1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 3 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 2: I'm Joe wysn't. 4 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 3: Thal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: Tracy obviously, new administration coming in. One of the stories 6 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: that we covered a lot with this administration was there 7 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: has been a lot happening in the energy world. 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 3: Yes, so obviously clean energy was a big part of 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 3: things like the IRA, but we also had the Department 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 3: of Energy's Loan Program's office, headed by Jiggershaw, who we've 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 3: had on the podcast a number of times deploying billions 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 3: of dollars across new clean energy. And the question that 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 3: everyone is asking now is how much of that is 14 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 3: durable in the face of a new administration which has 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 3: said various, let's just say, unflattering things maybe about Biden's 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 3: clean energy tendencies. 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: No, there's so much like we've probably I mean, if 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: we went back and looked at all of the episodes 19 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,279 Speaker 2: we've done and categorized them over the last four years, 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 2: because we've done lots of episodes about the specific technologies. 21 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: We've done episodes on nuclear, We've done numerous episodes on 22 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: oil and the use of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, and 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: we've done episodes on geothermal and then the return of 24 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: load growth in the in America between data centers and 25 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 2: economic growth, et cetera. We've probably done more energy episodes 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: than any other topic, or at least close, and we're 27 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 2: at a cross road. It's probably in multiple ways. The 28 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: changing the administration is the obvious one, but then there 29 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: are really just big questions about what's working and what's 30 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: the future of natural gas and how you know, Like 31 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 2: there are just so many ongoing energy questions that feel 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: very unresolved to me. 33 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: Yes, and we have another four years to look forward 34 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 3: to to ask more questions. 35 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 2: And then another four years after that. But I am 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 2: pleased to say. 37 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: It's energy questions forever. 38 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: I mean, it's because this is the human question, right, No, 39 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: for real, Like if we could get a little philosophical here, 40 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: it's energy questions forever, because human progress is the story 41 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: of getting more energy out of input. I forget the name. 42 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 4: Do you know that guy? 43 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: I can't think of his name. There's like this energy historian. 44 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: I thought you were going to say a philosopher. 45 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 4: He almost is. 46 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: He's I'm like blanking on his name. 47 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 3: People will remember a historian. 48 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: No, not Jurgen. He goes back deeper and he has 49 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 2: these books where he literally like calculates the amount of 50 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: human calories that someone would have had to expend five 51 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 2: thousand years ago to grow a plant or you know, 52 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: fight hunt an animal, and how many calories are expended 53 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: in that process versut how many calories you get out 54 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 2: of the animal that you hunt or whatever, and does 55 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: the subtraction and human progress is essentially the history of 56 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: expanding the gap between how much energy you put in 57 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 2: and how much energy you get out. So it really 58 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: will be energy questions forever. 59 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 3: Okay, now that we've set the scene, we've gone all 60 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 3: the way in prehistory to set the scene for a 61 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 3: discussion about the next four years and the previous four years, 62 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 3: I should say as well. 63 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: Well in the meantime, in a slightly shorter scale, we 64 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 2: do have absolutely the perfect guest. Today. We are going 65 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: to be speaking with Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm about everything 66 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: that's happened in the last four years and the political 67 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: durability questions and what she's done with the DOE during 68 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: her tenures. So Secretary Granholm, thank you so much for 69 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: coming on out lots. 70 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I love it. Thanks so much for having me absolutely. 71 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: You know, I want to start with sort of a 72 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: big picture question and maybe something that's been on my 73 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: mind for a while. Actually, we saw an incredible boom 74 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 2: under this administration in domestic oil production, also domestic guess production, 75 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: and I don't think it got a ton of attention 76 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: for various reasons, but also one of the reasons was 77 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: it didn't seem like it was something that at least 78 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: on the trail that the administration bragged about during the 79 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: election season. Is this something when you look back on 80 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 2: the last four years, and we'll get into some of 81 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: the new energy investments in the long term, is this 82 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: something that you are proud of, or that Democratic administration 83 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: should be proud of the success of our domestic hydrocarbons. 84 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 6: Well, we certainly have achieved energy dominance, that is for 85 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 6: sure under this administration. And much of that was due 86 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 6: to the fact, of course that there was the invasion 87 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 6: of Ukraine and it pulled a lot of Russian oil 88 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 6: off the global market, and so that really compelled us 89 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 6: to step up. And part of that stepping up was 90 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 6: releasing from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve enough to stabilize markets. 91 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 5: And so as a result. 