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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's Josh and Chuck and we're coming to

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Speaker 1: see you guys, some of you some cities. Just listen up.

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Speaker 1: That's right, because you know, we just did Chicago and

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Speaker 1: Toronto and it went great, and I think our topic

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Speaker 1: ofp went really well. Did everyone loved hearing about me?

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Speaker 1: That's right. So if you're in Boston, you can come

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Speaker 1: see us in August twenty nine at the Wilbur Portland, Maine, Maine,

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Speaker 1: at the State Theater on August thirty. If I can't wait,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna Labor Day weekend. I'm gonna stay the whole weekend.

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Speaker 1: I'll be all over Maine. That's great, man. Where else,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna be in Orlando on October nine, and then

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Speaker 1: on October t we're going to be in New Orleans, Man.

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Speaker 1: And then later on that month we're doing a three

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Speaker 1: night stand at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn. That's right. Is

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Speaker 1: sold out. You can still get tickets for the and

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Speaker 1: we will see you then. Check it out at s

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Speaker 1: y s K live dot com. Welcome to Stuff you

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Speaker 1: should Know, a production of My Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's

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Speaker 1: Charles to Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there and

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Speaker 1: raw that was a limp limp. Laugh, Chuck, I've gotten

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Speaker 1: way better laughs out of either. Uh. Are you a

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Speaker 1: dinosaur A little bit? I got a little dinosaur in me,

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Speaker 1: a little Neander Tall in me. I learned from twenty

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Speaker 1: three and me. Um. But despite my dinosaur heritage, I

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Speaker 1: was never a big time into dinosaurs as a kid.

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Speaker 1: Were you not? Like it's astounding, Chuck, how similar we

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Speaker 1: were as children. Ums. I didn't smoke when I was

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Speaker 1: seven years old fourteen. I was the right bold asia

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Speaker 1: before started smoking. Um. So it wasn't like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it was the same with you. It's not

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Speaker 1: like I had anything against dinosaurs or kids who like dinosaurs.

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Speaker 1: I thought they were kind of cool and I had

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Speaker 1: some like like figurines here there, But it wasn't anything

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Speaker 1: like I was nerdy about in any way, shape or form. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I mean I think there was there's a certain

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Speaker 1: movie that really really got kids into dinosaurs, The Lost

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Speaker 1: World No Ferris Putler's Day Off. Uh, And that movie

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Speaker 1: came out you know when I was older. Yeah. Here,

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Speaker 1: I think I wasn't even remember what year that was.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I was in college, though I want

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Speaker 1: to say it was like ninety two to ninety four,

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Speaker 1: one of those years. That's what I would guess. But

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Speaker 1: kids these days are and it's not just my kid,

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Speaker 1: but I see lots of kids in her age group

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Speaker 1: that are obsessed with dinosaurs. Yeah, and I think that's cool, Like,

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Speaker 1: what a cool thing to be obsessed with that. It

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Speaker 1: teaches you so much stuff you know about the deep past,

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Speaker 1: about evolution, um, about you know, walking lizard, bird creatures.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot, there's a lot to learn from,

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Speaker 1: like being interested in dinosaurs. That's very cool thing to

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Speaker 1: be interested in. About death and extinction, sure, rotting, fossilization,

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Speaker 1: all the good stuff, right, Um, But the whole interest,

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Speaker 1: including the interest that was around when we were kids

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Speaker 1: that just kind of passed us by, but definitely, you know,

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Speaker 1: the interest in dinosaurs that gave rise to the idea

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Speaker 1: of Michael Krecht and even writing Jurassic Park and then

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Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg even making it into a movie. That interest

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Speaker 1: in dinosaurs in America you can actually trace back to

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Speaker 1: almost a um a specific winter in a specific place

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Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century. In the winter of eighteen seventy

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Speaker 1: seven in particular, and it was the result of a vicious,

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Speaker 1: mean spirited, petty rivalry between two paleontologists that really kind

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Speaker 1: of sparked America's interest in dinosaurs. Yeah, I mean it

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Speaker 1: feels very Tesla. Uh who's the other guy? What was

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Speaker 1: his name? Marconi? Maybe your Ferris Bueller. Yeah, that it's

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Speaker 1: really reminded me of the Tesla Ferris Bueller rivalry. Ferris

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Speaker 1: won that one fare in the Current Wars, which, by

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Speaker 1: the way, that movies coming out. Have you seen the trailer?

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Speaker 1: You know? Who plays who? You know? I can't remember now,

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Speaker 1: but I saw it the other day and it looks

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Speaker 1: it looks pretty good. Nicholas Cage plays both roles. O, God,

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Speaker 1: how great would that be? It would be pretty great?

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Speaker 1: Ce DC just like that's two hours right there. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's actually going to be a movie, or there was

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Speaker 1: going to be a movie about what we're about to

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Speaker 1: talk about today. Did you know that now? I kind

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Speaker 1: of wondered though. Yeah, it was scheduled for production. Steve

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Speaker 1: Carrell was going to play Cope, Oh and James Gandelfini

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Speaker 1: was gonna play Marsh and James Gandolfini died unexpectedly and

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Speaker 1: the production just got kai boshed. And they also found

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Speaker 1: out that the title The Bone Wars had already been

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Speaker 1: taken by a adult pornography. Yep, we're so on the

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Speaker 1: same page. We totally children no interest in Jurassic Park

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Speaker 1: or any dinosaurs, but we think the names of porno

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Speaker 1: films is hilarious. That's our our big interest. So I

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Speaker 1: thought it was funny, you know. We we commissioned this

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Speaker 1: piece for for the Grabster, and he's a big dinosaur guy,

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Speaker 1: and he was somewhat shamed. He was like, I just

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Speaker 1: and he said it two or three times, like I

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Speaker 1: can't believe I didn't know about these guys. Yeah, We're like,

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Speaker 1: it's okay, grab sir, It's all right. Yeah. But so

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Speaker 1: I feel like he learned something along the way. UM.

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Speaker 1: And he starts out, and I think it's a good

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Speaker 1: thing for us to talk a little bit about just

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Speaker 1: um before these dudes, how paleot paleontology came about um

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Speaker 1: and that had you know, I think since people just

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Speaker 1: started stumbling upon bones, even by accident, before it was

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Speaker 1: even a discipline. People were like, oh man, look at

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Speaker 1: that thing. I'm gonna pick that up and take it

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Speaker 1: with me, right. I think they used to get classified

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Speaker 1: also is mythological creatures or dead gods or something like that. Um.

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Speaker 1: But the first documented paleontological expedition in North America was

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Speaker 1: carried out by none other than Lewis and Clark. Did

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Speaker 1: you know that before? Did we mention that in the episode?

