1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,440
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Crime Round Up. I'm Cheryl McCollum and

2
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,320
Speaker 1: I am joined by the Queen herself, Nancy Grace.

3
00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,360
Speaker 2: Good morning, Good morning, Good morning, Cheryl McCollum. Just so

4
00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 2: much is happening right now. It's hard to pick on

5
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,240
Speaker 2: what we should focus because you know, so much is happening.

6
00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,040
Speaker 2: And you know, a lot of people would say, you know,

7
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 2: that's that's great for you, and Cheryl got plenty to

8
00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,280
Speaker 2: talk about, but when you think about the people behind

9
00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,840
Speaker 2: our reporting and our investigations, it's very disturbing. And I'm

10
00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,080
Speaker 2: specifically referring to Maddie's so too. I mean, I just

11
00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 2: I'm beside myself about the school shooting. When I look

12
00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,920
Speaker 2: at the photo of the little victim, you know, one

13
00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,920
Speaker 2: of multiple victims, I can hardly even think straight. And

14
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,679
Speaker 2: at the same time, the Mattie Madeline Sautou case is

15
00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,920
Speaker 2: moving forward, and the more I learn, the more discussed

16
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:14,399
Speaker 2: that I get.

17
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,200
Speaker 1: And you know, with Mattie's case, to me, it's something

18
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:23,760
Speaker 1: that you and I preach all the time. Patterns, patterns, patterns.

19
00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:28,640
Speaker 1: Anytime somebody breaks a pattern that should be a flag.

20
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,760
Speaker 2: I'm just looking at the evidence, you know, in addition

21
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,240
Speaker 2: to patterns, because a defense attorney can tear a pattern

22
00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,360
Speaker 2: to shreds if that's all you've got. One thing I

23
00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:44,080
Speaker 2: noticed is the I had didn't call my boyfriend, Stephan Stearns.

24
00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,440
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about hard evidence in the case, and I'm

25
00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:53,440
Speaker 2: thinking about the mother and her involvement, her alleged involvement.

26
00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,400
Speaker 2: For one thing, I noticed that the what we really

27
00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,920
Speaker 2: need is a giant timeline for a jury because no

28
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,640
Speaker 2: one is commenting on it, but the fact that he

29
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:14,000
Speaker 2: the mother's boyfriend to live in Stefan Stearns threw away

30
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:21,800
Speaker 2: Maddie's backpack and laptop in a dumpster before her body

31
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,840
Speaker 2: is found. And I was analyzing this last night in

32
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,800
Speaker 2: preparation to talk to you this morning. And I've seen

33
00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:35,040
Speaker 2: that in multiple cases where the victims items, they're clothing,

34
00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 2: their possessions are thrown away or sold while the victim's

35
00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 2: still missing. Why because the perp knows they're not going

36
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,560
Speaker 2: to be she won't need her backpack anymore, her little

37
00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,840
Speaker 2: school laptop. And this morning, when I was watching the twins,

38
00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,640
Speaker 2: at this point, I don't pack their backpacks anymore, but

39
00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,600
Speaker 2: I was watching them get their school laptops together before

40
00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,880
Speaker 2: they left. Of course that's bittersweet. I'm happy they're doing

41
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,040
Speaker 2: it on their own. But Cheryl, till they were about

42
00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:04,880
Speaker 2: in the seventh grade, I put a toy in the

43
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,680
Speaker 2: backpack every day with their with their snack, and they go,

44
00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 2: is there a toy? And I said, the toy missed

45
00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,360
Speaker 2: you so much it jumped in your backpack. They actually

46
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,720
Speaker 2: believe that, but until, like you know, they would never say, mom,

47
00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 2: I'll believe that you did it. But they just look

48
00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 2: at me like, Okay, we know you did it. And

49
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:28,519
Speaker 2: I was just thinking about Maddie Madeline Soto getting ready

50
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 2: for school the day before and sometime, and I think

51
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 2: it's not when people think she was killed. I think

52
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:38,800
Speaker 2: she was killed earlier.

