WEBVTT - Ben Folds 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.600 Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.840 Studio on iHeart Radio. My name is Jordan runt Dog. 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.920 But enough about me. I'm not even gonna try to 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:12.000 play it cool. My guest today is one of my 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.200 all time favorite artists. I first knew him as the 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:19.400 piano pounding frontman of the nineties alternative trio Ben Folds Five, 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:24.279 whereas flamboyant, almost punkish virtuosity and ingenuity on his instrument 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.800 brought to mind Jimmy Hendrix. That is, if Hendricks traded 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:31.800 his six strings stratocaster for a Baldwin Baby Grant. With 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.519 the Five and a series of solo albums and EPs 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.960 like Rocking the Suburbs, Songs for Silverman and Way to Normal, 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.760 he solidified his reputation as one of the finest songwriters 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.919 this side of Randy Newman and Harry Nielsen. He's a 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:49.480 brilliant melodist and an immensely gifted lyricist, writing insightful character 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.320 studies with a novelist sigh for detail. Music just seems 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.160 to pour out of him, as he demonstrates during almost 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:58.160 each of his concerts when he makes up a song 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.920 on the spot. Now crafting a song with unlimited time 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.200 and the privacy of your own home is one thing, 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.040 but doing so before an audience of thousands is quite another. 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:12.520 This spontaneous act of artistic bravery made a huge impression 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.000 on me as a young music lover an amateur player. 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.080 To me, it was like watching a magician pulling a 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.080 rabbit out of his hat, only to realize there was 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:25.800 no trick. It actually was magic. These impromptu songs were 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:29.600 both a display of confident technical mastery and an exuberant 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.200 expression of joy, all wrapped up with a subversive title, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.880 which was more often than not, Rock This Bitch. I 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:39.240 spent a great deal of time as a young amateur 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.160 musician watching in the crowd during his concerts, wondering how 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.120 in the hell he was able to tap into this 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:49.400 bottomless well of creativity with what appeared to be total fearlessness. 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.520 As an older amateur musician and you know, full time 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.920 human being, I'm still trying to figure it out now 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.640 he's trying to help us along with this new podcast, 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:04.640 Lightning Bugs conversations with Ben Folds Throughout the series, he 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:09.440 demystifies the artistic process in a practical, scientific way by 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.480 exploring creativity and its many forms. The series kicks off 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:17.280 with an interview with anthropologist Augustine Fuentes, who argues that 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.320 creativity was and is an evolutionary necessity. It's in all 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.560 of us and has a practical place and everyone's everyday life, 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.320 regardless of profession. Yeah, it's become a cliche to say 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:32.040 that everyone is creative, but the Lightning Bugs podcast proves 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:36.240 it with science and compelling discussions. I found the show 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:39.840 to be inspiring an essential listening. I recommended it to 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.320 so many of my friends. Even if you have no 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.360 interest in music, it doesn't matter in the slightest. His 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:49.639 guests are incredibly varied, ranging from comedian Bob Sagett to 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.960 spiritual activist Mary Ann Williamson and business titan Jeff Lawson. 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.320 There are music therapists, actors and TV show runners, and 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.520 a choreographer end to further melt my brain. Each episode 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.920 ends with an impromptu song. In case you didn't pick 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.720 up on it, I'm absolutely thrilled to welcome Mr ben Folds. 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.200 I hope you enjoy our discussion as much as I did. Then, 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.840 thank you so much for taking the time this morning, 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.000 your time, I really appreciate it. It's such as such 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.920 an honor. Uh well, first off, even an amazing new 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.919 podcast called Lightning Bugs Conversations with Ben Folds, which demystifies 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.600 the creative process and takes the position that regardless of occupation, 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.200 everyone is creative and to prove it, here's the science. 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:34.040 What is the genesis of the show? How did it 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.880 first come together? Well? I think it probably probably really 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:42.600 the seeds probably were planted in the past decade or 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:47.520 so as I've been going about for arts funding, because 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.160 one of the one of the things when you trace 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:53.840 it back and you see the lack of response and 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:59.240 the lack of action and investing in essentially creativity, you 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:04.200 begin to real is that we undervalue creativity and we 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:08.680 misunderstand that it's something that's just for the arts sector, 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.360 that is just for a little little artist making little 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.480 trinkets on the side. And while that makes everyone happy, 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.240 it doesn't put food on the table. But then when 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.200 you start to kind of roll that back, what you realize, 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.919 or you start to look underneath the hoods, what you 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.960 realize is that the the the arts are a big, 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.920 big economic driver. And furthermore, any business is successful is 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.479 a creative business. And then you start to kind of 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:35.919 go even further, and you're like, wait a minute, people 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.599 wouldn't have survived as a species if it weren't for creativity. 