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Speaker 1: Pushin. Hi. I'm Phil Donahue and I'm Marlowe Thomas, and

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Speaker 1: we're going on a series of double dates to find

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Speaker 1: out what makes a marriage. Last one of the couples

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Speaker 1: we reached out to was Judge Judith Shinlin, known to

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Speaker 1: the world as Judge Judy, and her husband Jerry Shinedlin.

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Speaker 1: He's a former New York Supreme Court judge. That was

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Speaker 1: a surprise. Two judges in one marriage. What would that

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Speaker 1: be like? Judy said, Jerry, go and take out the garbage.

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Speaker 1: And I looked at her and I said, do you

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Speaker 1: realize that you're speaking to a Supreme Court judge? And

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Speaker 1: she looked at me and she said, put on your

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Speaker 1: robe and take out the garbage. The other surprise was

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Speaker 1: their house. Well, let's just say it was not what

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Speaker 1: we expected. When we got there. We had to double

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Speaker 1: check the address. Wow, it was a palace and she

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Speaker 1: designed it patio. Do you do a lot of parties

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Speaker 1: out here? We do? And you've also done two of

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Speaker 1: weddings here, right, we've done two weddings here. We did

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Speaker 1: three weddings here. Two asked it. Judy brought out a

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Speaker 1: big tray of snacks, quick to point out that she

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Speaker 1: didn't make them herself, and then we settled down to talk.

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Speaker 1: How old were you when you first saw him up

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Speaker 1: with him? I was thirty two, thirty two. What was

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Speaker 1: it that you glommed onto right away? He had shiny shoes.

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Speaker 1: I saw him in a bar and I looked at

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Speaker 1: him and he had a face. I had just finished

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Speaker 1: successfully trying a murder case as a defense attorney. Wow.

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Speaker 1: And it was in the newspaper, or so. Mike Pearl

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Speaker 1: from the New York Post, who was the crime reporter,

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Speaker 1: was interviewing me and she came walking into the bar

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Speaker 1: seeing me surrounded by these lawyers, one of whom was

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Speaker 1: her boss, and came right up to me in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the interview, put her finger in my face

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Speaker 1: and said, and who is this in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the interview? Why did you do that? I thought he

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Speaker 1: was adorable. She wanted to make an impression what she did,

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Speaker 1: and I said, lady, please get your finger out of

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Speaker 1: my face on the middle of an interview, and she did,

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Speaker 1: and we went out for dinner that night, and we

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Speaker 1: saw each other every single night thereafter. So that's how

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Speaker 1: to get to you, huh, I'm telling put your finger

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Speaker 1: on my face. I'm easy. I actually had to drag

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Speaker 1: him to the altar. Yeah I did. I did. He

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Speaker 1: really had no intention of getting married. He had no

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Speaker 1: intention of divorcing. He and his former wife were separated

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Speaker 1: for about three or four years, but he had no

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Speaker 1: one tension of divorcing was a very good thing. He

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Speaker 1: could come out, He could get laid. He could say

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Speaker 1: I can't get serious because I'm married. I said, after

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Speaker 1: a year, I want to see the divorce in the paper,

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Speaker 1: or don't call me anymore. No. Well, one of the

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Speaker 1: things you said was I said to her, why do

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Speaker 1: we need a paper from the government in order for

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Speaker 1: us to be together. It's not necessary. Let's live together.

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Speaker 1: She said, okay, you go ahead and ask my father

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Speaker 1: if we could live together. I said, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to do that. So she took out her calendar and

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Speaker 1: she said pick a date. So how did two judges

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Speaker 1: not become very judgmental to each other? And who takes

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Speaker 1: and Alsie was a great at pleading your case. I

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Speaker 1: am terrific at pleading my case. However, I'm constantly being

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Speaker 1: overruled forgell But seriously, as a bad comedian would say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we judge each other all the time, and I plead

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Speaker 1: my case and he pleads his case. That's what we do,

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Speaker 1: that's what you really Of course, I use my logic

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Speaker 1: to explain why I don't want to live in Connecticut anymore,

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Speaker 1: or why I want to go to sicilianification when you

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Speaker 1: have to talk your husband, your mate into doing it,

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Speaker 1: into thinking that his idea, and also when you're having

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Speaker 1: an argument, each of you has to say, well, why

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Speaker 1: this wasn't fair to this one or that one. I

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Speaker 1: just think it's fascinating. We tend to do the right thing,

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Speaker 1: and as soon as one of us gets to the

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Speaker 1: point where we say, you know that's right, then we're together.

