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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsnet's podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is the one and only bb Bule. He'd

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Speaker 1: be good to have you on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm honored to be here. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, explain the derivation of your name, Bibi.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was born on Bastiel Day. My father was

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Speaker 2: in Korea and my mother didn't want to give me

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Speaker 2: a name until he got back. I didn't meet him

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Speaker 2: till I was three weeks old, and the nurses called

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Speaker 2: me Bebe because it meant baby in French, and because

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Speaker 2: I was born on Bastiele Day, they thought it was

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Speaker 2: all very French, so I sort of stuck. And then

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Speaker 2: my mother wanted to name me Courtney, and my father liked.

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Speaker 2: My mother didn't like the spelling, so she made it

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Speaker 2: just Beverly with an E. And my middle name is Lawrence,

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Speaker 2: which is after my grandmother, who is Florence. But my

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Speaker 2: mother didn't like the name Florence, so she dropped the F,

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Speaker 2: so I'm Lawrence is my middle name. And then Buell.

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Speaker 2: This is my father's name.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is your stepfather, your birth father.

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Speaker 2: My birth father, But you say it.

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Speaker 1: You say in your book that you never really knew

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Speaker 1: your father.

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Speaker 2: No, I didn't. And it's funny because I never felt

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Speaker 2: that I didn't know him. I just felt like he

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Speaker 2: didn't want to be part of my life. Is basically

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Speaker 2: the way I saw it as a child, and so

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Speaker 2: I think I was always looking for ways to want

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Speaker 2: to be part of his life, but it just didn't

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Speaker 2: work out that way.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So subsequent to your birth, did he and your

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Speaker 1: mother ever live together?

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Speaker 2: Yes? They did. They divorced when I was two years old.

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Speaker 1: So how much contact did you actually have with him?

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Speaker 2: Not much at all. And the last time I saw

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Speaker 2: him was on my fifth birthday, and it was a

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Speaker 2: really interesting thing because they my parents had an argument

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Speaker 2: of some kind and as my father was leaving, this

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Speaker 2: dish hit the wall. My mother had thrown something at him,

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Speaker 2: and I just remember running to the elevator and he

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Speaker 2: got on the elevator and he was dressed, very dashing,

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Speaker 2: and I tried to pull the elevator doors open with

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Speaker 2: my little five year old hands. I didn't want him

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Speaker 2: to leave, and I never saw him again until I

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Speaker 2: was about seven or eight months pregnant with live.

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Speaker 1: And what were the circumstances there. Why did you suddenly

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Speaker 1: see him?

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Speaker 2: Because Todd felt that Todd was pretty certain we were

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Speaker 2: going to have a boy, and I was pretty certain

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Speaker 2: that I was pregnant with a female energy. I sort

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Speaker 2: of knew that and I felt it. But he sort

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Speaker 2: of felt that I had a lot of unfinished stuff

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Speaker 2: with my dad, and he felt that it would be

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Speaker 2: very healthy for me to see my father again before

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Speaker 2: I had a child, even though I was all of

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Speaker 2: twenty three years old, and so Todd had a show

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Speaker 2: in Tallahassee, where my father was living, and I went

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Speaker 2: to that show, uber pregnant, saw my father again for

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Speaker 2: the first time since I was five, and it was interesting,

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Speaker 2: to say the least. I didn't feel unattached to him,

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Speaker 2: and I felt very much like his daughter. We both

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Speaker 2: had the steel blue eyes, and he's tall, and I

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Speaker 2: saw myself, but I didn't really bond with him. And

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Speaker 2: then I didn't see him again until two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 2: I think it was there's a lot of years. My

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Speaker 2: daughters met him once.

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Speaker 1: Okay, why did you meet him again in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and eight.

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Speaker 2: Because I believe it or not, he called me after

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Speaker 2: his wife, Mollie the woman that he married. After he

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Speaker 2: and my mom divorced, he called me and he said

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Speaker 2: that he wanted to see me, and that he said

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Speaker 2: that Mollie's wish was that we would see each other again.

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Speaker 2: And did you I certainly did. Absolutely. I went right

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Speaker 2: to him, and I'm really glad that I did. I

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Speaker 2: got to know him for the last five years of

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Speaker 2: his life. He was almost ninety five when he died,

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Speaker 2: and he was an incredibly great man. I there's a

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Speaker 2: lot about him that I don't identify with, but there's

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Speaker 2: a a lot about him that I do identify with.

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Speaker 2: And he was a heroic pilot. You can read about

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Speaker 2: my father. He wrote a book called Dauntless Hell Divers

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Speaker 2: about being a hell diver pilot in World War Two.

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Speaker 2: He did unbelievable things. And the only pictures I ever

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Speaker 2: saw of him, he was all dressed up in his regalia.

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Speaker 2: And people wonder why I'm drawn to people that are

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Speaker 2: sort of regal in their stance or spiffy in their dress,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: So when you connected with him, yeah, you know, like

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Speaker 1: people you read all about these people, they share genes,

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Speaker 1: but they never knew each other, but they get together

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Speaker 1: and they see similarities. Did you see similarities?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, it was incredible, It was incredible. We

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Speaker 2: have the same laugh and he even has a little

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Speaker 2: lisp like I do. But mine I tried to control

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Speaker 2: most my life. But his height, his he had very

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Speaker 2: long legs and he was lanky, and yeah, and I

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Speaker 2: just I felt like I was meeting somebody that I

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Speaker 2: should know better. But what do you do about that?

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Speaker 2: You really can't change what your destiny is. It was

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Speaker 2: my destiny to have this kind of dynamic. I was,

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Speaker 2: you know, obviously there's a lesson for me in this life,

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Speaker 2: and it has a lot to do with men and

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Speaker 2: father and the importance of acceptance and and wanting to

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Speaker 2: be loved.

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Speaker 1: Okay, just before we get there, do you have any

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Speaker 1: step siblings?

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Speaker 2: Well, I sort of have a step sibling when my

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Speaker 2: father remarried Mollie, who I adored by the way she

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Speaker 2: was like him. They were free thinkers, very artistic. My

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Speaker 2: father wrote, he wrote two books, and she was an

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Speaker 2: artist and she could draw, and they were very bohemian.

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Speaker 2: They had their martinis at six and you know the

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Speaker 2: whole bit.

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Speaker 1: And until Molly came with a child, Yes.

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Speaker 2: She came with two. She came with Cheryl and a

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Speaker 2: son who had of all names Happy. His name was

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Speaker 2: Happy and they called him Hap And I just remember thinking,

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Speaker 2: you know, names come in all sizes, like mine was

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Speaker 2: an unusual name. Growing up, people thought Bibie was a

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Speaker 2: weird name. I never went by Beverly, so yes, she

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Speaker 2: came so I happy. I never really got to know Cheryl,

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Speaker 2: only a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But okay, let's talk about your relationship with men, because

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Speaker 1: on some level you're famous because of your relationships with

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Speaker 1: all this high sight. Tell me more about how you

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Speaker 1: feel relative to men, not particular individual, but one sex

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Speaker 1: via the other.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think as I've gotten older and I've experienced

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Speaker 2: healthy relationships, you know, I've been married to my husband.

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Speaker 2: We're getting ready to have our twenty first wedding anniversary

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Speaker 2: and we've been together for twenty four years. Once I

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Speaker 2: actually experienced commitment and healthy exchanges and where things didn't

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Speaker 2: all just revolve around the other person. I was very

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Speaker 2: much a product of the sixties and the seventies because

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Speaker 2: as much as women were burning their bras and people

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Speaker 2: were burning their draft cards, there was still a suppression.

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Speaker 2: There was still a stigma that went with burning that

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Speaker 2: bra or having more than one boyfriend, or having a

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Speaker 2: child out of wedlock that was still not one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent accepted as it is today. And the choices I

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Speaker 2: made when I was young, I think were based on

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Speaker 2: parental some kind of parental baggage I was carrying from

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Speaker 2: my childhood. I'm really not sure, because I didn't really

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Speaker 2: ponder it. I wasn't a self destructive person, and I

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Speaker 2: wasn't an angry person. I was just a person that

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Speaker 2: was sort of like swirling around like Alice in Wonderland,

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Speaker 2: jumping from mushroom to mushroom. It like sort of like

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Speaker 2: Forrest Gump, but with a higher IQ. I just sort

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Speaker 2: of fell into situations that I think I was obviously

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Speaker 2: meant to experience. And whatever notoriety or recognition I got

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Speaker 2: from relationships, I also got a lot on my own

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Speaker 2: and my input in those relationships, if that means much.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't Sharon Osborne, and I wasn't, you know, a

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Speaker 2: Mamager type person. But I was a very artistic young girl,

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Speaker 2: and I think I craved that around me. It was

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Speaker 2: sort of my fuel, as well as the men that

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed being around.

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Speaker 1: What kind of kid were you like growing up. Were

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Speaker 1: you the life of the party, Were you the lone artist?

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Speaker 1: Were you a good student? Bad student? Friends not friends?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was dyslexic and ad HD and all the

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Speaker 2: other things that come with a lot of creative energy.

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Speaker 2: But I had a really, really loving mother that sort

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Speaker 2: of understood that I was. Same with me. With my

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Speaker 2: daughter live, I knew she was. She was, you know,

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Speaker 2: a little special as well. And my mother allowed all

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Speaker 2: the art. She never told me to turn my music down.

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Speaker 2: When she saw that I was interested in drawing, she

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Speaker 2: bought me an easel, and she never tried to stifle

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Speaker 2: my love of any kind of craft. I was always

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Speaker 2: very infatuated with art period. I just would sit for

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Speaker 2: hours and look at art books. And that's how I

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Speaker 2: fell in love with Oscar Wilde and just through books,

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Speaker 2: you know, just through looking at lots of pictures and

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Speaker 2: deciding what I identified with.

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Speaker 1: And okay, so were you into music before the Beatles?

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Speaker 1: Were the Beatles really a transcendent moment for you?

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Speaker 2: Well, the physicality of the Beatles absolutely. Seeing him on

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Speaker 2: the Ed Sullivan Show was a mind blowing experience. I

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Speaker 2: feel bad for anybody that didn't get to experience is that.

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Speaker 2: It was really incredible. It was probably one of the

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Speaker 2: greatest moments of my life. That and the Rolling Stones.

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Speaker 2: But before that, yes, my mother had She liked Patsy Kleine,

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Speaker 2: and she liked Frank Sinatra, and and she liked Hank Williams,

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Speaker 2: and she really loved Eddie Arnold, and so we had

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Speaker 2: There was music in the house a lot. And my

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Speaker 2: mother liked the radio. So when we were in the car,

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Speaker 2: when we had cars with radios, she would let me

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Speaker 2: listen to whatever station I wanted. And I enjoyed listening

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Speaker 2: to a little bit of everything. I sort of had

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Speaker 2: a Shmorgas board. I loved the Everly Brothers and that

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Speaker 2: you know that and that song by Roy Orbison crying

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Speaker 2: that just crat you know. I would just go around

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Speaker 2: the house like a maniac singing that song. And I

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Speaker 2: was very affected by Gypsy rose Lee. Let me entertain,

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Speaker 2: you know. I would get in the shower and sing

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Speaker 2: at the top of my lungs. And so what kind

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Speaker 2: of child was I? I was sort of an entertainer

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Speaker 2: from a very young age, but I didn't there was

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Speaker 2: something missing. I think that's because of the situation with

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Speaker 2: my dad. I never felt like I was enough. I

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Speaker 2: never felt as pretty as the other girls or but

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Speaker 2: of course it was not like that. It's just it's

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Speaker 2: how I felt. So And did I get good grades, No,

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Speaker 2: because I had attention deficit. But there was one subject

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Speaker 2: I was good in, and that was English literature. So

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Speaker 2: any story telling, anything I could read about the Renaissance period,

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Speaker 2: or anything that attracted me in that arena, Greek mythology, romany, astrology, metaphysics,

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Speaker 2: Madame Blovowski, you know, things like that. It really resonated

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Speaker 2: with me. So my mother kind of knew that I

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Speaker 2: didn't have that headspace for wanting to go and go

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Speaker 2: to college, that I was going to sort of learn.

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Speaker 2: I was going to get my education the old fashioned way,

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Speaker 2: kick them in the deep end and see if they swim.

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Speaker 2: And she sent my high school graduation picture to the

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Speaker 2: biggest agent in the world. My mother always fought big

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Speaker 2: and she still does, and I never thought I would

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Speaker 2: get a response, But within three days we were on

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Speaker 2: an airplane to New York City because Eileen Ford had

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Speaker 2: summoned me and that was it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go do a little backfill here. So you

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Speaker 1: were ten when the Beatles came out that was a

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Speaker 1: big thing. Music was everything, and then you were entering

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Speaker 1: ju You're high. Were you a popular girl, did you

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Speaker 1: go on dates? Did you suddenly go wild or were

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Speaker 1: you more separate? What were you like?

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Speaker 2: Well? I was in Catholic boarding school for sixth, seventh,

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Speaker 2: and eighth grade. I went to Villa Maria Academy, which

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Speaker 2: was a I came home for holidays in summer. And

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Speaker 2: then in ninth grade, my stepfather got stationed in Newport,

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Speaker 2: Rhode Island, so I went to Saint Catherine's Academy and

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Speaker 2: on Bellevue Avenue. And it was when I was in

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Speaker 2: ninth grade at a school dance that I met Paul

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Speaker 2: Calcil from the group the Colcils. But at the time

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Speaker 2: he was not in the band. He was the one

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Speaker 2: brother besides his other brother Richard, that weren't in the

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Speaker 2: band because the dad just decided they weren't in the band. So,

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Speaker 2: I mean, Paul was kind of a jock, you know.

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Speaker 2: He hung out with my friend Charlie and they liked basketball.

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Speaker 2: So that was my first big fourteen going on fifteen,

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Speaker 2: when I met Paul, and I remember my first slow

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Speaker 2: dance with him. It was the last dance of the

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Speaker 2: Night and Paul Castle comes to me and he asked

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Speaker 2: me if I wanted to dance, and of course I

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Speaker 2: said yes. He was so handsome. They were the most

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Speaker 2: beautiful children. They were just all gorgeous. And so he

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Speaker 2: was about seventeen at the time, and his family was

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Speaker 2: becoming huge. The band was getting big, big, big big.

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Speaker 2: But see I didn't know any of this at the

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Speaker 2: time because I was a rock I listened to rock music.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't really familiar with the Cowciles until hair and

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Speaker 2: then I really knew who they were. And of course

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Speaker 2: the rained to park and other things, so that sort

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Speaker 2: of started the dynamic of my first kiss. My first

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Speaker 2: crush was somebody that went off to the circus. Suddenly

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Speaker 2: Paul's dad decided he was going to be in the band,

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Speaker 2: so Paul was in the Castiles. He was the keyboard players.

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Speaker 2: So no more school dances. Oh. The slow song was

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Speaker 2: blue Velvet, my first Blue Velve. You know, it's incredible.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, so of course we had to sneak off

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Speaker 2: to kiss each other in the backseat of a car.

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Speaker 2: It was all very innocent. There was nothing advanced. There

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Speaker 2: was no third base or fourth base, back then, it

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Speaker 2: was first base and second base, at least in my world.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure other worlds were different, but in my world,

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Speaker 2: and Paul always had the fear of his father looming

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Speaker 2: over him. He had this incredibly strict father. He wasn't

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Speaker 2: allowed to date, he wasn't allowed to go in cars,

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Speaker 2: he wasn't allowed to do any of that stuff. He

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Speaker 2: might as well have been Mormon. I mean, it was crazy,

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Speaker 2: but anyway, they moved to California, and I finished my

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Speaker 2: soft more year in new Portwood Island, and then my

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Speaker 2: family got transferred to Campla June, North Carolina, and that's

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Speaker 2: where I did my junior and my senior year. So

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Speaker 2: finally I was going to normal, a normal public school.

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Speaker 2: I went to campblu June High School. I graduated from there,

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Speaker 2: and was I popular. I was always described I'm going

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Speaker 2: to go buy my yearbook as an individualist and artistic,

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Speaker 2: artistic girl was the so I guess, I guess it.

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Speaker 2: Just it followed me. Was I effervescent, the entertainer, and

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Speaker 2: me had not come out yet as far as being

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Speaker 2: able to stand in front of people and actually own it,

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Speaker 2: you know, that had not happened yet. I was still,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to use the word shy. I just

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Speaker 2: didn't know yet how to present myself as a confident

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Speaker 2: human that hadn't really hadn't really eluded me yet. So

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Speaker 2: I always had a sense of wonderment. But was I popular?

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Speaker 2: I guess was some kids, the cool kids, kids that

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Speaker 2: liked rock and roll, kids that knew who Blue Cheer were,

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Speaker 2: you know, I I.

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Speaker 1: Oh, okay, So you talk about those bands, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: know in your book, and that, you know, was the

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Speaker 1: reason we're doing this podcast, Rebel Soul. You talk about

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Speaker 1: seeing the Rolling Stones on one of their first tours.