92 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 6: Of that and the price signal that was set, the 93 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 6: demand signal that was set, I think we were able 94 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 6: to do that. And that's why gasoline today is hovering 95 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 6: just a little above three dollars a gallon, is because 96 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 6: there is supply on the market. But all of that 97 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 6: is true at the same time, as we were expanding 98 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 6: the energy pie significantly and saw obviously a huge investment 99 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 6: in both the manufacturing of products to bring us clean 100 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 6: energy as well as the deployment and the generation of 101 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 6: that energy. 102 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about that clean energy expansion then, and 103 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: I realized, you know, a lot of things have happened 104 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 3: over the past four years. US oil production has boomed, 105 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 3: as Joe just pointed out, but the Department of Energy, 106 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 3: the DOE itself has changed in terms of its role 107 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: in you know, not just energy security, but also in 108 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 3: the broader US economy. When you look at the DOE 109 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 3: now at the tail end of twenty twenty four versus 110 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 3: the DOE that you took over, what are the key differences? 111 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 3: How has it evolved? 112 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 6: It is such a great, such a great story because 113 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 6: the DEOE historically has been a research and development agency 114 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 6: with also a large focus on national security through our 115 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 6: nuclear deterrent and so we have seventeen national labs, and 116 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 6: we were focused on early stage research, maybe some small 117 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 6: scale demonstration, but really focused on the earlier side of 118 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 6: these technologies in addition to our nuclear weapons responsibilities. So 119 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 6: when we came in, we said, look, there is a 120 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 6: huge role here, an important role for deployment and for 121 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 6: focusing on the building out and the reshoring of manufacturing 122 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 6: of the products that would get us to that deployment. 123 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 6: So we reorganized the entire department. We added a whole 124 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 6: new vertical. 125 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 5: That was focused on deployment. 126 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 6: It was called it is called the Undersecretary for Infrastructure, 127 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 6: Clean Energy, Infrastructure. Recruited from the private sector, David Crane 128 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 6: to come in and head that up, and he brought 129 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 6: in a number of other people from both the finance 130 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 6: industry as well as the clean energy industry so that 131 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 6: we could match both our great research portfolio with marketing 132 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 6: making sure that these products would be successful in the marketplace. 133 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 6: And you know, when the Inflation Reduction Act was passed 134 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 6: and the bypart is an infrastructure law, the Department of 135 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 6: Energy got sixty new programs that we were to execute 136 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 6: on over one hundred billion dollars, and so that reorganization 137 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 6: of the department has enabled us to get that funding 138 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 6: out the door. I'm proud to say that as we're 139 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 6: speaking right now, ninety nine percent of the programs that 140 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 6: we were given have issued at least one round of funding. 141 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 6: And the reason why not all rounds of funding have 142 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 6: been issues because they're multi year commitments, multi year funding 143 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 6: opportunity announcements. So really we've really reorganized and the result 144 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 6: and the proof is not just inside of Dewey but 145 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 6: really across the country. And I hope we get a 146 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 6: chance to talk about that incredible manufacturing boom that's happened 147 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 6: as a result of the Inflation Reduction Act in energy. 148 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: I definitely want to talk about that. By the time 149 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: this episode comes out, this question may not even be 150 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: Germane anymore, but we are recording this on December twentieth, 151 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: and last night the House failed to pass a bill 152 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: that would have kept the government open. Just from your 153 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: perspective right now, if the government shuts down, what does 154 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: that mean for various things that have where the money 155 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: has not been sent out the door. What happens to 156 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: those plans? 157 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean some of that depends on how long 158 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 6: the shutdown is for. And we are able to manage 159 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 6: our Loan Program Office and our Deployment Arm through a shutdown, 160 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 6: through some bits of a shutdown. We are proceeding ahead, 161 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 6: and our teams are proceeding ahead. We're preparing for a lapse, 162 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 6: but we think we have the ability to get the 163 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 6: rest of the loan portfolio commitments that are teed up 164 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 6: out the door. 165 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 3: Maybe we can talk about the DIA bill of the 166 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 3: loans more broadly, because you know, regardless of what happens 167 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 3: with the shutdown, there is the new administration coming in. 168 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 3: Both Joe and I were at the Deploy twenty twenty 169 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 3: four event in DC recently, and you gave a great 170 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 3: speech there, but I got to say, like it felt 171 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 3: a little bit like a therapy session for people that 172 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 3: were there. Like the message was very much don't panic, 173 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 3: keep calm and carry on. I think you even flashed 174 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: that old wartime poster up. Yeah, And there is like 175 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 3: a sense of uneas or uncertainty about how much of 176 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: all of this is going to continue into the new administration. Like, 177 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 3: give us a sense of your gut feeling about it. 178 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 3: At the moment and what you're doing to ensure that 179 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: some of this work will continue. 