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Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

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Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news.

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Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Well it's happening again. We are going

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Speaker 1: back to school and this week's episode is all about education.

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Speaker 1: At Stuyvesant High School this year, one of the most

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Speaker 1: competitive exam schools in all of New York City and

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Speaker 1: indeed in the country, eight hundred and ninety five slots

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Speaker 1: were offered to freshmen and only seven of those slots

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Speaker 1: were offered to African American students. At Bronx High School

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Speaker 1: of Science, out of eight hundred and three accepted students,

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Speaker 1: only twelve were African American. These outcomes were treated as

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Speaker 1: a crisis throughout New York City. They cast light on

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Speaker 1: a deep question about the nature and need for affirmative action.

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Speaker 1: Mayor Bill de Blasio, on the side running for president,

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Speaker 1: waited in earlier the summer with an op ed arguing

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Speaker 1: that the city's exam schools should essentially be abolished in

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Speaker 1: the form of which they exist. They should be changed.

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Speaker 1: He said, to schools that admit the top percentage of

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Speaker 1: students from all of the middle schools around the city

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Speaker 1: instead of relying on an exam, a fundamental shift in

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Speaker 1: a mechanism of choice that has existed for decades is

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Speaker 1: inherently fascinating, and it raises the fascinating question about whether

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Speaker 1: a debate around testing and affirmative action should be the

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Speaker 1: debate that we're having right now. I was lucky enough

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Speaker 1: to discuss it with a colleague and friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: pressor Randy Kennedy of Harvard Law School. Randy's the author of,

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Speaker 1: among many other books, a terrific book called four Discrimination, Race,

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Speaker 1: Affirmative Action, and the Law, which you wrote about five

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Speaker 1: years ago, and the title of that book says it all.

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Speaker 1: Randy has always been a very strong supporter of affirmative action.

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Speaker 1: So I began my conversation with him by asking what

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Speaker 1: were his initial thoughts watching this drama in New City unfold? First,

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Speaker 1: why is it that we are spending so much time

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Speaker 1: and effort on these schools, wonderful schools where they educate

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Speaker 1: relatively few people. All of a sudden there is a crisis. Well,

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Speaker 1: the way in which we even talk about this, we

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Speaker 1: talk about these schools are so important. It's so important

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Speaker 1: to get in these schools because these are the schools

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Speaker 1: from you know that provide a ticket out of well,

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Speaker 1: what do they provide a ticket out of? They provide

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Speaker 1: a ticket out of substandard schooling. One of the reasons

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Speaker 1: why everybody is going nuts about this, why people try

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Speaker 1: so hard to get in these schools, is because they

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Speaker 1: want to escape regular school. So number one, why aren't

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Speaker 1: we thinking more about the character of regular school? Why

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Speaker 1: are we so willing to countenance a system in which

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Speaker 1: we sort of accept that the regular schools, the schools

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Speaker 1: that the great majority of people go to, are substandard,

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Speaker 1: And what we're focusing on are the conditions under which

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Speaker 1: people can escape those schools. So number one, we need

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Speaker 1: to focus more on let's make regular school a lot

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Speaker 1: better so that there's not this obsession with escaping them.

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Speaker 1: So I agree with you, of course that we need

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Speaker 1: to focus more on making every school in New York

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Speaker 1: City a good school, a functional school, a better than

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Speaker 1: average school. But at the same time, I want to

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Speaker 1: push back about why we're obsessing over this. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's just that other schools are perceived as substandard,

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Speaker 1: although that's part of it. I think that elite schools

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Speaker 1: like Stuyvesant, like Bronx Science, like Hunter are the public

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Speaker 1: equivalent of elite private schools, which are very important to

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Speaker 1: the cultural life of elites. And that's because they proportionately

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Speaker 1: send so many kids to fancy colleges, which are themselves

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Speaker 1: the focus of elite accomplishment. And so nationally people are

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Speaker 1: obsessing because they think that access to that elite determines

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Speaker 1: who are our national leaders. They do, and I will

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Speaker 1: still say we are overinvesting in this part of the debate.

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Speaker 1: And I think that I have two and interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: people on the right I'm thinking of Clarence Thomas, and

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Speaker 1: people on the left, I'm thinking of polemicists that we're

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Speaker 1: writing in the late nineteen sixties agree on this. There's

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Speaker 1: a way in which we're so focused on the rules

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Speaker 1: and regulations and you know, the selection devices for these

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Speaker 1: elite institutions, that we're not paying enough attention to the

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Speaker 1: institutions that are going to educate the great mass of people. Secondly,

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Speaker 1: second point, I think that we are suffering from a

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Speaker 1: type of scarcity that need not be you know, we

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Speaker 1: keep talking about the few schools that are the select

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Speaker 1: elite schools. Well, to the credit of New York City,

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Speaker 1: I think they have tried to expand the number of

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Speaker 1: them over time. But wouldn't you agree that at some

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Speaker 1: point the expansion ceases to be mean, yes, it does.

