1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:21,530 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is the second episode of a series. You 2 00:00:21,570 --> 00:00:24,570 Speaker 1: can appreciate it on a standalone basis, but if you've 3 00:00:24,610 --> 00:00:26,970 Speaker 1: not heard episode one, you might prefer to listen to 4 00:00:27,050 --> 00:00:36,050 Speaker 1: that first. The movie theaters in Germany in nineteen twenty 5 00:00:36,130 --> 00:00:37,970 Speaker 1: nine are all showing. 6 00:00:37,810 --> 00:00:40,490 Speaker 2: Frau in wond The Woman in the Moon. 7 00:00:41,250 --> 00:00:44,850 Speaker 1: Germany is giddy about rocket ships and space travel. There's 8 00:00:44,890 --> 00:00:48,610 Speaker 1: even a Society for Spaceship Travel, which aims to promote 9 00:00:48,690 --> 00:00:52,410 Speaker 1: the exploration of space. The society is led by a 10 00:00:52,450 --> 00:00:56,370 Speaker 1: science writer named Villy Lay. It received a letter from 11 00:00:56,370 --> 00:01:00,010 Speaker 1: a young man keen to join the Society for Spaceship Travel. 12 00:01:00,770 --> 00:01:05,330 Speaker 1: He replied instructing the aspiring applicant to present himself at 13 00:01:05,330 --> 00:01:09,170 Speaker 1: the Lay household on the appointed day. Filly Lee d 14 00:01:09,450 --> 00:01:12,370 Speaker 1: was running a little late. As he arrived on his 15 00:01:12,410 --> 00:01:17,050 Speaker 1: own doorstep, he could hear the moonlight sonata emerging from within. 16 00:01:18,050 --> 00:01:22,210 Speaker 1: His visitor had seated himself at vide Lay's piano and 17 00:01:22,370 --> 00:01:27,210 Speaker 1: was entertaining himself with typical self assurance. Vidi Lay could 18 00:01:27,210 --> 00:01:30,970 Speaker 1: have been forgiven for asking himself who on earth was 19 00:01:31,050 --> 00:01:35,410 Speaker 1: this guy? I doubt the young pianist presented a resume, 20 00:01:35,810 --> 00:01:38,730 Speaker 1: but it would have been quite a document. He was 21 00:01:38,810 --> 00:01:44,130 Speaker 1: then only seventeen years old. His musical gifts also encompassed 22 00:01:44,130 --> 00:01:48,730 Speaker 1: the cello and amateur composition. He was an enthusiastic hunter 23 00:01:48,930 --> 00:01:52,450 Speaker 1: and a crack shot. It struggled with maths and physics 24 00:01:52,450 --> 00:01:55,330 Speaker 1: at school until he found out that maths and physics 25 00:01:55,690 --> 00:01:58,170 Speaker 1: might get him to the Moon, at which point he 26 00:01:58,290 --> 00:02:03,530 Speaker 1: focused his formidable intellect and became incandescently brilliant at both 27 00:02:04,290 --> 00:02:07,130 Speaker 1: His father had been a senior civil servant and then 28 00:02:07,290 --> 00:02:11,570 Speaker 1: a well connected banker. His mother traced her ancestry back 29 00:02:11,650 --> 00:02:15,970 Speaker 1: to the kings of four different countries. With bright blue 30 00:02:16,050 --> 00:02:19,770 Speaker 1: eyes and light blonde hair, he looked like a movie star, 31 00:02:20,290 --> 00:02:23,850 Speaker 1: and he knew it. He was charming, He was driven, 32 00:02:24,370 --> 00:02:32,290 Speaker 1: He was brilliant. He was Baron Werner von Brown. Von 33 00:02:32,370 --> 00:02:36,410 Speaker 1: Brown flourished at the Society for Spaceship Travel, but the 34 00:02:36,450 --> 00:02:41,410 Speaker 1: society faced formidable obstacles. In the first episode of this series, 35 00:02:41,810 --> 00:02:45,170 Speaker 1: we heard how rocket pioneers lost their eyes or their 36 00:02:45,250 --> 00:02:49,650 Speaker 1: lives trying to develop the basics of rocketry. The only 37 00:02:49,690 --> 00:02:53,650 Speaker 1: reason the Society for Spaceship Travel didn't suffer more serious 38 00:02:53,770 --> 00:02:56,890 Speaker 1: accidents is that it barely had enough funds to do 39 00:02:56,930 --> 00:03:01,450 Speaker 1: anything It was a ragtag collection of students and enthusiasts, 40 00:03:01,890 --> 00:03:06,090 Speaker 1: woefully under resourced. They did have permission to use a 41 00:03:06,130 --> 00:03:10,370 Speaker 1: scrap of wasteland near Berlin. They called it the Rakaton 42 00:03:10,450 --> 00:03:14,970 Speaker 1: Flugplats or rocket port. It was a grandiose name, a 43 00:03:15,010 --> 00:03:19,290 Speaker 1: statement of bravado when they were begging or bartering for gasoline, 44 00:03:19,450 --> 00:03:23,010 Speaker 1: welding gear, even food. It wasn't easy to build a 45 00:03:23,090 --> 00:03:26,250 Speaker 1: rocket at the best of times, but without money it 46 00:03:26,370 --> 00:03:32,650 Speaker 1: was almost impossible. Progress was slow, But then, in nineteen 47 00:03:32,730 --> 00:03:36,770 Speaker 1: thirty two, a black sedan slowly rolled up to the 48 00:03:36,850 --> 00:03:41,770 Speaker 1: rocket port and outstepped three officers of the German Army. 49 00:03:42,730 --> 00:03:45,850 Speaker 1: They had a proposal for the Society for Spaceship Travel. 50 00:03:46,730 --> 00:03:51,170 Speaker 1: They'd fund more serious rocket research if the enthusiasts of 51 00:03:51,210 --> 00:03:54,810 Speaker 1: the Society would devote their efforts to the challenge of 52 00:03:54,930 --> 00:03:59,730 Speaker 1: using rockets as weapons. To reach the Moon would require 53 00:03:59,810 --> 00:04:04,690 Speaker 1: an almost unlimited budget. The Army was a ready source 54 00:04:04,730 --> 00:04:08,930 Speaker 1: of cash. Verna von Brown later remarked. 55 00:04:09,130 --> 00:04:12,010 Speaker 3: We felt no moral scruples about the possible future use 56 00:04:12,050 --> 00:04:16,170 Speaker 3: of our brainchild. We were interested solely in exploring outer space. 57 00:04:16,770 --> 00:04:19,010 Speaker 3: It was simply a question with us of how the 58 00:04:19,010 --> 00:04:23,010 Speaker 3: Golden Cow could be milked most successfully. 59 00:04:23,570 --> 00:04:55,890 Speaker 1: I'm Tim Harford, and you're listening to cautionary tales. Of 60 00:04:55,930 --> 00:04:58,690 Speaker 1: the three men who stepped out of the army car 61 00:04:58,810 --> 00:05:02,890 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty two, The most senior was Valta Dornberger. 