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Speaker 1: And if we can't get to that point, then we argue,

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Speaker 1: and we argue until somebody gives up. And it's usually me.

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Speaker 1: That's true, because that's a reason. The truth is, I'm

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Speaker 1: a very linear thinker. Things illogical if something doesn't make sense,

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Speaker 1: whether it's an argument between us or in life, if

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Speaker 1: something is inconsistent with my history from seeing people, from

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Speaker 1: being a lawyer and a judge for fifty years. If

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Speaker 1: something doesn't make sense to me, it's usually not true,

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Speaker 1: or it's usually not right or it's not going to

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Speaker 1: end up well. Jerry is a linear thinker, but at

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Speaker 1: the end of that thought process is what will make

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Speaker 1: him happy. Yeah, and I have to linear think through Jerry.

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Speaker 1: That may make you happy, but it's not the right

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Speaker 1: thing to do, and sometimes we don't get there, so

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Speaker 1: then we just have a blowout. Are you ever wrong? Rarely?

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Speaker 1: I remember once once you was twelve years old, she

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Speaker 1: said she's wrong? Am I ever wrong? Oh? I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that's really We have a big family and there so

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Speaker 1: there's lots to negotiate it so time coordination things. That's

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Speaker 1: not something that I don't know what Phil is good at,

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Speaker 1: but Jerry is really not good at that. Would that

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Speaker 1: be fairtakeing? I think? So? Now tell me Jerry. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Judy has told us what she's you know, her part

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Speaker 1: that she's good at making the arrangements and stuff. So

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Speaker 1: what's your job? My job is to make suggestions to

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Speaker 1: her and then she takes the suggestions and makes arrangements

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Speaker 1: and she does the appointments. So as he's saying that lightheartedly,

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Speaker 1: but my job is usually to go along with what

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Speaker 1: she says and she accepts your suggestions. No, that's an

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Speaker 1: idea that's a good idea, that's a glimmer of an idea,

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Speaker 1: that's an her Yeah, but it works, that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: It works. It works when you have a blow up.

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Speaker 1: Which one is more likely to be the peacemaker. That

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Speaker 1: has fluctuated over the years. I would say the first

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Speaker 1: twenties or more years, I was the peacemaker, because that's

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Speaker 1: just the way it was. I think Jerry will acknowledge

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Speaker 1: he was a difficult person for a while, and what

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Speaker 1: was it was difficulty more unreasonable. I wouldn't listen necessarily

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Speaker 1: to what she was saying when I would assist that

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Speaker 1: what I was saying was correct and right and it

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Speaker 1: was the thing to do. And as years went on,

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Speaker 1: it just came to me that she has the better

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Speaker 1: ideas most often, and I accepted and I don't struggle

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Speaker 1: with it. And that became more as the marriage went on.

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Speaker 1: As the marriage went on, that became more frequent, and

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Speaker 1: so we get along better. I think Jerry brought more

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Speaker 1: baggage to the marriage than I did. His family. His

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Speaker 1: parents were more dysfunctional than mine. What happened to them

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Speaker 1: was when they were born in Europe, if they didn't

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Speaker 1: behave they would beat the children. Oh that's the way

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Speaker 1: they did it. Yeah, it's not a surprise at all.

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Speaker 1: So when they came to this country, they thought the

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Speaker 1: way to bring up children is to abuse them, to

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Speaker 1: hurt them, to hit them, not understanding that that carries

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Speaker 1: a terrible, terrible result with the child. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: get over. I carried around a lot of garbage from

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Speaker 1: the time that I was a kid, like what couldn't

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Speaker 1: you do? Well? It was hard to get close to

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Speaker 1: another person without thinking that perhaps they're gonna hurt you,

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Speaker 1: because that's the way you grew up. So you know,

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Speaker 1: you had to continually test to see if the person

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Speaker 1: really loved you. Would you love me if I said

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Speaker 1: this to you? Would you love me if I did

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Speaker 1: this to you? So? What kind of a father does

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Speaker 1: that make you? Did you hit your children? Never ever

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Speaker 1: laid a hand on them. I learned it from a

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Speaker 1: negative point of view. A negative upbringing actually gave me

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Speaker 1: a positive sense of how to bring up children. When

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Speaker 1: I was seventeen, I joined the Navy. Oh I don't

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Speaker 1: blame during the war and spent two years in the Navy.

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Speaker 1: Then when I came out, my head was better. You know,

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Speaker 1: they say you're going to the Navy as a boy

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Speaker 1: and you come out as a man. Well, in my case,

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Speaker 1: that happen to be true. And did you go to

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Speaker 1: law school afterwards? Went to college afterward? Then you have

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Speaker 1: a short relatively twelvey, a short term marriage which Jerry had,

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Speaker 1: which produced three children, three terrific kids. And I think

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Speaker 1: he had a lot of guilt with regard to leaving

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Speaker 1: his wife and children that was long before he met me.

