1 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Today we have with us Chris Entz. Now, let me 2 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: tell you something. We have a friend in common, Mayor Lansky, too, 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: the grandson of the famous mobster Mayor Lansky. But I'm 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: going to tell you she is a New York Times 5 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: selling author. She has written dozens of books. One of 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: her concentration is Women of the West. She has cataloged 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: and researched and written about the amazing things that women 8 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: did back in the day now in the true wild West. 9 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: I cannot wait to talk to her because she has 10 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: written a book on machine gun Kelly. I'm just gonna 11 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: let her come on in here and talk to us 12 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: and tell us how she did her research and why 13 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: she landed on the Kellys in the first place. So 14 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: y'all please help me welcome his own seven Chris ents Chris, 15 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:12,279 Speaker 1: how are you? Honey? 16 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 2: Hi? And fine? Oh, thank you so much for having 17 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 2: me be a part of this broadcast. Certainly it's a 18 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 2: pleasure and always excited to talk about the amazing things 19 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: that women did, not only on the legal side of things, 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: but on the illegal side of things, because women made 21 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: great strides there too, and that cannot be ignored. 22 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: They cannot. And let me tell you, I talk a 23 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: lot about Bonnie and Clyde. I've had, you know, the 24 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: niece of Bonnie own, I've had experts on. That's probably 25 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: the couple that got me into this whole gig in 26 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: the first place. But the way you talk about the Kellys, Honey, 27 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: they were chasing Bondy and Clyde, Now absolutely so. 28 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: I mean that's what made their story so significant for 29 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: me because there were so many firsts with machine gun 30 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: Kelly and his wife Katherine Thorn, and you know, it 31 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: was they were perpetrating crimes right there in the heart 32 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: where everybody was perpetrating those kinds of crimes at the time. 33 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: You had Dyllinger, you had the Barker Boys, you had 34 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 2: you did have Bonnie and Clyde. And through all of 35 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 2: this you had the Bureau of Investigation that's trying to 36 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: find their footing in this world. And it just so 37 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: happened that they used a lot of these early gangsters 38 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: to be able to make their case as to why 39 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: they need to really advance what's going on with federal 40 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 2: Bureau of Investigations, which it eventually became, but it didn't 41 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 2: come without some bumps and bruises along the Way and 42 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: machine Gun. Kelly and Catherine Thorn were two that gave 43 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: those bumps and bruises to mister Hoover. 44 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: Now, I want people to know one thing about you. 45 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: You and I have a mantra in common, and that 46 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: is go to the scene. You've got to walk it, 47 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: You've got to hear it. In some instances, you've just 48 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: got to be able to taste it to truly understand 49 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: those crime scenes. So you've been to Dodge City, you've 50 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: been to Tombstone, You've been to Deadwood. So if somebody 51 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: were to ask you about some of these places, you've 52 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: got it from ground level, which I think is imperative. 53 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know how you write about those aspects 54 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: of history, those amazing things that happened beyond the Mississippi, 55 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 2: without actually stepping in those places and getting a taste 56 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: for it and being so overwhelmed by history that it's 57 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: almost like cobwebs that you have to brush away. And 58 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, I'm you and I also 59 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: have this in common too, because I know you do 60 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: some investigation work as well, but you know I'm a 61 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: private investigator and there is nothing like actually getting into 62 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: that particular source and trying to make sense of what 63 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: happened and to reason through it. 64 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: Mm hm. And you and I talked a little while ago. 65 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: We want to get it right and how important that is. 66 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely so. And you know, one of my favorite authors 67 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: is a woman by the name of Dorothy Johnson. And 68 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: Dorothy Johnson was a teacher, a professor out of Montana, 69 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 2: and she wrote this great book called a great short 70 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: story excuse me, called The manushat Liberty Valance, which eventually 71 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: became a film with John Wayne and Jimmy Stewart. But 72 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 2: there's a great line in that movie, and the line 73 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: is when fact is absent, print the legend. People love 74 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: the legend, but there's nothing like the fact. 75 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. You know, let me tell you it's 76 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: really wicked. I just came home from visiting the ambush 77 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: site of Sheriff Buford Pusser, and there is some conflict 78 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: between fact and legend. So that quote just hit me 79 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: a little different. So thank you for that. 80 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 2: Well, you know, there's money to be made in the legend. 