WEBVTT - Bebe Buell

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsnet's podcast. My

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<v Speaker 1>guest today is the one and only bb Bule. He'd

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<v Speaker 1>be good to have you on the podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, I'm honored to be here. Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, explain the derivation of your name, Bibi.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I was born on Bastiel Day. My father was

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<v Speaker 2>in Korea and my mother didn't want to give me

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<v Speaker 2>a name until he got back. I didn't meet him

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<v Speaker 2>till I was three weeks old, and the nurses called

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<v Speaker 2>me Bebe because it meant baby in French, and because

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<v Speaker 2>I was born on Bastiele Day, they thought it was

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<v Speaker 2>all very French, so I sort of stuck. And then

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<v Speaker 2>my mother wanted to name me Courtney, and my father liked.

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<v Speaker 2>My mother didn't like the spelling, so she made it

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<v Speaker 2>just Beverly with an E. And my middle name is Lawrence,

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<v Speaker 2>which is after my grandmother, who is Florence. But my

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<v Speaker 2>mother didn't like the name Florence, so she dropped the F,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm Lawrence is my middle name. And then Buell.

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<v Speaker 2>This is my father's name.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, this is your stepfather, your birth father.

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<v Speaker 2>My birth father, But you say it.

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<v Speaker 1>You say in your book that you never really knew

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<v Speaker 1>your father.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I didn't. And it's funny because I never felt

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<v Speaker 2>that I didn't know him. I just felt like he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't want to be part of my life. Is basically

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<v Speaker 2>the way I saw it as a child, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I think I was always looking for ways to want

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<v Speaker 2>to be part of his life, but it just didn't

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<v Speaker 2>work out that way.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So subsequent to your birth, did he and your

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<v Speaker 1>mother ever live together?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? They did. They divorced when I was two years old.

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<v Speaker 1>So how much contact did you actually have with him?

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<v Speaker 2>Not much at all. And the last time I saw

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<v Speaker 2>him was on my fifth birthday, and it was a

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting thing because they my parents had an argument

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<v Speaker 2>of some kind and as my father was leaving, this

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<v Speaker 2>dish hit the wall. My mother had thrown something at him,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just remember running to the elevator and he

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<v Speaker 2>got on the elevator and he was dressed, very dashing,

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<v Speaker 2>and I tried to pull the elevator doors open with

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<v Speaker 2>my little five year old hands. I didn't want him

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<v Speaker 2>to leave, and I never saw him again until I

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<v Speaker 2>was about seven or eight months pregnant with live.

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<v Speaker 1>And what were the circumstances there. Why did you suddenly

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<v Speaker 1>see him?

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<v Speaker 2>Because Todd felt that Todd was pretty certain we were

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<v Speaker 2>going to have a boy, and I was pretty certain

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<v Speaker 2>that I was pregnant with a female energy. I sort

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<v Speaker 2>of knew that and I felt it. But he sort

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<v Speaker 2>of felt that I had a lot of unfinished stuff

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<v Speaker 2>with my dad, and he felt that it would be

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<v Speaker 2>very healthy for me to see my father again before

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<v Speaker 2>I had a child, even though I was all of

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<v Speaker 2>twenty three years old, and so Todd had a show

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<v Speaker 2>in Tallahassee, where my father was living, and I went

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<v Speaker 2>to that show, uber pregnant, saw my father again for

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<v Speaker 2>the first time since I was five, and it was interesting,

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<v Speaker 2>to say the least. I didn't feel unattached to him,

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<v Speaker 2>and I felt very much like his daughter. We both

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<v Speaker 2>had the steel blue eyes, and he's tall, and I

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<v Speaker 2>saw myself, but I didn't really bond with him. And

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<v Speaker 2>then I didn't see him again until two thousand and eight.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was there's a lot of years. My

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<v Speaker 2>daughters met him once.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, why did you meet him again in two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and eight.

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<v Speaker 2>Because I believe it or not, he called me after

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<v Speaker 2>his wife, Mollie the woman that he married. After he

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<v Speaker 2>and my mom divorced, he called me and he said

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<v Speaker 2>that he wanted to see me, and that he said

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<v Speaker 2>that Mollie's wish was that we would see each other again.

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<v Speaker 2>And did you I certainly did. Absolutely. I went right

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<v Speaker 2>to him, and I'm really glad that I did. I

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<v Speaker 2>got to know him for the last five years of

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<v Speaker 2>his life. He was almost ninety five when he died,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was an incredibly great man. I there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot about him that I don't identify with, but there's

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<v Speaker 2>a a lot about him that I do identify with.

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<v Speaker 2>And he was a heroic pilot. You can read about

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<v Speaker 2>my father. He wrote a book called Dauntless Hell Divers

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<v Speaker 2>about being a hell diver pilot in World War Two.

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<v Speaker 2>He did unbelievable things. And the only pictures I ever

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<v Speaker 2>saw of him, he was all dressed up in his regalia.

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<v Speaker 2>And people wonder why I'm drawn to people that are

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<v Speaker 2>sort of regal in their stance or spiffy in their dress,

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<v Speaker 2>you know.

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<v Speaker 1>So when you connected with him, yeah, you know, like

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<v Speaker 1>people you read all about these people, they share genes,

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<v Speaker 1>but they never knew each other, but they get together

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<v Speaker 1>and they see similarities. Did you see similarities?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, it was incredible, It was incredible. We

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<v Speaker 2>have the same laugh and he even has a little

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<v Speaker 2>lisp like I do. But mine I tried to control

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<v Speaker 2>most my life. But his height, his he had very

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<v Speaker 2>long legs and he was lanky, and yeah, and I

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<v Speaker 2>just I felt like I was meeting somebody that I

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<v Speaker 2>should know better. But what do you do about that?

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<v Speaker 2>You really can't change what your destiny is. It was

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<v Speaker 2>my destiny to have this kind of dynamic. I was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, obviously there's a lesson for me in this life,

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<v Speaker 2>and it has a lot to do with men and

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<v Speaker 2>father and the importance of acceptance and and wanting to

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<v Speaker 2>be loved.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, just before we get there, do you have any

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<v Speaker 1>step siblings?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I sort of have a step sibling when my

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<v Speaker 2>father remarried Mollie, who I adored by the way she

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<v Speaker 2>was like him. They were free thinkers, very artistic. My

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<v Speaker 2>father wrote, he wrote two books, and she was an

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<v Speaker 2>artist and she could draw, and they were very bohemian.

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<v Speaker 2>They had their martinis at six and you know the

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<v Speaker 2>whole bit.

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<v Speaker 1>And until Molly came with a child, Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>She came with two. She came with Cheryl and a

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<v Speaker 2>son who had of all names Happy. His name was

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<v Speaker 2>Happy and they called him Hap And I just remember thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, names come in all sizes, like mine was

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<v Speaker 2>an unusual name. Growing up, people thought Bibie was a

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<v Speaker 2>weird name. I never went by Beverly, so yes, she

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<v Speaker 2>came so I happy. I never really got to know Cheryl,

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<v Speaker 2>only a little bit.

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<v Speaker 1>But okay, let's talk about your relationship with men, because

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<v Speaker 1>on some level you're famous because of your relationships with

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<v Speaker 1>all this high sight. Tell me more about how you

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<v Speaker 1>feel relative to men, not particular individual, but one sex

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<v Speaker 1>via the other.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think as I've gotten older and I've experienced

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<v Speaker 2>healthy relationships, you know, I've been married to my husband.

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<v Speaker 2>We're getting ready to have our twenty first wedding anniversary

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<v Speaker 2>and we've been together for twenty four years. Once I

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<v Speaker 2>actually experienced commitment and healthy exchanges and where things didn't

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<v Speaker 2>all just revolve around the other person. I was very

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<v Speaker 2>much a product of the sixties and the seventies because

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<v Speaker 2>as much as women were burning their bras and people

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<v Speaker 2>were burning their draft cards, there was still a suppression.

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<v Speaker 2>There was still a stigma that went with burning that

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<v Speaker 2>bra or having more than one boyfriend, or having a

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<v Speaker 2>child out of wedlock that was still not one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>percent accepted as it is today. And the choices I

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<v Speaker 2>made when I was young, I think were based on

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<v Speaker 2>parental some kind of parental baggage I was carrying from

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<v Speaker 2>my childhood. I'm really not sure, because I didn't really

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<v Speaker 2>ponder it. I wasn't a self destructive person, and I

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't an angry person. I was just a person that

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<v Speaker 2>was sort of like swirling around like Alice in Wonderland,

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<v Speaker 2>jumping from mushroom to mushroom. It like sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>Forrest Gump, but with a higher IQ. I just sort

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<v Speaker 2>of fell into situations that I think I was obviously

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<v Speaker 2>meant to experience. And whatever notoriety or recognition I got

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<v Speaker 2>from relationships, I also got a lot on my own

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<v Speaker 2>and my input in those relationships, if that means much.

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't Sharon Osborne, and I wasn't, you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>Mamager type person. But I was a very artistic young girl,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think I craved that around me. It was

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<v Speaker 2>sort of my fuel, as well as the men that

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<v Speaker 2>I enjoyed being around.

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<v Speaker 1>What kind of kid were you like growing up. Were

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<v Speaker 1>you the life of the party, Were you the lone artist?

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<v Speaker 1>Were you a good student? Bad student? Friends not friends?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I was dyslexic and ad HD and all the

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<v Speaker 2>other things that come with a lot of creative energy.

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<v Speaker 2>But I had a really, really loving mother that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of understood that I was. Same with me. With my

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<v Speaker 2>daughter live, I knew she was. She was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a little special as well. And my mother allowed all

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<v Speaker 2>the art. She never told me to turn my music down.

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<v Speaker 2>When she saw that I was interested in drawing, she

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<v Speaker 2>bought me an easel, and she never tried to stifle

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<v Speaker 2>my love of any kind of craft. I was always

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<v Speaker 2>very infatuated with art period. I just would sit for

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<v Speaker 2>hours and look at art books. And that's how I

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<v Speaker 2>fell in love with Oscar Wilde and just through books,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just through looking at lots of pictures and

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<v Speaker 2>deciding what I identified with.

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<v Speaker 1>And okay, so were you into music before the Beatles?

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<v Speaker 1>Were the Beatles really a transcendent moment for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the physicality of the Beatles absolutely. Seeing him on

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<v Speaker 2>the Ed Sullivan Show was a mind blowing experience. I

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<v Speaker 2>feel bad for anybody that didn't get to experience is that.

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<v Speaker 2>It was really incredible. It was probably one of the

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<v Speaker 2>greatest moments of my life. That and the Rolling Stones.

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<v Speaker 2>But before that, yes, my mother had She liked Patsy Kleine,

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<v Speaker 2>and she liked Frank Sinatra, and and she liked Hank Williams,

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<v Speaker 2>and she really loved Eddie Arnold, and so we had

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<v Speaker 2>There was music in the house a lot. And my

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<v Speaker 2>mother liked the radio. So when we were in the car,

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<v Speaker 2>when we had cars with radios, she would let me

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<v Speaker 2>listen to whatever station I wanted. And I enjoyed listening

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<v Speaker 2>to a little bit of everything. I sort of had

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<v Speaker 2>a Shmorgas board. I loved the Everly Brothers and that

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<v Speaker 2>you know that and that song by Roy Orbison crying

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<v Speaker 2>that just crat you know. I would just go around

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<v Speaker 2>the house like a maniac singing that song. And I

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<v Speaker 2>was very affected by Gypsy rose Lee. Let me entertain,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. I would get in the shower and sing

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<v Speaker 2>at the top of my lungs. And so what kind

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<v Speaker 2>of child was I? I was sort of an entertainer

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<v Speaker 2>from a very young age, but I didn't there was

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<v Speaker 2>something missing. I think that's because of the situation with

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<v Speaker 2>my dad. I never felt like I was enough. I

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<v Speaker 2>never felt as pretty as the other girls or but

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<v Speaker 2>of course it was not like that. It's just it's

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<v Speaker 2>how I felt. So And did I get good grades, No,

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<v Speaker 2>because I had attention deficit. But there was one subject

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<v Speaker 2>I was good in, and that was English literature. So

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<v Speaker 2>any story telling, anything I could read about the Renaissance period,

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<v Speaker 2>or anything that attracted me in that arena, Greek mythology, romany, astrology, metaphysics,

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<v Speaker 2>Madame Blovowski, you know, things like that. It really resonated

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<v Speaker 2>with me. So my mother kind of knew that I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have that headspace for wanting to go and go

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<v Speaker 2>to college, that I was going to sort of learn.

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to get my education the old fashioned way,

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<v Speaker 2>kick them in the deep end and see if they swim.

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<v Speaker 2>And she sent my high school graduation picture to the

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<v Speaker 2>biggest agent in the world. My mother always fought big

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<v Speaker 2>and she still does, and I never thought I would

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<v Speaker 2>get a response, But within three days we were on

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<v Speaker 2>an airplane to New York City because Eileen Ford had

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<v Speaker 2>summoned me and that was it.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go do a little backfill here. So you

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<v Speaker 1>were ten when the Beatles came out that was a

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<v Speaker 1>big thing. Music was everything, and then you were entering

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<v Speaker 1>ju You're high. Were you a popular girl, did you

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<v Speaker 1>go on dates? Did you suddenly go wild or were

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<v Speaker 1>you more separate? What were you like?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? I was in Catholic boarding school for sixth, seventh,

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<v Speaker 2>and eighth grade. I went to Villa Maria Academy, which

0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.240
<v Speaker 2>was a I came home for holidays in summer. And

0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:25.400
<v Speaker 2>then in ninth grade, my stepfather got stationed in Newport,

0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:32.640
<v Speaker 2>Rhode Island, so I went to Saint Catherine's Academy and

0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:37.360
<v Speaker 2>on Bellevue Avenue. And it was when I was in

0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:41.240
<v Speaker 2>ninth grade at a school dance that I met Paul

0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:45.560
<v Speaker 2>Calcil from the group the Colcils. But at the time

0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.480
<v Speaker 2>he was not in the band. He was the one

0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 2>brother besides his other brother Richard, that weren't in the

0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.800
<v Speaker 2>band because the dad just decided they weren't in the band. So,

0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Paul was kind of a jock, you know.

0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.400
<v Speaker 2>He hung out with my friend Charlie and they liked basketball.

0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:06.800
<v Speaker 2>So that was my first big fourteen going on fifteen,

0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.800
<v Speaker 2>when I met Paul, and I remember my first slow

0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.040
<v Speaker 2>dance with him. It was the last dance of the

0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Night and Paul Castle comes to me and he asked

0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:17.880
<v Speaker 2>me if I wanted to dance, and of course I

0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.440
<v Speaker 2>said yes. He was so handsome. They were the most

0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:24.800
<v Speaker 2>beautiful children. They were just all gorgeous. And so he

0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:29.280
<v Speaker 2>was about seventeen at the time, and his family was

0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:33.000
<v Speaker 2>becoming huge. The band was getting big, big, big big.

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.240
<v Speaker 2>But see I didn't know any of this at the

0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.960
<v Speaker 2>time because I was a rock I listened to rock music.

0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:44.880
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't really familiar with the Cowciles until hair and

0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:48.520
<v Speaker 2>then I really knew who they were. And of course

0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.240
<v Speaker 2>the rained to park and other things, so that sort

0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:55.800
<v Speaker 2>of started the dynamic of my first kiss. My first

0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.840
<v Speaker 2>crush was somebody that went off to the circus. Suddenly

0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 2>Paul's dad decided he was going to be in the band,

0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.120
<v Speaker 2>so Paul was in the Castiles. He was the keyboard players.

0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.639
<v Speaker 2>So no more school dances. Oh. The slow song was

0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:16.439
<v Speaker 2>blue Velvet, my first Blue Velve. You know, it's incredible.

0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:21.800
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, so of course we had to sneak off

0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.080
<v Speaker 2>to kiss each other in the backseat of a car.

0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:28.720
<v Speaker 2>It was all very innocent. There was nothing advanced. There

0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.560
<v Speaker 2>was no third base or fourth base, back then, it

0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:35.159
<v Speaker 2>was first base and second base, at least in my world.

0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure other worlds were different, but in my world,

0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.320
<v Speaker 2>and Paul always had the fear of his father looming

0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:47.160
<v Speaker 2>over him. He had this incredibly strict father. He wasn't

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.720
<v Speaker 2>allowed to date, he wasn't allowed to go in cars,

0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:51.399
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't allowed to do any of that stuff. He

0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.760
<v Speaker 2>might as well have been Mormon. I mean, it was crazy,

0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.240
<v Speaker 2>but anyway, they moved to California, and I finished my

0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.199
<v Speaker 2>soft more year in new Portwood Island, and then my

0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.160
<v Speaker 2>family got transferred to Campla June, North Carolina, and that's

0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.119
<v Speaker 2>where I did my junior and my senior year. So

0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.960
<v Speaker 2>finally I was going to normal, a normal public school.

0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:16.400
<v Speaker 2>I went to campblu June High School. I graduated from there,

0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:22.479
<v Speaker 2>and was I popular. I was always described I'm going

0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:27.160
<v Speaker 2>to go buy my yearbook as an individualist and artistic,

0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:33.879
<v Speaker 2>artistic girl was the so I guess, I guess it.

0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:38.840
<v Speaker 2>Just it followed me. Was I effervescent, the entertainer, and

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 2>me had not come out yet as far as being

0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:45.360
<v Speaker 2>able to stand in front of people and actually own it,

0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.479
<v Speaker 2>you know, that had not happened yet. I was still,

0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to use the word shy. I just

0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:58.480
<v Speaker 2>didn't know yet how to present myself as a confident

0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:04.919
<v Speaker 2>human that hadn't really hadn't really eluded me yet. So

0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:09.640
<v Speaker 2>I always had a sense of wonderment. But was I popular?

0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:13.159
<v Speaker 2>I guess was some kids, the cool kids, kids that

0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:17.280
<v Speaker 2>liked rock and roll, kids that knew who Blue Cheer were,

0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, I I.

0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.679
<v Speaker 1>Oh, okay, So you talk about those bands, yeah, you

0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:25.879
<v Speaker 1>know in your book, and that, you know, was the

0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.200
<v Speaker 1>reason we're doing this podcast, Rebel Soul. You talk about

0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.160
<v Speaker 1>seeing the Rolling Stones on one of their first tours.

0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.560
<v Speaker 1>So to what degree were you owning records? To what

0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:38.800
<v Speaker 1>degree were you going to concerts when you were in

0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:39.399
<v Speaker 1>high school?

0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:42.920
<v Speaker 2>In high school, Oh, well, I didn't go to a

0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:48.200
<v Speaker 2>whole lot of concerts, that's for sure, And it wasn't

0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:50.480
<v Speaker 2>until I was a senior. But I did see the

0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.080
<v Speaker 2>Rolling Stones. But I was only twelve when that happened.

0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:58.280
<v Speaker 2>That was July fourth, nineteen sixty six, at the Virginia

0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Beach Dome B Shepherd Convention Center. My best friend since

0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:08.359
<v Speaker 2>fifth grade, Joni Gross, and I went and it changed

0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:11.800
<v Speaker 2>my life. You know. I was the kid that got

0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.800
<v Speaker 2>into the newspaper for walking up to the stage with

0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.880
<v Speaker 2>my instematic camera to take some pictures, and I got

0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:25.879
<v Speaker 2>pushed by the stage was lined with cops. And that

0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.600
<v Speaker 2>was my first taste at twelve going on thirteen. In

0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.399
<v Speaker 2>ten days I would turn thirteen. What a baptism of

0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Keith Richards actually coming to the edge of the stage

0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:39.600
<v Speaker 2>and telling the cop to leave me alone. He sort

0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:43.320
<v Speaker 2>of took his foot and nudged him. He didn't do

0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.120
<v Speaker 2>a full on Keith, but he did a little nudge,

0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.320
<v Speaker 2>not a kick, but a nudge, you know, to let

0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:51.880
<v Speaker 2>the police officer know that I could take my picture.

0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.879
<v Speaker 2>And boy did I never forget that, you know. So

0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.800
<v Speaker 2>I was the kid that after I started clicking, I

0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:02.080
<v Speaker 2>got a picture of Brian Jones playing Harmonica in his

0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:06.720
<v Speaker 2>print pinstripe suit. Once I did that, the rest of

0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:08.720
<v Speaker 2>the kids were able to push up a little bit

0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:13.439
<v Speaker 2>more and it became a lot more fun. But so

0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:20.160
<v Speaker 2>at that moment, I felt very connected to the spirit

0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.960
<v Speaker 2>of what I was indulging. I felt very confident when

0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.720
<v Speaker 2>I went up there to take my picture, and I

0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:31.520
<v Speaker 2>wasn't going to let anybody stop me. And so after that,

0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:33.520
<v Speaker 2>I think I went to a couple of those kind

0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.040
<v Speaker 2>of gigs where they would have multiple people on the gig,

0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, like Hermit's Hermit's and Sonny and Cher and

0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Gary and the Pacemakers or something like that, and everybody

0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:49.080
<v Speaker 2>would play like ten or fifteen minutes. And I know

0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.160
<v Speaker 2>that Jamie Hendricks opened for the Monkeys when I lived

0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:57.320
<v Speaker 2>in Newport and which was a strange tour for Hendrix

0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:59.080
<v Speaker 2>to be on, But I didn't go to that. But

0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:01.879
<v Speaker 2>in high school, I mean I would always go to

0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.560
<v Speaker 2>the school dances and you know, we would always go

0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.200
<v Speaker 2>to the canteen and we would always dance and all

0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.080
<v Speaker 2>the you know, local bands and stuff. So when I

0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.280
<v Speaker 2>was a senior in high school, that's when I met

0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.280
<v Speaker 2>my first became friends with a local band that was

0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:20.800
<v Speaker 2>big enough to open for Johnny Winter. So so my big,

0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:24.200
<v Speaker 2>my first big concert where I got to be backstage

0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:29.280
<v Speaker 2>and and s see a band like Johnny Winter, and

0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:34.200
<v Speaker 2>which was so amazing when Rick Darringer was in the band,

0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:39.679
<v Speaker 2>and I'm talking about the lineup after Zanga, after Rick's

0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:43.320
<v Speaker 2>brother Randy had left, when it was just the trio,

0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:48.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, and you know, you know, I got

0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.160
<v Speaker 2>it just it was a chain reaction. It just sort

0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:54.479
<v Speaker 2>of started after that, but most of the concerts I

0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.480
<v Speaker 2>went to that all started. I think I saw the

0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:02.520
<v Speaker 2>James Gang when I was in and they were great.

