WEBVTT - What Were the BONE WARS? 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.560 Hey, everybody, it's Josh and Chuck and we're coming to 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:05.600 see you guys, some of you some cities. Just listen up. 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.800 That's right, because you know, we just did Chicago and 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.479 Toronto and it went great, and I think our topic 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:14.800 ofp went really well. Did everyone loved hearing about me? 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:17.920 That's right. So if you're in Boston, you can come 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:22.200 see us in August twenty nine at the Wilbur Portland, Maine, Maine, 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:24.640 at the State Theater on August thirty. If I can't wait, 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:26.680 I'm gonna Labor Day weekend. I'm gonna stay the whole weekend. 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.160 I'll be all over Maine. That's great, man. Where else, 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.560 We're gonna be in Orlando on October nine, and then 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:35.279 on October t we're going to be in New Orleans, Man. 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:37.520 And then later on that month we're doing a three 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:42.199 night stand at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn. That's right. Is 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.159 sold out. You can still get tickets for the and 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:47.320 we will see you then. Check it out at s 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.560 y s K live dot com. Welcome to Stuff you 0:00:51.560 --> 0:01:00.720 should Know, a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.440 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.000 Charles to Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there and 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:14.320 raw that was a limp limp. Laugh, Chuck, I've gotten 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:18.240 way better laughs out of either. Uh. Are you a 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.200 dinosaur A little bit? I got a little dinosaur in me, 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.560 a little Neander Tall in me. I learned from twenty 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:31.120 three and me. Um. But despite my dinosaur heritage, I 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:33.280 was never a big time into dinosaurs as a kid. 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:39.640 Were you not? Like it's astounding, Chuck, how similar we 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.880 were as children. Ums. I didn't smoke when I was 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.720 seven years old fourteen. I was the right bold asia 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:52.440 before started smoking. Um. So it wasn't like, I don't 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:53.960 know if it was the same with you. It's not 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:58.480 like I had anything against dinosaurs or kids who like dinosaurs. 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:00.600 I thought they were kind of cool and I had 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.400 some like like figurines here there, But it wasn't anything 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.559 like I was nerdy about in any way, shape or form. Yeah, 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.160 And I mean I think there was there's a certain 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:14.840 movie that really really got kids into dinosaurs, The Lost 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:20.360 World No Ferris Putler's Day Off. Uh, And that movie 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.960 came out you know when I was older. Yeah. Here, 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:25.120 I think I wasn't even remember what year that was. 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.400 I feel like I was in college, though I want 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.839 to say it was like ninety two to ninety four, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:32.960 one of those years. That's what I would guess. But 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:36.160 kids these days are and it's not just my kid, 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.960 but I see lots of kids in her age group 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.960 that are obsessed with dinosaurs. Yeah, and I think that's cool, Like, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:45.519 what a cool thing to be obsessed with that. It 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:48.920 teaches you so much stuff you know about the deep past, 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:55.120 about evolution, um, about you know, walking lizard, bird creatures. 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:57.760 You know, there's a lot, there's a lot to learn from, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.400 like being interested in dinosaurs. That's very cool thing to 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:05.359 be interested in. About death and extinction, sure, rotting, fossilization, 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:11.000 all the good stuff, right, Um, But the whole interest, 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:13.760 including the interest that was around when we were kids 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.280 that just kind of passed us by, but definitely, you know, 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.560 the interest in dinosaurs that gave rise to the idea 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.880 of Michael Krecht and even writing Jurassic Park and then 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.959 Steven Spielberg even making it into a movie. That interest 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.320 in dinosaurs in America you can actually trace back to 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.680 almost a um a specific winter in a specific place 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.200 in the nineteenth century. In the winter of eighteen seventy 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:42.520 seven in particular, and it was the result of a vicious, 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:50.440 mean spirited, petty rivalry between two paleontologists that really kind 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.400 of sparked America's interest in dinosaurs. Yeah, I mean it 0:03:54.400 --> 0:04:00.720 feels very Tesla. Uh who's the other guy? What was 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:05.120 his name? Marconi? Maybe your Ferris Bueller. Yeah, that it's 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.760 really reminded me of the Tesla Ferris Bueller rivalry. Ferris 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.480 won that one fare in the Current Wars, which, by 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.400 the way, that movies coming out. Have you seen the trailer? 