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Speaker 1: So to what degree were you owning records? To what

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Speaker 1: degree were you going to concerts when you were in

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Speaker 1: high school?

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Speaker 2: In high school, Oh, well, I didn't go to a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of concerts, that's for sure, And it wasn't

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Speaker 2: until I was a senior. But I did see the

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Speaker 2: Rolling Stones. But I was only twelve when that happened.

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Speaker 2: That was July fourth, nineteen sixty six, at the Virginia

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Speaker 2: Beach Dome B Shepherd Convention Center. My best friend since

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Speaker 2: fifth grade, Joni Gross, and I went and it changed

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Speaker 2: my life. You know. I was the kid that got

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Speaker 2: into the newspaper for walking up to the stage with

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Speaker 2: my instematic camera to take some pictures, and I got

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Speaker 2: pushed by the stage was lined with cops. And that

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Speaker 2: was my first taste at twelve going on thirteen. In

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Speaker 2: ten days I would turn thirteen. What a baptism of

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Speaker 2: Keith Richards actually coming to the edge of the stage

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Speaker 2: and telling the cop to leave me alone. He sort

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Speaker 2: of took his foot and nudged him. He didn't do

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Speaker 2: a full on Keith, but he did a little nudge,

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Speaker 2: not a kick, but a nudge, you know, to let

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Speaker 2: the police officer know that I could take my picture.

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Speaker 2: And boy did I never forget that, you know. So

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Speaker 2: I was the kid that after I started clicking, I

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Speaker 2: got a picture of Brian Jones playing Harmonica in his

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Speaker 2: print pinstripe suit. Once I did that, the rest of

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Speaker 2: the kids were able to push up a little bit

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Speaker 2: more and it became a lot more fun. But so

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Speaker 2: at that moment, I felt very connected to the spirit

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Speaker 2: of what I was indulging. I felt very confident when

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Speaker 2: I went up there to take my picture, and I

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Speaker 2: wasn't going to let anybody stop me. And so after that,

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Speaker 2: I think I went to a couple of those kind

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Speaker 2: of gigs where they would have multiple people on the gig,

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Speaker 2: you know, like Hermit's Hermit's and Sonny and Cher and

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Speaker 2: Gary and the Pacemakers or something like that, and everybody

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Speaker 2: would play like ten or fifteen minutes. And I know

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Speaker 2: that Jamie Hendricks opened for the Monkeys when I lived

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Speaker 2: in Newport and which was a strange tour for Hendrix

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Speaker 2: to be on, But I didn't go to that. But

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Speaker 2: in high school, I mean I would always go to

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Speaker 2: the school dances and you know, we would always go

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Speaker 2: to the canteen and we would always dance and all

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Speaker 2: the you know, local bands and stuff. So when I

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Speaker 2: was a senior in high school, that's when I met

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Speaker 2: my first became friends with a local band that was

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Speaker 2: big enough to open for Johnny Winter. So so my big,

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Speaker 2: my first big concert where I got to be backstage

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Speaker 2: and and s see a band like Johnny Winter, and

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Speaker 2: which was so amazing when Rick Darringer was in the band,

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Speaker 2: and I'm talking about the lineup after Zanga, after Rick's

347
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Speaker 2: brother Randy had left, when it was just the trio,

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, and you know, you know, I got

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Speaker 2: it just it was a chain reaction. It just sort

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Speaker 2: of started after that, but most of the concerts I

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Speaker 2: went to that all started. I think I saw the

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Speaker 2: James Gang when I was in and they were great.

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Speaker 2: It's funny that Ted Nugent the and boy Duke's played

354
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Speaker 2: with the James Gang, and I never liked Isn't it funny?

355
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Speaker 2: Never liked Ted NuGen There was just something about that

356
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Speaker 2: guy that creeped me out from the very beginning. I

357
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Speaker 2: don't know if it was my Catholic schoolgirl radar or

358
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Speaker 2: what it was, but he just creeped me out. I

359
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 2: remember telling Dale Peters from the James Gang, he was

360
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Speaker 2: the bass player, that that guy, that guy is so weird.

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Speaker 2: You know. I was young, so I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: other names to call him. I didn't know it was

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Speaker 2: going to be like, you know, all the things I

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Speaker 2: could say. But it's interesting I had even a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a radar even then. I was blessed with

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Speaker 2: some kind of protective thing. God only knows how I

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Speaker 2: made it out alive some of the situations I got

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Speaker 2: myself into in life, and I just feel, whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: you roll with it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. Your mother writes a letter to

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Speaker 1: Eileen Ford, Did you want to be a model or

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Speaker 1: did your mother want you to be a model?

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Speaker 2: I wanted to get to New York City. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to meet Andy Warhol. I wanted to look at I

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Speaker 2: wanted to meet the people I saw in Vogue magazine.

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Speaker 2: And I wanted to be around that was my tribe.

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Speaker 2: To me, that was my sole tribe. And I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be where they where that was. And I always

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Speaker 2: told my friends this too. I'm still my best friend

380
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Speaker 2: from high school, Tim Sullivan, he lives in the Chelsea Hotel.

381
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Speaker 2: He's one of the people that's been there for thirty years,

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Speaker 2: so they couldn't get him to leave even when they

383
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 2: rent oed. But he I wasn't surprised at all with

384
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 2: the way my life went because I told him that,

385
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Speaker 2: you know, I was going to get to New York.

386
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Speaker 2: I thought I was going to be a singer. I

387
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Speaker 2: thought I was going to be like Nico or something.

388
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Speaker 2: I thought I was going to or Marianne Faithful. I

389
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: sort of wanted to be a chantoose. But I was

390
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: a little too rocking. There was like that my body language,

391
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 2: my aura, everything about me was not as delicate, you know.

392
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Speaker 2: I just I guess the term rock chick. I guess

393
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Speaker 2: it's just in my pedigree and my DNA or whatever

394
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Speaker 2: it is. But I just wanted to get to New York.

395
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Speaker 2: And I'll be honest, I didn't even know what would

396
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: happen when my mom sent those pictures and when Eileen's responded,

397
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: my mother tried to explain to me, look, if you're

398
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Speaker 2: not going to go to college, you really have to

399
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 2: have a good job to work. And I thought, Okay,

400
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: I get it. Maybe this will be fun. And you know,

401
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: I loved fashion magazines and I loved all the great supermodels,

402
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 2: and I loved Twiggy and Jean Shrimpton and Patty Boyd

403
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: and Jane Asher and it was all on my radar.

404
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: So I wanted to be more like that, like Jane Barkin.

405
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 2: I wanted to be more so. Of course, Eileen she

406
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: signed me immediately. I was signed him for it in

407
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: ten minutes. It happened very fast, and they put me

408
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: in Saint Mary's Woman's Residence. I was very used to

409
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: being around nuns, but I wasn't able to keep my curfew.

410
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Speaker 2: You had to be in by midnight when you were

411
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Speaker 2: in Saint Mary's and I was starting to meet friends,

412
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Speaker 2: and we used to go dancing at this place called

413
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Speaker 2: hip hopon him. And then when I met Todd, I

414
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: met Todd, and then the whole.

415
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Speaker 1: A little bit slower when you went to New York.

416
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Speaker 1: When you went to New York, you were going to

417
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: the mecca. Were you convinced you were going to meet

418
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: all these people? Were you driven? Did you say I'm

419
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: gonna make it? Or were you just blindly bumping into things?

420
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 2: It was blind? I you know, I try to take

421
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: more credit for this fabulous life that I've been given,

422
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: but actually I can't because all I did was manifest

423
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 2: whatever my dreams were, and I would just do what

424
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 2: I was taught. Be kind to people, be respectful, have

425
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: good manners, and be honest and be direct. And so

426
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 2: I just sort of I allowed whatever that inner voice

427
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: is to sort of take me left or right.

428
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Speaker 1: Okay, But there were other models staying at Saint Mary's.

429
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: How did you meet people? And you go out dancing.

430
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Speaker 1: You're a single attractive model in New York. You know

431
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to be interested in

432
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Speaker 1: talking to you.

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00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: Right, I met, I mean I met I remember I

434
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 2: met the DJ Frankie Crucker, because he would go and dance,

435
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: and he loved to dance with all the pretty girls

436
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 2: and he would. But you know, that was back when

437
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: it was not so much about picking up. You would

438
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: go to these dance clubs to actually dance. It was

439
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: kind of interesting. It wasn't like I mean, I'm sure

440
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: some people picked each other up, but I never gave

441
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 2: off that. I was never hunting, you know, I was

442
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: never looking for boyfriends. As a matter of fact, I

443
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: didn't have any boyfriends until I met Todd. He was

444
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: my first boyfriend.

445
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: Okay, but were you sexually experienced when you met Todd?

446
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: Not as much as some seventeen eight ten year old girls. Yeah,

447
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: I mean I kind of was.

448
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, how'd you meet Todd?

449
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: Well? That was that was what changed my life. I

450
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: was hanging out with this guy that Aileen Ford approved

451
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: of because she thought he was gay, but he wasn't.

452
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: And he started actually dating one of the biggest models

453
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: in New York and right under Eileen's nose, but she

454
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: let all the girls go out dancing with him. His

455
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: name was Richard, and he was really nice and he

456
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: he asked me what I wanted to do, and I said,

457
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: you know, Let's go see man. I had gone to

458
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: see Man of La Mancha with my mother when I

459
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: was a little girl in New York, and I wanted

460
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: to go relive that moment, so I said, let's go

461
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: see Man of La Mancha. So he took me to

462
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 2: see Man of La Mancha. But on the way, Richard

463
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: says to me, we have to make a stop on

464
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: East thirteenth Street. I have to drop these tapes off

465
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: to Todd Runggren. And he said, do you know who

466
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: that is? And I was like, no, who's that? And

467
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 2: he said, have you ever heard the song Hello? It's me?

468
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: And I was like, uh, yeah, yeah, And he goes

469
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: that guy he's going, he's gone solo. And he started

470
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: to tell me about this famous manager named Albert Grossman

471
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: was managing him and he's going to be a big star,

472
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: and that he had these tapes that he had done

473
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: over at this place called Secret Sound with Moogie Klingman

474
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: or something, and that he needed to drop them off

475
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 2: to Todd. So we pull up in front of two

476
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 2: oh six East thirteenth Street, the same block that that

477
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: scene in Taxi Driver where Jody leans up against the

478
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: building when she's out to get a hooker or two

479
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: or whatever. So he pulls the car up, but it

480
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: was really a scary neighborhood in those days. He told

481
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: me to stay in the car, and I was like,

482
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: I'm not staying in the car, you know. So he

483
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: had to throw a penny up to Todd's window because

484
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: Todd didn't have a doorbell, and so he threw a

485
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: coin up to Todd's window. And this guy looked out

486
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: the window, this guy, this multi colored hair. He looked like,

487
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: you know that toy, my little pony. He sort of

488
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: looked like my little pony. He was like a horse

489
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: with rainbow hair, but a beautiful, a good looking horse,

490
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: you know, a stallion. So but he so he came

491
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: running down the stairs to get the tapes, and the

492
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: exchange was made, and that's when I met him. Todd said, oh,

493
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: who's your friend, Richard? And you know, Richie said, oh,

494
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: that's my friend baby. She's moved here from Virginia. You know,

495
00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: she's she's a model, she's with the four modeling agency,

496
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And it's just you know, like he goes,

497
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: oh great. You know, he was just wanting the tapes

498
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: and he was going to go up and do his thing.

499
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: So I met him, and I, you know, I of

500
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: course was immediately drawn to him. I think we were

501
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: drawn to each other. I think it was just some

502
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: kind of written in the heavens. I don't know how

503
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 2: healthy the whole thing was, but I think we had

504
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: to go through it, whatever it was.

505
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, so what are you living on? Are

506
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: you going? You know, there's a lot of looks see

507
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: are you getting booked? Are you working a little bit?

508
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: Yes? I was doing a lot of testing. You know,

509
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: you have to get a portfolio really really together, locked in.

510
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: So Eileen was sending me off to meet photographers, but

511
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: they would like me. So I was doing bookings for

512
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: my Bride's magazine. That was my first big booking, and

513
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 2: I would do Butterick and McCalls patterns, you know, I

514
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: was doing some catalog. Eileen felt that I needed a

515
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 2: little a little experience in front of the camera. But

516
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: it was it was photographers that that saw that I

517
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: had an edge that really enjoyed working with me. So

518
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: I started to really make I started to get momentum.

519
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: But then when I met Todd, that moved very quickly

520
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: and I moved in with Todd and before I Oh.

521
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, let's park that for a second. You had

522
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: the time before Todd. If we looked solely at your

523
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: modeling career, how much modeling did you actually do in

524
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: your life?

525
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: In my life, yeah, or in those months before I

526
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: went in my life, I think if you were going

527
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 2: to put it into I think my best years where

528
00:33:55,240 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 2: I really worked the most, were between seventy four and

529
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: seventy eight, So as far as professional modeling, those were

530
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 2: the best years.

531
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: Okay. And were you doing well full time? I know

532
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: we were with Todd at that point, but that was

533
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: the beginning of the era of the supermodel.

534
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: Well, that started in the eighties, and I had already

535
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 2: stopped modeling, but I still was photographed heavily. Even when

536
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 2: I wasn't modeling for income people were I was photographed

537
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: quite a lot. I was the subject of mini photographers.

538
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: Okay, there are end pictures, but modeling takes a lot

539
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: of effort and it's a lot of work. Did you

540
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: actually enjoy doing it?

541
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 2: No, of course I didn't. Only time I did was

542
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: when I was in London. That was when I really

543
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: buckled under and I lived the life of a very

544
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 2: very busy, hard working model where I would go to

545
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: bed every night, not party. I mean there were times

546
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: when Mick Jagger would call and say let's go to

547
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 2: tramp and I would be like, not tonight, Mick, I've

548
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: got a big booking tomorrow and I have to get

549
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: some sleep. Oh darling, I'll have you back. And I

550
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: was like, no, no, you don't understand. This is really important.

551
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: I really want this client, you know. So I was

552
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 2: being very disciplined. And then the photographer, ironically, when you

553
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: hear his last name, it's kind of funny. The photographer

554
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: that really legitimized me and got me on the pages

555
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 2: of Vogue was named Clive Arrowsmith and this was in

556
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 2: seventy six. And it was in the fall of seventy

557
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 2: six that Stephen Tyler from Aerosmith became the father of

558
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: my child. Well, he didn't become. He impregnated me, as

559
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 2: I we impregnated each other. So it's funny. I look

560
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 2: at some of the synchronicities and some of the abstract occurrences,

561
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 2: and no, I from seventy two to like seventy I

562
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 2: did Playboy in seventy four, and you know, I made

563
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: some money for that, but I would do a gig

564
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: now and then, just to make some money so that

565
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 2: I could just be whatever. I didn't even know who

566
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: I was. I didn't know what I wanted to be.

567
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: All I knew was that music was my passion, and

568
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: I kept my little notebooks with all my lyrics, and

569
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: I just didn't know how to I didn't know how

570
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: to get there. I didn't know how to do it.

571
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: Okay, when you were in Playboy. There have been some

572
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: famous people in the fifties. Once you hit the sixties

573
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: and seventies, they tended to be unknown. You were not

574
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: completely unknown. Of course, as time went on, a lot

575
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: of known people ended up doing it, But when you

576
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: were doing doing it, most people were relatively faceless in

577
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: terms of impact in the culture. How did you decide

578
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: to do it and what was the result of doing it?

579
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness, it's it's just such a it's a

580
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: crazy story. Uh. Todd was friends with a photographer named

581
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 2: Lynn Goldsmith, and she wanted to photograph me, and I

582
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: said sure. So she came over to our townhouse and

583
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: Todd was in the studio, and we had a lot

584
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: of props because Todd had all these fantastic jackets and

585
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,439
Speaker 2: hats and you know, all kinds of fun things top

586
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: hats that I love. And she is a little by little,

587
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: the picture started getting less and less clothed, and before

588
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: I knew it, Lynn Goldsmith was photographing me nude with

589
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 2: feathers around my neck. So I was eighteen years old,

590
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: nineteen years old, and no wait when this happened, I

591
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: was nineteen and going on twenty. And so she took

592
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: the first nude photos of me, and they were really

593
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 2: good and in classic Lynn style, she wanted you know,

594
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: them to be published somewhere. I mean, they were good enough.

595
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: She was really good photographer. So she showed them to Playboy.

596
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: She showed them to Penthouse, which I objected to. I

597
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: did not like that magazine at all. But Playboy was

598
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: something that, as my friend Patty Smith called it at

599
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 2: the time, very American pie, very American, very uh pepsi cola,

600
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 2: very you know, Mickey Mouse, part of the culture. And

601
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: there were some iconic people like Bridget Bardoux and even

602
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: Linda Evans, and you know a lot of very beautiful

603
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 2: women of the times, Betty Paye, you know, a lot

604
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: of girls had done it. The Barde bread I remember

605
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 2: seeing there were these pictures of she and Jane Barkin.

