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Speaker 1: A podcast playground. Some weeks ago, I took a trip

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Speaker 1: to the great city of Chicago to walk to Saunter

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Speaker 1: to contemplate the world we live in. On the trip,

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Speaker 1: one day turned tonight, some fifteen miles and roughly thirty

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Speaker 1: thousand steps later, I saw a story there was to tell.

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Speaker 1: The story was about a simple act that has saved

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Speaker 1: us and saved us all at various moments, taking a

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Speaker 1: walk on our own or with a companion, furry or human.

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Speaker 1: The act of taking a walk is such a beautiful thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm buzznight, and welcome to the first episode of Taking

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Speaker 1: a Walk, a journey that will take us to many

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Speaker 1: places with many different people. As I got excited about

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Speaker 1: the possibilities, I thought, there's no better place to start

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Speaker 1: the journey than Walden Pond. Let's go talk to the

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Speaker 1: executive director of the Walden Woods Project, Kathy Anderson, and

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Speaker 1: see what she thinks of the idea. It's so nice

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Speaker 1: to see you, Kathy. How's everything going with you today. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a beautiful day here and everything's going great. Buzz,

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Speaker 1: It's great to see you too. So I know for

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Speaker 1: every nonprofit this has been an incredibly difficult time during

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Speaker 1: obviously this pandemic, and I just wanted to get an update.

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Speaker 1: How are things going at the Walden Woods Project. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right that most nonprofits have faced some challenges

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Speaker 1: indeed in terms of you know, fundraising and adapting programs

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Speaker 1: to you know, virtual presentations and whatever. We're no different.

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Speaker 1: But it's everything is going really well. We have a

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Speaker 1: lot of loyal supporters who have stood by us for

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Speaker 1: over thirty years, who continue to support us financially, and

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Speaker 1: I think that we're doing overall, you know, we're doing well.

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Speaker 1: I would say that COVID has actually opened up some

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Speaker 1: opportunities for us. Interestingly, I think if there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of silver linings to COVID for the Walden Woods project,

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Speaker 1: they are number one. People are coming out to reconnect

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Speaker 1: with nature as never before. And you know, you've probably

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Speaker 1: heard reports on TV about this that our national parks

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Speaker 1: are having incredibly high visitation. And I think that the

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Speaker 1: pandemic has caused people to reflect a lot in their

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Speaker 1: own lives, and you know, they are starting to think about,

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Speaker 1: you know, their place in the world and also their

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Speaker 1: place in nature. And so consequently, our trail systems in

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Speaker 1: Walden Woods have had higher use than ever before. It's

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Speaker 1: really gratifying to see people you know, come out and

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Speaker 1: appreciate this beautiful historic landscape and numbers that we've never

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Speaker 1: seen before. So that is one plus. The other is

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Speaker 1: the adaptation of many of our programs to virtual presentations

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Speaker 1: has opened our organization up to a whole new audience

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Speaker 1: across the globe. It's phenomenal how virtual programming attracts people

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Speaker 1: from different countries. And I was just talking with our

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Speaker 1: education director just yesterday and we made a list of

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Speaker 1: all the different countries where people live who have participated

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Speaker 1: in our virtual programs, and I think we're up to

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Speaker 1: about fifteen to twenty different countries. So that is really

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Speaker 1: great because we can cast a wider net about Thorrow's legacy,

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Speaker 1: talking about on a global level his influences in terms

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Speaker 1: of contemporary environmental and social reform issues. So we're engaging

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Speaker 1: a bigger audience while at the same time still continuing

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Speaker 1: to engage our local audience. So I view that as

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Speaker 1: a plus, and we're going to continue to do virtual

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Speaker 1: programming indefinitely for that reason, even when we're able to

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Speaker 1: fully restart our on site programming. That's fantastic news to hear,

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Speaker 1: and it's fantastic to hear how people have sought the

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Speaker 1: tranquility of Walden Woods and Walden Pond during this time

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Speaker 1: and other tremendous places as well. So I know me personally,

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Speaker 1: you know, I live in the backyard here and I'm

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Speaker 1: fortunately very close, so I can, you know, go visit

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Speaker 1: and take in the beauty. But I actually grew different

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Speaker 1: appreciation for places as well because of just being here

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Speaker 1: seven days a week and really seeking the outdoors and

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Speaker 1: the beauty and you know, the ability to just be

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Speaker 1: out there taking it all in and taking a walk.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I can identify with that. Well, we need

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Speaker 1: these places obviously in our lives, and you know, it

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Speaker 1: really brings home the importance of conservation and land protection

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Speaker 1: very very clearly. If we don't protect what we love,

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Speaker 1: then what we love is not going to be there

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Speaker 1: for us in the future and certainly not for future generations.