53
00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,960
Speaker 1: Well, he's caught on video at the apartment complex, like

54
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,800
Speaker 1: you said, at seven point thirty in the morning, dumping

55
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 1: her personal items. Well, that says to me she was

56
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 1: killed the night before.

57
00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,040
Speaker 2: Possibly yeah, And when the mother is asked, this is

58
00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,040
Speaker 2: why I'm going back to the mother. Do I think

59
00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,640
Speaker 2: the mother killed her? No, But I think that negligence

60
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,320
Speaker 2: that ends in death, in my mind is a felony

61
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,960
Speaker 2: murder because again, and I know I've said this many

62
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,040
Speaker 2: many times, but it really can't be said enough. Felony

63
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:19,719
Speaker 2: murder is very simply when a death occurs during the

64
00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,440
Speaker 2: commission of a felony, that's it. For instance, if you're

65
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,480
Speaker 2: robbing a gas station and you run into the gas

66
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 2: tank itself and it blows up and it gives the

67
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,719
Speaker 2: attendant inside the gas station as felony murder. You're committing

68
00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 2: an armed robbery, which is a felony, and a death occurs.

69
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,800
Speaker 2: That's a textbook example a felony murder. Hey, I got

70
00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,240
Speaker 2: to make it note of this whole on Mom felony

71
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,080
Speaker 2: murder because I mean, how can you have your boyfriend

72
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,520
Speaker 2: and he's been sleeping with her since she's eleven? How

73
00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,640
Speaker 2: do I know that? Because nearly two thousand images were

74
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 2: found on his cell phone? Yep, what an ahole is

75
00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,680
Speaker 2: definitely going to be in hell. But that's really not

76
00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:03,839
Speaker 2: enough for me. I want Tom in jail or the

77
00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,159
Speaker 2: death penalty now. Okay, Satan can have him later. I

78
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:12,000
Speaker 2: want him now. So how do I work that? This

79
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,640
Speaker 2: is something? I have to think long and hard about

80
00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,479
Speaker 2: taking this to a grand jury, charging Mom with felony

81
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:26,680
Speaker 2: murder felony child negligence that ends in murder. I mean

82
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:32,040
Speaker 2: the guys raping your daughter down the hall and then

83
00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 2: she's dead by seven am. And what you sleep through

84
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 2: it because you have a migrain, you know what. Screw

85
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,479
Speaker 2: you and the horse you rode in on there. That's

86
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:43,880
Speaker 2: a technical legal term for you.

87
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,440
Speaker 1: That surely is. But Nancy, when she's asked about the abuse,

88
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,320
Speaker 1: he says, the sex stuff, Oh, that wasn't evil.

89
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:54,640
Speaker 2: How would you not.

90
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,400
Speaker 1: Be losing your mind to thank somebody that you cared about,

91
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,280
Speaker 1: that you brought into your home, that you're preparing meals

92
00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,600
Speaker 1: for and washing his clothes and anything else you can

93
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,880
Speaker 1: think of in that relationship, and he's harming your child

94
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 1: for years and you say it's not evil.

95
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,680
Speaker 2: That's that's what I'm saying, Cheryl. I just that degree

96
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,880
Speaker 2: of negligence to me is a felony and she needs

97
00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,359
Speaker 2: to be charged of fellow him her. At the very beginning,

98
00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:30,200
Speaker 2: people are saying legal legals, Oh, it's not the mom's fault.

99
00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,840
Speaker 2: You know what kind of is? It is her fault

100
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,480
Speaker 2: for a lot, For it's right under her nose. It's

101
00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,919
Speaker 2: not like it's happening away from the home and you

102
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 2: have no idea. It's right, it's twenty feet from.

103
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,560
Speaker 1: Her, and she brought him in there. And here's the

104
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,039
Speaker 1: other thing somebody should ask themselves. If this man is

105
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:56,200
Speaker 1: footloose and fancy free, why you Why is he selecting

106
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,800
Speaker 1: you to date, you to live with? When now he's

107
00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,679
Speaker 1: got to take on a twelve year old, an eleven

108
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,120
Speaker 1: year old, a ten year old, however old she was

109
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,320
Speaker 1: when they first started dating. Why would he do that?

