's possible that President Trump may lose the election, in
Speaker 1: which case Andrew Wheeler would no longer be the head
Speaker 1: of the EPA, or it's possible that you know, Trump
Speaker 1: may win reelection and decide to go with a new
Speaker 1: administrator for his second term. If that's the case, Andrew
Speaker 1: Wheeler has to be thinking about his legacy and how
Speaker 1: people will remember him as the head of the EPA.
Speaker 1: Do you think that this speech and this type of
Speaker 1: initiative is a part of his thinking about I want
Speaker 1: to sort of bolster my legacy before I may leave
Speaker 1: office here. I wonder about that. You know, Andrew Wheeler
Speaker 1: is like a relatively young guy. He's he's going to
Speaker 1: continue to work after he leaves the EPA. I'm I
Speaker 1: think it is fair to say that, you know, nobody
Speaker 1: wants to be on record as having done nothing in
Speaker 1: this kind of Black Lives Matter or a moment like
Speaker 1: you want to have something on your resume that shows
Speaker 1: that you did take action. And on a somewhat unrelated point,
Speaker 1: you know, the EPA does say that they have since
Speaker 1: the killing of George Floyd, they have done a lot
Speaker 1: of internal training and a lot of sort of soul searching,
Speaker 1: if you like, about their kind of internal policies and
Speaker 1: how how they as an organization need to respond to
Speaker 1: this moment. So I don't know. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's a possibility. I've also heard people say, you know,
Speaker 1: supporters of this administration, that Andrew Wheeler is a guy
Speaker 1: that cares about you know, racial and justice and environmental justice,
Speaker 1: and he has for a long time, and so you
Speaker 1: have to take him at his word. When he says
Speaker 1: that he wants to do better for these communities, he
Speaker 1: means it, and that'll do it. For today's episode of Parspervillion.
Speaker 1: If you want more environmentally news, check out our website
Speaker 1: Newstop Bloomberg environment dot com. That website, once again is
Speaker 1: newst Bloomberg environment dot com. Today's episode of Parspabillion was
Speaker 1: produced by myself and Josh Block. Parsperbillion was created by
Speaker 1: Jessica Coombs and Rachel Daegel. The music for today's episode
Speaker 1: is a Message by Jazarre and Road to Memphis by
Speaker 1: Paul Bouchara and Emmanuel Jambonnet. They were used under a
Speaker 1: Creative Commons license. Thank you for listening. The killers of
Speaker 1: Berta Cassras had every reason to believe they'd get away
Speaker 1: with murder. Her work as an environmental activist won her
Speaker 1: the admiration of celebrities in California, politicians in Washington, and
Speaker 1: the indigenous communities she worked alongside in Honduras. It also
Speaker 1: earned her powerful enemies. On a new podcast from Bloomberg Green,
Speaker 1: Blood River follows a four year quest to find Bertica
Speaker 1: Cras's killers. Join journalist Montereal and the team from Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Green as they untangle false leads and mishandled evidence, taking
Speaker 1: listeners deep into a sector of international development that's marked
Speaker 1: by high level corruption and rampant violence. Blood River debuts Monday,
Speaker 1: July twenty seventh on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
Speaker 1: listen