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Speaker 1: Do you think? I don't know, but I did know

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Speaker 1: at some point from somewhere, maybe it was the the

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Speaker 1: kin Burns Peace, but that you know one of the

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Speaker 1: things they did, I mean they were they were logging everything,

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Speaker 1: including bone deposits. But they spent like a week um

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Speaker 1: around salt lick flats or salt like gully or salt

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Speaker 1: like something, um where there was a big old salt

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Speaker 1: like that used to attract dinosaurs and um pli sustine

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Speaker 1: mammals um from two different periods. Everybody puts your emails away, um,

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Speaker 1: and the bones that would collect there were really significant.

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Speaker 1: So they spent a week like excavating there. But that

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Speaker 1: was the first one. But that was even before the

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Speaker 1: world the word paleontology was coined. Yeah, that was in

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Speaker 1: eighteen twenty two in the French journal de physique and Um.

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Speaker 1: There were a couple of people that proceeded Uh and

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Speaker 1: in in fact um, one of whom went on to

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Speaker 1: be a sort of a mentor to Cope. But I

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Speaker 1: got named Edward Hitchcock and another guy named Joseph. Is

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Speaker 1: it Lighty or Leady Um? I think Lighty is what

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Speaker 1: I've seen the most. Yeah, l I d y Um

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Speaker 1: and he's the one that went on to to work

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Speaker 1: with Cope later on. But just put a pin in this.

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Speaker 1: But in eighteen fifty eight, I'm pretty important find basically

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Speaker 1: the only big dinosaur find on the East Coast where

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Speaker 1: the fossil live bones of a herbivore name Hadrosaurus Folky

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Speaker 1: in New Jersey. And it was a big deal because

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Speaker 1: it was on the East Coast and this is where

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Speaker 1: the stuff was going on in time and you get

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Speaker 1: a lot of footprints on the East Coast, but not

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Speaker 1: a lot of finds like this. Yeah, it was an

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Speaker 1: enormous fine and Um Lighty Uh was called in to

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Speaker 1: excavate it and put it together because he was America's

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Speaker 1: first vertebrate paleontologists. He was the first guy and was

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Speaker 1: really prolific and really good at what he did. Um,

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Speaker 1: and like you said, would eventually become a mentor to

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Speaker 1: one of the guys we should probably introduce now, because

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Speaker 1: Lighty was working in I think his first real burst

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Speaker 1: of energy came in the eighteen fifties, early eighteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: and Um, within about fifteen maybe twenty years, there were

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Speaker 1: a pair of guys who would come along and just

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Speaker 1: completely changed the field of paleontology. It started out very normally,

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Speaker 1: just another scientific field, very exciting, lots of discoveries to

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Speaker 1: be made. I mean, that's the point of all this, right,

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Speaker 1: is that, like if you have a brand new scientific field,

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Speaker 1: everything you come across is worth writing about describing. You

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Speaker 1: get to name everything. So it was a really exciting,

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Speaker 1: like dynamic time for the field of paleontology. But but

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Speaker 1: a field of science is the character of it is

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Speaker 1: based on its earliest practitioners. And Lighty Um was a

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Speaker 1: very steady, normal scientist who was very reliable, so he

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Speaker 1: kind of set paleontology up like that. But then along

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Speaker 1: came a couple of guys who would form this rivalry

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Speaker 1: and they would change all of that. Um No, I

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Speaker 1: don't think necessarily to this day, but there was a

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Speaker 1: a lot of sniping that used to go on in

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Speaker 1: the field of paleontology. That that was because of the

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Speaker 1: tone that these guys set. Yeah, and both of them

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Speaker 1: would end up basically bankrupt at the end of each

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Speaker 1: of their lives because of all their efforts to outdo

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Speaker 1: and undermine one another's work. Um, so we're talking about

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Speaker 1: two dudes. Uh, one is Marsh and one is Cope

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Speaker 1: on off. Neil. I've never heard that name before. I

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Speaker 1: I think his parents made it up. Maybe O T

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Speaker 1: H N I E I'll auth. Neil Charles March born

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Speaker 1: in October one in New York and he was Um.

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Speaker 1: They didn't have a lot of money in his family.

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Speaker 1: They were farmers. Um, he would have been a farmer,

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Speaker 1: but he had and this kind of really changed his life.

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Speaker 1: He had a very rich uncle named George Peabody, UM,

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Speaker 1: who would go on to really kind of fund his

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Speaker 1: education in early parts of his career later on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he just plucked him out of the farm field basically

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Speaker 1: and said, And I have no idea why he did this,

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Speaker 1: but he said you I I like the look of

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Speaker 1: you and your brain, nephew, and you're gonna go to

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Speaker 1: smart would be my guess. Was that it? Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how he demonstrated it, I guess, is

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Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say, Like, how did his uncle say, yes,

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Speaker 1: you're the one. You know, smarts are always evident. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Well he plucked him out, sent him to boring school,

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Speaker 1: then sent him to Yale, and eventually sent him off

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Speaker 1: to grad school in Germany. So um, Marsh. We're just

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Speaker 1: gonna call him Marsh because his name is just too

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Speaker 1: ugly and horrible to say out loud. Um. He was

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Speaker 1: basically set. He was fine. He had a benefactor in

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Speaker 1: his extraordinarily wealthy um philanthropist uncle. Yeah. So Cope. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, Um similarly had money, but his was

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Speaker 1: like in his family. He wasn't like poor with a

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Speaker 1: rich uncle. He had a wealthy family, very prominent family

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He was born in July eight forty,

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Speaker 1: and he went to you know all the Uh, I

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Speaker 1: was gonna say trappings, but I guess all the benefits

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Speaker 1: of being born into money. He went to very nice,

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Speaker 1: expensive boarding school. Uh, and that wasn't so much up

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Speaker 1: his alley. So he dropped out when he was sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and uh, because he had a rich rich dad. Um,

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Speaker 1: it allowed him a lot of opportunities that other people

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have, including you know, going to college later on,

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Speaker 1: even though he never graduated high school. Yeah, well so

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Speaker 1: there so it was definitely in part because of his dad.

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Speaker 1: But also this was a time and like say the

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Speaker 1: eighteen fifties, it was lax. But also like even if

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Speaker 1: you wanted to go on and become like a um,

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Speaker 1: get a PhD, American universities weren't you know, they didn't

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Speaker 1: offer many PhD programs in sciences, right, So there was

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Speaker 1: a there was a whole um something called gentleman naturalists

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Speaker 1: who were amateur self taught um scientists who just just

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Speaker 1: did the work. They knew what they were doing, they

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Speaker 1: figured it out as they went along, and they actually

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Speaker 1: developed some of these fields. And so he kind of

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Speaker 1: subscribed to that school where um, that old school of

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Speaker 1: gentleman naturalists where there was you could you could go

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Speaker 1: figure it out yourself without needing to go through the university.