606
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 2: But anyway, Todd had a girlfriend before me. Let's see,

607
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: I think Patty Smith. He was dating Patty Smith and

608
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 2: he had this another girlfriend, and but she broke his heart.

609
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 2: She was like the girl that broke his heart. But

610
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 2: he sort of always carried a torch for her, or

611
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: at least I thought he did. And there was talk

612
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: that she she was going to be a Playboy centerfold.

613
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: And when I heard that, I said to Lynn, what

614
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: did played? You know, Let's show those pictures the Playboy.

615
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: So Lynn showed the pictures the Playboy, and yeah, they

616
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: bit right away, and they me to Chicago. That's when

617
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 2: everything happened in Chicago. That's when Hefner lived in the

618
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: Chicago mansion. And I went and I did a test

619
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 2: test shoots for two days, and my test shots ended

620
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 2: up being the pictorial ended up being the whole thing,

621
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: except for the centerfold that was shot in New York

622
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: City on one of those cameras as I forget what

623
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 2: they're called, but they're prehistoric now. But it's the one

624
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: you have to slide the thing in and out of,

625
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: and the plate and the whole bit and you can't move,

626
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 2: You like, have to stay in the position you're in

627
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: until they say and you can't breathe. You can't do anything. People.

628
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 2: If anybody thinks it's sexy, it's it's not. It's it's

629
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 2: it's hard work. It's it's not glamorous shooting these pictorials.

630
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 2: I know people think it is, but it's not. And

631
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: it's just like doing a modeling job, except you're just

632
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: not promoting clothes. You're promoting something else. I'm not even

633
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 2: sure what, because I didn't really have much on my mind,

634
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: if you want to know the truth, except that I

635
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 2: wanted the pictures to be good. I wanted them to

636
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: be okay. That was, you know, basically the way I

637
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: was thinking. But I also wanted when I found out okay.

638
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: So then I found out this girlfriend was going to

639
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 2: be Miss April, so I thought Miss April. So I

640
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 2: actually went out and bought myself a shamrock necklace because

641
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 2: I thought if I wore a shamrock that I might

642
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: be Miss March, so that I would maybe beat her

643
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 2: to the punch. I mean, you used to make su

644
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: your brain do crazy things. But it turns out I

645
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 2: became Miss November. So she came out before I did.

646
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: But you wanted to be a shame woman who had

647
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: dated Todd previously.

648
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: Yes, her name was Marlene, and he even wrote a

649
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 2: song about.

650
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah Marlene Marlene, Yes, yea.

651
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: And she she was that girl, beautiful and she and

652
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: I actually became really good friends. Where's she today, Well today,

653
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure. I think she had some tragedies

654
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: in her life, and I think she even later in life,

655
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: became homeless and things, and I think she had some problems.

656
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 2: But at that time she was young and vivacious and

657
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 2: beautiful and a friend. You know, I actually liked her.

658
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 2: I took my first trip to London and actually stayed

659
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: with her. And this was can you believe it? But

660
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: I liked her. But she was madly in love with

661
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: Don Arden's son, one of the Arden boys. I think

662
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 2: I can't remember which one. But she wasn't interested in Todd.

663
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: And this was what was so sad about it, because

664
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: here I was thinking that his heart belonged to her,

665
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 2: but she didn't love him, you know, it was just

666
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 2: it was just she wanted a businessman. She wanted a

667
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 2: successful man with lots of money. Little did she know

668
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: Todd became very, very wealthy after that. But I don't know,

669
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: it's just so I never became Miss Marched. So here

670
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 2: I am this Miss November with a shamrock around my neck.

671
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 2: So everybody thought, for sure, I must be irish, But

672
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: it just it was just a moment. It was a

673
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 2: whim but it changed my life drastically in the sense

674
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 2: that there was no more fashion career for me. In America,

675
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 2: it was very taboo for a fashion model of my

676
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: status to become a Playboy centerfold, let alone pose in

677
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,439
Speaker 2: the magazine. And as you know, in the eighties, John

678
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 2: Costablanca turned that around and every supermodel and their dog

679
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 2: wanted to be in Playboy, and so the mystique was

680
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 2: still very heavy when I did it. So I carried

681
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: the weight of that around and it was very hard

682
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: for me. I got booked with Cosmopolitan or Viva, you know,

683
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 2: the women's magazines that were kind of sexy. But it

684
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: wasn't until I went to Europe in seventy five seventy

685
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: six that I did all my most beautiful, legitimate work.

686
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 2: They just didn't care about nudity. In Europe. It was like, okay,

687
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 2: so what you've been in Playboy who Cares?

688
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're missed November. Yeah, the magazine at the

689
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: time was selling millions of copies. Young boys were infatuated

690
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: with the playmates. But you were living in a relatively

691
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 1: insular model rock and roll world. Were people recognizing you

692
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: on the street. Did you get fan mail any of that?

693
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you do get fan mail, but it all goes

694
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: to Playboy and then they give you, like a couple

695
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: times a year, a big envelope with your fan mail.

696
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: But I actually had boxes of it. They they called

697
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: me and they said, we can't send you an envelope.

698
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: We've got six boxes for you. So when you know,

699
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 2: I had when Todd was touring, I had them pick

700
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 2: up the boxes for me, the crew on one of

701
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: the tours, so that I could read the fan mail.

702
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 2: And I still have some of it. I kept some

703
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,280
Speaker 2: of it because it was They would make drawings, maybe

704
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: beautiful letters, and it was very sweet, you know. Yeah,

705
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: so yeah, you do get recognized a little bit. But

706
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 2: in the world that I was living in, it was

707
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 2: all about the rock star, you know. I you know,

708
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 2: maybe maybe I was looked upon as an embellishment, who knows,

709
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 2: but I do know that it changed the way people

710
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: reacted to me. I think men especially thought that I

711
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: must be this wild beast in bed, or that I

712
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 2: must be a sexual, you know, an inphomaniac or something.

713
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. Posing nude conjures up a lot of stuff,

714
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 2: and and and people treat you differently, they really do.

715
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: They sort of take for granted that you're you're a

716
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 2: sexual being and that you're there for the sexual aspect.

717
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: So it's it's, yeah, you know you are. We're all

718
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: sexual beings. But at the time, I was so confused

719
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: about everything in my life that sex was really not

720
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: the most important thing on my mind, and I was

721
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 2: just trying to find my way.

722
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: Okay, let's one other thing about models. There's a lot

723
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: of publicity about how models have to stay ultra thin,

724
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: they can't eat anything, there's pressure on looks. To what

725
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: degree did you feel that then, and to what degree

726
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: do you still feel it?

727
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: Well? I didn't even I didn't abide by it. I

728
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 2: was never a skinny, skinny girl. I've never my daughter's

729
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 2: never been a skinny, skinny girl. I never adhered to

730
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: that demand, and quite frankly, I'll be honest, it was

731
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: never demanded of me. Nobody ever said to me, oh,

732
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 2: you need to go lose one hundred pounds. I mean

733
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 2: one time I did one booking when I was three

734
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 2: months pregnant with my daughter, where they asked me, you know,

735
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 2: if I wanted to do some paternity dresses for their

736
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 2: you know, for the paternity catalog.

737
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: And I remember it being maternity. I think you mean maternity.

738
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 2: Did I say paternity? I like that.

739
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: That's interesting.

740
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, that was the subject of my

741
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 2: entire life at that point. So yeah, that was the

742
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 2: paternity issue. But no, thank you for correcting that. It's

743
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 2: like prescription and subscription, you know, and it was just.

744
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to Todd now. So you have

745
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: this exchange of glances, then you go uptown with Richard.

746
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: When did you next see Todd?

747
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: What? What? What did you say?

748
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 1: You say that you met Todd when your friend Richard

749
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 1: was tapes, But really you and Richard were going up town.

750
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 2: Yeah wait, no, I think where we were going was

751
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: wherever Man of La Mancha was playing.

752
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: Okay, well on Broadway. So in any event, uptown from

753
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 1: where Todd was. When did you next make contact with Todd?

754
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 2: It was about two days later, he invited He's He

755
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 2: told Richard that he was having some friends over to

756
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 2: his to his place. They were, you know, just smoke

757
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: some weed and you know, just to hang out. And

758
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,800
Speaker 2: he was living with his friend Paul Fishkin. And I

759
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 2: mean there was another incident before that, but Todd hates

760
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 2: it when I tell it. So I'm just gonna blet.

761
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: Just because I'm injured. You don't have to tell. Why

762
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: does Todd hate it?

763
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, he hates it because he doesn't like to admit

764
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 2: that he ever did something so romantic. But he did.

765
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: Okay, we won't make it tell it, so, okay, there's

766
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:49,760
Speaker 1: that other incident.

767
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 2: But anyway, there was there was the incident where I

768
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 2: ran into him and his dog because he was very

769
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 2: near my modeling agency. I'll word it like that. He

770
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 2: just happened to be sitting on the steps of where

771
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 2: Ford Models is on fifty ninth Street, and he lives

772
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 2: on thirteenth Street, so God only knows why he was there.

773
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: He had facetiously Okay, No, I mean he said he

774
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: was bringing his dog, Puppet, who was pregnant, to the vet.

775
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 2: Now that's very possible because Puppet was pregnant and she

776
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 2: did give birth to Furberger, who became my dog. But yes,

777
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 2: but anyway, I just thought that was all very sweet

778
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 2: and interesting. And then Richard calls me at the woman's

779
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 2: residence and says, oh, I got a call from Todd

780
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 2: and he's invited us over, invited me over, and he

781
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 2: told me I could bring that friend of mine again

782
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 2: if I wanted. So I remember that Richard at the

783
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: last minute didn't want to go. He goes, I'm not

784
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 2: gonna go. You go ahead and go, though they're you know,

785
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 2: they're expecting you. So I got there and I did

786
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: the thing where you throw the penny, and Todd didn't

787
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 2: look out the window. Paul Fishkin did and I had

788
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 2: not met Paul yet, so he looked out the window

789
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 2: and he goes, oh, babe, I'll come right down, and

790
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 2: you know, lets me in. And I walk in and

791
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 2: it's just Paul and two girls that seemed very very nice,

792
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 2: you know. They were one of them looked like she

793
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: might work at a record company. That was. They were

794
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 2: just hanging out rolling joints, doing the stuff we did

795
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 2: back then, and Todd had just gotten a new Sony

796
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 2: trena Tron colored TV, so everybody was having fun with

797
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 2: the rabbit ears and the whole bit, and then about

798
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: five minutes after that, Todd comes in and that was that.

799
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: I don't we didn't spend a day apart after that.

800
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 2: That was that? Was it? Hot?

801
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: Long after that? Did you move in with him?

802
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 2: Did I move in? I would say it happened about

803
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 2: three weeks. I think he was going on the road

804
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 2: as well, and Puppet was pregnant, and there was a

805
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: girl that he had staying there, but he didn't want

806
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 2: her to stay there anymore because he didn't want her

807
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 2: to think they had a relationship. And so he said, look,

808
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 2: you know, the nuns were giving me a hard time

809
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 2: about curfew, and my mother was calling all the time,

810
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 2: and Eileen Ford was losing her mind and very angry

811
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 2: at me because I was sleeping instead of going on

812
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: go sees, and I was being naughty. Let's face it,

813
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 2: I was being a rebel, and so he said, why

814
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 2: don't you just come stay here? And that's how it

815
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 2: sort of happened. I got to the apartment and it

816
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 2: obviously needed to be cleaned, it obviously needed to be organized,

817
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: and Paul was never there. His room and his cat

818
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 2: was in the back and Todd's whole world was in

819
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 2: the front, and then there was a kitchen and a bathroom.

820
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: It was a typical dog bone a New York City apartment,

821
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: but with beautiful high ceilings and gilded gold. It was

822
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 2: really beautiful, a pre war building, but it was, you know,

823
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 2: it was small, and it was old, and the rent

824
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 2: was something like three hundred dollars a month. And so

825
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: Todd went on the road. I stayed Ferberger was born.

826
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: Do you happen to remember what year?

827
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: This is nineteen seventy two.

828
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so something anything has been released and he's on

829
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: tour supporting That.

830
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 2: First night, the first night I stayed with Todd. I

831
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 2: it's a funny story because this pot was so strong,

832
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: and he had bush Mill's Irish whiskey, and I drank

833
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: a little of that before I knew it. It was

834
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 2: the next morning. I literally put my head on his

835
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 2: lap and did not wake up until eight o'clock the

836
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 2: next morning. And it was really funny because we just

837
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 2: sort of fell as he fell asleep sitting up and

838
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 2: I fell asleep on his lap. But I woke up

839
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: and he went to play me. He said he wanted

840
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 2: to play me a song off his new album, and

841
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 2: it was Black Mariah. He wanted to play me Black Mariah,

842
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:44,439
Speaker 2: and his stereo blew up some kind it was really weird.

843
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 2: Some kind of weird technical thing happened. But of course

844
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 2: he got back there and he tinkered and he fiddled

845
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 2: and he did all of his genius stuff that he

846
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 2: always did. I don't know if it was real, if

847
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 2: he was just trying to impress me, because I was

848
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 2: very impressed. I thought, boy, my friend is Albert Einstein.

849
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 2: You know, he he knew exactly what to do and

850
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 2: what tubes and what things to press. And before I

851
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: knew it, the music is coming out of the speakers,

852
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 2: and you know, he plays me the album. And I

853
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 2: remember when I heard the song Marlene. I wanted to

854
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 2: know all about it, I said, And I said, who's Marlene?

855
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 2: He said, Oh, she's a girl that I, you know,

856
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 2: really loved and and but we're not together and blah

857
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 2: blah blah. And and his best friend at the time

858
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 2: was Patti Smith, and it was important to him that

859
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 2: I met her. He wanted her opinion of me, and

860
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,320
Speaker 2: then I became Then I became fast friends with Patty.

861
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 2: I just hit it off with her, like a house

862
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 2: on fire because she got it that I wrote in

863
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 2: my poetry books, and she got my stupid poems. She

864
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 2: liked them. I wrote this poem, this poem one time

865
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 2: that it goes you needle, you pen, you prick, And

866
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 2: she loved that. She said, that's three lines. That's real poetry, Beatie,

867
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 2: that's real. Keep going, keep going. And she was very encouraging,

868
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 2: you know, to that side of me, whereas Todd would

869
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 2: listen and he would say, oh, that's good, Yeah, that's

870
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 2: really good or something like that, but he would never

871
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 2: say like, oh, keep it up, or you know, he

872
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 2: was never like, I don't know. I don't know how

873
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 2: to explain what it's like to live with somebody of

874
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 2: that magnitude of genius, because basically all they think about

875
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 2: all day is the next genius move. They're like chess players,

876
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 2: which way are we going to move the rourk? You know,

877
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: which way are we going to move the king? It's

878
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 2: like their brains are always looking at the next challenge.

879
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: Well, did you end up feeling outside? I mean, you

880
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: had boyfriends before. Do you feel like I'm with him

881
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: but really he's in his own world.

882
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,359
Speaker 2: Well, I think anybody that knew Todd felt that way

883
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 2: because Todd was constantly, constantly in front of a screen.

884
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: He had a computer before anybody on earth had a computer.

885
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 2: He had a computer before Bill Gates had a computer.

886
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 2: He had computers, he had animation, He had all of

887
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 2: these very complicated technical stuff, you know, way before anybody.

888
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 2: And he was very obsessed with it. You know, he

889
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 2: would spend literally hours doing his stuff. But yeah, he

890
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 2: would go to Maxis, he would go to concerts, he

891
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 2: would hang out, he would get dressed up. I was

892
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 2: this social director. I called it. It was funny because

893
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 2: I would say, Todd, You've got to get up for

894
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 2: a minute. You've got to go out. You've got to

895
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 2: say hi to people. Alice keeps asking about you and

896
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 2: wondering when we're gonna all hang out again. You know.

897
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 2: It was stuff like that. You know, we would go

898
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 2: see really great shows. We would go see Alice Cooper

899
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 2: at Madison Square Garden or Peter Gabriel Gabriel at the

900
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 2: Felt Forum, or my favorite show still to this day,

901
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 2: this is the best lineup ever. Was First, we start

902
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 2: with lou Reed and this is during the period where

903
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 2: he had the white bleached terre and he simulated simulated

904
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 2: shooting up on stage. Then Hall and Oates came on

905
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 2: after that. You can imagine that, Dinas right, and then

906
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: Al Green closed out the night. That was like one

907
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 2: of the best triples I ever. You know, got got

908
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 2: to and and Todd. Todd was at that and we

909
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 2: went backstage, and I remember Mick was there too, and

910
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 2: it was quite a night. But yeah, you meet everybody

911
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 2: through that whole social circle. So everybody I met was

912
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 2: somebody that I met socially at a party, at a gathering,

913
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: but most of us gathered and met at Max's. That

914
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 2: was sort of our living room, Max's, Kansas City. But Todd,

915
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 2: I'll be honest, he loved women, and women loved him,

916
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 2: and he was a bit of a womanizer when he

917
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 2: was on the road. But that was not his image.

918
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 2: That was not what people thought of him at all.

