1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frye. We talked about soap this week. Yeah, 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: we did. Here's a little backstory for why I had 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: it on my list. When Holly and I first joined 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: the podcast, we were moving from another podcast that we'd 7 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: worked on together had a totally different focus, and I 8 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: tried to line myself up some initial starting episodes that 9 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 1: I already had more background familiarity with to make this 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: transitional process hopefully easier, so that I could have a 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: sort of learning by doing of how to research and 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: write these episodes with some stuff that I already had 13 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: some foundational knowledge in to make it a little easy zeer. 14 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: And one of those topics was soap because one of 15 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: my previous jobs was writing for a company that sold 16 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: cleaning and sanitation products, and I wrote like product literature, 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: I wrote newsletters for the businesses that we did business with, 18 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: so I already had knowledge of various things related to 19 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: soap and subpontification and how soap was made, and that 20 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: story about the animal sacrifices being burned and washed down 21 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: the mountain all of that, And then part of it 22 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: was like, is anybody else interested in this? In the 23 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: aspects of it that I find interesting, I don't really know. 24 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: And then part of it was just you know, over time, 25 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I quite needed the training wheel 26 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: of things I already felt like I could almost write 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: off the top of my head, and I never got 28 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: around to it. But then we got a request for it, 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: so great, bring it back. Relearn stuff that I have 30 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: forgotten in the at this point more than twenty well 31 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: more than twenty years since I had that job. Yeah, 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: I have. We talked about subpontification a lot in the 33 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: episode we did on the Lady Who Turned to Soap? 34 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, which I forgot. I have not re listened 35 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: to that, and I remember doing the episode, but like 36 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: the details of it are not in my brain. Yeah, 37 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: And I of course can't think about soap without thinking 38 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: about Fight Club a lot. Oh yeah. I also thought 39 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: about fight Club a lot, and about how to make soap. 40 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: We must first render fat, Yeah, which is I mean, right, 41 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: like in Chuck Polinick's book and in his subsequent film, right, 42 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: it's referencing all of the dirty things that have to 43 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: happen to make soap right, and how that compares to 44 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: our modern society which looks very sanitized in many ways, 45 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: but is ignoring all of the dirty things that have 46 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: to happen to give you a sanitized experience. Uh huh. 47 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: I really love that book. I really hate that A 48 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: lot of people's takeaway was like violence is cool, and 49 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, missed the point entirely. Yeah, and I 50 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: really love that movie as well. One of the things 51 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: that I noticed while doing this research is that a 52 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: whole bunch of articles about soap were written in twenty 53 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: twenty because of COVID. Yeah, a lot of discussion of 54 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: where soap came from. This is one of the things 55 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: that I have found weird about the beginning of COVID 56 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: is that it feels like, to a segment of people, 57 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: the idea that you should wash your hands for thirty 58 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: seconds was new information. Yeah, And stretching back to that 59 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: job that I had where we sold clear in sanitation 60 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: products to restaurants and grocery stores, like I had been 61 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: washing my hands. I had always been washing my hands regularly, 62 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: but specifically washing my hands for thirty seconds with a 63 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: little thing playing in my brain to make sure that 64 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: I washed it for long enough. Like that goes back 65 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: to doing that job more than twenty years ago. And 66 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: so the seemingly surprise information that it seemed like about, yes, 67 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: you should wash your hands and you should use soap, 68 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: I was like, we should have all been doing this 69 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: already all of the time. And another thing that happened 70 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: around that time was that there was kind of a 71 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: little bit of freak out about whether it was okay 72 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: to use the Dove beauty bar marketed is one quarter 73 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: moisturizing cream to wash your hands during the time of 74 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: COVID because it's not actually soap. The answer, yes, it's fine, 75 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: it's fine to do that. It's not technically soap. It 76 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: does include surfact dents, and the surfactants are the important 77 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: part to cleaning your hands sufficiently by washing them. Yeah, 78 