180 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 6: As I mentioned, we're really focused on getting the remaining 181 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 6: funds out the door that we can in this year 182 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 6: and up to January twentieth. So that's one way is 183 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 6: once you have those commitments and obligations and contracts signed, 184 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 6: it's much. 185 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 5: More difficult to undo. 186 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 6: But also, as I mentioned at deploy twenty four, really, 187 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 6: perhaps I don't think I'm being irrationally exuberant, but I 188 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 6: do think that the Inflation Reduction Act and the fact 189 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 6: that there are for example, eighteen House Republicans who sent 190 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 6: a letter saying, please don't touch the Inflation Reduction Act 191 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 6: because it's benefiting their districts and their states. The fact 192 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 6: that eighty five percent of the funding is going to 193 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 6: read states and red districts gives me some hope that 194 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 6: those members of Congresses are not going to want to 195 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 6: undo the opportunities now now that their citizens have to 196 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 6: build these products of the future and future facing jobs. 197 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 6: I mean, it is astonishing that five over now five 198 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 6: hundred million, half a trillion dollars has been invested in 199 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 6: this clean energy economy in the United States since the 200 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 6: passage of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction 201 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 6: Act that is astonishing. And for every one dollar of 202 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 6: public money, there are six dollars of private money. So 203 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 6: the private sector is going to have something to say 204 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 6: about this as well, and they don't want to obviously 205 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 6: see this undone we've made. And honestly, just from a 206 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 6: if you step back from a policy point of view, 207 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 6: Democrats and Republicans agree that we should be reshoring these 208 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 6: manufacturing jobs that were lost because of poor trade deals 209 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 6: or trade deals that were unenforced. We should be getting 210 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 6: those back. Why would we be ceding the territory to 211 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 6: China or any other country. And so the fact that 212 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 6: that's happening, the fact that over nine hundred, almost nine 213 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 6: hundred and fifty factories have been announced across this country 214 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 6: is astonishing, and they're happening in all these communities that 215 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 6: have been often left behind in the past, and so 216 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 6: I think it would be political malpractice to undo that. 217 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 6: So I have great optimism that it will continue. Plus, 218 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 6: the margins in the House are so narrow that eighteen 219 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 6: Republicans that and again and that was a couple that 220 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 6: was a month or more ago signed a letter saying 221 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 6: don't undo this. I think it's very unlikely to be undone. Now, 222 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 6: will there be components of things that are you know 223 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 6: that folks have been talking about. You know, will they 224 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 6: try to block additional funding for EV chargers for example? 225 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 6: You know, perhaps perhaps some of that around the edges. 226 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 6: But I don't think the manufacturing side, and the supply 227 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 6: chains and the critical minerals that are being incentivized to 228 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 6: be produced inside the United States, I don't think that's 229 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 6: going to go away. 230 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: Just to push back on this a second, I think 231 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 2: you have trade deals in the past that have hollowed 232 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: out certain manufacturing capacity in the US, which many people. 233 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 4: Might agree with. 234 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: On the other hand, if others would say, well, if 235 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: the actual imperative for a lot of this stuff is 236 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 2: climate specifically, why not import more from the lowest cost, 237 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: largest scale producer of climate tech cheap solar, cheap batteries. 238 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: We put a pretty big tariffs on ev tech in 239 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: the US. We want to bring solar back. From a 240 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 2: job standpoint, I get it, But reconcile that with the 241 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: sort of urgency that the administration has talked about with climate. 242 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 6: Well, I think we can achieve that urgency and we 243 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 6: can build at home. But let's just say this, it 244 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 6: would be really foolish to trade our reliance upon oil 245 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 6: from Opec for a reliance upon technology from China. If 246 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 6: we want to be energy secure, if we want to 247 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 6: be strong as a nation, A nation that doesn't manufacture 248 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 6: the means for its own energy security is a weak nation. 249 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 6: And we are not going to be a weak nation. 250 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 6: This is why we have You know, other countries have 251 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 6: engaged in industrial strategy, industrial policy, and we have not, 252 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 6: and our failure to do so had left us without 253 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 6: a manufacturing sector. And part of that is for our 254 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 6: national defense as well, and so just letting it go 255 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 6: overseas is a terrible strategy for national security and for 256 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 6: energy security. And so I think that I totally understand. 