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Speaker 1: I'm a firm subscriber to the approach of protecting half

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Speaker 1: of our Earth, and we've worked closely with doctor EO.

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Speaker 1: Wilson and his Half Earth project, and you know, we

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Speaker 1: are we are part and parcel of the natural world,

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Speaker 1: and basically by saving nature, We're saving ourselves, and I

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Speaker 1: think people more and more are beginning to recognize that.

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Speaker 1: And certainly climate change has brought home the importance of

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Speaker 1: you know, conservation as well, because the impacts that we

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Speaker 1: are going to uh to see and are already seeing

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Speaker 1: from a changing climate are going to shrink our available

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Speaker 1: open space, and it's going to be even more necessary

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Speaker 1: for us to to take action to set aside, you know,

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Speaker 1: places in the natural world, and what we fail to

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Speaker 1: protect very soon will be gone. I believe that totally

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Speaker 1: about Walden Woods. And you know, we see a lot

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Speaker 1: of pressures of development and population growth and all of

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Speaker 1: those things we're all too familiar with that really squeeze

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Speaker 1: out habitat, impact biodiversity, cause extinctions, and in fact impact

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Speaker 1: climate change in a in a very dramatically negative way,

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Speaker 1: because when we lose forest land, we lose opportunities for

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Speaker 1: carbon sequestration, which are so important. So I think that

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Speaker 1: the COVID crisis has in a lot of ways awakened

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Speaker 1: people to these challenges we face. Totally agree, Kathy, Totally agree.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to I wanted to run something by

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about here. I was on a recent

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Speaker 1: trip in the great city of Chicago, and I know

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Speaker 1: there's you know, many great walking cities, as you know,

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Speaker 1: Boston is won and Chicago and New York, and there's

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Speaker 1: others certainly that are really great places to go and

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Speaker 1: explore and people watch and just taking the beauty of

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Speaker 1: a day and a cityscape, just as there's amazing places

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Speaker 1: such as Walden to do it that are you know,

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Speaker 1: more remote and taking in nature. And while I was

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Speaker 1: on that walk, I thought of this idea for a

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Speaker 1: podcast series called taking a Walk, where you know, I

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Speaker 1: can really shine a light on a great location, a

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Speaker 1: great guest, whether it be a friend, a new friend,

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Speaker 1: you sort of name it, and really in the mindset

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Speaker 1: of how taking a walk and mindfulness is so so critical,

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Speaker 1: especially in this in this day and age. So as

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Speaker 1: I thought about it, I thought, the only place to

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Speaker 1: really start this is the rightful place of Walden for

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Speaker 1: everything that it stands for, and obviously with Henry Day

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Speaker 1: it stands for, it just is just too natural and

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Speaker 1: too special a place and too special to me. So

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Speaker 1: I love the idea of starting the series there. And

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Speaker 1: you have this amazing curator that I've read about and

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Speaker 1: read his work named Jeffrey Kramer. I think it would

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Speaker 1: be fascinating to go take a walk with Jeffrey yet

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Speaker 1: walden Pond. So I don't mean to catch you off

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Speaker 1: guard here, but what do you think? Well, I think

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Speaker 1: that's a terrific idea. I love to walk with Jeff

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Speaker 1: around walden Pond because you know, he is he is

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Speaker 1: so passionate about thorough and the Transcendentalists. As you know,

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Speaker 1: Jeff has edited many of Thurrow's works, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we laughingly tease Jeff and say, oh, you know, any

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Speaker 1: day of Thurrow's life, Jeff will know Thorrow, did he? Uh?

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Speaker 1: He is really really a wealth of knowledge about Henry

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Speaker 1: David Thurrow. So it's a lot of fun too to

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Speaker 1: be in the actual place with Jeff and uh and

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Speaker 1: hear him talk about, uh, talk about Henry's time there.

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Speaker 1: So uh, I think you I think that's first of all,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea, and I think you

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Speaker 1: both really enjoy it. That's great. I uh, I really

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Speaker 1: look forward to doing it, and I'm going to do it,

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Speaker 1: and I really appreciate you, uh you you hearing me

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Speaker 1: out on it, and and I'll keep you posted obviously,

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Speaker 1: And I really wanted to thank you and everybody in

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Speaker 1: your organization, you know, during these these challenging times, you know,

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Speaker 1: Juliet and Jeff and Sarah and others obviously that I

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Speaker 1: don't know who have really, you know, kept the focus

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Speaker 1: of the great work that the Wall and Woods Project does.