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Speaker 1: All of that was a lot of baggage to come

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Speaker 1: to a new relationship with. And let me put it

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Speaker 1: to you this way, honestly, because you want honesty in

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Speaker 1: your chapter, correct, you would like I am a girl

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Speaker 1: who always needs a project. With Jerry, I knew I

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Speaker 1: was getting a project. I knew it wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: be an easy So the first twenty years I was

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Speaker 1: really trying to make up for all of this. You

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Speaker 1: had a miserable childhood, You feel guilty about leaving your kids.

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Speaker 1: There was lots of turmoil that he probably couldn't pinpoint

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Speaker 1: in his brain, but he knew it was not making

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Speaker 1: him feel content. And it was my job, I felt

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Speaker 1: during that time to make it better. Well, then what

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Speaker 1: happened was that my father died and my father was

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Speaker 1: my champion ahead one of those right, I know you did.

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Speaker 1: And when you lose that, you say, all right, somebody

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Speaker 1: has to take care of me. I've been taking care

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Speaker 1: of you for twenty years. Now you take care of me.

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Speaker 1: This is what I need. And if you can't do that,

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Speaker 1: we just can't be together. And he was totally on

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Speaker 1: the custom. It's too amorphic. You can't say take care

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Speaker 1: of me? What does that mean? I mean, how do

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Speaker 1: you want me to take care of you? Do you

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Speaker 1: want me to carry you from place to place? Do

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Speaker 1: you want me to buy you things? Do you want

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Speaker 1: me to feed you? Do you want me to keep

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Speaker 1: you warm? What you have to do is tell me,

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Speaker 1: use your words, tell me what you want me to

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Speaker 1: do to take care of you. Right? And she said,

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Speaker 1: just take care of me. I said, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how to do that. And honestly, it wasn't that he

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Speaker 1: was being stubborn. I don't think he was being stubborn.

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Speaker 1: I think that honestly, he didn't think that I would

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Speaker 1: do it. No, I didn't. He didn't think that I

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Speaker 1: would do it. She said to me, if you can't

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Speaker 1: new with this, I'm going to divorce you, and I said,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, I dare you. And the next day I

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Speaker 1: got divorce papers. Right, I mean, it's seriously, he really

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Speaker 1: didn't think I would do it. I had a friend.

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Speaker 1: I said, just serving with the papers. We'll have more

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Speaker 1: after a quick break. We're back with Judge Judy and

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Speaker 1: Jerry Shinedlin. When we left off, they were remembering a

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Speaker 1: tough time in nineteen ninety when Yep, Judy actually followed

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Speaker 1: through with her threat they got divorced. I missed her

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Speaker 1: her presence the first week that we was oparated, because

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Speaker 1: we didn't see each other for the first time in years.

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Speaker 1: Every single day I was in the Supreme Court, Judy

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Speaker 1: was in the Family Court. We'd always be together after court, always,

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Speaker 1: and this was a strange experience for me not seeing Judy.

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Speaker 1: Were you in the same building, same building? Were in

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Speaker 1: the same building. So there came a point where I

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Speaker 1: called her on the phone. I said, what are you doing?

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Speaker 1: You want to go to dinner? And she would say yes,

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Speaker 1: which surprised me. But we went to dinner. Meanwhile, the

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Speaker 1: papers were all signed. Did you need to get to

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Speaker 1: the point to give her what she wanted? What happened

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Speaker 1: was we'd gradually, during this period of one year, grew

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Speaker 1: closer together because I missed her terribly and I couldn't

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Speaker 1: stand the fact that somebody fixed her up with the

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Speaker 1: guy that was driving me crazy. So I would call

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Speaker 1: her up and say, did he kiss you? He said no,

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Speaker 1: and she and she said it didn't even work well

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Speaker 1: because we went to this restaurant and the waiter came

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Speaker 1: over and he said, I'll have the roast beef and

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Speaker 1: big glass of cabernet. And she said to the waiter,

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Speaker 1: so this guy never saw her again. I was pleased

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Speaker 1: to hear that story because I knew eventually she had

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Speaker 1: to come back to me. That's a scream. And did

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Speaker 1: you miss him too? I missed it. I missed it.

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Speaker 1: I want to get back to when you got back together.