257 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 5: We want these products to be. 258 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 6: Cheap, we want them to be less expensive, affordable for 259 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 6: our people, and we continue to drive down that cost. 260 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 6: It's the United States and our technology, our research and 261 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 6: development that has brought down the price of batteries by 262 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 6: eighty five percent, now, I mean, and the same with 263 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 6: solar technologies. And it's true that China came in and 264 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 6: had a strategy to bigfoot US and to take that 265 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 6: technology and to develop that technology and deploy it in China, 266 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 6: and we're saying no more. We're not going to sit 267 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 6: by and watch that happen. We are going to get 268 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 6: in the game. We're going to fight. And so I'm 269 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 6: excited that that's actually happening. As the former governor of Michigan, 270 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 6: who was governor during the time of the auto bankruptcies 271 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 6: and before, and who saw so many factories leaving our 272 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 6: state and the devastation that's left behind from communities that 273 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 6: saw those factories leave, I'm telling you this is a 274 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 6: whole new ballgame. It's like we are repairing the mistakes 275 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 6: of the past. We are bringing it back came providing 276 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 6: opportunity for folks here as well as creating the products 277 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 6: that we can stamp made in America and export around 278 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 6: the world. 279 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 3: I have a sort of DC process question. You're sort 280 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 3: of pointing out that there might be some areas of 281 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 3: overlap in terms of interests of the outgoing and the 282 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 3: incoming administrations. For instance, Trump seems to like nuclear energy 283 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: and Chris Wright certainly seems to like geothermal. When this 284 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 3: transition is actually happening, like during this time period, how 285 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 3: much dialogue. Is there between you and you know your 286 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 3: incoming successor and how do you sort of like hash 287 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 3: out the new priorities or is there like a handoff 288 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 3: note that you leave for your successor how does it 289 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 3: all work, what's the comms actually like? 290 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 6: Well, so, actually he and I have been trading phone calls, 291 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 6: and I fully expect I'll be sitting down with him. 292 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 6: Of course, it's going to be a new administration and 293 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 6: they are going to have different priorities, but they also 294 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 6: have a landing team, transition leaders will who are making 295 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 6: who are going to be advising the incoming secretary who 296 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 6: hasn't had the experience that Doe, but his landing team 297 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 6: all have been part of Doe in various ways in 298 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 6: the past, so there's a great familiarity there. So those 299 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 6: conversations are happening even as we speak. Right now, their 300 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 6: landing team is interviewing our various offices around the department 301 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 6: to see what has changed, what they want to keep, etc. 302 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 6: To your point, though, I just think it is critical 303 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 6: that people understand the bipartisan support for so many of 304 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 6: these technologies. You mentioned geothermal, you mentioned nuclear. We've been 305 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 6: hugely bullish on both of those, but there's also the 306 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 6: support for critical minerals and critical materials that build the 307 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 6: batteries that's happening through our Manufacturing and Energy Supply Chain's office. 308 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 6: There's bipartisan support for you know, hydroelectric power, for water power, 309 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,719 Speaker 6: you know, there's bipartisan support for hydrogen. And we're working 310 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 6: on all of those. And truly, so many of the 311 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 6: Republicans have said that they support an all of the 312 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 6: above strategy. And if it's all of the above and 313 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 6: we build out this clean energy, this energy pie, you 314 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 6: can't ignore the clean side. And many of those in 315 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 6: Congress who have been all of the above understand that fully. 316 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 2: When you think about the scale of the energy challenge 317 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: or planning, and you know, these are multi year, multi 318 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 2: decade ideas and nothing, you know, these dials shipped very slowly. 319 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 2: I'm curious when you think about the US political system 320 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 2: and the fact that who has power can change, certainly 321 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 2: every four years and actually every two years in many cases, 322 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 2: does this impair us when you look at you know, 323 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: you talked about industrial strategy around the world, and obviously 324 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 2: China comes to mind. I'm curious about how you sort 325 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: of reconcile what I see as a time duration mismatch 326 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 2: between the scale of these challenges versus the reality of 327 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: the political clock. 328 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 6: Well, there's no doubt that the climate imperative is upon us. 329 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 6: I mean we see every year all of these records 330 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 6: being broken, so we have a sense of we should 331 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 6: all have a sense of urgency about that. Some don't 332 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 6: see that as big of a challenge, but they do 333 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 6: see the global competition as a huge challenge to be surmounted, 334 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 6: and they don't want to miss out on the twenty 335 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 6: three trillion dollar global market that these clean energy products represent. 336 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 6: If we're not building them, someone else is going to 337 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 6: be building them, and why would we see the territory 338 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 6: So one way or the other, there's a sense of urgency. 339 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 6: What there's the urgency bumps up against is old process 340 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 6: and old mindsets. 341 00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 5: In some areas. 342 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 6: You know, one example I think of it, if we 343 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 6: had had the opportunity to have another term, I would 344 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 6: definitely have been pushing further on supporting the grid and 345 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 6: upgrading the grid. The grid is you know, seventy percent 346 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 6: of the grid is over twenty five years old, a 347 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 6: lot of it. 348 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 5: Built on wooden poles. 