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: every time I came across another article that I was like, oh, 79 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: and this is also from twenty twenty when everyone was 80 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: thinking about soap. I'm still thinking about soap, still washing 81 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: my hands. I mean, listen, take away all of the 82 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: cleanliness specific needs, uh huh, not entirely, but like, I'm 83 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: always thinking about soap because it smells good. I'm a 84 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: sucker man. Put pumpkin scent in a soap, I'm buying it. Yeah. 85 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: This is the first year that I've seen and I 86 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: know there are people that are gonna groan at what 87 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: I'm about to say. And yes, I am the most 88 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: basic woman alive. But this year, for the first time, 89 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: I found pumpkin scented laundry detergent. I bought like a 90 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: case of it. I love that business. I want pumpkin 91 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: everything so and I want it year round. So yeah, 92 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm I'm always I'm all about that. Every marketer that 93 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: makes fru freugh Redonka doodle soap that smells like uh cake, 94 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: candy and pumpkins, they're like, Yeah, what's Holly Fry's email address. 95 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: We're a little short this quarter. We gotta to send 96 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: them directly to Holland shoot to marketing her way because 97 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: we know this will pan out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The 98 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: fragrances are also like almost a whole separate history from yes, 99 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: the soap, and something that I did not get into here. 100 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: I read an article that was not exactly like debunking 101 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: the the whole thing about using ash on wool, and 102 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: it would combine with lanelin to make soap. Oh right, 103 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: It didn't feel like it had been written specifically to 104 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: debunk that idea. It was more like, here is an 105 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: experimental approach to this historical fact of how people might 106 00:06:54,800 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: have discovered soap, and this experiment was like, yeah, this 107 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: with the wool and the lanelin that did not actually 108 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: make soap. But one fact thing that they found that 109 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: did make soap was cleaning the like cheesecloth type of 110 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: cloths that would have been used in perfume making, where 111 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: the perfume making would have involved like an oil and 112 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: the fragrance and then repeatedly cycling through the oil and 113 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: the fragrance to like make the perfume that would stick 114 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: on your body. And then you would have these cloths 115 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: left over, and you would need to wash the cloths 116 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: and they would be embedded at that point with like 117 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: fats that had been used in the perfume making process, 118 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: and that really did yield more soap, but is not 119 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: what was mentioned in those Samerian tablets. I found that 120 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: very interesting. I also found it very interesting about how 121 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: some of the marketing of soap as soap became like 122 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: a real commerce industrial product invented some concepts related to 123 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: things like body odor as a product that needed to 124 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: or as an issue that needed to be resolved through 125 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: the use of soap, And it reminded me a little 126 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: bit of the coining of the term halitosis to sell mouthwash. Yeah, 127 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: I do have a question, okay, because those things existed. 128 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: Yeah the short sure, bad breath and body odor did exist. Yes, 129 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: So there is like a fine line of we've solved 130 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: this problem versus any amount of this makes you wrong? Sure? Right? 131 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: And did you find in any of your research like 132 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: that tipping point where it started to be like nothing 133 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: that tips off the robots that you're human should should 134 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: be allowed. I've had kind of oblique references to that 135 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: and to like the differing standards around the world. Like 136 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: when I was in college, I had a girlfriend who 137 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: spent a summer or a year abroad in France, and 138 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: when she got back, she was like, I am so 139 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: mad that now I have to spend all this time 140 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: every single day showering and washing my hair. Because while 141 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: I was in France, it was socially acceptable to like 142 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: have a couple of days pass, Like I still felt 143 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: like I was okay to be out in public if 144 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: it had been a day or two since taking a shower. 