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.960 You know? Who plays who? You know? I can't remember now, 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:20.440 but I saw it the other day and it looks 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.000 it looks pretty good. Nicholas Cage plays both roles. O, God, 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.560 how great would that be? It would be pretty great? 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:32.560 Ce DC just like that's two hours right there. Um, 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.159 there's actually going to be a movie, or there was 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:36.839 going to be a movie about what we're about to 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:38.880 talk about today. Did you know that now? I kind 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.800 of wondered though. Yeah, it was scheduled for production. Steve 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:48.320 Carrell was going to play Cope, Oh and James Gandelfini 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.760 was gonna play Marsh and James Gandolfini died unexpectedly and 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.680 the production just got kai boshed. And they also found 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.360 out that the title The Bone Wars had already been 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:03.920 taken by a adult pornography. Yep, we're so on the 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:09.400 same page. We totally children no interest in Jurassic Park 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.840 or any dinosaurs, but we think the names of porno 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:17.160 films is hilarious. That's our our big interest. So I 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.120 thought it was funny, you know. We we commissioned this 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.720 piece for for the Grabster, and he's a big dinosaur guy, 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:25.880 and he was somewhat shamed. He was like, I just 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:27.280 and he said it two or three times, like I 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.800 can't believe I didn't know about these guys. Yeah, We're like, 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.000 it's okay, grab sir, It's all right. Yeah. But so 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.279 I feel like he learned something along the way. UM. 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:36.680 And he starts out, and I think it's a good 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:38.440 thing for us to talk a little bit about just 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:44.320 um before these dudes, how paleot paleontology came about um 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.200 and that had you know, I think since people just 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:51.520 started stumbling upon bones, even by accident, before it was 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.160 even a discipline. People were like, oh man, look at 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:56.839 that thing. I'm gonna pick that up and take it 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.880 with me, right. I think they used to get classified 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:05.120 also is mythological creatures or dead gods or something like that. Um. 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:11.760 But the first documented paleontological expedition in North America was 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.159 carried out by none other than Lewis and Clark. Did 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:17.120 you know that before? Did we mention that in the episode? 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:19.520 Do you think? I don't know, but I did know 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.279 at some point from somewhere, maybe it was the the 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.159 kin Burns Peace, but that you know one of the 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.080 things they did, I mean they were they were logging everything, 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:33.120 including bone deposits. But they spent like a week um 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:37.440 around salt lick flats or salt like gully or salt 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:41.559 like something, um where there was a big old salt 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:45.760 like that used to attract dinosaurs and um pli sustine 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:51.920 mammals um from two different periods. Everybody puts your emails away, um, 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.840 and the bones that would collect there were really significant. 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:56.880 So they spent a week like excavating there. But that 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.359 was the first one. But that was even before the 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.520 world the word paleontology was coined. Yeah, that was in 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:09.000 eighteen twenty two in the French journal de physique and Um. 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.040 There were a couple of people that proceeded Uh and 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.760 in in fact um, one of whom went on to 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.240 be a sort of a mentor to Cope. But I 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.120 got named Edward Hitchcock and another guy named Joseph. Is 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.640 it Lighty or Leady Um? I think Lighty is what 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.480 I've seen the most. Yeah, l I d y Um 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.280 and he's the one that went on to to work 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.720 with Cope later on. But just put a pin in this. 