349 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 6: We've got all these extreme weather events we need a 350 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 6: resilient grid, and we don't have enough funding, and we 351 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 6: don't even think about it, honestly, in the way that 352 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 6: we should. We don't think about a national grid, you know, 353 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 6: because it's been pocketed in these silos all across the 354 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 6: country and there's so much state by state you know, 355 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 6: impact on that. But we should be thinking about it 356 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 6: like we do our national highway system. Honestly, We've got 357 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 6: a Highway Trust Fund, you've got state and federal participation. 358 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 6: That's how we should be looking at our energy grid 359 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 6: if we were to move this forward. And then the 360 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 6: other thing I would really focus on is the fact 361 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 6: that there's so much queued up in the interconnection cues. 362 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 6: You know, we've got three point seven tarowatts of power 363 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 6: que up, of clean power queued up. We need to overbuild, 364 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 6: and that blockage is a huge problem that I hope 365 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 6: the next administration addresses as well. 366 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: Wait, say more about the grid, because I wanted to 367 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 3: ask you about this. To some extent, it doesn't matter 368 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 3: how much clean energy we generate if we don't have 369 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 3: the grid that's like actually able to handle that in 370 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 3: an efficient way. What would you do if you were 371 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 3: going to mount you know some sort of project. Would 372 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 3: you try to be as ambitious as a national grid 373 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 3: of some sort or would you have to kind of 374 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 3: be more realistic and tinker at the edges. 375 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think you have to have both national as 376 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 6: well as local components, like you do your federal highway system. 377 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 6: And we have been in the process over the past 378 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,959 Speaker 6: four years of planning out what are those national interest 379 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 6: electric corridors and where can we better make sure that 380 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 6: the grid there's a handshake between one region and another. 381 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 6: So for example, you know, if you've got lots of 382 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 6: wind being generated in low population centers of the country, 383 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 6: but you don't have a grid to be able to 384 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 6: connect that to where population centers are, you're missing You're 385 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 6: missing the boat. And of course you want to make 386 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 6: sure that those communities are compensated for giving you know, 387 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 6: that power over and that's what's happening in many places, 388 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 6: but we need more of it. We have a dearth 389 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 6: of connection between regions and that needs to be invested in. 390 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 6: And I will say, you know, one of the great 391 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 6: things about working with our labs is that they are 392 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 6: always coming up with innovative solutions for how to get 393 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 6: around For example, NIMBI problems of transmission not in my 394 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 6: backyard problems. And so a lot of technology now that's 395 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 6: available to reconductor existing lines, so you can put twice 396 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 6: the power on existing transmission lines that you don't have, 397 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 6: so you don't have to get repermitted, et cetera. There's 398 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 6: new technologies about moving power, grid enhancing technologies, and you know, 399 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 6: dynamic line rating can move power much more efficiently. Those 400 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 6: technologies can also really add a lot of generation capacity 401 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 6: to the grid, like about one hundred gigawatts of that 402 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 6: just by enhancing technologies on the existing grid. 403 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 2: You know, you said something earlier in the conversation that 404 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: stuck with me and I wanted to go back to 405 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: it before I forget. You said it doesn't make sense 406 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: for the US to trade dependence on energy from OPEC 407 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 2: for technology from China, which intuitively makes sense to me. 408 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: On the other hand, the US is not really so 409 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 2: OPEC dependent anymore, and as we talked about in the beginning, 410 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 2: the US is just an extraordinary amount of carbon resources 411 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 2: here in the US, both between oil and gas, and 412 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 2: there's more and more of it being produced all the time. 413 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: Is there a sense from a sort of macro standpoint 414 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: in the US that the transition from carbons to more 415 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 2: electrified renewables, et cetera. Are we playing to our strengths 416 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 2: here or are we leaning against some of our natural 417 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 2: endowments that we have in the US. 418 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 6: Well, I think we've got endowments on both the molecule 419 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 6: side as well as the electron side. And we you know, 420 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 6: we've got, for example, these hydrogen hubs that we have 421 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 6: announced one in the Gulf Coast. A lot of the 422 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 6: oil and gas majors are very interested in clean hydrogen. 423 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 6: They would derive it from natural gas, so it would 424 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 6: be called blue hydrogen, but they would agree to sequester 425 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 6: the CO two and make sure. 426 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 5: There's no methane leaks along the way. 427 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 6: So you know what I say, the trading opek, what 428 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 6: I really is that we don't want to rely on 429 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 6: anyone else for our own energy, whether it is from 430 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 6: molecules or from electrons, and we don't you know, we 431 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 6: want to be able to supply cleaner techno, cleaner fuels, 432 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 6: whether it is you know, whether it's fossil fuels or 433 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 6: electricity to the world. We want us to be able 434 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 6: to export and in order to do that, we have 435 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 6: got to build up our capacity. I will say this 436 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 6: though the Department of Energy does not regulate how much 437 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 6: the oil and gas companies drill. 438 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 5: That's not in our purview. 