62 00:05:03,730 --> 00:05:07,090 Speaker 1: As we heard in the previous episode, Captain Dornberger was 63 00:05:07,130 --> 00:05:10,770 Speaker 1: in charge of the German armies fledgling efforts to build 64 00:05:10,770 --> 00:05:14,770 Speaker 1: a ballistic missile weapon, and he took an instant liking 65 00:05:15,090 --> 00:05:15,850 Speaker 1: to Von Brown. 66 00:05:17,130 --> 00:05:20,490 Speaker 2: I was struck by the energy and shrewdness with which 67 00:05:20,570 --> 00:05:24,690 Speaker 2: this tall, fair young student with the broad, massive chin 68 00:05:24,810 --> 00:05:29,410 Speaker 2: went to work, and by his astonishing theoretical knowledge. 69 00:05:29,570 --> 00:05:34,090 Speaker 1: Drnberger would become Von Brown's boss. Together, the two of 70 00:05:34,130 --> 00:05:40,490 Speaker 1: them would prove highly effective at milking the golden cow. 71 00:05:40,970 --> 00:05:45,210 Speaker 1: The basic sales pitch was straightforward. After the First World War, 72 00:05:45,610 --> 00:05:49,170 Speaker 1: Germany had been banned from developing artillery weapons under the 73 00:05:49,170 --> 00:05:54,850 Speaker 1: Treaty of Versailles. Ballistic missiles were attempting alternative. But while 74 00:05:54,890 --> 00:05:58,930 Speaker 1: the German Army's accountants had been instructed to furnish Drnberger 75 00:05:58,970 --> 00:06:03,210 Speaker 1: and Von Brown with money for experimental apparatus, they kept 76 00:06:03,250 --> 00:06:06,810 Speaker 1: a tight grip on the purse strings. This was just 77 00:06:06,850 --> 00:06:11,490 Speaker 1: a research program after all, Yet they were easily blinded 78 00:06:11,530 --> 00:06:16,890 Speaker 1: by science. When the accountants approved the research team's request for. 79 00:06:17,250 --> 00:06:22,810 Speaker 2: Appliance for cutting wooden rods up to ten millimeters in diameter. 80 00:06:22,730 --> 00:06:25,330 Speaker 1: They didn't realize they'd just agreed to pay for a 81 00:06:25,410 --> 00:06:31,530 Speaker 1: mechanical pencil sharpener. Similarly, when releasing funds for instrument. 82 00:06:31,130 --> 00:06:34,850 Speaker 2: For recording test data with rotating roller. 83 00:06:34,850 --> 00:06:37,250 Speaker 1: They would have been astonished to learn that they had 84 00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:42,210 Speaker 1: just bought Dornberger's secretary a typewriter. Of course, this is 85 00:06:42,370 --> 00:06:45,050 Speaker 1: trivial stuff, and there should never have been any question 86 00:06:45,130 --> 00:06:49,130 Speaker 1: of refusing to pay for simple office supplies, but it 87 00:06:49,250 --> 00:06:52,730 Speaker 1: underlines the fact that nobody really seemed to understand what 88 00:06:53,010 --> 00:06:56,370 Speaker 1: Dornberger and von Brown were up to, and if you 89 00:06:56,370 --> 00:07:00,530 Speaker 1: didn't understand it, it was hard to stop them. In 90 00:07:00,530 --> 00:07:05,130 Speaker 1: one exchange, a bureaucrat questioned some expenses, What was this 91 00:07:05,250 --> 00:07:11,050 Speaker 1: money for for experiments? What kind of experiments? Asked the 92 00:07:11,090 --> 00:07:12,650 Speaker 1: bureaucrats eight weeks. 93 00:07:12,450 --> 00:07:14,690 Speaker 2: Later, secret experiments. 94 00:07:15,450 --> 00:07:18,570 Speaker 1: They got the money, but no wonder they wanted to 95 00:07:18,650 --> 00:07:23,610 Speaker 1: keep those experiments secret. It wasn't just about mischievous obfuscation. 96 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:26,810 Speaker 1: Had the top brass of the German army taken a 97 00:07:26,850 --> 00:07:30,730 Speaker 1: closer look at those secret experiments, they would not have 98 00:07:30,770 --> 00:07:36,210 Speaker 1: instilled confidence. In their first work together, Von Brown and 99 00:07:36,290 --> 00:07:40,170 Speaker 1: Drnberger had tested a stationary rocket engine fixed to a 100 00:07:40,210 --> 00:07:45,330 Speaker 1: new outdoor test stand. The day was bitterly cold, four 101 00:07:45,450 --> 00:07:51,050 Speaker 1: days before Christmas nineteen thirty two. Dornberger was eleven meters away, 102 00:07:51,290 --> 00:07:55,050 Speaker 1: peeping from behind a tree as fn Brown approached the 103 00:07:55,130 --> 00:07:59,010 Speaker 1: rocket engine with a long flame tip rod and lit 104 00:07:59,290 --> 00:08:03,850 Speaker 1: the cloud of alcohol fumes seeping out from below the engine. 105 00:08:04,050 --> 00:08:08,570 Speaker 1: There was a swoosh, a hiss, and an explosion. Shrap 106 00:08:08,850 --> 00:08:12,810 Speaker 1: filled the air. Fragments of wooden panels, metal sheeting, and 107 00:08:12,890 --> 00:08:16,770 Speaker 1: cables rained down all around them. Dornberger and von Brown 108 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:23,490 Speaker 1: looked at each other in disbelief. They were incredibly unharmed. 109 00:08:24,450 --> 00:08:30,170 Speaker 1: Their new tests stand had been obliterated when the Nazis 110 00:08:30,210 --> 00:08:34,570 Speaker 1: took over in nineteen thirty three. Dornberger and von Brown 111 00:08:34,850 --> 00:08:39,210 Speaker 1: realized that the game had changed. Hitler wanted to turn 112 00:08:39,330 --> 00:08:44,770 Speaker 1: Germany back into a military superpower. If the rocket enthusiasts 113 00:08:44,850 --> 00:08:47,770 Speaker 1: told the right story, it might be possible to get 114 00:08:47,930 --> 00:08:50,730 Speaker 1: much more funding, but they weren't going to get it 115 00:08:50,770 --> 00:08:55,490 Speaker 1: if their test program teetered between slapstick and tragedy. They 116 00:08:55,530 --> 00:08:59,050 Speaker 1: needed to create a compelling vision of the weapon of 117 00:08:59,090 --> 00:09:02,050 Speaker 1: the future in the minds of the leaders of the Reich. 118 00:09:03,370 --> 00:09:07,890 Speaker 1: Captain Dornberger reminded the Nazi authorities of the Paris Gun, 119 00:09:08,330 --> 00:09:10,890 Speaker 1: which at the end of the First World War had 120 00:09:10,890 --> 00:09:14,050 Speaker 1: fired four hundred and fifty pound shells a distance of 121 00:09:14,170 --> 00:09:19,290 Speaker 1: eighty miles to strike at Paris itself. Fon Brown's rockets 122 00:09:19,330 --> 00:09:22,010 Speaker 1: could do far better than that, he said. They would 123 00:09:22,010 --> 00:09:25,570 Speaker 1: fly twice as far and carry one hundred times the payload. 124 00:09:26,130 --> 00:09:28,770 Speaker 1: They'd be more accurate than the Paris Gun, and they'd 125 00:09:28,770 --> 00:09:33,010 Speaker 1: be portable, carried by road or rail, launched from anywhere. 