WEBVTT - Is The GameStop Trade Really A Political Rebellion? 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.640 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:20.360 I'm Joe Wisn't All, and I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy, I 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.880 can't tell whether I feel bad for you, uh that 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.920 you're in Hong Kong and missing out on US trading 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.720 hours these days, or whether I'm really jealous of you 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.000 that you're in Hong Kong and missing out on US 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.800 trading hours these days. Feel bad for me? I feel 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:37.319 bad for me. I would love to be in New 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:41.199 York during like the most dramatic moments of some of 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:44.400 the recent US market action that we've seen. Yeah, no, 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:45.800 I do feel bad for you. I mean it is 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.840 really fun, Like I've definitely never before had a whole 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.600 like Bloomberg monitor just devoted to the real time price 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.680 of game Stop. So that's pretty cool. On the other hand, 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:03.360 you are missing out blessedly just truly awful takes about 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.720 all this, and every cable news channel and pundit and 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.399 everything is like pontificating about what all this means. And 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.360 I'm not um, I don't feel bad that you're missing that. Okay, 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.880 So it's true. I haven't seen a lot of what 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:22.039 the US television channels are saying I will I will 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:27.080 say though, I'm on Twitter basically at nighttime in the US, 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.080 and so I get a lot of cranks and crazy 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.520 e's around, you know, the hours of like midnight to 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.120 four am, So I do see some of the conspiracy 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:38.800 theories stuff. I get enough of that, Yeah, exactly, But um, 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.720 I get the sense that I'm missing something in the 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:49.320 whole Game Stop commentary that that has been annoying you. Yes, So, 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.280 I mean, look, I love this story and I don't 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.560 really want it to end any time soon. Let's get 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.200 that out. And I've learned. I've already like learned a 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.320 bunch just like over the last week about how the 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.640 markets were, Like it's been very educational. But I do 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.720 think there is this proclivity of everyone who has an 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.200 agenda to find a way to like work it in. 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.080 And you have like Donald Trump Jr. Talking about it, 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.800 and Ted Cruise and AOC and Dave Portnoy and the 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:21.639 winkle Foss brothers and like Glenn Greenwald and Mad Stoler 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.600 and like literally anyone who has an opinion on anything, 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:31.320 the Game Stop trade bolsters their view. So I totally 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.320 agree with that agenda point. There's something for everyone in 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.040 the game Stop story, whether it's true or not. But 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:43.040 but I do think the fact that it's this sort 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.919 of raw, sharsh test for a bunch of people talking 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.840 about it, like, I think that is part of the 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:52.400 game Stop phenomenon, and so I think you have to 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.720 talk about it and you have to recognize its importance. Yeah, 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.880 And a big question too, is like is there some 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.480 thing like political, like because they're a big class warfare 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.239 element of this, and like, obviously the enter is kind 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:08.880 of yes, and people like on the Wall Street bets 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:10.959 love the idea that they're like sticking it to the bankers. 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.200 On the other hand, you know, you have these people 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.440 like this is finally the mission of Occupy Wall Street 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.160 is now but fulfilled. And like, my eyes just roll 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:21.560 out the side of my head when I see stuff 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.360 like that. So we're gonna try to figure out, like 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.200 what does this mean? Is there a political message? Is 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.560 this Occupy Wall Street two point oh? Or is this 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.040 just something fun? Is it just a trade? Like what 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:37.440 does this all mean? All right, Um, this is gonna 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:39.880 be an interesting episode. Let's let's do it. And we 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.640 should note we have we have not one, but two 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:47.880 guests because it's such a such a polarizing topic, I suppose. Yeah, 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.120 we're gonna have a debate, although I'm worried that our 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.600 guests are going to be too friendly and then it's 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:54.360 just gonna be me and you fighting against each other. 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:57.000 That's okay. But I'm very excited about our two guests today, 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.240 two of our absolute favorite uh people here to the 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.520 sharpest people who understand markets and market structure and finance 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.840 and even politics. Very excited. Um, We're gonna be speaking 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.960 with George Perks, he is a macro strategist at Bespoke 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:16.240 Investment Group. And Jill Carlson, she is a partner at 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:18.920 Slow Ventures and does a lot. We've talked to her 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.960 in the past about bitcoin and blockchain stuff and money, 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.159 and they've also they've both written, um, I guess you 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.320 could say takes for the last week. George has a 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.200 great piece up on Business Insider that you should check out, 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.120 and Jill has a great piece on Coin Desk that 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.760 you should check out. Um. And so we're gonna we're 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.520 gonna hopefully get the full range of perspective here. So 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.760 George and Jill, thank you very much for joining us. Yeah, 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:47.000 thank you. And and I will know the irony that 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.560 both George and I have now contributed to the sea 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:51.919 of bad takes and are continuing to do so. No, 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:54.000 both of you are, both of your takes, both you, 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.440 both of your takes are the only good takes. Sometimes 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.720 the best take is that the takes are bad, and 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:01.400 you know, we we can't have when having someone saying that. 