0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.200
<v Speaker 2>It's funny that Ted Nugent the and boy Duke's played

0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:09.399
<v Speaker 2>with the James Gang, and I never liked Isn't it funny?

0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:14.480
<v Speaker 2>Never liked Ted NuGen There was just something about that

0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:17.760
<v Speaker 2>guy that creeped me out from the very beginning. I

0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:21.119
<v Speaker 2>don't know if it was my Catholic schoolgirl radar or

0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:25.199
<v Speaker 2>what it was, but he just creeped me out. I

0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:28.639
<v Speaker 2>remember telling Dale Peters from the James Gang, he was

0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:33.159
<v Speaker 2>the bass player, that that guy, that guy is so weird.

0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:35.600
<v Speaker 2>You know. I was young, so I didn't know what

0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:37.760
<v Speaker 2>other names to call him. I didn't know it was

0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:40.000
<v Speaker 2>going to be like, you know, all the things I

0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:44.720
<v Speaker 2>could say. But it's interesting I had even a little

0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.520
<v Speaker 2>bit of a radar even then. I was blessed with

0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:53.679
<v Speaker 2>some kind of protective thing. God only knows how I

0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:56.600
<v Speaker 2>made it out alive some of the situations I got

0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:04.720
<v Speaker 2>myself into in life, and I just feel, whatever it is,

0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:05.800
<v Speaker 2>you roll with it.

0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back. Your mother writes a letter to

0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:20.600
<v Speaker 1>Eileen Ford, Did you want to be a model or

0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:22.439
<v Speaker 1>did your mother want you to be a model?

0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:25.520
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to get to New York City. I wanted

0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:28.480
<v Speaker 2>to meet Andy Warhol. I wanted to look at I

0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:31.119
<v Speaker 2>wanted to meet the people I saw in Vogue magazine.

0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:36.080
<v Speaker 2>And I wanted to be around that was my tribe.

0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:41.199
<v Speaker 2>To me, that was my sole tribe. And I wanted

0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:45.880
<v Speaker 2>to be where they where that was. And I always

0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:48.440
<v Speaker 2>told my friends this too. I'm still my best friend

0:24:48.480 --> 0:24:53.760
<v Speaker 2>from high school, Tim Sullivan, he lives in the Chelsea Hotel.

0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:55.960
<v Speaker 2>He's one of the people that's been there for thirty years,

0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:57.879
<v Speaker 2>so they couldn't get him to leave even when they

0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:01.359
<v Speaker 2>rent oed. But he I wasn't surprised at all with

0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:04.080
<v Speaker 2>the way my life went because I told him that,

0:25:04.840 --> 0:25:06.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, I was going to get to New York.

0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:08.399
<v Speaker 2>I thought I was going to be a singer. I

0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:11.360
<v Speaker 2>thought I was going to be like Nico or something.

0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:15.199
<v Speaker 2>I thought I was going to or Marianne Faithful. I

0:25:15.320 --> 0:25:18.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of wanted to be a chantoose. But I was

0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:23.680
<v Speaker 2>a little too rocking. There was like that my body language,

0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:28.959
<v Speaker 2>my aura, everything about me was not as delicate, you know.

0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I just I guess the term rock chick. I guess

0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:39.520
<v Speaker 2>it's just in my pedigree and my DNA or whatever

0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:44.960
<v Speaker 2>it is. But I just wanted to get to New York.

0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:48.240
<v Speaker 2>And I'll be honest, I didn't even know what would

0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:52.760
<v Speaker 2>happen when my mom sent those pictures and when Eileen's responded,

0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:55.720
<v Speaker 2>my mother tried to explain to me, look, if you're

0:25:55.760 --> 0:25:58.080
<v Speaker 2>not going to go to college, you really have to

0:25:58.080 --> 0:26:03.439
<v Speaker 2>have a good job to work. And I thought, Okay,

0:26:03.960 --> 0:26:08.000
<v Speaker 2>I get it. Maybe this will be fun. And you know,

0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:12.080
<v Speaker 2>I loved fashion magazines and I loved all the great supermodels,

0:26:12.119 --> 0:26:16.720
<v Speaker 2>and I loved Twiggy and Jean Shrimpton and Patty Boyd

0:26:16.880 --> 0:26:19.560
<v Speaker 2>and Jane Asher and it was all on my radar.

0:26:20.520 --> 0:26:23.520
<v Speaker 2>So I wanted to be more like that, like Jane Barkin.

0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:29.159
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to be more so. Of course, Eileen she

0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:33.000
<v Speaker 2>signed me immediately. I was signed him for it in

0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:39.119
<v Speaker 2>ten minutes. It happened very fast, and they put me

0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:43.040
<v Speaker 2>in Saint Mary's Woman's Residence. I was very used to

0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:47.240
<v Speaker 2>being around nuns, but I wasn't able to keep my curfew.

0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:50.760
<v Speaker 2>You had to be in by midnight when you were

0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:56.720
<v Speaker 2>in Saint Mary's and I was starting to meet friends,

0:26:56.800 --> 0:26:59.080
<v Speaker 2>and we used to go dancing at this place called

0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:04.320
<v Speaker 2>hip hopon him. And then when I met Todd, I

0:27:04.400 --> 0:27:06.920
<v Speaker 2>met Todd, and then the whole.

0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:11.240
<v Speaker 1>A little bit slower when you went to New York.

0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:14.399
<v Speaker 1>When you went to New York, you were going to

0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:17.520
<v Speaker 1>the mecca. Were you convinced you were going to meet

0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:21.200
<v Speaker 1>all these people? Were you driven? Did you say I'm

0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:24.960
<v Speaker 1>gonna make it? Or were you just blindly bumping into things?

0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:29.640
<v Speaker 2>It was blind? I you know, I try to take

0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:33.840
<v Speaker 2>more credit for this fabulous life that I've been given,

0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:40.800
<v Speaker 2>but actually I can't because all I did was manifest

0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:47.399
<v Speaker 2>whatever my dreams were, and I would just do what

0:27:47.480 --> 0:27:51.920
<v Speaker 2>I was taught. Be kind to people, be respectful, have

0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:58.359
<v Speaker 2>good manners, and be honest and be direct. And so

0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:04.240
<v Speaker 2>I just sort of I allowed whatever that inner voice

0:28:04.280 --> 0:28:06.520
<v Speaker 2>is to sort of take me left or right.

0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:11.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, But there were other models staying at Saint Mary's.

0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:14.399
<v Speaker 1>How did you meet people? And you go out dancing.

0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:17.199
<v Speaker 1>You're a single attractive model in New York. You know

0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:19.199
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people are going to be interested in

0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:20.000
<v Speaker 1>talking to you.

0:28:20.720 --> 0:28:23.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, I met, I mean I met I remember I

0:28:23.320 --> 0:28:27.040
<v Speaker 2>met the DJ Frankie Crucker, because he would go and dance,

0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:29.760
<v Speaker 2>and he loved to dance with all the pretty girls

0:28:29.880 --> 0:28:32.120
<v Speaker 2>and he would. But you know, that was back when

0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:35.440
<v Speaker 2>it was not so much about picking up. You would

0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:38.080
<v Speaker 2>go to these dance clubs to actually dance. It was

0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:40.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of interesting. It wasn't like I mean, I'm sure

0:28:40.960 --> 0:28:43.400
<v Speaker 2>some people picked each other up, but I never gave

0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:46.160
<v Speaker 2>off that. I was never hunting, you know, I was

0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:48.800
<v Speaker 2>never looking for boyfriends. As a matter of fact, I

0:28:48.840 --> 0:28:51.360
<v Speaker 2>didn't have any boyfriends until I met Todd. He was

0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:52.240
<v Speaker 2>my first boyfriend.

0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:55.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, but were you sexually experienced when you met Todd?

0:28:56.720 --> 0:29:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Not as much as some seventeen eight ten year old girls. Yeah,

0:29:01.720 --> 0:29:03.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean I kind of was.

0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:05.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, how'd you meet Todd?

0:29:06.520 --> 0:29:10.080
<v Speaker 2>Well? That was that was what changed my life. I

0:29:10.160 --> 0:29:14.200
<v Speaker 2>was hanging out with this guy that Aileen Ford approved

0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:17.560
<v Speaker 2>of because she thought he was gay, but he wasn't.

0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:20.880
<v Speaker 2>And he started actually dating one of the biggest models

0:29:20.920 --> 0:29:24.400
<v Speaker 2>in New York and right under Eileen's nose, but she

0:29:24.600 --> 0:29:27.200
<v Speaker 2>let all the girls go out dancing with him. His

0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:33.520
<v Speaker 2>name was Richard, and he was really nice and he

0:29:33.520 --> 0:29:35.480
<v Speaker 2>he asked me what I wanted to do, and I said,

0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:37.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, Let's go see man. I had gone to

0:29:37.480 --> 0:29:40.240
<v Speaker 2>see Man of La Mancha with my mother when I

0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:43.200
<v Speaker 2>was a little girl in New York, and I wanted

0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:45.720
<v Speaker 2>to go relive that moment, so I said, let's go

0:29:45.760 --> 0:29:49.000
<v Speaker 2>see Man of La Mancha. So he took me to

0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:52.360
<v Speaker 2>see Man of La Mancha. But on the way, Richard

0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:55.120
<v Speaker 2>says to me, we have to make a stop on

0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:59.440
<v Speaker 2>East thirteenth Street. I have to drop these tapes off

0:29:59.560 --> 0:30:02.560
<v Speaker 2>to Todd Runggren. And he said, do you know who

0:30:02.560 --> 0:30:06.200
<v Speaker 2>that is? And I was like, no, who's that? And

0:30:06.240 --> 0:30:09.160
<v Speaker 2>he said, have you ever heard the song Hello? It's me?

0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:14.000
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, uh, yeah, yeah, And he goes

0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:17.840
<v Speaker 2>that guy he's going, he's gone solo. And he started

0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:21.680
<v Speaker 2>to tell me about this famous manager named Albert Grossman

0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:24.560
<v Speaker 2>was managing him and he's going to be a big star,

0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:28.120
<v Speaker 2>and that he had these tapes that he had done

0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:31.480
<v Speaker 2>over at this place called Secret Sound with Moogie Klingman

0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:34.520
<v Speaker 2>or something, and that he needed to drop them off

0:30:34.560 --> 0:30:37.720
<v Speaker 2>to Todd. So we pull up in front of two

0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:41.360
<v Speaker 2>oh six East thirteenth Street, the same block that that

0:30:41.600 --> 0:30:45.040
<v Speaker 2>scene in Taxi Driver where Jody leans up against the

0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:50.200
<v Speaker 2>building when she's out to get a hooker or two

0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:55.280
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. So he pulls the car up, but it

0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:59.160
<v Speaker 2>was really a scary neighborhood in those days. He told

0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:00.920
<v Speaker 2>me to stay in the car, and I was like,

0:31:01.000 --> 0:31:04.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm not staying in the car, you know. So he

0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:08.960
<v Speaker 2>had to throw a penny up to Todd's window because

0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:12.600
<v Speaker 2>Todd didn't have a doorbell, and so he threw a

0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:17.000
<v Speaker 2>coin up to Todd's window. And this guy looked out

0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:21.680
<v Speaker 2>the window, this guy, this multi colored hair. He looked like,

0:31:22.520 --> 0:31:28.640
<v Speaker 2>you know that toy, my little pony. He sort of

0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:31.560
<v Speaker 2>looked like my little pony. He was like a horse

0:31:31.760 --> 0:31:35.880
<v Speaker 2>with rainbow hair, but a beautiful, a good looking horse,

0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:40.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, a stallion. So but he so he came

0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:44.400
<v Speaker 2>running down the stairs to get the tapes, and the

0:31:44.520 --> 0:31:49.080
<v Speaker 2>exchange was made, and that's when I met him. Todd said, oh,

0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:51.080
<v Speaker 2>who's your friend, Richard? And you know, Richie said, oh,

0:31:51.080 --> 0:31:55.360
<v Speaker 2>that's my friend baby. She's moved here from Virginia. You know,

0:31:55.440 --> 0:32:01.040
<v Speaker 2>she's she's a model, she's with the four modeling agency,

0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:03.000
<v Speaker 2>blah blah blah. And it's just you know, like he goes,

0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:05.840
<v Speaker 2>oh great. You know, he was just wanting the tapes

0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:07.520
<v Speaker 2>and he was going to go up and do his thing.

0:32:08.000 --> 0:32:10.360
<v Speaker 2>So I met him, and I, you know, I of

0:32:10.440 --> 0:32:13.800
<v Speaker 2>course was immediately drawn to him. I think we were

0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.280
<v Speaker 2>drawn to each other. I think it was just some

0:32:16.480 --> 0:32:21.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of written in the heavens. I don't know how

0:32:21.480 --> 0:32:25.160
<v Speaker 2>healthy the whole thing was, but I think we had

0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:26.680
<v Speaker 2>to go through it, whatever it was.

0:32:26.800 --> 0:32:31.640
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, okay, so what are you living on? Are

0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:34.080
<v Speaker 1>you going? You know, there's a lot of looks see

0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:37.560
<v Speaker 1>are you getting booked? Are you working a little bit?

0:32:37.800 --> 0:32:42.360
<v Speaker 2>Yes? I was doing a lot of testing. You know,

0:32:42.400 --> 0:32:46.160
<v Speaker 2>you have to get a portfolio really really together, locked in.

0:32:46.320 --> 0:32:49.920
<v Speaker 2>So Eileen was sending me off to meet photographers, but

0:32:50.040 --> 0:32:52.880
<v Speaker 2>they would like me. So I was doing bookings for

0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:57.400
<v Speaker 2>my Bride's magazine. That was my first big booking, and

0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:02.479
<v Speaker 2>I would do Butterick and McCalls patterns, you know, I

0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:05.520
<v Speaker 2>was doing some catalog. Eileen felt that I needed a

0:33:05.600 --> 0:33:09.600
<v Speaker 2>little a little experience in front of the camera. But

0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:16.800
<v Speaker 2>it was it was photographers that that saw that I

0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:20.160
<v Speaker 2>had an edge that really enjoyed working with me. So

0:33:21.200 --> 0:33:25.080
<v Speaker 2>I started to really make I started to get momentum.

0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:29.160
<v Speaker 2>But then when I met Todd, that moved very quickly

0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:32.880
<v Speaker 2>and I moved in with Todd and before I Oh.

0:33:32.720 --> 0:33:36.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay, let's park that for a second. You had

0:33:36.360 --> 0:33:40.000
<v Speaker 1>the time before Todd. If we looked solely at your

0:33:40.160 --> 0:33:43.760
<v Speaker 1>modeling career, how much modeling did you actually do in

0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:44.320
<v Speaker 1>your life?

0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:48.320
<v Speaker 2>In my life, yeah, or in those months before I

0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:52.520
<v Speaker 2>went in my life, I think if you were going

0:33:52.600 --> 0:33:55.200
<v Speaker 2>to put it into I think my best years where

0:33:55.240 --> 0:34:00.560
<v Speaker 2>I really worked the most, were between seventy four and

0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:06.760
<v Speaker 2>seventy eight, So as far as professional modeling, those were

0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:07.600
<v Speaker 2>the best years.

0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:11.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay. And were you doing well full time? I know

0:34:12.000 --> 0:34:15.000
<v Speaker 1>we were with Todd at that point, but that was

0:34:15.040 --> 0:34:17.000
<v Speaker 1>the beginning of the era of the supermodel.

0:34:17.200 --> 0:34:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, that started in the eighties, and I had already

0:34:20.040 --> 0:34:24.000
<v Speaker 2>stopped modeling, but I still was photographed heavily. Even when

0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:28.399
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't modeling for income people were I was photographed

0:34:28.480 --> 0:34:32.880
<v Speaker 2>quite a lot. I was the subject of mini photographers.

0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:40.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, there are end pictures, but modeling takes a lot

0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:42.520
<v Speaker 1>of effort and it's a lot of work. Did you

0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:44.399
<v Speaker 1>actually enjoy doing it?

0:34:44.880 --> 0:34:47.799
<v Speaker 2>No, of course I didn't. Only time I did was

0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:50.640
<v Speaker 2>when I was in London. That was when I really

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:55.080
<v Speaker 2>buckled under and I lived the life of a very

0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:58.880
<v Speaker 2>very busy, hard working model where I would go to

0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:02.520
<v Speaker 2>bed every night, not party. I mean there were times

0:35:02.520 --> 0:35:04.759
<v Speaker 2>when Mick Jagger would call and say let's go to

0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:08.879
<v Speaker 2>tramp and I would be like, not tonight, Mick, I've

0:35:08.880 --> 0:35:11.520
<v Speaker 2>got a big booking tomorrow and I have to get

0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.600
<v Speaker 2>some sleep. Oh darling, I'll have you back. And I

0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:17.680
<v Speaker 2>was like, no, no, you don't understand. This is really important.

0:35:17.960 --> 0:35:20.560
<v Speaker 2>I really want this client, you know. So I was

0:35:20.640 --> 0:35:26.400
<v Speaker 2>being very disciplined. And then the photographer, ironically, when you

0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:29.560
<v Speaker 2>hear his last name, it's kind of funny. The photographer

0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:32.040
<v Speaker 2>that really legitimized me and got me on the pages

0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:36.480
<v Speaker 2>of Vogue was named Clive Arrowsmith and this was in

0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:40.680
<v Speaker 2>seventy six. And it was in the fall of seventy

0:35:40.719 --> 0:35:47.799
<v Speaker 2>six that Stephen Tyler from Aerosmith became the father of

0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:51.480
<v Speaker 2>my child. Well, he didn't become. He impregnated me, as

0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:57.279
<v Speaker 2>I we impregnated each other. So it's funny. I look

0:35:57.320 --> 0:36:04.280
<v Speaker 2>at some of the synchronicities and some of the abstract occurrences,

0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:09.319
<v Speaker 2>and no, I from seventy two to like seventy I

0:36:09.360 --> 0:36:14.880
<v Speaker 2>did Playboy in seventy four, and you know, I made

0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:18.160
<v Speaker 2>some money for that, but I would do a gig

0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:21.600
<v Speaker 2>now and then, just to make some money so that

0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:25.719
<v Speaker 2>I could just be whatever. I didn't even know who

0:36:25.760 --> 0:36:28.040
<v Speaker 2>I was. I didn't know what I wanted to be.

0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:31.600
<v Speaker 2>All I knew was that music was my passion, and

0:36:31.680 --> 0:36:34.640
<v Speaker 2>I kept my little notebooks with all my lyrics, and

0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I just didn't know how to I didn't know how

0:36:38.680 --> 0:36:40.880
<v Speaker 2>to get there. I didn't know how to do it.

0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:46.279
<v Speaker 1>Okay, when you were in Playboy. There have been some

0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:49.640
<v Speaker 1>famous people in the fifties. Once you hit the sixties

0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:52.920
<v Speaker 1>and seventies, they tended to be unknown. You were not

0:36:53.120 --> 0:36:56.920
<v Speaker 1>completely unknown. Of course, as time went on, a lot

0:36:56.960 --> 0:36:59.480
<v Speaker 1>of known people ended up doing it, But when you

0:36:59.560 --> 0:37:03.239
<v Speaker 1>were doing doing it, most people were relatively faceless in

0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:06.640
<v Speaker 1>terms of impact in the culture. How did you decide

0:37:06.680 --> 0:37:10.080
<v Speaker 1>to do it and what was the result of doing it?

0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:13.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh, my goodness, it's it's just such a it's a

0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:18.080
<v Speaker 2>crazy story. Uh. Todd was friends with a photographer named

0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:24.080
<v Speaker 2>Lynn Goldsmith, and she wanted to photograph me, and I

0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:27.520
<v Speaker 2>said sure. So she came over to our townhouse and

0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Todd was in the studio, and we had a lot

0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:35.080
<v Speaker 2>of props because Todd had all these fantastic jackets and

0:37:35.200 --> 0:37:38.439
<v Speaker 2>hats and you know, all kinds of fun things top

0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:42.160
<v Speaker 2>hats that I love. And she is a little by little,

0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:47.080
<v Speaker 2>the picture started getting less and less clothed, and before

0:37:47.080 --> 0:37:50.200
<v Speaker 2>I knew it, Lynn Goldsmith was photographing me nude with

0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:56.240
<v Speaker 2>feathers around my neck. So I was eighteen years old,

0:37:56.400 --> 0:38:00.560
<v Speaker 2>nineteen years old, and no wait when this happened, I

0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:06.080
<v Speaker 2>was nineteen and going on twenty. And so she took

0:38:06.120 --> 0:38:12.640
<v Speaker 2>the first nude photos of me, and they were really

0:38:12.680 --> 0:38:17.839
<v Speaker 2>good and in classic Lynn style, she wanted you know,

0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:21.640
<v Speaker 2>them to be published somewhere. I mean, they were good enough.

0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:28.560
<v Speaker 2>She was really good photographer. So she showed them to Playboy.

0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:32.759
<v Speaker 2>She showed them to Penthouse, which I objected to. I

0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:36.960
<v Speaker 2>did not like that magazine at all. But Playboy was

0:38:37.000 --> 0:38:41.880
<v Speaker 2>something that, as my friend Patty Smith called it at

0:38:41.960 --> 0:38:48.240
<v Speaker 2>the time, very American pie, very American, very uh pepsi cola,

0:38:48.600 --> 0:38:52.920
<v Speaker 2>very you know, Mickey Mouse, part of the culture. And

0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:59.359
<v Speaker 2>there were some iconic people like Bridget Bardoux and even

0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Linda Evans, and you know a lot of very beautiful

0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:06.759
<v Speaker 2>women of the times, Betty Paye, you know, a lot

0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:13.120
<v Speaker 2>of girls had done it. The Barde bread I remember

0:39:13.200 --> 0:39:16.000
<v Speaker 2>seeing there were these pictures of she and Jane Barkin.

0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:21.280
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, Todd had a girlfriend before me. Let's see,

0:39:21.760 --> 0:39:24.440
<v Speaker 2>I think Patty Smith. He was dating Patty Smith and

0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:30.240
<v Speaker 2>he had this another girlfriend, and but she broke his heart.

0:39:30.560 --> 0:39:32.319
<v Speaker 2>She was like the girl that broke his heart. But

0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:34.440
<v Speaker 2>he sort of always carried a torch for her, or

0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:39.200
<v Speaker 2>at least I thought he did. And there was talk

0:39:39.239 --> 0:39:42.360
<v Speaker 2>that she she was going to be a Playboy centerfold.

0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:48.480
<v Speaker 2>And when I heard that, I said to Lynn, what

0:39:48.560 --> 0:39:51.560
<v Speaker 2>did played? You know, Let's show those pictures the Playboy.