110
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,960
Speaker 1: You have to ask yourself. Is there an arterior motive

111
00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,040
Speaker 1: for him? Is he seeking you out because of Madeline?

112
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,760
Speaker 2: Well, you know all the studies have been done, Cheryl

113
00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 2: McCollum that these predators seek out women with children so

114
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,160
Speaker 2: they can get to the children. I mean, this is

115
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,440
Speaker 2: not fantastical. It happens all the time, and it's hard

116
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 2: for people to believe. But I've seen it so many

117
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 2: times anecdotally, and I'm a statistic that says this happens

118
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,520
Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the time in dating situations when

119
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,960
Speaker 2: you have a single mom. And when I say it

120
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,840
Speaker 2: happens all the time, I don't have a stat to

121
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 2: support that, but I've seen it personally so many times.

122
00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 2: What does that mean, Cheryl? What can I prove with that? Nothing?

123
00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,840
Speaker 2: So you can't really bring statistics into court, you know.

124
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:59,400
Speaker 2: That's how I see everything around me sadly, like, can

125
00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 2: it come into court? Can I use it? What does

126
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,800
Speaker 2: it prove? This is what it proves in my mind.

127
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 2: It proves to me that this is an age old

128
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,480
Speaker 2: pattern and he had probably done it before, and that's

129
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,040
Speaker 2: why he was dating the mom because we know he's

130
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,840
Speaker 2: been based on the images on his phone, that he's

131
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 2: been raping her since she was eleven. Now, thinking about

132
00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 2: the mom saying it wasn't evil, that just pushes me

133
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:25,440
Speaker 2: over the bench.

134
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,480
Speaker 1: So again, if you're looking at that timeline, Sunday before

135
00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,920
Speaker 1: he supposedly was going to take her to school. Monday,

136
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,800
Speaker 1: she celebrated her birthday. Here, you're having cake, you're all

137
00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,440
Speaker 1: dressed up, you're turning thirteen, you're finally a teenager. That's

138
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,400
Speaker 1: a big deal. But mama's not even at the party

139
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,440
Speaker 1: because mama's at work. Mamma gets home, she's exhausted, tells

140
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,440
Speaker 1: her going to bed, and the next morning he's supposedly

141
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,199
Speaker 1: dropping her at school, but they've got him on video

142
00:08:58,240 --> 00:08:58,840
Speaker 1: with the dumpster.

143
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,120
Speaker 2: Can we just t on just a mind right there.

144
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,520
Speaker 2: I was just thinking about something that happened last night,

145
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum. I had I was up up the last

146
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,240
Speaker 2: two nights till about two, and you know, I get

147
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,880
Speaker 2: up at five one day day before, day before, day

148
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,920
Speaker 2: before yesterday, I had to have a root canal. Okay,

149
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,439
Speaker 2: the next day yesterday I had to have foot surgery outpatient,

150
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:32,160
Speaker 2: still foot surgery. So last night it's about midnight, Lucy,

151
00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:38,040
Speaker 2: I'm up reading about Mattie Soto and sitting up in

152
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,199
Speaker 2: ben One light on in my room and Lucy comes

153
00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,880
Speaker 2: in and goes, Mom, I need a gilly suit tomorrow morning.

154
00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,760
Speaker 2: You know what a gilly suit is, right, It's like

155
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,240
Speaker 2: the Marines wear when they're hiding out in a field

156
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,520
Speaker 2: and they looked like a clump of leaves, but they're

157
00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:01,240
Speaker 2: actually a person. They're hiding under this like a giant

158
00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,760
Speaker 2: kate with eyeball with eye holes in it, and it's,

159
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 2: you know, like moss. I just looked at her. I thought,

160
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 2: your Lord in Heaven. And you know what I did.

161
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,880
Speaker 2: I didn't say, girl, I'm tired. I got up with

162
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,120
Speaker 2: my root canal and.