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Speaker 1: And then okay, so that's right at some point and

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Speaker 1: if we're talking not at six, but it's some larger

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Speaker 1: not fine, and at some point we're still I'm not

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to get through the dilemma. At some point,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have scarcity. You can't have a million

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Speaker 1: seats for elite schools. If you're going to have an

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Speaker 1: elite school, there's necessarily going to be cut off points.

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Speaker 1: There's necessarily going to be dilemma. So let me go

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Speaker 1: to that, you know, to put it bluntly, I am

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Speaker 1: not with Mayor Deblasio and what he's talking about. The

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Speaker 1: Mayor has said pretty expressly he thinks the problem is

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Speaker 1: the test. It could be. I don't think that anything

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Speaker 1: should be off the table. I think that people, you know,

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Speaker 1: is this test testing for what we're looking for? Fine,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not saying that the test should be

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Speaker 1: beyond question. I do think, however, in these discussions, it

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Speaker 1: is often the case that people stone the messenger. In

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Speaker 1: my view, in this debate, the messenger is the test.

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Speaker 1: It's the test is a Seis McGraph. The test is

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Speaker 1: telling us things that are happening in society. What this

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Speaker 1: test is telling us is that in terms of mastering

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Speaker 1: all sorts of subjects, some kids are doing a lot

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Speaker 1: better than other kids. And it seems to me a question, well,

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Speaker 1: why is that? How can we help the kids that

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Speaker 1: are not doing so well do better? But can I

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Speaker 1: try to answer Randy Kennedy with Randy Kennedy. So you've argued,

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Speaker 1: and you argue this very explicitly in your book for Discrimination,

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Speaker 1: that there's a shorthand answer for why we're getting this message,

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Speaker 1: and that is the systematic history of race based discrimination

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Speaker 1: that extended from slavery through segregation until very very recently.

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Speaker 1: And I think you were born in nineteen fifty four,

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Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, So that means that you were

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Speaker 1: born in the year when segregation was made illegal. But

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Speaker 1: it didn't end for decades efforts, and in some places

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Speaker 1: in the United States schools are still de facto segregated,

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Speaker 1: even if it's not according to law. And you also

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Speaker 1: argued that given this systematic, ongoing structure of oppression, that

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Speaker 1: we need to diversify elite institutions in response to this historical,

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Speaker 1: demonstrable phenomenon that's ongoing. So why isn't that the answer

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Speaker 1: the test. We're not stoning the test. We're acknowledging that

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Speaker 1: the test is representing some systematic injustice, and we're saying,

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Speaker 1: let's find some alternative mechanism. Call it discriminatory if you will,

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Speaker 1: you call the discrimination, you didn't mind calling it that,

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Speaker 1: in order to remedy those structures. It's not a remedy

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Speaker 1: for those structures. It's a mistake to think that the

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Speaker 1: affirmative action regime is the panacea for the problems that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about. The affirmative action regime makes a small cut.

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Speaker 1: It gives some benefit to those who are at the

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Speaker 1: upper levels of the marginalized and the oppressed, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't do a whole lot more than that. And I've

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Speaker 1: seen it. That's right. I mean, I am an affirmative

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Speaker 1: action baby. It is too easy to have the affirmative

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Speaker 1: action regime in place, get year after year after year

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Speaker 1: you're ten percent, and then forget about it. I don't

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Speaker 1: want that to happen. In fact, the problem with affirmative action,

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Speaker 1: as far as i'm concerned it's far too conservative and intervention.

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Speaker 1: We need something considerably more radical to deal with this

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Speaker 1: still massive problem that we have of you know, structures

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Speaker 1: of racial inequality that are baked in to our society.

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Speaker 1: What do you have in mind? What's the radical transformation

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Speaker 1: that you would you would imagine because you're what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about is abandoning w. Du Bois's talented ten rationale

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Speaker 1: for creating an African American elite on the theory that

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Speaker 1: that would in the long run, contribute to what he

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Speaker 1: still called the uplifting of the race. First of all,

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Speaker 1: you know, one thing I've seen in the commentary about

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Speaker 1: the schools, there was a time in the recent past

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Speaker 1: where there were more black kids at these schools. That

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Speaker 1: has fallen down, and some people speculate that one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why it has fallen down, the numbers have

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Speaker 1: fallen is because of the dismantling of various special pipeline

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Speaker 1: programs to try to you know, nourish and push the talented,

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Speaker 1: you know, the talented tenth Listen, I'm a talent tenth person,

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Speaker 1: a talent tenth man, a Duboisian. But again, that is

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Speaker 1: that that's that's something I don't want to. That's why

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get rid of that. But that

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Speaker 1: is not going to change enough to make me satisfied.

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Speaker 1: You asked me, well, what do you want to do?

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I'm not I'm not a professional educator

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Speaker 1: of this sort. I think though, that one thing that

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Speaker 1: we need to do is not be satisfied with what

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Speaker 1: we have and what we have had, namely this affirmative

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Speaker 1: action regime. You know, for the past couple of decades,

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Speaker 1: we need to think a new about things. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you something that I'm thinking a new about diversity.