126 00:09:34,370 --> 00:09:37,690 Speaker 1: What would those authorities have thought if they'd seen the 127 00:09:37,970 --> 00:09:42,730 Speaker 1: underwhelming reality. The first rocket fon Brown designed for the 128 00:09:42,850 --> 00:09:46,730 Speaker 1: army was called the A one. It was tiny, It 129 00:09:46,770 --> 00:09:49,690 Speaker 1: stood less than five feet high, and it couldn't have 130 00:09:49,730 --> 00:09:52,210 Speaker 1: delivered much more than a hand grenade as a payload. 131 00:09:52,490 --> 00:09:58,090 Speaker 1: But that was theoretical because the A one never got anywhere. Privately, 132 00:09:58,570 --> 00:09:59,850 Speaker 1: fon Brown joked. 133 00:09:59,810 --> 00:10:02,450 Speaker 3: It took us half a year to build and half 134 00:10:02,450 --> 00:10:03,530 Speaker 3: a second to blow up. 135 00:10:04,290 --> 00:10:08,210 Speaker 1: Publicly, he and Dornberger continued to boast about the amazing 136 00:10:08,250 --> 00:10:12,570 Speaker 1: potential of rocket weapons. The next effort, the A two, 137 00:10:13,050 --> 00:10:16,010 Speaker 1: was barely bigger than the A one, but did fly 138 00:10:16,130 --> 00:10:19,370 Speaker 1: to a height of one point five miles in front 139 00:10:19,410 --> 00:10:23,970 Speaker 1: of senior army officers. The A three was a step 140 00:10:24,090 --> 00:10:28,210 Speaker 1: forward in ambition, over twenty feet long, but it was erratic, 141 00:10:28,730 --> 00:10:33,290 Speaker 1: flying off at unpredictable angles. Luckily for Ron Brown, that 142 00:10:33,530 --> 00:10:38,050 Speaker 1: wasn't obvious to observers. They saw a long, sleek missile 143 00:10:38,130 --> 00:10:41,130 Speaker 1: blast upwards into the sky amid a deafening roar and 144 00:10:41,170 --> 00:10:44,570 Speaker 1: a blinding flame. The fact that it wabbled off at 145 00:10:44,650 --> 00:10:50,290 Speaker 1: random was something few people noticed. Dornberger and von Brown 146 00:10:50,410 --> 00:10:55,450 Speaker 1: were magnificent salesmen for the rocket. Despite this string of disappointments, 147 00:10:55,690 --> 00:10:59,810 Speaker 1: they convinced many Nazi power brokers that Germany couldn't afford 148 00:10:59,850 --> 00:11:04,130 Speaker 1: to ignore rocket technology. The Third Reich was full of 149 00:11:04,250 --> 00:11:08,090 Speaker 1: competing power structures. Adolf Hitler seemed to like it that 150 00:11:08,170 --> 00:11:13,130 Speaker 1: wayaps because such infighting made his own position unassailable, or 151 00:11:13,130 --> 00:11:15,970 Speaker 1: perhaps out of some conviction that the best man with 152 00:11:16,050 --> 00:11:20,650 Speaker 1: the best ideas would triumph. Whatever the reason, this brutal 153 00:11:20,850 --> 00:11:24,810 Speaker 1: internal politics was about to give Dornberger and von Brown 154 00:11:25,370 --> 00:11:31,290 Speaker 1: the chance to divide and rule. Cautionary tales will return 155 00:11:32,050 --> 00:11:46,010 Speaker 1: after the break. In nineteen thirty six, senior figures in 156 00:11:46,050 --> 00:11:50,010 Speaker 1: the Luftwaffer the German Air Force, were unnerved that a 157 00:11:50,090 --> 00:11:54,330 Speaker 1: supposedly spectacular rocket weapon might be left in the hands 158 00:11:54,370 --> 00:11:58,210 Speaker 1: of the army. Some also wondered whether rockets might be 159 00:11:58,290 --> 00:12:01,290 Speaker 1: used to power airplanes, perhaps to give a bit of 160 00:12:01,370 --> 00:12:04,730 Speaker 1: extra lift to help the heaviest aircraft take off from 161 00:12:04,770 --> 00:12:09,770 Speaker 1: short runways. So the lutfuffer approached Werner von Brown directly 162 00:12:10,210 --> 00:12:15,250 Speaker 1: by passing his Army boss Dornberger. They made a staggering offer, 163 00:12:15,650 --> 00:12:19,490 Speaker 1: the equivalent of hundreds of millions of dollars in today's money, 164 00:12:19,770 --> 00:12:23,090 Speaker 1: to spend on a new rocket research center where he 165 00:12:23,130 --> 00:12:27,090 Speaker 1: would build the next generation rocket, the A four, the 166 00:12:27,170 --> 00:12:30,730 Speaker 1: rocket that would finally serve as a futuristic super weapon. 167 00:12:31,810 --> 00:12:35,010 Speaker 1: Vohn Brown must have been delighted, no more blowing up 168 00:12:35,130 --> 00:12:38,850 Speaker 1: test stands while Dornberger peeked from behind a tree. Eh 169 00:12:39,210 --> 00:12:43,330 Speaker 1: But instead of simply accepting the money, he took news 170 00:12:43,370 --> 00:12:46,210 Speaker 1: of the offer back to the Army, which had been 171 00:12:46,250 --> 00:12:50,370 Speaker 1: funding the rocket research up to that point. Imagine the 172 00:12:50,410 --> 00:12:54,850 Speaker 1: astonishment of General Carl Becker when a twenty four year 173 00:12:54,890 --> 00:12:58,490 Speaker 1: old civilian strolled into his office to ask if the 174 00:12:58,730 --> 00:13:04,090 Speaker 1: Army had a better offer, and on reflection, General Becker 175 00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:07,330 Speaker 1: decided that the Army did have a better offer. 176 00:13:08,130 --> 00:13:10,570 Speaker 4: I'm not going to let Luftwaffer run the wheel of 177 00:13:10,610 --> 00:13:14,130 Speaker 4: this business. I'm going to be the majority stockholder in 178 00:13:14,170 --> 00:13:14,930 Speaker 4: this enterprise. 179 00:13:15,930 --> 00:13:19,290 Speaker 1: The General agreed that the Army would provide twenty percent 180 00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:24,090 Speaker 1: more funding than the Luftwaffer had proposed. Von Brown accepted 181 00:13:24,850 --> 00:13:29,170 Speaker 1: both offers. The Luftwaffer wouldn't be at the wheel of 182 00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:32,490 Speaker 1: developing the A four rocket, it seemed, but neither would 183 00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:36,810 Speaker 1: the Army. Then A von Brown would. He was now 184 00:13:37,130 --> 00:13:45,290 Speaker 1: in charge of a Nazi mega project. Von Brown and 185 00:13:45,410 --> 00:13:49,210 Speaker 1: Drnberger used their new funds to build a vast facility 186 00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:52,610 Speaker 1: at Panamunda, about one hundred and fifty miles north of 187 00:13:52,610 --> 00:13:55,970 Speaker 1: Berlin on the coast of the Baltic Sea. There was 188 00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:59,730 Speaker 1: a supersonic wind tunnel, one of the first ever closed 189 00:13:59,810 --> 00:14:03,690 Speaker 1: circuit TV systems, so the rocket engineers could monitor test 190 00:14:03,770 --> 00:14:07,770 Speaker 1: launches from a safe distance. The biggest factory in Europe, 191 00:14:08,130 --> 00:14:12,170 Speaker 1: a coal fired our station, housing for thousands of scientists 192 00:14:12,170 --> 00:14:16,530 Speaker 1: and workers, and it was here that von Brown's talents 193 00:14:16,730 --> 00:14:20,890 Speaker 1: really started to shine. Still just in his mid twenties. 