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Speaker 1: But he did that just on the cusp like our

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Speaker 1: parents generation was just on the cusp of the last

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Speaker 1: group who could get away without knowing how to use email.

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Speaker 1: He was like part of that last generation that could

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Speaker 1: become a scientist with out having to go through formal

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Speaker 1: training at a university. Right, Like if you have a

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Speaker 1: tweed suit with a stiff color and a pencil and

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Speaker 1: a pad, you can and lots of time on your hands. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's that's I mean. To to Cope's credit, I

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Speaker 1: think that that really kind of demonstrates like he's like, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go learn from experience. And he did

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Speaker 1: keep knocking it, but he did get entree into places

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Speaker 1: like the University of Pennsylvania or the Academy of Natural

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Speaker 1: Sciences in Philadelphia because of his family's context. But I

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Speaker 1: get the impression that he worked his way uh into

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Speaker 1: those places. Once he got in, he he didn't just low.

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Speaker 1: He learned what he needed to learn. Yeah. I mean,

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Speaker 1: because if there's one thing we're gonna learn about Cope

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Speaker 1: here over the next thirty minutes or so, is he

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Speaker 1: worked hard? Yes, he's my pick of the bone wars.

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Speaker 1: He's who I put my money behind. Is your guy? Yep? Interesting?

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Speaker 1: Did we ever say his name Edward Drinker Cope? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a weird middle name. It is. He was a drinker, literally,

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Speaker 1: he really was. He was. Also, he was also a

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Speaker 1: Quaker and a pacifist too, that's right. So at college

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Speaker 1: at University of Pennsylvania, that's where he met Joseph Lytey.

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Speaker 1: He was one of his professors. So that just you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of kick started their relationship. Um. During the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: he went to Europe um the American Civil War because

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Speaker 1: he didn't want to be you know, he didn't want

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Speaker 1: to go to war. He didn't want to go fight.

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Speaker 1: He want to go dig up bones. Yeah, and he

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Speaker 1: was a Quaker pacifist too, that's right. So he went

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Speaker 1: to Germany, uh In in eighteen sixty three, he met

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Speaker 1: marsh and they really liked each other at first. They

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Speaker 1: had a lot in common, obviously, and I get the

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Speaker 1: feeling that in Germany in eighteen sixty three there were

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Speaker 1: probably not a ton of Americans who were super interested

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Speaker 1: in dinosaur hunting, and so they they locked up, became

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Speaker 1: really good pals. Uh. They came back to the US

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Speaker 1: after the Civil War and friends, and we're both like,

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Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna go do our thing independently, but

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Speaker 1: we're gonna keep touch. We're gonna swap info early on here.

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Speaker 1: And it was all very friendly at first, right, and

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Speaker 1: I think you can make a pretty good case that

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Speaker 1: they probably cut their own palms and clasped hands and

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Speaker 1: became blood brother brothers during the German meeting. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: that's what we're going with, because they really did like

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Speaker 1: each other, um, and things were going along just fine too,

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Speaker 1: kindred spirits with a common interest in paleontology, um. And

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Speaker 1: they may have continued on that way, although I sincerely

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Speaker 1: doubt that that's the case, um, which means I just

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Speaker 1: undermine my own statement. But Um, after the Civil War

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Speaker 1: they both went back to the United States to start careers,

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Speaker 1: their own careers, and marsh um or Cope, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: He had connected with Joseph Lydy, who he had met

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Speaker 1: through the University of Pennsylvania and the Academy of Natural Sciences.

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Speaker 1: They worked together there, and so he went off with

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Speaker 1: Ldy to um study bones that were found at hadden

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Speaker 1: Field in New Jersey. Were light You found that first skeleton, right,

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Speaker 1: And so being friends with Mars, she naturally Cope naturally

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Speaker 1: extended an invitation. Hey, come visit me in the field.

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Speaker 1: You got to see this place. It's amazing. There's fossils everywhere.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna love it. And so Marsh came out for

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Speaker 1: a visit and this was this is mark one in

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Speaker 1: the turning point of their relationship. There were two distinct

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Speaker 1: marks um, each of them point to one is the

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Speaker 1: the end of their friendship. This was the the end

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Speaker 1: of their friendship starting with Cope. That's right. So both

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Speaker 1: of these guys had uh privilege, like we've been talking about. Um.

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Speaker 1: For Marsha's part, his uncle, his rich uncle, donated a

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty grand to Yale basically to sort of

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Speaker 1: get March a job. They created the Peabody Museum of

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Speaker 1: Natural History, and then they were like, well, hey, we

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Speaker 1: need a professor to chair this new department, and so

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Speaker 1: why not your nephew. And they said, Bully, that's a

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00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,040
Speaker 1: great idea. So based it cost a hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: grand to get Marsh Uh this this job as the

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Speaker 1: chair of Department of Paleontology at this new Peabody Museum

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Speaker 1: at Yale University, right, And so they said, yes, Um,

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Speaker 1: we want to make you the first professor of paleontology

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Speaker 1: in America. And Marsh said, yes, that's a great idea.

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Speaker 1: I like where you're going, Yale. I'm going to spend

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Speaker 1: a lot of time here, I can tell. So that's

303
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,040
Speaker 1: that's Marsh setting off on his little trajectory, basically ensconcing

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Speaker 1: himself in Yale Cope. Um, remember he was basically a

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Speaker 1: high school dropout and he had to kind of make

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Speaker 1: his own way. Um. He had trouble at first finding

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Speaker 1: a position until he struck upon a place called Haverford

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Speaker 1: College and he got a position as a professor of

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Speaker 1: zoology there. Um, And they said, well, you're a high

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Speaker 1: school dropout, so we'll just give you an honorary Masters

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Speaker 1: of Arts degree. Being now you're a professor. It's pretty

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Speaker 1: working out for both of these guys. Yeah, although Cope

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Speaker 1: didn't really like have her for that much. Um, he

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Speaker 1: ends up quitting. Um. And it actually kind of its

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Speaker 1: kind of describes his personality a little bit that that

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Speaker 1: incident that he would get a good job, um, having

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Speaker 1: kind of been carried into that position, and then says

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Speaker 1: this job is bs, I'm quitting that he was apparently

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Speaker 1: prone to kind of a quick temper here there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it does make the point. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of hard to piece together a personality from someone way

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Speaker 1: back then, but by most accounts, Cope was a bit mercurial, Um,

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Speaker 1: a little more outgoing. Marsh was a little quieter and

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Speaker 1: kind of known as a bit of a flake. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, but considering their backgrounds, it sort of makes

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Speaker 1: sense where they ended up, Um Marsh, you know that

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Speaker 1: they went about their work in very different ways. Marsh

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Speaker 1: didn't publish his first paper until he was thirty years old. Um,

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Speaker 1: he was a lifelong bachelor. Cope married when he was

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Speaker 1: twenty five. And Cope, you know, even the way they

331
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Speaker 1: wrote co wrote these very sort of flowery um descriptions

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Speaker 1: of things. Well, Marsh was much more sort of rigid

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Speaker 1: and sort of dry and scientific. Yeah, Like if you

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00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 1: if you read Cope stuff, he's trying to like set

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Speaker 1: the scene for you. You know, there's one paper where

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Speaker 1: he was describing terrod actyls, and like it's a scientific paper,

337
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,040
Speaker 1: so all you have to do is describe the bones

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Speaker 1: and the measurements and extrapolate and that kind of stuff.