81 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 2: I wrote a book called According to Kate, The Life 82 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: and Times of Big Nose Kate Elder, Doc Holliday's Love 83 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: and Boy I'll tell you she had a different take 84 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: on the IRPs than most people did because she didn't 85 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: really like the IRPs. But when just before that book 86 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: came out, I got a lot of emails from people saying, 87 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 2: don't you don't you really print anything that's going to 88 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: be disparaging to the IRPs, because we're not going to 89 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: like that, because there's money to be made with the legend, 90 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: and you have anybody poke and pull at that string 91 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: you've got. You upset a lot of people when you 92 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: do that. 93 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely. And you know Doc Colladay, he's a Georgia boy, 94 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of just these tales about him. 95 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: And sometimes people will say, well, they never talked about it, 96 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: this isn't in print, but as though it's now going 97 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: to be fact because you've told it right. 98 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: You say a thing, and you say a thing enough 99 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: and it becomes truth in some respects, but in particular 100 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: with Kate, which is what I love doing research about 101 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: Kate and ended up with all of Kate's things, which 102 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: is why I was able to write the book. The 103 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 2: book is called According to Kate because it's what Kate 104 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 2: says happened, not what I said happened, but you know, 105 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 2: Kate was a working gal. She was a prosecutor, and 106 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 2: she was either working one or two houses the whole 107 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: time that she was with Doc. Now motion pictures and 108 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: the legend would lead you to believe that Doc was 109 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 2: such an amazing gambler and had all of this money 110 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: that he supported Kate. But nothing could be further from 111 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 2: the truth. Doc was a failed because he had tuberculosis 112 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 2: and he wasn't that great of a gambler. And so 113 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: if anybody was supporting anybody, it was Kate's supporting Doc. 114 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: But see that just doesn't that doesn't sit well with 115 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: a lot of people. They like to think that she 116 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: was just this tiny little model and you know, just 117 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: needed him to take care of her, and that was 118 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: not true at all. She was a beefy hungarian gal, 119 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: sustained on a potato the potato based diet, and could 120 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: hold her own with Doc and always always was a 121 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 2: working woman. 122 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: And you know, you're a private investigator. Facts matter. Getting 123 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: it right matters. You double check, you triple check, you 124 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: cut druble check before you put them in print. You 125 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: have written dozens of books where the same thing is true. 126 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: And I got to tell you, Chris, I didn't know 127 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: whether to have a complete laugh attack or throw my 128 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: phone when I saw one of the critic that did 129 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: a little highlight on your book the Kelly's and called 130 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: you Christopher. Not only did they take Chris and make 131 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: it absolutely a man like, they made it more formal 132 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: so that nobody could miss it. 133 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: They're just wrong, absolutely wrong. And you knows, and I 134 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: don't even know that because they referred to Katherine Thorn 135 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 2: as Catherine Male and that I know whether or not 136 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: they were actually reading the Kellys. So but you know, 137 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: that's that's okay as as as long as as long 138 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: as this person read the Kelly story, even if they 139 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: got some some mixed up, as long as they read 140 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: the story and they appreciated this version of what happened 141 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: with these people and how wicked she was. I'm happy 142 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: that they just picked it up and cracked the cover. 143 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: Got cha, well, stated, I just thought, this is the 144 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: funniest thing I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, I know, 145 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: all right, So what drew you to machine Gun Kelly? 146 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 2: I wasn't necessarily drawn to Kelly. I was drawn to 147 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: Catherine because I write primarily about women of the American frontier, 148 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 2: and even though the Kelly's were in the thirties, their 149 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: behavior was just like it would have been in the 150 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: Wild West. All you have to do is erase six 151 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: shooter and put in Tommy gunn They were scoundrels and 152 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: and I've written a lot about women criminals of the 153 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 2: American West, and Catherine was right up there. And what 154 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: struck me about her was how slick she was, because 155 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: she was a beauty and pretty people can get away 156 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: with an awful lot, and she really her set her 157 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: mind to get away with some big things, and she 158 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: needed somebody who was willing to help her along that path. 159 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 2: And poor George was just a willing party. Now he 160 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: was not without his own flaws, but I don't know 161 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 2: that he would have made that leap from being a 162 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 2: low rent bank robber and bootlegger to kidnapp her had 163 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: it not been for Catherine. 164 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Can I read from your book for a second? 