0:39:53.200 --> 0:39:57.719
<v Speaker 2>So Lynn showed the pictures the Playboy, and yeah, they

0:39:57.840 --> 0:40:01.520
<v Speaker 2>bit right away, and they me to Chicago. That's when

0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:04.880
<v Speaker 2>everything happened in Chicago. That's when Hefner lived in the

0:40:04.960 --> 0:40:09.319
<v Speaker 2>Chicago mansion. And I went and I did a test

0:40:10.160 --> 0:40:13.879
<v Speaker 2>test shoots for two days, and my test shots ended

0:40:13.960 --> 0:40:18.200
<v Speaker 2>up being the pictorial ended up being the whole thing,

0:40:18.840 --> 0:40:22.120
<v Speaker 2>except for the centerfold that was shot in New York

0:40:22.160 --> 0:40:25.600
<v Speaker 2>City on one of those cameras as I forget what

0:40:25.640 --> 0:40:28.960
<v Speaker 2>they're called, but they're prehistoric now. But it's the one

0:40:29.040 --> 0:40:30.880
<v Speaker 2>you have to slide the thing in and out of,

0:40:31.080 --> 0:40:34.520
<v Speaker 2>and the plate and the whole bit and you can't move,

0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:37.439
<v Speaker 2>You like, have to stay in the position you're in

0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:41.160
<v Speaker 2>until they say and you can't breathe. You can't do anything. People.

0:40:42.040 --> 0:40:44.839
<v Speaker 2>If anybody thinks it's sexy, it's it's not. It's it's

0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:49.560
<v Speaker 2>it's hard work. It's it's not glamorous shooting these pictorials.

0:40:50.080 --> 0:40:52.919
<v Speaker 2>I know people think it is, but it's not. And

0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:56.640
<v Speaker 2>it's just like doing a modeling job, except you're just

0:40:56.680 --> 0:41:02.200
<v Speaker 2>not promoting clothes. You're promoting something else. I'm not even

0:41:02.200 --> 0:41:05.240
<v Speaker 2>sure what, because I didn't really have much on my mind,

0:41:05.400 --> 0:41:07.960
<v Speaker 2>if you want to know the truth, except that I

0:41:08.080 --> 0:41:11.440
<v Speaker 2>wanted the pictures to be good. I wanted them to

0:41:11.520 --> 0:41:15.120
<v Speaker 2>be okay. That was, you know, basically the way I

0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:21.040
<v Speaker 2>was thinking. But I also wanted when I found out okay.

0:41:21.040 --> 0:41:22.960
<v Speaker 2>So then I found out this girlfriend was going to

0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:28.239
<v Speaker 2>be Miss April, so I thought Miss April. So I

0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:32.560
<v Speaker 2>actually went out and bought myself a shamrock necklace because

0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:35.399
<v Speaker 2>I thought if I wore a shamrock that I might

0:41:35.440 --> 0:41:39.120
<v Speaker 2>be Miss March, so that I would maybe beat her

0:41:39.160 --> 0:41:41.319
<v Speaker 2>to the punch. I mean, you used to make su

0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:45.520
<v Speaker 2>your brain do crazy things. But it turns out I

0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:48.480
<v Speaker 2>became Miss November. So she came out before I did.

0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:51.359
<v Speaker 1>But you wanted to be a shame woman who had

0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:52.960
<v Speaker 1>dated Todd previously.

0:41:53.480 --> 0:41:56.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes, her name was Marlene, and he even wrote a

0:41:56.200 --> 0:41:57.000
<v Speaker 2>song about.

0:41:56.840 --> 0:41:59.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah Marlene Marlene, Yes, yea.

0:42:00.440 --> 0:42:04.000
<v Speaker 2>And she she was that girl, beautiful and she and

0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I actually became really good friends. Where's she today, Well today,

0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:13.279
<v Speaker 2>I'm not really sure. I think she had some tragedies

0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:17.880
<v Speaker 2>in her life, and I think she even later in life,

0:42:18.000 --> 0:42:21.960
<v Speaker 2>became homeless and things, and I think she had some problems.

0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:27.279
<v Speaker 2>But at that time she was young and vivacious and

0:42:27.840 --> 0:42:31.759
<v Speaker 2>beautiful and a friend. You know, I actually liked her.

0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:36.000
<v Speaker 2>I took my first trip to London and actually stayed

0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:40.640
<v Speaker 2>with her. And this was can you believe it? But

0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:44.640
<v Speaker 2>I liked her. But she was madly in love with

0:42:44.760 --> 0:42:49.480
<v Speaker 2>Don Arden's son, one of the Arden boys. I think

0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:53.320
<v Speaker 2>I can't remember which one. But she wasn't interested in Todd.

0:42:53.360 --> 0:42:56.000
<v Speaker 2>And this was what was so sad about it, because

0:42:57.200 --> 0:43:01.000
<v Speaker 2>here I was thinking that his heart belonged to her,

0:43:01.920 --> 0:43:05.400
<v Speaker 2>but she didn't love him, you know, it was just

0:43:05.520 --> 0:43:10.359
<v Speaker 2>it was just she wanted a businessman. She wanted a

0:43:10.400 --> 0:43:14.840
<v Speaker 2>successful man with lots of money. Little did she know

0:43:14.960 --> 0:43:19.680
<v Speaker 2>Todd became very, very wealthy after that. But I don't know,

0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:22.319
<v Speaker 2>it's just so I never became Miss Marched. So here

0:43:22.400 --> 0:43:25.239
<v Speaker 2>I am this Miss November with a shamrock around my neck.

0:43:25.719 --> 0:43:29.520
<v Speaker 2>So everybody thought, for sure, I must be irish, But

0:43:30.920 --> 0:43:33.600
<v Speaker 2>it just it was just a moment. It was a

0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:37.800
<v Speaker 2>whim but it changed my life drastically in the sense

0:43:37.880 --> 0:43:41.239
<v Speaker 2>that there was no more fashion career for me. In America,

0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:44.840
<v Speaker 2>it was very taboo for a fashion model of my

0:43:45.040 --> 0:43:50.000
<v Speaker 2>status to become a Playboy centerfold, let alone pose in

0:43:50.080 --> 0:43:53.439
<v Speaker 2>the magazine. And as you know, in the eighties, John

0:43:53.520 --> 0:43:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Costablanca turned that around and every supermodel and their dog

0:43:57.880 --> 0:44:01.880
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be in Playboy, and so the mystique was

0:44:01.880 --> 0:44:05.760
<v Speaker 2>still very heavy when I did it. So I carried

0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:08.160
<v Speaker 2>the weight of that around and it was very hard

0:44:08.200 --> 0:44:12.440
<v Speaker 2>for me. I got booked with Cosmopolitan or Viva, you know,

0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:16.560
<v Speaker 2>the women's magazines that were kind of sexy. But it

0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:20.000
<v Speaker 2>wasn't until I went to Europe in seventy five seventy

0:44:20.080 --> 0:44:24.319
<v Speaker 2>six that I did all my most beautiful, legitimate work.

0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:27.840
<v Speaker 2>They just didn't care about nudity. In Europe. It was like, okay,

0:44:27.880 --> 0:44:32.760
<v Speaker 2>so what you've been in Playboy who Cares?

0:44:37.200 --> 0:44:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're missed November. Yeah, the magazine at the

0:44:40.960 --> 0:44:46.640
<v Speaker 1>time was selling millions of copies. Young boys were infatuated

0:44:46.680 --> 0:44:50.040
<v Speaker 1>with the playmates. But you were living in a relatively

0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:54.879
<v Speaker 1>insular model rock and roll world. Were people recognizing you

0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:57.440
<v Speaker 1>on the street. Did you get fan mail any of that?

0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you do get fan mail, but it all goes

0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:04.560
<v Speaker 2>to Playboy and then they give you, like a couple

0:45:04.719 --> 0:45:08.480
<v Speaker 2>times a year, a big envelope with your fan mail.

0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:14.920
<v Speaker 2>But I actually had boxes of it. They they called

0:45:14.960 --> 0:45:18.680
<v Speaker 2>me and they said, we can't send you an envelope.

0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:24.600
<v Speaker 2>We've got six boxes for you. So when you know,

0:45:24.680 --> 0:45:28.799
<v Speaker 2>I had when Todd was touring, I had them pick

0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:32.880
<v Speaker 2>up the boxes for me, the crew on one of

0:45:32.880 --> 0:45:34.920
<v Speaker 2>the tours, so that I could read the fan mail.

0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:38.560
<v Speaker 2>And I still have some of it. I kept some

0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:41.280
<v Speaker 2>of it because it was They would make drawings, maybe

0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:46.200
<v Speaker 2>beautiful letters, and it was very sweet, you know. Yeah,

0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:48.600
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, you do get recognized a little bit. But

0:45:48.640 --> 0:45:51.279
<v Speaker 2>in the world that I was living in, it was

0:45:51.360 --> 0:45:56.279
<v Speaker 2>all about the rock star, you know. I you know,

0:45:56.400 --> 0:45:59.439
<v Speaker 2>maybe maybe I was looked upon as an embellishment, who knows,

0:46:00.480 --> 0:46:05.360
<v Speaker 2>but I do know that it changed the way people

0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:10.080
<v Speaker 2>reacted to me. I think men especially thought that I

0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:13.000
<v Speaker 2>must be this wild beast in bed, or that I

0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:18.359
<v Speaker 2>must be a sexual, you know, an inphomaniac or something.

0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:24.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Posing nude conjures up a lot of stuff,

0:46:24.200 --> 0:46:27.880
<v Speaker 2>and and and people treat you differently, they really do.

0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:30.759
<v Speaker 2>They sort of take for granted that you're you're a

0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:34.320
<v Speaker 2>sexual being and that you're there for the sexual aspect.

0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:38.200
<v Speaker 2>So it's it's, yeah, you know you are. We're all

0:46:38.320 --> 0:46:43.480
<v Speaker 2>sexual beings. But at the time, I was so confused

0:46:43.960 --> 0:46:49.640
<v Speaker 2>about everything in my life that sex was really not

0:46:49.760 --> 0:46:55.120
<v Speaker 2>the most important thing on my mind, and I was

0:46:55.239 --> 0:46:56.759
<v Speaker 2>just trying to find my way.

0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's one other thing about models. There's a lot

0:47:02.239 --> 0:47:06.640
<v Speaker 1>of publicity about how models have to stay ultra thin,

0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:10.400
<v Speaker 1>they can't eat anything, there's pressure on looks. To what

0:47:10.600 --> 0:47:13.480
<v Speaker 1>degree did you feel that then, and to what degree

0:47:13.520 --> 0:47:14.480
<v Speaker 1>do you still feel it?

0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Well? I didn't even I didn't abide by it. I

0:47:18.320 --> 0:47:21.600
<v Speaker 2>was never a skinny, skinny girl. I've never my daughter's

0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:27.320
<v Speaker 2>never been a skinny, skinny girl. I never adhered to

0:47:27.520 --> 0:47:31.960
<v Speaker 2>that demand, and quite frankly, I'll be honest, it was

0:47:32.080 --> 0:47:34.560
<v Speaker 2>never demanded of me. Nobody ever said to me, oh,

0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:38.040
<v Speaker 2>you need to go lose one hundred pounds. I mean

0:47:38.719 --> 0:47:43.760
<v Speaker 2>one time I did one booking when I was three

0:47:43.920 --> 0:47:50.440
<v Speaker 2>months pregnant with my daughter, where they asked me, you know,

0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:55.640
<v Speaker 2>if I wanted to do some paternity dresses for their

0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:59.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, for the paternity catalog.

0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:03.440
<v Speaker 1>And I remember it being maternity. I think you mean maternity.

0:48:03.719 --> 0:48:05.239
<v Speaker 2>Did I say paternity? I like that.

0:48:05.440 --> 0:48:06.120
<v Speaker 1>That's interesting.

0:48:06.239 --> 0:48:10.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know what, that was the subject of my

0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:12.840
<v Speaker 2>entire life at that point. So yeah, that was the

0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:18.680
<v Speaker 2>paternity issue. But no, thank you for correcting that. It's

0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:23.920
<v Speaker 2>like prescription and subscription, you know, and it was just.

0:48:25.719 --> 0:48:31.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back to Todd now. So you have

0:48:32.200 --> 0:48:35.160
<v Speaker 1>this exchange of glances, then you go uptown with Richard.

0:48:35.239 --> 0:48:37.240
<v Speaker 1>When did you next see Todd?

0:48:38.440 --> 0:48:40.200
<v Speaker 2>What? What? What did you say?

0:48:40.360 --> 0:48:43.280
<v Speaker 1>You say that you met Todd when your friend Richard

0:48:43.440 --> 0:48:47.760
<v Speaker 1>was tapes, But really you and Richard were going up town.

0:48:48.200 --> 0:48:50.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah wait, no, I think where we were going was

0:48:51.360 --> 0:48:53.480
<v Speaker 2>wherever Man of La Mancha was playing.

0:48:53.560 --> 0:48:56.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well on Broadway. So in any event, uptown from

0:48:56.520 --> 0:48:59.919
<v Speaker 1>where Todd was. When did you next make contact with Todd?

0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:11.320
<v Speaker 2>It was about two days later, he invited He's He

0:49:11.440 --> 0:49:15.880
<v Speaker 2>told Richard that he was having some friends over to

0:49:16.080 --> 0:49:19.120
<v Speaker 2>his to his place. They were, you know, just smoke

0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:22.000
<v Speaker 2>some weed and you know, just to hang out. And

0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:25.800
<v Speaker 2>he was living with his friend Paul Fishkin. And I

0:49:25.880 --> 0:49:28.839
<v Speaker 2>mean there was another incident before that, but Todd hates

0:49:28.920 --> 0:49:32.800
<v Speaker 2>it when I tell it. So I'm just gonna blet.

0:49:34.320 --> 0:49:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Just because I'm injured. You don't have to tell. Why

0:49:36.040 --> 0:49:37.440
<v Speaker 1>does Todd hate it?

0:49:38.480 --> 0:49:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he hates it because he doesn't like to admit

0:49:42.040 --> 0:49:44.520
<v Speaker 2>that he ever did something so romantic. But he did.

0:49:45.400 --> 0:49:48.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay, we won't make it tell it, so, okay, there's

0:49:48.800 --> 0:49:49.760
<v Speaker 1>that other incident.

0:49:50.280 --> 0:49:53.279
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, there was there was the incident where I

0:49:53.480 --> 0:49:56.960
<v Speaker 2>ran into him and his dog because he was very

0:49:57.080 --> 0:50:00.279
<v Speaker 2>near my modeling agency. I'll word it like that. He

0:50:00.560 --> 0:50:06.640
<v Speaker 2>just happened to be sitting on the steps of where

0:50:06.719 --> 0:50:09.919
<v Speaker 2>Ford Models is on fifty ninth Street, and he lives

0:50:09.960 --> 0:50:13.719
<v Speaker 2>on thirteenth Street, so God only knows why he was there.

0:50:16.680 --> 0:50:20.120
<v Speaker 2>He had facetiously Okay, No, I mean he said he

0:50:20.360 --> 0:50:25.560
<v Speaker 2>was bringing his dog, Puppet, who was pregnant, to the vet.

0:50:25.840 --> 0:50:29.800
<v Speaker 2>Now that's very possible because Puppet was pregnant and she

0:50:30.000 --> 0:50:33.839
<v Speaker 2>did give birth to Furberger, who became my dog. But yes,

0:50:34.440 --> 0:50:36.800
<v Speaker 2>but anyway, I just thought that was all very sweet

0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:41.640
<v Speaker 2>and interesting. And then Richard calls me at the woman's

0:50:41.719 --> 0:50:44.560
<v Speaker 2>residence and says, oh, I got a call from Todd

0:50:44.600 --> 0:50:48.440
<v Speaker 2>and he's invited us over, invited me over, and he

0:50:48.560 --> 0:50:51.520
<v Speaker 2>told me I could bring that friend of mine again

0:50:51.800 --> 0:50:58.000
<v Speaker 2>if I wanted. So I remember that Richard at the

0:50:58.080 --> 0:51:00.920
<v Speaker 2>last minute didn't want to go. He goes, I'm not

0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:03.040
<v Speaker 2>gonna go. You go ahead and go, though they're you know,

0:51:03.960 --> 0:51:07.839
<v Speaker 2>they're expecting you. So I got there and I did

0:51:07.920 --> 0:51:11.799
<v Speaker 2>the thing where you throw the penny, and Todd didn't

0:51:11.840 --> 0:51:14.600
<v Speaker 2>look out the window. Paul Fishkin did and I had

0:51:14.680 --> 0:51:17.840
<v Speaker 2>not met Paul yet, so he looked out the window

0:51:17.840 --> 0:51:20.320
<v Speaker 2>and he goes, oh, babe, I'll come right down, and

0:51:20.560 --> 0:51:23.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, lets me in. And I walk in and

0:51:23.320 --> 0:51:29.160
<v Speaker 2>it's just Paul and two girls that seemed very very nice,

0:51:29.239 --> 0:51:30.920
<v Speaker 2>you know. They were one of them looked like she

0:51:31.080 --> 0:51:33.480
<v Speaker 2>might work at a record company. That was. They were

0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:37.040
<v Speaker 2>just hanging out rolling joints, doing the stuff we did

0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:40.680
<v Speaker 2>back then, and Todd had just gotten a new Sony

0:51:40.760 --> 0:51:44.120
<v Speaker 2>trena Tron colored TV, so everybody was having fun with

0:51:44.200 --> 0:51:47.480
<v Speaker 2>the rabbit ears and the whole bit, and then about

0:51:47.600 --> 0:51:53.560
<v Speaker 2>five minutes after that, Todd comes in and that was that.

0:51:54.640 --> 0:51:57.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't we didn't spend a day apart after that.

0:51:58.360 --> 0:52:00.600
<v Speaker 2>That was that? Was it? Hot?

0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:03.160
<v Speaker 1>Long after that? Did you move in with him?

0:52:03.960 --> 0:52:11.520
<v Speaker 2>Did I move in? I would say it happened about

0:52:11.960 --> 0:52:16.400
<v Speaker 2>three weeks. I think he was going on the road

0:52:16.480 --> 0:52:21.239
<v Speaker 2>as well, and Puppet was pregnant, and there was a

0:52:21.360 --> 0:52:24.000
<v Speaker 2>girl that he had staying there, but he didn't want

0:52:24.120 --> 0:52:26.799
<v Speaker 2>her to stay there anymore because he didn't want her

0:52:26.880 --> 0:52:30.919
<v Speaker 2>to think they had a relationship. And so he said, look,

0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:33.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, the nuns were giving me a hard time

0:52:33.719 --> 0:52:37.520
<v Speaker 2>about curfew, and my mother was calling all the time,

0:52:37.840 --> 0:52:41.280
<v Speaker 2>and Eileen Ford was losing her mind and very angry

0:52:41.360 --> 0:52:45.320
<v Speaker 2>at me because I was sleeping instead of going on

0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:49.440
<v Speaker 2>go sees, and I was being naughty. Let's face it,

0:52:49.560 --> 0:52:53.839
<v Speaker 2>I was being a rebel, and so he said, why

0:52:53.880 --> 0:52:57.080
<v Speaker 2>don't you just come stay here? And that's how it

0:52:57.200 --> 0:53:02.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of happened. I got to the apartment and it

0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:07.680
<v Speaker 2>obviously needed to be cleaned, it obviously needed to be organized,

0:53:07.760 --> 0:53:12.480
<v Speaker 2>and Paul was never there. His room and his cat

0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:15.840
<v Speaker 2>was in the back and Todd's whole world was in

0:53:15.920 --> 0:53:17.960
<v Speaker 2>the front, and then there was a kitchen and a bathroom.

0:53:17.960 --> 0:53:22.120
<v Speaker 2>It was a typical dog bone a New York City apartment,

0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:26.080
<v Speaker 2>but with beautiful high ceilings and gilded gold. It was

0:53:26.160 --> 0:53:29.680
<v Speaker 2>really beautiful, a pre war building, but it was, you know,

0:53:29.880 --> 0:53:32.120
<v Speaker 2>it was small, and it was old, and the rent

0:53:32.280 --> 0:53:37.400
<v Speaker 2>was something like three hundred dollars a month. And so

0:53:38.160 --> 0:53:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Todd went on the road. I stayed Ferberger was born.

0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:43.279
<v Speaker 1>Do you happen to remember what year?

0:53:43.400 --> 0:53:45.719
<v Speaker 2>This is nineteen seventy two.

0:53:46.280 --> 0:53:50.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so something anything has been released and he's on

0:53:50.280 --> 0:53:51.080
<v Speaker 1>tour supporting That.

0:53:51.239 --> 0:53:57.160
<v Speaker 2>First night, the first night I stayed with Todd. I

0:53:59.040 --> 0:54:04.640
<v Speaker 2>it's a funny story because this pot was so strong,

0:54:04.800 --> 0:54:08.239
<v Speaker 2>and he had bush Mill's Irish whiskey, and I drank

0:54:08.280 --> 0:54:11.520
<v Speaker 2>a little of that before I knew it. It was

0:54:11.600 --> 0:54:15.600
<v Speaker 2>the next morning. I literally put my head on his

0:54:15.880 --> 0:54:19.400
<v Speaker 2>lap and did not wake up until eight o'clock the

0:54:19.520 --> 0:54:24.800
<v Speaker 2>next morning. And it was really funny because we just

0:54:24.880 --> 0:54:27.279
<v Speaker 2>sort of fell as he fell asleep sitting up and

0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:31.239
<v Speaker 2>I fell asleep on his lap. But I woke up

0:54:31.280 --> 0:54:33.640
<v Speaker 2>and he went to play me. He said he wanted

0:54:33.680 --> 0:54:36.320
<v Speaker 2>to play me a song off his new album, and

0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:39.480
<v Speaker 2>it was Black Mariah. He wanted to play me Black Mariah,

0:54:39.960 --> 0:54:44.439
<v Speaker 2>and his stereo blew up some kind it was really weird.

0:54:44.560 --> 0:54:47.839
<v Speaker 2>Some kind of weird technical thing happened. But of course

0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:50.160
<v Speaker 2>he got back there and he tinkered and he fiddled

0:54:50.640 --> 0:54:52.759
<v Speaker 2>and he did all of his genius stuff that he

0:54:52.880 --> 0:54:55.440
<v Speaker 2>always did. I don't know if it was real, if

0:54:55.480 --> 0:54:57.560
<v Speaker 2>he was just trying to impress me, because I was

0:54:57.760 --> 0:55:01.480
<v Speaker 2>very impressed. I thought, boy, my friend is Albert Einstein.