439 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 6: And because there has been such an increase, there was 440 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 6: such an increase in drilling and improved techniques to be 441 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 6: able to drill both oil and gas, we saw this 442 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 6: great increase in production and export. But we also know 443 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 6: that at some point a number of international entities and 444 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 6: modelers are saying that we're going to reach peak oil 445 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 6: peak gas. 446 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: So we have to say a demand or supply. 447 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I mean demand and therefore supply will follow, right, 448 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 6: So I think it's really important to. 449 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 5: Have a long view. Of course, our goal is. 450 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 6: To get to net zero by twenty fifty, but it 451 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 6: is net zero, so that suggests that there will be 452 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 6: some fossil fuels, but there will be also technologies to 453 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 6: reduce the greenhouse gas emissions, which is one of the 454 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 6: reasons why the Department of Energy, in our labs, we've 455 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 6: been focused on what are those carbon management strategies that 456 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 6: will enable us to get to net zero. You know, 457 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 6: we have this other big, hairy, audacious goal, which is 458 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 6: to have a one hundred percent clean electric grid by 459 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 6: twenty thirty five, and we're on track to get there, 460 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 6: will be eighty percent clean, we at least per the 461 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 6: modelers by twenty thirty and on our way to that 462 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 6: last twenty percent, which is the hard hard to decarbonize portions. 463 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 6: But nonetheless, we feel that you have to do both. 464 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 6: You've got to you've got to make sure the world 465 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 6: is supplied, make sure prices don't go up on the 466 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 6: fossil side, while we use technologies that reduce greenhouse gas 467 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 6: emissions and we use technologies that generate. 468 00:25:41,920 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 3: Clean So on the topic of America being hashtag blessed 469 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 3: when it comes to hydrocarbons, I mean, one of the 470 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 3: things that did happen this year is President Biden stopped 471 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 3: licensing new LNG export terminals. And I haven't been following 472 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 3: that decision all that closely, but I think at a 473 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: minimum you could say that it became a pretty big 474 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 3: political controversy and one that is still kind of being 475 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 3: hashed out. So you guys just released a report looking 476 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 3: at the impact of LNG exports from the US. I 477 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 3: guess my question is, like, looking back, is there anything 478 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 3: that you would have done differently or looking back at 479 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 3: the sort of cost benefit analysis of making that a 480 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: whole big thing. Was it worth it. 481 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 6: Well, let me just say, first of all, yes, it 482 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 6: was because we needed to do this study because we 483 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 6: do authorize new LNG terminals. But this study was a 484 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 6: pause on new terminals, and we have already authorized so 485 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 6: much export of LNG. We've authorized forty eight billion cubic 486 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 6: feet per day of LNG. We're only exporting, as the 487 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 6: largest exporter in the world, about thirteen billion cubic feet 488 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 6: per day. So that gap in between thirteen and forty 489 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 6: eight is all stuff that's either being built or hasn't 490 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 6: even begun being built, hasn't even reached a final investment decision. 491 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 6: That forty eight billion cubic feet per day that's been 492 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 6: authorized is a massive amount. And so this pause to 493 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 6: do the study about whether more energy should be authorized 494 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 6: did not impact any of the buildout of existing authorizations, 495 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 6: and it didn't stop any exports from happening. It simply 496 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 6: did not touch that at all. There was fear that 497 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 6: it would do that, but it absolutely did not do that. 498 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 6: So it is important for us as a nation to 499 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 6: determine what's in the public interest in terms of the 500 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 6: export of natural gas that's required under the Natural Gas Act. 501 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 6: So what are the factors that you look at to 502 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 6: determine whether it's in the national interest of public interest, 503 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 6: and so taking a look at what are the impacts 504 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 6: at home? If you're exporting a lot of your liquefied 505 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 6: natural gas, that means you're taking away from the natural 506 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 6: gas that's used at home. Forty eight billion cubic feet 507 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 6: is basically about half of what we produce for all 508 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 6: natural gas for use in the United States. So what's 509 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 6: the impact on pricing for folks at home? That's one 510 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 6: of the factors. 511 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 5: We looked at. 512 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 6: What is the impact on greenhouse gas emissions around the 513 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 6: world by exporting that? What is being displaced by that? 514 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 6: Those are the things that the study looked at. The 515 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 6: study was done by scientists and researchers at our national Labs, 516 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 6: and it came out found out that there are impacts, 517 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 6: and the question is going forward, how the data from 518 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 6: the study will be used by the next administration and beyond. 