145 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: But here in the US it has to be every day, 146 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: and it has to be like the amount of time 147 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: it's taking me to wash my hair every day really sucks, 148 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: and I'm mad that this is like what I have 149 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: to spend my time on. And I have no concept 150 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: of like whether she felt like she had a perceptible 151 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: difference in her level of hygiene with an American versus 152 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: a French standard, but she definitely felt like in the 153 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: United States if she wasn't going out and like if 154 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: she wasn't showering before going out, that she was doing 155 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: something wrong. Es That makes sense. Yeah, I'm sure there's 156 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: probably anthropological and sociological study onto those questions. Yeah, and 157 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: like more specifically how those standards are determined and then 158 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: socially maintained. Yeah. Yeah, it's super fascinating. I mean there 159 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: are also just like the other element of it is 160 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: that there are also just personal preferences within that spectrum, 161 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: right of like yeah, yeah, I do not like when 162 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: my hair is not freshly washed. Me too, But I 163 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: know a lot of people who actually think their hair 164 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: looks better on like the second or third day. Yeah, Yeah, 165 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: and they don't wash even every time they shower, which 166 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: is totally fine, but like everybody has like a different 167 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: yeah space in there where they feel comfortable, so it 168 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: becomes a weird yeah. The sort of like homogenization of 169 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: like ultimate cleanliness as the goal. Oh, sure, is always 170 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: a little bit silly and weird to me. Sometimes an 171 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: algorithm will take me onto I will like wind up 172 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: in curly hair maintenance videos. Oh, I get so many 173 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: of those, which is like a very different, very different 174 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: kind of care than my hair, which is very straight 175 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: and less now that I'm older, but from my teens 176 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: through age forty was also very oily and if I 177 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: did not wash it every day, it felt gross. And 178 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: while like natural skin and body care companies would be like, 179 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: if you're doing it every day, you're stripping the oils 180 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: and if you just stop then it will regulate itself. 181 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: I did not find that to be true ever. But 182 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: like a lot of people whose hair is really curly, 183 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: or people of different races and ethnicities, like shampooing one 184 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: hundred bad idea. I would wager that the couple of 185 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: books that are more focused on cleanliness than on soap, 186 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: which came up in my research, but I did not 187 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: get I did not try to check them out or anything, 188 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: because I thought that they would probably just take me 189 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: down rabbit holes that were not going to help. Probably 190 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: have a lot more of stuff about that, like when, 191 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: like how cultures develop their idea of what clean is 192 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: and how often showering needs to happen to be considered clean. 193 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: And then there are cats that don't bathe at all. 194 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: It's fine, dude, They're fine. They bathe with their mouths. Yeah, yeah, listen, 195 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: we're in prime soap season, so I'm excited right now anyway, Yeah, 196 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: getting all the hand soaps stucking up for the year. 197 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: I have a you know, personal everyday is Halloween soap rule. 198 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: So there are always things that smell like autumnal stuff 199 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: for the most part, with a case of bubblegums and 200 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: roses thrown in. Yeah, I am that person that has 201 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 1: a stockpile of every cent you could possibly wish for. Yeah, 202 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: it's a storage problem. It's not a problem in my heart, 203 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: just a problem of space. Right. There are definitely like 204 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: a number of soaps and lotions and things that smell 205 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: particularly good to me that I especially like using, and 206 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: they make me feel little happier. There have been times 207 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: that I have like been on a vacation and whatever 208 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: product line was being used in the hotel or like 209 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: the spa, if I had a spa is it has 210 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: just made me feel so happy that I've been like, 211 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: I'm buying that and taking it home with me. Yeah 212 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: all the time. Oh yeah, yeah. Currently, I have a 213 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: lotion that I'm using that is came directly. It's a 214 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: vacation lotion that is making my lotioning process happens like 215 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: luxury every single day. Vacation lotion. Oh. We talked about 216 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: William Firthwells and Mildred Weeks Wells inspired by an episode 217 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: of ninety nine percent Invisible that made me real mad. 218 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: I re listened to our maxvon Petinkolf episode, which is 219 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: one of the things that was discussed in that ninety 220 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: nine percent Invisible episode. They were sort of focused on 221 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: how Max von Pettenkofer was one of the last people 222 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: to like really hype up the idea that miasmas were 223 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: spreading disease when the rest of the scientific and medical 224 00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: community was almost entirely at that point the germ theory 225 