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.039 So it kind of gets bigger and bigger, and and 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.120 the appreciation of it, even from my angle, has grown. 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.960 And so what I've wanted to do is is really 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:53.240 kind of reinstate people's self esteem about their own creativity 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.280 because that is key to our survival and flourishing. So 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.280 that's really that's a long way of saying it, but 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:01.720 it did take a decade and a half to come 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.560 to that. So so you know, taking seventy seconds to 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:08.800 explain it, I guess makes sense. I mean, you're right there. 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.600 There's a point. I feel like that every kid, at 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:13.960 some point in their life gets told either through words 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.400 or actions, that yeah, that you're you're you're good, but 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.840 you're not good enough. That meaning like you're not good 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.440 enough to actually make it pay, you know, And that's 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:24.960 that's such a terrible thing to to do, because I 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.200 think about it's a very Western way of looking at it. 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:30.520 In the West, we we we take musicians, we other them, 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.120 We put them up on a stage, put them up 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:34.400 on on a literal pedestal. And sit back and kind 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.640 of watch. And then you look at cultures where music 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:38.920 is is a way of life and it's something that 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.480 that is everybody is involved with every day. I mean, 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:43.440 how do you combat that, how do you really sort 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.000 of integrate it back into into everyday life. Well, I 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.039 think you have to just I'd like to think what 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:52.960 I'm doing with the podcast is slowly getting to that point, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:58.960 you know, just by showing one after another guests who 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:03.200 are creative in different ways, and then uh, you know, 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:09.479 having anthropologists on or musicologist or neurologist anyone to kind 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.000 of then explain a little bit of of the importance 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:16.680 of creativity and evolution, uh, in the way our brains 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.200 work from day to day. If you just take music 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.240 for instance, I mean, we are bombarded with music all 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:28.200 day long, and so one could argue, well, music is 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.240 a part of everyone's life, but we're passive in that. 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:35.160 You know, like, like the way the human species evolved, 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:40.040 it seems to be that we were active in it. 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:42.520 You know, you sing about this, You sing about that, 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.520 you sit around at the end of the day after 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.520 you've done your whether it's hunting and gathering or whatever 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.839 the human species was doing at any particular time in 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:56.160 our evolution. And we are trading ideas through songs, we're 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.520 actually healing, meaning that that everyone's always kind of understood. 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:01.920 They could say a baby to sleep, or they could 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:08.080 sing to someone to calm them down. Conflict resolution, empathy, celebration, 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.480 all these things. People were doing those and in many, many, 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:15.440 many cultures are still doing it. But we've yeah, you 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:20.480 said westernized, we've commercialized music in a way. And when 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.800 you say putting on a pestle, we've given license to 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:28.160 a certain section of the population to be unnaturally popular 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.080 at it while the rest of us sit around and 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.000 and and watch it. And while I think that that's 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.880 fun and that's that's that's that's a thing, you know, 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.680 at the same time, it has sort of led to 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:45.880 a framework. And the framework is that those people are 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:50.880 creative and we are not. And those people are frivolous 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:55.040 and we are practical. To be practical is to be creative, 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.040 and to be creative is not frivolous at all. And 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.720 it's completely unnatural what we're And although you know, maybe 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:03.960 in ten thousand years of evolution will catch up to 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:07.440 the rock concert, how goddamn weird that is I mean, 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:08.960 you're right. Mean. One of my favorite guests that you 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:11.120 had on the show was Augustin Flintes. It was an 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.880 anthropologist who effectively said what you just said, that the 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.280 creativity was an evolutionary necessity. And he was talking about 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.080 how he was talking to somebody who came up to 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.040 him after a seminar and said, yeah, I don't you know, 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.960 I'm just not creative. And he said, well, what is 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.400 it that you do. I'm a scientist. Well you're a scientist. 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.600 That's you would hope that that that people. I mean, 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.520 science is all about creativity. Creativity, like you said, isn't 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.280 you know, just just fingerpainting or banging a triangle in 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:38.040 the back of a choir class or something. I mean, 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.640 it is all around us. You know, there are practical benefits. 