194 00:14:21,330 --> 00:14:25,410 Speaker 1: He proved to be a masterful technical director, marshaling and 195 00:14:25,450 --> 00:14:29,010 Speaker 1: focusing the talents of the scientists and engineers who worked 196 00:14:29,010 --> 00:14:33,570 Speaker 1: for him. The powerbrokers of the Nazi state gazed on 197 00:14:33,690 --> 00:14:39,250 Speaker 1: Painnamunda with a variety of emotions. Some were enthusiastic backers, 198 00:14:39,570 --> 00:14:44,570 Speaker 1: giddy with excitement at this wonderland of technological advancement. Others 199 00:14:44,610 --> 00:14:48,930 Speaker 1: were cynics, convinced that the money was being squandered. Still 200 00:14:49,010 --> 00:14:53,610 Speaker 1: others were predators, looking for an opportunity to close in 201 00:14:53,690 --> 00:14:58,530 Speaker 1: and seize the spoils. But all of them were curious, 202 00:14:59,650 --> 00:15:03,170 Speaker 1: when would the mysterious genius von Brown get round to 203 00:15:03,210 --> 00:15:07,890 Speaker 1: producing this much vaunted A four rocket? What was he 204 00:15:08,050 --> 00:15:12,370 Speaker 1: really up to? Verna von Brown had come to the 205 00:15:12,490 --> 00:15:17,450 Speaker 1: Army from the Society for Spaceship Travel. They really should 206 00:15:17,450 --> 00:15:26,570 Speaker 1: have been able to guess. Verna von Brown's proposed A 207 00:15:26,850 --> 00:15:30,530 Speaker 1: four rocket was as tall as a five story building. 208 00:15:31,290 --> 00:15:34,690 Speaker 1: It needed a mixture of super cooled liquid oxygen and 209 00:15:34,810 --> 00:15:38,530 Speaker 1: alcohol to power it, and clever pipework to make sure 210 00:15:38,570 --> 00:15:43,330 Speaker 1: the oxygen didn't freeze the alcohol. It needed gyroscopes to 211 00:15:43,330 --> 00:15:48,250 Speaker 1: stabilize it, and sophisticated fuses to ensure the warhead exploded 212 00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:51,570 Speaker 1: at just the right moment. It needed to be triggered 213 00:15:51,610 --> 00:15:56,410 Speaker 1: by impact at any angle, yet fullproof against accidental detonation. 214 00:15:57,530 --> 00:16:01,290 Speaker 1: The rocket needed aerodynamics that would allow for the change 215 00:16:01,330 --> 00:16:04,650 Speaker 1: in air pressure as it reached the stratosphere, and it 216 00:16:04,650 --> 00:16:08,490 Speaker 1: would have to withstand temperatures of twelve hundred degrees fahrenheit 217 00:16:08,610 --> 00:16:11,930 Speaker 1: six hundred and fifty celsius as it arcd down to 218 00:16:12,050 --> 00:16:16,450 Speaker 1: re enter thicker atmosphere. All of this added up to 219 00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:22,730 Speaker 1: an astonishing technological challenge. It took the engineers into uncharted territory. 220 00:16:22,970 --> 00:16:28,010 Speaker 1: There was absolutely no room for error in design, manufacture, 221 00:16:28,410 --> 00:16:33,650 Speaker 1: or deployment. The first test launch in February nineteen forty 222 00:16:33,650 --> 00:16:39,090 Speaker 1: two was not a success. The rocket slipped while being 223 00:16:39,130 --> 00:16:43,130 Speaker 1: mounted on the launch pad, crushing its fins. This was 224 00:16:43,290 --> 00:16:47,570 Speaker 1: a distinctly undignified way to lose a rocket, and after 225 00:16:47,610 --> 00:16:51,970 Speaker 1: some attempts at repair, it was scrapped. Fron Brown's team 226 00:16:52,210 --> 00:16:56,410 Speaker 1: slunk back to the factory to build another. Three months 227 00:16:56,490 --> 00:17:00,810 Speaker 1: later they were ready to try again. Some powerful Nazi 228 00:17:00,810 --> 00:17:03,930 Speaker 1: figures came to pay Amunda to watch the test under 229 00:17:03,970 --> 00:17:11,010 Speaker 1: gloomy low clouds. Hitler's personal friend Albert Speer recalled the occasion. 230 00:17:11,370 --> 00:17:14,050 Speaker 2: At first with a faltering motion, but then with the 231 00:17:14,130 --> 00:17:17,770 Speaker 2: roar of an unleashed giant. The rocket rose slowly from 232 00:17:17,810 --> 00:17:21,170 Speaker 2: its bed, seemed to stand upon its jettle flame for 233 00:17:21,210 --> 00:17:24,050 Speaker 2: a fraction of a second, then vanished with a howl 234 00:17:24,170 --> 00:17:27,530 Speaker 2: into the low clouds. Fairer fon Pound was beaming. 235 00:17:29,130 --> 00:17:33,490 Speaker 1: Spier didn't know it, but that beaming smile was masking 236 00:17:33,530 --> 00:17:38,090 Speaker 1: some alarm. Von Brown, with his expert eye, could see 237 00:17:38,130 --> 00:17:42,290 Speaker 1: that the rocket had been unstable. It reached supersonic speeds 238 00:17:42,330 --> 00:17:45,490 Speaker 1: and a height of thirty miles, but after fifty four 239 00:17:45,530 --> 00:17:49,090 Speaker 1: seconds the rocket cut out and it began to spin 240 00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:53,650 Speaker 1: and fall right back down towards the launch pad. The 241 00:17:53,770 --> 00:17:57,730 Speaker 1: roaring noise of the falling rocket grew louder and louder. 242 00:17:57,970 --> 00:18:00,410 Speaker 1: Were they about to be struck by their own rocket. 