339
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Speaker 1: But he's like painting the picture of what it must

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Speaker 1: have been like on a cliff side by the ocean

341
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Speaker 1: as a troop of these things were dangling by their claws.

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Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, it's super cool. It would definitely transport

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Speaker 1: the reader there, and it was a little extra doll

344
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Speaker 1: above something that that you didn't have to put on.

345
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,480
Speaker 1: But Cope definitely did put on. Which is surprising that

346
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 1: he put anything extra into his work because he published

347
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 1: at an extraordinary pace, so much so that Marsh in

348
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 1: particular was like, this man is obviously fraudulent. Nobody can

349
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,919
Speaker 1: publish this much. Yeah, for sure, And we'll touch on

350
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Speaker 1: that a bit later. Um, the big difference in their

351
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Speaker 1: earlier careers was when when it came to religion. Um,

352
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Speaker 1: Like you said earlier, Cope was a Quaker and was

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Speaker 1: a religious man. Marsh was not. He was not very

354
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Speaker 1: into religion, and he was fully down with evolution and

355
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Speaker 1: natural selection in Darwin, whereas Cope kind of had them

356
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Speaker 1: make it all fit within his religious beliefs. So it's

357
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Speaker 1: not like he outright like called Darwin a fraud or

358
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Speaker 1: anything like that, but he worked in like the actions

359
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 1: of God into his theories and sort of make it

360
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Speaker 1: made it all work according to his you know, religious beliefs,

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Speaker 1: which is I mean back then a little a little

362
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Speaker 1: bit different, but even back then for a scientist, sort

363
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 1: of an odd thing, yeah for sure. But he he

364
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Speaker 1: he tried to rectify science and his religious belief, and

365
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Speaker 1: the way that a lot of people did that back

366
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Speaker 1: then was to subscribe to neo Lamarckism, which is this

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Speaker 1: idea that um changes in a population take place on

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Speaker 1: the individual level. Like an example I saw was if

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Speaker 1: you're a blacksmith and you UM use your arm a

370
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Speaker 1: bunch to hammer, you're gonna get a big old bulky arm. Right. Well,

371
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Speaker 1: when you have kids, you're gonna pass that bulky arm

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Speaker 1: that you developed in your lifetime off to them. And

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Speaker 1: that's how evolution happens. And it's much more directed by

374
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Speaker 1: God than what Darwin was saying, which is you're just

375
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Speaker 1: born with a random mutation, and if that mutation happens

376
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Speaker 1: to make it more likely for you to to survive

377
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Speaker 1: to pass along your genes, then that mutation will get

378
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Speaker 1: selected by nature, which basically has nothing to do with God.

379
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Speaker 1: So there was a real like struggle for Cope throughout

380
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,480
Speaker 1: his lifetime um rectifying the two, especially considering Chuck that

381
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 1: the body of work that he produced really helped prove

382
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: Darwin's point more than anything. Yeah, Um, when it comes

383
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 1: still like where things went wrong because they were still

384
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 1: buddies up until this point, Uh, it seemingly looks like

385
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: Marsh drew first blood. UM we mentioned that hadn't field

386
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: dig earlier. So it's UM eight sixty eight. Cope has

387
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 1: left his job at Haversford. UM. He's not very happy there,

388
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 1: so he leaves. He's really kind of feed on the

389
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 1: ground doing the work UM publishing papers which will see

390
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,719
Speaker 1: later at an alarming rate, and working with Lightie, who

391
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: we talked about. And he invited Marsh because their buddies,

392
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 1: and he was like, dude, you gotta come check this out.

393
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Speaker 1: We found a legit dinosaur fossil on the east coast.

394
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,479
Speaker 1: Marsh was like, great, I'll go check it out. He

395
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: loves what he sees and says this is wonderful, friend,

396
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: you're doing such great work here. Then he sneaks back

397
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: later on by himself and bribes the workers there, Copes

398
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 1: workers and Lighties workers and says, hey, man, if you

399
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: find any more good specimens, send them to this address,

400
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: and here's some a little dough for your effort. Can

401
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 1: you believe that? Yeah? I mean just straight up sold

402
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: him out right. So Marsh has just outed himself as

403
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: a very wormy type of fellow not to be trusted

404
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: and the way that I thought there was a really

405
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 1: great American Experience episode called Dinosaur Wars that really kind

406
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: of described it. Like to to Cope, he subscribed to

407
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: that gentleman's scholar type of mentality, which was there's unwritten rules,

408
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, like I came and showed you my quarry

409
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: and you went behind my back to steal my fossils

410
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: from my corey. Not cool, that was Cope's take. From

411
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: Marsha's point of view, he was kind of from the uh,

412
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: the business like American school of of um just conquer

413
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: at all costs, and he owed no allegiance really to

414
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: to Cope in that sense that he saw an opportunity

415
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: and he took it. And that was Marsha's view of

416
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: the whole thing. But to Cope, that was like that

417
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: was not very cool, and I'm going to remember that.

418
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: But I'm still going to tell natively remained friends with you.

419
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: All Right, Well, let's take a break and we'll come

420
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: back right after this and we'll we'll talk about what

421
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: marsh always said was the reason they were no longer

422
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: friends right after this. All right, So Marsha has really

423
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: screwed his friend over, Yeah, I mean his back paid

424
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 1: off dudes to send him stuff. But according to Marsh,

425
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: he's like, that's not why we weren't friends anymore, that

426
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: that was not what really killed our friendship at all.

427
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 1: Here's what happened. Later on that year, Cope published a

428
00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 1: paper um establishing this new species at Las most Saris plutarius. Nice,

429
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: thank you. Um. Marsh goes to the Academy of Natural

430
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: Sciences in Philly to check this thing out, because they're

431
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: still sort of friends at this point, and Cope showing

432
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: off his things, like look at this thing. I put

433
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: this thing back together and look at the skeleton. It's amazing,

434
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: and said, my friend, it appears you have fallen into

435
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: the classic paleontology trap and mounted the head on the butt. Yep.

436
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: And this was a humiliating thing for Cope, sure, so

437
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: much so that he realized, oh god, I just wrote

438
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: a paper describing this thing with its head on the

439
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: wrong end in the American Philosophical Society's journal, and ran

440
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: out and tried to buy as many of these copies

441
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 1: as he could just to cover up his his mistake.