165 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: Sure thing, y'all listen to this talking about George Kelly 166 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: machine gun Kelly. He was leaning against a small, swanky 167 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: bar when a server placed a drink next to him 168 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: and then hurried off to wait on others. Kelly lifted 169 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: the beverage to have a sip and stared across the 170 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: glass at Katherine thorn in Little Steve Steven's arms. As 171 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: Little Steve led her across the dance floor, he pressed 172 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: her close to him. Catherine didn't resist. She caught Kelly 173 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: watching her and smiled behind her slinky purse lips. She 174 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: offered a look that was a lavishing and inviting challenge. 175 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: Kelly lit up with the sort of grin she knew 176 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: men wore when they were up to something mischievous. He 177 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: had made bad choices in his thirty two years, but 178 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: falling for Catherine would have fatal consequences. Now I'm going 179 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: to tell you something, Chris. I'm hooked, I'm drawn in. 180 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: I'm all about it because I know a ton about 181 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: machine Gun Kelly. I can talk about the time he's 182 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: spent at levenworth of time he was in Alcatraz, some 183 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 1: of his antics, the kidnap, and all of it. I 184 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: don't know a lot about her. That one section makes 185 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: me want to focus on her entirely. So I get 186 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: while you were drawn in? 187 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 2: Oh yes, I mean I think I think history wants 188 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: to downplay women's influence in the world of crime because 189 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 2: it doesn't seem like that's something that women would want 190 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: to aspire to be or be involved in. But you know, 191 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 2: certainly that's not the case when you meet people like 192 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 2: like Catherine. She had an agenda. She lived by her 193 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 2: looks and certainly took advantage of anybody who licked their 194 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 2: chops in her direction. And she was smart. She was smart. 195 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: She knew exactly what to do to get in there. 196 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: I mean she was you know, she had prior to 197 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 2: even being involved with with George, she'd been arrested for 198 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: shoplifting and also involved a number of grifts with various salesmen. 199 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: She would see these particular salesmen out and about whether 200 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: she would be shopping at a department store, and she 201 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: would bat her eyes at them, and and they would 202 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: take her out to dinner, and then after dinner, they 203 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: would take her to the secluded spot that she would 204 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 2: direct them to to, you know, for for some for 205 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: some heavy petting, let's say. And during those particular times, 206 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: then the the gentleman that they that she was working 207 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: with would step into the vehicle and drag her out 208 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: and the salesman out, and then rob the salesman and 209 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: you know, take pictures of what was going on, so 210 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: then they could blackmail him later on. So she knew 211 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: exactly what she did. I mean, she was a grifter. 212 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 2: Sometimes her crimes like shoplifting was very overt, but then 213 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 2: she had that covert side of her that could get 214 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 2: in and get exactly what she wanted. And make no mistake, 215 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: Katherine was all about what she wanted. 216 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: Well, they married in nineteen twenty seven. Is it true 217 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: she bought him the machine gun, and that's when machine 218 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: Gun Kelly was born. 219 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 2: She did indeed buy him a machine gun as a gift, 220 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: but it is not true that he was so proficient 221 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: with the particular machine gun that he could write his 222 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: name and his initials in concrete with the bullets from 223 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: the gun. That was not true. But see, Catherine is 224 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: so smart. She was a great PR person and she 225 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: was his best PR person ever because she would have 226 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: parties when he was off doing doing his robbery and 227 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 2: doing his bootlegging. She would have parties there in Fort 228 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: Worth and invite just some of the worst of the 229 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 2: worst people and even corrupt law enforcement agents, and then 230 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: hand each one of them spent shellcasing from a Tommy 231 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: gun with machine Gun Kelly's initials scratched into them. And 232 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: that was that was the calling card that she would 233 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: give everyone. Now, that always sparked interest. 234 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: That was brilliant. That was absolutely brilliant. 235 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: It was brilliant. You know, you need somebody like that 236 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: to help peddle your books and such. 237 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: That's right. 238 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 2: She was on a dummy. She knew what she was doing, 239 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: and she wanted to make him, make him be a 240 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: ruthless guy, not only in the general public's eyes, but 241 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: also in his peers' eyes. So whenever there was a 242 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: bank to be robbed that had some substantial money in them, 243 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: and you know, please keep in mind, this was in 244 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: the thirties, this was on the heels of the depression, 245 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: so and he had a lot of competition for robbing 246 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: these banks. So the banks that had any money in 247 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: them were far and few between, and so she figured, 248 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: you know, if she made sure that he had a 249 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: reputation for being a really bad individual, that they would 250 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 2: hire him on as part of their team to rob 251 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: banks and then also frighten off any competitors who thought 252 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: that they might encroach on their jobs. 253 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny when you're talking about the 254 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: Great Depression, because that is something I was going to mention, 255 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, machine gun Kelly was not like the other 256 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: depression outlaws. He actually came for money. He went to 257 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: mythic Phibbey State University. I mean, he was not somebody 258 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: that was in some poor shack and had a third 259 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: grade education. 