243 00:18:01,210 --> 00:18:04,090 Speaker 1: In the end, it spun into the Baltic Sea less 244 00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:08,250 Speaker 1: than a mile away. Von Brown had gotten away with it. 245 00:18:08,770 --> 00:18:12,610 Speaker 1: The zimble launch had been spectacular, and the dramatic failure 246 00:18:12,930 --> 00:18:16,810 Speaker 1: had been concealed by the cloud cover. Another launch in 247 00:18:16,930 --> 00:18:21,370 Speaker 1: August nineteen forty two was another failure. This time the 248 00:18:21,450 --> 00:18:26,090 Speaker 1: warhead fell off and the rocket itself disintegrated. But it 249 00:18:26,290 --> 00:18:29,650 Speaker 1: too had reached supersonic speeds, and that was enough for 250 00:18:29,770 --> 00:18:32,810 Speaker 1: von Brown to spin it as he always did. The 251 00:18:32,850 --> 00:18:38,810 Speaker 1: firing was one hundred percent successful. This dashing young man 252 00:18:38,970 --> 00:18:43,290 Speaker 1: seemed so confident and assured it spent colossal sums of 253 00:18:43,330 --> 00:18:47,490 Speaker 1: money that the Reich could scarcely afford. Surely he knew 254 00:18:47,530 --> 00:18:55,210 Speaker 1: what he was doing. Large ambitious projects have a certain 255 00:18:55,330 --> 00:19:01,650 Speaker 1: reputation these days, over time, overbudget, over and over again. 256 00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:06,890 Speaker 1: That reputation is perfectly accurate. According to the world's most 257 00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:11,890 Speaker 1: prominent expert on large projects, Bent Flubia, a management professor 258 00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:16,850 Speaker 1: at Oxford University, Flubia has accumulated a large database on 259 00:19:16,930 --> 00:19:20,450 Speaker 1: what he calls mega projects, and his data did not 260 00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:24,730 Speaker 1: tell a pretty story. Nine out of ten of these 261 00:19:25,010 --> 00:19:29,770 Speaker 1: huge projects have cost overruns, benefits often fall short of 262 00:19:29,770 --> 00:19:32,690 Speaker 1: what's been promised. This is true all over the world, 263 00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:36,570 Speaker 1: and it's true for public and private sector projects alike. 264 00:19:37,610 --> 00:19:42,530 Speaker 1: But why There are two explanations. One is that we 265 00:19:42,610 --> 00:19:47,050 Speaker 1: fool ourselves. Whatever we do always takes longer and costs 266 00:19:47,130 --> 00:19:51,330 Speaker 1: more than we expected. One classic study of this phenomenon 267 00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:55,290 Speaker 1: was conducted by a young doctoral student named Roger Bueler 268 00:19:55,650 --> 00:19:58,850 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen nineties, Bula asked a group of 269 00:19:59,010 --> 00:20:02,210 Speaker 1: undergraduates to predict how long it would take to submit 270 00:20:02,290 --> 00:20:06,810 Speaker 1: their honors thesis, and to consider upside and downside scenarios 271 00:20:07,210 --> 00:20:10,170 Speaker 1: if everything went as well as it possibly could, and 272 00:20:10,530 --> 00:20:14,130 Speaker 1: if everything went as poorly as it possibly could. The 273 00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:18,170 Speaker 1: student's optimistic estimate was twenty eight days, and their baseline 274 00:20:18,210 --> 00:20:22,570 Speaker 1: guests not much longer, thirty four days. Their worst case 275 00:20:22,570 --> 00:20:27,610 Speaker 1: scenario estimate was forty nine days. In reality, the average 276 00:20:27,650 --> 00:20:32,730 Speaker 1: thesis took fifty six days, twice the optimistic estimate, but 277 00:20:32,850 --> 00:20:37,410 Speaker 1: also even worse than the worst case scenario. I hardly 278 00:20:37,450 --> 00:20:41,250 Speaker 1: need to cite this research. We all know it's true. Surely, 279 00:20:41,250 --> 00:20:44,890 Speaker 1: there's no more reliable source of disappointment anywhere in the 280 00:20:44,930 --> 00:20:49,050 Speaker 1: world than looking at all the incomplete tasks on yesterday's 281 00:20:49,050 --> 00:20:53,890 Speaker 1: to do list. Then of von Brown was as guilty 282 00:20:53,930 --> 00:20:58,690 Speaker 1: of this wishful thinking as anyone. His biographer, Michael Neufeld 283 00:20:58,810 --> 00:21:02,730 Speaker 1: says that von Brown was always an enthusiast, always an optimist, 284 00:21:03,250 --> 00:21:05,170 Speaker 1: that this was one of the traits which made him 285 00:21:05,170 --> 00:21:10,410 Speaker 1: such an inspiring leader. But like Roger Bueler's experimental subjects, 286 00:21:10,930 --> 00:21:14,250 Speaker 1: he was perfectly capable of being optimistic to the point 287 00:21:14,330 --> 00:21:18,890 Speaker 1: of delusion. Von Brown was far more interested in conquering 288 00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:22,410 Speaker 1: space than in conquering the British or the Soviets. Not 289 00:21:22,450 --> 00:21:25,170 Speaker 1: only that, but he was obsessed with the idea that 290 00:21:25,210 --> 00:21:30,210 Speaker 1: he personally would one day travel into space. Needless to say, 291 00:21:30,770 --> 00:21:31,450 Speaker 1: he never did. 292 00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:33,290 Speaker 2: Like all the. 293 00:21:33,330 --> 00:21:37,810 Speaker 1: Undergraduates who answered Roger Bueller's survey, he was surprised at 294 00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:42,210 Speaker 1: how long everything seemed to take. Von Brown struggled to 295 00:21:42,250 --> 00:21:44,210 Speaker 1: see that by the time there was such a thing 296 00:21:44,250 --> 00:21:48,370 Speaker 1: as an astronaut, he'd be far too old to be one. 297 00:21:48,730 --> 00:21:52,130 Speaker 1: But there's a second explanation for why mega projects are 298 00:21:52,130 --> 00:21:56,610 Speaker 1: so often over time and over budget. It isn't delusion, 299 00:21:57,250 --> 00:22:03,370 Speaker 1: its deception. The promoters of large projects almost always exaggerate 300 00:22:03,410 --> 00:22:08,210 Speaker 1: their benefits and understate their costs. Ron Brown had been 301 00:22:08,290 --> 00:22:13,450 Speaker 1: happily doing this for years, making ambitious claims about the range, payload, 302 00:22:13,610 --> 00:22:17,370 Speaker 1: and accuracy his rockets would achieve. And the more the 303 00:22:17,370 --> 00:22:22,010 Speaker 1: difficulties became evident of VN. Brown, the bolder his claims became. 304 00:22:22,770 --> 00:22:27,530 Speaker 1: But would his unachievable promises eventually catch up with him? 305 00:22:27,850 --> 00:22:31,370 Speaker 1: When the Second World War began, Von Brown recalled. 