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Speaker 1: It has now become totally conventional, this mirror notion. You know,

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Speaker 1: the schools don't look like New York City, the mirror idea,

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Speaker 1: they'll look like America. Idea is okay if you are

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Speaker 1: part of a group that is large enough to be

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Speaker 1: able to claim a fairly big part of that pie.

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Speaker 1: If you come from a small group, however, that mirroring

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Speaker 1: idea doesn't look so good. What about the quote problem

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Speaker 1: of overrepresentation, or to put it differently, is it the

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Speaker 1: case that there are too many Asian Americans in the schools? Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you're going to get No one wants

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Speaker 1: to say that. No one wants to say it, but

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Speaker 1: it seems to me, although our employer or Harvard University

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Speaker 1: is being sued on the theory that intentionally or otherwise,

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Speaker 1: our admissions office is similarly treating Asian Americans as this

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Speaker 1: as though they were overrepresented and therefore has been restricting

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Speaker 1: the numbers. Now, to be clear, our employer denies it,

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Speaker 1: you know, three ways till next Sunday. But that is

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Speaker 1: the allegation in this say, that is the allegation. And

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Speaker 1: I must say, for me, this issue has taken on

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Speaker 1: more prominence than it has in the past. For me,

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Speaker 1: you know, this looks like America. It seems to me

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Speaker 1: is quite problematic. First of all, the United States is

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Speaker 1: too complicated and diverse for this looks like America metaphor

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Speaker 1: to actually have real purchase. So now we're really getting

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Speaker 1: into the meat of it. So the language of looks

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Speaker 1: like America is the language of the diversity rationale, which

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Speaker 1: you know, as you know far better than I, the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court treats as the only, at least for the moment,

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Speaker 1: constitutional rationale to justify affirmative action. And it's not just

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Speaker 1: that you can't be in any institution of higher learning

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Speaker 1: without getting a steady diet of the word diversity is

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Speaker 1: our key value. We've got diversity reports, we have diversity deans,

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Speaker 1: we have diversity officers. It infuses our whole way of

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Speaker 1: doing things at a university like Harvard where we both teach.

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Speaker 1: And I hear you questioning that orthodox, Yes, very much

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Speaker 1: one of the virtues, of course, of the word diversity.

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Speaker 1: Who the people behind the coining of it? You know,

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Speaker 1: I think well of them. They were onto something. They

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Speaker 1: wanted to change things. They wanted to redistribute power and

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Speaker 1: opportunity downwards, as do I. And sometimes in order to

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Speaker 1: do that, you actual onto an idea, a slogan that

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Speaker 1: has good strategic opacity. It is a wonderfully ambiguous strategic work.

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Speaker 1: What does diversity mean? And all of our schools, for

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Speaker 1: various reasons, some political, some legal, stay within the ambiguity

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Speaker 1: and really play that ambiguity. So let's play out why

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Speaker 1: they do that. I agree strategic opacity is the key

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Speaker 1: term here. In the first instance, it's that if they

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Speaker 1: say we have a quota, then they lose. The Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court strikes down it's illegal. They can't do it. So

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Speaker 1: that's one reason. The second is no one wants to say, well,

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Speaker 1: we want to use positive discrimination, which is what a

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Speaker 1: lot of countries call it, and which you alluded to

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Speaker 1: in the title of your book. And so no one

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Speaker 1: wants to say that because no one wants to say

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Speaker 1: we're discriminating, because discrimination sounds bad. And last, but Ali,

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Speaker 1: no one wants to say that we're giving a leg

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Speaker 1: up to anybody because it undercuts some underlying idea of

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Speaker 1: fairness or merit whatever that exactly mean it, and it

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Speaker 1: makes the people who were being helped feel bad, some

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Speaker 1: of them anyway, They don't you know, No, I'm not

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Speaker 1: getting a leg up. I mean I don't feel that

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Speaker 1: way at all. I have gotten a leg up. Don't

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Speaker 1: feel bad about it. You know, you get a leg

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Speaker 1: up and you hope to vindicate yourself by doing good things.

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Speaker 1: Seems to me that, you know, I don't. I don't

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Speaker 1: think there's a bad thing about giving people a leg up. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's also important to add in there that just about

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Speaker 1: everyone walking around the NOD the university has had a

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Speaker 1: leg up from somewhere, of course, And you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean I certainly had a significant leg up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, I remember showing up in college and realizing

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Speaker 1: that I knew things about professors, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: knew what books are reading, I knew where to go,

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Speaker 1: and not everybody knew those things, and that was a

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Speaker 1: huge leg up. Ira katz Nelson. You know, when affirmative

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Speaker 1: action was white. The fact of the matter is that

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Speaker 1: white people, rich people, absolutely we have had legs up.

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Speaker 1: It's it just becomes obscured. We don't call it affirmative action.