0:55:01.600 --> 0:55:04.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, he he knew exactly what to do and

0:55:04.520 --> 0:55:08.759
<v Speaker 2>what tubes and what things to press. And before I

0:55:08.840 --> 0:55:12.080
<v Speaker 2>knew it, the music is coming out of the speakers,

0:55:13.040 --> 0:55:16.640
<v Speaker 2>and you know, he plays me the album. And I

0:55:16.800 --> 0:55:20.120
<v Speaker 2>remember when I heard the song Marlene. I wanted to

0:55:20.200 --> 0:55:25.200
<v Speaker 2>know all about it, I said, And I said, who's Marlene?

0:55:25.800 --> 0:55:28.680
<v Speaker 2>He said, Oh, she's a girl that I, you know,

0:55:28.840 --> 0:55:33.719
<v Speaker 2>really loved and and but we're not together and blah

0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:36.560
<v Speaker 2>blah blah. And and his best friend at the time

0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:39.320
<v Speaker 2>was Patti Smith, and it was important to him that

0:55:39.440 --> 0:55:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I met her. He wanted her opinion of me, and

0:55:43.040 --> 0:55:46.320
<v Speaker 2>then I became Then I became fast friends with Patty.

0:55:46.520 --> 0:55:49.040
<v Speaker 2>I just hit it off with her, like a house

0:55:49.120 --> 0:55:51.759
<v Speaker 2>on fire because she got it that I wrote in

0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:55.600
<v Speaker 2>my poetry books, and she got my stupid poems. She

0:55:56.200 --> 0:55:59.600
<v Speaker 2>liked them. I wrote this poem, this poem one time

0:56:00.160 --> 0:56:04.480
<v Speaker 2>that it goes you needle, you pen, you prick, And

0:56:04.760 --> 0:56:08.640
<v Speaker 2>she loved that. She said, that's three lines. That's real poetry, Beatie,

0:56:08.680 --> 0:56:12.320
<v Speaker 2>that's real. Keep going, keep going. And she was very encouraging,

0:56:12.560 --> 0:56:16.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, to that side of me, whereas Todd would

0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:20.480
<v Speaker 2>listen and he would say, oh, that's good, Yeah, that's

0:56:20.560 --> 0:56:22.719
<v Speaker 2>really good or something like that, but he would never

0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:25.600
<v Speaker 2>say like, oh, keep it up, or you know, he

0:56:25.800 --> 0:56:29.520
<v Speaker 2>was never like, I don't know. I don't know how

0:56:29.560 --> 0:56:32.080
<v Speaker 2>to explain what it's like to live with somebody of

0:56:32.239 --> 0:56:37.880
<v Speaker 2>that magnitude of genius, because basically all they think about

0:56:37.960 --> 0:56:42.400
<v Speaker 2>all day is the next genius move. They're like chess players,

0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:45.880
<v Speaker 2>which way are we going to move the rourk? You know,

0:56:46.040 --> 0:56:49.040
<v Speaker 2>which way are we going to move the king? It's

0:56:49.160 --> 0:56:53.800
<v Speaker 2>like their brains are always looking at the next challenge.

0:56:55.400 --> 0:56:59.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, did you end up feeling outside? I mean, you

0:56:59.200 --> 0:57:01.960
<v Speaker 1>had boyfriends before. Do you feel like I'm with him

0:57:02.560 --> 0:57:04.400
<v Speaker 1>but really he's in his own world.

0:57:05.040 --> 0:57:08.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think anybody that knew Todd felt that way

0:57:08.880 --> 0:57:12.400
<v Speaker 2>because Todd was constantly, constantly in front of a screen.

0:57:12.600 --> 0:57:15.520
<v Speaker 2>He had a computer before anybody on earth had a computer.

0:57:15.920 --> 0:57:18.480
<v Speaker 2>He had a computer before Bill Gates had a computer.

0:57:19.040 --> 0:57:23.880
<v Speaker 2>He had computers, he had animation, He had all of

0:57:24.000 --> 0:57:29.400
<v Speaker 2>these very complicated technical stuff, you know, way before anybody.

0:57:29.720 --> 0:57:33.200
<v Speaker 2>And he was very obsessed with it. You know, he

0:57:33.240 --> 0:57:38.400
<v Speaker 2>would spend literally hours doing his stuff. But yeah, he

0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:41.160
<v Speaker 2>would go to Maxis, he would go to concerts, he

0:57:41.200 --> 0:57:44.000
<v Speaker 2>would hang out, he would get dressed up. I was

0:57:44.080 --> 0:57:46.800
<v Speaker 2>this social director. I called it. It was funny because

0:57:47.440 --> 0:57:49.240
<v Speaker 2>I would say, Todd, You've got to get up for

0:57:49.320 --> 0:57:50.960
<v Speaker 2>a minute. You've got to go out. You've got to

0:57:51.360 --> 0:57:54.640
<v Speaker 2>say hi to people. Alice keeps asking about you and

0:57:54.720 --> 0:57:57.080
<v Speaker 2>wondering when we're gonna all hang out again. You know.

0:57:57.400 --> 0:57:59.600
<v Speaker 2>It was stuff like that. You know, we would go

0:57:59.720 --> 0:58:03.400
<v Speaker 2>see really great shows. We would go see Alice Cooper

0:58:03.440 --> 0:58:07.200
<v Speaker 2>at Madison Square Garden or Peter Gabriel Gabriel at the

0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:11.520
<v Speaker 2>Felt Forum, or my favorite show still to this day,

0:58:12.920 --> 0:58:17.680
<v Speaker 2>this is the best lineup ever. Was First, we start

0:58:17.720 --> 0:58:20.160
<v Speaker 2>with lou Reed and this is during the period where

0:58:20.200 --> 0:58:23.680
<v Speaker 2>he had the white bleached terre and he simulated simulated

0:58:23.760 --> 0:58:27.280
<v Speaker 2>shooting up on stage. Then Hall and Oates came on

0:58:27.480 --> 0:58:31.280
<v Speaker 2>after that. You can imagine that, Dinas right, and then

0:58:31.760 --> 0:58:36.120
<v Speaker 2>Al Green closed out the night. That was like one

0:58:36.160 --> 0:58:40.040
<v Speaker 2>of the best triples I ever. You know, got got

0:58:40.080 --> 0:58:42.280
<v Speaker 2>to and and Todd. Todd was at that and we

0:58:42.400 --> 0:58:45.000
<v Speaker 2>went backstage, and I remember Mick was there too, and

0:58:45.160 --> 0:58:49.840
<v Speaker 2>it was quite a night. But yeah, you meet everybody

0:58:50.720 --> 0:58:54.920
<v Speaker 2>through that whole social circle. So everybody I met was

0:58:55.000 --> 0:58:59.640
<v Speaker 2>somebody that I met socially at a party, at a gathering,

0:59:00.160 --> 0:59:04.360
<v Speaker 2>but most of us gathered and met at Max's. That

0:59:04.560 --> 0:59:08.320
<v Speaker 2>was sort of our living room, Max's, Kansas City. But Todd,

0:59:08.360 --> 0:59:12.840
<v Speaker 2>I'll be honest, he loved women, and women loved him,

0:59:12.920 --> 0:59:15.160
<v Speaker 2>and he was a bit of a womanizer when he

0:59:15.320 --> 0:59:18.200
<v Speaker 2>was on the road. But that was not his image.

0:59:18.640 --> 0:59:21.320
<v Speaker 2>That was not what people thought of him at all.

0:59:21.720 --> 0:59:25.360
<v Speaker 2>People thought of the Todd that was always buried with

0:59:25.520 --> 0:59:29.360
<v Speaker 2>his face in a computer or in some kind of

0:59:29.680 --> 0:59:30.880
<v Speaker 2>musical environment.

0:59:31.440 --> 0:59:34.200
<v Speaker 1>He was he faithful? Was he faithful when he was home?

0:59:35.400 --> 0:59:40.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm not positive, you know, I'll be honest. We were

0:59:40.560 --> 0:59:47.040
<v Speaker 2>all so young and everybody was running around like like

0:59:47.280 --> 0:59:51.120
<v Speaker 2>kind of KOOKI I remember Leonard Cohen would call, and

0:59:52.320 --> 0:59:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Todd would always know it was going to be Leonard,

0:59:54.840 --> 0:59:57.480
<v Speaker 2>and he would go, if you want to answer it,

0:59:57.600 --> 1:00:00.400
<v Speaker 2>it's crazy Leonard, because Leonard would want to come over

1:00:00.520 --> 1:00:03.840
<v Speaker 2>and he would get extremely drunk. But see, I hadn't

1:00:03.880 --> 1:00:06.919
<v Speaker 2>put together who Leonard Cohen was yet. I was too young,

1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:11.320
<v Speaker 2>but Todd got it, and I just remember Leonard came

1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:14.520
<v Speaker 2>over one night and he was super drunk, but he

1:00:14.640 --> 1:00:18.400
<v Speaker 2>was super charming. And Todd went off to go fiddle

1:00:18.520 --> 1:00:22.000
<v Speaker 2>with some electronic device because he and I was left

1:00:22.000 --> 1:00:25.959
<v Speaker 2>sitting there with Leonard Cohen, and I remember he picked

1:00:26.040 --> 1:00:29.640
<v Speaker 2>up one of Todd's guitars and he said, I'm not

1:00:29.720 --> 1:00:32.360
<v Speaker 2>a very good guitar player, he goes, but I'm a

1:00:32.520 --> 1:00:38.640
<v Speaker 2>great writer. And so I said okay, and he started

1:00:38.760 --> 1:00:44.600
<v Speaker 2>singing and I almost fainted. It was like it was

1:00:44.920 --> 1:00:49.000
<v Speaker 2>bordered on a religious experience. It was very profound. But

1:00:49.200 --> 1:00:54.480
<v Speaker 2>he was such a handful, oh, such a handful, and

1:00:54.640 --> 1:00:57.640
<v Speaker 2>I sort of felt sorry for him. I didn't realize,

1:00:57.840 --> 1:01:01.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, the degree of his Leonard cohenness, if that

1:01:01.800 --> 1:01:04.800
<v Speaker 2>makes any sense. He was just crazy Leonard to me,

1:01:04.840 --> 1:01:07.960
<v Speaker 2>because that's what Todd called him. But I, you know,

1:01:08.080 --> 1:01:10.000
<v Speaker 2>I liked him. I thought he was a little kookie.

1:01:10.080 --> 1:01:12.360
<v Speaker 2>So I would let He would call and he'd say,

1:01:12.360 --> 1:01:14.520
<v Speaker 2>where are you going tonight? And I was, I'm going

1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:16.240
<v Speaker 2>to go to the plaza, or I'm going to go

1:01:16.360 --> 1:01:18.560
<v Speaker 2>to I'm going to go to the tiki bar at

1:01:18.600 --> 1:01:20.440
<v Speaker 2>the plaza, or I'm going to go here or there.

1:01:20.520 --> 1:01:22.360
<v Speaker 2>Can I come, you know? And I would say sure,

1:01:22.440 --> 1:01:25.360
<v Speaker 2>and he would come along, and usually he would get

1:01:25.480 --> 1:01:28.760
<v Speaker 2>so drunk that, you know, somebody would have to end

1:01:28.840 --> 1:01:31.480
<v Speaker 2>up taking him home in a cab or something. You know,

1:01:32.120 --> 1:01:34.960
<v Speaker 2>we never we never dated, you know, we were just buds.

1:01:35.200 --> 1:01:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I know that sounds weird. And I remember one of

1:01:38.680 --> 1:01:41.760
<v Speaker 2>the it left such an impact on me. One of

1:01:41.800 --> 1:01:45.640
<v Speaker 2>the sweetest things anybody that's ever said to me was

1:01:46.760 --> 1:01:50.960
<v Speaker 2>was Leonard Cohen. And you know, I just said to him,

1:01:51.000 --> 1:01:54.280
<v Speaker 2>I said, I don't know what you're expecting from our friendship,

1:01:54.480 --> 1:01:56.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, I I don't know if you I know

1:01:56.560 --> 1:01:59.600
<v Speaker 2>you have plenty of girlfriends, because he did. He was

1:01:59.640 --> 1:02:03.400
<v Speaker 2>always talking about the women in his life and about Greece,

1:02:03.640 --> 1:02:05.520
<v Speaker 2>and you know, he was always talking about all kinds

1:02:05.560 --> 1:02:12.600
<v Speaker 2>of dilemmas and drama and and and he said, you know,

1:02:12.800 --> 1:02:17.640
<v Speaker 2>I just really really really enjoy being around you. He goes,

1:02:17.680 --> 1:02:22.080
<v Speaker 2>I just enjoy your company. I enjoy our discussions. And

1:02:22.200 --> 1:02:25.760
<v Speaker 2>he said, my favorite are the alien discussions. And so

1:02:25.920 --> 1:02:28.320
<v Speaker 2>we would talk about aliens. And so that was my

1:02:28.480 --> 1:02:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Leonard Cohen. But you know, one day I never never

1:02:31.240 --> 1:02:33.720
<v Speaker 2>heard from Leonard again, none of us did. He obviously

1:02:33.800 --> 1:02:36.640
<v Speaker 2>left New York, but he didn't tell anybody where he

1:02:36.760 --> 1:02:40.040
<v Speaker 2>was going or say goodbye to anybody. Just one day,

1:02:40.120 --> 1:02:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Leonard wasn't there anymore.

1:02:42.480 --> 1:02:45.360
<v Speaker 1>To what degree did you know Albert and Sally Grossman?

1:02:45.920 --> 1:02:49.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh? I knew them very well, Albert, especially Albert, and

1:02:49.560 --> 1:02:53.720
<v Speaker 2>I I got along with Albert. You know, I've watched

1:02:53.800 --> 1:02:57.720
<v Speaker 2>some of the greatest managers in the world up close

1:02:58.000 --> 1:03:01.680
<v Speaker 2>and personally, and you know, watching people like Albert Grossman,

1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Peter Grant, watching these people in action, it's it's unbelievable.

1:03:09.560 --> 1:03:12.920
<v Speaker 2>It's like Albert was apples and oranges to a Peter Grant.

1:03:13.760 --> 1:03:17.720
<v Speaker 2>But Albert, when Todd got the house up in a

1:03:18.880 --> 1:03:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Lake Hill or Bearsville, Woodstock area, we were always over

1:03:24.600 --> 1:03:28.720
<v Speaker 2>at Albert's house. I remember little intimate dinners. I remember

1:03:28.760 --> 1:03:33.120
<v Speaker 2>one night it was me, Todd, Albert, and Paul Butterfield

1:03:34.240 --> 1:03:38.080
<v Speaker 2>and you know, the boys were talking and I sort

1:03:38.120 --> 1:03:41.000
<v Speaker 2>of felt like, well, why am I here? Because but

1:03:41.640 --> 1:03:44.320
<v Speaker 2>it was always my go to whenever I wanted to

1:03:44.360 --> 1:03:48.400
<v Speaker 2>get anybody's attention and get the topic off whatever deal

1:03:48.520 --> 1:03:51.640
<v Speaker 2>they were talking about. We'd start talking about aliens and

1:03:52.880 --> 1:03:57.400
<v Speaker 2>that brought Butterfield right in. Oh my god, yeah, Butterfield

1:03:57.440 --> 1:03:59.200
<v Speaker 2>wanted Oh he was all on it. He was like,

1:03:59.280 --> 1:04:01.200
<v Speaker 2>oh yeah, let's talk about it. You know, it was

1:04:01.320 --> 1:04:04.840
<v Speaker 2>it was my go to, so whenever I wanted to

1:04:04.920 --> 1:04:09.240
<v Speaker 2>really jab a conversation, I even used that trick when

1:04:09.280 --> 1:04:14.040
<v Speaker 2>I was at tea with Savador Dolli. You know, they

1:04:14.120 --> 1:04:19.160
<v Speaker 2>were all talking about a lot of stuff. I remember

1:04:19.240 --> 1:04:23.960
<v Speaker 2>being in the room with an Ocelot, his wife Gala,

1:04:25.480 --> 1:04:31.720
<v Speaker 2>Truman Capoti, and a Mendelier And this was just from

1:04:31.800 --> 1:04:35.880
<v Speaker 2>him inviting me to tea because I met him at

1:04:35.880 --> 1:04:39.200
<v Speaker 2>the Saint Regis newsstand. We would go to the foreign

1:04:39.280 --> 1:04:41.400
<v Speaker 2>news stand there at the Saint Regis to see our

1:04:41.520 --> 1:04:44.120
<v Speaker 2>modeling pictures from Europe because it was one of the

1:04:44.480 --> 1:04:49.000
<v Speaker 2>foreign news stands and he was living there. So that's

1:04:49.080 --> 1:04:51.320
<v Speaker 2>how I met Savador Dolli. So when I say it

1:04:51.360 --> 1:04:54.240
<v Speaker 2>about the Forrest Gump stuff, I mean it in the

1:04:54.400 --> 1:05:00.400
<v Speaker 2>sense that, for some weird reason written in the Evans,

1:05:00.560 --> 1:05:03.680
<v Speaker 2>for some I was meant to cross the paths of

1:05:03.760 --> 1:05:06.120
<v Speaker 2>certain people whose paths that I crossed.

1:05:12.960 --> 1:05:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you mentioned Peter Grant along with Albert Roseman. He said,

1:05:15.960 --> 1:05:18.400
<v Speaker 1>you learned about management? What did you learn seeing them

1:05:18.480 --> 1:05:18.920
<v Speaker 1>up close?

1:05:19.760 --> 1:05:22.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, Peter Grant was ruthless. He was a very, very

1:05:23.680 --> 1:05:26.320
<v Speaker 2>very large man, as you know. But you know that

1:05:26.520 --> 1:05:30.400
<v Speaker 2>that organization used a lot of violence in their dealings

1:05:30.480 --> 1:05:35.360
<v Speaker 2>with people that annoyed them, which was the opposite with Albert.

1:05:36.080 --> 1:05:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Albert liked to get together and celebrate through food and gathering.

1:05:41.360 --> 1:05:46.080
<v Speaker 2>He even had tps on his property, you know, tpiece

1:05:46.120 --> 1:05:49.440
<v Speaker 2>that you could go sit in and meditate and smoke cash.

1:05:49.600 --> 1:05:53.720
<v Speaker 2>And it's different worlds. When you were around Peter Grant

1:05:53.880 --> 1:05:56.000
<v Speaker 2>or around that zeppelin, it was like hanging out with

1:05:56.080 --> 1:06:02.920
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of gangsters. You know the van were you

1:06:03.000 --> 1:06:05.760
<v Speaker 2>know De Niro and Pacino and you know they were

1:06:05.800 --> 1:06:09.520
<v Speaker 2>the it it's hard to put into words. When you

1:06:09.640 --> 1:06:12.560
<v Speaker 2>hung around with Albert, it was like being at the

1:06:12.680 --> 1:06:15.720
<v Speaker 2>king's castle. You would go hang out at his world

1:06:15.880 --> 1:06:20.120
<v Speaker 2>and his compound, at his beautiful house, and beautiful food

1:06:20.240 --> 1:06:21.160
<v Speaker 2>would be served.

1:06:21.400 --> 1:06:24.880
<v Speaker 1>And how about did you see any of his negotiation

1:06:25.240 --> 1:06:26.280
<v Speaker 1>business techniques?

1:06:26.680 --> 1:06:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I would see the way he treated

1:06:29.080 --> 1:06:34.640
<v Speaker 2>his artists, and I remember, did I ever see him

1:06:34.640 --> 1:06:36.640
<v Speaker 2>actually negotiate deals or anything? Oh?

1:06:36.680 --> 1:06:39.200
<v Speaker 1>You know, you see these people in action, they talk business.

1:06:39.520 --> 1:06:41.360
<v Speaker 1>Did you learn any lessons from Albert?

1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:45.720
<v Speaker 2>What I learned from Albert is is he had a

1:06:45.880 --> 1:06:51.560
<v Speaker 2>baritone kind of voice, and he spoke very softly. But

1:06:51.720 --> 1:06:55.520
<v Speaker 2>when Albert wanted to make a point, and when Albert

1:06:55.640 --> 1:06:59.120
<v Speaker 2>wanted to really get his Albert and this out there,

1:07:00.120 --> 1:07:04.640
<v Speaker 2>suddenly the voice would become like that and it would

1:07:04.640 --> 1:07:07.960
<v Speaker 2>get very strong and powerful. I mean, just to show

1:07:08.000 --> 1:07:11.320
<v Speaker 2>you the kind of manager he was. I was pregnant

1:07:11.360 --> 1:07:14.880
<v Speaker 2>with live and I was in one of our vehicles,

1:07:15.200 --> 1:07:21.480
<v Speaker 2>I think the jeep. It had snowed, and I Todd

1:07:21.600 --> 1:07:24.720
<v Speaker 2>was on the road as usual, and I was driving

1:07:24.800 --> 1:07:29.960
<v Speaker 2>down mean Collo Road with my friend Jean, and suddenly

1:07:30.440 --> 1:07:34.840
<v Speaker 2>another car came from the other direction, driving way too

1:07:34.960 --> 1:07:38.240
<v Speaker 2>fast and to be in the snow. Thank god, I

1:07:38.400 --> 1:07:40.440
<v Speaker 2>was more in my lane, even though it was a

1:07:40.560 --> 1:07:46.840
<v Speaker 2>narrow road. But of course we hit and they had

1:07:46.880 --> 1:07:48.800
<v Speaker 2>their kid in the back of the car with no

1:07:48.960 --> 1:07:51.400
<v Speaker 2>seat belt. Nothing but that was before anybody wore seat

1:07:51.440 --> 1:07:57.360
<v Speaker 2>belts anyway, And I just remember getting out of the

1:07:57.520 --> 1:07:59.880
<v Speaker 2>car and I was pretty shook up. Everybody was, you know,

1:08:00.080 --> 1:08:02.720
<v Speaker 2>Jean was especially worried about me because I was pregnant,

1:08:02.800 --> 1:08:05.040
<v Speaker 2>but I was okay. Everybody was okay, but the cars

1:08:05.080 --> 1:08:08.920
<v Speaker 2>were really fucked up, and I just remember having my

1:08:09.000 --> 1:08:12.560
<v Speaker 2>wits about me, and I just went to the first house,

1:08:13.160 --> 1:08:16.640
<v Speaker 2>which was right there, and I called Albert. Because we

1:08:16.720 --> 1:08:18.600
<v Speaker 2>didn't have cell phones and stuff, then I had to

1:08:18.760 --> 1:08:23.240
<v Speaker 2>like get on somebody's landline and call him. And I

1:08:23.400 --> 1:08:26.679
<v Speaker 2>told him, Albert, I've just had an accident on mean Collo.