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.440 And I think both joll and I tried to do 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.720 a little bit of that this past week. The ultimate 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.800 meta take, the Meda take. That's what, that's what. That's 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.880 my role, the Meda take. Okay, um, let's start and 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.840 maybe we'll get on some opening statements for me west 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.440 Aret with George, George, what you're you're more on the view, 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.359 it's like this is a trade to an interesting trade. 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.440 It probably does not fit into anyone's political narrative to well, 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.279 what's your what's your take? So the sort of way 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:31.239 that this has been described by a lot of people 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.920 is that these are sort of neck beardy editors who 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:37.599 are all in their basements and spending their stimulus checks 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.200 their last few dollars on out of the money calls 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:44.680 and uh margin bets on Jimmy, and that's you know, 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.720 somehow a revenge against the big bad hedge funds and 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.720 one percenters and billionaires that have been stepping on the 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.159 necks of this class of people for a long time. 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:55.440 And it's just really hard to take that with a 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:59.000 straight face. Um, the single biggest holder of game Stop 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.960 is the guy that pioneered sub prime model finance. He's 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:06.000 a billionaire named Donald Fossive of the company. Um, Like, 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:10.359 I'm sorry, Just that fact alone, forget anything else. Just 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:12.880 that fact alone suggests that, oh, this is a proletarian 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.680 revolution of the day traders. Is the wrong take straight up? Um, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:18.839 If you look at the composition of the sort of 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:20.720 folks that are that are in game Stop, I mean, 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.680 the the guy that has benefited the most in terms 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.640 of um percentage return is this, as far as anyone 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.719 can tell, as this guy, um who goes by Roaring 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:31.839 Kitty on Twitter, who's who had a position that was 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.640 worth upwards a fifty million at various points over the 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.120 past week. Thanks, you know million by the time people 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.040 are right, who knows where it's at? But he put 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.560 up fifty k and it's it's you know, so Um. 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.520 You know this is a guy who's a financial advisor 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.159 for financial advisor for a Massachusetts insurance company. UM. You know, 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.800 and I'm not trying to come out and bash this guy, 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.040 but UM, I'm sorry that that's that's not you know, 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:58.680 the masses in the United States. Fifty dollars that he 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.520 you know, you'll owd into the stock is half of 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.480 US media net worth, um, and most of that net 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:06.480 worth isn't liquid assets. It's tied up in real estate. 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:08.440 So you know, really, anyone that can come up with 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:10.960 fift k to put into the stock market on this 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:16.200 kind of bet is doing substantially better than the typical person. UM. 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.440 I think it's it's fair to say, so, you know, 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.280 I just my basic take is just this is not 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:25.960 some working class revolution against capital as represented by hedge funds. 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:33.360 So I I understand the point about deep effing value 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.920 as he's known around here, and the fact that a 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.520 lot of the people on Reddit are quite sophisticated in 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.080 the way they talk about options, and the fact that 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.080 they're targeting Agama squeezes is a very you know, non 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:50.120 retail activity. But your point about one of the biggest 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.320 holders in gm E being the subprime auto finance guy 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:59.520 like you can have a bad populist movement or a 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:04.240 bad coordinated or effective populist movement. I mean, we arguably 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.200 just saw one of those in the US at the 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.280 beginning of the year with the storming of the capital. 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.720 Could it not just be that these people are trying 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.600 to make a political statement, but they're just not doing 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.080 a very good job. I mean, I think if you 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:19.760 ask the people on Wall Street bets like, why are 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.640 you in this? I mean, you know, if the tendees 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.640 didn't exist, they wouldn't be in it, right, This is 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:26.760 not a political project as a you know, as a 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:31.240 first order um, you know, goal there's definitely some political 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.360 um spin on it, but that's always true. I Mean. 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.920 One of my favorite memories from my career in markets 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:42.680 is watching Bill Ackman and um, uh what's his name? Icon? 