919
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 2: People thought of the Todd that was always buried with

920
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 2: his face in a computer or in some kind of

921
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 2: musical environment.

922
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 1: He was he faithful? Was he faithful when he was home?

923
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 2: I'm not positive, you know, I'll be honest. We were

924
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 2: all so young and everybody was running around like like

925
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 2: kind of KOOKI I remember Leonard Cohen would call, and

926
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 2: Todd would always know it was going to be Leonard,

927
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 2: and he would go, if you want to answer it,

928
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 2: it's crazy Leonard, because Leonard would want to come over

929
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 2: and he would get extremely drunk. But see, I hadn't

930
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:06,919
Speaker 2: put together who Leonard Cohen was yet. I was too young,

931
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 2: but Todd got it, and I just remember Leonard came

932
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 2: over one night and he was super drunk, but he

933
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 2: was super charming. And Todd went off to go fiddle

934
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 2: with some electronic device because he and I was left

935
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,959
Speaker 2: sitting there with Leonard Cohen, and I remember he picked

936
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 2: up one of Todd's guitars and he said, I'm not

937
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 2: a very good guitar player, he goes, but I'm a

938
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 2: great writer. And so I said okay, and he started

939
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 2: singing and I almost fainted. It was like it was

940
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 2: bordered on a religious experience. It was very profound. But

941
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 2: he was such a handful, oh, such a handful, and

942
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 2: I sort of felt sorry for him. I didn't realize,

943
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 2: you know, the degree of his Leonard cohenness, if that

944
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 2: makes any sense. He was just crazy Leonard to me,

945
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 2: because that's what Todd called him. But I, you know,

946
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 2: I liked him. I thought he was a little kookie.

947
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 2: So I would let He would call and he'd say,

948
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 2: where are you going tonight? And I was, I'm going

949
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 2: to go to the plaza, or I'm going to go

950
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 2: to I'm going to go to the tiki bar at

951
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 2: the plaza, or I'm going to go here or there.

952
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 2: Can I come, you know? And I would say sure,

953
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: and he would come along, and usually he would get

954
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 2: so drunk that, you know, somebody would have to end

955
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 2: up taking him home in a cab or something. You know,

956
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 2: we never we never dated, you know, we were just buds.

957
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 2: I know that sounds weird. And I remember one of

958
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 2: the it left such an impact on me. One of

959
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 2: the sweetest things anybody that's ever said to me was

960
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 2: was Leonard Cohen. And you know, I just said to him,

961
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 2: I said, I don't know what you're expecting from our friendship,

962
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:56,440
Speaker 2: you know, I I don't know if you I know

963
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 2: you have plenty of girlfriends, because he did. He was

964
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 2: always talking about the women in his life and about Greece,

965
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 2: and you know, he was always talking about all kinds

966
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 2: of dilemmas and drama and and and he said, you know,

967
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 2: I just really really really enjoy being around you. He goes,

968
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 2: I just enjoy your company. I enjoy our discussions. And

969
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 2: he said, my favorite are the alien discussions. And so

970
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 2: we would talk about aliens. And so that was my

971
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 2: Leonard Cohen. But you know, one day I never never

972
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 2: heard from Leonard again, none of us did. He obviously

973
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 2: left New York, but he didn't tell anybody where he

974
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 2: was going or say goodbye to anybody. Just one day,

975
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 2: Leonard wasn't there anymore.

976
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: To what degree did you know Albert and Sally Grossman?

977
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,440
Speaker 2: Oh? I knew them very well, Albert, especially Albert, and

978
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 2: I I got along with Albert. You know, I've watched

979
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 2: some of the greatest managers in the world up close

980
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 2: and personally, and you know, watching people like Albert Grossman,

981
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 2: Peter Grant, watching these people in action, it's it's unbelievable.

982
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 2: It's like Albert was apples and oranges to a Peter Grant.

983
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 2: But Albert, when Todd got the house up in a

984
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 2: Lake Hill or Bearsville, Woodstock area, we were always over

985
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 2: at Albert's house. I remember little intimate dinners. I remember

986
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 2: one night it was me, Todd, Albert, and Paul Butterfield

987
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 2: and you know, the boys were talking and I sort

988
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 2: of felt like, well, why am I here? Because but

989
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 2: it was always my go to whenever I wanted to

990
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 2: get anybody's attention and get the topic off whatever deal

991
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 2: they were talking about. We'd start talking about aliens and

992
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 2: that brought Butterfield right in. Oh my god, yeah, Butterfield

993
01:03:57,440 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 2: wanted Oh he was all on it. He was like,

994
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 2: oh yeah, let's talk about it. You know, it was

995
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 2: it was my go to, so whenever I wanted to

996
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 2: really jab a conversation, I even used that trick when

997
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 2: I was at tea with Savador Dolli. You know, they

998
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 2: were all talking about a lot of stuff. I remember

999
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 2: being in the room with an Ocelot, his wife Gala,

1000
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 2: Truman Capoti, and a Mendelier And this was just from

1001
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 2: him inviting me to tea because I met him at

1002
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 2: the Saint Regis newsstand. We would go to the foreign

1003
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 2: news stand there at the Saint Regis to see our

1004
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 2: modeling pictures from Europe because it was one of the

1005
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 2: foreign news stands and he was living there. So that's

1006
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 2: how I met Savador Dolli. So when I say it

1007
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 2: about the Forrest Gump stuff, I mean it in the

1008
01:04:54,400 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 2: sense that, for some weird reason written in the Evans,

1009
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 2: for some I was meant to cross the paths of

1010
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 2: certain people whose paths that I crossed.

1011
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned Peter Grant along with Albert Roseman. He said,

1012
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 1: you learned about management? What did you learn seeing them

1013
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:18,920
Speaker 1: up close?

1014
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 2: Well, Peter Grant was ruthless. He was a very, very

1015
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 2: very large man, as you know. But you know that

1016
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 2: that organization used a lot of violence in their dealings

1017
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 2: with people that annoyed them, which was the opposite with Albert.

1018
01:05:36,080 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 2: Albert liked to get together and celebrate through food and gathering.

1019
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 2: He even had tps on his property, you know, tpiece

1020
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:49,440
Speaker 2: that you could go sit in and meditate and smoke cash.

1021
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 2: And it's different worlds. When you were around Peter Grant

1022
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,000
Speaker 2: or around that zeppelin, it was like hanging out with

1023
01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 2: a bunch of gangsters. You know the van were you

1024
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 2: know De Niro and Pacino and you know they were

1025
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 2: the it it's hard to put into words. When you

1026
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: hung around with Albert, it was like being at the

1027
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 2: king's castle. You would go hang out at his world

1028
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 2: and his compound, at his beautiful house, and beautiful food

1029
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:21,160
Speaker 2: would be served.

1030
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: And how about did you see any of his negotiation

1031
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 1: business techniques?

1032
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:28,960
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I would see the way he treated

1033
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 2: his artists, and I remember, did I ever see him

1034
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 2: actually negotiate deals or anything? Oh?

1035
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 1: You know, you see these people in action, they talk business.

1036
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 1: Did you learn any lessons from Albert?

1037
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 2: What I learned from Albert is is he had a

1038
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 2: baritone kind of voice, and he spoke very softly. But

1039
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 2: when Albert wanted to make a point, and when Albert

1040
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 2: wanted to really get his Albert and this out there,

1041
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 2: suddenly the voice would become like that and it would

1042
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 2: get very strong and powerful. I mean, just to show

1043
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 2: you the kind of manager he was. I was pregnant

1044
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 2: with live and I was in one of our vehicles,

1045
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 2: I think the jeep. It had snowed, and I Todd

1046
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 2: was on the road as usual, and I was driving

1047
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 2: down mean Collo Road with my friend Jean, and suddenly

1048
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 2: another car came from the other direction, driving way too

1049
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 2: fast and to be in the snow. Thank god, I

1050
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 2: was more in my lane, even though it was a

1051
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 2: narrow road. But of course we hit and they had

1052
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 2: their kid in the back of the car with no

1053
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 2: seat belt. Nothing but that was before anybody wore seat

1054
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 2: belts anyway, And I just remember getting out of the

1055
01:07:57,520 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 2: car and I was pretty shook up. Everybody was, you know,

1056
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 2: Jean was especially worried about me because I was pregnant,

1057
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 2: but I was okay. Everybody was okay, but the cars

1058
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 2: were really fucked up, and I just remember having my

1059
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 2: wits about me, and I just went to the first house,

1060
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:16,640
Speaker 2: which was right there, and I called Albert. Because we

1061
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:18,600
Speaker 2: didn't have cell phones and stuff, then I had to

1062
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 2: like get on somebody's landline and call him. And I

1063
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 2: told him, Albert, I've just had an accident on mean Collo.

1064
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 2: He was there so quickly like that, and he had

1065
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:38,760
Speaker 2: me hustled off and I said, Albert, he goes, just

1066
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 2: go home. I'll handle everything. And he had a big

1067
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,960
Speaker 2: pile of money and he had somebody take me and

1068
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 2: my girlfriend off in another car. And that's the last

1069
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 2: I ever saw of that accident. Wow.

1070
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 1: So in any event, let's you know, you're Todd at

1071
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 1: the time is working a lot. He's putting out a

1072
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: lot of albums, and he's also producing a lot of

1073
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 1: albums successfully. To what degree was he telling you about them,

1074
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 1: and did you have input or did he keep that

1075
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 1: totally separate from you?

1076
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 2: Oh? No, No, We always talked about his music because see,

1077
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,640
Speaker 2: I loved it. When he played me the stuff he

1078
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:26,480
Speaker 2: was coming up with for Wizard or True Star, everybody

1079
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 2: hated it, and they were giving him a lot of shit,

1080
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 2: and they were telling him that it was too much

1081
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 2: and that it was going over everybody's head and that

1082
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 2: it was not the right kind of follow up to

1083
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:42,639
Speaker 2: something anything. But when he would play me the stuff,

1084
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,840
Speaker 2: I thought it was incredible. I loved it. So he

1085
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 2: wasn't getting any shit from me. I loved utopia. And

1086
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:56,360
Speaker 2: when he took me to see that Sphinx and that

1087
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 2: hangar in Kingston, New York, it was so big it

1088
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 2: had to be an an airplane hangar. And he used

1089
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,760
Speaker 2: to fly off that thing every night, upside down with

1090
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 2: a with no harness, just raw. And so I supported it.

1091
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 2: Even though it people thought I enabled it. Instead of

1092
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 2: that I supported it, they thought I enabled it. See

1093
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 2: that you people that are making money off of you

1094
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 2: always want to have somebody to blame if the money

1095
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 2: isn't going to go the way they they they hope

1096
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 2: it goes because of a change in direction. And with Todd.

1097
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 2: This was an extreme change in direction from what he

1098
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 2: had been doing previously, you know, as as the Todd

1099
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,680
Speaker 2: Rungren solo records, and and then suddenly to come back

1100
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 2: with a Wizard or True Star and then to form Utopia.

1101
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 2: It was it was a lot of pressure, a lot

1102
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 2: of pressure for him. He went through a lot, but

1103
01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:09,679
Speaker 2: he was producing big records, so he was making money.

1104
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:12,680
Speaker 2: You know, he was producing Grand Funk Railroad, he was

1105
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 2: producing Hall and Oates, he was producing records. He produced Fanny.

1106
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 2: I remember that was fun. I remember when he produced Fanny.

1107
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 2: But you know, he was really in demand as a producer,

1108
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 2: so he had the money and the freedom, you know,

1109
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:33,760
Speaker 2: to have a nice townhouse on Horatio Street, which we had,

1110
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:37,679
Speaker 2: and a home up in the Woodstock area.

1111
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 1: Did you ever go to the studio Did he discuss

1112
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 1: any of the projects when he was recording other people?

1113
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:49,639
Speaker 2: Yes, I always did, always, and I would sometimes even

1114
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 2: fall asleep under the council and you know, I'd had

1115
01:11:56,320 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 2: pillows and blankets. Yeah. Todd had a studio house where

1116
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 2: the drums were downstairs, but the control room was upstairs.

1117
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:09,720
Speaker 2: So when he recorded by himself, he would have to

1118
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 2: go down and play the drums and run back upstairs

1119
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 2: because he didn't have an engineer there. So at one

1120
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 2: point he taught me how to stop and start the

1121
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 2: tape machine so that he didn't have to keep running

1122
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 2: up there. So there were times when he would, you know,

1123
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 2: have me do that, that would be my duty. Like

1124
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 2: he would do a track and I would have the

1125
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 2: headphones on and he would tell me hit the button,

1126
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 2: hit the button. So yeah, I mean I was definitely

1127
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 2: around for I saw a lot. Absolutely, I saw a lot.

1128
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 2: I was around for a lot of conceptual stuff. I

1129
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 2: was definitely around for a lot of the makeup and

1130
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 2: the costumes and some of the crazy stuff Nicky Nichols

1131
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 2: came up with. Yeah, I was. I was a part

1132
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 2: of a part of it all.

1133
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:04,840
Speaker 1: So how did it end?

1134
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:08,519
Speaker 2: Not? Well, well, I don't even I don't want to

1135
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 2: be so general, just from a lack of complete clarity.

1136
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 2: I mean, we just didn't really communicate with each other properly.

1137
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:25,200
Speaker 2: We were so young, and we were both very unfaithful,

1138
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 2: and I think my reasons for being unfaithful were very

1139
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:35,559
Speaker 2: different from his. But he met somebody that he fell

1140
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,559
Speaker 2: in love with, and then I and I met somebody

1141
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 2: that I fell in love with and it we drifted apart.

1142
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 2: And but yet the person that I fell in love

1143
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 2: with was just crazy off the rails. It was to

1144
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 2: the point where I couldn't handle it. It was too

1145
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 2: much of the white pro moving and marching powder. It

1146
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 2: was just too many drugs, too much, too much, too

1147
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:08,559
Speaker 2: much that lifestyle, that Aerosmith lifestyle at that point in history.

1148
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:13,720
Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like it. And people say, well,

1149
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,360
Speaker 2: what about the Rolling Stones, And I'll say, you know,

1150
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 2: it was very different because I always knew. Notice that

1151
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 2: the boys and the Stones they sort of had their

1152
01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 2: They knew when to stop. Maybe not Keith, but Mick

1153
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 2: certainly did. Mick was always very smart about when to

1154
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:34,599
Speaker 2: make an exit, about when not to do that next line,

1155
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 2: about when not to do that shot. You know, Mick

1156
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 2: was very always practical. There was no practicality within the

1157
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:45,599
Speaker 2: Aerosmith camp at that point. So I was very scared.

1158
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 2: And at this point, Todd had really become the father,

1159
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:51,519
Speaker 2: the father figure. That's why I called him the Todd Father.

1160
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 2: And he took me back. I know he wants to

1161
01:14:57,479 --> 01:14:58,680
Speaker 2: blame me for that, but.

1162
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 1: But wait, wait, literally, how did he take you back?

1163
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:06,479
Speaker 1: You were living in a different place.

1164
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:10,720
Speaker 2: Well not really. I hadn't moved out. My stuff was

1165
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 2: all still in our houses. I wasn't we weren't separated

1166
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 2: yet or anything like that. He basically, you know I

1167
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:27,760
Speaker 2: I had lived, went back to Woodstock with him. He

1168
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:31,479
Speaker 2: we got rid of the house on Horatio Street, and

1169
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:37,599
Speaker 2: he pretty much told me. He told me about about Karen,

1170
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:41,760
Speaker 2: about Karen Darvin, the girl that was the girl he

1171
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 2: had fallen in love with. It was Bruce Springsteen's former girlfriend,

1172
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:49,719
Speaker 2: and he had met her in Dallas, and he told

1173
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 2: me about her, and it just it just became extremely

1174
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:05,439
Speaker 2: difficult because it felt to me like, well, if you

1175
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 2: had fallen in love with this woman while I was pregnant,

1176
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 2: why didn't we pursue any doubts about paternity? There's that

1177
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:22,040
Speaker 2: word again, before all these grand decisions were made. I

1178
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:25,000
Speaker 2: gave him the opportunity when I was seven months pregnant.

1179
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 2: I said, I'm very concerned that this is going to

1180
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 2: be a decision that you're gonna that's going to become

1181
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:40,880
Speaker 2: a problem. I was concerned, and he seemed to want

1182
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:47,000
Speaker 2: to take on this mammoth responsibility. He nobody ever tried

1183
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:49,719
Speaker 2: to fool him or tell him that Live was his baby.

1184
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 2: Nobody ever did that that. I don't know how that

1185
01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 2: rumor got started or why people say that, but nobody

1186
01:16:56,040 --> 01:17:00,840
Speaker 2: lied to him and said, Todd, you know it's your child.

1187
01:17:01,040 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 2: That That's not how it happened. He knew where I

1188
01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:07,719
Speaker 2: was for two months, he knew I was with Steven.

1189
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 2: He knew that. So when I came home scared to

1190
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:15,080
Speaker 2: death and he took me back, he knew all of that.