519 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: On that point, obviously, GUS is a global market, and 520 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,239 Speaker 2: you know in the end there are certain things if 521 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: there's demand for it, or if you you know, years 522 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 2: down the road, there's demand for it, that that's probably 523 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: up to private sector actors to decide whether they want 524 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: to make the investments in those terminals. And if there's 525 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: not demand for it, then there's not. But when you 526 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: think about the sort of carbon impacts, the price impacts, 527 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 2: you lay it out in the study, perhaps up to 528 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 2: one hundred dollars a year extra for an American family 529 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: by the year twenty fifty. So somewhat modest on the 530 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 2: carbon impacts. However, does it change the dial I mean, 531 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,719 Speaker 2: like when you think about these things, when you think 532 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 2: about the fact that there's a global market, and so 533 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: if someone if a country is not going to get 534 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: their gas from the US, they'll get it elsewhere. And 535 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 2: of course it's very important that the US was in 536 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 2: a position to step up for energy exports, especially when 537 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: the war in Ukraine happened. I'm just trying to think 538 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: about the concern of further expansion of our export capacity 539 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: if in fact that's what the world wants for the 540 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 2: global market. 541 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 6: So, first of all, just to underscore that forty eight 542 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 6: billion cubic feet day that is almost meeting what demand 543 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 6: is going to be by twenty fifty. It's just a 544 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 6: huge amount of If it's all built out now, it 545 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 6: may not all be built out to your point. You know, 546 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 6: the companies themselves have to get a final investment decision, 547 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 6: and if the demand is not projected to be there 548 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 6: for that, maybe that won't all be built out. But 549 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 6: it is true the US has an advantage in producing 550 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 6: clean gas. Cutter is trying to rival us. But we 551 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 6: would like to see the furtherance of a whole methane 552 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 6: mitigation and monitoring regime that we do with our allies 553 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 6: so that we can reduce the greenhouse gas emissions, especially 554 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 6: particularly methane emissions from LNG and at the point of 555 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 6: combustion reducing the CO two emissions as well. So there's 556 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 6: work to be done on that to create a you know, 557 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 6: an environment where we are producing the cleanest gas and 558 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 6: it's being used in the cleanest way, and the US 559 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 6: is going to be in that in that role, and 560 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 6: in fact, the oil and gas majors very much want 561 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 6: to see us to continue to have an effort globally 562 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 6: and to be leading an effort to reduce methane emissions 563 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 6: globally so. 564 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 5: That their product is the product of choice. 565 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 3: So the other thing that's happened in the past four 566 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 3: years is we've had the rise of generative AI and 567 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 3: booming demand for data centers, which obviously use a lot 568 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 3: of energy. How has that impacted your role at the DOE. 569 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 3: Is it an opportunity for you to maybe push clean 570 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 3: energy a little more if you're dealing with tech companies 571 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 3: that have made clean energy commitments. 572 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, this is such a great question and so important. 573 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 6: We recently today actually in fact, our Lawrence Berkeley National 574 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 6: Laboratory released a report talking about the increase in demand 575 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 6: based upon data centers alone on the grid, and we 576 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 6: are going to have to add lots of gigawatts to 577 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 6: be able to meet that. And so the conversations that 578 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 6: we've been having and the White House is convened the 579 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 6: hyperscalers as they for. We want the data centers to 580 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 6: be built in the United States for national security reasons, 581 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 6: particularly AI, the learning model data centers. We want the 582 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 6: hyperscalers to bring their own power, meaning that we don't 583 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 6: want the energy suck from these data centers to be 584 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 6: socialized across the rate base. Everyday citizens shouldn't have to 585 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 6: pay for that, and we want it to be clean. 586 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 6: And they've all committed, they've committed to their shareholders and 587 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 6: their strategic plans to use clean power. And so as 588 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 6: a result, I mean, you're seeing some very interesting announcements 589 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 6: where you've got hyper scalers teamed up with for example, 590 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 6: small module or reactor companies, or nuclear companies, or geothermal 591 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 6: companies like Fervo, who I know you talked to at 592 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 6: the Deploy twenty four conference, or companies or hyper scalers 593 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 6: that have really wanted to build out solar plus storage 594 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 6: sent to their sites or at least do power purchase 595 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 6: agreements that allow them to power to purchase clean power 596 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 6: for their data centers. So it's going to this new demand, 597 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 6: to your point, is going to be built out. It's 598 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 6: probably going to be built out largely with clean energy. 599 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 6: And you know, and the good news is we can 600 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 6: do this. 601 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 5: We can do this. 602 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 6: I mean, this year alone, we will have added sixty 603 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 6: gigawats thirty Hoover Damsworth of clean power to the US 604 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 6: electric grid. And these data centers, you know, if there's 605 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 6: fifty of them, they may if they're gigawat data centers, 606 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 6: that may be you know, fifty gigawatts. That's you know, 607 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 6: probably the outs the high mark of what they would 608 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 6: be building out in the United States. For sure, that 609 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 6: seems ambitious. But if we're adding sixty gigawats this year alone, 610 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 6: without them bringing their own power, because they're just starting 611 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 6: to cite these facilities, we can do this and it's exciting. 