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Speaker 1: So as somebody who you know is a great believer

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Speaker 1: in all of your work and their work, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to say thank you for that. Well. I want to

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Speaker 1: thank you, Buzz, as we all do. You have been

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Speaker 1: such a great friend and supporter now for many, many,

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Speaker 1: many years, and just a wonderful, wonderful colleague and friend.

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Speaker 1: So I'm delighted to hear about this new project, and

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Speaker 1: I just think it's going to be fantastic. Thank you, Kevin.

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Speaker 1: On part two of episode one of Taking a Walk,

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Speaker 1: Buzz talks to Jeffrey Kramer, the curator of the Walden

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Speaker 1: Woods Project. Well, Jeff, it's so nice to meet you,

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Speaker 1: and it's so nice to be taking a walk with you.

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Speaker 1: It's my pleasure, Buzz. So in the course of your

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Speaker 1: busy day, how often do you get to take a

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Speaker 1: walk here? Strangely, very rarely. I'm busy in the library

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Speaker 1: with archival work and things like that, and helping with

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Speaker 1: researchers and students. So very rarely do I actually get

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Speaker 1: the time like we're doing now to get a nice

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Speaker 1: walk around the pond. And how did you first end

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Speaker 1: up at the walden Woods Project. I was. I'm a

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Speaker 1: trained librarian, archivist and also an independent thorough scholar. And

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Speaker 1: it was actually a very strange coincidence. I was working

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Speaker 1: for the Boston Public Library for over twenty years and

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Speaker 1: have been looking for something different, and I was working

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Speaker 1: on my first book, thorough related book called Thorough and Freedom,

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Speaker 1: and the editor said I should come out to the

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Speaker 1: walden Witch Project and see somebody here who might give

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Speaker 1: me some lesser known quotations for the book, just as

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Speaker 1: give it some something that nobody else had. And two

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Speaker 1: days before I came out here to get the quotations,

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Speaker 1: the woman who was in charge of rare books in

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Speaker 1: those days came and said, Jeff, you should meet this

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Speaker 1: woman we just hired. She used to be the curator

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Speaker 1: at the Thorough Institute. And so when I came out

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Speaker 1: here and the man handed me a disc with a

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Speaker 1: few quotations on it, I said, do you have an opening?

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Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, you interested. So they had done

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Speaker 1: a nationwide search and didn't find the right candidate. I

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Speaker 1: had been looking to get out of Boston for years,

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Speaker 1: couldn't find the right job. And here I was, a

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Speaker 1: thorough scholar and a trained archivist, walking into their doors

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Speaker 1: saying do you have an opening? And he showed me around.

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Speaker 1: I just absolutely fell in love with not only the library,

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Speaker 1: but what the walden Wood Project represented and what it

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Speaker 1: was trying to do. So sent in a letter invited

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Speaker 1: for an interview, and was coming from my interview. You

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Speaker 1: know how when you really want something, you say something

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Speaker 1: really stupid and kind of blow it. So I was

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Speaker 1: really afraid of that happening. So it was about five

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Speaker 1: minutes away from approaching the waldon which project from my interview,

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Speaker 1: and as you might know, or as your listeners might know,

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Speaker 1: our founder was Don Henley from the Eagles, and so

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Speaker 1: I said, if I hear the Eagles on the radio,

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Speaker 1: this will be my job. And as soon as I

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Speaker 1: said that, Hotel California started on the radio. And as

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Speaker 1: I pulled into the parking lot, we had gravel parking

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Speaker 1: lot in most days you could hear the tires on

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Speaker 1: the gravel and the song Hotel California ended as I

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Speaker 1: came out of the car, so it was just coming

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Speaker 1: out of the car, I knew that was my job.

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Speaker 1: And about a week later I had the offer of goosebumps. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I actually do too. It's amazing. And in a time

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Speaker 1: where you often hear about the fact of in a

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Speaker 1: joy and what people have in their work, you are

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Speaker 1: somebody that I perceive has incredible joy about your work.

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Speaker 1: I do. I just the idea of having a position

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Speaker 1: where you are spending your day talking and working with

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Speaker 1: authors that you love, Thorrow, but also Emerson, Margaret Fuller,

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Speaker 1: the Alcots, all of them. It is a joy. And

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Speaker 1: to get to talk to people about sorrow as part

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Speaker 1: of my work, I mean, who could think of anything better.

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Speaker 1: So when you think of the time that we're in

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Speaker 1: and you think of the importance of mindfulness, and I

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Speaker 1: believe mindfulness and walking certainly go hand in hand, how

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Speaker 1: important do you think it is today and specifically how

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Speaker 1: important you know is Walden around mindfulness? Well, I mean

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Speaker 1: Thorrow is certainly an important author When you think about mindfulness.