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:36.880 But in eighteen fifty eight, I'm pretty important find basically 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:41.120 the only big dinosaur find on the East Coast where 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:45.720 the fossil live bones of a herbivore name Hadrosaurus Folky 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.480 in New Jersey. And it was a big deal because 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:51.640 it was on the East Coast and this is where 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:53.560 the stuff was going on in time and you get 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.120 a lot of footprints on the East Coast, but not 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:57.120 a lot of finds like this. Yeah, it was an 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.720 enormous fine and Um Lighty Uh was called in to 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.960 excavate it and put it together because he was America's 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:10.040 first vertebrate paleontologists. He was the first guy and was 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.600 really prolific and really good at what he did. Um, 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.480 and like you said, would eventually become a mentor to 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.760 one of the guys we should probably introduce now, because 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.119 Lighty was working in I think his first real burst 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.320 of energy came in the eighteen fifties, early eighteen fifties, 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:33.280 and Um, within about fifteen maybe twenty years, there were 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.520 a pair of guys who would come along and just 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:40.040 completely changed the field of paleontology. It started out very normally, 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.920 just another scientific field, very exciting, lots of discoveries to 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.240 be made. I mean, that's the point of all this, right, 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.880 is that, like if you have a brand new scientific field, 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.600 everything you come across is worth writing about describing. You 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.600 get to name everything. So it was a really exciting, 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.800 like dynamic time for the field of paleontology. But but 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:05.360 a field of science is the character of it is 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.520 based on its earliest practitioners. And Lighty Um was a 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:14.280 very steady, normal scientist who was very reliable, so he 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.920 kind of set paleontology up like that. But then along 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.440 came a couple of guys who would form this rivalry 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.040 and they would change all of that. Um No, I 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.840 don't think necessarily to this day, but there was a 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.440 a lot of sniping that used to go on in 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.760 the field of paleontology. That that was because of the 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.280 tone that these guys set. Yeah, and both of them 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.719 would end up basically bankrupt at the end of each 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.520 of their lives because of all their efforts to outdo 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.480 and undermine one another's work. Um, so we're talking about 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:50.320 two dudes. Uh, one is Marsh and one is Cope 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:56.360 on off. Neil. I've never heard that name before. I 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.959 I think his parents made it up. Maybe O T 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:02.200 H N I E I'll auth. Neil Charles March born 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:07.120 in October one in New York and he was Um. 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:08.920 They didn't have a lot of money in his family. 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.080 They were farmers. Um, he would have been a farmer, 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.319 but he had and this kind of really changed his life. 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.840 He had a very rich uncle named George Peabody, UM, 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.080 who would go on to really kind of fund his 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.040 education in early parts of his career later on. Yeah, 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.480 he just plucked him out of the farm field basically 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:29.960 and said, And I have no idea why he did this, 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:31.920 but he said you I I like the look of 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.599 you and your brain, nephew, and you're gonna go to 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:37.319 smart would be my guess. Was that it? Okay, Well, 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.280 I don't know how he demonstrated it, I guess, is 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.800 what I'm trying to say, Like, how did his uncle say, yes, 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.520 you're the one. You know, smarts are always evident. Okay, 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:47.560 Well he plucked him out, sent him to boring school, 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:49.760 then sent him to Yale, and eventually sent him off 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:54.559 to grad school in Germany. So um, Marsh. We're just 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.280 gonna call him Marsh because his name is just too 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:00.880 ugly and horrible to say out loud. Um. He was 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.880 basically set. He was fine. He had a benefactor in 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:09.440 his extraordinarily wealthy um philanthropist uncle. Yeah. So Cope. On 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:14.080 the other hand, Um similarly had money, but his was 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.160 like in his family. He wasn't like poor with a 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.160 rich uncle. He had a wealthy family, very prominent family 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:23.080 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He was born in July eight forty, 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.760 and he went to you know all the Uh, I 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:28.880 was gonna say trappings, but I guess all the benefits 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:32.200 of being born into money. He went to very nice, 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:36.959 expensive boarding school. Uh, and that wasn't so much up 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.160 his alley. So he dropped out when he was sixteen, 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:44.560 and uh, because he had a rich rich dad. Um, 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.360 it allowed him a lot of opportunities that other people 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.400 wouldn't have, including you know, going to college later on, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.640 even though he never graduated high school. Yeah, well so 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.920 there so it was definitely in part because of his dad. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.120 But also this was a time and like say the 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.920 eighteen fifties, it was lax. But also like even if 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.440 you wanted to go on and become like a um, 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.640 get a PhD, American universities weren't you know, they didn't 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:17.520 offer many PhD programs in sciences, right, So there was 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:22.240 a there was a whole um something called gentleman naturalists 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:27.520 who were amateur self taught um scientists who just just 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:29.760 did the work. They knew what they were doing, they 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:31.720 figured it out as they went along, and they actually 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.760 developed some of these fields. And so he kind of 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.320 subscribed to that school where um, that old school of 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.240 gentleman naturalists where there was you could you could go 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.600 figure it out yourself without needing to go through the university. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.920 But he did that just on the cusp like our 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.880 parents generation was just on the cusp of the last 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.680 group who could get away without knowing how to use email. 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.720 He was like part of that last generation that could 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.440 become a scientist with out having to go through formal 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.880 training at a university. Right, Like if you have a 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.240 tweed suit with a stiff color and a pencil and 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.720 a pad, you can and lots of time on your hands. Yeah, 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.160 and that's that's I mean. To to Cope's credit, I 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.439 think that that really kind of demonstrates like he's like, no, 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.520 I'm going to go learn from experience. And he did 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.240 keep knocking it, but he did get entree into places 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.720 like the University of Pennsylvania or the Academy of Natural 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.760 Sciences in Philadelphia because of his family's context. But I 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.600 get the impression that he worked his way uh into 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.320 those places. Once he got in, he he didn't just low. 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.280 He learned what he needed to learn. Yeah. I mean, 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.400 because if there's one thing we're gonna learn about Cope 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.400 here over the next thirty minutes or so, is he 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.920 worked hard? Yes, he's my pick of the bone wars. 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:50.840 He's who I put my money behind. Is your guy? Yep? Interesting? 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.480 Did we ever say his name Edward Drinker Cope? Yeah, 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.600 that's a weird middle name. It is. He was a drinker, literally, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.439 he really was. He was. Also, he was also a 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:06.840 Quaker and a pacifist too, that's right. So at college 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.120 at University of Pennsylvania, that's where he met Joseph Lytey. 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.160 He was one of his professors. So that just you know, 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.280 kind of kick started their relationship. Um. During the Civil War, 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.840 he went to Europe um the American Civil War because 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.240 he didn't want to be you know, he didn't want 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:24.480 to go to war. He didn't want to go fight. 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:26.640 He want to go dig up bones. Yeah, and he 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.640 was a Quaker pacifist too, that's right. So he went 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.200 to Germany, uh In in eighteen sixty three, he met 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.920 marsh and they really liked each other at first. They 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.800 had a lot in common, obviously, and I get the 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:42.600 feeling that in Germany in eighteen sixty three there were 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:44.960 probably not a ton of Americans who were super interested 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.560 in dinosaur hunting, and so they they locked up, became 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.640 really good pals. Uh. They came back to the US 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.920 after the Civil War and friends, and we're both like, 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.360 all right, we're gonna go do our thing independently, but 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.720 we're gonna keep touch. We're gonna swap info early on here. 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.440 And it was all very friendly at first, right, and 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.360 I think you can make a pretty good case that 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.320 they probably cut their own palms and clasped hands and 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.320 became blood brother brothers during the German meeting. Okay, so 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:16.520 that's what we're going with, because they really did like 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.600 each other, um, and things were going along just fine too, 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:26.200 kindred spirits with a common interest in paleontology, um. And 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.160 they may have continued on that way, although I sincerely 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.000 doubt that that's the case, um, which means I just 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.840 undermine my own statement. But Um, after the Civil War 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.040 they both went back to the United States to start careers, 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.280 their own careers, and marsh um or Cope, I'm sorry. 