1191
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:20,800
Speaker 2: So chronologically it's really impossible for him to have been

1192
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:25,679
Speaker 2: the father. Does that make any sense? And what happened

1193
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:30,320
Speaker 2: was I think whatever reasons he had for wanting to

1194
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:34,400
Speaker 2: take that step, I don't know if it was for control.

1195
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 2: I don't know if he was really concerned about Live's

1196
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:39,720
Speaker 2: well being. I don't know if he still loved me.

1197
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:42,920
Speaker 2: There's probably a variety of reasons, and probably a little

1198
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 2: bit of all of the above. But as soon as

1199
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:51,640
Speaker 2: Live was born, it it was obvious this wasn't going

1200
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 2: to work, and it was obvious that he loved somebody else,

1201
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:59,680
Speaker 2: and it was very very obvious that and he had

1202
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:03,599
Speaker 2: He got me an apartment. Patty Smith, of all people,

1203
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:07,839
Speaker 2: helped him pick it out because he wanted her guidance,

1204
01:18:07,960 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 2: what do you think Bobe would like and what would

1205
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:12,760
Speaker 2: be a good apartment to raise a baby in, you know,

1206
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:17,600
Speaker 2: and found me an apartment on fifty eighth Street. He

1207
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:20,280
Speaker 2: certainly wanted to get me out of that downtown, didn't he.

1208
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:26,479
Speaker 2: So there I was on fifty eighth Street suddenly, and

1209
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,120
Speaker 2: Karen was living with him. I mean, it really did

1210
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:33,719
Speaker 2: happen that fast, and Live was being raised as his child.

1211
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 2: And believe me, Stephen and I made very many feeble

1212
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 2: attempts at trying to, you know, fix it or just

1213
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 2: get it all down, you know what I mean, to

1214
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:58,360
Speaker 2: at least confirm paternity, even a simple blood test anything.

1215
01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:02,479
Speaker 2: You know. He had his blood drawn and I had

1216
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:06,479
Speaker 2: my blood drawn. But this is way before fancy DNA tests.

1217
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 2: She has my blood type, so there was you know,

1218
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,400
Speaker 2: we couldn't say, oh, well, this solves the problem. In

1219
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:17,479
Speaker 2: my eyes, there was no problem. I knew, everybody knew,

1220
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 2: and everybody was living in this kind of fantasy. And

1221
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:25,360
Speaker 2: I'm not judging, and I'm not saying obviously, everything happens

1222
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:28,960
Speaker 2: for a reason. And whatever happened, look how Live turned out.

1223
01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:34,840
Speaker 2: She's an amazing, self sufficient, beautiful human being. And she

1224
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 2: is Stephen Tyler's child, but she's also in some ways

1225
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:45,040
Speaker 2: Todd's child physically. I don't think you could dispute that

1226
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 2: either one of them could possibly be her daddy. And

1227
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:54,519
Speaker 2: that's fine. That's her spiritual journey, that's her karmic voyage

1228
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:59,120
Speaker 2: with those two people that she loves dearly. They're both

1229
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:02,360
Speaker 2: her beloved father's that's the way she looks at it.

1230
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:05,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so they gave you this apartment, what are you

1231
01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 1: living on?

1232
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:09,960
Speaker 2: Well, of course he was. He was giving me money,

1233
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 2: you know he was. He was giving me an allowance,

1234
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:18,960
Speaker 2: he was paying the rent, and I picked up a

1235
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 2: little modeling again. I started to I did my first

1236
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:25,599
Speaker 2: modeling job when when I was six weeks old.

1237
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:29,640
Speaker 1: And uh, how long did he how long did he

1238
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:30,800
Speaker 1: continue to fit the bill?

1239
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:34,880
Speaker 2: Well, if you put the bill that apartment. My my

1240
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:38,320
Speaker 2: mother came and cleared me out of that apartment because

1241
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 2: she just felt that I was not that I needed

1242
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:46,639
Speaker 2: some stability. I mean, my my family was very supportive

1243
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:49,320
Speaker 2: and loving. I have a very very loving family. I'm

1244
01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 2: very lucky in that respect. So we closed down that

1245
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 2: apartment and I moved up to my family's cottage and Maine.

1246
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:04,720
Speaker 2: So odd. What he was paying for was at that

1247
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 2: point it was really I didn't have nanny's you know,

1248
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:14,840
Speaker 2: I didn't have any big expenses at that point. But

1249
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:18,720
Speaker 2: he always helped, you know, he was never I have

1250
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 2: to say, he was never stingy. He was never mean

1251
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 2: about it. You know, he was helpful, he was sweet,

1252
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:29,400
Speaker 2: He wanted the best for live.

1253
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:33,400
Speaker 1: Okay, But she gets older by the minute, and it's years.

1254
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 1: She's in high school, she's about to graduate from high school.

1255
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 1: Is he still helping?

1256
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:43,680
Speaker 2: No, not at this point by the time, by the

1257
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:51,920
Speaker 2: time she was I'm trying to get the timeline straight here.

1258
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 2: The paternity thing became finalized when she was fourteen, So is.

1259
01:21:58,600 --> 01:22:01,080
Speaker 1: That the line of demarques He paid before then and

1260
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:04,919
Speaker 1: didn't pay after, That's correct, But he did did Steven

1261
01:22:05,080 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 1: pay after?

1262
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:11,160
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, And Stephen also paid for her private schooling

1263
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:16,639
Speaker 2: for that last year before anything was confirmed. Stephen picked

1264
01:22:16,720 --> 01:22:20,479
Speaker 2: up that. But yes, no, Todd. For about a year

1265
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:26,639
Speaker 2: before everything was public and confirmed, Todd had stopped paying

1266
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:30,840
Speaker 2: for anything. And then Stephen, Yes, Stephen did pick up

1267
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:34,600
Speaker 2: the ball very willingly, as a matter of fact. And

1268
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:37,600
Speaker 2: then the court of course ordered him to pay a

1269
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:40,920
Speaker 2: certain amount of child support, but Live started making her

1270
01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 2: own money when she was fifteen, and by the time

1271
01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 2: she was sixteen seventeen, she was extremely wealthy, and I

1272
01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:55,439
Speaker 2: was putting everything away for her and keeping her safe.

1273
01:22:56,280 --> 01:23:02,160
Speaker 2: When she graduated, she was a millionaire. Just nobody could

1274
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:05,439
Speaker 2: take advantage of her. That's where I came in. I

1275
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 2: was her personal pitbull, and I'm very proud of the

1276
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:14,679
Speaker 2: job I did, and I'm also I'm very very happy

1277
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:18,880
Speaker 2: with the way she maneuvered the emotional part of all

1278
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:19,120
Speaker 2: of this.

1279
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:24,880
Speaker 1: Okay, a rock chick moves to Maine, that's night in

1280
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 1: the day, especially then from New York City. What's that

1281
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:29,160
Speaker 1: like for you?

1282
01:23:30,200 --> 01:23:34,080
Speaker 2: I started a band, you know, my record came out

1283
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:37,920
Speaker 2: that Rick Okasik and Rick Darren's You're Produced. I started

1284
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 2: a band called The B Sides, and nineteen eighty I

1285
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 2: was doing my first show, and then before I knew it,

1286
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,519
Speaker 2: I was making a living off plane, you know, enough

1287
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:51,120
Speaker 2: to pay my rent and enough, you know, enough to

1288
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:58,559
Speaker 2: get by. I mean, I wasn't living some extreme life,

1289
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:02,080
Speaker 2: but I still had all my connections from the industry.

1290
01:24:02,120 --> 01:24:06,240
Speaker 2: I still got invited to every wonderful party and still

1291
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:10,240
Speaker 2: felt very included in my industry. But I didn't mind

1292
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:13,840
Speaker 2: buckling under and really getting to work and do it,

1293
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:18,719
Speaker 2: and I obviously enjoyed it. You know, I enjoy writing.

1294
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:22,360
Speaker 2: I enjoy writing songs. I enjoy performing live. Grew up

1295
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:24,920
Speaker 2: with all of that. Some of her greatest memories they're

1296
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:28,599
Speaker 2: going to rehearsals with me and going to my gigs

1297
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:29,800
Speaker 2: when she was a little thing.

1298
01:24:30,479 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 1: Okay, you've been at it for forty years. Everybody from

1299
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:38,080
Speaker 1: our demo is certainly aware of who you are and

1300
01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:42,080
Speaker 1: that you make music. You have never broken through huge

1301
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:47,040
Speaker 1: commercially such that other people are aware of you. You're

1302
01:24:47,080 --> 01:24:51,200
Speaker 1: going to be seventy. I'm seventy already. Does this disappoint you?

1303
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:55,000
Speaker 1: How do you metabolize the fact that you didn't break

1304
01:24:55,080 --> 01:24:57,360
Speaker 1: through on a certain level of success.

1305
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 2: Well, I think that I I have a lot to

1306
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:05,680
Speaker 2: bring to the table for that very reason. You know,

1307
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:09,559
Speaker 2: success comes in many forms. You can look at success

1308
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 2: as being financial or status related, or you can look

1309
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 2: at success as being finishing good work, getting good work done,

1310
01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:27,519
Speaker 2: doing good work. Your work is your name, and I

1311
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 2: feel that the work I've done has been good work

1312
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 2: and I'm proud of it. I've written two books. I

1313
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:36,519
Speaker 2: was a New York Times bestseller with my first book,

1314
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:43,280
Speaker 2: and I've written probably close to three hundred songs at

1315
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:47,880
Speaker 2: this point. I've made tons of records, you know that.

1316
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:52,680
Speaker 2: And I've made singles. And I do it because I

1317
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:57,120
Speaker 2: love it. It's a passion and I have fans. As

1318
01:25:57,200 --> 01:26:01,160
Speaker 2: long as I can pack a room, I'm okay. I

1319
01:26:01,240 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 2: don't have to see my name at the top of

1320
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:09,360
Speaker 2: the charts to feel successful. And you know, when I

1321
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:13,040
Speaker 2: went to New York for my last book and did

1322
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:17,560
Speaker 2: the honor at the National Arts Club, just to be

1323
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:21,519
Speaker 2: touted by the New York Times and to have the

1324
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 2: people that I've known since I was eighteen in that audience,

1325
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:29,920
Speaker 2: it made me know that I'm doing good work and

1326
01:26:31,560 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 2: that has given me the greatest pleasure. And I don't

1327
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:39,559
Speaker 2: think this journey is over. I really don't. Who knows

1328
01:26:39,640 --> 01:26:42,960
Speaker 2: what might happen, you know, anything can happen. I am

1329
01:26:43,120 --> 01:26:47,280
Speaker 2: so open to the possibilities of breaking rules. I mean,

1330
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:51,400
Speaker 2: speaking of breaking rules, look at Tina Turner. Everybody told

1331
01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 2: her it was over, and look at the comeback she had.

1332
01:26:55,960 --> 01:27:00,559
Speaker 2: And the thing that that's important about the message I'm

1333
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:04,240
Speaker 2: bringing to the table. It's not the same as like Paulina,

1334
01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:09,840
Speaker 2: who's like, Okay, I'm hot and I'm almost sixty. You know,

1335
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:13,960
Speaker 2: deal with it. It's exciting to see somebody have that

1336
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 2: kind of confidence. I'm trying to give something different. I mean,

1337
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:22,720
Speaker 2: if I could take my clothes off right now and

1338
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 2: look as good as Paulina does in a bikini, I might.

1339
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:29,320
Speaker 2: I might do that for shits and giggles. But right now,

1340
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:34,080
Speaker 2: what I'm enjoying is continuing the chain of good work.

1341
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:37,439
Speaker 2: And all the projects are that are coming my way.

1342
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:41,400
Speaker 2: There's a treatment for a series, there's somebody that wants

1343
01:27:41,439 --> 01:27:43,920
Speaker 2: to make a documentary of my life. There's somebody that

1344
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:46,640
Speaker 2: wants to make a movie of my life. There's so

1345
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:50,960
Speaker 2: many things that are in the works right now that

1346
01:27:51,080 --> 01:27:56,120
Speaker 2: who knows, maybe my music will be reborn a La

1347
01:27:56,760 --> 01:28:01,000
Speaker 2: Sugarman or something in a soundtrack. You know. I just

1348
01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:04,479
Speaker 2: want to be proud of the work I do and

1349
01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:08,080
Speaker 2: if someday it gets acknowledged, the heck.

1350
01:28:08,720 --> 01:28:11,720
Speaker 1: Okay, so what do you live in on now? Financially?

1351
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,920
Speaker 2: Well, what do I live on? I have my Social

1352
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:18,760
Speaker 2: Security and I'm kidding no. I live on the work

1353
01:28:18,800 --> 01:28:21,920
Speaker 2: I do, you know, the gigs I play, the performances,

1354
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:26,280
Speaker 2: I do the appearances, I make, the autograph sessions, I

1355
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:32,479
Speaker 2: do autograph conventions. I have a husband that co earns

1356
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:38,720
Speaker 2: with me. And the house that I'm in was just

1357
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:44,360
Speaker 2: an accumulation of everything I've ever done. It's just everything accumulated.

1358
01:28:45,080 --> 01:28:50,800
Speaker 2: And I don't really I don't work a nine to

1359
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:54,120
Speaker 2: five job, but I consider the hours I put in

1360
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:59,879
Speaker 2: to writing and creating and doing things like this podcast.

1361
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:03,920
Speaker 2: That's my work. That's what I do. And when I

1362
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:06,840
Speaker 2: can make money, when I can make good money, I

1363
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:09,880
Speaker 2: accept the invitation to make good money. I enjoy it.

1364
01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:15,160
Speaker 2: I do a little bit of consulting. I know that

1365
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:21,439
Speaker 2: my knowledge about the industry is one of the things

1366
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:25,679
Speaker 2: that's kept me afloat when young people that are entering

1367
01:29:25,800 --> 01:29:29,920
Speaker 2: this business have parents that might be scared or worried

1368
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:32,040
Speaker 2: about their futures or how they're going to handle this.

1369
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 2: I am hired as a creative consultant and I can help.

1370
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:41,960
Speaker 2: And I don't mind signing in das and having to

1371
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:44,560
Speaker 2: keep my mouth shut about because a couple of the

1372
01:29:44,600 --> 01:29:47,719
Speaker 2: people I've worked with have gone on to become extremely famous.

1373
01:29:48,479 --> 01:29:52,639
Speaker 2: So I'm very proud. I get to be secretly proud,

1374
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:57,639
Speaker 2: and just because everybody doesn't know about all the stuff

1375
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:00,960
Speaker 2: you do in your life. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be proud.

1376
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,280
Speaker 2: And you know the fact that I can go to

1377
01:30:04,360 --> 01:30:09,800
Speaker 2: Trader Joe's and buy my own groceries, and you know

1378
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 2: that it's a good feeling.

1379
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:22,640
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back a step Rick, Okay, sick. You

1380
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:26,599
Speaker 1: become friends, and he's a very close friend. You're talking

1381
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:29,840
Speaker 1: the book about, You're inebriated, and he drives you from

1382
01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 1: Boston to Maine. Ultimately, in retrospect, I'm reading the book

1383
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:38,560
Speaker 1: at the time. He is married and has children. He

1384
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:41,520
Speaker 1: ultimately jumps ship for Paulina.

1385
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1386
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:45,759
Speaker 1: Do you think he was calling you from overseas producing

1387
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:49,280
Speaker 1: your records that secretly he wanted to be with you?

1388
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 2: Well, you know, my mother certainly thought that, and so

1389
01:30:56,200 --> 01:31:02,439
Speaker 2: did several of my friends. But I think that I

1390
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:08,160
Speaker 2: was in denial. If that was his intention, he would

1391
01:31:08,160 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 2: write me beautiful poems too. I have beautiful I mean,

1392
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:19,200
Speaker 2: I have poems from him that became songs. And there

1393
01:31:19,280 --> 01:31:24,240
Speaker 2: may have been some unrequated desire there, but he never

1394
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:30,400
Speaker 2: pushed himself on me. He never was Maybe he was

1395
01:31:30,479 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 2: waiting to see if I would bite. I don't know,

1396
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 2: but I never did. I didn't want to screw it up.

1397
01:31:40,479 --> 01:31:45,240
Speaker 2: Relationships always seemed to screw up, and I mean when

1398
01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:48,519
Speaker 2: I started to date Rod Stewart, it screwed up. When

1399
01:31:48,600 --> 01:31:52,559
Speaker 2: we were friends, we had a blast, We would run

1400
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:55,120
Speaker 2: around together and have the greatest time, and then as

1401
01:31:55,160 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 2: soon as we became lovers, it just ruined our relation

1402
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:04,120
Speaker 2: relationship And I still to this day, I think Rod

1403
01:32:04,160 --> 01:32:06,479
Speaker 2: Stewart is one of the most talented, lovely men I've

1404
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:10,760
Speaker 2: ever known. But I wasn't the right girl for him,

1405
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:12,760
Speaker 2: and we weren't right for each other. We were good

1406
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 2: as mates. That's what we worked as with Rick. I

1407
01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:23,280
Speaker 2: just to have somebody believe in me like that and

1408
01:32:23,720 --> 01:32:27,519
Speaker 2: not be trying to get in my pants. I wasn't

1409
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:32,040
Speaker 2: gonna let that change. For one minute. I was in heaven.