442
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: And um, the way that the way that Marsh put

443
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: it later, because he ran around telling everybody he could

444
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: about this gap was very glib about oh, very very

445
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: um like he he went, he just wanted to make

446
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: sure that everybody knew that Cope had screwed up right. Um.

447
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: Whereas he characterized the story, he characterized himself in the

448
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: story is just having gently pointed this out. He basically

449
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,239
Speaker 1: said that Cope's vanity um was wounded and or his

450
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: wounded vanity received a shock from which it has never recovered,

451
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: basically saying like, not only did he get it wrong

452
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: when I gently pointed this out, this guy just flipped

453
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: out and he still hasn't forgiven me. So that's what

454
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: happened to our our friendship. Never mind the whole going

455
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: behind his back thing at hadden Field. This is really

456
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: what happened. But the thing is that story isn't even correct.

457
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: It's just like a sliver of the fuller picture, because

458
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: the fuller picture involves Joseph Lydy, who again remember was

459
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: working at the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia where

460
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: this skeleton was in the first place. That's right, So

461
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: what apparently really happened is is marsh comes in and

462
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 1: just says, oh, actually the neck vertebrae is in is

463
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: in the wrong position and that got everyone over there looking,

464
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: and Lighty is the one who actually said, oh no,

465
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: you have the head in the wrong place where the

466
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: tail is, and so fully paint a picture here. This

467
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: wasn't like some huge, big deal like mistakes. It was

468
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: very early on in paleontology. Everyone was doing their best. Uh.

469
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: There was a lot of trial and error going on,

470
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: a lot of guesswork. And it wasn't like, oh my gosh,

471
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: she you know it's it's not like someone today drawing

472
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: the head of a bear mounted on his butt. They

473
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 1: were doing the best they could and it wasn't like

474
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: some huge error right now. And and it is true

475
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: from what I understand that Cope did run around trying

476
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: to buy the copies of the American Philosophical Society Journal

477
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: that had the incorrect part in it, and he was

478
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: um humiliated, especially the fact that Marsh was involved. But

479
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: it definitely wasn't Marsh running to the rescue to save

480
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: paleontology um and and Coke just being a voice. Overall,

481
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: it was definitely an incorrect picture that Marsh painted. But

482
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: regardless of how it's painted or what actually happened, that

483
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: two prong attack on the friendship, both of them perpetrated

484
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: by marsh Frankly, if you ask me, that ended their friendship.

485
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: Like their their friendliness was basically out the door. There's

486
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: some evidence that in the following couple of years when

487
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: they wrote to one another, they would kind of jokingly

488
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: reference some of the stuff in the past, but that

489
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: even that eventually dried up and they genuinely became bitter

490
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: bitter rivals, made all the more pronounced um when the

491
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: West was opened up by the Transcontinental Railroad, because all

492
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you had said earlier that the fossil

493
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,959
Speaker 1: fields in the east were the well the the conditions

494
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: of climate and geology in the East were not conducive

495
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: to preserving dinosaur bones. The exact opposite is true of

496
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: the Western United States. And when the West opened up,

497
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: it was like, come on, in paleontology, that the timing

498
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: of the two is just astoundingly perfect. Yeah, I mean,

499
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: we're talking about the Dakotas, Kansas, um just bones everywhere

500
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: and not even too hard to find a lot of times.

501
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: I mean, if you were a paleontologist and you headed west,

502
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,239
Speaker 1: if you had some protection, because this is despite all

503
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: our efforts, that was still sort of a dangerous area

504
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: for a white man from the east to be traveling around. Um,

505
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: the Native American tribes there and the Western tribes did

506
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: not take kindly to a lot of it, No, because

507
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: think about it, like, they went from you know, wagon

508
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:42,479
Speaker 1: trains of settlers coming through periodically, two trains daily moving

509
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: people in and out. So it was a big deal

510
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: to the Western tribes, um, who were fighting back and

511
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: pushing back against this encroachment and wave that was coming

512
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: much more strongly than it had been before. The railroad too, Yeah,

513
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: for sure. So from this point on, the guys took

514
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: very um sort of different I guess were forced to

515
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: take different approaches to their careers. Um cope. It basically

516
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: spent the rest of his life as a working paleontologist,

517
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: like feed on the ground. For the most part. He

518
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: didn't work at a college. He didn't work at a

519
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: museum until much much later. Um. He was not like

520
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: taking care of or funded by the government. So he

521
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: paid for all the you know, he came from a

522
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: wealthy family, so he paid for most of the stuff himself. Uh.

523
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: Sold his farm, his you know family Quaker farm, and

524
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: got a big fat inheritance and started going west and

525
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: started amassing this big collection that was actually his, which

526
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: was a really big deal because since no one was

527
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: contributing to his um financial burdens, he I guess technically

528
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: owned this stuff, right. He he owned a fair and

529
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: square I mean, he'd financed his own expeditions. He paid

530
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: for the shipping and transportation of these things, which is

531
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: another thing. The railroad helped did not only open the West,

532
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: that helped ship enormous bones back east to the museums.

533
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: But he was paying for this, So yeah, that his

534
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: collection was his own. Um. Marsh, on the other hand,

535
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: being ensconsed in Yale, he was able to rely on Yale,

536
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: Yale families, the government contacts that Yale had to finance

537
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: the expeditions that he went on. So in his mind

538
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: it was his collection, but um, technically it really wasn't

539
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: because he hadn't financed any of it himself. It had

540
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: all been financed by others. The thing the thing about Marsh, though, Chuck,

541
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: is that he was the first one to make it

542
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: out west, and because he was the first one there,

543
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: he basically considered the entire Western United States his turf,

544
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 1: and everyone else was encroaching on it, which is awfully

545
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: rich if you can remember what he did to Cope

546
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: back at hadden Field, and so you know, back then

547
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: there wasn't any kind of ownership on any fossils. But

548
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: now that he's the first one out west, there is

549
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: such a thing and they all belonged to him for sure. Um,

550
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: so Cope and you know, when it comes to academics,

551
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: they also were really really different and how they approached things. Um.

552
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: We kind of teased earlier about how much Cope wrote

553
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: and published, and boy, it's astounding. Um it seems like

554
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: he published throughout his career about fourteen hundred academic papers. Uh.