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.440 Do get out with Scott Wapner on SNBC. Um, Scott 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.800 Watner moderating on SNBC. And I think it was over 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.640 herbal Life, which was this similar situation where there was 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.160 a large short interest and Icon was long and um, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.480 you know, it turned into a political question, right, like 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.960 herbal Life is extracting rents from these these poor folks, 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.920 and you know it's a pyramid scheme and that's evil 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.839 and we need to stop that. And you know, whereas 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:10.680 something oside saying, actually, people get a lot of value 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.200 out of this, and you know, I don't particularly find 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:15.120 a compelling but hey, they like it and it seems 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:16.840 to work for them. So with the issue here, you know, 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.080 everything gets politicized. Um and um. You know, I think 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.200 with Game Stop, we've seen that to a degree that's 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.640 just so over the top. So you know that the 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:28.960 takes that have emerged out of it are so beyond 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.280 the pale that you've got avowed communists saying that this 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.840 is like the best thing that's ever happened to workers, 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.280 and you know, at the start of the giant Revolution, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.720 and it's like, what are you people talking about? Right? Like, um, 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:42.880 so yeah, I just think it's it's hyperbolate. That's the 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.160 I want to Yeah, I want to hop in there 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:50.920 because George, I actually remember watching that acmen Icon debate 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:52.319 as well, and I'm pretty sure that you and I 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:54.840 were probably texting each other at the time or bantering 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.480 about it, because that was around the time we got 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.520 to know each other. But what I think is so 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.880 beautif full about the last couple of weeks and about 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.960 what this sort of Reddit revolution has shown is that 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:12.480 now anyone can be Akmin or icon, anyone can get 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.760 up on their soapbox and make a case for how 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:18.000 the market should be playing out, for what should be 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.040 happening in a given single name stock. And yes, of 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.800 course that's going to be politicized, and I think to 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.880 a degree it should be because to your point about 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.560 the fact that some of these redditors are quite sophisticated, 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.920 that's actually part of the point that just goes to 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.520 show how high the bar to entry is and how 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.800 big you can still be in the sense of education 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.800 or even net worth and still be a little guy 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.319 compared to one of these big institutions. You know, formerly 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.880 you had to be akmin to be Akman, you had 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.560 to have raised hundreds of millions, if not billions, from LPs, 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:56.959 you had to have your own fund, and you had 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.840 to be candidly, probably a white guy in a suit 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.520 getting on CNBC to have that kind of a soap box. 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:05.719 And that's not the case anymore. And I think that 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.160 that's a really important part of the paradigm shift here 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.120 that says to me that this is not actually just 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.760 about the tendees. You know, these are not just purely 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.240 kind of rational economic actors here, because if you look 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:22.120 at the discourse at least around who's taking money off 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:25.880 the table, who's taking profit on these trades, there are 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.920 a lot of people with irrational money still in the 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:33.000 game who are holding the line, as they like to say, 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.480 just to stick it to the suits. And that sounds 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:41.160 pretty political to me, George, can ever, can anyone be 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:45.280 an acment now? I wasn't around during the Internet stock 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.640 bubble of the late and early two thousand's. I was 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.319 still in grad school back then. But I know, Joe, 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.520 you've told anecdotes about reading message boards back then, about 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:56.640 people hyping stocks and about stocks doing the kind of 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.200 thing that stocks you today, and maybe not through a 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.320 short squeeze in a gamma squeeze, by through you know, 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.760 mass participation in markets. UM, you know, the democratization as 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:07.360 it were. I think that's the wrong word for it, 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.400 But I think what people will identify of of going 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:14.560 to decimalization of um having expanded access to brokerage accounts 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.559 that happened in the es like that all happened before, 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.760 right um people signed up for e trade accounts to 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:24.720 ride the Internet stock bubble higher in the late nineteen nineties. Um, 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.680 and you know, we're able to participate, We're able to 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:30.200 coordinate in just the same way that we're seeing now. 