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Speaker 1: Back in his day, what he would refer to would

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Speaker 1: be deliberation, the idea of deliberating to think about things.

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Speaker 1: So that's basically the same concept, to be mindful of

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Speaker 1: what you're doing, how you're doing it, how it affects

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Speaker 1: the people around you. So I think it's a very

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Speaker 1: important concept, and I think people often miss that aspect

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Speaker 1: of Thorough they talk about mindfulness. I'm sorry they talked

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Speaker 1: about deliberation, but they don't jump ahead to how we

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Speaker 1: refer to it now as mindfulness and how important those

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Speaker 1: ideas that Thorough was writing about in relation to how

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Speaker 1: we conduct our lives, how much that relates to how

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Speaker 1: we should be living our life today. And when we

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Speaker 1: think also of solitude morning, which has been so much

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Speaker 1: part of you know what's going on around COVID, how

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Speaker 1: do we cherish solitude when we're here and really embrace that. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think part of it is just to be content

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Speaker 1: with who you are and what you offer. So Thorough said,

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Speaker 1: and amazingly I'm very bad at quoting, but something to

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Speaker 1: the effect if I stand by myself, I'm never alone.

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Speaker 1: So the idea that in solitude you are not necessarily alone,

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Speaker 1: and also the idea that you could be in a

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Speaker 1: crowd full of people and be lonely. So where you are,

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Speaker 1: and the number of people around you or not around

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Speaker 1: you does not make much difference in that concept that idea.

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Speaker 1: So for a lot of people, I know, this period

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Speaker 1: of being somewhat isolated, that's been very difficult. As a

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Speaker 1: born introvert, it's been heaven. So it all depends which

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Speaker 1: way you view things. Did Henry David go for walks

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Speaker 1: though with others here? Or was he? Was he? I

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Speaker 1: mean he was obviously a solo act, right right, So

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Speaker 1: he did. People wanted to go on walks with him,

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Speaker 1: friends particularly, He didn't necessarily enjoy that. So if you

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Speaker 1: think about what was Thurrow's I don't want to say job,

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Speaker 1: but what was he did? He studied the world around him,

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Speaker 1: He studied nature, He studied human interaction or human the

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Speaker 1: human condition, and he wanted to think about it. So

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Speaker 1: a walk in the woods or boating on the river,

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Speaker 1: whatever he chose to do for three four hours a

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Speaker 1: day was part of his work. And he would say

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Speaker 1: things like, you know, you would not necessarily watch a

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Speaker 1: doctor do surgery or follow a lawyer into a courthouse.

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Speaker 1: You don't do those things. When a person's working, You

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Speaker 1: let them work. So usually he found that when somebody

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Speaker 1: accompanied him on a walk. It was more of an

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Speaker 1: annoyance than anything else. But he also embraced this community.

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Speaker 1: He did this area and community, yes of special people, right, yes.

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Speaker 1: And he was always a part of his community. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of people tend to think of Thorough as

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Speaker 1: a hermit or somebody who went away from society, but

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Speaker 1: that was never the case. Even when he lived here

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Speaker 1: at Walden Pond, he was going to town almost every

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Speaker 1: day and he'd visit with people, visit with friends and family,

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Speaker 1: gossip with the farmers, get his newspaper from the post office,

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Speaker 1: so he was always part of that. He said at

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Speaker 1: one point that he lived in two worlds, nature and

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Speaker 1: the post office, meaning the natural world, but also the

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Speaker 1: social world, society. And if you think of, for instance,

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Speaker 1: to think of Walden as a pilgrimage for Thorough, the

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Speaker 1: most important thing on any pilgrimage is the idea that

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Speaker 1: you go and you learn and then you share it.

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Speaker 1: You come back and you share it. So Thorow was

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Speaker 1: very clear that he wanted to help, as he said

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Speaker 1: in Walden Wake his neighbors up, so he never went

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Speaker 1: away from society. Society is always integral to who he

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Speaker 1: was and how he conducted himself in the world. How

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Speaker 1: about entertainment, Was there a sense of entertainment in the community,

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Speaker 1: you know music as an example, Well, I mean Thorough

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Speaker 1: liked to play his flute, so I mean he made

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Speaker 1: his own music. In fact, there are he talks about

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Speaker 1: in his journal about going out into the pond and

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Speaker 1: playing his flute and playing with the echoes of the flute.