163
00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,520
Speaker 3: My foot at a jive bend bandage, and I started

164
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,120
Speaker 3: tromping through the house all in the basement of course

165
00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,719
Speaker 3: I found their Halloween outfits when they were three.

166
00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,320
Speaker 2: But I mean I found plenty of those. I went

167
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,360
Speaker 2: through from place to place, closet to closet. I didn't

168
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,920
Speaker 2: find it. I thought I knew where it was, but

169
00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,840
Speaker 2: I didn't want to wake up John David. I snuck

170
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,600
Speaker 2: around in his room with you know, the dim light

171
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 2: on your cellphone, trying to look in mixing cranny, but

172
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,080
Speaker 2: I didn't want to wake him up. All right, this morning,

173
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,120
Speaker 2: I wake him up at six. First thing, I'm like,

174
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 2: good morning, where's your Gilly suit? And he knew exactly

175
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,600
Speaker 2: where the gilly suit was? And we got it, of course,

176
00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,480
Speaker 2: and she she took it to school. Why does she

177
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 2: want again suit? Okay, because somehow she's gotten in charge

178
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:12,160
Speaker 2: of outfits to reenact Midsummer Night Dream Shakespeare's And I'm

179
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,640
Speaker 2: not going to even ask why who's wearing a gilly suit?

180
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,720
Speaker 2: But that said, and this mother could drag her sorry,

181
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,959
Speaker 2: weary into a birthday party, you know, make the birthday

182
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 2: party two hours later for when you get home. And look,

183
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:27,960
Speaker 2: I know how hard it is to get off. I

184
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,040
Speaker 2: never ever took off at the DA's office ever, But

185
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 2: do it after do it the next day. It doesn't matter.

186
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,440
Speaker 2: Be there for Pete's sake. Find the damn gilly suit.

187
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,840
Speaker 2: Oh you've driven me to curse. I hope the twins

188
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 2: don't hear this. What can I expect from them? If

189
00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,480
Speaker 2: even I can't behave I tell you what. David's out

190
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,880
Speaker 2: in the backyard right now. You know why because she said, well,

191
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,440
Speaker 2: s h I t in front of the children. Can

192
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,320
Speaker 2: I tell you how I nearly fell out if luks

193
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,040
Speaker 2: could kill And I said, all right, go straight back

194
00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,040
Speaker 2: to the back. You're getting your mouth washed out with soap.

195
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 2: So then we had to, of course pretend I'm well,

196
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,120
Speaker 2: actually I did put soap in his mouth. We had

197
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:15,640
Speaker 2: to pretend he was kidding. Oh my goodness. Hopefully they

198
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 2: won't listen to his own seven.

199
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,559
Speaker 1: Okay, you know again, for this situation, why not have

200
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 1: the birthday party Saturday? Most people do. It doesn't matter

201
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,920
Speaker 1: the date. It matters that people are there that should

202
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,560
Speaker 1: be there. So that was concerning for me as well.

203
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,520
Speaker 1: But again the timeline birthday party, she went to bed.

204
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,880
Speaker 1: He supposedly takes her to school, but they've got him

205
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,520
Speaker 1: on the dumpster. But then Nancy, he comes back after

206
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,679
Speaker 1: the seven point thirty where he's putting her backpack and

207
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,560
Speaker 1: computer in the dumpster. He comes back a little after

208
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 1: eight o'clock. She's in the vehicle with him, but she's

209
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:51,560
Speaker 1: slumped over.

210
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,640
Speaker 2: She's not slumped over, she's dead.