1:08:28.000 --> 1:08:33.960
<v Speaker 2>He was there so quickly like that, and he had

1:08:34.080 --> 1:08:38.760
<v Speaker 2>me hustled off and I said, Albert, he goes, just

1:08:38.880 --> 1:08:42.479
<v Speaker 2>go home. I'll handle everything. And he had a big

1:08:42.600 --> 1:08:46.960
<v Speaker 2>pile of money and he had somebody take me and

1:08:47.080 --> 1:08:52.240
<v Speaker 2>my girlfriend off in another car. And that's the last

1:08:52.360 --> 1:08:56.360
<v Speaker 2>I ever saw of that accident. Wow.

1:08:56.560 --> 1:08:59.559
<v Speaker 1>So in any event, let's you know, you're Todd at

1:08:59.600 --> 1:09:02.040
<v Speaker 1>the time is working a lot. He's putting out a

1:09:02.080 --> 1:09:04.760
<v Speaker 1>lot of albums, and he's also producing a lot of

1:09:04.800 --> 1:09:11.000
<v Speaker 1>albums successfully. To what degree was he telling you about them,

1:09:11.160 --> 1:09:12.920
<v Speaker 1>and did you have input or did he keep that

1:09:13.040 --> 1:09:14.160
<v Speaker 1>totally separate from you?

1:09:15.120 --> 1:09:19.439
<v Speaker 2>Oh? No, No, We always talked about his music because see,

1:09:19.520 --> 1:09:22.640
<v Speaker 2>I loved it. When he played me the stuff he

1:09:22.800 --> 1:09:26.480
<v Speaker 2>was coming up with for Wizard or True Star, everybody

1:09:26.600 --> 1:09:29.000
<v Speaker 2>hated it, and they were giving him a lot of shit,

1:09:29.479 --> 1:09:32.240
<v Speaker 2>and they were telling him that it was too much

1:09:32.640 --> 1:09:35.439
<v Speaker 2>and that it was going over everybody's head and that

1:09:36.479 --> 1:09:38.479
<v Speaker 2>it was not the right kind of follow up to

1:09:38.600 --> 1:09:42.639
<v Speaker 2>something anything. But when he would play me the stuff,

1:09:43.600 --> 1:09:47.840
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was incredible. I loved it. So he

1:09:48.040 --> 1:09:52.720
<v Speaker 2>wasn't getting any shit from me. I loved utopia. And

1:09:53.320 --> 1:09:56.360
<v Speaker 2>when he took me to see that Sphinx and that

1:09:56.560 --> 1:09:59.400
<v Speaker 2>hangar in Kingston, New York, it was so big it

1:09:59.520 --> 1:10:02.800
<v Speaker 2>had to be an an airplane hangar. And he used

1:10:02.840 --> 1:10:06.760
<v Speaker 2>to fly off that thing every night, upside down with

1:10:06.880 --> 1:10:15.320
<v Speaker 2>a with no harness, just raw. And so I supported it.

1:10:15.600 --> 1:10:21.479
<v Speaker 2>Even though it people thought I enabled it. Instead of

1:10:21.560 --> 1:10:24.519
<v Speaker 2>that I supported it, they thought I enabled it. See

1:10:24.640 --> 1:10:27.960
<v Speaker 2>that you people that are making money off of you

1:10:28.560 --> 1:10:32.920
<v Speaker 2>always want to have somebody to blame if the money

1:10:33.040 --> 1:10:35.280
<v Speaker 2>isn't going to go the way they they they hope

1:10:35.320 --> 1:10:39.160
<v Speaker 2>it goes because of a change in direction. And with Todd.

1:10:39.640 --> 1:10:44.400
<v Speaker 2>This was an extreme change in direction from what he

1:10:44.560 --> 1:10:48.760
<v Speaker 2>had been doing previously, you know, as as the Todd

1:10:48.840 --> 1:10:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Rungren solo records, and and then suddenly to come back

1:10:52.760 --> 1:10:56.479
<v Speaker 2>with a Wizard or True Star and then to form Utopia.

1:10:57.400 --> 1:11:02.400
<v Speaker 2>It was it was a lot of pressure, a lot

1:11:02.479 --> 1:11:05.800
<v Speaker 2>of pressure for him. He went through a lot, but

1:11:05.920 --> 1:11:09.679
<v Speaker 2>he was producing big records, so he was making money.

1:11:09.960 --> 1:11:12.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, he was producing Grand Funk Railroad, he was

1:11:12.800 --> 1:11:18.000
<v Speaker 2>producing Hall and Oates, he was producing records. He produced Fanny.

1:11:18.439 --> 1:11:21.240
<v Speaker 2>I remember that was fun. I remember when he produced Fanny.

1:11:21.760 --> 1:11:24.479
<v Speaker 2>But you know, he was really in demand as a producer,

1:11:24.960 --> 1:11:28.400
<v Speaker 2>so he had the money and the freedom, you know,

1:11:29.000 --> 1:11:33.760
<v Speaker 2>to have a nice townhouse on Horatio Street, which we had,

1:11:34.680 --> 1:11:37.679
<v Speaker 2>and a home up in the Woodstock area.

1:11:38.320 --> 1:11:42.160
<v Speaker 1>Did you ever go to the studio Did he discuss

1:11:42.240 --> 1:11:44.880
<v Speaker 1>any of the projects when he was recording other people?

1:11:45.720 --> 1:11:49.639
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I always did, always, and I would sometimes even

1:11:49.720 --> 1:11:56.000
<v Speaker 2>fall asleep under the council and you know, I'd had

1:11:56.320 --> 1:12:02.200
<v Speaker 2>pillows and blankets. Yeah. Todd had a studio house where

1:12:02.400 --> 1:12:06.120
<v Speaker 2>the drums were downstairs, but the control room was upstairs.

1:12:06.720 --> 1:12:09.720
<v Speaker 2>So when he recorded by himself, he would have to

1:12:09.800 --> 1:12:12.240
<v Speaker 2>go down and play the drums and run back upstairs

1:12:12.360 --> 1:12:16.000
<v Speaker 2>because he didn't have an engineer there. So at one

1:12:16.040 --> 1:12:20.120
<v Speaker 2>point he taught me how to stop and start the

1:12:21.080 --> 1:12:24.240
<v Speaker 2>tape machine so that he didn't have to keep running

1:12:24.360 --> 1:12:27.400
<v Speaker 2>up there. So there were times when he would, you know,

1:12:27.600 --> 1:12:30.000
<v Speaker 2>have me do that, that would be my duty. Like

1:12:30.120 --> 1:12:33.000
<v Speaker 2>he would do a track and I would have the

1:12:33.080 --> 1:12:36.040
<v Speaker 2>headphones on and he would tell me hit the button,

1:12:36.920 --> 1:12:41.160
<v Speaker 2>hit the button. So yeah, I mean I was definitely

1:12:41.479 --> 1:12:46.080
<v Speaker 2>around for I saw a lot. Absolutely, I saw a lot.

1:12:46.840 --> 1:12:50.280
<v Speaker 2>I was around for a lot of conceptual stuff. I

1:12:50.439 --> 1:12:52.920
<v Speaker 2>was definitely around for a lot of the makeup and

1:12:53.000 --> 1:12:56.920
<v Speaker 2>the costumes and some of the crazy stuff Nicky Nichols

1:12:57.000 --> 1:13:01.559
<v Speaker 2>came up with. Yeah, I was. I was a part

1:13:01.600 --> 1:13:03.320
<v Speaker 2>of a part of it all.

1:13:03.960 --> 1:13:04.840
<v Speaker 1>So how did it end?

1:13:05.960 --> 1:13:08.519
<v Speaker 2>Not? Well, well, I don't even I don't want to

1:13:08.560 --> 1:13:16.960
<v Speaker 2>be so general, just from a lack of complete clarity.

1:13:17.080 --> 1:13:20.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we just didn't really communicate with each other properly.

1:13:20.960 --> 1:13:25.200
<v Speaker 2>We were so young, and we were both very unfaithful,

1:13:25.920 --> 1:13:31.240
<v Speaker 2>and I think my reasons for being unfaithful were very

1:13:31.320 --> 1:13:35.559
<v Speaker 2>different from his. But he met somebody that he fell

1:13:35.600 --> 1:13:37.559
<v Speaker 2>in love with, and then I and I met somebody

1:13:37.640 --> 1:13:42.080
<v Speaker 2>that I fell in love with and it we drifted apart.

1:13:42.479 --> 1:13:46.000
<v Speaker 2>And but yet the person that I fell in love

1:13:46.080 --> 1:13:51.120
<v Speaker 2>with was just crazy off the rails. It was to

1:13:51.280 --> 1:13:53.960
<v Speaker 2>the point where I couldn't handle it. It was too

1:13:54.080 --> 1:13:58.519
<v Speaker 2>much of the white pro moving and marching powder. It

1:13:58.720 --> 1:14:03.200
<v Speaker 2>was just too many drugs, too much, too much, too

1:14:03.320 --> 1:14:08.559
<v Speaker 2>much that lifestyle, that Aerosmith lifestyle at that point in history.

1:14:09.439 --> 1:14:13.720
<v Speaker 2>I've never seen anything like it. And people say, well,

1:14:13.720 --> 1:14:16.360
<v Speaker 2>what about the Rolling Stones, And I'll say, you know,

1:14:16.479 --> 1:14:19.920
<v Speaker 2>it was very different because I always knew. Notice that

1:14:20.000 --> 1:14:24.200
<v Speaker 2>the boys and the Stones they sort of had their

1:14:25.160 --> 1:14:27.720
<v Speaker 2>They knew when to stop. Maybe not Keith, but Mick

1:14:27.840 --> 1:14:31.320
<v Speaker 2>certainly did. Mick was always very smart about when to

1:14:31.400 --> 1:14:34.599
<v Speaker 2>make an exit, about when not to do that next line,

1:14:35.000 --> 1:14:37.400
<v Speaker 2>about when not to do that shot. You know, Mick

1:14:37.560 --> 1:14:41.880
<v Speaker 2>was very always practical. There was no practicality within the

1:14:41.920 --> 1:14:45.599
<v Speaker 2>Aerosmith camp at that point. So I was very scared.

1:14:45.680 --> 1:14:48.519
<v Speaker 2>And at this point, Todd had really become the father,

1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:51.519
<v Speaker 2>the father figure. That's why I called him the Todd Father.

1:14:52.600 --> 1:14:57.360
<v Speaker 2>And he took me back. I know he wants to

1:14:57.479 --> 1:14:58.680
<v Speaker 2>blame me for that, but.

1:15:00.320 --> 1:15:04.080
<v Speaker 1>But wait, wait, literally, how did he take you back?

1:15:04.600 --> 1:15:06.479
<v Speaker 1>You were living in a different place.

1:15:07.200 --> 1:15:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Well not really. I hadn't moved out. My stuff was

1:15:10.800 --> 1:15:14.920
<v Speaker 2>all still in our houses. I wasn't we weren't separated

1:15:15.000 --> 1:15:21.240
<v Speaker 2>yet or anything like that. He basically, you know I

1:15:21.280 --> 1:15:27.760
<v Speaker 2>I had lived, went back to Woodstock with him. He

1:15:28.200 --> 1:15:31.479
<v Speaker 2>we got rid of the house on Horatio Street, and

1:15:32.040 --> 1:15:37.599
<v Speaker 2>he pretty much told me. He told me about about Karen,

1:15:38.120 --> 1:15:41.760
<v Speaker 2>about Karen Darvin, the girl that was the girl he

1:15:41.800 --> 1:15:45.280
<v Speaker 2>had fallen in love with. It was Bruce Springsteen's former girlfriend,

1:15:46.160 --> 1:15:49.719
<v Speaker 2>and he had met her in Dallas, and he told

1:15:49.800 --> 1:15:57.320
<v Speaker 2>me about her, and it just it just became extremely

1:15:59.520 --> 1:16:05.439
<v Speaker 2>difficult because it felt to me like, well, if you

1:16:05.520 --> 1:16:08.240
<v Speaker 2>had fallen in love with this woman while I was pregnant,

1:16:09.400 --> 1:16:14.720
<v Speaker 2>why didn't we pursue any doubts about paternity? There's that

1:16:14.840 --> 1:16:22.040
<v Speaker 2>word again, before all these grand decisions were made. I

1:16:22.160 --> 1:16:25.000
<v Speaker 2>gave him the opportunity when I was seven months pregnant.

1:16:26.040 --> 1:16:30.200
<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm very concerned that this is going to

1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:32.720
<v Speaker 2>be a decision that you're gonna that's going to become

1:16:32.760 --> 1:16:40.880
<v Speaker 2>a problem. I was concerned, and he seemed to want

1:16:41.000 --> 1:16:47.000
<v Speaker 2>to take on this mammoth responsibility. He nobody ever tried

1:16:47.040 --> 1:16:49.719
<v Speaker 2>to fool him or tell him that Live was his baby.

1:16:49.960 --> 1:16:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Nobody ever did that that. I don't know how that

1:16:52.479 --> 1:16:55.880
<v Speaker 2>rumor got started or why people say that, but nobody

1:16:56.040 --> 1:17:00.840
<v Speaker 2>lied to him and said, Todd, you know it's your child.

1:17:01.040 --> 1:17:04.120
<v Speaker 2>That That's not how it happened. He knew where I

1:17:04.400 --> 1:17:07.719
<v Speaker 2>was for two months, he knew I was with Steven.

1:17:07.840 --> 1:17:10.880
<v Speaker 2>He knew that. So when I came home scared to

1:17:11.000 --> 1:17:15.080
<v Speaker 2>death and he took me back, he knew all of that.

1:17:15.800 --> 1:17:20.800
<v Speaker 2>So chronologically it's really impossible for him to have been

1:17:20.880 --> 1:17:25.679
<v Speaker 2>the father. Does that make any sense? And what happened

1:17:25.880 --> 1:17:30.320
<v Speaker 2>was I think whatever reasons he had for wanting to

1:17:30.439 --> 1:17:34.400
<v Speaker 2>take that step, I don't know if it was for control.

1:17:34.920 --> 1:17:37.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if he was really concerned about Live's

1:17:37.240 --> 1:17:39.720
<v Speaker 2>well being. I don't know if he still loved me.

1:17:40.000 --> 1:17:42.920
<v Speaker 2>There's probably a variety of reasons, and probably a little

1:17:42.960 --> 1:17:46.040
<v Speaker 2>bit of all of the above. But as soon as

1:17:46.120 --> 1:17:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Live was born, it it was obvious this wasn't going

1:17:51.680 --> 1:17:55.360
<v Speaker 2>to work, and it was obvious that he loved somebody else,

1:17:55.840 --> 1:17:59.680
<v Speaker 2>and it was very very obvious that and he had

1:17:59.840 --> 1:18:03.599
<v Speaker 2>He got me an apartment. Patty Smith, of all people,

1:18:03.720 --> 1:18:07.839
<v Speaker 2>helped him pick it out because he wanted her guidance,

1:18:07.960 --> 1:18:10.040
<v Speaker 2>what do you think Bobe would like and what would

1:18:10.080 --> 1:18:12.760
<v Speaker 2>be a good apartment to raise a baby in, you know,

1:18:13.680 --> 1:18:17.600
<v Speaker 2>and found me an apartment on fifty eighth Street. He

1:18:17.760 --> 1:18:20.280
<v Speaker 2>certainly wanted to get me out of that downtown, didn't he.

1:18:22.000 --> 1:18:26.479
<v Speaker 2>So there I was on fifty eighth Street suddenly, and

1:18:26.800 --> 1:18:29.120
<v Speaker 2>Karen was living with him. I mean, it really did

1:18:29.200 --> 1:18:33.719
<v Speaker 2>happen that fast, and Live was being raised as his child.

1:18:35.080 --> 1:18:41.240
<v Speaker 2>And believe me, Stephen and I made very many feeble

1:18:41.320 --> 1:18:47.400
<v Speaker 2>attempts at trying to, you know, fix it or just

1:18:47.560 --> 1:18:49.960
<v Speaker 2>get it all down, you know what I mean, to

1:18:50.600 --> 1:18:58.360
<v Speaker 2>at least confirm paternity, even a simple blood test anything.

1:18:58.560 --> 1:19:02.479
<v Speaker 2>You know. He had his blood drawn and I had

1:19:02.560 --> 1:19:06.479
<v Speaker 2>my blood drawn. But this is way before fancy DNA tests.

1:19:06.880 --> 1:19:10.200
<v Speaker 2>She has my blood type, so there was you know,

1:19:10.280 --> 1:19:13.400
<v Speaker 2>we couldn't say, oh, well, this solves the problem. In

1:19:13.520 --> 1:19:17.479
<v Speaker 2>my eyes, there was no problem. I knew, everybody knew,

1:19:17.800 --> 1:19:20.720
<v Speaker 2>and everybody was living in this kind of fantasy. And

1:19:21.280 --> 1:19:25.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm not judging, and I'm not saying obviously, everything happens

1:19:25.400 --> 1:19:28.960
<v Speaker 2>for a reason. And whatever happened, look how Live turned out.

1:19:29.080 --> 1:19:34.840
<v Speaker 2>She's an amazing, self sufficient, beautiful human being. And she

1:19:35.200 --> 1:19:39.519
<v Speaker 2>is Stephen Tyler's child, but she's also in some ways

1:19:40.120 --> 1:19:45.040
<v Speaker 2>Todd's child physically. I don't think you could dispute that

1:19:45.160 --> 1:19:48.479
<v Speaker 2>either one of them could possibly be her daddy. And

1:19:48.600 --> 1:19:54.519
<v Speaker 2>that's fine. That's her spiritual journey, that's her karmic voyage

1:19:54.760 --> 1:19:59.120
<v Speaker 2>with those two people that she loves dearly. They're both

1:19:59.760 --> 1:20:02.360
<v Speaker 2>her beloved father's that's the way she looks at it.

1:20:02.520 --> 1:20:05.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so they gave you this apartment, what are you

1:20:05.280 --> 1:20:05.720
<v Speaker 1>living on?

1:20:07.240 --> 1:20:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, of course he was. He was giving me money,

1:20:10.840 --> 1:20:14.200
<v Speaker 2>you know he was. He was giving me an allowance,

1:20:15.280 --> 1:20:18.960
<v Speaker 2>he was paying the rent, and I picked up a

1:20:19.040 --> 1:20:22.479
<v Speaker 2>little modeling again. I started to I did my first

1:20:22.560 --> 1:20:25.599
<v Speaker 2>modeling job when when I was six weeks old.

1:20:26.760 --> 1:20:29.640
<v Speaker 1>And uh, how long did he how long did he

1:20:29.720 --> 1:20:30.800
<v Speaker 1>continue to fit the bill?

1:20:32.400 --> 1:20:34.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, if you put the bill that apartment. My my

1:20:35.040 --> 1:20:38.320
<v Speaker 2>mother came and cleared me out of that apartment because

1:20:39.400 --> 1:20:43.360
<v Speaker 2>she just felt that I was not that I needed

1:20:43.439 --> 1:20:46.639
<v Speaker 2>some stability. I mean, my my family was very supportive

1:20:46.680 --> 1:20:49.320
<v Speaker 2>and loving. I have a very very loving family. I'm

1:20:49.400 --> 1:20:54.080
<v Speaker 2>very lucky in that respect. So we closed down that

1:20:54.200 --> 1:20:58.040
<v Speaker 2>apartment and I moved up to my family's cottage and Maine.

1:20:59.120 --> 1:21:04.720
<v Speaker 2>So odd. What he was paying for was at that

1:21:04.880 --> 1:21:08.400
<v Speaker 2>point it was really I didn't have nanny's you know,

1:21:08.600 --> 1:21:14.840
<v Speaker 2>I didn't have any big expenses at that point. But

1:21:14.960 --> 1:21:18.720
<v Speaker 2>he always helped, you know, he was never I have

1:21:18.880 --> 1:21:22.479
<v Speaker 2>to say, he was never stingy. He was never mean

1:21:22.720 --> 1:21:27.200
<v Speaker 2>about it. You know, he was helpful, he was sweet,

1:21:27.520 --> 1:21:29.400
<v Speaker 2>He wanted the best for live.

1:21:29.720 --> 1:21:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, But she gets older by the minute, and it's years.

1:21:33.960 --> 1:21:36.840
<v Speaker 1>She's in high school, she's about to graduate from high school.

1:21:37.000 --> 1:21:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Is he still helping?

1:21:39.439 --> 1:21:43.680
<v Speaker 2>No, not at this point by the time, by the

1:21:43.880 --> 1:21:51.920
<v Speaker 2>time she was I'm trying to get the timeline straight here.

1:21:52.880 --> 1:21:58.559
<v Speaker 2>The paternity thing became finalized when she was fourteen, So is.

1:21:58.600 --> 1:22:01.080
<v Speaker 1>That the line of demarques He paid before then and

1:22:01.160 --> 1:22:04.919
<v Speaker 1>didn't pay after, That's correct, But he did did Steven

1:22:05.080 --> 1:22:05.559
<v Speaker 1>pay after?

1:22:06.160 --> 1:22:11.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Yes, And Stephen also paid for her private schooling

1:22:11.880 --> 1:22:16.639
<v Speaker 2>for that last year before anything was confirmed. Stephen picked

1:22:16.720 --> 1:22:20.479
<v Speaker 2>up that. But yes, no, Todd. For about a year

1:22:20.960 --> 1:22:26.639
<v Speaker 2>before everything was public and confirmed, Todd had stopped paying

1:22:26.720 --> 1:22:30.840
<v Speaker 2>for anything. And then Stephen, Yes, Stephen did pick up

1:22:30.880 --> 1:22:34.600
<v Speaker 2>the ball very willingly, as a matter of fact. And

1:22:34.800 --> 1:22:37.600
<v Speaker 2>then the court of course ordered him to pay a

1:22:37.680 --> 1:22:40.920
<v Speaker 2>certain amount of child support, but Live started making her

1:22:40.960 --> 1:22:44.400
<v Speaker 2>own money when she was fifteen, and by the time

1:22:44.520 --> 1:22:51.120
<v Speaker 2>she was sixteen seventeen, she was extremely wealthy, and I

1:22:51.320 --> 1:22:55.439
<v Speaker 2>was putting everything away for her and keeping her safe.

1:22:56.280 --> 1:23:02.160
<v Speaker 2>When she graduated, she was a millionaire. Just nobody could

1:23:02.200 --> 1:23:05.439
<v Speaker 2>take advantage of her. That's where I came in. I

1:23:05.600 --> 1:23:09.360
<v Speaker 2>was her personal pitbull, and I'm very proud of the

1:23:09.520 --> 1:23:14.679
<v Speaker 2>job I did, and I'm also I'm very very happy

1:23:14.880 --> 1:23:18.880
<v Speaker 2>with the way she maneuvered the emotional part of all

1:23:18.920 --> 1:23:19.120
<v Speaker 2>of this.