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.600 I think you could make the case that the specific 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.720 strategy is a little bit more complex now. Um. But 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.160 I don't think it's actually something new. Um. And I 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.240 don't think it's actually something that's changed significantly. I will 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.600 admit that there it's easier to get into the market 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.920 and speculate today with an app like robin Hood than 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.400 it would have been twenty years ago. And it probably 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.400 is a little bit easier to coordinate via some of 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.000 these large scale network effect online communities like Reddit, Wall 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.000 Street bets or like Twitter or whatever. Um, But I 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.640 don't think that's an phenomenon at his core. It's maybe 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:07.120 a more intense version of something we've seen previously. But um, 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.440 I think there has been ample precedent in relatively recent 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.080 history for this exact same pattern of behavior, and so 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.840 we're not seeing some new emergent um factor, but just 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:22.760 standard rehash of what's happened before. Maybe Joe knows the 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:25.760 answer to this, But I wasn't trading in the late 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.560 early two thousand's. But I don't remember anyone talking about 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.680 specific options contracts that they could gang up on to 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:38.720 create a gamma squeeze. Like that feels relatively new to me. Yeah, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.280 I mean, you know, I just um, you know, my 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.080 twenty second take is like, yeah, there were message boards. Yeah, 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.360 the message boards moving market there a. I do think 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.760 George is right, the coordination is sort of more intense 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.959 these days, and I think the sophistication is just um 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:58.760 way more intense these days. I mean, the level of 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.360 intelligent at would agree at least on some say like 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.360 Wall Street beds posters, is extremely high. They're under some 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.000 of them at least have very good understanding of how 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.640 the derivatives markets work and where the pressure points are emerging, 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.200 and they know how to communicate as such. And also 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.240 in the case of DFV the Roaring Kitty like also 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.640 very high level understanding of business. I mean, Joel, I 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.960 guess I would ask you though, like, yes, the markets 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.400 are changing and that is new and anyone can sort 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.960 of like tell a story in a way that maybe 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.560 previously would be reserved for a hedge fund manager. But 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:37.840 is that like, is that political or is that just 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.560 changing market? Well, part of what I love about all 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.320 of the commentary that has occurred around this is that 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.880 for the first time, people are paying attention to market 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.560 structure and paying attention to all of the implications that 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:55.000 come along with market structure in a way that frankly, 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.120 even Wall Street didn't um. You know, Church and I 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.840 will both remember when we're working on banks, right at 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.040 working at banks, excuse me, right out of college, you know, 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.880 the least loved task was interfacing with middle and back office, 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.720 was waiting through all of the new regulations that were 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.320 coming out post two thousand eight. It turns out, you know, 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.320 now looking back ten years later, for me, that was 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:20.960 some of the most important work that I did, because 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.000 it gave me this understanding of how the market is structured, 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.160 why it's structured this way, and all of the knock 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.160 on effects and implications that that has on who can 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.960 access the market, who can access the market in what ways, 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:38.240 who can access information and data flow, who can access leverage, 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:41.720 who can access various financial products? And again, I think 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.320 that that should be political. And I think that we've 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.640 seen over the last year people waking up to the 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.080 system around them, the fish waking up to the water. 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:54.960 And I think that this is yet another example of that. 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.680 Whether you know, we look at the storming of the 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.440 Capitol Building or even the election of Donald Rump. You know, 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.680 that was a subset of the American people waking up 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.480 and say, you know what, the current system it's not 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:10.320 working for me. It doesn't serve me. Even the BLM 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.760 protests last spring. Of course, that was a very different 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.280 sort of belief system and ideology that was driving that, 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.920 but still it was people waking up and saying this 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.520 system doesn't serve me. And I think that this fits 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.680 somehow with all of those other examples of this sort 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.200 of zeitgeist in context of the time that we're in, 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.520 of people waking up this time to market structure and 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.520 saying the market structure is broken. I like that idea 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.680 that market structure market access should be political. I think 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.880 that's a good way of framing it. Um So I 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.560 just want to go back to, you know, the notion 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:53.000 of what is actually motivating Wall Street bets on aggregate. 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:57.200 So if you spend time on the message board, it's 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.680 pretty clear to me that there is a wrong sense 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:02.960 of community. Although I guess you could argue over the 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.159 past week that might be changing, since they've gone up 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.720 to seven million followers or something crazy like that, and 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.679 it's starting to change the makeup of the form. But 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.000 if you go back to like a few months, like 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:19.920 Wall Street Bets had a very defined identity, It had 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:23.240 its own language, its own culture, And it feels to 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.399 me like when you have that commonality, when you have 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:30.359 that much in common, you have that unity. And part 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:35.159 of that unity is developed by having a common identifiable enemy. 