555
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: In the eighteen seventies he was doing about twenty five

556
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: papers a year, and in one winter alone of eighteen

557
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: seventy nine and eighteen eighty he published seventies six papers,

558
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: very prolific to the point where it was pretty easy

559
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: for someone like Marsh to poke holes and um kind

560
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: of say that he was either copying people, or plagiarizing people,

561
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: or just outright fraudulent, and that no one can write

562
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: this much stuff. It also presented a problem in that Cope, Um,

563
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: he was publishing so much that he had a hard

564
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: time getting stuff published as a while after a while,

565
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: because there weren't a ton of scientific journals and they

566
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: can't be like, listen, man, we can't publish like ten

567
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: things a month from you or a chord or because

568
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: we'll just call this thing the Coke Journal. And he said,

569
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: that's a great idea. So in eighteen seventy seven he

570
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: bought the American Naturalist Journal for himself to publish all

571
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: his own works, which ended up being a really uh,

572
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: I don't know about bad choice, but financially it is

573
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: what really put the biggest dent in his uh future

574
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: fortunes was sinking a ton of his own money into

575
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: this American Naturalist Journal. Oh is that right? I thought

576
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: it was the silver mine. The journals set him up

577
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: for it. Oh yeah, the silver mine was the last

578
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: ditch effort to try and make a little bit of

579
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: money because he was almost broke by that point. So

580
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: so he but he does have this forum now, um,

581
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: whether it was a good business opportunity or not, he

582
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: has a forum to publish in um. And And like

583
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: you're saying, he wrote just so many papers. Not only

584
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: was it just too many for the journals to keep

585
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: up with, there were also a lot of questions of

586
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: these journals, like, wait a minute, if you're like a deliberate,

587
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: thoughtful scientists, you shouldn't be able to publish this much.

588
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: And one of the problems of the Bone Wars the

589
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: rivalry between Cope and Marsh, that that really kind of

590
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: got both of them to be the first to rush

591
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: to name a species or make some new discovery um

592
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: so that the other one couldn't. Is that there was

593
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,919
Speaker 1: a lot of sloppy work that came out of it.

594
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: And when there's a lot of slappy, sloppy taxonomical work

595
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: where the same species is getting different names from different

596
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: people at the same time, that takes a lot to entangle.

597
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: And apparently it took um paleontology many decades to kind

598
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: of undo some of the sloppy work that was kind

599
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: of late at the foundation of the field in the

600
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: eighteen seventies. Yeah, and especially at Cope's feet, because for

601
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: his part, Marsh was very, very much more methodical, did

602
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: not publish nearly as many papers, but along with that

603
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: comes a lot more prestige. No one was gonna, um,

604
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: no one's going to talk about Marsh and say that

605
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: he's publishing too much he's doing sloppy work. Uh So

606
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: as a result, they were published in some really prestigious

607
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,919
Speaker 1: journals over the years, kind of almost exclusively. And he had,

608
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 1: like you said, Yale behind him, so he would take

609
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: students a lot of time to make them pay their

610
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: own way, because this is all a very expensive endeavor

611
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: for the time. Um you know, Cope was was sort

612
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: of creative and how he would fund some of this,

613
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: like he would latch onto other Western expeditions that had

614
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: nothing to do with paleontology. This was one called the

615
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: Wheeler Survey, which was a mapping expedition that he was

616
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: able to hook up with. So he would cut corners

617
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: and save where he could. But with the power of

618
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: Yale University behind him in the students who would pay

619
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: their own way, Marsh had a real advantage when it

620
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: came to uh staking his claim at West right. And

621
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: also there was one of the first expeditions he went

622
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: on um was funded by the families of some Yale students,

623
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: So it was some you know, Yale students and Marsh

624
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: basically playing cowboy out West and the first I guess

625
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: the first day once they arrived out West where they

626
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: were gonna dig Um, Buffalo Bill Cody shows up basically

627
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: kind of like as a guest star to appear and

628
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: just delight and thrill the Yale boys, Um, one of

629
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: whom wrote about the whole expedition, and the whole thing

630
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 1: up published in Harper's. So the whole thing kind of

631
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: demonstrates that Um Marsh, as much as he's kind of

632
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 1: seen as like this meek, deliberate scientist, was also really

633
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: good at self promotion too. Oh for sure, he would

634
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: wear a gun. I think he sort of fashioned himself

635
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: as a Teddy Roosevelt type or maybe a Buffalo Bill type.

636
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, he would toot his own horn for sure. Um.

637
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: For his part, Cope after his father passed away, spent

638
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 1: less and less time out west in the actual field,

639
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 1: more time in Philadelphia, and he would hire guys out

640
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: And in fact, Marsh would later go on to do

641
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: a very similar thing where they would have their diggers

642
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: out there, um excavating and then sending bones back to

643
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: the East coast where they could do their dig in

644
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: and do their studying there. Right, And it's out west

645
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: that this the famous bone Wars really started to take place.

646
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 1: But like you were saying, neither Marsh nor Cope were there.

647
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: But what was going on out west, all the dirty

648
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: deeds and all that stuff. We're at the at the

649
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: direction and behest of these two. So you want to

650
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: take another break and then get into what the bone

651
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 1: wars are really all about. Okay, we'll be right back,

652
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: all right, Chuck. So the seventies roll around the west

653
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: has opened up from the Transcontinental Railroad. The it's giving up.

654
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: It's fossils. It's just crazy how well preserved fossils are

655
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: out there because of um heat and dryness and wind

656
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 1: erosion exposes them. And there was a part of that

657
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: American Experience documentary where, um, they showed a picture of

658
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 1: like just this landscape that you could see from the train,

659
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: and um, they said that that some expedition was riding

660
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: by and figured that they were riding by just a

661
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: rock outcropping, and they realized there was just a field

662
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: covered in dinosaur bones. That that's it wasn't rocks, it

663
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: was bones. That's how many bones there were out west.

664
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: So the West is starting to yield this stuff, and

665
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: just one place would become like a treasure trove, and

666
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: another place would become a treasure trove, and each of

667
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: these places, Um, some prospector would find a big bone

668
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: and the first thing they would think of was, I

669
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: need to either get in touch with Cope or Marsh,

670
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: because these guys are gonna want to know about this

671
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: and they'll probably pay big bucks for it. And that's

672
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: really once they stopped um mounting their own expeditions. That's

673
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: how they got most of their bones is from amateurs

674
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: getting in touch with them. Yeah, so this, you know,

675
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: this would open the door for these guys to really

676
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: kind of um get underhanded. They would hire guys away

677
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: from each other. They would pay for information about the

678
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: other person's digs and the bones that they were getting.