1:23:20.720 --> 1:23:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, a rock chick moves to Maine, that's night in

1:23:24.960 --> 1:23:28.439
<v Speaker 1>the day, especially then from New York City. What's that

1:23:28.800 --> 1:23:29.160
<v Speaker 1>like for you?

1:23:30.200 --> 1:23:34.080
<v Speaker 2>I started a band, you know, my record came out

1:23:34.120 --> 1:23:37.920
<v Speaker 2>that Rick Okasik and Rick Darren's You're Produced. I started

1:23:37.960 --> 1:23:41.400
<v Speaker 2>a band called The B Sides, and nineteen eighty I

1:23:41.600 --> 1:23:44.960
<v Speaker 2>was doing my first show, and then before I knew it,

1:23:45.000 --> 1:23:48.519
<v Speaker 2>I was making a living off plane, you know, enough

1:23:48.600 --> 1:23:51.120
<v Speaker 2>to pay my rent and enough, you know, enough to

1:23:53.200 --> 1:23:58.559
<v Speaker 2>get by. I mean, I wasn't living some extreme life,

1:23:58.680 --> 1:24:02.080
<v Speaker 2>but I still had all my connections from the industry.

1:24:02.120 --> 1:24:06.240
<v Speaker 2>I still got invited to every wonderful party and still

1:24:06.680 --> 1:24:10.240
<v Speaker 2>felt very included in my industry. But I didn't mind

1:24:10.800 --> 1:24:13.840
<v Speaker 2>buckling under and really getting to work and do it,

1:24:14.080 --> 1:24:18.719
<v Speaker 2>and I obviously enjoyed it. You know, I enjoy writing.

1:24:18.840 --> 1:24:22.360
<v Speaker 2>I enjoy writing songs. I enjoy performing live. Grew up

1:24:22.400 --> 1:24:24.920
<v Speaker 2>with all of that. Some of her greatest memories they're

1:24:24.960 --> 1:24:28.599
<v Speaker 2>going to rehearsals with me and going to my gigs

1:24:28.600 --> 1:24:29.800
<v Speaker 2>when she was a little thing.

1:24:30.479 --> 1:24:34.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you've been at it for forty years. Everybody from

1:24:35.600 --> 1:24:38.080
<v Speaker 1>our demo is certainly aware of who you are and

1:24:38.200 --> 1:24:42.080
<v Speaker 1>that you make music. You have never broken through huge

1:24:42.240 --> 1:24:47.040
<v Speaker 1>commercially such that other people are aware of you. You're

1:24:47.080 --> 1:24:51.200
<v Speaker 1>going to be seventy. I'm seventy already. Does this disappoint you?

1:24:51.360 --> 1:24:55.000
<v Speaker 1>How do you metabolize the fact that you didn't break

1:24:55.080 --> 1:24:57.360
<v Speaker 1>through on a certain level of success.

1:24:58.520 --> 1:25:01.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that I I have a lot to

1:25:01.520 --> 1:25:05.680
<v Speaker 2>bring to the table for that very reason. You know,

1:25:05.840 --> 1:25:09.559
<v Speaker 2>success comes in many forms. You can look at success

1:25:09.600 --> 1:25:14.040
<v Speaker 2>as being financial or status related, or you can look

1:25:14.080 --> 1:25:20.400
<v Speaker 2>at success as being finishing good work, getting good work done,

1:25:22.960 --> 1:25:27.519
<v Speaker 2>doing good work. Your work is your name, and I

1:25:27.640 --> 1:25:30.280
<v Speaker 2>feel that the work I've done has been good work

1:25:30.800 --> 1:25:33.880
<v Speaker 2>and I'm proud of it. I've written two books. I

1:25:34.040 --> 1:25:36.519
<v Speaker 2>was a New York Times bestseller with my first book,

1:25:37.240 --> 1:25:43.280
<v Speaker 2>and I've written probably close to three hundred songs at

1:25:43.280 --> 1:25:47.880
<v Speaker 2>this point. I've made tons of records, you know that.

1:25:48.360 --> 1:25:52.680
<v Speaker 2>And I've made singles. And I do it because I

1:25:52.920 --> 1:25:57.120
<v Speaker 2>love it. It's a passion and I have fans. As

1:25:57.200 --> 1:26:01.160
<v Speaker 2>long as I can pack a room, I'm okay. I

1:26:01.240 --> 1:26:03.360
<v Speaker 2>don't have to see my name at the top of

1:26:03.439 --> 1:26:09.360
<v Speaker 2>the charts to feel successful. And you know, when I

1:26:09.680 --> 1:26:13.040
<v Speaker 2>went to New York for my last book and did

1:26:13.120 --> 1:26:17.560
<v Speaker 2>the honor at the National Arts Club, just to be

1:26:18.040 --> 1:26:21.519
<v Speaker 2>touted by the New York Times and to have the

1:26:21.680 --> 1:26:25.400
<v Speaker 2>people that I've known since I was eighteen in that audience,

1:26:26.840 --> 1:26:29.920
<v Speaker 2>it made me know that I'm doing good work and

1:26:31.560 --> 1:26:34.960
<v Speaker 2>that has given me the greatest pleasure. And I don't

1:26:35.000 --> 1:26:39.559
<v Speaker 2>think this journey is over. I really don't. Who knows

1:26:39.640 --> 1:26:42.960
<v Speaker 2>what might happen, you know, anything can happen. I am

1:26:43.120 --> 1:26:47.280
<v Speaker 2>so open to the possibilities of breaking rules. I mean,

1:26:47.800 --> 1:26:51.400
<v Speaker 2>speaking of breaking rules, look at Tina Turner. Everybody told

1:26:51.439 --> 1:26:54.880
<v Speaker 2>her it was over, and look at the comeback she had.

1:26:55.960 --> 1:27:00.559
<v Speaker 2>And the thing that that's important about the message I'm

1:27:00.640 --> 1:27:04.240
<v Speaker 2>bringing to the table. It's not the same as like Paulina,

1:27:04.640 --> 1:27:09.840
<v Speaker 2>who's like, Okay, I'm hot and I'm almost sixty. You know,

1:27:10.280 --> 1:27:13.960
<v Speaker 2>deal with it. It's exciting to see somebody have that

1:27:14.120 --> 1:27:20.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of confidence. I'm trying to give something different. I mean,

1:27:20.800 --> 1:27:22.720
<v Speaker 2>if I could take my clothes off right now and

1:27:22.760 --> 1:27:25.400
<v Speaker 2>look as good as Paulina does in a bikini, I might.

1:27:25.760 --> 1:27:29.320
<v Speaker 2>I might do that for shits and giggles. But right now,

1:27:30.240 --> 1:27:34.080
<v Speaker 2>what I'm enjoying is continuing the chain of good work.

1:27:34.840 --> 1:27:37.439
<v Speaker 2>And all the projects are that are coming my way.

1:27:38.320 --> 1:27:41.400
<v Speaker 2>There's a treatment for a series, there's somebody that wants

1:27:41.439 --> 1:27:43.920
<v Speaker 2>to make a documentary of my life. There's somebody that

1:27:44.040 --> 1:27:46.640
<v Speaker 2>wants to make a movie of my life. There's so

1:27:46.840 --> 1:27:50.960
<v Speaker 2>many things that are in the works right now that

1:27:51.080 --> 1:27:56.120
<v Speaker 2>who knows, maybe my music will be reborn a La

1:27:56.760 --> 1:28:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Sugarman or something in a soundtrack. You know. I just

1:28:02.560 --> 1:28:04.479
<v Speaker 2>want to be proud of the work I do and

1:28:04.600 --> 1:28:08.080
<v Speaker 2>if someday it gets acknowledged, the heck.

1:28:08.720 --> 1:28:11.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so what do you live in on now? Financially?

1:28:11.960 --> 1:28:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, what do I live on? I have my Social

1:28:15.000 --> 1:28:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Security and I'm kidding no. I live on the work

1:28:18.800 --> 1:28:21.920
<v Speaker 2>I do, you know, the gigs I play, the performances,

1:28:22.040 --> 1:28:26.280
<v Speaker 2>I do the appearances, I make, the autograph sessions, I

1:28:26.400 --> 1:28:32.479
<v Speaker 2>do autograph conventions. I have a husband that co earns

1:28:32.600 --> 1:28:38.720
<v Speaker 2>with me. And the house that I'm in was just

1:28:38.800 --> 1:28:44.360
<v Speaker 2>an accumulation of everything I've ever done. It's just everything accumulated.

1:28:45.080 --> 1:28:50.800
<v Speaker 2>And I don't really I don't work a nine to

1:28:50.960 --> 1:28:54.120
<v Speaker 2>five job, but I consider the hours I put in

1:28:55.080 --> 1:28:59.879
<v Speaker 2>to writing and creating and doing things like this podcast.

1:29:00.800 --> 1:29:03.920
<v Speaker 2>That's my work. That's what I do. And when I

1:29:04.000 --> 1:29:06.840
<v Speaker 2>can make money, when I can make good money, I

1:29:07.000 --> 1:29:09.880
<v Speaker 2>accept the invitation to make good money. I enjoy it.

1:29:10.520 --> 1:29:15.160
<v Speaker 2>I do a little bit of consulting. I know that

1:29:16.720 --> 1:29:21.439
<v Speaker 2>my knowledge about the industry is one of the things

1:29:21.520 --> 1:29:25.679
<v Speaker 2>that's kept me afloat when young people that are entering

1:29:25.800 --> 1:29:29.920
<v Speaker 2>this business have parents that might be scared or worried

1:29:29.960 --> 1:29:32.040
<v Speaker 2>about their futures or how they're going to handle this.

1:29:33.800 --> 1:29:38.400
<v Speaker 2>I am hired as a creative consultant and I can help.

1:29:39.280 --> 1:29:41.960
<v Speaker 2>And I don't mind signing in das and having to

1:29:42.040 --> 1:29:44.560
<v Speaker 2>keep my mouth shut about because a couple of the

1:29:44.600 --> 1:29:47.719
<v Speaker 2>people I've worked with have gone on to become extremely famous.

1:29:48.479 --> 1:29:52.639
<v Speaker 2>So I'm very proud. I get to be secretly proud,

1:29:53.520 --> 1:29:57.639
<v Speaker 2>and just because everybody doesn't know about all the stuff

1:29:57.720 --> 1:30:00.960
<v Speaker 2>you do in your life. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be proud.

1:30:01.920 --> 1:30:04.280
<v Speaker 2>And you know the fact that I can go to

1:30:04.360 --> 1:30:09.800
<v Speaker 2>Trader Joe's and buy my own groceries, and you know

1:30:09.920 --> 1:30:11.400
<v Speaker 2>that it's a good feeling.

1:30:18.640 --> 1:30:22.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back a step Rick, Okay, sick. You

1:30:22.840 --> 1:30:26.599
<v Speaker 1>become friends, and he's a very close friend. You're talking

1:30:26.680 --> 1:30:29.840
<v Speaker 1>the book about, You're inebriated, and he drives you from

1:30:29.920 --> 1:30:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Boston to Maine. Ultimately, in retrospect, I'm reading the book

1:30:35.080 --> 1:30:38.560
<v Speaker 1>at the time. He is married and has children. He

1:30:38.880 --> 1:30:41.520
<v Speaker 1>ultimately jumps ship for Paulina.

1:30:42.040 --> 1:30:42.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1:30:42.280 --> 1:30:45.759
<v Speaker 1>Do you think he was calling you from overseas producing

1:30:45.840 --> 1:30:49.280
<v Speaker 1>your records that secretly he wanted to be with you?

1:30:51.720 --> 1:30:56.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, my mother certainly thought that, and so

1:30:56.200 --> 1:31:02.439
<v Speaker 2>did several of my friends. But I think that I

1:31:02.680 --> 1:31:08.160
<v Speaker 2>was in denial. If that was his intention, he would

1:31:08.160 --> 1:31:12.040
<v Speaker 2>write me beautiful poems too. I have beautiful I mean,

1:31:12.120 --> 1:31:19.200
<v Speaker 2>I have poems from him that became songs. And there

1:31:19.280 --> 1:31:24.240
<v Speaker 2>may have been some unrequated desire there, but he never

1:31:25.040 --> 1:31:30.400
<v Speaker 2>pushed himself on me. He never was Maybe he was

1:31:30.479 --> 1:31:33.479
<v Speaker 2>waiting to see if I would bite. I don't know,

1:31:34.520 --> 1:31:39.439
<v Speaker 2>but I never did. I didn't want to screw it up.

1:31:40.479 --> 1:31:45.240
<v Speaker 2>Relationships always seemed to screw up, and I mean when

1:31:45.280 --> 1:31:48.519
<v Speaker 2>I started to date Rod Stewart, it screwed up. When

1:31:48.600 --> 1:31:52.559
<v Speaker 2>we were friends, we had a blast, We would run

1:31:52.600 --> 1:31:55.120
<v Speaker 2>around together and have the greatest time, and then as

1:31:55.160 --> 1:31:59.960
<v Speaker 2>soon as we became lovers, it just ruined our relation

1:32:00.000 --> 1:32:04.120
<v Speaker 2>relationship And I still to this day, I think Rod

1:32:04.160 --> 1:32:06.479
<v Speaker 2>Stewart is one of the most talented, lovely men I've

1:32:06.520 --> 1:32:10.760
<v Speaker 2>ever known. But I wasn't the right girl for him,

1:32:10.840 --> 1:32:12.760
<v Speaker 2>and we weren't right for each other. We were good

1:32:12.800 --> 1:32:19.040
<v Speaker 2>as mates. That's what we worked as with Rick. I

1:32:19.360 --> 1:32:23.280
<v Speaker 2>just to have somebody believe in me like that and

1:32:23.720 --> 1:32:27.519
<v Speaker 2>not be trying to get in my pants. I wasn't

1:32:27.560 --> 1:32:32.040
<v Speaker 2>gonna let that change. For one minute. I was in heaven.

1:32:32.200 --> 1:32:35.559
<v Speaker 2>It was like being taken seriously. It was like working

1:32:35.640 --> 1:32:39.080
<v Speaker 2>with a director that you admire and he's not interested

1:32:39.160 --> 1:32:41.679
<v Speaker 2>in you for anything but the role you're gonna play.

1:32:43.040 --> 1:32:45.639
<v Speaker 1>Okay. In the book, you make a big point about

1:32:45.760 --> 1:32:49.880
<v Speaker 1>identifying and recording the Wild One Forever off the first

1:32:50.040 --> 1:32:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Tom Petty album, and you do a great version of that,

1:32:53.680 --> 1:32:55.840
<v Speaker 1>and it's now been reissued by the same company that

1:32:56.160 --> 1:33:01.040
<v Speaker 1>has your new book, Rebel Soul. So tell me the

1:33:01.160 --> 1:33:03.839
<v Speaker 1>story of how you got hooked and you ultimately recorded

1:33:03.880 --> 1:33:04.280
<v Speaker 1>that track.

1:33:05.400 --> 1:33:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, I was one of the lucky people that was

1:33:09.240 --> 1:33:13.800
<v Speaker 2>at the bottom line for those Tom Petty shows, the

1:33:14.840 --> 1:33:19.080
<v Speaker 2>multiple shows that he did. I'll just never forget it

1:33:19.080 --> 1:33:21.680
<v Speaker 2>in my life. You know, I've not been able to

1:33:21.760 --> 1:33:24.240
<v Speaker 2>meet Bob Dylan a whole lot of times in my life.

1:33:24.320 --> 1:33:27.519
<v Speaker 2>Every time I've met him, it's just been in passing, like,

1:33:28.120 --> 1:33:32.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, Hi Bob, and hi baby. Yeah, I read

1:33:32.840 --> 1:33:35.720
<v Speaker 2>about you and Cream, you know, you know whatever, just

1:33:35.800 --> 1:33:38.400
<v Speaker 2>small talk. But this was the night where I was

1:33:38.520 --> 1:33:40.599
<v Speaker 2>backstaying let's stop there for a second.

1:33:41.160 --> 1:33:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Is that a true story? You're just throwing them off.

1:33:43.479 --> 1:33:45.280
<v Speaker 1>Would Bob Dylan read Cream?

1:33:47.439 --> 1:33:50.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if he really did, or if he

1:33:50.800 --> 1:33:53.120
<v Speaker 2>just said that to be funny. I mean, you never

1:33:53.240 --> 1:33:54.200
<v Speaker 2>know with Bob Dylan.

1:33:54.400 --> 1:33:56.800
<v Speaker 1>So he actually said I saw you in Cream, that

1:33:56.960 --> 1:33:58.919
<v Speaker 1>means you had to be paying attention somewhere.

1:33:59.520 --> 1:34:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, oh, you never know. You just never

1:34:03.080 --> 1:34:08.600
<v Speaker 2>know with people like that, they're very mysterious. You just

1:34:08.800 --> 1:34:12.720
<v Speaker 2>never know. One of the first letters I got from

1:34:12.840 --> 1:34:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Costello cited something that was from Cream that he had

1:34:19.479 --> 1:34:24.320
<v Speaker 2>written Rick that he had read. So you know, these guys,

1:34:24.439 --> 1:34:29.000
<v Speaker 2>they'll surprise you sometimes. You know Dylan, you know when

1:34:29.000 --> 1:34:31.600
<v Speaker 2>you find out that he makes iron works and is

1:34:31.680 --> 1:34:34.760
<v Speaker 2>one of the best painters on earth, it's shocking when

1:34:34.760 --> 1:34:39.640
<v Speaker 2>you see how brilliant he is all around. But the

1:34:39.720 --> 1:34:44.559
<v Speaker 2>whole thing with the Tom Petty thing, I'm kidding, I'm

1:34:44.640 --> 1:34:45.680
<v Speaker 2>losing my train of thought.

1:34:45.720 --> 1:34:49.120
<v Speaker 1>Oh you're perfect. You brought it back. I give you credit.

1:34:51.360 --> 1:34:55.040
<v Speaker 2>Well with the Tom Petty thing, it was just being there. Well,

1:34:55.080 --> 1:34:58.880
<v Speaker 2>that was the night I was standing and Bob was

1:34:58.920 --> 1:35:01.000
<v Speaker 2>sitting on one of the you know how small that

1:35:01.200 --> 1:35:05.120
<v Speaker 2>backstage and line was, and you had just that tiny

1:35:05.240 --> 1:35:09.439
<v Speaker 2>little area that had a bunch of the equipment boxes

1:35:09.520 --> 1:35:11.960
<v Speaker 2>and everything, and Bob was sort of sitting on one

1:35:12.560 --> 1:35:15.920
<v Speaker 2>and he was gonna watch I think he was going

1:35:15.960 --> 1:35:18.439
<v Speaker 2>to watch the band from there. And I remember Grace

1:35:18.560 --> 1:35:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Slick was there that night too. Everybody was very curious

1:35:22.200 --> 1:35:26.040
<v Speaker 2>about this Tom Petty kid. You know, this this Southern

1:35:26.080 --> 1:35:31.400
<v Speaker 2>boy with the best hair and with the draw And

1:35:31.560 --> 1:35:33.719
<v Speaker 2>I just remember Bob turning to me and he goes,

1:35:34.600 --> 1:35:36.160
<v Speaker 2>what am I doing? Do you want to sit here

1:35:36.240 --> 1:35:40.800
<v Speaker 2>on my box? And he goes it seems to be

1:35:40.920 --> 1:35:44.160
<v Speaker 2>the only seat, and I said, nope, I'm going to

1:35:44.240 --> 1:35:46.519
<v Speaker 2>go in the audience. I said I want to see

1:35:46.600 --> 1:35:51.200
<v Speaker 2>this from the front, and he said that's the way

1:35:51.320 --> 1:35:53.439
<v Speaker 2>to do it. But he didn't go to the front.

1:35:54.920 --> 1:35:58.519
<v Speaker 2>But I just remember the exchange him going, do you

1:35:58.600 --> 1:36:00.960
<v Speaker 2>want my box? He was gonna give me his seat,

1:36:01.400 --> 1:36:05.479
<v Speaker 2>which was very very sweet and very gallant. But that's it.

1:36:06.160 --> 1:36:08.160
<v Speaker 2>My exchange is with Bob Doll.

1:36:08.560 --> 1:36:10.479
<v Speaker 1>But we're talking about the wild One forever.

1:36:10.720 --> 1:36:14.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So anyway, I saw Tom Petty perform that night,

1:36:15.840 --> 1:36:22.920
<v Speaker 2>and when I saw him do that song, it just

1:36:23.479 --> 1:36:25.880
<v Speaker 2>it resonated with me. It was it just grabbed me.

1:36:26.720 --> 1:36:30.360
<v Speaker 2>It grabbed me. And I don't even know if it

1:36:30.479 --> 1:36:32.600
<v Speaker 2>was on a record yet. I'm not sure because I

1:36:32.680 --> 1:36:35.880
<v Speaker 2>can't remember the order of the records. I just remember

1:36:35.960 --> 1:36:36.920
<v Speaker 2>what year this was.

1:36:37.640 --> 1:36:40.200
<v Speaker 1>That was nineteen seventy seven in the record, it was the.

1:36:40.240 --> 1:36:43.599
<v Speaker 2>Fall of seventy seven at the bottom line, right, Yeah,

1:36:44.280 --> 1:36:46.760
<v Speaker 2>because Live was just a little baby, she was just

1:36:46.840 --> 1:36:52.240
<v Speaker 2>a couple of months old and he met her. But

1:36:54.479 --> 1:36:56.600
<v Speaker 2>it was when I actually got the records and I

1:36:56.680 --> 1:37:01.120
<v Speaker 2>started listening to Tom Petty's music that it rest It

1:37:01.240 --> 1:37:03.200
<v Speaker 2>hit me the way the Everly Brothers. Did it hit

1:37:03.320 --> 1:37:06.439
<v Speaker 2>me in the way that that, you know, the first

1:37:06.800 --> 1:37:12.360
<v Speaker 2>time I heard that song, I will follow him, you.

1:37:12.400 --> 1:37:15.360
<v Speaker 1>Know, followel little Peggy March.

1:37:16.200 --> 1:37:21.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there you go. And there just wasn't a bad

1:37:21.280 --> 1:37:26.280
<v Speaker 2>song in the Tom Petty repertoire. There wasn't a dud

1:37:26.479 --> 1:37:32.759
<v Speaker 2>in the bunch. And he just became my favorite songwriter.