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Speaker 1: We don't call it giving a leg up. They have

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Speaker 1: all sorts of privileges, but we view it as you know,

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Speaker 1: just sort of natural as right. One of the real

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Speaker 1: big difficulties I think that we confront is we really

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Speaker 1: don't know what we're seeking to accomplish. You know, we

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Speaker 1: will use these terms racial justice, racial fairness, racially quality.

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Speaker 1: Well what is that exactly? But so let me push

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Speaker 1: back on that. Don't we all know that if we

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Speaker 1: had a society that distributed opportunity in the form of

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Speaker 1: education fairly, that what we would then see is results

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Speaker 1: of tests like this one, where the excellence of performing

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Speaker 1: well on this test. And I'm not saying that's the

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Speaker 1: only excellence there is in life, but where the specific

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Speaker 1: excellence are performing well on this test would be demonstrated

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Speaker 1: to be roughly equal across every part of the population.

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Speaker 1: And that's what racial equality would look like. An environment

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Speaker 1: and where in which we had accounted for and repaired

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Speaker 1: the legacy of discrimination so that every candidate really genuinely

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Speaker 1: was on a level playing field. Isn't that the desert

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Speaker 1: are on for everybody? I'm not, first of all, no,

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Speaker 1: I do not think so, okay, tell me. I think

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Speaker 1: that there is a real debate in our society about

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Speaker 1: what we want. So you know, the majority of members

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Speaker 1: of the Supreme Court would not embrace what you just said.

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Speaker 1: I would embrace what you just said, or at least largely.

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Speaker 1: But there are a lot of people who would say no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: no no. What racial fairness means is they have a

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Speaker 1: procedural idea. Racial fairness means that you don't purposely discriminate

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Speaker 1: against people. And if you're not purposely discriminating against people, hey, fairness.

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Speaker 1: But if we both agree, that's not really fair, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean true, I mean that's that's not defensible. I

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Speaker 1: think you can only defend procedural fairness if you first

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Speaker 1: raised everybody to a level playing field. Otherwise it's genuinely

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Speaker 1: not fair. So I take it what we're arguing about

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Speaker 1: is okay, given that we haven't done that, we should

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Speaker 1: We both agree we should do that. We haven't done that. Now,

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Speaker 1: what I mean, you know, my my, my opening gambit

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Speaker 1: is we've had an affirmative action regime in place for

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Speaker 1: a couple of decades. Man. That regime is in my view, inadequate, unsatisfactory.

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Speaker 1: It has aspects to it that are real problems. I

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Speaker 1: mentioned one before, the looks like America rationale another one.

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Speaker 1: It's right, there is the whole problem of double speak.

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Speaker 1: You know. The fact of the matter is we can't

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Speaker 1: even partly because of the law, in particular the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court of the United States, people don't even speak frankly

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Speaker 1: about what's going on. And so, you know, the diversity rationale,

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Speaker 1: we don't even the universities can't even talk in terms

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Speaker 1: of distributive justice or reparatory justice. The very man you

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Speaker 1: say that losing court exactly. So people have glommed on

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Speaker 1: to diversity as a pedagogical theory. Everybody knows that that's

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Speaker 1: not really what's animating it. But but we're trapped, we're

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Speaker 1: trapped in double speak. And I guess one of the

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Speaker 1: things that is, you know, impelling me at this moment

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Speaker 1: is I feel impatient with the double speak. I feel

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Speaker 1: impatient with you know now decades long regime. I want

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Speaker 1: something better for goodness sakes. So here's my question. And

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Speaker 1: in some sense this is the thing that motivated me

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Speaker 1: most to want to talk to you about this. It's

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, but in twenty thirteen you spent your time

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Speaker 1: and your effort, and your concentration and your focus in

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Speaker 1: writing a whole book defending the traditional conception of affirmative action.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm wondering what has changed in the last six

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Speaker 1: years that's pushing the evolution of your thought on this.

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Speaker 1: I have a few candidate ideas, but first I want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, get it straight from the horse's mouth. What

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Speaker 1: do you think is causing your views to change? I

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Speaker 1: am increasingly unwilling to settle for the double talk at school,

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Speaker 1: and you've been around me. I say affirmative action. By

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Speaker 1: the way, even that even that people don't say affirmative

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Speaker 1: that phrase is gone. I say affirmative action. I say,

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Speaker 1: why am I willing to countenance putting a thumb on

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Speaker 1: the scale to help out certain people. You know, some

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Speaker 1: people say, well, that's reverse discrimination, that you're putting a

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Speaker 1: thumb on the scale to help certain people. I have

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Speaker 1: a justification for that. Yeah, I'm not embarrassed by it,

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Speaker 1: but I think it should be stated straight forwardly. So

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Speaker 1: some of it is frustration growing frustration. Yes, So I

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Speaker 1: was thinking in a big world of what's happened between

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Speaker 1: you know, say twenty twelve when you were working on

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Speaker 1: the book and then twenty thirteen when it came out.