260 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely not. He certainly was the upper middle class. But 261 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 2: as as usual with people who just take this particular 262 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: path in their life, something triggers them to go into 263 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 2: that particular field. And his relationship with his father was 264 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: not good. His mother always enjoyed poor health, and his 265 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: father was fooling around with another woman who the other 266 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 2: woman didn't have good health. So it wasn't it wasn't 267 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: as though. It wasn't as though in George's eyes that 268 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: his father was even seeking refuge in a woman who 269 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: was totally healthy, because that wasn't the case. He made 270 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 2: a linear swamp, and that in fear and infuriated George 271 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: that his father would be having an affair. And it 272 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: infuriated him because his mother was so fragile in health 273 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: and knew that if this information got to her, it 274 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: would be it would be her end. And really, you know, 275 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: he wanted to respect his father, but he couldn't respect 276 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: him after he saw him doing what he did, He's angry. 277 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 2: And so now he tells his father, listen, okay, I'm 278 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 2: not going to say anything. I'm not going to I'm 279 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: not going to make sure that this goes public. But 280 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: the reason, the way you're going to keep my silence 281 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 2: is you're going to let me use your car, so 282 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: why I can do some bootlegging. Now, keep in mind, 283 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: he's a teenager, he's just fifteen. He's just fifteen when 284 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: this is. 285 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: Going on, and by the time he's nineteen, he's out. 286 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: He's left, absolutely so, but a smart man broken. I 287 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: think because what he saw happened in his family. That's 288 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: not an excuse, but certainly I think that was the 289 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: catalyst that pushed him over the edge. Yeah, when by 290 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 2: the time by the time he's nineteen, he's gone, and 291 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: you know, he's very close with his father in law 292 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 2: from his first wife. He's very close to him, and 293 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: his father in law really when he was alive, helped 294 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 2: him be on the straight and narrow and really saw 295 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: promise in George that his father never founded him. And 296 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: so when his father in law passes away through some 297 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: pretty suspicious circumstances there that again emboldens him to walk 298 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: on the dark side, to be able to act out 299 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: his frustration with the way that particular relationship ended. Again, 300 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: not an excuse, but it's amazing the things that push 301 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: people over over the edge. 302 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: Well, not only was his home life internmol his inner 303 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: circle was, and the country was. I mean, it was 304 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: kind of easy to lose Hope there. 305 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: There's no question about that, no question about it. But 306 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: I always thought it was sad because he was so 307 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 2: smart and because he was incredibly charming. He could have 308 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 2: finished his degree and gone on to be anything, but 309 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: he chose. He chose the easy He took the easy 310 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: way because he had an opportunity to be educated and 311 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 2: to rise above what the average person was doing. But 312 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 2: he decided against that. And as I said, he was charming, 313 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: and he was also I think he was quite good looking. 314 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: Oh me too, no doubt about it. 315 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 2: I like it. I like a guy with meat on 316 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: his bones. 317 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: Let me tell you those ass hand. 318 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: He had a real cal ripken thing going for him. 319 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: So let me tell you, as we say in the South, 320 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: those ass can get you pregnant. 321 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 2: There you go, absolutely so absolutely you'd be lost in 322 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 2: those for a while, so I can see why it 323 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: wasn't just purely on Catherine's part, just another drift. I 324 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: think she was as attracted to him as he was 325 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: to her. 326 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,479 Speaker 1: Good dresser, good looking, smart and brave. 327 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: You know, that's the thing about if you look at 328 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 2: any of these gangsters in that time period, you didn't 329 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 2: find any of them. I mean, who robs a bank 330 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: and a fedora? You know, these guys robbed banks like 331 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 2: they were going to the office to do a day's work. 332 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: And Chris, I don't want to jump ahead, but even 333 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: looking at the two of them when they're in court, 334 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: they look like movie stars. 