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: of disease, and how he was wrong about a lot 226 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: of stuff, but he was right about some things, Like 227 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: he was right about indoor ventilation being really important to 228 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: help reduce the spread of indoor diseases. And so it 229 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: was very funny to me when I like listened to 230 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: this episode of ninety nine percent Invisible and got progressively 231 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: more frustrated, And then I re listened to that episode 232 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: and was like, oh, I didn't find this extreme. I 233 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: didn't find this frustrating at all when we recorded it, 234 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: which I think was in early twenty twenty, if I'm 235 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: remembering correctly, because like the following five years had not 236 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: happened yet, right, But I one of the things that 237 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: I have found frustrating over the last five years is 238 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: that the COVID pandemic made it so crystal clear that 239 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: illnesses that spread through the respiratory system can be spread 240 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: very easily in indoor environments with bad ventilation, especially if 241 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: they are crowded. And like, even back in the twenty 242 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: twenty into twenty twenty one time period, I was like, man, 243 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: we just sort of accepted the fact that if you 244 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: go to a con, you're probably gonna come home with koncrud. 245 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: We could have been living in a world where there 246 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: was enough ventilation and enough indoor air sanitation that maybe 247 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: that would not have just been viewed as like the probable, 248 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: inevitable likelihood of going to a convention. And this is 249 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: the same kind of stuff that Mildred and Richard were 250 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: talking about like one hundred years ago. I feel you, 251 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: uh huh. But the way I con that wouldn't have mattered. Yeah, 252 00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: Like I think if you're a person that goes to 253 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: panels and maybe does other stuff, but if you're like 254 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: going somewhere like Dragon Con where it's like huge drink 255 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: ups like people, you know what I mean, Like, I 256 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: don't know that any amount of air fix it can yeah, 257 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: can counter a bunch of drunk people singing in each 258 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: other's faces. It's right. Yeah. So I think some of 259 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,479 Speaker 1: that is situational for sure, and I mean some cons 260 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: probably have a different vibe than that. But I think 261 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: so much of the con experience is about connecting with 262 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: the people you don't get to see all the time, 263 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: and it does tend to devolve into a little bit 264 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 1: of you know, nerdy grab bacchanalia that it may not 265 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: have helped that much. That may or may not make 266 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: you feel any better about it. It still sucks nobody 267 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: was doing it, but yeah, yeah, I feel like we 268 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: have all had to do Dexter's lab style personal lamination 269 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: to actually prevent concer well, and I'm not saying it 270 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: would have possibly eliminated Konkrud entirely, but like reduced it 271 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: fewer illnesses. And then, you know, I also sort of 272 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: thought about their work with measles, which you know was 273 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: then not that long after I think after I don't 274 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: remember the exact timeline, even though we've done an episode 275 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: on measles, Like measles became preventable through a vaccine, but 276 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,959 Speaker 1: at the time that they were doing this work, it 277 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: was not, And so it was seen as inevitable that 278 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: children would get measles at some point during their childhood 279 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: most likely, and if not, they would get measles at 280 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: some point eventually, And so it just sort of was 281 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: accepted as inevitable that kids going to school would get measles, 282 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: and their work seemed promising at least as far as 283 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: slowing down the spread of a measles out So it 284 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: wasn't a sudden intense crisis. Could that have been built 285 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: on to like more stop the spread of measles instead 286 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: of slowing it down, maybe things that are not quite 287 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: as aggressively contagious as measles, because measles is incredibly contagious. 