1:37:33.360 --> 1:37:36.639
<v Speaker 2>And I chose the Wild One because I could sing

1:37:36.720 --> 1:37:38.680
<v Speaker 2>the shit out of it. You know. I did a

1:37:38.720 --> 1:37:41.439
<v Speaker 2>good job with it. And when I sang it for Rick,

1:37:41.560 --> 1:37:47.840
<v Speaker 2>he cried, I mean not okay, sick, but Darrenger. Darrenger goes, okay, well,

1:37:48.120 --> 1:37:50.280
<v Speaker 2>show me sing it for me. So I did an

1:37:50.280 --> 1:37:53.559
<v Speaker 2>acappella version of it for him, and I made him

1:37:53.560 --> 1:37:56.960
<v Speaker 2>actually get a little misty. He goes, okay, we'll record it.

1:37:57.920 --> 1:38:00.280
<v Speaker 2>So I mean that's how I sell everything because I'm

1:38:00.280 --> 1:38:03.040
<v Speaker 2>not a real musician. I can play harmonica. I'm a

1:38:03.080 --> 1:38:06.200
<v Speaker 2>good harmonica player. If you hand me a bass, I

1:38:06.320 --> 1:38:09.479
<v Speaker 2>can play a little bass. I can tink her on

1:38:09.600 --> 1:38:13.120
<v Speaker 2>a piano a little bit. But my mic stand is

1:38:13.200 --> 1:38:17.600
<v Speaker 2>my my my my piece. That is my instrument. And

1:38:20.520 --> 1:38:23.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, the way I get my songs across is

1:38:23.280 --> 1:38:26.560
<v Speaker 2>a cappella. I just Okay, the way I get a

1:38:26.680 --> 1:38:30.400
<v Speaker 2>riff across. If I want to get a riff across

1:38:30.439 --> 1:38:33.360
<v Speaker 2>to my husband when we're writing a song, I'll just

1:38:36.040 --> 1:38:39.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'll grunt it, or I'll snap it, or

1:38:39.280 --> 1:38:42.120
<v Speaker 2>I'll sing it. You know, just do the melody.

1:38:42.720 --> 1:38:46.240
<v Speaker 1>Okay, you're talking. You're talking about your husband. How did

1:38:46.320 --> 1:38:49.519
<v Speaker 1>you meet him? How did you decide to get married

1:38:49.640 --> 1:38:53.360
<v Speaker 1>for the first time? My understanding and why is it lasted?

1:38:54.320 --> 1:38:59.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I met Jim. It's funny because we

1:38:59.640 --> 1:39:03.240
<v Speaker 2>both had the same friends. We should have met years before.

1:39:04.080 --> 1:39:06.400
<v Speaker 2>But you know, the thing about what I keep saying

1:39:06.520 --> 1:39:08.360
<v Speaker 2>is that you meet the people you're supposed to. When

1:39:08.400 --> 1:39:11.400
<v Speaker 2>you're supposed to, you have the experiences, the life lessons,

1:39:12.000 --> 1:39:14.800
<v Speaker 2>the tragedies, all the stuff that goes along with all

1:39:14.880 --> 1:39:18.519
<v Speaker 2>the bullshit. We were both He was in a band

1:39:19.120 --> 1:39:22.920
<v Speaker 2>called Dost Dommen, but they had broken up, and he

1:39:23.080 --> 1:39:26.600
<v Speaker 2>was quite the cult figure and very respected within the

1:39:26.720 --> 1:39:32.040
<v Speaker 2>musical community. Dust Doman Thurston Moore Sst. Subpop, you know,

1:39:32.160 --> 1:39:36.400
<v Speaker 2>they they were quite the darlings of that sonic youth

1:39:36.960 --> 1:39:42.200
<v Speaker 2>smashing pumpkins, you know, that whole crowd, and he was

1:39:42.360 --> 1:39:45.040
<v Speaker 2>he was in a new band, and we were both

1:39:45.200 --> 1:39:49.000
<v Speaker 2>playing the Christmas party. Both of our bands were playing

1:39:49.040 --> 1:39:53.000
<v Speaker 2>the same Christmas party at the Continental, and we sort

1:39:53.040 --> 1:39:55.040
<v Speaker 2>of got a look at each other that night, and

1:39:56.200 --> 1:39:59.080
<v Speaker 2>it's and I thought to myself, how come I've never

1:39:59.160 --> 1:40:02.280
<v Speaker 2>seen him before? I mean, I noticed him, So I

1:40:02.400 --> 1:40:05.240
<v Speaker 2>told Hilly Crystal. Hilly Crystal was like my father at

1:40:05.320 --> 1:40:07.880
<v Speaker 2>the time, and I remember going down to Sebe's and

1:40:07.960 --> 1:40:10.120
<v Speaker 2>sitting with him at the desk and telling him all

1:40:10.120 --> 1:40:12.679
<v Speaker 2>about this guy that I had seen across the room

1:40:12.920 --> 1:40:16.479
<v Speaker 2>and I felt something for him, and it was so weird,

1:40:16.600 --> 1:40:19.200
<v Speaker 2>And how come I've never met him before. He's known

1:40:19.320 --> 1:40:23.440
<v Speaker 2>Jesse Mallin since he was fifteen. He went to NYU

1:40:23.760 --> 1:40:27.679
<v Speaker 2>with Rick Rubin. He grew up in Rutherford, New Jersey.

1:40:28.000 --> 1:40:32.120
<v Speaker 2>How Come I've not met this guy? And Hilly was like, oh,

1:40:32.280 --> 1:40:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. He's pretty fabulous. He's one of the

1:40:35.080 --> 1:40:38.080
<v Speaker 2>nicest guys I've ever met. Hilly knew exactly who he was,

1:40:39.360 --> 1:40:42.200
<v Speaker 2>So I'm home. I lived on Mercer Street at that point.

1:40:42.760 --> 1:40:46.000
<v Speaker 2>I lived on Mercer and Broadway, three hundred Mercer that

1:40:46.439 --> 1:40:51.080
<v Speaker 2>building and my phone rang and it was Hilly calling

1:40:51.160 --> 1:40:56.040
<v Speaker 2>me from CBGB's and Hilly goes, Boebe get down here.

1:40:56.200 --> 1:40:59.080
<v Speaker 2>I literally had five minutes from Sebe's. I go, why

1:40:59.160 --> 1:41:01.800
<v Speaker 2>what's going on? He goes, you know that guy, you like,

1:41:02.800 --> 1:41:05.200
<v Speaker 2>the one that you talked my head off about. He's

1:41:05.280 --> 1:41:08.200
<v Speaker 2>here right now and he's gonna be going on in

1:41:08.280 --> 1:41:13.519
<v Speaker 2>about forty five minutes. He's in the club as Hilly,

1:41:14.200 --> 1:41:19.120
<v Speaker 2>and so I think, So, of course, I just I

1:41:19.280 --> 1:41:22.000
<v Speaker 2>was already in my pajamas, and I threw on some

1:41:22.280 --> 1:41:25.160
<v Speaker 2>jeans and a T shirt and a pink puffer coat,

1:41:25.280 --> 1:41:29.320
<v Speaker 2>and I went down there and I just you know,

1:41:29.439 --> 1:41:37.200
<v Speaker 2>we met and we sort of we sort of clicked,

1:41:37.320 --> 1:41:41.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, and he went off that night after his gig,

1:41:41.960 --> 1:41:44.400
<v Speaker 2>and I thought, I'm niable I ever see him again,

1:41:44.520 --> 1:41:48.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, I didn't know, And and then it was

1:41:48.600 --> 1:41:53.639
<v Speaker 2>shortly after that that I went. It was really funny.

1:41:53.680 --> 1:41:56.240
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't gonna go there, you know, I was going

1:41:56.320 --> 1:41:59.120
<v Speaker 2>to stop into the Continental because I wanted to talk

1:41:59.200 --> 1:42:03.000
<v Speaker 2>to Trigger about gig. So I went into the Continental

1:42:03.400 --> 1:42:07.920
<v Speaker 2>and I look up and they're literally on stage. This

1:42:08.200 --> 1:42:15.559
<v Speaker 2>boy now my husband man. And so I invited him

1:42:15.560 --> 1:42:18.120
<v Speaker 2>over to my apartment because I literally lived across the

1:42:18.479 --> 1:42:22.680
<v Speaker 2>you know Continental, CBS my apartment. I invited him over,

1:42:23.160 --> 1:42:26.920
<v Speaker 2>and it's like he says, we were never a part

1:42:27.000 --> 1:42:31.400
<v Speaker 2>a day after that. We didn't consummate our relationship right away.

1:42:31.479 --> 1:42:34.960
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't like we jumped into each other's arms. We courted,

1:42:35.320 --> 1:42:38.519
<v Speaker 2>we did all the old fashioned stuff. We dated, We courted,

1:42:39.400 --> 1:42:42.120
<v Speaker 2>and we fell in love, and he asked me to

1:42:42.200 --> 1:42:47.000
<v Speaker 2>marry him on one knee in Atlantic City. We went

1:42:47.040 --> 1:42:48.960
<v Speaker 2>to Atlantic City to get away for the weekend. He

1:42:49.000 --> 1:42:52.920
<v Speaker 2>asked me to marry him, and then, you know, it

1:42:53.080 --> 1:42:56.800
<v Speaker 2>was nine to eleven sort of changed people's headspace about

1:42:56.920 --> 1:43:01.400
<v Speaker 2>New York. And so we moved to Maine because my

1:43:01.479 --> 1:43:05.400
<v Speaker 2>family is up there now, including my mother, my mother

1:43:05.439 --> 1:43:11.040
<v Speaker 2>who raised me in Virginia in North Carolina. So we

1:43:12.680 --> 1:43:17.559
<v Speaker 2>spent a few years there, and my book came out

1:43:17.640 --> 1:43:21.839
<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and one, right before nine to eleven,

1:43:22.040 --> 1:43:26.560
<v Speaker 2>which was terrible because the whole book tour I was

1:43:26.640 --> 1:43:32.080
<v Speaker 2>doing and everything got canceled, of course, because understandably it

1:43:32.200 --> 1:43:35.680
<v Speaker 2>was a horrible situation nine to eleven, as we can

1:43:35.760 --> 1:43:40.200
<v Speaker 2>all remember. And so we got married in two thousand

1:43:40.240 --> 1:43:46.280
<v Speaker 2>and two after being engaged for about a year, and

1:43:46.560 --> 1:43:49.680
<v Speaker 2>we've been together ever since. I've never been happier. I

1:43:49.760 --> 1:43:56.400
<v Speaker 2>have never felt more safe. Is that a bad word

1:43:56.479 --> 1:44:01.400
<v Speaker 2>to use? We said, but I feel feels safe. And

1:44:01.560 --> 1:44:04.080
<v Speaker 2>my husband has an amazing work ethic. He has a

1:44:04.160 --> 1:44:08.000
<v Speaker 2>great job. You know, he works hard, and we both

1:44:08.160 --> 1:44:11.479
<v Speaker 2>we both were both just hard workers. You know, I

1:44:11.640 --> 1:44:18.400
<v Speaker 2>I everything. I take everything seriously, even cleaning my house.

1:44:18.760 --> 1:44:21.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, I take that very seriously, my floors. I

1:44:21.960 --> 1:44:24.920
<v Speaker 2>like cleaning my own house. I like cleaning my floors.

1:44:25.000 --> 1:44:28.679
<v Speaker 2>I like cleaning my bathroom. I like cooking beautiful meals.

1:44:29.600 --> 1:44:32.800
<v Speaker 2>I like being there for my friends. You know. I

1:44:32.960 --> 1:44:36.760
<v Speaker 2>love doing the creative consultant work because I can do

1:44:36.920 --> 1:44:41.160
<v Speaker 2>it sort of undercover. Nobody has to even know that

1:44:41.240 --> 1:44:41.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing it.

1:44:42.840 --> 1:44:48.479
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I'm talking to you now. You were a model.

1:44:48.960 --> 1:44:53.240
<v Speaker 1>You don't appear to have any plastic surgery. How do

1:44:53.360 --> 1:44:56.640
<v Speaker 1>you feel about being an older woman in society.

1:44:57.520 --> 1:45:00.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've had a little bit of plastic surgery. I'm

1:45:00.160 --> 1:45:03.000
<v Speaker 2>not going to say that I've never gotten any botox

1:45:03.200 --> 1:45:05.720
<v Speaker 2>or I didn't get a tweak here and there. But

1:45:06.000 --> 1:45:09.160
<v Speaker 2>I did all that stuff a long time ago. I

1:45:09.320 --> 1:45:12.960
<v Speaker 2>did that when I was in my forties because that

1:45:13.200 --> 1:45:16.240
<v Speaker 2>was when I still felt insecure. You know, about who

1:45:16.360 --> 1:45:19.800
<v Speaker 2>I was. I don't think I really came into me

1:45:20.520 --> 1:45:24.519
<v Speaker 2>until I was in my fifties and I just started

1:45:24.560 --> 1:45:27.719
<v Speaker 2>to not care anymore. So if I start to droop

1:45:27.760 --> 1:45:32.439
<v Speaker 2>a little or I'm okay with that, it doesn't scare me.

1:45:34.720 --> 1:45:36.600
<v Speaker 2>It might have scared me when I was younger, but

1:45:36.680 --> 1:45:40.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure for what kind of reasons. Because I

1:45:40.880 --> 1:45:44.840
<v Speaker 2>feel like whatever changes we go through physically, we're all

1:45:44.920 --> 1:45:48.160
<v Speaker 2>in the same boat. We're all just walking each other home.

1:45:48.360 --> 1:45:51.600
<v Speaker 2>Everybody's going to die, and everybody's going to get a

1:45:51.680 --> 1:45:53.840
<v Speaker 2>droopy face, you know. I mean, it's just going to

1:45:53.880 --> 1:45:56.560
<v Speaker 2>happen to all of us. So it's what we do

1:45:57.200 --> 1:46:00.120
<v Speaker 2>with the time that we've got. And right now, with

1:46:00.240 --> 1:46:03.439
<v Speaker 2>the time that I've got, I want to let not

1:46:03.720 --> 1:46:08.000
<v Speaker 2>just women but men. I want all humans, people that

1:46:08.120 --> 1:46:12.360
<v Speaker 2>identify as both men and women, people that identify as nothing.

1:46:13.200 --> 1:46:16.320
<v Speaker 2>I want everybody to know that none of that should

1:46:16.360 --> 1:46:18.760
<v Speaker 2>stop you from doing what you do, none of it

1:46:19.600 --> 1:46:23.200
<v Speaker 2>whatever brings you happiness. I sound like a meme, I

1:46:23.280 --> 1:46:27.479
<v Speaker 2>sound like one of those Facebook affirmations or something, but

1:46:29.040 --> 1:46:33.240
<v Speaker 2>it's true. I feel like I'm much more beneficial to

1:46:33.400 --> 1:46:37.439
<v Speaker 2>women now at my age because I can actually say,

1:46:38.960 --> 1:46:41.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm not going to say that was a

1:46:41.360 --> 1:46:45.720
<v Speaker 2>bad choice or a good choice. You know, people go, oh,

1:46:46.040 --> 1:46:48.200
<v Speaker 2>don't you wish you had married this guy? And don't

1:46:48.200 --> 1:46:50.080
<v Speaker 2>you wish you had done this? And don't you wish

1:46:50.120 --> 1:46:53.479
<v Speaker 2>you had had more children? And well, of course sometimes

1:46:53.520 --> 1:46:57.040
<v Speaker 2>I think about stuff like that, but I don't dwell

1:46:57.160 --> 1:47:01.519
<v Speaker 2>on it. I've learned how to discipline myself. And as

1:47:01.600 --> 1:47:04.559
<v Speaker 2>Tina would say, not your renguaekio, no, your ranguae kill.

1:47:05.360 --> 1:47:10.680
<v Speaker 2>That helps. Chanting really helps you to focus. You know,

1:47:11.640 --> 1:47:16.960
<v Speaker 2>you don't even understand why, but I have to focus

1:47:17.520 --> 1:47:22.360
<v Speaker 2>on bringing as much positivity, not just to myself but

1:47:22.479 --> 1:47:24.439
<v Speaker 2>to others. That's important to me.

1:47:24.800 --> 1:47:28.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's go back to your more renegade years when

1:47:28.760 --> 1:47:32.960
<v Speaker 1>you weren't married. A lot of rock stars you see

1:47:33.000 --> 1:47:36.759
<v Speaker 1>them with women, and the women are perceived as eye candy.

1:47:37.400 --> 1:47:40.280
<v Speaker 1>I've certainly been around somewhere that has been the case.

1:47:41.040 --> 1:47:45.040
<v Speaker 1>Needless to say, you are a very verbal woman, so

1:47:46.160 --> 1:47:48.720
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of these you know, unfortunately a lot

1:47:48.760 --> 1:47:50.559
<v Speaker 1>of these rock stars speak through their music. They don't

1:47:50.560 --> 1:47:52.479
<v Speaker 1>have much to say, but that certainly is not all

1:47:52.560 --> 1:47:56.400
<v Speaker 1>of them. So you mention all of these iconic people,

1:47:57.400 --> 1:48:02.599
<v Speaker 1>did they pursue you or were you constantly putting yourself

1:48:02.640 --> 1:48:03.040
<v Speaker 1>out there?

1:48:04.680 --> 1:48:08.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't know how to put I was

1:48:08.840 --> 1:48:11.880
<v Speaker 2>living the life that I was living. I was living

1:48:11.920 --> 1:48:14.040
<v Speaker 2>the life of the girlfriend of a rock star. So

1:48:14.120 --> 1:48:17.040
<v Speaker 2>of course you get invited to all the parties. I mean,

1:48:17.160 --> 1:48:20.640
<v Speaker 2>everything that happens, you get invitations. I mean Todd and

1:48:20.680 --> 1:48:23.920
<v Speaker 2>I used to get invitations delivered to our doors by courier.

1:48:24.760 --> 1:48:28.360
<v Speaker 2>And Liz Dringer was my best friend, and she was

1:48:28.479 --> 1:48:31.280
<v Speaker 2>married to Rick Derringer, and she was a journalist and

1:48:31.439 --> 1:48:35.040
<v Speaker 2>she was really plugged into the scene. Ron Delsner was

1:48:35.120 --> 1:48:39.160
<v Speaker 2>our best friend, and whenever there was a great show,

1:48:40.160 --> 1:48:43.240
<v Speaker 2>Ron would call and say, you're on the list, meet

1:48:43.320 --> 1:48:46.600
<v Speaker 2>me backstage at eight fifteen or whatever. You know, we

1:48:46.720 --> 1:48:51.920
<v Speaker 2>were living the lifestyle, and through living the lifestyle, a

1:48:52.040 --> 1:48:59.360
<v Speaker 2>lot of relationships were formed and made. It's really it's

1:48:59.439 --> 1:49:02.280
<v Speaker 2>not something you can plan, because.

1:49:02.800 --> 1:49:06.000
<v Speaker 1>It's certainly not something to planned. You were in the area,

1:49:06.160 --> 1:49:08.519
<v Speaker 1>But you have recited a litany and I don't mean

1:49:08.560 --> 1:49:13.160
<v Speaker 1>that in any negative sense of household names. Right, So

1:49:14.080 --> 1:49:17.519
<v Speaker 1>did they hear you were available or did you run

1:49:17.640 --> 1:49:20.719
<v Speaker 1>into them and say, hey, I would be pursued.

1:49:21.000 --> 1:49:24.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean of course Mick Jagger. He pursues when when

1:49:24.160 --> 1:49:28.200
<v Speaker 2>Mick wants to date you, he he brings out all

1:49:28.280 --> 1:49:31.960
<v Speaker 2>the bells and whistles. It's it's it's very charming, and

1:49:32.160 --> 1:49:37.160
<v Speaker 2>he's notoriously Mick. And you know, I dated Jack Nicholson,

1:49:37.400 --> 1:49:41.600
<v Speaker 2>So I've been with some of the great flirts, the

1:49:41.720 --> 1:49:47.760
<v Speaker 2>great Don Juan's of history. I've done that, and I

1:49:47.880 --> 1:49:51.639
<v Speaker 2>don't regret it for one minute. You know, dating Jack

1:49:52.520 --> 1:49:54.920
<v Speaker 2>was never I knew it was never going to be serious.

1:49:55.120 --> 1:49:59.120
<v Speaker 2>I knew that, but I enjoyed his company so much.

1:49:59.280 --> 1:50:02.200
<v Speaker 2>We had so much much fun together. We would just

1:50:02.360 --> 1:50:06.639
<v Speaker 2>drive around, you know, he loved to He would show

1:50:06.720 --> 1:50:09.000
<v Speaker 2>up when I would be in la He had this

1:50:09.640 --> 1:50:13.400
<v Speaker 2>white Volkswagen that he had for his entire life. It

1:50:13.520 --> 1:50:15.400
<v Speaker 2>was and I wouldn't say it was beat up, but

1:50:15.479 --> 1:50:18.360
<v Speaker 2>it was an old Volkswagen that he would drive around

1:50:18.439 --> 1:50:21.439
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood when he wanted to be undercover. And one time

1:50:21.520 --> 1:50:24.160
<v Speaker 2>I was staying in Laurel Canyon with my girlfriend Pam,

1:50:24.520 --> 1:50:28.200
<v Speaker 2>and his house was over on Mallholland, and he showed

1:50:28.280 --> 1:50:32.120
<v Speaker 2>up at Pam's in the white Volkswagen. And I'll just

1:50:32.280 --> 1:50:34.720
<v Speaker 2>never forget him getting out of the car. With a

1:50:34.800 --> 1:50:38.760
<v Speaker 2>white Volkswagen with some flowers that he had picked and

1:50:39.800 --> 1:50:45.439
<v Speaker 2>wild of course, and just being I introduced him to

1:50:45.600 --> 1:50:48.479
<v Speaker 2>Pam and he was just so polite. He used to

1:50:48.560 --> 1:50:50.920
<v Speaker 2>call my mother. He used to talk to my mother

1:50:51.080 --> 1:50:55.040
<v Speaker 2>on the phone. And Warren Beattie, who I never even met.