335 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. But yeah, Mack, we won't drop ahead. 336 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: But you're absolutely right. But they played that too. 337 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: They knew they did. They did one hundred percent. 338 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. She was very good at being able to say, here, 339 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 2: here's what we're gonna do. Here's here's how we're going 340 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 2: to beat this in the court of public opinion. 341 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: Okay, So they meet, they fall in love, they get married. 342 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: She does have a hand in some direct and of 343 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: what he's going to do in his criminal life. So 344 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: let's talk about the kidnapping of the old attack. 345 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: I thought What was amazing about her was she was 346 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 2: slick enough to well, let me back up and say 347 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: that kidnapping was a new crime, and it was becoming very, 348 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: very popular, and it started with the high profile kidnapping 349 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 2: of the Limberg baby, which, by the way, the Hoover 350 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: and his men were involved in trying to get at 351 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: the bottom of that case. And we're really under a 352 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 2: great deal of pressure to get at the bottom of it. 353 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 2: And the Kelly's were the first to be one of 354 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 2: the first to be accused of kidnapping the Limberg baby. 355 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: Now I didn't know that, that's I wrong. 356 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were one of the first to be kitten 357 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 2: to be accused of that because they still by the 358 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 2: time they kidnapped Urschel, they still hadn't come to come 359 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 2: to the end of what happened with Charles Limberg junior. 360 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: They were still looking into that, and so they were 361 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 2: right up there with being suspected of having a hand 362 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 2: in that. But as I say, you know, kidnapping then 363 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 2: became the thing to do, and you looked for you 364 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 2: had to vet your kidnapping victim, which is where Catherine 365 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 2: comes in. Catherine loved to just go over newspapers and 366 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 2: the society pages in magazines and finding local celebrities from 367 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: Texas to Oklahoma. And she really made sure that she 368 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 2: investigated their mark, and they find Charles. She finds Charles 369 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: in a magazine about their incredible home there in Oklahoma 370 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 2: City and reads about his background and his wife's background, 371 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 2: because his wife is the one that you know, he 372 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: he ran a bank, but his wife was the one 373 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 2: that had all the money. She inherited lots and lots 374 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 2: of money. And because Charles was a very good, very 375 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: good at his job at the bank, was a great financier, 376 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: he was the one that was in charge of her fortune. 377 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 2: And so this article was about was about the Ursule's, 378 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: was about their life, was about their their opulent lifestyle, 379 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 2: which you know, given today's terms, that wouldn't necessarily be opulent, 380 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 2: but you know, they had parties and it was just 381 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: a big house, and they wanted what the Urschels had 382 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 2: and knew and this is gosh, they knew how much money. 383 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 2: Catherine knew how much money the family had in magazine. 384 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 2: The magazine article wasn't necessarily to make this public information 385 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 2: that would draw kidnappers to them. This was a time 386 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 2: when journalism was just nothing more than in some cases, 387 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 2: to be able to highlight magnanimous individuals like the Urshuls 388 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 2: who gave these great parties and who were very generous 389 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: to local Red Cross and that kind of thing. They 390 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: really wanted to celebrate them. But people, they had no 391 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: idea that they were putting a mark out on these people. 392 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: You know, Oh, it certainly made them a target. But 393 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, there's two things that are knocking me out 394 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: right now. I had no idea they were ever suspects, 395 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: but al Capone offered to help locate the baby and 396 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: return him safely, even though he was in prison at 397 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: the time. Now you have gangsters on both sides involved 398 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: with the Limburg kidnapping. 399 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 2: Right, absolutely so. But yeah, and you know that was 400 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 2: of course, you know, all of the story of the 401 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 2: Kellys as well as so many of the gangsters at 402 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 2: the time, particularly the Barkers and the Barker Boys, all 403 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: helped to make the FBI what it eventually became, because 404 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 2: you know, there was a lot of pressure under Hoover 405 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 2: at that time to get a job done. What are 406 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 2: you doing now, we don't see any The people are 407 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 2: outraged that all these kidnappings are happening because you have 408 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 2: Charles Erschel being kidnapped, and then on the other hand, 409 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 2: we have maub Barker and her boys kidnapping, kidnapping the 410 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 2: hands out of the Milwaukee area. 411 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: And you know, to your point, there's not money in 412 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: the banks anymore. After the depression, people were freaked out 413 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: to leave their money to bank. A lot of people 414 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: kept at home. That's