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:48.440 He had connected with Joseph Lydy, who he had met 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.560 through the University of Pennsylvania and the Academy of Natural Sciences. 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.760 They worked together there, and so he went off with 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.880 Ldy to um study bones that were found at hadden 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.480 Field in New Jersey. Were light You found that first skeleton, right, 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.200 And so being friends with Mars, she naturally Cope naturally 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.480 extended an invitation. Hey, come visit me in the field. 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.280 You got to see this place. It's amazing. There's fossils everywhere. 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.440 You're gonna love it. And so Marsh came out for 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.200 a visit and this was this is mark one in 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.480 the turning point of their relationship. There were two distinct 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.920 marks um, each of them point to one is the 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.920 the end of their friendship. This was the the end 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:30.600 of their friendship starting with Cope. That's right. So both 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.800 of these guys had uh privilege, like we've been talking about. Um. 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.600 For Marsha's part, his uncle, his rich uncle, donated a 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.320 hundred and fifty grand to Yale basically to sort of 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.920 get March a job. They created the Peabody Museum of 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.200 Natural History, and then they were like, well, hey, we 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:53.800 need a professor to chair this new department, and so 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.640 why not your nephew. And they said, Bully, that's a 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.040 great idea. So based it cost a hundred and fifty 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.920 grand to get Marsh Uh this this job as the 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:08.040 chair of Department of Paleontology at this new Peabody Museum 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.680 at Yale University, right, And so they said, yes, Um, 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.719 we want to make you the first professor of paleontology 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.760 in America. And Marsh said, yes, that's a great idea. 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.120 I like where you're going, Yale. I'm going to spend 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.800 a lot of time here, I can tell. So that's 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:28.040 that's Marsh setting off on his little trajectory, basically ensconcing 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:33.359 himself in Yale Cope. Um, remember he was basically a 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.160 high school dropout and he had to kind of make 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:40.120 his own way. Um. He had trouble at first finding 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:44.200 a position until he struck upon a place called Haverford 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.000 College and he got a position as a professor of 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:51.000 zoology there. Um, And they said, well, you're a high 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.640 school dropout, so we'll just give you an honorary Masters 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:57.760 of Arts degree. Being now you're a professor. It's pretty 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.000 working out for both of these guys. Yeah, although Cope 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.520 didn't really like have her for that much. Um, he 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:09.200 ends up quitting. Um. And it actually kind of its 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:12.800 kind of describes his personality a little bit that that 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:17.200 incident that he would get a good job, um, having 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:22.000 kind of been carried into that position, and then says 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.480 this job is bs, I'm quitting that he was apparently 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:29.320 prone to kind of a quick temper here there. Yeah, 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:31.199 I mean it's it does make the point. It's kind 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:33.800 of hard to piece together a personality from someone way 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:38.760 back then, but by most accounts, Cope was a bit mercurial, Um, 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:42.880 a little more outgoing. Marsh was a little quieter and 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.960 kind of known as a bit of a flake. Uh. 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.040 You know, but considering their backgrounds, it sort of makes 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.560 sense where they ended up, Um Marsh, you know that 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.200 they went about their work in very different ways. Marsh 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.360 didn't publish his first paper until he was thirty years old. Um, 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.919 he was a lifelong bachelor. Cope married when he was 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.040 twenty five. And Cope, you know, even the way they 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:10.200 wrote co wrote these very sort of flowery um descriptions 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.399 of things. Well, Marsh was much more sort of rigid 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.119 and sort of dry and scientific. Yeah, Like if you 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.520 if you read Cope stuff, he's trying to like set 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.080 the scene for you. You know, there's one paper where 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.320 he was describing terrod actyls, and like it's a scientific paper, 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:28.040 so all you have to do is describe the bones 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.639 and the measurements and extrapolate and that kind of stuff. 