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.120 It is. It is and and it's a matter when 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:50.000 someone's not happy with what they're doing, Um, it's it's 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.240 I mean, it's very possible that they just don't have 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.360 I mean, I say they we I mean anytime I've 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.559 been in in something that I didn't have some kind 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:04.680 of creed of agency or some you know, some sort 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.640 of collaborative creativity something inside it. God that makes you 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:10.760 a lot happier about it. I remember working at a 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.320 print shop when I was a teenager, and you know, 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.240 my job is to go in six hours a day 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:22.120 and just look at every single cigarette package. They were 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.400 yet to be folded. You know, they're coming off of 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.920 some kind of conveyor belt or something, and we're supposed 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.480 to look at one after another for six hours to 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.400 see if there were any smudges or anything on them, 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.920 you know. And and that's about as uncreative as it 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:43.120 gets to squint at thousands and thousands of cigarette rappers 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.160 to see which has inconsistencies or smudges on it and 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.520 put it aside. But I figured out this little way 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.120 that me and my kind of partner, because they would 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.320 pair us up, could do it really fast. And it 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.800 was fun. Like suddenly it's like I'd come up with 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.600 some thing, he'd come up with something. We figured it out. 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:04.600 I do half of it, he'd do the other half. 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.120 Flew through it in a day, and we got in 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:10.280 trouble for breaking the curve because they had a certain 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.920 productivity quotation that they needed to hit. And and furthermore, 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.320 I was not to talk anymore because I was spreading 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:22.120 bad ideas throughout the print shop that Luke or something. 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.079 It was rough, but you know I thought about that. 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.280 I was like, you know, I was happy for like 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:31.080 two days doing this and I was giving them high productivity. 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:33.360 But that's not the way we think, you know, we 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:35.880 don't think that way. Like instead of instead of like 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:40.080 the boss man going, wow, you know, this kid is happier, 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.520 he's come up with something and we're more productive. He thought, shit, 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:46.400 I'm gonna lose my job because all of a sudden 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:49.319 it's shown that we can do three times as much 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.160 and I'll be expected to continue that rate. And I 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.040 want this kid to shut up, and we're putting those 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.920 rappers back in the bin. I mean that that is 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:02.840 a a terrifying, very very cool hand luke like illustration 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.280 of it is really well fine, but wow, I mean, 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.160 but that's a great illustration of creativity has all sorts 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.200 of practical benefits. I mean, well, let me ask you. 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.600 Your your podcast is called lightning Bugs, and and lightning 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:16.440 Bugs is an image that you used in the title 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:18.319 of your your memoir a few years back. I want 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:19.839 to ask you more about that. Why do you keep 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.680 coming back to that metaphor why is it a Is 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.200 it a touchstone for you? Well, I mean it's stuck 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.080 because it was in a book and the book was 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.440 published and in his Littering the Planet now, so uh, 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.640 it gives it an attachment, as you'd understand, as you promote, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.600 you know, the things that you do, it attaches itself 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.640 to something else and then further's the brand of that. Honestly, 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:45.199 that's probably the main reason. But there is a good 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:50.040 conceptual reason as well, which is that it is about creativity, 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.400 and creativity as far as my metaphor for it comes 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.440 from a dream when I was a kid that was 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.560 about lightning bugs and catching them in a jar. And 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.679 while that's cruel, the the idea that there's a flicker 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.520 that you see and that you have to chase that flicker. 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.360 You know, sometimes even after it's not a flicker anymore. 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.640 If you watch a firefly, it lights up and you 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.760 see it then and then it sort of disappears for 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:16.960 a while and you're not sure where he went, and 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.199 then lights up again. And I think that's the way 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:24.240 chasing creativity is. I think that metaphor works for continues 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.079 to work for me for like loads of reasons that 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:31.320 that I think of only after like later like, oh wow, 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.400 you know, in the daylight you can't see the flickers 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.280 at all. So I think of the daylight as being 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.400 when you're overly aware of technique and process. So when 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.200 you turn the lights on in your head and you 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:47.360 really become a lucid thinker, suddenly all those creative ideas 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.280 or are harder to chase because it's harder to see. 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:53.080 It's harder to see the flicker. Reminds me of the 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.880 discussion you're having with the with Sarah Barelli's where she 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:57.840 was talking about how when she she first started writing 0:12:57.880 --> 0:12:59.400 songs that just sort of came from her, and then 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.000 when she started learning theory and technique, it kind of 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.439 spoiled the allore a little bit initially, and it kind 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.520 of it was she felt almost stifled by it. And 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:08.960 it's I know, that's got to be kind of a 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.080 tricky thing too, because you you know, you have someone 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.520 like Picasso who you think of as being this rule breaker, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.120 but then you look at his early work and it 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.240 looks very classical. It looks like so I guess you 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:19.720 kind of need to learn the rules in order to 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.640 break them. But then's it's a fascinating dichotomy. No, but 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.720 you're exactly like. What you're hitting on is it is 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:30.200 the the great challenge of of art and creativity. You know, 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.319 it's it's if you're if you're diving into the unknown 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:39.000 and into creative ideas, things that you haven't seen before. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.880 Just because of the way we're built, you're heading into 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:47.200 a sea of contradictions. And the contradiction is, you know, 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:51.600 you need to learn technique in order to make something, 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.400 but learned the learning of the technique can be very distracting, 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:57.600 can turn that light on and can make it difficult 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.840 to see. So both those things exist that time. I 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:05.079 think any of our artists worth their salt will at 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:09.160 least admit that that technique is very important, and we'll 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.240 also acknowledge that it can be extremely distracting and it 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.400 can throw you completely off the horse. I would point 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:19.200 out with someone like Sarah Barelli's that she has, for 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:26.120 whatever reason, impeccable singing technique, and she also has a 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.160 no because we've worked together enough for me to know 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:33.560 that she is. She's got one of the best ears. 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:39.160 She's just absolutely insightful. Her talent and her technique is formidable. 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:43.920 She just doesn't like the technique of placing the labels 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:48.000 and the words and certain concepts to it. She would 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.600 prefer someone else to it. And I would add to 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:55.520 that that, as Augustine Flints pointed out Primatologist who was 0:14:55.600 --> 0:15:00.000 on My show, creativity has has evolved as a collaborate 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.000 ative process. So you have one person who is able 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.320 to pull off the technique, and you have another person 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.400 you're collaborating with who might not have the technique but 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.120 has a couple of ideas. That's a collaboration. You were 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.200 saying earlier about how it was integrated into a community 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.440 at one point, music in art in general. And uh, 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:22.600 and as opposed to now when it's just the one 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.760 person who gets exponentially more famous for you know, the 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:27.920 one thing that they're able to do, Yeah, which is 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.560 you know, that's part of the reason why with with 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:35.160 with my recent records, people have considered those because I've 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:37.200 given credit on the front of the record to my 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.840 collaborators rather than just hiring them and putting them on 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.280 the back of the record. Uh, it appears that I 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.080 haven't made a solo record years. They're just as much 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.840 solo as anything I ever did before. Just the way 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:49.280 you put your name on it's kind of like Ben 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.720 Folds five had my name on. It made it look 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.520 more like like a solo thing, that it was a 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.360 collaborative thing, but was actually the opposite. So I suppose 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.400 I've felt like I needed to rectify that that over 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:06.560 the years. The ethos of your show Everyone Is Creative 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.880 is really potent for me, because you are a major 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.280 reason I learned how to play piano, and I wanted 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:14.720 to play your songs, and I love music and I 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.520 love playing. I have never in my entire life I'm three, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:19.280 three years old, I have never been able to write 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.280 a song. I can't do it. I desperately want to. Instead, 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.560 I speak to people who can and hope that some 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:27.280 of their magic rubs off on me, and of course 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.280 it never does. What would you say to someone like 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.560 me who really just struggles. I don't know if it's 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:33.960 self censorship. I don't know if it's fear of failure, 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:35.560 I don't know what it is. What would you say 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.680 to someone like me to try to help break through that? Well, 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.360 my hard asked Russian teacher part which I don't know 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:45.280 why that exists, but there is one voice like that 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:47.360 in the back of my head. You know, the the 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.360 violin teacher that wraps you on the knuckles with the 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.280 ruler when you play a scale wrong, I would say, 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.760 you're not trying hard enough. That's one. That would be 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.840 one side, because there are two forces that play. There 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.520 is how your willpower and then the uh you know, 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:09.000 the inertia of ideas and the fear you have to 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.800 break through and all the all the self censorship. You 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:17.240 have to try harder than UH than your opponent. You 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.000 have to get past that opponent and into the end zone. 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.920 And it never ever was easy for anyone. I fucking 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.600 hate it. I hate writing songs. I do. I've always 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.160 hated writing songs. I think it's hard to do. Every 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:33.200 time I do it. In the middle of it, I'm 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:37.399 convinced it's not original, it's terrible, it's awful, it should 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.120 be thrown away. I'm horrified if I've shown it to anyone. 