where the whole thing, you know, 415 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: in your mattress and hiding it and jars and bearing 416 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: it in the yard. They trusted that more than a bank. 417 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: And that's the reason why Catherine said, listen, the risk 418 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: to reward really isn't worth it when you're going to 419 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 2: rob these banks, because you're walking away with maybe five grand, 420 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 2: and that's not going to cut it for me. George, 421 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 2: I'm going to need much more than that. You know, 422 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: I have become accustomed to this grand lifestyle and that 423 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 2: just isn't going to work for me. So and I 424 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: don't want to run the risk of you being hit 425 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: by a bullet for just a little bit of cash. 426 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: So let's try and figure out a way. As many 427 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 2: of these gangsters were and being able to pick a target, 428 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 2: which is what they did you know, let me go 429 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 2: back home for a minute. Compone was just outraged that 430 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 2: a child was involved. I don't think Compone cared two 431 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 2: cents about whether or not who was kidnapp as long 432 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 2: as it was a grown up. But when it came 433 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 2: to a child. Plus, at that time, Lindberg was such 434 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: a hero. No one knew about his relationship to Nazi 435 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: Germany at that point, but he was such a hero. 436 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 2: You know, everybody wanted a piece of that pie, and 437 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 2: Capone was going to do anything to get himself out 438 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: of Dutch. But the Kellys, you know, they kidnaped Urschel, 439 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 2: and that's the first after they're kidnapping a Verschel. That's 440 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 2: when Hoover says, all right, these people are seasoned at 441 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 2: what they do. They picked out a wealthy individual. They 442 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 2: fit the same mo of somebody that would have targeted 443 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 2: the Limbergs. So we're going to look to them. But 444 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 2: I mean, what was so interesting about that particular time 445 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 2: period in history. There was no law against kidnapping somebody 446 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: in Maryland and then taking them into Tennessee. It was 447 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 2: not a federal law. So you know, the Maryland police 448 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 2: could not go into Tennessee and look for this kidnapper. 449 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 2: Thank goodness, the Lindbergh Law was put. It was put 450 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 2: into a fact. Not only are the Kellys the first 451 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: to be suspected of kidnapping the Limberg baby, but they're 452 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 2: the first to be tried under the new Lindbergh Law, 453 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 2: which makes it a federal crime to transport a kidnap 454 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: victim across stant lines. 455 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: And listen, y'all, they didn't just take mister Erschel. They 456 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: took two people at once because neither man would admit 457 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: who was mister Rshel. So they took mister Rshchel and 458 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: his friend off the front porch while they were playing cards. 459 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: And then of course, you know, they dropped his friend 460 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: later and he had to walk I don't know, twelve 461 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: miles or something back. His last name was Jarrett. You know, 462 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: that's what kind of set this tone that when he 463 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: mister Jarrett started to identify and the lab the wives, 464 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: they were like, yeah, one of them had a machine gun. 465 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: So again that started what Chris was talking about earlier, 466 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: that legend. 467 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: He did carry it around, but he was not proficient 468 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 2: with a tommy gun. I mean tommy gun. And I 469 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: don't know whether you've ever fired one, but they they 470 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: there who I mean, there's a lot of power in 471 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: a Tommy gun being able just to you got to 472 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: really have a strong grip with two hands on that 473 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: it jumps and kicks, and you know, you hit somebody 474 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 2: only because of the blunderbuss, not necessarily because not necessarily 475 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 2: because you're aiming and so and so. You know, taking 476 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 2: a Tommy gun into a home where the Ershuls were 477 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 2: playing cards with the Jarrett on their back porch would 478 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 2: have been overkilled, literally because everybody would have gone in 479 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 2: that spray and that that was just for show. He 480 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: had no intention of firing it off. But you walk 481 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 2: and with tommy gunn I'm gonna I'm going to listen 482 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 2: to what you have to say, Roger. 483 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: That is it true that machine gun Kelly, you know, 484 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: coined the term g man. 485 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 2: Not in the context in which Hoover and his men 486 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 2: relayed to the relayed to the press in terms of 487 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 2: what happened. You know, the the Kelly's were in Tennessee 488 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 2: when they get caught, and it was there that was 489 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: this little girl that they kidnapped and help help lead 490 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: the Feds to where they are or where they were. 491 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 2: But Kelly had gotten up in the middle of the 492 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 2: night to go to the bathroom and he's just as 493 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: just in his underwear, and that's when he sees some 494 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: of the federal agents and he says, where have you been. 495 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: I've been waiting for you, That's all he says. But 496 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 2: what gets