1410
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:35,559
Speaker 2: It was like being taken seriously. It was like working

1411
01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:39,080
Speaker 2: with a director that you admire and he's not interested

1412
01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:41,679
Speaker 2: in you for anything but the role you're gonna play.

1413
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:45,639
Speaker 1: Okay. In the book, you make a big point about

1414
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 1: identifying and recording the Wild One Forever off the first

1415
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:52,800
Speaker 1: Tom Petty album, and you do a great version of that,

1416
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:55,840
Speaker 1: and it's now been reissued by the same company that

1417
01:32:56,160 --> 01:33:01,040
Speaker 1: has your new book, Rebel Soul. So tell me the

1418
01:33:01,160 --> 01:33:03,839
Speaker 1: story of how you got hooked and you ultimately recorded

1419
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:04,280
Speaker 1: that track.

1420
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 2: Well, I was one of the lucky people that was

1421
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:13,800
Speaker 2: at the bottom line for those Tom Petty shows, the

1422
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:19,080
Speaker 2: multiple shows that he did. I'll just never forget it

1423
01:33:19,080 --> 01:33:21,680
Speaker 2: in my life. You know, I've not been able to

1424
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:24,240
Speaker 2: meet Bob Dylan a whole lot of times in my life.

1425
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:27,519
Speaker 2: Every time I've met him, it's just been in passing, like,

1426
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:32,800
Speaker 2: you know, Hi Bob, and hi baby. Yeah, I read

1427
01:33:32,840 --> 01:33:35,720
Speaker 2: about you and Cream, you know, you know whatever, just

1428
01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:38,400
Speaker 2: small talk. But this was the night where I was

1429
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:40,599
Speaker 2: backstaying let's stop there for a second.

1430
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:43,200
Speaker 1: Is that a true story? You're just throwing them off.

1431
01:33:43,479 --> 01:33:45,280
Speaker 1: Would Bob Dylan read Cream?

1432
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:50,519
Speaker 2: I don't know if he really did, or if he

1433
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:53,120
Speaker 2: just said that to be funny. I mean, you never

1434
01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:54,200
Speaker 2: know with Bob Dylan.

1435
01:33:54,400 --> 01:33:56,800
Speaker 1: So he actually said I saw you in Cream, that

1436
01:33:56,960 --> 01:33:58,919
Speaker 1: means you had to be paying attention somewhere.

1437
01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:02,920
Speaker 2: Well, you know, oh, you never know. You just never

1438
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:08,600
Speaker 2: know with people like that, they're very mysterious. You just

1439
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:12,720
Speaker 2: never know. One of the first letters I got from

1440
01:34:12,840 --> 01:34:19,400
Speaker 2: Costello cited something that was from Cream that he had

1441
01:34:19,479 --> 01:34:24,320
Speaker 2: written Rick that he had read. So you know, these guys,

1442
01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:29,000
Speaker 2: they'll surprise you sometimes. You know Dylan, you know when

1443
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:31,600
Speaker 2: you find out that he makes iron works and is

1444
01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:34,760
Speaker 2: one of the best painters on earth, it's shocking when

1445
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:39,640
Speaker 2: you see how brilliant he is all around. But the

1446
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:44,559
Speaker 2: whole thing with the Tom Petty thing, I'm kidding, I'm

1447
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:45,680
Speaker 2: losing my train of thought.

1448
01:34:45,720 --> 01:34:49,120
Speaker 1: Oh you're perfect. You brought it back. I give you credit.

1449
01:34:51,360 --> 01:34:55,040
Speaker 2: Well with the Tom Petty thing, it was just being there. Well,

1450
01:34:55,080 --> 01:34:58,880
Speaker 2: that was the night I was standing and Bob was

1451
01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:01,000
Speaker 2: sitting on one of the you know how small that

1452
01:35:01,200 --> 01:35:05,120
Speaker 2: backstage and line was, and you had just that tiny

1453
01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:09,439
Speaker 2: little area that had a bunch of the equipment boxes

1454
01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 2: and everything, and Bob was sort of sitting on one

1455
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:15,920
Speaker 2: and he was gonna watch I think he was going

1456
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:18,439
Speaker 2: to watch the band from there. And I remember Grace

1457
01:35:18,560 --> 01:35:22,160
Speaker 2: Slick was there that night too. Everybody was very curious

1458
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 2: about this Tom Petty kid. You know, this this Southern

1459
01:35:26,080 --> 01:35:31,400
Speaker 2: boy with the best hair and with the draw And

1460
01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:33,719
Speaker 2: I just remember Bob turning to me and he goes,

1461
01:35:34,600 --> 01:35:36,160
Speaker 2: what am I doing? Do you want to sit here

1462
01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:40,800
Speaker 2: on my box? And he goes it seems to be

1463
01:35:40,920 --> 01:35:44,160
Speaker 2: the only seat, and I said, nope, I'm going to

1464
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:46,519
Speaker 2: go in the audience. I said I want to see

1465
01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:51,200
Speaker 2: this from the front, and he said that's the way

1466
01:35:51,320 --> 01:35:53,439
Speaker 2: to do it. But he didn't go to the front.

1467
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:58,519
Speaker 2: But I just remember the exchange him going, do you

1468
01:35:58,600 --> 01:36:00,960
Speaker 2: want my box? He was gonna give me his seat,

1469
01:36:01,400 --> 01:36:05,479
Speaker 2: which was very very sweet and very gallant. But that's it.

1470
01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:08,160
Speaker 2: My exchange is with Bob Doll.

1471
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:10,479
Speaker 1: But we're talking about the wild One forever.

1472
01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:14,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyway, I saw Tom Petty perform that night,

1473
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:22,920
Speaker 2: and when I saw him do that song, it just

1474
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:25,880
Speaker 2: it resonated with me. It was it just grabbed me.

1475
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:30,360
Speaker 2: It grabbed me. And I don't even know if it

1476
01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:32,600
Speaker 2: was on a record yet. I'm not sure because I

1477
01:36:32,680 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 2: can't remember the order of the records. I just remember

1478
01:36:35,960 --> 01:36:36,920
Speaker 2: what year this was.

1479
01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:40,200
Speaker 1: That was nineteen seventy seven in the record, it was the.

1480
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:43,599
Speaker 2: Fall of seventy seven at the bottom line, right, Yeah,

1481
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:46,760
Speaker 2: because Live was just a little baby, she was just

1482
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:52,240
Speaker 2: a couple of months old and he met her. But

1483
01:36:54,479 --> 01:36:56,600
Speaker 2: it was when I actually got the records and I

1484
01:36:56,680 --> 01:37:01,120
Speaker 2: started listening to Tom Petty's music that it rest It

1485
01:37:01,240 --> 01:37:03,200
Speaker 2: hit me the way the Everly Brothers. Did it hit

1486
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:06,439
Speaker 2: me in the way that that, you know, the first

1487
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:12,360
Speaker 2: time I heard that song, I will follow him, you.

1488
01:37:12,400 --> 01:37:15,360
Speaker 1: Know, followel little Peggy March.

1489
01:37:16,200 --> 01:37:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. And there just wasn't a bad

1490
01:37:21,280 --> 01:37:26,280
Speaker 2: song in the Tom Petty repertoire. There wasn't a dud

1491
01:37:26,479 --> 01:37:32,759
Speaker 2: in the bunch. And he just became my favorite songwriter.

1492
01:37:33,360 --> 01:37:36,639
Speaker 2: And I chose the Wild One because I could sing

1493
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:38,680
Speaker 2: the shit out of it. You know. I did a

1494
01:37:38,720 --> 01:37:41,439
Speaker 2: good job with it. And when I sang it for Rick,

1495
01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:47,840
Speaker 2: he cried, I mean not okay, sick, but Darrenger. Darrenger goes, okay, well,

1496
01:37:48,120 --> 01:37:50,280
Speaker 2: show me sing it for me. So I did an

1497
01:37:50,280 --> 01:37:53,559
Speaker 2: acappella version of it for him, and I made him

1498
01:37:53,560 --> 01:37:56,960
Speaker 2: actually get a little misty. He goes, okay, we'll record it.

1499
01:37:57,920 --> 01:38:00,280
Speaker 2: So I mean that's how I sell everything because I'm

1500
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:03,040
Speaker 2: not a real musician. I can play harmonica. I'm a

1501
01:38:03,080 --> 01:38:06,200
Speaker 2: good harmonica player. If you hand me a bass, I

1502
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:09,479
Speaker 2: can play a little bass. I can tink her on

1503
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 2: a piano a little bit. But my mic stand is

1504
01:38:13,200 --> 01:38:17,600
Speaker 2: my my my my piece. That is my instrument. And

1505
01:38:20,520 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 2: you know, the way I get my songs across is

1506
01:38:23,280 --> 01:38:26,560
Speaker 2: a cappella. I just Okay, the way I get a

1507
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:30,400
Speaker 2: riff across. If I want to get a riff across

1508
01:38:30,439 --> 01:38:33,360
Speaker 2: to my husband when we're writing a song, I'll just

1509
01:38:36,040 --> 01:38:39,200
Speaker 2: you know, I'll grunt it, or I'll snap it, or

1510
01:38:39,280 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 2: I'll sing it. You know, just do the melody.

1511
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:46,240
Speaker 1: Okay, you're talking. You're talking about your husband. How did

1512
01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:49,519
Speaker 1: you meet him? How did you decide to get married

1513
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:53,360
Speaker 1: for the first time? My understanding and why is it lasted?

1514
01:38:54,320 --> 01:38:59,160
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I met Jim. It's funny because we

1515
01:38:59,640 --> 01:39:03,240
Speaker 2: both had the same friends. We should have met years before.

1516
01:39:04,080 --> 01:39:06,400
Speaker 2: But you know, the thing about what I keep saying

1517
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:08,360
Speaker 2: is that you meet the people you're supposed to. When

1518
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 2: you're supposed to, you have the experiences, the life lessons,

1519
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:14,800
Speaker 2: the tragedies, all the stuff that goes along with all

1520
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:18,519
Speaker 2: the bullshit. We were both He was in a band

1521
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:22,920
Speaker 2: called Dost Dommen, but they had broken up, and he

1522
01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:26,600
Speaker 2: was quite the cult figure and very respected within the

1523
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:32,040
Speaker 2: musical community. Dust Doman Thurston Moore Sst. Subpop, you know,

1524
01:39:32,160 --> 01:39:36,400
Speaker 2: they they were quite the darlings of that sonic youth

1525
01:39:36,960 --> 01:39:42,200
Speaker 2: smashing pumpkins, you know, that whole crowd, and he was

1526
01:39:42,360 --> 01:39:45,040
Speaker 2: he was in a new band, and we were both

1527
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:49,000
Speaker 2: playing the Christmas party. Both of our bands were playing

1528
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:53,000
Speaker 2: the same Christmas party at the Continental, and we sort

1529
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:55,040
Speaker 2: of got a look at each other that night, and

1530
01:39:56,200 --> 01:39:59,080
Speaker 2: it's and I thought to myself, how come I've never

1531
01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:02,280
Speaker 2: seen him before? I mean, I noticed him, So I

1532
01:40:02,400 --> 01:40:05,240
Speaker 2: told Hilly Crystal. Hilly Crystal was like my father at

1533
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:07,880
Speaker 2: the time, and I remember going down to Sebe's and

1534
01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:10,120
Speaker 2: sitting with him at the desk and telling him all

1535
01:40:10,120 --> 01:40:12,679
Speaker 2: about this guy that I had seen across the room

1536
01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:16,479
Speaker 2: and I felt something for him, and it was so weird,

1537
01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:19,200
Speaker 2: And how come I've never met him before. He's known

1538
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:23,440
Speaker 2: Jesse Mallin since he was fifteen. He went to NYU

1539
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:27,679
Speaker 2: with Rick Rubin. He grew up in Rutherford, New Jersey.

1540
01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:32,120
Speaker 2: How Come I've not met this guy? And Hilly was like, oh,

1541
01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:34,920
Speaker 2: I don't know. He's pretty fabulous. He's one of the

1542
01:40:35,080 --> 01:40:38,080
Speaker 2: nicest guys I've ever met. Hilly knew exactly who he was,

1543
01:40:39,360 --> 01:40:42,200
Speaker 2: So I'm home. I lived on Mercer Street at that point.

1544
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 2: I lived on Mercer and Broadway, three hundred Mercer that

1545
01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:51,080
Speaker 2: building and my phone rang and it was Hilly calling

1546
01:40:51,160 --> 01:40:56,040
Speaker 2: me from CBGB's and Hilly goes, Boebe get down here.

1547
01:40:56,200 --> 01:40:59,080
Speaker 2: I literally had five minutes from Sebe's. I go, why

1548
01:40:59,160 --> 01:41:01,800
Speaker 2: what's going on? He goes, you know that guy, you like,

1549
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:05,200
Speaker 2: the one that you talked my head off about. He's

1550
01:41:05,280 --> 01:41:08,200
Speaker 2: here right now and he's gonna be going on in

1551
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:13,519
Speaker 2: about forty five minutes. He's in the club as Hilly,

1552
01:41:14,200 --> 01:41:19,120
Speaker 2: and so I think, So, of course, I just I

1553
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:22,000
Speaker 2: was already in my pajamas, and I threw on some

1554
01:41:22,280 --> 01:41:25,160
Speaker 2: jeans and a T shirt and a pink puffer coat,

1555
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:29,320
Speaker 2: and I went down there and I just you know,

1556
01:41:29,439 --> 01:41:37,200
Speaker 2: we met and we sort of we sort of clicked,

1557
01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:41,800
Speaker 2: you know, and he went off that night after his gig,

1558
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 2: and I thought, I'm niable I ever see him again,

1559
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't know, And and then it was

1560
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:53,639
Speaker 2: shortly after that that I went. It was really funny.

1561
01:41:53,680 --> 01:41:56,240
Speaker 2: I wasn't gonna go there, you know, I was going

1562
01:41:56,320 --> 01:41:59,120
Speaker 2: to stop into the Continental because I wanted to talk

1563
01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:03,000
Speaker 2: to Trigger about gig. So I went into the Continental

1564
01:42:03,400 --> 01:42:07,920
Speaker 2: and I look up and they're literally on stage. This

1565
01:42:08,200 --> 01:42:15,559
Speaker 2: boy now my husband man. And so I invited him

1566
01:42:15,560 --> 01:42:18,120
Speaker 2: over to my apartment because I literally lived across the

1567
01:42:18,479 --> 01:42:22,680
Speaker 2: you know Continental, CBS my apartment. I invited him over,

1568
01:42:23,160 --> 01:42:26,920
Speaker 2: and it's like he says, we were never a part

1569
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:31,400
Speaker 2: a day after that. We didn't consummate our relationship right away.

1570
01:42:31,479 --> 01:42:34,960
Speaker 2: It wasn't like we jumped into each other's arms. We courted,

1571
01:42:35,320 --> 01:42:38,519
Speaker 2: we did all the old fashioned stuff. We dated, We courted,

1572
01:42:39,400 --> 01:42:42,120
Speaker 2: and we fell in love, and he asked me to

1573
01:42:42,200 --> 01:42:47,000
Speaker 2: marry him on one knee in Atlantic City. We went

1574
01:42:47,040 --> 01:42:48,960
Speaker 2: to Atlantic City to get away for the weekend. He

1575
01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:52,920
Speaker 2: asked me to marry him, and then, you know, it

1576
01:42:53,080 --> 01:42:56,800
Speaker 2: was nine to eleven sort of changed people's headspace about

1577
01:42:56,920 --> 01:43:01,400
Speaker 2: New York. And so we moved to Maine because my

1578
01:43:01,479 --> 01:43:05,400
Speaker 2: family is up there now, including my mother, my mother

1579
01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:11,040
Speaker 2: who raised me in Virginia in North Carolina. So we

1580
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:17,559
Speaker 2: spent a few years there, and my book came out

1581
01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:21,839
Speaker 2: in two thousand and one, right before nine to eleven,

1582
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:26,560
Speaker 2: which was terrible because the whole book tour I was

1583
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:32,080
Speaker 2: doing and everything got canceled, of course, because understandably it

1584
01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:35,680
Speaker 2: was a horrible situation nine to eleven, as we can

1585
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:40,200
Speaker 2: all remember. And so we got married in two thousand

1586
01:43:40,240 --> 01:43:46,280
Speaker 2: and two after being engaged for about a year, and

1587
01:43:46,560 --> 01:43:49,680
Speaker 2: we've been together ever since. I've never been happier. I

1588
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:56,400
Speaker 2: have never felt more safe. Is that a bad word

1589
01:43:56,479 --> 01:44:01,400
Speaker 2: to use? We said, but I feel feels safe. And

1590
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:04,080
Speaker 2: my husband has an amazing work ethic. He has a

1591
01:44:04,160 --> 01:44:08,000
Speaker 2: great job. You know, he works hard, and we both

1592
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:11,479
Speaker 2: we both were both just hard workers. You know, I

1593
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:18,400
Speaker 2: I everything. I take everything seriously, even cleaning my house.