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Speaker 1: And now one thing I thought of immediately was we

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Speaker 1: were eight years in office. To take the title of

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Speaker 1: tany easy Coats's book, Obama was president during that period

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Speaker 1: of time. There wasn't fundamental structural change with respect to

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Speaker 1: the social position or economication of African Americans. And so

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Speaker 1: I thought to myself, well, here in Barack Obama we

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Speaker 1: have the ultimate manifestation of the talented tenth. So if

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Speaker 1: there is a justification for the talented tenth theory, he

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Speaker 1: was it. Do you feel frustration connected to the thought

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Speaker 1: that that didn't seem to pan out at the broader

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Speaker 1: scale of change. No, I don't know that. That's not it.

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Speaker 1: That is not part of my thinking. I defend affirmative action.

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Speaker 1: I think in fact that over the course of my life,

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Speaker 1: affirmative action is one of the things about which America

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Speaker 1: should be most proud. The problem is that it hasn't

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Speaker 1: been pushed enough, and hadn't been pushed downward enough. It's

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Speaker 1: not broad enough, it's not comprehensive enough. But if all

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Speaker 1: that is true, why don't we look at using a

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Speaker 1: single test for admission to some institutions and say, let's

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Speaker 1: be radical. Let's do something radically different that will involve

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Speaker 1: a thumb on the scale, so you could give more

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Speaker 1: points on the test to people from disadvantage backgrounds. That

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Speaker 1: would be overt it wouldn't be fake, and it might

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Speaker 1: make it. It It would make a difference statistically, it might,

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Speaker 1: And I'm not horror struck by that. One difficulty with

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Speaker 1: that is the problem of obscuring continuing weaknesses at my school,

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Speaker 1: my school, your school. I've been in you know, symposia,

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Speaker 1: been in sessions where people talk about affirmative action, and

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Speaker 1: I've heard students who, by the way, we're beneficiaries of

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Speaker 1: affirmative action, get really haughty and indignant and and in fact,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you've seen this where students who you know

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Speaker 1: have been benefited deny and get even angry if somebody

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Speaker 1: suggests that they were a beneficiary. In fact, that is

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Speaker 1: part of the lore, the racial lore of elite institutions,

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Speaker 1: where you know you'll have student, a Latino student, a

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Speaker 1: black student. Well, you know, well, why are you mad?

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Speaker 1: I'm mad because I was talking with my roommate, and

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Speaker 1: my roommate suggested that, you know, the reason I'm here

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Speaker 1: is because of affirmative action. You know, how dare he

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Speaker 1: say that? And you don't think that student has a

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Speaker 1: point to say that that. It's a kind of assault

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Speaker 1: on the person's equality or sense of being there to

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Speaker 1: say that. No, no, no, you know no, I think that.

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Speaker 1: I think what's happened is it might also might not

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Speaker 1: be true in any given instance. It might be true,

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Speaker 1: it might not be it might not be true. And

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Speaker 1: that's right. And I've seen any number of white people

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Speaker 1: who failed to get what they wanted and their way

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Speaker 1: of sort of you know, accommodating failure. Oh I would

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Speaker 1: have gotten it, but you know that black one over

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Speaker 1: there got it because of affirmative action. Now you think

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Speaker 1: get an affirmative action, He just beat you out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but let's go back to what I was talking about,

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Speaker 1: because there is the student who takes offense. What that shows,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's one of the you know, I've defended

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Speaker 1: affirmative action. Does affirmative action have certain costs? However, Yes,

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Speaker 1: it does have certain costs, and we've got to look

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Speaker 1: at those costs, and this is one of them. There

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Speaker 1: is a certain sort of impulse for the nile. You know, No,

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Speaker 1: I'm no, I'm not behind this kid to the left

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Speaker 1: of me, whose parents, you know, went to college, who

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Speaker 1: went to private school, who had all the benefits. My

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Speaker 1: parents didn't go to college. Let's say my parents did,

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Speaker 1: but let's let's imagine somebody whose parents did not. I

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Speaker 1: grew up in a house that didn't have books. I didn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, I didn't. I was behind, behind behind. That

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Speaker 1: kid on day one might very well be behind. But

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Speaker 1: that's not a big deal, as far I would say

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Speaker 1: to that kid, don't be ashamed that. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: if you're behind one day one. What matters is what's

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Speaker 1: happening on day three sixty five. You're not going to

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Speaker 1: push yourself to catch up if you don't know that

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Speaker 1: you're behind. Eighteen sixty five is not that long ago. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I knew my grandmother for most of my life. My

400
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Speaker 1: grandmother's parents were slaves. For God's sakes, in eighteen sixty five,

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Speaker 1: the great mass of black people were illiterate. Yes, black people.

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Speaker 1: And you know, and another thing about this, and when

403
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Speaker 1: people talk about this issue, and you know how few

404
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Speaker 1: black people got into, you know, the special school, there's

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Speaker 1: a way in which these sorts of discussions make it

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Speaker 1: seem as though you know, well, you know, poor black people.

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Speaker 1: Damn you know what's deficiency, deficiency deficiency. Black people in

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Speaker 1: the history of the world have absolutely a remarkable history.