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.600 And it feels like Wall Street Bets settled on Wall 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.640 Street or parts of Wall Street and the financial industry 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.680 as their common enemy. So I don't really get how 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:50.960 how we can ignore that side of things. Well, I mean, 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.239 if you're someone who is well off, who's done well 0:17:54.280 --> 0:18:00.000 in society, who has five figures to risk on relatively high, 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.040 relatively low expected return trades which is what deep out 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.960 of the money call options and highly concentrated positions and 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:10.879 margin all you know imply, Um, if you're if you're 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.879 resentful towards someone who's you know, got a nice suit on, 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:19.320 that works at a business that ends in the word capital, Um, 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:21.480 I mean that that that's all well and good. I 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:24.159 mean I don't deny that there's a certain group of 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:26.560 people on you know, the Wall Street bets or however 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.240 you want to frame this community is is resentful of 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.920 the classic hedge fund crowd. But I would also say 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.159 that that's very different from something like the Occupy Wall 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:40.000 Street movement in the post crisis period, right where you 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.639 know that that was not upper middle class people getting 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:46.679 super mad about UM. You know, the fact that they 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.440 didn't get enough respect in markets, or that they you know, 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.200 that that hedge funds got all the attention and their 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.679 ideas were overlooked like that was. That was a rejection 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.960 of the larger distribution of wealth, the distribution of resources 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:01.879 this country, so on and so forth. It did end 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:05.600 up being, you know, something that UM metastasized into the 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.800 broader politics of of the United States, but at least 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:10.880 not long term. But I do think you can make 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.520 that that case. Whereas the you know, I'm glad Jill 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.359 brought up the US capital sacking. I mean that group 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:22.359 of people was by any measure a diverse group of 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.120 people in terms of the amount of UM social resources 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:29.040 they controlled, around the types of work they do, around 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.600 you know, their status as labor capital. Right. You have 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:33.760 people flying to that event on private planes, and you 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.640 also have people who were solid by any definition, working 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.440 class and not doing as well as other folks in society. 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.639 You know. So to me, both the US capital and 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:46.159 the Wall Street pets phenomenon and game stop whatever um 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.560 are really good examples of trying to paint over, you know, 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.760 a people group of people with diverse and you know, 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.920 unified interests, but unified interests that don't really break down 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.240 along the lines of UM broader political economy. Right, it's it's, 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.280 it's and and that's really what I object to most 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:03.800 about some of the takes is that you're trying to 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:08.480 fit um, interesting shaped pegs into holes that are just 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.920 a different shape. And so, yeah, haven't you just painted 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:15.199 over this group as a bunch of people who have 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:17.840 the five figures to throw away, as a bunch of 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:23.000 people who are jealous of the students? Want to absolutely people, Yeah, 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:26.359 there are absolutely people in this in this diverse range 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.880 of folks that use walls bats, who are not super 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.119 high income, who may be spending their last couple hundred 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:34.440 dollars on gm E calls or whatever the trade is, right, 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.080 I totally acknowledge there are people like that in there. 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.440 My point is, my point is not is that if 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:42.800 you're just going to ignore those people, you shouldn't ignore 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.280 those people anymore than you should ignore the people that 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.919 are also benefiting at benefiting who don't fit into that category. Right. 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.200 You can't. You can't decide that this, you know, this 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.359 is not a universal group of little guys. There's certainly 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:56.960 some little guys in there, and there's some big fish 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:00.320 in there too. That's that's my point. I think it's 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.200 I think that it's super worth acknowledging that so many 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:06.280 of the people on the Wall Street Beds forum and 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.920 participating in discourse and in the ways that they are here, 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.560 whether that's on the discord or wherever wherever you want 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:18.360 to point to, they're doing an under anonymous accounts or pseudonyms, right, 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:21.480 And I think that that, to me just drives home 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.920 this point that in a way, it doesn't matter who 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:29.719 they are, it doesn't matter what their associated economic background is, 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:34.760 what their motivations are, but they're all participating in this 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:36.879 kind of stick it to the man, stick it to 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:40.280 the suits narrative. And sure, I'm sure that you can 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:44.960 break down from each individual the nuanced differences of how 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.320 they see the world and why they're doing this, you 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:49.840 know why they've put money into game Stop. I'm sure 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:53.040 that there are some who are more rational economic actors 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.840 than others. But at the end of the day, you 0:21:55.960 --> 0:22:01.880