1594
01:44:18,760 --> 01:44:21,800
Speaker 2: You know, I take that very seriously, my floors. I

1595
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:24,920
Speaker 2: like cleaning my own house. I like cleaning my floors.

1596
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:28,679
Speaker 2: I like cleaning my bathroom. I like cooking beautiful meals.

1597
01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:32,800
Speaker 2: I like being there for my friends. You know. I

1598
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:36,760
Speaker 2: love doing the creative consultant work because I can do

1599
01:44:36,920 --> 01:44:41,160
Speaker 2: it sort of undercover. Nobody has to even know that

1600
01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:41,800
Speaker 2: I'm doing it.

1601
01:44:42,840 --> 01:44:48,479
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm talking to you now. You were a model.

1602
01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:53,240
Speaker 1: You don't appear to have any plastic surgery. How do

1603
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:56,640
Speaker 1: you feel about being an older woman in society.

1604
01:44:57,520 --> 01:45:00,160
Speaker 2: Well, I've had a little bit of plastic surgery. I'm

1605
01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:03,000
Speaker 2: not going to say that I've never gotten any botox

1606
01:45:03,200 --> 01:45:05,720
Speaker 2: or I didn't get a tweak here and there. But

1607
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:09,160
Speaker 2: I did all that stuff a long time ago. I

1608
01:45:09,320 --> 01:45:12,960
Speaker 2: did that when I was in my forties because that

1609
01:45:13,200 --> 01:45:16,240
Speaker 2: was when I still felt insecure. You know, about who

1610
01:45:16,360 --> 01:45:19,800
Speaker 2: I was. I don't think I really came into me

1611
01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:24,519
Speaker 2: until I was in my fifties and I just started

1612
01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:27,719
Speaker 2: to not care anymore. So if I start to droop

1613
01:45:27,760 --> 01:45:32,439
Speaker 2: a little or I'm okay with that, it doesn't scare me.

1614
01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:36,600
Speaker 2: It might have scared me when I was younger, but

1615
01:45:36,680 --> 01:45:40,720
Speaker 2: I'm not sure for what kind of reasons. Because I

1616
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:44,840
Speaker 2: feel like whatever changes we go through physically, we're all

1617
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:48,160
Speaker 2: in the same boat. We're all just walking each other home.

1618
01:45:48,360 --> 01:45:51,600
Speaker 2: Everybody's going to die, and everybody's going to get a

1619
01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:53,840
Speaker 2: droopy face, you know. I mean, it's just going to

1620
01:45:53,880 --> 01:45:56,560
Speaker 2: happen to all of us. So it's what we do

1621
01:45:57,200 --> 01:46:00,120
Speaker 2: with the time that we've got. And right now, with

1622
01:46:00,240 --> 01:46:03,439
Speaker 2: the time that I've got, I want to let not

1623
01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:08,000
Speaker 2: just women but men. I want all humans, people that

1624
01:46:08,120 --> 01:46:12,360
Speaker 2: identify as both men and women, people that identify as nothing.

1625
01:46:13,200 --> 01:46:16,320
Speaker 2: I want everybody to know that none of that should

1626
01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:18,760
Speaker 2: stop you from doing what you do, none of it

1627
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:23,200
Speaker 2: whatever brings you happiness. I sound like a meme, I

1628
01:46:23,280 --> 01:46:27,479
Speaker 2: sound like one of those Facebook affirmations or something, but

1629
01:46:29,040 --> 01:46:33,240
Speaker 2: it's true. I feel like I'm much more beneficial to

1630
01:46:33,400 --> 01:46:37,439
Speaker 2: women now at my age because I can actually say,

1631
01:46:38,960 --> 01:46:41,240
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not going to say that was a

1632
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:45,720
Speaker 2: bad choice or a good choice. You know, people go, oh,

1633
01:46:46,040 --> 01:46:48,200
Speaker 2: don't you wish you had married this guy? And don't

1634
01:46:48,200 --> 01:46:50,080
Speaker 2: you wish you had done this? And don't you wish

1635
01:46:50,120 --> 01:46:53,479
Speaker 2: you had had more children? And well, of course sometimes

1636
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:57,040
Speaker 2: I think about stuff like that, but I don't dwell

1637
01:46:57,160 --> 01:47:01,519
Speaker 2: on it. I've learned how to discipline myself. And as

1638
01:47:01,600 --> 01:47:04,559
Speaker 2: Tina would say, not your renguaekio, no, your ranguae kill.

1639
01:47:05,360 --> 01:47:10,680
Speaker 2: That helps. Chanting really helps you to focus. You know,

1640
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:16,960
Speaker 2: you don't even understand why, but I have to focus

1641
01:47:17,520 --> 01:47:22,360
Speaker 2: on bringing as much positivity, not just to myself but

1642
01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:24,439
Speaker 2: to others. That's important to me.

1643
01:47:24,800 --> 01:47:28,720
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to your more renegade years when

1644
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:32,960
Speaker 1: you weren't married. A lot of rock stars you see

1645
01:47:33,000 --> 01:47:36,759
Speaker 1: them with women, and the women are perceived as eye candy.

1646
01:47:37,400 --> 01:47:40,280
Speaker 1: I've certainly been around somewhere that has been the case.

1647
01:47:41,040 --> 01:47:45,040
Speaker 1: Needless to say, you are a very verbal woman, so

1648
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:48,720
Speaker 1: and a lot of these you know, unfortunately a lot

1649
01:47:48,760 --> 01:47:50,559
Speaker 1: of these rock stars speak through their music. They don't

1650
01:47:50,560 --> 01:47:52,479
Speaker 1: have much to say, but that certainly is not all

1651
01:47:52,560 --> 01:47:56,400
Speaker 1: of them. So you mention all of these iconic people,

1652
01:47:57,400 --> 01:48:02,599
Speaker 1: did they pursue you or were you constantly putting yourself

1653
01:48:02,640 --> 01:48:03,040
Speaker 1: out there?

1654
01:48:04,680 --> 01:48:08,760
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know how to put I was

1655
01:48:08,840 --> 01:48:11,880
Speaker 2: living the life that I was living. I was living

1656
01:48:11,920 --> 01:48:14,040
Speaker 2: the life of the girlfriend of a rock star. So

1657
01:48:14,120 --> 01:48:17,040
Speaker 2: of course you get invited to all the parties. I mean,

1658
01:48:17,160 --> 01:48:20,640
Speaker 2: everything that happens, you get invitations. I mean Todd and

1659
01:48:20,680 --> 01:48:23,920
Speaker 2: I used to get invitations delivered to our doors by courier.

1660
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:28,360
Speaker 2: And Liz Dringer was my best friend, and she was

1661
01:48:28,479 --> 01:48:31,280
Speaker 2: married to Rick Derringer, and she was a journalist and

1662
01:48:31,439 --> 01:48:35,040
Speaker 2: she was really plugged into the scene. Ron Delsner was

1663
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:39,160
Speaker 2: our best friend, and whenever there was a great show,

1664
01:48:40,160 --> 01:48:43,240
Speaker 2: Ron would call and say, you're on the list, meet

1665
01:48:43,320 --> 01:48:46,600
Speaker 2: me backstage at eight fifteen or whatever. You know, we

1666
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:51,920
Speaker 2: were living the lifestyle, and through living the lifestyle, a

1667
01:48:52,040 --> 01:48:59,360
Speaker 2: lot of relationships were formed and made. It's really it's

1668
01:48:59,439 --> 01:49:02,280
Speaker 2: not something you can plan, because.

1669
01:49:02,800 --> 01:49:06,000
Speaker 1: It's certainly not something to planned. You were in the area,

1670
01:49:06,160 --> 01:49:08,519
Speaker 1: But you have recited a litany and I don't mean

1671
01:49:08,560 --> 01:49:13,160
Speaker 1: that in any negative sense of household names. Right, So

1672
01:49:14,080 --> 01:49:17,519
Speaker 1: did they hear you were available or did you run

1673
01:49:17,640 --> 01:49:20,719
Speaker 1: into them and say, hey, I would be pursued.

1674
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:24,080
Speaker 2: I mean of course Mick Jagger. He pursues when when

1675
01:49:24,160 --> 01:49:28,200
Speaker 2: Mick wants to date you, he he brings out all

1676
01:49:28,280 --> 01:49:31,960
Speaker 2: the bells and whistles. It's it's it's very charming, and

1677
01:49:32,160 --> 01:49:37,160
Speaker 2: he's notoriously Mick. And you know, I dated Jack Nicholson,

1678
01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:41,600
Speaker 2: So I've been with some of the great flirts, the

1679
01:49:41,720 --> 01:49:47,760
Speaker 2: great Don Juan's of history. I've done that, and I

1680
01:49:47,880 --> 01:49:51,639
Speaker 2: don't regret it for one minute. You know, dating Jack

1681
01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:54,920
Speaker 2: was never I knew it was never going to be serious.

1682
01:49:55,120 --> 01:49:59,120
Speaker 2: I knew that, but I enjoyed his company so much.

1683
01:49:59,280 --> 01:50:02,200
Speaker 2: We had so much much fun together. We would just

1684
01:50:02,360 --> 01:50:06,639
Speaker 2: drive around, you know, he loved to He would show

1685
01:50:06,720 --> 01:50:09,000
Speaker 2: up when I would be in la He had this

1686
01:50:09,640 --> 01:50:13,400
Speaker 2: white Volkswagen that he had for his entire life. It

1687
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:15,400
Speaker 2: was and I wouldn't say it was beat up, but

1688
01:50:15,479 --> 01:50:18,360
Speaker 2: it was an old Volkswagen that he would drive around

1689
01:50:18,439 --> 01:50:21,439
Speaker 2: Hollywood when he wanted to be undercover. And one time

1690
01:50:21,520 --> 01:50:24,160
Speaker 2: I was staying in Laurel Canyon with my girlfriend Pam,

1691
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:28,200
Speaker 2: and his house was over on Mallholland, and he showed

1692
01:50:28,280 --> 01:50:32,120
Speaker 2: up at Pam's in the white Volkswagen. And I'll just

1693
01:50:32,280 --> 01:50:34,720
Speaker 2: never forget him getting out of the car. With a

1694
01:50:34,800 --> 01:50:38,760
Speaker 2: white Volkswagen with some flowers that he had picked and

1695
01:50:39,800 --> 01:50:45,439
Speaker 2: wild of course, and just being I introduced him to

1696
01:50:45,600 --> 01:50:48,479
Speaker 2: Pam and he was just so polite. He used to

1697
01:50:48,560 --> 01:50:50,920
Speaker 2: call my mother. He used to talk to my mother

1698
01:50:51,080 --> 01:50:55,040
Speaker 2: on the phone. And Warren Beattie, who I never even met.

1699
01:50:55,439 --> 01:50:57,880
Speaker 2: I mean when I say never met, I never met

1700
01:50:57,960 --> 01:51:01,000
Speaker 2: him under the sheets, is what I'm trying. I never

1701
01:51:01,160 --> 01:51:04,160
Speaker 2: dated Warren Beatty, even though he always gets listed as

1702
01:51:04,200 --> 01:51:06,920
Speaker 2: one of my boyfriends. But I think the reason why

1703
01:51:07,120 --> 01:51:09,680
Speaker 2: is because he and Jack were such good friends, and

1704
01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:11,439
Speaker 2: I hung out with both of them quite a bit

1705
01:51:12,360 --> 01:51:16,040
Speaker 2: and a lot of times over at Warren's house, and

1706
01:51:16,200 --> 01:51:19,320
Speaker 2: Warren was an amazing piano player. I remember the very

1707
01:51:19,360 --> 01:51:23,120
Speaker 2: first time I met Warren Beatty. Jack brought me over

1708
01:51:23,200 --> 01:51:26,320
Speaker 2: there and when we walked into the room, Warren was

1709
01:51:26,400 --> 01:51:33,040
Speaker 2: sitting behind the piano playing unbelievably. I was shocked. Who

1710
01:51:33,080 --> 01:51:36,080
Speaker 2: would have ever known? But he was an exquisite piano player.

1711
01:51:37,080 --> 01:51:41,400
Speaker 2: But no, I didn't date him, and I just I

1712
01:51:41,760 --> 01:51:45,799
Speaker 2: enjoy the company of like minded people.

1713
01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:48,320
Speaker 1: I I'm not just ask you then, because a lot

1714
01:51:48,360 --> 01:51:51,759
Speaker 1: of these people I don't mean specifically, but rock stars,

1715
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:56,320
Speaker 1: movie stars are very narcissistic. Oh god, did they listen

1716
01:51:56,400 --> 01:51:58,760
Speaker 1: to you? Did they want to engage in you? Did

1717
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:00,479
Speaker 1: they want to hear what you had to say?

1718
01:52:00,800 --> 01:52:04,439
Speaker 2: Of course, yes, very much so. As a matter of fact, Jack,

1719
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:07,960
Speaker 2: when I was, you know, going through the big transition

1720
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:11,559
Speaker 2: in eighty eighty one where I was forming a band

1721
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:16,560
Speaker 2: and living in my family's cottage on the family compound,

1722
01:52:17,760 --> 01:52:21,080
Speaker 2: and when I was trying to get the band together,

1723
01:52:21,680 --> 01:52:24,040
Speaker 2: he would listen to all my demos and it was

1724
01:52:24,160 --> 01:52:28,240
Speaker 2: constantly supportive and really really, really nice. And he even

1725
01:52:28,720 --> 01:52:31,880
Speaker 2: offered one time to buy me a house. He said,

1726
01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:35,040
Speaker 2: let me help you buy a house. He was like,

1727
01:52:35,320 --> 01:52:38,519
Speaker 2: let me give you some stability, and he goes, I'd

1728
01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:40,519
Speaker 2: like to help you, and I was like, no, I'm

1729
01:52:40,560 --> 01:52:42,640
Speaker 2: not going to let you do that. I mean, I

1730
01:52:42,720 --> 01:52:44,920
Speaker 2: look back on it now and thinking was I crazy?

1731
01:52:45,080 --> 01:52:51,000
Speaker 1: But you know it just okay at this point in time,

1732
01:52:52,040 --> 01:52:54,800
Speaker 1: to what degree do you interact with all these people

1733
01:52:55,080 --> 01:52:58,719
Speaker 1: famous and not known from your earlier days?

1734
01:52:59,280 --> 01:53:01,320
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Well, you know, the only time I

1735
01:53:01,400 --> 01:53:04,280
Speaker 2: see people like Mick and stuff is when they play

1736
01:53:05,320 --> 01:53:07,720
Speaker 2: I've gone to both of the times the Stones have

1737
01:53:07,800 --> 01:53:12,439
Speaker 2: played Nashville, and but no, we're all living very different

1738
01:53:12,520 --> 01:53:16,320
Speaker 2: lives now. Bowie, of course, you know, passed away. So

1739
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:20,080
Speaker 2: but he came to my daughter's first wedding, and and

1740
01:53:20,760 --> 01:53:24,200
Speaker 2: you know, we socialized. We would see each other at

1741
01:53:24,360 --> 01:53:29,600
Speaker 2: various events. But half the people that I used to

1742
01:53:29,680 --> 01:53:32,800
Speaker 2: hang out with are no longer alive. Most of them

1743
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:38,439
Speaker 2: are gone. And and and you know a lot of people.

1744
01:53:38,680 --> 01:53:40,639
Speaker 2: But you know, I see my daughter's father a lot.

1745
01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:47,080
Speaker 2: He brought me up on stage when he played FONTANELLEH gosh,

1746
01:53:47,520 --> 01:53:50,240
Speaker 2: I'll have to send you a little iPhone video of this.

1747
01:53:50,400 --> 01:53:51,559
Speaker 2: I think you'll get a kick.

1748
01:53:51,400 --> 01:53:51,720
Speaker 1: Out of it.

1749
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:54,519
Speaker 2: We did train kept a rolling together in front of

1750
01:53:54,600 --> 01:53:59,400
Speaker 2: thirty thousand people. So, you know, I run into people.

1751
01:54:00,280 --> 01:54:03,320
Speaker 2: I live in Nashville, so of course I you know,

1752
01:54:03,400 --> 01:54:06,280
Speaker 2: I run into people and recording studios now and then

1753
01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:09,720
Speaker 2: I see people here and there, Robert Plant over at

1754
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:13,360
Speaker 2: Sound Emporium or but you know, everybody is always So

1755
01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:16,960
Speaker 2: I see Jules holland you know, we're still very good friends.

1756
01:54:17,200 --> 01:54:20,519
Speaker 2: And I talked to Clive Arrowsmith quite a bit. And

1757
01:54:21,200 --> 01:54:25,080
Speaker 2: I you know, I've kept most of my friendships. The

1758
01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:30,280
Speaker 2: only estrangements that I have, which is very strange, are

1759
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:33,520
Speaker 2: with two of the most important relationships of my life,

1760
01:54:34,440 --> 01:54:40,200
Speaker 2: and I guess those were the guys I hurt the hardest.