211
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:54,479
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

212
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 2: Can you imagine propping her body up and buckling it

213
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:06,560
Speaker 2: in and then the mother you know, I'm sure you've

214
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 2: taken time to read my last book, Don't be a

215
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,760
Speaker 2: victim Fighting Back against America's crime Wife. Listen, and that

216
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 2: I talk about when you take your children to various places,

217
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:20,400
Speaker 2: you need to know what they're wearing. I know what

218
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,080
Speaker 2: Lucy and John David are wearing. I even know what

219
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,559
Speaker 2: John David's underwear looks like because the ladies closed out

220
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,920
Speaker 2: last night. I don't tell anybody that because he can

221
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,160
Speaker 2: do it himself. I do it because I'm oddly, weirdly

222
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,800
Speaker 2: attached to doing all these things with them, like they

223
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,880
Speaker 2: need me makes me feel better about myself. They don't

224
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:42,080
Speaker 2: need me, Cheryl sadly, I need them. I get it. Yes,

225
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 2: I know what they're wearing. Yes, I know what color

226
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,760
Speaker 2: their backpacks are. Yes, I know Carr they're in that.

227
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,959
Speaker 2: How can you not know what your child is wearing

228
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,240
Speaker 2: or what time you even saw them last. She gave

229
00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:01,560
Speaker 2: conflicting statements about when she even saw Maddie last. Remember,

230
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,720
Speaker 2: at first the investigators religive believe she saw Mattie that morning.

231
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,920
Speaker 2: And see that kind of an inconsistency can throw off

232
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,160
Speaker 2: a murder investigation. I mean, it's the timeline, which I

233
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 2: can't harp on enough. If you start your timeline that

234
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,960
Speaker 2: morning when she's dropped off at school, then you're screwed.

235
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,040
Speaker 2: The timeline starts the time at the time she last

236
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,600
Speaker 2: saw Maddie alive, which was the night before when she

237
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 2: sent her to bed with her live in Stephaon Stearns,

238
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:31,920
Speaker 2: the rapist.

239
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,880
Speaker 1: And how about when police come to her and show

240
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 1: her his Google searches. He's looking up things that people

241
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,400
Speaker 1: would use for anesthesia that would cause somebody to not remember,

242
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:49,320
Speaker 1: things like that, you know, amnesia and her unable to

243
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,440
Speaker 1: move her muscles.

244
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,280
Speaker 2: Are There's so many facts. This is why it takes

245
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,520
Speaker 2: me so long to martial evidence. And what do I

246
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,040
Speaker 2: mean by martial evidence? For instance, evidence that will prove

247
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 2: his lines that he can't be believed. You have to

248
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,640
Speaker 2: do a whole list, a whole demonstrative piece of evidence.

249
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 2: Poster overhead whatever. I never like to do power points

250
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,720
Speaker 2: because I was afraid the Drew would go to sleep

251
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,680
Speaker 2: during that. I like to do posters and HANMD make

252
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 2: them myself so I can look at them and make

253
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,280
Speaker 2: sure they're awake. You know, after lunch especially, they go

254
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,040
Speaker 2: down to that good old courthouse cafeteria and get full

255
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 2: on a bunch of carbs and come back and go

256
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:28,560
Speaker 2: straight to sleep in the jury.

257
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:33,040
Speaker 3: Box hub l No, not on my watch, nobody's going

258
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 3: to sleep.

259
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:40,960
Speaker 2: But there's so much evidence. You got to do a

260
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,760
Speaker 2: whole analysis of the timeline. You've got to then overlay

261
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,920
Speaker 2: the timeline with his movements that we know of. There

262
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 2: you have to add in the video of him, what

263
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,520
Speaker 2: time was that the tag reader? What time was that

264
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,080
Speaker 2: when he allegedly went to a vape shot, when he

265
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 2: allegedly went to McDonald's. When he's caught on me once

266
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 2: video quote dropping her off. All that has to be

267
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 2: laid in. You know when he oh, I love this,

268
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 2: he's turned his cell phone off, just like Hoburger and

269
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 2: so many others I shall not name.

270
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 1: He tried to factory reset it the same day as

271
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 1: you went missing.

272
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in this day and age, you turn

273
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 2: your cell phone off at the same exact time a

274
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,680
Speaker 2: murder goes down of a girl you've been raping since

275
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,800
Speaker 2: she was eleven. I mean, this is such clear intent

276
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,600
Speaker 2: to turn your cell phone off so it can't be pinned.