1:50:55.439 --> 1:50:57.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean when I say never met, I never met

1:50:57.960 --> 1:51:01.000
<v Speaker 2>him under the sheets, is what I'm trying. I never

1:51:01.160 --> 1:51:04.160
<v Speaker 2>dated Warren Beatty, even though he always gets listed as

1:51:04.200 --> 1:51:06.920
<v Speaker 2>one of my boyfriends. But I think the reason why

1:51:07.120 --> 1:51:09.680
<v Speaker 2>is because he and Jack were such good friends, and

1:51:09.760 --> 1:51:11.439
<v Speaker 2>I hung out with both of them quite a bit

1:51:12.360 --> 1:51:16.040
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of times over at Warren's house, and

1:51:16.200 --> 1:51:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Warren was an amazing piano player. I remember the very

1:51:19.360 --> 1:51:23.120
<v Speaker 2>first time I met Warren Beatty. Jack brought me over

1:51:23.200 --> 1:51:26.320
<v Speaker 2>there and when we walked into the room, Warren was

1:51:26.400 --> 1:51:33.040
<v Speaker 2>sitting behind the piano playing unbelievably. I was shocked. Who

1:51:33.080 --> 1:51:36.080
<v Speaker 2>would have ever known? But he was an exquisite piano player.

1:51:37.080 --> 1:51:41.400
<v Speaker 2>But no, I didn't date him, and I just I

1:51:41.760 --> 1:51:45.799
<v Speaker 2>enjoy the company of like minded people.

1:51:46.160 --> 1:51:48.320
<v Speaker 1>I I'm not just ask you then, because a lot

1:51:48.360 --> 1:51:51.759
<v Speaker 1>of these people I don't mean specifically, but rock stars,

1:51:51.840 --> 1:51:56.320
<v Speaker 1>movie stars are very narcissistic. Oh god, did they listen

1:51:56.400 --> 1:51:58.760
<v Speaker 1>to you? Did they want to engage in you? Did

1:51:58.800 --> 1:52:00.479
<v Speaker 1>they want to hear what you had to say?

1:52:00.800 --> 1:52:04.439
<v Speaker 2>Of course, yes, very much so. As a matter of fact, Jack,

1:52:05.400 --> 1:52:07.960
<v Speaker 2>when I was, you know, going through the big transition

1:52:08.880 --> 1:52:11.559
<v Speaker 2>in eighty eighty one where I was forming a band

1:52:11.680 --> 1:52:16.560
<v Speaker 2>and living in my family's cottage on the family compound,

1:52:17.760 --> 1:52:21.080
<v Speaker 2>and when I was trying to get the band together,

1:52:21.680 --> 1:52:24.040
<v Speaker 2>he would listen to all my demos and it was

1:52:24.160 --> 1:52:28.240
<v Speaker 2>constantly supportive and really really, really nice. And he even

1:52:28.720 --> 1:52:31.880
<v Speaker 2>offered one time to buy me a house. He said,

1:52:31.960 --> 1:52:35.040
<v Speaker 2>let me help you buy a house. He was like,

1:52:35.320 --> 1:52:38.519
<v Speaker 2>let me give you some stability, and he goes, I'd

1:52:38.600 --> 1:52:40.519
<v Speaker 2>like to help you, and I was like, no, I'm

1:52:40.560 --> 1:52:42.640
<v Speaker 2>not going to let you do that. I mean, I

1:52:42.720 --> 1:52:44.920
<v Speaker 2>look back on it now and thinking was I crazy?

1:52:45.080 --> 1:52:51.000
<v Speaker 1>But you know it just okay at this point in time,

1:52:52.040 --> 1:52:54.800
<v Speaker 1>to what degree do you interact with all these people

1:52:55.080 --> 1:52:58.719
<v Speaker 1>famous and not known from your earlier days?

1:52:59.280 --> 1:53:01.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, Well, you know, the only time I

1:53:01.400 --> 1:53:04.280
<v Speaker 2>see people like Mick and stuff is when they play

1:53:05.320 --> 1:53:07.720
<v Speaker 2>I've gone to both of the times the Stones have

1:53:07.800 --> 1:53:12.439
<v Speaker 2>played Nashville, and but no, we're all living very different

1:53:12.520 --> 1:53:16.320
<v Speaker 2>lives now. Bowie, of course, you know, passed away. So

1:53:16.760 --> 1:53:20.080
<v Speaker 2>but he came to my daughter's first wedding, and and

1:53:20.760 --> 1:53:24.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, we socialized. We would see each other at

1:53:24.360 --> 1:53:29.600
<v Speaker 2>various events. But half the people that I used to

1:53:29.680 --> 1:53:32.800
<v Speaker 2>hang out with are no longer alive. Most of them

1:53:32.840 --> 1:53:38.439
<v Speaker 2>are gone. And and and you know a lot of people.

1:53:38.680 --> 1:53:40.639
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I see my daughter's father a lot.

1:53:40.840 --> 1:53:47.080
<v Speaker 2>He brought me up on stage when he played FONTANELLEH gosh,

1:53:47.520 --> 1:53:50.240
<v Speaker 2>I'll have to send you a little iPhone video of this.

1:53:50.400 --> 1:53:51.559
<v Speaker 2>I think you'll get a kick.

1:53:51.400 --> 1:53:51.720
<v Speaker 1>Out of it.

1:53:52.240 --> 1:53:54.519
<v Speaker 2>We did train kept a rolling together in front of

1:53:54.600 --> 1:53:59.400
<v Speaker 2>thirty thousand people. So, you know, I run into people.

1:54:00.280 --> 1:54:03.320
<v Speaker 2>I live in Nashville, so of course I you know,

1:54:03.400 --> 1:54:06.280
<v Speaker 2>I run into people and recording studios now and then

1:54:06.400 --> 1:54:09.720
<v Speaker 2>I see people here and there, Robert Plant over at

1:54:09.800 --> 1:54:13.360
<v Speaker 2>Sound Emporium or but you know, everybody is always So

1:54:13.520 --> 1:54:16.960
<v Speaker 2>I see Jules holland you know, we're still very good friends.

1:54:17.200 --> 1:54:20.519
<v Speaker 2>And I talked to Clive Arrowsmith quite a bit. And

1:54:21.200 --> 1:54:25.080
<v Speaker 2>I you know, I've kept most of my friendships. The

1:54:25.240 --> 1:54:30.280
<v Speaker 2>only estrangements that I have, which is very strange, are

1:54:30.400 --> 1:54:33.520
<v Speaker 2>with two of the most important relationships of my life,

1:54:34.440 --> 1:54:40.200
<v Speaker 2>and I guess those were the guys I hurt the hardest.

1:54:40.640 --> 1:54:45.000
<v Speaker 2>I are. That's Todd and Elvis and.

1:54:46.800 --> 1:54:51.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's switch gears very briefly give me the rap

1:54:51.240 --> 1:54:52.680
<v Speaker 1>on the aliens.

1:54:55.000 --> 1:55:00.280
<v Speaker 2>Well as I just believe that. Oh it's if I'm

1:55:00.280 --> 1:55:03.480
<v Speaker 2>going to put it into synopsis format, I would have

1:55:03.600 --> 1:55:05.360
<v Speaker 2>to say that I believe that we live in a

1:55:05.440 --> 1:55:09.120
<v Speaker 2>multi dimensional universe, that we are present in a three

1:55:09.200 --> 1:55:12.880
<v Speaker 2>dimensional world, but I feel like we're getting ready to

1:55:12.960 --> 1:55:16.440
<v Speaker 2>move into a five D existence on our planet. I

1:55:16.480 --> 1:55:20.040
<v Speaker 2>don't think we have a choice because if we don't

1:55:20.240 --> 1:55:23.240
<v Speaker 2>stop what's happening now, the planet is not going to

1:55:23.360 --> 1:55:26.520
<v Speaker 2>exist anymore and we're all going to be dead. So

1:55:27.880 --> 1:55:30.280
<v Speaker 2>we have to move into a five D consciousness. And

1:55:30.400 --> 1:55:36.240
<v Speaker 2>what is D five D's two above three. It's a

1:55:36.400 --> 1:55:42.480
<v Speaker 2>deeper it's a deeper understanding that these are our bodies,

1:55:42.840 --> 1:55:49.720
<v Speaker 2>but our souls and our consciousness are much bigger, and

1:55:50.320 --> 1:55:54.400
<v Speaker 2>that I believe we do this many times. I believe

1:55:54.520 --> 1:56:00.120
<v Speaker 2>that I believe that the soul travels many lifetimes and

1:56:00.240 --> 1:56:04.960
<v Speaker 2>inhabits many bodies, and goes through many experiences. As far

1:56:05.040 --> 1:56:09.520
<v Speaker 2>as aliens go, I believe in the multi dimensional aspect

1:56:09.600 --> 1:56:15.480
<v Speaker 2>of our existence. I believe that people can come in

1:56:15.640 --> 1:56:22.040
<v Speaker 2>and out. I believe that there's more sophisticated life forms

1:56:22.120 --> 1:56:27.840
<v Speaker 2>and consciousness. So I'm just trying to keep myself elevated

1:56:27.920 --> 1:56:33.960
<v Speaker 2>and open to the metaphysical aspect of the creation of

1:56:34.040 --> 1:56:37.640
<v Speaker 2>our planet, the creation of the universe. You know, you

1:56:37.680 --> 1:56:40.760
<v Speaker 2>can drive yourself nuts going where did it start? Where

1:56:40.800 --> 1:56:44.360
<v Speaker 2>did it the Big bang? Okay, who did the Big bang?

1:56:45.200 --> 1:56:48.200
<v Speaker 2>Who invented that? And how do you know that the

1:56:48.360 --> 1:56:52.880
<v Speaker 2>universe is expanding? Okay? We know that? Why? I mean,

1:56:52.920 --> 1:56:56.080
<v Speaker 2>you can go crazy asking yourself all these questions. So

1:56:56.200 --> 1:57:01.400
<v Speaker 2>the way I've decided that I can internalize it and

1:57:01.560 --> 1:57:04.440
<v Speaker 2>understand it the best is to just think there is

1:57:04.600 --> 1:57:07.560
<v Speaker 2>no beginning, there is no end, there is no time.

1:57:08.200 --> 1:57:14.280
<v Speaker 2>There's dimensions, and there's textures, and there's layers, and I

1:57:14.440 --> 1:57:16.000
<v Speaker 2>believe that we can go in and out.

1:57:16.920 --> 1:57:21.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, but have you you haven't seen little green men or.

1:57:24.560 --> 1:57:26.520
<v Speaker 2>They? Well, the ones I met were gray?

1:57:27.520 --> 1:57:29.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, how you met them?

1:57:29.520 --> 1:57:29.760
<v Speaker 2>Where?

1:57:29.800 --> 1:57:30.200
<v Speaker 1>And when?

1:57:30.960 --> 1:57:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's it's really this is this would take up

1:57:34.440 --> 1:57:37.560
<v Speaker 2>an entire one of them. Okay, just a couple, all right.

1:57:38.360 --> 1:57:43.840
<v Speaker 2>When I I've been having experiences with orbs or light

1:57:44.720 --> 1:57:47.800
<v Speaker 2>since I was very young. One of my earliest memories

1:57:47.880 --> 1:57:54.440
<v Speaker 2>in my crib is of these bouncing lights around my

1:57:54.560 --> 1:57:59.120
<v Speaker 2>crib and I could sort of they would come when

1:57:59.160 --> 1:58:02.240
<v Speaker 2>I wanted them to come, and they would. I thought

1:58:02.280 --> 1:58:04.320
<v Speaker 2>they were playing with me. I thought they were toys.

1:58:04.400 --> 1:58:06.680
<v Speaker 2>And I would tell my mother that I loved the

1:58:06.880 --> 1:58:09.880
<v Speaker 2>lights that would come to see me, that the lights

1:58:09.960 --> 1:58:12.480
<v Speaker 2>were fun. Thanks, you know, Mommy, I love those lights,

1:58:12.640 --> 1:58:16.680
<v Speaker 2>you know. And there were and of course you didn't

1:58:16.680 --> 1:58:20.480
<v Speaker 2>give me any lights maybe a night light. But I've

1:58:20.520 --> 1:58:27.320
<v Speaker 2>always felt connected to something. I've had some experiences that

1:58:28.240 --> 1:58:32.320
<v Speaker 2>cannot be explained at all. Like one time I was

1:58:32.360 --> 1:58:36.000
<v Speaker 2>in a car with my girlfriend, a Volkswagen. We were

1:58:36.120 --> 1:58:38.800
<v Speaker 2>high out of our brains. I'm not proud of this moment.

1:58:38.920 --> 1:58:44.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm not bragging or anything. We were driving, I was seventeen,

1:58:45.280 --> 1:58:50.920
<v Speaker 2>sixteen or seventeen, and we're driving along. This is in Jacksonville,

1:58:51.000 --> 1:58:53.880
<v Speaker 2>North Carolina, when my father was stepfather was stationed at

1:58:53.880 --> 1:58:57.120
<v Speaker 2>Camp La June, and I was getting ready to go

1:58:57.240 --> 1:59:00.520
<v Speaker 2>into the next lane. I was being frivolous and free,

1:59:01.760 --> 1:59:05.880
<v Speaker 2>and literally a voice and I am not exaggerating, said

1:59:07.640 --> 1:59:14.200
<v Speaker 2>don't go left. Very clearly and very loudly. And when

1:59:14.240 --> 1:59:17.280
<v Speaker 2>I turned my head like this, there was a giant

1:59:17.440 --> 1:59:22.040
<v Speaker 2>semitruck coming And if I had gone like that, I

1:59:22.080 --> 1:59:24.000
<v Speaker 2>would have been pulverized.

1:59:24.840 --> 1:59:30.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, you are here, and you're a fountain of amazing stories.

1:59:30.880 --> 1:59:33.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't know anybody who has as many

1:59:34.040 --> 1:59:39.920
<v Speaker 1>stories as you, with so many famous people. And you

1:59:40.160 --> 1:59:44.480
<v Speaker 1>have a new book, Rebel Soul, which is photographs of

1:59:44.560 --> 1:59:47.760
<v Speaker 1>you throughout your life, but also essays of your belief

1:59:47.920 --> 1:59:50.760
<v Speaker 1>We'll have one more topic and then we'll go. You

1:59:50.880 --> 1:59:52.760
<v Speaker 1>make a big point in the book that you're not

1:59:52.920 --> 1:59:56.360
<v Speaker 1>a groupie. Why focus on that so much?

1:59:57.080 --> 2:00:01.680
<v Speaker 2>The word groupie? It's just gotten soiled, you know, like

2:00:02.760 --> 2:00:06.800
<v Speaker 2>there's certain words. I know they're just words, But you

2:00:06.920 --> 2:00:12.040
<v Speaker 2>don't want to be defined as somebody that when you're

2:00:12.160 --> 2:00:15.080
<v Speaker 2>when you're an entertainer yourself, when you when you go

2:00:15.240 --> 2:00:18.080
<v Speaker 2>on stage and you make people happy and you sing

2:00:18.240 --> 2:00:20.800
<v Speaker 2>for people, you don't want to be known as just

2:00:20.920 --> 2:00:24.560
<v Speaker 2>the person that that Google goggles over the other people.

2:00:25.360 --> 2:00:28.160
<v Speaker 2>I just think that the word is misunderstood. I think

2:00:28.240 --> 2:00:32.360
<v Speaker 2>that it's been tainted to the point where it's become

2:00:32.520 --> 2:00:35.320
<v Speaker 2>sexist in a lot of ways. Because I don't see

2:00:35.320 --> 2:00:42.000
<v Speaker 2>it used to define men ever, and I I just

2:00:42.280 --> 2:00:44.640
<v Speaker 2>at this point in my life. I've been married forever,

2:00:46.280 --> 2:00:49.240
<v Speaker 2>and I consider myself a nurturer and a healer and

2:00:49.320 --> 2:00:54.800
<v Speaker 2>a person that loves to give. I'm just not in

2:00:54.920 --> 2:01:00.680
<v Speaker 2>a comfortable place where i can deal with being tagged labeled.

2:01:01.600 --> 2:01:02.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be like a cow with a

2:01:03.040 --> 2:01:07.080
<v Speaker 2>tag on my ear. Oh that girl is a groupie,

2:01:07.520 --> 2:01:09.880
<v Speaker 2>you know. I want to be known for many things.

2:01:11.120 --> 2:01:14.480
<v Speaker 2>I'd rather be known as a historian and a storyteller

2:01:15.480 --> 2:01:18.480
<v Speaker 2>and the original Alice in Wonderland who fell through the

2:01:18.560 --> 2:01:22.480
<v Speaker 2>looking glass. I'd rather be known as a person that

2:01:23.800 --> 2:01:28.080
<v Speaker 2>lived an extraordinary life, and I hope that I would

2:01:28.120 --> 2:01:31.240
<v Speaker 2>love my life. I would love to see a series,

2:01:31.440 --> 2:01:35.840
<v Speaker 2>because there are too many stories just for one documentary

2:01:36.280 --> 2:01:39.160
<v Speaker 2>or for one movie. I know that there's ideas that

2:01:39.240 --> 2:01:42.560
<v Speaker 2>people are having right now to do a documentary or

2:01:42.600 --> 2:01:47.040
<v Speaker 2>a movie. But I see a series, I see many episodes.

2:01:47.200 --> 2:01:50.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't see how you The Aliens, for instance, would

2:01:50.120 --> 2:01:54.440
<v Speaker 2>take up one episode. Savador Dolly would take up an episode.

2:01:55.040 --> 2:01:58.880
<v Speaker 2>Tom Petty would take up an episode. Just the experiences

2:01:59.040 --> 2:02:05.520
<v Speaker 2>with these brilliant human beings that I've brushed with, obviously,

2:02:07.440 --> 2:02:10.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, I touched their lives too. We've all touched

2:02:10.680 --> 2:02:14.920
<v Speaker 2>each other's lives, and I want people to realize that

2:02:16.480 --> 2:02:19.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a service dog. If I was a service dog,

2:02:19.960 --> 2:02:22.520
<v Speaker 2>I would proudly say I'm a service dog. I am

2:02:22.600 --> 2:02:26.160
<v Speaker 2>here to service these beautiful rock stars. I'm not a

2:02:26.240 --> 2:02:29.320
<v Speaker 2>service dog. I am a human being that has had

2:02:29.360 --> 2:02:35.840
<v Speaker 2>an extraordinary experience and extraordinary experiences and I don't even

2:02:35.920 --> 2:02:40.040
<v Speaker 2>have the complete formula, nor do I have the complete

2:02:40.120 --> 2:02:45.240
<v Speaker 2>explanation as to why. And hopefully I'll live long enough

2:02:46.400 --> 2:02:50.320
<v Speaker 2>that some of these wonderful experiences can be shared, and

2:02:50.440 --> 2:02:58.000
<v Speaker 2>not just in a little, condensed, tiny thing. I think

2:02:58.040 --> 2:03:01.520
<v Speaker 2>there's so much to life, you know. I think people

2:03:02.040 --> 2:03:04.560
<v Speaker 2>we all know each other for a reason, we all

2:03:04.720 --> 2:03:08.000
<v Speaker 2>connect for a reason. There must have been a reason.

2:03:08.920 --> 2:03:11.520
<v Speaker 2>There has to be the other way around. It's not

2:03:11.800 --> 2:03:15.320
<v Speaker 2>just them being in my life. I was in their

2:03:15.400 --> 2:03:17.560
<v Speaker 2>life too, and you're in.

2:03:17.680 --> 2:03:20.440
<v Speaker 1>The life of many people right now as a result

2:03:20.560 --> 2:03:23.160
<v Speaker 1>of doing this. Maybe I want to thank you so

2:03:23.360 --> 2:03:26.600
<v Speaker 1>much for taking the time to share your life and

2:03:26.720 --> 2:03:27.919
<v Speaker 1>thoughts with my audience.

2:03:28.560 --> 2:03:30.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, I could do another hour with you.

2:03:31.280 --> 2:03:36.560
<v Speaker 2>You're just You're just interesting. I have to be honest,

2:03:36.600 --> 2:03:41.560
<v Speaker 2>I am a fan. My husband religiously reads your newsletter.

2:03:41.800 --> 2:03:44.640
<v Speaker 1>I just want to let you know that, and I'm

2:03:44.680 --> 2:03:45.280
<v Speaker 1>glad you did.

2:03:45.640 --> 2:03:48.320
<v Speaker 2>I like that well, Tick wn Gate, you know, he's

2:03:48.360 --> 2:03:52.800
<v Speaker 2>always been a champion of mine. He wanted to sign

2:03:52.920 --> 2:03:57.800
<v Speaker 2>me way before anybody and eighty one. I should have

2:03:57.840 --> 2:03:59.760
<v Speaker 2>gone with the Wynn Gate. He's still my friend to

2:03:59.840 --> 2:04:06.160
<v Speaker 2>this stay. But you know he he said that he

2:04:06.360 --> 2:04:08.360
<v Speaker 2>was going to ask you, if you know, if I

2:04:08.400 --> 2:04:11.280
<v Speaker 2>could be on your show, and I'm so glad that

2:04:11.360 --> 2:04:13.280
<v Speaker 2>he did. I'm grateful. See what I mean, how we

2:04:13.400 --> 2:04:16.080
<v Speaker 2>all know each other and how it all cross pollinates.

2:04:16.400 --> 2:04:20.600
<v Speaker 2>See to me, Dick Wingate and my old editor at

2:04:20.640 --> 2:04:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Saint Martin's like Elizabeth Byer, those are my rock stars.

2:04:25.960 --> 2:04:29.040
<v Speaker 2>Those are the people that I'm indebted to and that

2:04:29.200 --> 2:04:33.880
<v Speaker 2>I love. Danny Fields, these are my rock stars. These

2:04:33.920 --> 2:04:36.440
<v Speaker 2>are the people that I will love and cherish till

2:04:36.440 --> 2:04:39.160
<v Speaker 2>the day I die, because they're the people that believed

2:04:39.200 --> 2:04:42.640
<v Speaker 2>in me and gave me chances in life, chances to

2:04:42.760 --> 2:04:50.320
<v Speaker 2>do things myself. And there's nothing better than taking over

2:04:50.440 --> 2:04:53.240
<v Speaker 2>a room. I love to be in front of an

2:04:53.280 --> 2:04:57.680
<v Speaker 2>audience with a microphone. I don't even need instruments. I

2:04:57.760 --> 2:05:01.760
<v Speaker 2>don't need anything. I'll sing the whole thing without one

2:05:02.320 --> 2:05:06.600
<v Speaker 2>drop of an instrument. It brings me so much joy.

2:05:07.240 --> 2:05:10.040
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, I'm thrilled and honored. It's an honor to

2:05:10.120 --> 2:05:11.720
<v Speaker 2>be with you, mister Bob.

2:05:12.600 --> 2:05:15.920
<v Speaker 1>I think you and I'm glad I had the chance

2:05:16.040 --> 2:05:20.240
<v Speaker 1>to talk to you. In any event, till next time.

2:05:20.560 --> 2:05:21.920
<v Speaker 1>This is Bob left Sis