288 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: It's like one of the most contagious illnesses that we 289 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: know about. Could that have dropped way down the amount 290 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: of disease the amount of disease risk. I also have 291 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: frustrations in part because in the last three years or so, 292 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: I think the five ish like respiratory illnesses that I 293 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: have gotten, three were contracted almost certainly at the doctor 294 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: or dentist office. Yeah, and where you know, I was 295 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: not having face to face contact with anyone other than 296 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: the doctor or the dental hyghgien but was in a 297 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: facility where the air had been breathed into by lots 298 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: of other people for a very long time, which is 299 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff that their research seemed the most 300 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: the most likely of like slowing down. Yeah, And then 301 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: I also just have the general question of like, if 302 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: we had been living in a world where there was 303 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: already a focus, like a very strong focus on indoor 304 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: ventilation and indoor air sanitation, if that would have meant 305 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: less transmission of COVID, less need for as many long 306 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: term interventions against COVID, and if that might have meant 307 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: less of a backlash to the idea of public health 308 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: than what we are living through in this moment. Who knows. 309 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: That's all very speculative. Yeah, this is unfortunately Milan Canderra's 310 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: unbearable lightness of being right. You can only have one 311 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: life experience. Sure, you can't know what the other possibilities 312 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: would have been. It is a good point. It's also 313 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: normal to kind of wonder about this stuff and speculating. Oh, 314 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: of course, of course. So yeah, I am also interested 315 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: and glad to know that there was that Mildred weeks 316 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: Wells was like working at the capacity that she was 317 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: working at during the time that she was, even though 318 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: she was paid way less or not paid at all, 319 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: because we don't hear nearly as much about women doing 320 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: that kind of work during that period. For sure, do 321 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: you like me want to know all of the dirt 322 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: on what happened with their marriage? I want so much 323 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: more personal information about each of them. That's why I 324 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: said at the top of the episode that I have 325 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: not read this book Airborne by Carl Zimmer. I did 326 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: get it. I got it the last thing in research, 327 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: like I had already read all of these other papers 328 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: and all of these other articles I had already, like 329 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: I had gotten Williams's entire book, Like I had done 330 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: all of this stuff, And I was like, man, not 331 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: only is not only do I have almost no biographical 332 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: information about either of them, some of the information that 333 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: I do have I am confused by. Like I was, 334 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: for example, very confused by what was going on with 335 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,719 Speaker 1: Mildred's father's embezzlement thing, right, and I was having a 336 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: really hard time finding any reporting about it. So I 337 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: finally got this book to like just sort of try 338 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: to confirm details about the two of them, which is 339 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: one portion of that book. The biggest thing that helped 340 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: me there was learning that her father's the reporting around 341 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: her father's accusations and trial and all of that had 342 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: been reported with his first and middle initial and not 343 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: his whole first name, which that finally led me to 344 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: newspaper articles that I could read about it, whereas before 345 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: that I was finding basically nothing. And I was like, 346 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: what is this financial mismanagement thing in Texas that I 347 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: can't seem to find anything about? It seems to be 348 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: a big secret. It seems yeah, and like all of 349 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: the brief write ups of her grandfather are almost glowing 350 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: and how they talk about him, And I was like, 351 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: but it seems like there was an an embezzlement thing, 352 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: like what having a really hard time. So yeah, the 353 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: fact that so much of that is just like a 354 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: total mystery. I wish we knew more, And I definitely 355 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: wish we knew more about some of the more gossipy stuff, 356 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: like what specifically happened in their marriage. Was it really 357 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: that the two of them were just difficult to work 358 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: with that led to their losing their jobs? Like yeah, 359 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: I also, you know, it seems like you did this research, 360 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: so you might have insight that I wouldn't. But as 361 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: we get to the end of their story where they 362 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: just kind of like are working on their own things, 363 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: and like, is this one of those instances where they 364 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: were living at a time where it was a little 365 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: more stigmatized to get divorced, and so they essentially were 366 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: separated in behavior but maybe not in declaration. Yeah, they 367 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: were still legally married until the end of their lives 368 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: as far as I know, But just Mildred didn't seem 369 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: to be living a life together at all, No, Mildred 370 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: did move to another city with Bud, and even then 371 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: it still seems like he was spending some of his 372 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: time with them, but not like