277
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 2: You know, I can'tn't even have time to erase texts

278
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,840
Speaker 2: or emails, much less figure out how to turn off

279
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 2: location or location sharing or okay for for no, no, no,

280
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 2: I'm running from pillar to post, and he took the

281
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,480
Speaker 2: time to turn his cell phone off. My point is

282
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,320
Speaker 2: there's an avalanche of evidence and it must be marshaled

283
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 2: in order to move forward methodically with a trial. That

284
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 2: That's what I'm thinking about right now. And then, of

285
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,800
Speaker 2: course we haven't even talked about the autopsy and the

286
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,119
Speaker 2: hyoid bone.

287
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,000
Speaker 1: I can see you right now running down that hall

288
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,160
Speaker 1: with gigantic posters and files. You know, I can see

289
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,879
Speaker 1: you headed to that jury to show them. The piece

290
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,919
Speaker 1: of evidence that is so gut wrenching is she was

291
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,639
Speaker 1: wearing white socks when they found her. The bottom of

292
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,119
Speaker 1: the socks were clean. That child did not walk anywhere

293
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,879
Speaker 1: out of that house. And I know you would have

294
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 1: a picture of those socks for God and country look

295
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:48,040
Speaker 1: at them. She didn't walk across grass, dirt, rocks, nothing.

296
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 1: She did not leave that house walking.

297
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 2: I just all I can think about is this little

298
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,679
Speaker 2: girl telling people, you know, when I'm old enough, I'm

299
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,720
Speaker 2: going to go live in the woods. No wonder she

300
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,679
Speaker 2: didn't want to live at home with her mother turning

301
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:08,199
Speaker 2: a blind eye to her living raping her since she

302
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 2: was eleven. I've told you this story before, but my

303
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,959
Speaker 2: front stoor neighbor, Joy Jones, told me what a period was.

304
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 2: I thought it was a joke. I started laughing, right,

305
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,840
Speaker 2: No way, that's not gonna happen. What are you even

306
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 2: talking about from where?

307
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:22,400
Speaker 3: Oh?

308
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 1: Like, what, Jolly's Jolly's crazy.

309
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,199
Speaker 2: I mean this little girl that, by the way, I

310
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:34,760
Speaker 2: was seventeen in the halven. Anyway, this little girl's eleven,

311
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 2: eleven and she's getting raped on a nightly basis by

312
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 2: mommy's boyfriend and mommy's right there in the house. No

313
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 2: wonder she wanted to go live in the woods. I

314
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 2: mean this child and I look at her, and she's

315
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,760
Speaker 2: got that sweet little smile. Those beautiful eyes tell you

316
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,679
Speaker 2: I'm really not going to be happy until the mother's charged,

317
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,679
Speaker 2: not gonna be happy until she's charged.

318
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 1: He had over two thousand and of him abusing Madeline.

319
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 2: He wasn't hiding it, Okay. So when I get like this,

320
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 2: all I can think of is how I can affect

321
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 2: the outcome of this for there to be a true verdict.

322
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 2: And it's giving me that feeling I had when I

323
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,680
Speaker 2: tried cases, that feeling of being needing to be up

324
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,520
Speaker 2: all night and awake and dressed to go by five

325
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 2: am to get to the courthouse to make everything just

326
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 2: right and have everything laid out before the jury got there.

327
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,399
Speaker 2: You know, the worst thing, not the worst thing, but

328
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,320
Speaker 2: a horrible, horrible move, is for you not to be

329
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 2: organized and methodical and have everything ready for the jury.

330
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:52,440
Speaker 2: They hate bs and people wasting their time. So it's

331
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,199
Speaker 2: going to take a lot to put this case on

332
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 2: a lot of evidence to Marshall. And that's what I'm

333
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 2: waiting to see. And it just just we keep hearing

334
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 2: more and more and more. For instance, like Jennifer Soto

335
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,600
Speaker 2: saying that Stern's sexybus and her daughter was not evil.

336
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 2: H poor baby girl.

337
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 1: Your book gives such great advice for Oh, are.