306 00:22:31,610 --> 00:22:34,570 Speaker 3: The army told us in very clear terms that either 307 00:22:34,610 --> 00:22:36,770 Speaker 3: we had to produce something of promise as a weapon 308 00:22:36,850 --> 00:22:39,530 Speaker 3: in the very near future, or we must go out 309 00:22:39,570 --> 00:22:40,090 Speaker 3: of business. 310 00:22:40,530 --> 00:22:43,370 Speaker 1: And by the time of the next test in October 311 00:22:43,450 --> 00:22:47,730 Speaker 1: nineteen forty two, the war was not going well for Germany. 312 00:22:48,530 --> 00:22:51,770 Speaker 1: Ron Brown really needed to put on a show. The 313 00:22:51,850 --> 00:22:55,650 Speaker 1: luxurious facilities in Paina Munda had been sucking in resources 314 00:22:55,690 --> 00:22:59,370 Speaker 1: for more than half a decade. Where were the results? 315 00:23:00,370 --> 00:23:04,010 Speaker 1: Ron Brown's boss felt A. Doorn Berger later recalled how 316 00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:05,690 Speaker 1: anxious he felt, had. 317 00:23:05,530 --> 00:23:08,210 Speaker 4: We really discovered the cause of failure of the last 318 00:23:08,210 --> 00:23:08,890 Speaker 4: two attempts. 319 00:23:09,730 --> 00:23:11,970 Speaker 2: A great deal depended on this launching. 320 00:23:12,370 --> 00:23:16,450 Speaker 1: We all knew that Drnberger saw one of his officers 321 00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:19,890 Speaker 1: pale with worry and tried to say something encouraging. 322 00:23:20,410 --> 00:23:23,810 Speaker 2: Keep your fingers crossed. It must come off this time. 323 00:23:23,930 --> 00:23:25,090 Speaker 2: There's so much at stick. 324 00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:30,530 Speaker 1: The roar of the engine was so spectacular that witnesses 325 00:23:30,570 --> 00:23:35,010 Speaker 1: felt they were inside a thunderstorm. And this time the 326 00:23:35,090 --> 00:23:40,130 Speaker 1: sleek fuselage remained stable even as it accelerated through the 327 00:23:40,250 --> 00:23:41,010 Speaker 1: sound barrier. 328 00:23:41,850 --> 00:23:45,610 Speaker 4: It was an unforgettable sight. In the full glare of 329 00:23:45,650 --> 00:23:49,090 Speaker 4: the sunlight, the rocket rose higher and higher, the flame 330 00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:51,930 Speaker 4: darting from the stern was almost as long as the 331 00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:52,810 Speaker 4: rocket itself. 332 00:23:54,410 --> 00:23:58,690 Speaker 1: The rocket reached an altitude of around fifty miles, flew 333 00:23:58,850 --> 00:24:02,690 Speaker 1: for four minutes and fifty six seconds, and plunged into 334 00:24:02,730 --> 00:24:07,810 Speaker 1: the Baltic Sea, one hundred and twenty miles away. At last, 335 00:24:08,250 --> 00:24:13,330 Speaker 1: at last, the A four rocket might actually be usable 336 00:24:13,570 --> 00:24:16,450 Speaker 1: as a weapon. It would soon gain a new name, 337 00:24:16,970 --> 00:24:21,330 Speaker 1: the V two. The V stood for Vengeance, and Painna 338 00:24:21,370 --> 00:24:27,170 Speaker 1: Munda would soon quite suddenly be crawling with Nazi power players. 339 00:24:27,930 --> 00:24:33,370 Speaker 1: Vron Brown had finally started to succeed, and that perhaps 340 00:24:34,290 --> 00:24:41,050 Speaker 1: was much more dangerous than continuing to fail. Hartionary tales 341 00:24:41,490 --> 00:24:51,530 Speaker 1: will be back in a moment. As soon as it 342 00:24:51,570 --> 00:24:54,650 Speaker 1: looked like enn of von Brown's V two weapon might 343 00:24:54,810 --> 00:24:59,610 Speaker 1: actually be going somewhere, senior officers from the Army, the SS, 344 00:24:59,650 --> 00:25:04,090 Speaker 1: and the Loftwaffer started to appear at Painna Munda, handing 345 00:25:04,090 --> 00:25:09,050 Speaker 1: out orders and setting delusionally optimistic targets. At the start 346 00:25:09,210 --> 00:25:13,570 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty three, Dornberger agreed an ambition of building 347 00:25:13,690 --> 00:25:16,530 Speaker 1: one hundred rockets each month by the end of the year. 348 00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:21,610 Speaker 1: That target was soon revised upwards to three hundred, then 349 00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:25,530 Speaker 1: changed again to eight hundred, then finally set at an 350 00:25:25,570 --> 00:25:30,530 Speaker 1: absurd two thousand a month. Even von Brown was unsettled 351 00:25:30,530 --> 00:25:33,010 Speaker 1: by this. As Dornberger recalled. 352 00:25:32,690 --> 00:25:37,050 Speaker 2: Professor von Brown was giving the imploring and despairing looks, 353 00:25:37,090 --> 00:25:40,290 Speaker 2: shaking his head again and again in incredulous astonishment. 354 00:25:41,450 --> 00:25:44,130 Speaker 1: VN Brown's concern was that there was no way that 355 00:25:44,250 --> 00:25:47,650 Speaker 1: he could build two thousand V two rockets a month. 356 00:25:48,370 --> 00:25:52,930 Speaker 1: But even if he could, what about the fuel? Even 357 00:25:52,970 --> 00:25:56,570 Speaker 1: if every tank of liquid oxygen in Germany were sent 358 00:25:56,650 --> 00:25:59,610 Speaker 1: to the V two program, that wouldn't be enough for 359 00:25:59,690 --> 00:26:04,570 Speaker 1: half those rockets. The other key fuel component was alcohol, 360 00:26:04,930 --> 00:26:09,650 Speaker 1: which was distilled from potatoes. Food in wartime Germany was 361 00:26:09,690 --> 00:26:14,890 Speaker 1: becoming scarce, while in areas attacked or occupied by German forces, 362 00:26:15,490 --> 00:26:19,690 Speaker 1: four million people starved to death as the Germans seized 363 00:26:19,690 --> 00:26:24,370 Speaker 1: food supplies. Each V two rocket needed thirty tons of 364 00:26:24,370 --> 00:26:29,250 Speaker 1: potatoes to supply its fuel. Where would those potatoes come from? 365 00:26:30,210 --> 00:26:35,650 Speaker 1: Who would starve? As a result? The goal of building 366 00:26:35,730 --> 00:26:40,770 Speaker 1: so many V twos was simply impossible. That anyone who 367 00:26:40,810 --> 00:26:45,810 Speaker 1: objected was threatened with dismissal or worse, The mega project 368 00:26:45,850 --> 00:26:50,770 Speaker 1: had acquired its own momentum, as mega projects do. The 369 00:26:50,850 --> 00:26:54,250 Speaker 1: problem was magnified by the derangements of the man at 370 00:26:54,250 --> 00:27:00,530 Speaker 1: the top, Adolf Hitler, sometimes viciously insightful, but often unhinged. 