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Speaker 1: So I like to think of throw as being one

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Speaker 1: of the early jazz musicians out here, just improvising totally.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, there would be entertainment. Entertainment in those days

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Speaker 1: would be often going to a lecture, so some forms

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Speaker 1: of adult education and lecturing, but also musical performances, the

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Speaker 1: theatrical performances, things like that. Thorough for him, it would

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Speaker 1: mostly going to lectures. Do you think in light of

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Speaker 1: the times that there's a greater appreciation for the beauty

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Speaker 1: of Walden and places like it? So when people are,

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Speaker 1: you know, looking to get outdoors and take a walk,

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Speaker 1: that they find or rediscover places such as this, I

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Speaker 1: think so, I mean, certainly during the pandemic, the number

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Speaker 1: of people natural places such as Walden or a national

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Speaker 1: park or any kind of outdoor space, a rail trail,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. There are a lot of people taking

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Speaker 1: advantage of that and trying to find something in this

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Speaker 1: natural world of ours, which I think is such a

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Speaker 1: great byproduct of what's going on, absolutely, because if we

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Speaker 1: forget about the beauty of places such as this, then

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Speaker 1: terrible things can happen. Yes, our connection to the natural

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Speaker 1: world helps us be better people, helps us live our

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Speaker 1: way in a more positive way in the world. And

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Speaker 1: so someone like thorough who said he was part and

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Speaker 1: parcel of nature, he was a natural creature, did not

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Speaker 1: set himself apart as something different from nature. So he

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Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily different from the fish in the pond or

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Speaker 1: the tea or whatever. He was part of that world.

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Speaker 1: So if you think about being part of something, it's

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Speaker 1: harder to destroy it. You don't want to cause harm

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Speaker 1: if you're part of something. It's only when something is foreign,

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Speaker 1: something's different, something is something you can't relate to that

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Speaker 1: we feel we can do something that is not necessarily

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Speaker 1: as beneficial. So if you think about how we treated

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Speaker 1: the natural world as something different from us, it's why

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Speaker 1: we destroy it. We can use it, we can abuse it,

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Speaker 1: we can not take care of it. But once you

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Speaker 1: are part of that world and you realize you're interconnectedness

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Speaker 1: with it, then you're going to do your most to

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Speaker 1: protect it and help it. What do you think he

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Speaker 1: would have thought of the discussions on climate change of today.

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Speaker 1: That is actually a hard question because for Thorough in

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Speaker 1: his day, and because some of the things that we

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Speaker 1: are experiencing your things, he could never ever have anticipated

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Speaker 1: or thought of. But for Thorough, the world universe took

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Speaker 1: care of itself, so things were constantly in flux, things

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Speaker 1: were constantly changing, so that if you let it alone,

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Speaker 1: Thorough believed, then it would eventually repair itself, or you'd

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Speaker 1: have something different and I say better or not so worse,

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Speaker 1: but just something different. So if he were here in

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Speaker 1: his mindset for the mid nineteenth century looking at climate change,

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Speaker 1: he might say, just step back, it'll take care of itself. Now.

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Speaker 1: For somebody like Thorough, that also meant that the natural

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Speaker 1: course of things could actually eradicate human beings. And that

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Speaker 1: was also that there are part of the natural course

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Speaker 1: of things. So he talked about you know that for

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Speaker 1: any group or thing that is being destroyed, it is

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Speaker 1: bad for that group or thing, but that other things

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Speaker 1: will take its place. So for Thorough, I think he

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Speaker 1: would actually look at the world as if it changed

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Speaker 1: to a point where human beings could no longer live

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Speaker 1: on this planet. That would be just one part of

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Speaker 1: the cycle that has changed and is gone, but other

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Speaker 1: things would probably carry on. Not a very human centric position. Jeffrey,

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Speaker 1: I really I can't thank you enough for taking a

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Speaker 1: walk here with me. So as we close, what things

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Speaker 1: would you like the audience to know about the great

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Speaker 1: work that the Walden Woods Project is doing that you

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Speaker 1: want people to know about? Well, mostly that we have

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Speaker 1: multiple missions that sort of cross over and work together.

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Speaker 1: But not only are we working to preserve the land

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Speaker 1: associated with Henry David Thorrow, but also that we have

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Speaker 1: our education departments who are trying to help people usual

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Speaker 1: students learn about Thorough and try to separate some of

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Speaker 1: the myths that they are always hearing. And then of

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Speaker 1: course we have the research library where I work, where

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Speaker 1: again we're helping people all the time come to a

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Speaker 1: better understanding of who Henry David Thornrow actually was and

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Speaker 1: what he actually was writing about. Thank you, Jeffrey. My

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Speaker 1: pleasure was taking a walk with Buzznight, available on podbeat

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Speaker 1: and in the iTunes podcast Store,