679
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: They would outbid one another and like you know, eventually,

680
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: like I said, both of these guys would end up

681
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: pretty much financially ruined in the end. Uh. There were

682
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: reports of sabotage of theft um. There were reports of

683
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: dynamiting the other person's like digs in their camps. Well,

684
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: one thing I saw listen to this, Marsh ordered that

685
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: if his men couldn't get bones out of like a

686
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: find like they just couldn't get it out, he said,

687
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: smash them, do not leave them, because I don't want

688
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: Cope to possibly be able to get him himself. Not

689
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: only that, but the bones that they would, like, smaller

690
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: fines that they would dig up that they didn't think

691
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: were as important. Uh, they would smash so the other

692
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: person wouldn't have anything to do with them. Yeah, so

693
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: they were smashing the fossils that they sought for science

694
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: because of their rivalry. That's the insane degree that it reached. Yeah,

695
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: and you know it's easy now to um. And I'm

696
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: wondering if this, like how much they had to trump

697
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: this up for a movie script because it seems like

698
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: some of this is exaggerated. Um, I don't know if

699
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: they found actual evidence that they would dynamite each other's camps. Um.

700
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 1: It seems like the most they would do is like,

701
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: you know, push dirt back onto the things that they

702
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: had dug up and not you know, again their their

703
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: lackeys out there are doing this stuff. Um. And you

704
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: know these guys, this was all kind of perpetrated by

705
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,240
Speaker 1: Martian Cope themselves. They would kind of trump up these stories,

706
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: uh in the press and things to kind of make

707
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: the other one look bad. So while there were bone

708
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: wars going on, I'm not sure it was quite as

709
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: like um exciting as they're made out to be. Well,

710
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: there weren't like shootouts or anything like that, but I

711
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: mean just the fact that these two paleontologists are trying

712
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: to sabotage one another's career is kind of hilarious in

713
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: and of itself, you know, Yeah, I mean, and it

714
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: could have you know, the fact that these guys were

715
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: driving each other. It's like this is the lens we

716
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: look at it through. Now, it's like did this hurt

717
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: the field of paleontology or help it? And you can

718
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: kind of look at it from two angles, um and

719
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: one hand. What if they would have worked together and

720
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: pulled their resources, maybe they could have found a lot

721
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: more and gotten a lot of more things straight that

722
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: they didn't have to untangle later. Or maybe because they

723
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: were so competitive and drove each other to work harder,

724
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: maybe they were uncovering things because of that, because they

725
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: uncovered a lot of stuff, Like they were both super

726
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: prolific together. I think between the two of them, they

727
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: accounted for a hundred and twenty six new species of

728
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: dinosaur and that's just dinosaur. Yeah, and again this is

729
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: at a time where you could like stub your toe

730
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 1: and look down and you just discovered a new species

731
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: of dinosaur because so little work had been done in

732
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: the field. But yeah, they definitely did drive one another

733
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: to um, to to work harder and faster and try

734
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: to outdo one another. And one of the big benefits

735
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: that the field saw that you can point to in retrospect,

736
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 1: and even at the time was that winner of eighteen

737
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: seventy seven that I was talking about. Um, this is

738
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 1: like winter and wyoming. It's not a very welcoming climate. Um.

739
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: And yet both marsh and Cope hired their prospectors, their

740
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: bone diggers to um continue working through the winner. Rather

741
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: than taking a break like you traditionally when you dug

742
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: in the summer wrote papers in the winter, they said, no,

743
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: keep going. This is just too The bones that are

744
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: coming out of this place are too good, and I

745
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: don't want my rival to be the one to take

746
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: them all out. So both kept working through the winter,

747
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: and out of that one winner, we got Triceratops, we

748
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: got a Patasaurus vegas source all from that one winner

749
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: of eighteen seventy seven. And if you can't look back

750
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: and say, yes, these guys drove one another to to

751
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: this level of discovery. I don't know what you can say.

752
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 1: I just throw my hands up in disgust. Otherwise, did

753
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: that make sense? Okay? I mean as a paleontologist, you

754
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: could literally just say, uh, you know the Triceratops, I

755
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: discovered it. Yeah, and that could be it. That could

756
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: be your career right there. Let alone the Stegasaurus on

757
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: top of the triceratops come on, and then a Patosaurus. Um,

758
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: that may sound vaguely familiar, but here, let me drop

759
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: one on you that you'll say, Oh, you're ready, Braunosaurus,

760
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: same thing. Apparently, Yeah, I didn't. I didn't even fully

761
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: get I mean, this gets into the weeds with like

762
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: serious paleontology pedantry and nord ing out. But yeah, I

763
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: see Bronosaurus. Allow me to nerd out for just a second. Um.

764
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: The point of the Patosaurus Bronosaurus being the same thing

765
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: with different names as one of those things that's frequently

766
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: laid at the feet of Marsh is saying this was

767
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: sloppy work on Marsh's part, and maybe if he hadn't

768
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: been competing with Cope, he would have done better work.

769
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: That's probably not the case, but he named the same

770
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: species two different things because he thought they were two

771
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: different species. And a later paleontologists about twenty thirty years

772
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 1: later came along and said, I think this is the

773
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: same thing. Since they were called the patosaurs first, that's

774
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: what we're going to call this from now on. And

775
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 1: so scientifically, Bronosaurus should have gone. I can't believe about

776
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: to say is the way of the dinosaur, But somehow

777
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: it got into the cultural zeitgeist and everybody said, no,

778
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: we like saying bronosaurus more. I blame the Simpsons or

779
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: um the flint Stones because of the Brontosaurus burger thing.

780
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: Who knows if that's the case or not, but that

781
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: was that was supposedly the bronosaurs and the Patosaurus are

782
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: the same thing, and really you're supposed to call him

783
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: a patosaurs nerd ing out. So in the eighties, this

784
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: is after the big rush of the late seventies, Uh,

785
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: things started to change a bit. So marsh has got

786
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: a couple of good jobs. He's the he's uh he

787
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: works at the U S Geological Survey and as the

788
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: president of the National Academy of Sciences. But financially they're

789
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: not doing so great on either side, because, like we said, earlier,

790
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: they'd spent a lot of their own money trying to

791
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: outdo one another. Right, so Um Marsh is in a way,

792
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 1: way better position than Cope. This is actually at a

793
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: point when Cope is kind of against the Ropes, but

794
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: rather than both of them just kind of going their

795
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: own way, the dinosaur wars have kind of ebbed a

796
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: little bit and they can just kind of go off

797
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: and and work as paleontal just for the rest of

798
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: their life. Marsh decides to come after Cope um and

799
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: deal him the death blow. The moment Marsh had a

800
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: position of power that he could use against Cope, he

801
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: abused his position immediately. He was very high up at

802
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: the U. S g S, and he used that connection

803
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: to freeze Cope out of any any chance of getting

804
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 1: any kind of government funding for any further expeditions. So

805
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: Cope was basically penniless, sorry Chuck, because he had invested

806
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: in that silver mind that that he used the rest

807
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: of his money for. Basically the silver mine went bust,

808
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: so he lost all of his money. And now his

809
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: greatest enemy and rival was in charge of the purse

810
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: strings for government expeditions and had basically said you're not

811
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: getting a dime Cope. So Cope was left with his

812
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: collection and nothing else. That's bad enough. But then Marsh

813
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: decided to take it one step further and he introduced

814
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: some laws into the U s g S. Um I

815
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: guess by laws had said if a government, if a

816
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: government program or agency has funded an expedition, any fossils

817
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: collected from that expedition belonged to the government. And he

818
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: sent the U s g S after Cope's collection. He

819
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: tried to take Cope's collection the own you think Cope

820
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 1: had left. He didn't have his family anymore. Um. He

821
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: was living alone in like a tiny apartment surrounded by

822
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: his collection. It was all he had left, and Marsh

823
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: tried to take it from him. And actually Marsh failed

824
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: because Cope could prove that he had paid for most

825
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: of it, that's right, And it was that collection that

826
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: kind of funded the rest of his life. He would

827
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: sell off parts of it here and there when he

828
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: needed to make rent and stuff like that. Uh. He

829
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: did get a job. He in eighty nine he was

830
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: hired as professor of zoology at the University of Pennsylvania.