371 00:27:01,410 --> 00:27:04,490 Speaker 1: Sometimes he had been an enthusiast for the rocket program. 372 00:27:04,850 --> 00:27:09,730 Speaker 1: Sometimes he'd dismissed the rocket engineers as dreamers. He made 373 00:27:09,850 --> 00:27:14,090 Speaker 1: absurd suggestions, like firing the rockets out of a gigantic cannon. 374 00:27:15,810 --> 00:27:20,490 Speaker 1: In July nineteen forty three, Hitler summoned Valter Doornberger and 375 00:27:20,530 --> 00:27:24,450 Speaker 1: Werner von Brown. Together, they watched the film of the 376 00:27:24,530 --> 00:27:29,050 Speaker 1: latest successful test launch, with von Brown providing the commentary. 377 00:27:30,010 --> 00:27:33,290 Speaker 1: The Fura could barely contain his enthusiasm. 378 00:27:33,490 --> 00:27:35,610 Speaker 3: Why was it I could not believe in the success 379 00:27:35,650 --> 00:27:36,530 Speaker 3: of your work. 380 00:27:36,850 --> 00:27:41,210 Speaker 1: He asked. Dornberger later proudly recalled Hitler's words. 381 00:27:41,650 --> 00:27:43,930 Speaker 3: I have had to apologize only to two men in 382 00:27:43,970 --> 00:27:47,210 Speaker 3: my whole life. The first was Field Marshal von Prauschitch. 383 00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:49,730 Speaker 3: I did not listen to him when he told me 384 00:27:49,810 --> 00:27:53,730 Speaker 3: again and again how important your research was. The second 385 00:27:53,770 --> 00:27:57,210 Speaker 3: man is yourself. I never believed that your work would 386 00:27:57,250 --> 00:27:58,010 Speaker 3: be successful. 387 00:27:59,170 --> 00:28:03,050 Speaker 1: With Hitler now fully on board, the V two megaproject 388 00:28:03,330 --> 00:28:06,450 Speaker 1: and the Pain and Munder complex became prizes to fight 389 00:28:06,570 --> 00:28:10,130 Speaker 1: over for the Nazi barons. In the Third Rune. But 390 00:28:10,370 --> 00:28:13,970 Speaker 1: just a few weeks later, in August nineteen forty three, 391 00:28:14,570 --> 00:28:19,850 Speaker 1: the British bombed Painamunda. Heinrich Himmler, the head of the 392 00:28:20,050 --> 00:28:23,490 Speaker 1: ss happened to be with Adolf Hitler when news of 393 00:28:23,530 --> 00:28:26,810 Speaker 1: the raid reached them. As head of the s S, 394 00:28:27,290 --> 00:28:31,250 Speaker 1: Himmler was one of the architects of the Holocaust, the 395 00:28:31,290 --> 00:28:35,810 Speaker 1: systematic murder of six million Jews, which was already well underway. 396 00:28:36,770 --> 00:28:39,730 Speaker 1: He was one of the most evil and dangerous men 397 00:28:40,010 --> 00:28:45,050 Speaker 1: in the Third Reich. Himmler immediately proposed that missile production 398 00:28:45,210 --> 00:28:49,890 Speaker 1: be moved underground to a disused mine or freshly blasted tunnels. 399 00:28:50,530 --> 00:28:58,490 Speaker 1: Hitler agreed. The move underground from Painamunda to a mine 400 00:28:58,570 --> 00:29:01,930 Speaker 1: near the city of Nordhausen, right in the center of Germany, 401 00:29:02,330 --> 00:29:07,330 Speaker 1: began with punishing speed. The human cost, as we'll soon see, 402 00:29:07,890 --> 00:29:12,890 Speaker 1: was appalling. Himmler also suggested to Hitler that the ESSs 403 00:29:12,970 --> 00:29:16,410 Speaker 1: should now take the lead on the rocket program. Hitler 404 00:29:16,530 --> 00:29:20,410 Speaker 1: said no, he liked to divide and rule. He kept 405 00:29:20,410 --> 00:29:23,850 Speaker 1: the army in charge for now, but Himmler didn't give 406 00:29:23,930 --> 00:29:28,810 Speaker 1: up on his ambition. In February nineteen forty four, he 407 00:29:29,050 --> 00:29:32,610 Speaker 1: ordered Werner Vron Brown to fly over to his field 408 00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:37,890 Speaker 1: headquarters near the Eastern Front. Himmler's command center had the 409 00:29:37,970 --> 00:29:43,490 Speaker 1: nickname the Black Lair. At first a few concrete bunkers 410 00:29:43,850 --> 00:29:47,370 Speaker 1: hidden from air assault by the Polish forests, it had 411 00:29:47,410 --> 00:29:52,850 Speaker 1: grown low. Wooden buildings were scattered through the trees, heavily camouflaged. 412 00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:56,610 Speaker 1: There was even a command train parked up on a ramp. 413 00:29:57,490 --> 00:30:00,890 Speaker 1: SS guards were everywhere. It was the kind of place 414 00:30:01,050 --> 00:30:05,690 Speaker 1: people were summoned to, never to return. Even the self 415 00:30:05,730 --> 00:30:09,570 Speaker 1: assured Vron Brown was unnerved by the prospect of meeting 416 00:30:09,650 --> 00:30:15,450 Speaker 1: the most sinister man in the Third Reich. Himmler received 417 00:30:15,530 --> 00:30:18,210 Speaker 1: Vron Brown behind a simple wooden table. 418 00:30:19,250 --> 00:30:21,610 Speaker 3: I must confess that I felt a bit jittery when 419 00:30:21,650 --> 00:30:24,330 Speaker 3: I was shown into his office. But he greeted me 420 00:30:24,370 --> 00:30:27,810 Speaker 3: politely and conveyed rather the impression of a country grammar 421 00:30:27,850 --> 00:30:30,650 Speaker 3: school teacher than that horrible man who was said to 422 00:30:30,730 --> 00:30:32,290 Speaker 3: weighe knee deep in blood. 423 00:30:33,370 --> 00:30:35,970 Speaker 4: I trust you realize that your V two rocket has 424 00:30:36,010 --> 00:30:38,730 Speaker 4: ceased to be an engineer's toy, and that the German 425 00:30:38,770 --> 00:30:41,730 Speaker 4: people are eagerly waiting for it. Why don't you come 426 00:30:41,770 --> 00:30:44,850 Speaker 4: to us. You know that the fuel's door is open 427 00:30:44,890 --> 00:30:47,530 Speaker 4: to me at any time, don't you. I shall be 428 00:30:47,890 --> 00:30:50,090 Speaker 4: in a much better position to help you lick the 429 00:30:50,130 --> 00:30:53,290 Speaker 4: remaining difficulties than that clumsy army machine. 430 00:30:54,210 --> 00:30:58,730 Speaker 1: Heinra. Himmler was making his play. The SS was launching 431 00:30:58,770 --> 00:31:03,610 Speaker 1: a hostile takeover of Paina Munda and the entire rocket program. 