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Speaker 1: That's the most interesting thing, because you know one divorce,

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Speaker 1: I said, Okay, I was married to him. Now we

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Speaker 1: even see each other all the time, we'll have to

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Speaker 1: get married for again. Interestingly enough, we're walking downtown Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: I picked her up from work, and I said, you

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Speaker 1: know this is silly. I'm uncomfortable being with you all

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Speaker 1: the time and not being married to you. I said,

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Speaker 1: let's get married again. She said, well, I mean, how

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Speaker 1: are we going to do that? I said, my ex

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Speaker 1: law partner is a Supreme Court judge. He's right up

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Speaker 1: the street. We can go right into the clerk's office

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Speaker 1: and get a license. And of course, as soon as

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Speaker 1: they saw us, they accommodated us with both judges. Got

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Speaker 1: the license, immediately called up my law partner and said,

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Speaker 1: are you busy? Said no, I said, well, we're coming

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Speaker 1: up to get married again. I called my older son,

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Speaker 1: who had a law practice in law of Manhattan. He

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Speaker 1: was my best man. She called her girlfriend of forty

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Speaker 1: years that was her maid of honor. So we went

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Speaker 1: up to my partner's chambers and he performed the following ceremony.

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Speaker 1: To me, he said, you take this woman to be

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Speaker 1: your wolf, a wedded wife forever and good times and bad,

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Speaker 1: and sickness and health, and to each I said yes,

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Speaker 1: looked at her and said you take this man to

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Speaker 1: be your husband. She said yes, in good times or bad.

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Speaker 1: And she looked at him and said, in good times

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Speaker 1: or forget it. Herbie said, this is a real tear jerk.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's funny. She cracks a joke about it. But

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Speaker 1: I think it's romantic that they got remarried. They also

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Speaker 1: came back to each other already knowing what makes the

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Speaker 1: other one tick. Do you know the triggers that each

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Speaker 1: other has? Like you know the thing that will set

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Speaker 1: them up? And absolutely so you know what they are?

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Speaker 1: So yes, So what do you do? Do you like?

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Speaker 1: Avoid them? I avoid them? He sometimes? He sometimes still

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Speaker 1: he still tests. That's interesting. No, but really you try

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Speaker 1: to change, but you can't change. There's something that just damaged.

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Speaker 1: That's the way you put it, just damaged and you

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Speaker 1: can't repair it. Being damaged causing the testing of my

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Speaker 1: devotion to him. And it used to happen very often,

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Speaker 1: and it happens less frequently. Yes, we get old, you

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Speaker 1: know you asked about I think that we change in

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Speaker 1: what our needs are. For instance, you you were working

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Speaker 1: in Chicago. You got married in nineteen eighty, right, yes,

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Speaker 1: but your show was still in Chicago in nineteen eighty. Yes,

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Speaker 1: your show was in Chicago for another four years. Right?

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Speaker 1: Do my homework too? To the last kid got to

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Speaker 1: high school. That was our deal. Okay, but that's different,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure that that was difficult, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that there were accommodations that had to be made, and yeah, scrabbled.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I'm so interested in accommodation, because I

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Speaker 1: think a marriage cannot be successful and be strong if

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Speaker 1: one person says it has to be this and it

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Speaker 1: has to be that. When we decided to get married,

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Speaker 1: and I had said, I'm not living in Winnetka, and

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Speaker 1: he said, I can't live in LA. So we made

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Speaker 1: New York home because it was closer to Chicago, and

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Speaker 1: he said, I just have got to get my boys

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Speaker 1: to high school. I got it. I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: be taken out of my freshman year or software year

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Speaker 1: in high school. So where did you live? I moved

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Speaker 1: from LA to New York. But the point is that

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Speaker 1: we made a life that neither of us ever lived here.

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Speaker 1: Now we have a New York apartment. None of this

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Speaker 1: was in Chicago or LA. We just made a new life.

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Speaker 1: And I really appreciate that about how we handled it.

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Speaker 1: He was willing to move his show, but not willing

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Speaker 1: to hurt his children, and I was not willing to

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Speaker 1: hurt his children. So we made a path for ourselves,

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Speaker 1: and the kids came to and we had four bedrooms,

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Speaker 1: and then they grew up, and then they come occasionally

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Speaker 1: and they come. Now, okay to exactly, but if people

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Speaker 1: don't accommodate each other, if you don't give up certain things,

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Speaker 1: or round off certain things, or just downright change something,

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Speaker 1: you two people aren't alike. They're not the same. I

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Speaker 1: am so not like him and he is so not

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Speaker 1: like me. It's true, we really are different. But the

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Speaker 1: important thing is we figured out that that's okay. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we thought a lot at first, but it just takes time.