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.120 But he's like painting the picture of what it must 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.640 have been like on a cliff side by the ocean 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.520 as a troop of these things were dangling by their claws. 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.000 You know. Yeah, it's super cool. It would definitely transport 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.160 the reader there, and it was a little extra doll 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.439 above something that that you didn't have to put on. 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.480 But Cope definitely did put on. Which is surprising that 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.159 he put anything extra into his work because he published 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.040 at an extraordinary pace, so much so that Marsh in 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.520 particular was like, this man is obviously fraudulent. Nobody can 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.919 publish this much. Yeah, for sure, And we'll touch on 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.120 that a bit later. Um, the big difference in their 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.800 earlier careers was when when it came to religion. Um, 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.040 Like you said earlier, Cope was a Quaker and was 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.760 a religious man. Marsh was not. He was not very 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.960 into religion, and he was fully down with evolution and 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:26.200 natural selection in Darwin, whereas Cope kind of had them 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:30.800 make it all fit within his religious beliefs. So it's 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.240 not like he outright like called Darwin a fraud or 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.040 anything like that, but he worked in like the actions 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.800 of God into his theories and sort of make it 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.879 made it all work according to his you know, religious beliefs, 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:49.080 which is I mean back then a little a little 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.080 bit different, but even back then for a scientist, sort 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.760 of an odd thing, yeah for sure. But he he 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.840 he tried to rectify science and his religious belief, and 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:01.440 the way that a lot of people did that back 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.520 then was to subscribe to neo Lamarckism, which is this 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:08.919 idea that um changes in a population take place on 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:11.800 the individual level. Like an example I saw was if 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:15.479 you're a blacksmith and you UM use your arm a 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:19.120 bunch to hammer, you're gonna get a big old bulky arm. Right. Well, 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.760 when you have kids, you're gonna pass that bulky arm 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:23.960 that you developed in your lifetime off to them. And 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.240 that's how evolution happens. And it's much more directed by 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:31.199 God than what Darwin was saying, which is you're just 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.920 born with a random mutation, and if that mutation happens 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.080 to make it more likely for you to to survive 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:41.080 to pass along your genes, then that mutation will get 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.560 selected by nature, which basically has nothing to do with God. 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.680 So there was a real like struggle for Cope throughout 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:51.480 his lifetime um rectifying the two, especially considering Chuck that 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:55.640 the body of work that he produced really helped prove 0:21:55.760 --> 0:22:00.000 Darwin's point more than anything. Yeah, Um, when it comes 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:02.360 still like where things went wrong because they were still 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:06.359 buddies up until this point, Uh, it seemingly looks like 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.960 Marsh drew first blood. UM we mentioned that hadn't field 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:14.040 dig earlier. So it's UM eight sixty eight. Cope has 0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:17.680 left his job at Haversford. UM. He's not very happy there, 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:20.399 so he leaves. He's really kind of feed on the 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:24.400 ground doing the work UM publishing papers which will see 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:28.719 later at an alarming rate, and working with Lightie, who 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:32.320 we talked about. And he invited Marsh because their buddies, 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:34.640 and he was like, dude, you gotta come check this out. 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.760 We found a legit dinosaur fossil on the east coast. 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:41.479 Marsh was like, great, I'll go check it out. He 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.320 loves what he sees and says this is wonderful, friend, 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:47.760 you're doing such great work here. Then he sneaks back 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:53.320 later on by himself and bribes the workers there, Copes 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:56.199 workers and Lighties workers and says, hey, man, if you 0:22:56.240 --> 0:23:00.000 find any more good specimens, send them to this address, 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:02.920 and here's some a little dough for your effort. Can 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.680