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Speaker 1: If you take a look at where black people were

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Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty five and where black people are today,

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Speaker 1: black people have been coming on and coming on strong,

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Speaker 1: will continue to come on strong, I think if they

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Speaker 1: have to be clear eyed and the reality of racial oppression,

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Speaker 1: continuing racial oppression is that's right, certain deficiencies. Don't forget that,

415
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Speaker 1: don't overlook it, don't be ashamed by it. So you've

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Speaker 1: got to be honest. You've got to be honest, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And you can't be soft. You've got to be tough.

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Speaker 1: You've got to be willing to say, Yep, day one,

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Speaker 1: I come to this class, I look around, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: with people. You know, Yep, these other people they're ahead

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Speaker 1: of me. And because they're ahead of me, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to work harder. I'm gonna have to go to

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Speaker 1: the teacher and say to the teacher, let'stland, teacher, don't

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Speaker 1: tell me that I'm just the same as John over here,

425
00:28:18,796 --> 00:28:22,436
Speaker 1: because no, I'm not. I'm behind John. What I want

426
00:28:22,476 --> 00:28:26,596
Speaker 1: you to do, mister or miss teacher, is help me

427
00:28:26,756 --> 00:28:29,836
Speaker 1: catch up. So in some sense, it's almost like you

428
00:28:29,876 --> 00:28:34,196
Speaker 1: see the Deblasio's suggestion as an affront to the hard

429
00:28:34,236 --> 00:28:37,436
Speaker 1: working efforts of people who are actually trying to double

430
00:28:37,436 --> 00:28:40,076
Speaker 1: down and work harder. So saying let's eliminate the test

431
00:28:40,196 --> 00:28:43,436
Speaker 1: somehow stick in your crawl because you think it's saying

432
00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:47,116
Speaker 1: you can't succeed on the basis of I'm not. No,

433
00:28:47,156 --> 00:28:49,396
Speaker 1: I'm not. The test is not a fetish to me.

434
00:28:50,676 --> 00:28:56,636
Speaker 1: But at the same time, let's look at the test realistically. Again.

435
00:28:56,756 --> 00:28:59,476
Speaker 1: The test, as far as I'm concerned, as a seismograph,

436
00:28:59,956 --> 00:29:05,636
Speaker 1: it is registering something. Let's pay attention to what it

437
00:29:05,876 --> 00:29:10,676
Speaker 1: is registering. And the problem I sometimes with you know

438
00:29:10,796 --> 00:29:16,596
Speaker 1: de Blasio's suggestion and others who you know, Let's get

439
00:29:16,716 --> 00:29:20,196
Speaker 1: rid of the test, right, Let's get rid of the

440
00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:23,516
Speaker 1: message that the test is bringing to us. No, no, no,

441
00:29:23,756 --> 00:29:25,636
Speaker 1: I want to listen to that message. And what I

442
00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:31,796
Speaker 1: want is to change the message. I don't want to

443
00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:33,956
Speaker 1: just get rid of the machine that is bringing the

444
00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:39,916
Speaker 1: message to me. It's a deeply powerful lesson, and I'm

445
00:29:39,916 --> 00:29:42,916
Speaker 1: really grateful to you for giving me the chance to

446
00:29:42,956 --> 00:29:44,876
Speaker 1: talk to you about it. Well, thanks a lot. I hope,

447
00:29:45,356 --> 00:29:47,156
Speaker 1: I hope you're going to write about it. Well, I

448
00:29:47,516 --> 00:29:50,236
Speaker 1: write about everything else, I'll write about this. Thank you, Rendy,

449
00:29:50,276 --> 00:29:51,676
Speaker 1: and thank you for being here on deep background to

450
00:29:51,756 --> 00:30:01,516
Speaker 1: be well. Since I talked to Randy Kennedy, a task

451
00:30:01,556 --> 00:30:04,596
Speaker 1: force appointed my married Bill de Blasio has released a

452
00:30:04,636 --> 00:30:07,916
Speaker 1: proposal recommending that New York City get rid of all

453
00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:11,396
Speaker 1: of its gifted and talented programs and most of its

454
00:30:11,396 --> 00:30:17,116
Speaker 1: selective admissions programs. The proposal wouldn't actually fundamentally change admissions

455
00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:20,876
Speaker 1: at Stuyvesant or the other seven elite high schools, because

456
00:30:20,916 --> 00:30:23,556
Speaker 1: admission in those schools is partly controlled by the state

457
00:30:23,636 --> 00:30:27,316
Speaker 1: government in Albany, and to be clear, Mayr. De Blasio

458
00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:29,676
Speaker 1: has not yet said what parts of this proposal he

459
00:30:29,716 --> 00:30:33,436
Speaker 1: will consider adopting. So we're going to continue to follow

460
00:30:33,516 --> 00:30:38,396
Speaker 1: this very fascinating and important story. In the meantime, though,

461
00:30:38,716 --> 00:30:42,516
Speaker 1: there's something else that's been on my mind, something all