flipped around is the the the Feds tell 497 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: the press some outrageous story about how frightened he was saying, 498 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 2: don't kill me, g Man, don't kill me, and you 499 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 2: know that was didn't happen at all. But of course 500 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 2: talk about Catherine being a good PR person. No one 501 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: knew PR better than Hoover, and that was one of 502 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 2: the big things that Hoover was doing at the time, 503 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 2: using the press to be able to put in position 504 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 2: how great his organization was. So he was going to 505 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 2: perpetrate that particular nonsense, you know. And Kelly was the 506 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 2: first one to say, you know, why are you telling 507 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: people that I never said that. I never said that. 508 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 2: How do you guys feel about walking around saying that, 509 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: g Man? So it was the context in which that 510 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 2: particular story was relayed to the press, and gosshould talk 511 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: about people loving the legend. People love that legend. Not true, 512 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 2: but they like it. They like it and it makes 513 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: for good press. 514 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: Well, getting back to Catherine, is it true she called 515 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: Jaeger who herself? 516 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, of course she did. 517 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: She did, she did, because it's just so fantastic. Oh 518 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: my gosh, of course she did. But again, this is 519 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: the reason we love her. 520 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was a scoundrel. I mean, she certainly knew 521 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: how to play the system both ways, and she was 522 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: going to make sure that when she did when they 523 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 2: did get caught. Oh, now suddenly she's the victim. She's 524 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: the She is the quintessential narcissist. You're either the hero 525 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: or the victim, and she just happened to be the 526 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: victim in the story when she's talking with Hoover, because 527 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 2: now she says to Hoover, I let me help you, 528 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 2: because she was so abusive. I had no idea what 529 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 2: he was up to. I'm just this frail being at 530 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 2: home waiting for my husband. I didn't even know he 531 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 2: was a bootlegger. And you know, you bat the eyes 532 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 2: to a lot of men and they're going to fall 533 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: for that, but you're not gonna Hoover's not going to 534 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: fall for it because Hoover doesn't play for that team. 535 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 2: The only woman that Hoover ever fell for that was 536 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 2: a gangster type was Ma Barker. He was infatuated with Ma. 537 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 2: She reminded him an awful lot of his own mother, 538 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: and he was just he was infatuated with her. That 539 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: was another one of the women, gangster women that he 540 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: communicated with. But she wasn't going to give up her 541 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 2: book voice. But Catherine was just happy enough to give 542 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 2: up George if it meant to reduce sentence. 543 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: I've heard that Catherine manipulated the system to get a 544 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 1: lighter sentence. What do you know about that. 545 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 2: Catherine was all about trying to get herself out of 546 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 2: this mess that she was in, and really that her 547 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 2: idea of how to get herself out of that situation 548 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 2: was ramped up when her mother was arrested. Because it 549 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 2: wasn't just Katherine that was involved in this crime. Catherine 550 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 2: just pulled in her entire family. That wasn't as though 551 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: her family were without their own faults. And we walked 552 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 2: and on the illegal side because they certainly were bootleggers 553 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 2: and they took money to be able to hide out criminals. 554 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 2: So they were innocence, But the moment that Catherine's mother 555 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 2: and father and brother were arrested, she definitely was going 556 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 2: to flip on Kelly, and George was happy to let 557 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,399 Speaker 2: her do that, and so her being able to get 558 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:30,919 Speaker 2: in and manipulate the prosecuting attorney, the judge, being able 559 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 2: to manipulate the jailers to give her an opportunity to 560 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 2: see her mother, to communicate with her parents. She thought 561 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 2: all of this was going to lead to a lighter sentence. 562 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 2: It did lead to a lighter sentence, even though it 563 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 2: was quite substantial, and we think she got over. She 564 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 2: got over a dozen years. She didn't serve a dozen years. 565 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 2: And you see these great pictures of her when she 566 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 2: arrives in court, which, by the way, Kelly's trial was 567 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 2: the first one to be filmed, and you can see 568 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 2: just what she comes to court wearing. Who comes to 569 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 2: court wearing silk? She comes to court wearing a tight, 570 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 2: tight fitting silk outfit. Now tight fitting. You know, she 571 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 2: was a tiny lady anyway, and very curvy, but she 572 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: knew what she was doing. I mean, this is how 573 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,240 Speaker 2: you sway an all male jury. 574 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, she looked like a movie star. 575 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 2: And they love that. Don't think they didn't play to that. 576 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 2: They were the first criminals to be transported from where 577 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 2: they arrest where they were arrested, to where they were 578 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,919 Speaker 2: going to be tried by plane, and they played that 579 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 2: like they were Princess Diana and the King Charles landing 580 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 2: at an airport, waving at the crowd. They were Clark 581 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 2: Gable and Vivian Lee, happy to welcome the public and 582 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: answer questions and to give a grin to the cameras. 