612 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 4: I know. 613 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: We just have like a minute left, So I'm going 614 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 2: to ask you a huge question, and you could truncate 615 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 2: as much as you want. When you came into the office, 616 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: the DIE is largely known in large part for a 617 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 2: nuclear waste storage and you've talked about the dramatic changes 618 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 2: in terms of the mission of deployment and so forth. 619 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 2: For someone coming into running a new organization of any 620 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 2: sort that has to do some major mission change. What's 621 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: been the biggest lesson or surprise to you about what 622 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:19,720 Speaker 2: that takes. 623 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 6: Well, let me just say, I don't know if it's 624 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 6: a surprise, because I heard before I got here that 625 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 6: this was true. But we have the most amazing team 626 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 6: of people at the Department of Energy, the folks who 627 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 6: have been working here for years and the new ones 628 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 6: that we've hired about one thousand new people for this 629 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 6: new mission of deployment that we have. You know, I'm 630 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 6: so proud to be to be leaving to my successor 631 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:53,720 Speaker 6: a department that is full of unbelievable smart professionals. Forty 632 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 6: thousand scientists at our national labs, people who understand both 633 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,760 Speaker 6: communities as well as technologies as well as the market. 634 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 6: It's really it's an amazing place, the Department of Energy. 635 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 6: This has been the best job I have ever had 636 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 6: because of the team and the brilliance of the team here. 637 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 6: So it is I feel wistful leaving, but I am 638 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 6: I'm proud that we're leaving such a great legacy. 639 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 2: Secretary Jennifer Grenholm, thank you so much for coming on 640 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: our books. 641 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 4: You bet, thanks so much, Tracy. 642 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 2: I thought that was a great conversation. Before we go 643 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 2: any further. The energy historian I always talk about in 644 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 2: the beginning, that was a Vaklovsmill, who is a famous 645 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 2: book Energy and Civilization, a history like these are the 646 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 2: big questions of the world. 647 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 3: No, I need to read that. Yeah, that looks really good. Yes, okay, 648 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 3: so a conversation about big questions. I do think to 649 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 3: your point you asked this question, but it is kind 650 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 3: of funny that every four years the US can completely 651 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 3: redefine its major political priorities in this way, and to 652 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 3: some extent, start from scratch. That said, as the Secretary 653 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 3: was pointing out, there are some areas of overlap, so 654 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 3: nuclear and geothermal would be one of them. With geothermal, 655 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 3: I sometimes wonder, like how much Republicans like it just 656 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 3: because it's guys with like giant drills doing like cool stuff. 657 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 2: Well, you know what I was. I was joking about 658 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 2: this with a friend. But if the best thing that 659 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 2: would happen for the geothermal industry, would for its durability, 660 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 2: would be for Democrats to start attacking it and see, 661 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 2: this is just shale trying to reinvent itself, Like that 662 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 2: would be a really good thing if it became really like, 663 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 2: how do you ensure it's uh, you know, get the 664 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: environmentalists to say, oh, this is just the shale bros 665 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 2: trying to maintain, you know, trying to reinvent themselves in 666 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 2: some new clean way. That would probably ensure a lot 667 00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 2: of bipartisan support for it. 668 00:36:58,880 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 6: Yeah. 669 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 3: I think that's a great strategy. Okay, Look, but there 670 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 3: is also there's this tension that the Secretary was getting at, 671 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 3: which is this idea that like, Okay, on the one hand, 672 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 3: maybe the incoming administration. They are not the biggest clean 673 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 3: energy fans, let's just put it that way. But on 674 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 3: the other hand, they are very keen to boost US 675 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 3: domestic manufacturing. They're very keen to compete against places like China, 676 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 3: and if a lot of Chinese manufacturing dominance is coming 677 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 3: from things like evs or solar panels, it seems like 678 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 3: it can be an administrative priority. 679 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 2: Your characterization of the new administration, i'd say is mostly right, 680 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 2: But people forget that Elon is a big solar bro. Yeah, 681 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 2: he's a First of all, he's an EV magnet. 682 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 3: Well, he's got a loan from the loan programs. 683 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 4: He did that too. 684 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 2: But he's also very bullish. He doesn't actually talk about 685 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 2: it very much, and so who knows exactly what that 686 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 2: means in terms of how it translates into policy. He's 687 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 2: talked a lot about how bullish on solar So I 688 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 2: think there's just a lot of questions. And then on 689 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 2: the sort of more nuts and bolts political durability setting aside, 690 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,479 Speaker 2: where the Venn diagram overlaps in terms of priorities. As 691 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 2: the Secretary said, there's just a lot of investments in 692 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 2: red districts or red states, and it'll be a very 693 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 2: interesting question to see how much appetite there is for 694 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 2: reversing some of these things. 695 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. 696 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 3: Absolutely, Shall we leave it there? 697 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:20,439 Speaker 2: Let's leave it there. 698 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the Authoughts podcast. I'm 699 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 3: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway and. 700 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 2: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 701 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 2: You can follow our guest secretary Jennifer Granholmes. 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