462
00:30:42,556 --> 00:30:46,836
Speaker 1: the way across a continent and an ocean in Hong Kong,

463
00:30:47,276 --> 00:30:52,316
Speaker 1: where protests that began by focusing on a specific law

464
00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:56,876
Speaker 1: that involved the extradition of criminals from Hong Kong into

465
00:30:56,956 --> 00:31:01,796
Speaker 1: China have blossomed if you like them, or ballooned if

466
00:31:01,836 --> 00:31:04,636
Speaker 1: you don't like them, into a more fundamental challenge to

467
00:31:04,716 --> 00:31:10,436
Speaker 1: the legitimacy of the Chinese government's sovereign control over Kong. Now,

468
00:31:10,476 --> 00:31:14,916
Speaker 1: there's something fascinating about this, because if you see politics

469
00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:18,716
Speaker 1: solely through the lens of pragmatic self interest, it's sort

470
00:31:18,756 --> 00:31:21,556
Speaker 1: of hard to imagine that anyone in Hong Kong would

471
00:31:21,596 --> 00:31:25,636
Speaker 1: really think that the People's Republic of China, an enormous,

472
00:31:25,676 --> 00:31:30,116
Speaker 1: powerful country, would do anything other than treat tiny little

473
00:31:30,156 --> 00:31:34,676
Speaker 1: Hong Kong as part of its zone of control. That's

474
00:31:34,676 --> 00:31:37,596
Speaker 1: what the British Empire thought when they ultimately acceded to

475
00:31:37,796 --> 00:31:41,676
Speaker 1: Chinese demands to hand Hong Kong over. They tried to

476
00:31:41,676 --> 00:31:43,836
Speaker 1: get China to make some concessions in China, in fact,

477
00:31:43,916 --> 00:31:46,316
Speaker 1: at the time, promised that it would abide by what

478
00:31:46,396 --> 00:31:50,036
Speaker 1: it called one country, two systems. Hong Kong would be

479
00:31:50,036 --> 00:31:52,716
Speaker 1: part of China one country, but Hong Kong would be

480
00:31:52,716 --> 00:31:56,596
Speaker 1: allowed to maintain something of its distinctive British style government.

481
00:31:56,876 --> 00:31:59,876
Speaker 1: That's the two systems part of it. Seen in terms

482
00:31:59,956 --> 00:32:02,996
Speaker 1: of national self interest, no reason really to expect that

483
00:32:03,076 --> 00:32:04,916
Speaker 1: China would stick with that deal when there was no

484
00:32:04,956 --> 00:32:08,116
Speaker 1: one there to force them to do so. And of

485
00:32:08,116 --> 00:32:10,996
Speaker 1: course no other can tell China what to do when

486
00:32:10,996 --> 00:32:13,516
Speaker 1: it comes to Hong Kong. So if you were a

487
00:32:13,516 --> 00:32:16,996
Speaker 1: pragmatist or a realist, you wouldn't think it was worth

488
00:32:17,396 --> 00:32:21,316
Speaker 1: risking your life going to the streets to protest against

489
00:32:21,396 --> 00:32:24,316
Speaker 1: Chinese sovereignty there. But on the other hand, if you

490
00:32:24,396 --> 00:32:28,076
Speaker 1: see politics more broadly as a zone in which human

491
00:32:28,116 --> 00:32:33,796
Speaker 1: beings try to express their highest aspirations, their ideals, their goals,

492
00:32:34,516 --> 00:32:37,756
Speaker 1: then you can only look on with some degree of admiration,

493
00:32:38,076 --> 00:32:41,836
Speaker 1: albeit in my case slightly horrified admiration, at these young

494
00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:45,956
Speaker 1: protesters who really want Hong Kong to have some kind

495
00:32:45,996 --> 00:32:49,316
Speaker 1: of de facto autonomy from the b A moth that

496
00:32:49,476 --> 00:32:52,956
Speaker 1: is the People's Republic of China. Now, to be clear,

497
00:32:53,276 --> 00:32:55,036
Speaker 1: it's not like a young Hong Kong or can be

498
00:32:55,076 --> 00:32:58,556
Speaker 1: deeply nostalgic for British imperial rule. It's not like the

499
00:32:58,596 --> 00:33:02,116
Speaker 1: British applied a democracy in Hong Kong. Sure there were

500
00:33:02,196 --> 00:33:05,516
Speaker 1: some local choices of figures, but really the colony was

501
00:33:05,596 --> 00:33:09,676
Speaker 1: run by a Governor General appointed in Westminster in London.