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.880 I wanted to be gone, and and it just kind 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.800 of have to keep doing it now. That said, the 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.360 other side is my kindness side, which is like, how 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.920 can we soften that opponent up? How can you get 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.399 past that opponent? If you're self centering, you have to 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:58.639 find a way not to do that so much. And 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.840 some of it is going to be confident someone telling you, like, 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.280 you know, one of my guests, Caleb Tisher, is very young. 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.040 He's a tap dancer. He said something really cool, which 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.960 is he he shows some of his stuff that he's 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:14.280 working on to his closest. Yes, people like the equivalent 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:15.960 to like showing it to your mom and having to 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.760 tell you it's great. He needs that. And you know what, 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.160 that's not a bad idea as long as you don't 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.159 take that completely at the heart. If you need some 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:27.520 fuel to get through to be like, man, it's really good, 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.200 there's nothing wrong with that. At some point, your editor 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:33.199 is going to come in. Your editor will come in 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.359 and cut this ship the size you're gonna be, You're 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:39.840 gonna be okay. So I think getting that self censoring 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.120 out of the way is key for some people. That 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.560 is a for some people that that could be alcohol 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.600 or drugs, and I wouldn't recommend that, but you can't. 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.760 You can't ignore that. That has been a big part 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.760 of people creating and it's the easy way out. But 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.040 but there are many other ways that are probably better 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:00.960 because you can probably do a better job is something 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:03.680 if you're not fucked up. I mean, I think, like, 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:09.000 there's no reason why chilling out meditation in your life somehow, 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.919 a little bit of work on yourself so that you 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.200 don't have such low self esteem. To have people like 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:17.880 myself who do make things telling you you can do 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.080 it is not bad, you know, because that's what we 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.960 should be doing. Like what else? I mean? Basically, you 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.720 have to be able to spit out your ideas with 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:31.080 no judgment. You have them there there, you just don't 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.480 like them. You've got an idea right now, you could 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.240 grab one of the guitars behind you and you could 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.639 make something right now, or the piano next to you. 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.359 You could do this immediately. You play the first chord 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.080 you have under your hand or in your head. Just 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.439 play it and then sit and wait. Well, what's the 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.400 next thing? You might say? Nothing, awesome, that's arrest. What's 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:53.800 the next thing? Oh God, I don't know. I guess 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:56.560 I'll repeat the A minor. Hit the A minor again. 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:01.600 What's next? Nothing? Space? Okay, we have a chord space 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:04.639 chord space. Why did you do that? Well, I don't know, 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.080 because he told me to. What's the name of your song? 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:10.600 Because he told me too. There's always something there. You 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:15.800 can follow what happens naturally through that process, and you 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.199 you will make something. Now you're gonna tell me you 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:20.120 don't like it, or it's not good enough, for it's 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.880 not original. What's your problem? I mean, the truth is 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.160 it is real and you've been making it up. I say, 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:37.280 keep building on it. There's a really fascinating clip of 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.920 Paul Simon on Dick Cavit in the mid seventies where 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.480 he's midway. I think he's working on Still Crazy after 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:45.480 all these years and he hasn't finished it, and and 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.560 he goes through all the different harmonic possibilities that he 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:51.000 could that are available to him, and it's it becomes 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.000 like a puzzle. And I wanted to ask you, how 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:57.680 much of songwriting is is problem solving? Oh beautiful question. 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:03.000 Creativity is so much more fun when we're solving a problem. 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:07.000 And problem solving is also a really good distraction. It's 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:09.679 like math. It's like we're not we're not interested in 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:11.760 math until we have to know how far away we 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.439 should park our car from the corner, or we have 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:16.399 to know how much money is left at the end 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.880 of the month. You know, like suddenly math becomes interesting 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:24.480 because you're using it to solve a problem. And creativity 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.600 has that kind of relationship with problem solving too, where 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:29.600 it's a little bit the other way around. When we're 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.040 solving a problem, we've become more interested in what we're doing. 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:35.840 You know, you've got a problem to solve and you 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:37.720 have to come up with a creative way to do it. 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:42.000 So creativity becomes necessity and it feels welcome. And so 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:45.240 I think that that that problem solving and creativity of 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:49.120 any kind just go hand in hand. And Paul Simon 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:53.960 is a very lucid, obsessive songwriter, very thorough and also 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:58.920