338
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 2: You're going to jump out and pretend like you read

339
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 2: the book Okay, go ahead. It's true. Though it's true

340
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,880
Speaker 2: that it's got a lot of good advice, it's not

341
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 2: true that you read it. Should my calumn read a book?

342
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 2: What's not happening?

343
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 1: Well, you know there was a time in high school

344
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: I would get not cliff notes, but Walt notes.

345
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,199
Speaker 2: You know what's funny. I wrote a book. It was

346
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 2: Death on the D List, and it involved a lot

347
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 2: a string of celebrity murders. And I'm not going to

348
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,680
Speaker 2: tell you who did it, just in case you read it.

349
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 2: But David said, you know, this sounds a lot like

350
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: So and So. One of the one of the characters

351
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 2: was then producer who you know I loved in Siole,

352
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: But there were a lot of other not him because

353
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 2: I love him. But other TV characters in the book

354
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 2: were actually patterned after people I knew, or that I

355
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: had interacted with, or with whom I interacted with Cheryl

356
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 2: for you, and some of them were matched together to

357
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 2: create a character. And David shut up. David said, aren't

358
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 2: you worried? You know, if they're portrayed like this, they

359
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 2: might get mad at you. I'm like, you think TV

360
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 2: people would read a book? Okay, See, that's not happening. Okay,

361
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 2: they can't even know. Nobody's going to read a book.

362
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 2: I don't care if it's war in peace. That's my

363
00:21:54,160 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 2: told story Cheryl, not told story, told stoy. Okay. Anyway, Yeah,

364
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 2: I'm not afraid that Cheryl's going to miss the work

365
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 2: reading a book. But that said, she's the best forensic

366
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:17,479
Speaker 2: expert I know, period, hands down, Cheryl. Oh, did I

367
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 2: tell you how proud I am of you and the

368
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 2: Wolfenbarger case. I am so overwhelmed by you cracking the

369
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 2: Melissa Wolfenburger case. I mean, the wolf of Burger case

370
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 2: was called for twenty plus years, never let go of it.

371
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: And when I say you aren't the best forensic expert,

372
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 2: and I.

373
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 4: Know, I hope you're listen, Joe Scott Morgan, because not

374
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 4: only do you have the expertise, you have the heart

375
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 4: and the will power and the perseverance which all goes

376
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 4: together to crack.

377
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 2: A cold case. And you did it. You did it, Cheryld.

378
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: I appreciate that, Nancy, but I'm going to tell you

379
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: I have never done anything of substance in my life

380
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: by myself, and you have been there from day one.

381
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: So has Joe Scott Morgan and Angie Arnold and all

382
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: these other people that willingly gave their time and talents.

383
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: And you know what, when I look back on all

384
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 1: the people that said, yes, I will help, Yes I'll

385
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 1: give you my best advice or opinion or whatever, it

386
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: paid off. It paid off big. But you know, if

387
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: it weren't for you and saying hey, you need to

388
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: do a podcast, that witness would have never come forward.

389
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 2: So full circle. Well, look here you go trying to

390
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 2: give other people the credit, but anybody listening today, Cheryl

391
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: did it. She led the charge the cases saw And

392
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 2: when I was with my Lissa's mother and sister just

393
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: recently with Cheryl, I was so I don't even have

394
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: the word to say. When I would look at her

395
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,239
Speaker 2: mom and just suffering in her eyes, there were just

396
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 2: big pools of sorrow. But finally she knows her daughter's

397
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: killer is behind bars, and I know she probably doesn't

398
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: have words to thank you, so on behalf of everybody.

399
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 2: I am so grateful for you, Cheryl. You've been there

400
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 2: from the get go, and God will we'll be together

401
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: all the way till the end. I guess we'll be

402
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: on our rascals trying to solve cases.

403
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put a blue light on mine.

404
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: Don't worry. I'll be saying move over be a gonna

405
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 2: solve itself. As soon as I hear.

406
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: Move over Bee, I'll be like, Naick, is that you?

407
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 2: You know what's mean? Okay, I'm running up for bye.

408
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: Buddy, Bye honey. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is the

409
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: Prime Roundup with Zones Heaven