502
00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:12,116
Speaker 1: It was an empire and Hong Kong was a part

503
00:33:12,116 --> 00:33:16,636
Speaker 1: of that empire. Nevertheless, somehow the history of a period

504
00:33:16,636 --> 00:33:20,036
Speaker 1: of time in which there was greater independence, greater freedom

505
00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:22,916
Speaker 1: of speech, and greater opportunity to stand up and say

506
00:33:22,916 --> 00:33:25,996
Speaker 1: what you like and don't like, has appealed to the

507
00:33:26,036 --> 00:33:29,876
Speaker 1: minds of young people who are then making this very

508
00:33:29,956 --> 00:33:35,156
Speaker 1: brave and from a realist standpoint, very foolhardy. Stand what

509
00:33:35,236 --> 00:33:37,836
Speaker 1: does that mean for the rest of us? How should

510
00:33:37,836 --> 00:33:42,836
Speaker 1: we feel when we watch the looming cloud of Chinese

511
00:33:42,916 --> 00:33:46,796
Speaker 1: troops being transferred into Hong Kong to send the message

512
00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:49,356
Speaker 1: to the protesters that if you don't back down, there

513
00:33:49,396 --> 00:33:53,196
Speaker 1: could be very serious and violent consequences. Well, I think

514
00:33:53,196 --> 00:33:56,356
Speaker 1: it's an opportunity for us to realize that if our

515
00:33:56,476 --> 00:34:00,436
Speaker 1: only conception of international politics is one that's framed in

516
00:34:00,556 --> 00:34:04,316
Speaker 1: terms of pure power. Then you just have to say, oh,

517
00:34:04,476 --> 00:34:07,796
Speaker 1: those poor SAPs, you know, why are they taking these risks.

518
00:34:07,996 --> 00:34:10,396
Speaker 1: It's all going to end badly for them. That's a

519
00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:13,556
Speaker 1: cynical attitude, and it's a cynical attitude that leaves us

520
00:34:13,636 --> 00:34:18,716
Speaker 1: unable to address the more fundamental to me aspirational or

521
00:34:18,756 --> 00:34:22,796
Speaker 1: moral question, which is how should humans live? Should humans

522
00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:25,876
Speaker 1: actually deserve to have the right to have a say

523
00:34:25,916 --> 00:34:28,836
Speaker 1: in their futures? Is it okay just to say that

524
00:34:28,836 --> 00:34:31,436
Speaker 1: the People's Republic of China with its form of government,

525
00:34:31,636 --> 00:34:33,756
Speaker 1: is the appropriate form of government for the people living

526
00:34:33,756 --> 00:34:35,996
Speaker 1: in Hong Kong, And I want to say, no, we

527
00:34:36,116 --> 00:34:39,796
Speaker 1: really isn't It is appropriate for human beings to try

528
00:34:39,836 --> 00:34:44,196
Speaker 1: to govern themselves. It's inspiring to see people trying to

529
00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:47,516
Speaker 1: do their best. It's moving to see people nobly taking

530
00:34:47,596 --> 00:34:51,196
Speaker 1: a risk, risks to themselves in order to demand some

531
00:34:51,316 --> 00:34:55,436
Speaker 1: form of independence. We shouldn't be pure cynics about foreign affairs,

532
00:34:55,476 --> 00:34:57,956
Speaker 1: because if we are, there's not much left to our

533
00:34:58,076 --> 00:35:01,636
Speaker 1: moral stance. All we can then say is the powerful

534
00:35:01,756 --> 00:35:05,436
Speaker 1: do what they will and the weak suffer what they must.

535
00:35:06,356 --> 00:35:09,756
Speaker 1: At the same time. The real world is the real world.

536
00:35:10,476 --> 00:35:12,996
Speaker 1: The United States is limited in what it can do

537
00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:16,156
Speaker 1: to influence China with respect to what's happening in Hong Kong.

538
00:35:16,796 --> 00:35:18,716
Speaker 1: So I'm not saying give up on a pragmatism. You

539
00:35:18,716 --> 00:35:21,356
Speaker 1: need to use pragmatic tools to get where you want.

540
00:35:21,596 --> 00:35:24,156
Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is, when we set our goals

541
00:35:24,396 --> 00:35:26,596
Speaker 1: for how we want the world to be, we can't

542
00:35:26,676 --> 00:35:29,316
Speaker 1: just assume that the powerful get what they want. We

543
00:35:29,396 --> 00:35:33,516
Speaker 1: have to also simultaneously believe in the possibility and the

544
00:35:33,596 --> 00:35:37,836
Speaker 1: desirability of making the world a more just and fair

545
00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:41,516
Speaker 1: place than it currently is, even under circumstances where getting

546
00:35:41,556 --> 00:35:49,436
Speaker 1: there is very, very difficult. Indeed. Deep Background is brought

547
00:35:49,436 --> 00:35:52,636
Speaker 1: to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Genecott,

548
00:35:52,716 --> 00:35:56,716
Speaker 1: with engineering by Jason Gambrel and Jason Rostkowski. Our showrunner

549
00:35:56,756 --> 00:35:59,556
Speaker 1: is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music is composed by Luis

550
00:35:59,596 --> 00:36:03,876
Speaker 1: gera special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg,

551
00:36:03,916 --> 00:36:06,716
Speaker 1: and Mia Lobel. I'm Noah Feldman. You can follow me

552
00:36:06,756 --> 00:36:10,356
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. Is Deep Background