583 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 2: They weren't. They weren't ashamed or shy at all. 584 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: And they even played off each other in cold He 585 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: has his jacket off, his sleeves are rolled up, he's 586 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: leaned back with his arm around her. They look like 587 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: they don't have a care in the world. 588 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing, because I think that they didn't. They 589 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 2: didn't believe that they were going to receive the heavy 590 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 2: penalty that they received. They thought that it was going 591 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 2: to swing a different way. And he had, you know, 592 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: poor George. When they were walking into court together, someone 593 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 2: makes an offhanded comment about his wife, and of course 594 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 2: it was all it was all planned by her. She 595 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 2: battered her eyes at some of those guards who you know, 596 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 2: made a disparaging remark about her, and Kelly was outraged 597 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 2: and came at them, and they bashed him in the 598 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: head with a six shooter. So, in one of those 599 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 2: amazing stills from there from their courtroom appearance, he's got 600 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 2: a goose egg on his forehead and she's sitting right 601 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 2: there beside him, not acting like he'd been hit and 602 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 2: had it all. But you know, very pleased that there 603 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 2: was this last minute, magnanimous fight over her. She loved it. 604 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 2: She was just soaking it in. 605 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: And when she went to prison, was it in West Virginia. 606 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 2: That's absolutely correct. She did get moved because she wanted 607 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 2: to be with her mother. So yeah, eventually she does 608 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 2: get moved to West Virginia with her mom. 609 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 1: You know, what is the deal with Catherine and Steve Stevenson. 610 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 2: First of all, who names their kid Steve Stephenson. I mean, 611 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 2: you don't think right off that there's going to be 612 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 2: some teasing in school. 613 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: But. 614 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 2: You know, she she is enamored with the bootlegging lifestyle. 615 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 2: She rides along with Steve Stevenson on some of his 616 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 2: jobs when she meets him, and he too, is a 617 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 2: guy who likes to flaunt money. He was a little 618 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 2: bit more overt than George was, but you know, he 619 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 2: was like a diamond Jim Brady with a pinky ring 620 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 2: that had a diamond in it, and was really very 621 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 2: vocal about how much money he had, how much money 622 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 2: he could get. But you know, he and George had 623 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 2: worked together in previous jobs and were involved in and 624 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 2: we're involved in a murder situation even before George actually 625 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 2: takes takes his Steve's girl. The two of them had 626 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 2: a background, and you know that's that's one of the 627 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 2: things that Catherine takes advantage of there as well. She 628 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 2: was going to go with anybody that had money. 629 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: Well, you said it, I mean she had an agenda. 630 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 2: She did. She she wants what she wants and there's 631 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 2: a way to get it. And even though it's the 632 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 2: nineteen thirties, don't tell me I can't get it. I'm 633 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 2: either gonna You know, you can get what you want 634 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 2: in life three ways. You can either work hard for it, 635 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 2: you can inherit it, or you can steal it. She 636 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 2: wasn't a hard worker. She had nothing to inherit, and 637 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 2: so she was going to steal it. And that's exactly 638 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 2: what she did, I mean her second husband. There's some 639 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,479 Speaker 2: question about whether or not she murdered that poor guy. 640 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 2: They said he committed suicide and left a suicide note. 641 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 2: But her second husband was illiterate, couldn't read or write, 642 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 2: So who wrote that note. I don't know that we'll 643 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 2: ever get to the bottom of that, but that's the 644 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 2: kind of caliber of person Catherine was. 645 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: Well, Chris, I cannot thank you enough for sharing all 646 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,839 Speaker 1: of your work and your research and your knowledge with 647 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: us today. I'm enthralled. I've got to go back and 648 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 1: do some more research on kidnapping. I thought I knew, 649 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: but I didn't know. So I just appreciate it and 650 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: look forward to talking to you again. 651 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 2: Well I look forward to it too. Thank you so 652 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 2: much for your time and the opportunity, and I sure 653 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 2: hope the listeners to Z seven really enjoy this talk 654 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 2: and want to go out and buy Meet the Kellys, y'all. 655 00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I 656 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: all always due with a quote. I don't mind George 657 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: taking my girl, but they took my dog. I wish 658 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: he had left the dog. Little Steve Stevens in the 659 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: book Meet the Kellys. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is 660 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: Zone seven.