1761
01:54:40,640 --> 01:54:45,000
Speaker 2: I are. That's Todd and Elvis and.

1762
01:54:46,800 --> 01:54:51,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let's switch gears very briefly give me the rap

1763
01:54:51,240 --> 01:54:52,680
Speaker 1: on the aliens.

1764
01:54:55,000 --> 01:55:00,280
Speaker 2: Well as I just believe that. Oh it's if I'm

1765
01:55:00,280 --> 01:55:03,480
Speaker 2: going to put it into synopsis format, I would have

1766
01:55:03,600 --> 01:55:05,360
Speaker 2: to say that I believe that we live in a

1767
01:55:05,440 --> 01:55:09,120
Speaker 2: multi dimensional universe, that we are present in a three

1768
01:55:09,200 --> 01:55:12,880
Speaker 2: dimensional world, but I feel like we're getting ready to

1769
01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:16,440
Speaker 2: move into a five D existence on our planet. I

1770
01:55:16,480 --> 01:55:20,040
Speaker 2: don't think we have a choice because if we don't

1771
01:55:20,240 --> 01:55:23,240
Speaker 2: stop what's happening now, the planet is not going to

1772
01:55:23,360 --> 01:55:26,520
Speaker 2: exist anymore and we're all going to be dead. So

1773
01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:30,280
Speaker 2: we have to move into a five D consciousness. And

1774
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:36,240
Speaker 2: what is D five D's two above three. It's a

1775
01:55:36,400 --> 01:55:42,480
Speaker 2: deeper it's a deeper understanding that these are our bodies,

1776
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:49,720
Speaker 2: but our souls and our consciousness are much bigger, and

1777
01:55:50,320 --> 01:55:54,400
Speaker 2: that I believe we do this many times. I believe

1778
01:55:54,520 --> 01:56:00,120
Speaker 2: that I believe that the soul travels many lifetimes and

1779
01:56:00,240 --> 01:56:04,960
Speaker 2: inhabits many bodies, and goes through many experiences. As far

1780
01:56:05,040 --> 01:56:09,520
Speaker 2: as aliens go, I believe in the multi dimensional aspect

1781
01:56:09,600 --> 01:56:15,480
Speaker 2: of our existence. I believe that people can come in

1782
01:56:15,640 --> 01:56:22,040
Speaker 2: and out. I believe that there's more sophisticated life forms

1783
01:56:22,120 --> 01:56:27,840
Speaker 2: and consciousness. So I'm just trying to keep myself elevated

1784
01:56:27,920 --> 01:56:33,960
Speaker 2: and open to the metaphysical aspect of the creation of

1785
01:56:34,040 --> 01:56:37,640
Speaker 2: our planet, the creation of the universe. You know, you

1786
01:56:37,680 --> 01:56:40,760
Speaker 2: can drive yourself nuts going where did it start? Where

1787
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:44,360
Speaker 2: did it the Big bang? Okay, who did the Big bang?

1788
01:56:45,200 --> 01:56:48,200
Speaker 2: Who invented that? And how do you know that the

1789
01:56:48,360 --> 01:56:52,880
Speaker 2: universe is expanding? Okay? We know that? Why? I mean,

1790
01:56:52,920 --> 01:56:56,080
Speaker 2: you can go crazy asking yourself all these questions. So

1791
01:56:56,200 --> 01:57:01,400
Speaker 2: the way I've decided that I can internalize it and

1792
01:57:01,560 --> 01:57:04,440
Speaker 2: understand it the best is to just think there is

1793
01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:07,560
Speaker 2: no beginning, there is no end, there is no time.

1794
01:57:08,200 --> 01:57:14,280
Speaker 2: There's dimensions, and there's textures, and there's layers, and I

1795
01:57:14,440 --> 01:57:16,000
Speaker 2: believe that we can go in and out.

1796
01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:21,920
Speaker 1: Okay, but have you you haven't seen little green men or.

1797
01:57:24,560 --> 01:57:26,520
Speaker 2: They? Well, the ones I met were gray?

1798
01:57:27,520 --> 01:57:29,400
Speaker 1: Okay, how you met them?

1799
01:57:29,520 --> 01:57:29,760
Speaker 2: Where?

1800
01:57:29,800 --> 01:57:30,200
Speaker 1: And when?

1801
01:57:30,960 --> 01:57:34,440
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's really this is this would take up

1802
01:57:34,440 --> 01:57:37,560
Speaker 2: an entire one of them. Okay, just a couple, all right.

1803
01:57:38,360 --> 01:57:43,840
Speaker 2: When I I've been having experiences with orbs or light

1804
01:57:44,720 --> 01:57:47,800
Speaker 2: since I was very young. One of my earliest memories

1805
01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:54,440
Speaker 2: in my crib is of these bouncing lights around my

1806
01:57:54,560 --> 01:57:59,120
Speaker 2: crib and I could sort of they would come when

1807
01:57:59,160 --> 01:58:02,240
Speaker 2: I wanted them to come, and they would. I thought

1808
01:58:02,280 --> 01:58:04,320
Speaker 2: they were playing with me. I thought they were toys.

1809
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:06,680
Speaker 2: And I would tell my mother that I loved the

1810
01:58:06,880 --> 01:58:09,880
Speaker 2: lights that would come to see me, that the lights

1811
01:58:09,960 --> 01:58:12,480
Speaker 2: were fun. Thanks, you know, Mommy, I love those lights,

1812
01:58:12,640 --> 01:58:16,680
Speaker 2: you know. And there were and of course you didn't

1813
01:58:16,680 --> 01:58:20,480
Speaker 2: give me any lights maybe a night light. But I've

1814
01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:27,320
Speaker 2: always felt connected to something. I've had some experiences that

1815
01:58:28,240 --> 01:58:32,320
Speaker 2: cannot be explained at all. Like one time I was

1816
01:58:32,360 --> 01:58:36,000
Speaker 2: in a car with my girlfriend, a Volkswagen. We were

1817
01:58:36,120 --> 01:58:38,800
Speaker 2: high out of our brains. I'm not proud of this moment.

1818
01:58:38,920 --> 01:58:44,920
Speaker 2: I'm not bragging or anything. We were driving, I was seventeen,

1819
01:58:45,280 --> 01:58:50,920
Speaker 2: sixteen or seventeen, and we're driving along. This is in Jacksonville,

1820
01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:53,880
Speaker 2: North Carolina, when my father was stepfather was stationed at

1821
01:58:53,880 --> 01:58:57,120
Speaker 2: Camp La June, and I was getting ready to go

1822
01:58:57,240 --> 01:59:00,520
Speaker 2: into the next lane. I was being frivolous and free,

1823
01:59:01,760 --> 01:59:05,880
Speaker 2: and literally a voice and I am not exaggerating, said

1824
01:59:07,640 --> 01:59:14,200
Speaker 2: don't go left. Very clearly and very loudly. And when

1825
01:59:14,240 --> 01:59:17,280
Speaker 2: I turned my head like this, there was a giant

1826
01:59:17,440 --> 01:59:22,040
Speaker 2: semitruck coming And if I had gone like that, I

1827
01:59:22,080 --> 01:59:24,000
Speaker 2: would have been pulverized.

1828
01:59:24,840 --> 01:59:30,680
Speaker 1: Well, you are here, and you're a fountain of amazing stories.

1829
01:59:30,880 --> 01:59:33,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know anybody who has as many

1830
01:59:34,040 --> 01:59:39,920
Speaker 1: stories as you, with so many famous people. And you

1831
01:59:40,160 --> 01:59:44,480
Speaker 1: have a new book, Rebel Soul, which is photographs of

1832
01:59:44,560 --> 01:59:47,760
Speaker 1: you throughout your life, but also essays of your belief

1833
01:59:47,920 --> 01:59:50,760
Speaker 1: We'll have one more topic and then we'll go. You

1834
01:59:50,880 --> 01:59:52,760
Speaker 1: make a big point in the book that you're not

1835
01:59:52,920 --> 01:59:56,360
Speaker 1: a groupie. Why focus on that so much?

1836
01:59:57,080 --> 02:00:01,680
Speaker 2: The word groupie? It's just gotten soiled, you know, like

1837
02:00:02,760 --> 02:00:06,800
Speaker 2: there's certain words. I know they're just words, But you

1838
02:00:06,920 --> 02:00:12,040
Speaker 2: don't want to be defined as somebody that when you're

1839
02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:15,080
Speaker 2: when you're an entertainer yourself, when you when you go

1840
02:00:15,240 --> 02:00:18,080
Speaker 2: on stage and you make people happy and you sing

1841
02:00:18,240 --> 02:00:20,800
Speaker 2: for people, you don't want to be known as just

1842
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:24,560
Speaker 2: the person that that Google goggles over the other people.

1843
02:00:25,360 --> 02:00:28,160
Speaker 2: I just think that the word is misunderstood. I think

1844
02:00:28,240 --> 02:00:32,360
Speaker 2: that it's been tainted to the point where it's become

1845
02:00:32,520 --> 02:00:35,320
Speaker 2: sexist in a lot of ways. Because I don't see

1846
02:00:35,320 --> 02:00:42,000
Speaker 2: it used to define men ever, and I I just

1847
02:00:42,280 --> 02:00:44,640
Speaker 2: at this point in my life. I've been married forever,

1848
02:00:46,280 --> 02:00:49,240
Speaker 2: and I consider myself a nurturer and a healer and

1849
02:00:49,320 --> 02:00:54,800
Speaker 2: a person that loves to give. I'm just not in

1850
02:00:54,920 --> 02:01:00,680
Speaker 2: a comfortable place where i can deal with being tagged labeled.

1851
02:01:01,600 --> 02:01:02,960
Speaker 2: I don't want to be like a cow with a

1852
02:01:03,040 --> 02:01:07,080
Speaker 2: tag on my ear. Oh that girl is a groupie,

1853
02:01:07,520 --> 02:01:09,880
Speaker 2: you know. I want to be known for many things.

1854
02:01:11,120 --> 02:01:14,480
Speaker 2: I'd rather be known as a historian and a storyteller

1855
02:01:15,480 --> 02:01:18,480
Speaker 2: and the original Alice in Wonderland who fell through the

1856
02:01:18,560 --> 02:01:22,480
Speaker 2: looking glass. I'd rather be known as a person that

1857
02:01:23,800 --> 02:01:28,080
Speaker 2: lived an extraordinary life, and I hope that I would

1858
02:01:28,120 --> 02:01:31,240
Speaker 2: love my life. I would love to see a series,

1859
02:01:31,440 --> 02:01:35,840
Speaker 2: because there are too many stories just for one documentary

1860
02:01:36,280 --> 02:01:39,160
Speaker 2: or for one movie. I know that there's ideas that

1861
02:01:39,240 --> 02:01:42,560
Speaker 2: people are having right now to do a documentary or

1862
02:01:42,600 --> 02:01:47,040
Speaker 2: a movie. But I see a series, I see many episodes.

1863
02:01:47,200 --> 02:01:50,120
Speaker 2: I don't see how you The Aliens, for instance, would

1864
02:01:50,120 --> 02:01:54,440
Speaker 2: take up one episode. Savador Dolly would take up an episode.

1865
02:01:55,040 --> 02:01:58,880
Speaker 2: Tom Petty would take up an episode. Just the experiences

1866
02:01:59,040 --> 02:02:05,520
Speaker 2: with these brilliant human beings that I've brushed with, obviously,

1867
02:02:07,440 --> 02:02:10,640
Speaker 2: you know, I touched their lives too. We've all touched

1868
02:02:10,680 --> 02:02:14,920
Speaker 2: each other's lives, and I want people to realize that

1869
02:02:16,480 --> 02:02:19,840
Speaker 2: I'm not a service dog. If I was a service dog,

1870
02:02:19,960 --> 02:02:22,520
Speaker 2: I would proudly say I'm a service dog. I am

1871
02:02:22,600 --> 02:02:26,160
Speaker 2: here to service these beautiful rock stars. I'm not a

1872
02:02:26,240 --> 02:02:29,320
Speaker 2: service dog. I am a human being that has had

1873
02:02:29,360 --> 02:02:35,840
Speaker 2: an extraordinary experience and extraordinary experiences and I don't even

1874
02:02:35,920 --> 02:02:40,040
Speaker 2: have the complete formula, nor do I have the complete

1875
02:02:40,120 --> 02:02:45,240
Speaker 2: explanation as to why. And hopefully I'll live long enough

1876
02:02:46,400 --> 02:02:50,320
Speaker 2: that some of these wonderful experiences can be shared, and

1877
02:02:50,440 --> 02:02:58,000
Speaker 2: not just in a little, condensed, tiny thing. I think

1878
02:02:58,040 --> 02:03:01,520
Speaker 2: there's so much to life, you know. I think people

1879
02:03:02,040 --> 02:03:04,560
Speaker 2: we all know each other for a reason, we all

1880
02:03:04,720 --> 02:03:08,000
Speaker 2: connect for a reason. There must have been a reason.

1881
02:03:08,920 --> 02:03:11,520
Speaker 2: There has to be the other way around. It's not

1882
02:03:11,800 --> 02:03:15,320
Speaker 2: just them being in my life. I was in their

1883
02:03:15,400 --> 02:03:17,560
Speaker 2: life too, and you're in.

1884
02:03:17,680 --> 02:03:20,440
Speaker 1: The life of many people right now as a result

1885
02:03:20,560 --> 02:03:23,160
Speaker 1: of doing this. Maybe I want to thank you so

1886
02:03:23,360 --> 02:03:26,600
Speaker 1: much for taking the time to share your life and

1887
02:03:26,720 --> 02:03:27,919
Speaker 1: thoughts with my audience.

1888
02:03:28,560 --> 02:03:30,800
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I could do another hour with you.

1889
02:03:31,280 --> 02:03:36,560
Speaker 2: You're just You're just interesting. I have to be honest,

1890
02:03:36,600 --> 02:03:41,560
Speaker 2: I am a fan. My husband religiously reads your newsletter.

1891
02:03:41,800 --> 02:03:44,640
Speaker 1: I just want to let you know that, and I'm

1892
02:03:44,680 --> 02:03:45,280
Speaker 1: glad you did.

1893
02:03:45,640 --> 02:03:48,320
Speaker 2: I like that well, Tick wn Gate, you know, he's

1894
02:03:48,360 --> 02:03:52,800
Speaker 2: always been a champion of mine. He wanted to sign

1895
02:03:52,920 --> 02:03:57,800
Speaker 2: me way before anybody and eighty one. I should have

1896
02:03:57,840 --> 02:03:59,760
Speaker 2: gone with the Wynn Gate. He's still my friend to

1897
02:03:59,840 --> 02:04:06,160
Speaker 2: this stay. But you know he he said that he

1898
02:04:06,360 --> 02:04:08,360
Speaker 2: was going to ask you, if you know, if I

1899
02:04:08,400 --> 02:04:11,280
Speaker 2: could be on your show, and I'm so glad that

1900
02:04:11,360 --> 02:04:13,280
Speaker 2: he did. I'm grateful. See what I mean, how we

1901
02:04:13,400 --> 02:04:16,080
Speaker 2: all know each other and how it all cross pollinates.

1902
02:04:16,400 --> 02:04:20,600
Speaker 2: See to me, Dick Wingate and my old editor at

1903
02:04:20,640 --> 02:04:24,440
Speaker 2: Saint Martin's like Elizabeth Byer, those are my rock stars.

1904
02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:29,040
Speaker 2: Those are the people that I'm indebted to and that

1905
02:04:29,200 --> 02:04:33,880
Speaker 2: I love. Danny Fields, these are my rock stars. These

1906
02:04:33,920 --> 02:04:36,440
Speaker 2: are the people that I will love and cherish till

1907
02:04:36,440 --> 02:04:39,160
Speaker 2: the day I die, because they're the people that believed

1908
02:04:39,200 --> 02:04:42,640
Speaker 2: in me and gave me chances in life, chances to

1909
02:04:42,760 --> 02:04:50,320
Speaker 2: do things myself. And there's nothing better than taking over

1910
02:04:50,440 --> 02:04:53,240
Speaker 2: a room. I love to be in front of an

1911
02:04:53,280 --> 02:04:57,680
Speaker 2: audience with a microphone. I don't even need instruments. I

1912
02:04:57,760 --> 02:05:01,760
Speaker 2: don't need anything. I'll sing the whole thing without one

1913
02:05:02,320 --> 02:05:06,600
Speaker 2: drop of an instrument. It brings me so much joy.

1914
02:05:07,240 --> 02:05:10,040
Speaker 2: But anyway, I'm thrilled and honored. It's an honor to

1915
02:05:10,120 --> 02:05:11,720
Speaker 2: be with you, mister Bob.

1916
02:05:12,600 --> 02:05:15,920
Speaker 1: I think you and I'm glad I had the chance

1917
02:05:16,040 --> 02:05:20,240
Speaker 1: to talk to you. In any event, till next time.

1918
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:21,920
Speaker 1: This is Bob left Sis