living with them full time. 373 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: I'm imagining to maintain a relationship with his son in 374 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: some way could be a reason for that. But yeah, 375 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: it seems like for all practical purposes, they were not married, 376 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: even though they were legally still married, and they were 377 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: definitely not really research partners anymore in the last few 378 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,479 Speaker 1: years of their career, after approximately nineteen forty four. And 379 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: then I think about married couples who work together, oh yeah, 380 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: and how often that creates really toxic situations, And I'm like, yeah, 381 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: I could maybe see where people wouldn't want to hear on. 382 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 1: You know, I used to work for a married couple 383 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: and it was a nightmare because I realized that they 384 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: were argue through their employees, right, and like, just it 385 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: just created havoc and it was sucked. And I know 386 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: people do it. Yeah, well, in so many companies today 387 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: have rules about like if married couples are both employed here, 388 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: they cannot work in the same department, they cannot write 389 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: like they especially one of them, cannot supervise the other one. Yeah, 390 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: And then in academia, there's this whole idea of like 391 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: the quote trailing spouse, where like one spouse is the 392 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: spouse that the college or university wants to hire, but 393 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: they are married and they can only afford to move 394 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: if the spouse can also find work, and like that's 395 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: a whole thing. Yeah, But the two of them were 396 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: like they were in a situation where where they were 397 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: both working in the same department. I don't think he 398 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: was technically her supervisor, but like, yeah, they were working 399 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: together on all of these things together, and he was 400 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: paid more than she was, if she was paid at all. Yeah, 401 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: And that does seem just like a dynamic that would 402 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: be difficult to deal with. I feel compelled to say 403 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: I have worked with other married couples that were amazing, sure, 404 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: and did not have toxic garbage. In fact, one married 405 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: couple that I started working at this company, and I 406 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: didn't know they were married for a long time because 407 00:26:54,480 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: they were so hyper professional about like not in any 408 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: way being in each other's business at work. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 409 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: oh oh, I wonder all of the secret I do too, meanderings. 410 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: I also wonder about their son, because like everything that 411 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: was written about him was was pretty general, and also 412 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: some of the ways that people described him contradicted each other. 413 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: Like there was one paper, the paper that was sort 414 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: of about the tuberculosis experiments that was written after his 415 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: death use the word that we do not use today 416 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: to describe him as intellectually disabled. But there was also 417 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: a doctor who examined him when he was being institutionalized 418 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: that was like, I don't think he has an intellectual 419 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: disability based on his vocabulary and like what we can 420 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: tell about his cognition, and his assessment was that it 421 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: was a mental illness that involves psychosis and was possibly schizophrenia, 422 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: incredibly different from how another account had described him. So 423 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: I don't really know. I think that's a good example 424 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: of why it is important that there has been and 425 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: it's changing now, and I hope it continues to like 426 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: that thing where people are reticent when it comes to 427 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: speaking about any such things, and as a consequence, there 428 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: is a big gap in understanding. Yeah, so people's situations 429 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: get described incorrectly all the time, right, And I think 430 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: it's getting better, but that is a problem, right, Yeah, 431 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: I understand for some people it is uncomfortable or they 432 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: don't want to discuss such things, or they're worried they 433 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: will say the wrong thing, right, But yeah, it's a 434 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: it's tricky, and yeah, we need more information, not less correct, 435 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: not necessarily about any given person, but about the possible 436 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: various things that a person can can be and have 437 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: and do. Yeah. I agree. Anyway, that's my nerdy hippie 438 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: moment today. I love nerdy hippie moments. See whatever's happening 439 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: on your weekends. I hope it is as as lovely 440 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: as it possibly can be. We will be back with 441 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: a Saturday classic tomorrow. We will have something brand new 442 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a 443 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 444 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 445 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: favorite shows.