831
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: So that's good. At least had a little bit of

832
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: an income, and UH it was they were dead to

833
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: each other at this point, though Um spent a lifetime

834
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: battling each other. Cope was just infuriated at the links

835
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: Marsh would go. It was all just very petty UM

836
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: at this point. And neither one of them come out

837
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: looking great because of a career of sort of backstabbing

838
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: each other. And Um they went to the press. UH.

839
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: In the end, I think it was Cope he had

840
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: taken these copious note over his life about all the

841
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: grievances he had against Marsh over the years, and he

842
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: went to the New York Herald. They published an article

843
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: about this, but it ended up just making both of

844
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: them look bad. It made Marsha look bad because the

845
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: things he did made Cope look UM kind of petty

846
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: and angry about everything. And this is all kind of

847
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: played out in in public in the press, right and

848
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: in this in this first article UM. When Cope went

849
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: to the Herald, UH, he accused not just UM Marsh

850
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: of of UM like wrongdoing, but also the USGS of corruption.

851
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: And that actually got the interest of Congress, who started investigating,

852
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: and UH ended up cutting the U s G s

853
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: IS budget by like half, so Marsha ended up losing

854
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,279
Speaker 1: his job in his position as head paleontologist at the U.

855
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,439
Speaker 1: S g S. And in a beautiful ironic twist, that

856
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: law that he himself had inserted UH in through the

857
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: U s g S that anybody who's collection UM had

858
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: been financed by the US government it UM could lose

859
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: that collection meant that he actually lost his collection. The

860
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: government came after his collection and took a substantial chunk

861
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: of it for itself because it had financed so much

862
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,800
Speaker 1: of his expeditions. So it ended up turning him and

863
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: biting him in his own rear, and he lost a

864
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: lot of his collection, which really burned. So Cope died first.

865
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: He died in eighteen ninety seven at the age of

866
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: fifty six, but not before he would issue a challenge

867
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: to marsh which is, I'm leaving my body and my

868
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: brain to science, and I bet you my brain is

869
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: bigger than your brain. Marsha never took the bait. He

870
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: died in eighteen eighty nine of pneumonia at the age

871
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: of sixty eight, and by all accounts, did not UH

872
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: take part in this brain measuring UH competition. This this

873
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 1: posthumous competition in the grave, which I think is kind

874
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 1: of funny. Um, But to that brain, I think Cope's

875
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: brain is still uh still under the ownership of the

876
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 1: University of Pennsylvania today. It still wanders the halls at night,

877
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: amazing ghostly brain. That's the surprise ending to this one.

878
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: That's right, And I guess in the end, Marsh is

879
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: credited with eighty species to cops fifty six, which is

880
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: not bad. Plus also Cope has that papers under his

881
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: belt too. It's a lot of papers. Uh. You got

882
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: anything else about the bone Wars? Well, that's it, everybody.

883
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: There's I think there's a Drunk History episode about this.

884
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: I never saw it, but it looks pretty good. I

885
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: would recommend the American Experience episode on it and just

886
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: go bread up more on it because it's pretty interesting stuff.

887
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 1: And since I said um it a bunch of times,

888
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: just now it's time for listener mail. Alright, I'm gonna

889
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: call this Civil Air Patrol. This is from Jackson. Uh

890
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: share belati. Can I ask you a question? There was

891
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: a big influx of Civil Air Patrol emails out of nowhere?

892
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: Did you notice? I did not? Yeah, we got like

893
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: a handful of him just out of the blue and

894
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: I didn't know if if something happened or what, but

895
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: I guess it's making the round somehow. Who knows. Maybe

896
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: we're on the Civil Air Patrol watch list web blog.

897
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 1: So uh from Jackson, he says, I have been a

898
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: listener for about seven years, since I was ten years old. Anyway,

899
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 1: I'm a senior Master Sergeant in the Civil Air Patrol

900
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: and I've been in it for about two and a

901
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: half years. I was really excited you guys finally did

902
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: a podcast on us. Is not a ton of people

903
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: even though he exists. Uh. Some say we are the

904
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: Air Force's best kept secret. I don't know about that. Yeah,

905
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: might have something on you guys. Uh, it is nice

906
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: to get some publicity like that. Though you guys totally

907
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: nailed it. Did an awesome job. Like always being a

908
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,240
Speaker 1: cadet in the program. I'd like to hear more about

909
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: that part. Maybe you could do a short stuff on

910
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 1: it someday. Cadet life is more of a training life

911
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: than in actually doing the stuff, uh, like learning how

912
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: to eat effectively and all that jazz. We also have

913
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: a lot of mini bootcamp things that we go to

914
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: further our learning. Anyway, you did an outstanding job, and

915
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,479
Speaker 1: I would appreciate it if you could give a shout

916
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:16,919
Speaker 1: out to my squadron, the Green Mountain Composite Squadron. It's

917
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: not bad, not a bad night. Green Mountain Composite Squadron

918
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: sounds like a wholesale furniture material. I was gonna say

919
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 1: it sounds like a sort of a modern blue grass band.

920
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: Oh that's a good one too. Yeah, like there's a

921
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: lot of synth in ball Okay, synthon mandolin Okay. And

922
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: that was from Jackson. That's right, Jackson. Is he the

923
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: front man for this blue grass band? Of course? All right, Well,

924
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: thanks a lot for for writing in Jackson. Hopefully we'll

925
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: fulfilled all of your requests. Uh and if we didn't

926
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: t s for you, If you want to get in

927
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: touch with us like Jackson did, you can go on

928
00:52:58,120 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 1: to stuff you Should Know dot com and check out

929
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: our social links, or you can send us a good

930
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 1: old fashioned email, wrap it up, spank it on the bottom,

931
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: and send it off to stuff podcast at i Heart

932
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production

933
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: of i Heeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts

934
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: for my Heart Radio, visit the iHeart radio, app, Apple podcasts,

935
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H