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Speaker 1: Every young couple goes through it. Young people aren't getting

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Speaker 1: married anymore. Nobody's getting married when they're twenty two or

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Speaker 1: twenty four or twenty six or twenty eight. They start

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Speaker 1: thinking about it when they're thirty. They hardly get out

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Speaker 1: of your house before they're thirty. That's just this generation healthier,

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Speaker 1: healthier than our generation. Yeah. I mean, if if a

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Speaker 1: daughter wasn't married by at times he was twenty four.

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Speaker 1: In the Catholic world, you know your mother went to church. Yes,

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Speaker 1: many of those marriages did not survive. Women. I think

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Speaker 1: more than men, when they enter into a relationship, think

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Speaker 1: that whatever behavior is annoying to them, they will be

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Speaker 1: able to modify and change in the other person. In

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Speaker 1: the other person. And if you marry somebody thinking that

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Speaker 1: you're going to change them, which I did, Mia Coppa,

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Speaker 1: don't try to teach a pig to sing. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: work and it annoys the pig. But what about the

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Speaker 1: fact that he did change? He didn't. He didn't change.

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Speaker 1: He learned to use a calendar better, he learned to

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Speaker 1: write down Octope but twenty first Judy's birthday. What is

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Speaker 1: difficult about living with you? Nothing, that's the difficult. That's

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Speaker 1: the difficulty because you must have had to change something

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Speaker 1: in you to be able to accommodate another person. Everybody does.

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Speaker 1: I did. I used to sweat the small stuff. I

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Speaker 1: had to give it up. During that year that we

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Speaker 1: weren't together, I did a little growing myself. It was

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Speaker 1: a realization that we were better as a couple than

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Speaker 1: we were separately. You have to have that feeling that

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Speaker 1: is intangible. My father said to me that he saw

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Speaker 1: my mother a dance at the Jewish Center for the

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Speaker 1: first time when she was eighteen and he was with

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Speaker 1: his best friend. From the first minute he looked at her,

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Speaker 1: he saw her and he said, I gotta have it.

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Speaker 1: I saw him and I said, I have to have

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Speaker 1: that like forever. Whatever it is, I'm going to make

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Speaker 1: this work. And he evidently the same thing. You evidently

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Speaker 1: the same thing Chicago, New York. I'm going to accommodate

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Speaker 1: it because there were a lot of girls in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: but you saw this one, this girl, and you really

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Speaker 1: had to have this girl. So whatever it had to

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Speaker 1: be in your your life, that's what you did that.

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Speaker 1: You can't identify it because the truth of the matter is,

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Speaker 1: no matter how you slice it, and no matter how

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Speaker 1: many words you use, it all is irrelevant unless when

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Speaker 1: you touch your mate, there's a special feeling. When you

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Speaker 1: speak to her, there's a special feeling. When you hugger,

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Speaker 1: there's a special feeling. I think the foundation of a

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Speaker 1: good marriage ones that last is a deep love and

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Speaker 1: a devotion to your mate. If you look at your

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Speaker 1: mate and you love her as we do, then it

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Speaker 1: all works, no matter little irritations. They fall into place,

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Speaker 1: but you can't replace the touch, the kiss, making love,

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Speaker 1: and the main thing is that she has a tremendous

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Speaker 1: ability to make me laugh. And there you have it.

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Speaker 1: What makes the marriage of Judge Judy and Jerry shinin

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Speaker 1: last This has been so much and you are the

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Speaker 1: nicest man that ever lived. Well, that's the problem with

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Speaker 1: this interview. That is the problem with this Somebody said

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Speaker 1: something nice to me. She can't until next time. I'm

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Speaker 1: filled down a he and I'm Marlow Thomas how't told

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Speaker 1: us how well? I'm telling you. He's different. He's selfish, Jerry,

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Speaker 1: but he's adorable. He is he is adorable. Suffer you

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Speaker 1: have to come to my rescue double Day. There's a

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Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. The show was created by US

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Speaker 1: and produced by Sarah Lilly. Michael Bahari is associate producer.

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Speaker 1: Musical adaptations of It Had to Be You by Sellwagon, Simfinette,

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Speaker 1: Marlo and I are executive producers, along with Mia Lobell

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Speaker 1: and Letal Molad from Pushkin and special thanks to Jacob Weisberg,

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Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, Heather Fain, John Snars, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler,

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Speaker 1: Emily Rostek, Jason Gambrel, Paul Williams, and Bruce Kluger. If

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Speaker 1: you like our show, please remember to share, rate and

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Speaker 1: review Thanks for listening