432 00:31:03,970 --> 00:31:05,890 Speaker 1: Vron Brown pushed back. 433 00:31:06,650 --> 00:31:09,410 Speaker 3: General Donberger is the best chief I could wish to have, 434 00:31:09,530 --> 00:31:13,130 Speaker 3: rex Fura. It is technical trouble and not red tape 435 00:31:13,170 --> 00:31:14,290 Speaker 3: that is holding things up. 436 00:31:14,930 --> 00:31:16,490 Speaker 4: The feed to is like a. 437 00:31:16,410 --> 00:31:20,930 Speaker 3: Little flower that needs sunshine, fertile soil, and some gardener's tending. 438 00:31:21,610 --> 00:31:24,050 Speaker 3: If you pour a big jet of liquid manure on 439 00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:26,730 Speaker 3: that little flower in order to have it grow faster, 440 00:31:27,410 --> 00:31:28,210 Speaker 3: it might kill it. 441 00:31:29,330 --> 00:31:33,290 Speaker 1: You have to laugh. Ron Brown, speaking to the head 442 00:31:33,410 --> 00:31:36,850 Speaker 1: of the SS, compared the SS to a jet of 443 00:31:36,970 --> 00:31:42,330 Speaker 1: liquid excrement. It was bold, very bold. If he ever 444 00:31:42,370 --> 00:31:46,370 Speaker 1: said it, we only have Von Brown's account of the conversation, 445 00:31:47,410 --> 00:31:52,210 Speaker 1: but in any case, Himmler apparently smiled or laughed, and 446 00:31:52,290 --> 00:31:55,770 Speaker 1: the conversation with one of the most powerful and murderous 447 00:31:55,810 --> 00:32:01,530 Speaker 1: men in Germany ended on pleasant terms. Von Brown flew 448 00:32:01,570 --> 00:32:07,250 Speaker 1: back to the rapidly shrinking team and Pain Amunda. One 449 00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:12,370 Speaker 1: month later, the day before his thirty second birthday, Verna 450 00:32:12,490 --> 00:32:15,610 Speaker 1: von Brown was visited at three o'clock in the morning 451 00:32:16,410 --> 00:32:25,450 Speaker 1: by the Gestapo. They were there to invite Von Brown 452 00:32:25,530 --> 00:32:28,890 Speaker 1: to make a witness statement at the nearby police headquarters. 453 00:32:29,970 --> 00:32:34,090 Speaker 5: He wished to arrest me. There must be a misunderstanding. 454 00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:37,330 Speaker 5: By no means are we talking about arrest. We have 455 00:32:37,450 --> 00:32:40,210 Speaker 5: the express order to take you into protective custody. 456 00:32:41,490 --> 00:32:45,570 Speaker 1: Protective custody was worse than arrest. It might mean torture, 457 00:32:45,970 --> 00:32:49,050 Speaker 1: it might mean death. There would certainly be no trial 458 00:32:49,130 --> 00:32:54,410 Speaker 1: and no judicial oversight. People would simply vanish, but von 459 00:32:54,490 --> 00:32:59,050 Speaker 1: Brown was so indispensable to the rocket program even Himmler 460 00:32:59,250 --> 00:33:04,490 Speaker 1: hesitated to simply have him disappear. Instead, Von Brown was 461 00:33:04,570 --> 00:33:09,050 Speaker 1: held in good conditions, allowed to receive birthday flowers and gifts, 462 00:33:10,010 --> 00:33:16,530 Speaker 1: but he knew he was in mortal danger. Von Brown's biographer, 463 00:33:16,770 --> 00:33:19,690 Speaker 1: Michael Neufeld, is sure that he would never have been 464 00:33:19,770 --> 00:33:23,850 Speaker 1: arrested if Himmler hadn't seen some advantage in doing so. 465 00:33:24,690 --> 00:33:28,370 Speaker 1: Himmler was simply waiting to see what the fallout might be, 466 00:33:28,930 --> 00:33:33,650 Speaker 1: to discover how powerful vn Brown's protectors were. The Gestapo 467 00:33:33,770 --> 00:33:37,130 Speaker 1: had an excuse for bringing von Brown into custody. Of course, 468 00:33:37,650 --> 00:33:41,370 Speaker 1: Ostensibly they wanted to investigate the report of a drunken 469 00:33:41,490 --> 00:33:45,570 Speaker 1: conversation at a party at which Von Brown had apparently 470 00:33:45,610 --> 00:33:50,490 Speaker 1: been rather indiscreet about his milking of the Golden Cow. 471 00:33:51,090 --> 00:33:54,290 Speaker 3: The war will not end well, It's clear enough where 472 00:33:54,290 --> 00:33:57,130 Speaker 3: this is all going for Germany. But what of your weapon, 473 00:33:57,330 --> 00:34:00,810 Speaker 3: Professor von Brown? Surely it is a source of hope 474 00:34:00,850 --> 00:34:04,090 Speaker 3: for the German people. My feeling about the weapon is 475 00:34:04,130 --> 00:34:07,570 Speaker 3: that it is aimed at the wrong planet. Rockets are 476 00:34:07,570 --> 00:34:11,210 Speaker 3: not designed to conquer Britain or Russia. They are designed 477 00:34:11,650 --> 00:34:12,610 Speaker 3: to conquer space. 478 00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:18,330 Speaker 1: Did he ever say such things in an unguarded moment 479 00:34:18,450 --> 00:34:25,170 Speaker 1: at a party? Perhaps perhaps not, But it rings true. 480 00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:28,650 Speaker 1: Thener von Brown had come a long way since playing 481 00:34:28,770 --> 00:34:33,490 Speaker 1: Moonlight Sonata at Ville Lais Piano. Had he only ever 482 00:34:33,610 --> 00:34:36,890 Speaker 1: thought of the Nazi war effort as a handy source 483 00:34:36,930 --> 00:34:42,290 Speaker 1: of funds for the Society for Spaceship Travel? Perhaps so. 484 00:34:42,410 --> 00:34:47,770 Speaker 1: Von Brown, like most promoters of mega projects, systematically exaggerated 485 00:34:47,810 --> 00:34:52,370 Speaker 1: the benefits and understated the costs of his ambitions. The 486 00:34:52,410 --> 00:34:57,370 Speaker 1: Gestapo began to question Von Brown. He found the process. 487 00:34:57,130 --> 00:35:01,810 Speaker 3: Grotesque and had a macabrun reality. As an engineer, I 488 00:35:01,930 --> 00:35:07,450 Speaker 3: dealt constantly with tangible facts and comprehensible problems. Here everything 489 00:35:07,490 --> 00:35:11,210 Speaker 3: appeared as if in a hallucination. Quite obviously, they wanted 490 00:35:11,250 --> 00:35:14,810 Speaker 3: to inject fear into me. If the Gestapo wanted to 491 00:35:14,890 --> 00:35:18,490 Speaker 3: convict me, how was I supposed to prove my innocence? 492 00:35:19,570 --> 00:35:24,090 Speaker 1: He wasn't and he couldn't, and luckily for von Brown, 493 00:35:24,770 --> 00:35:29,010 Speaker 1: he didn't need to. The second day of questioning was 494 00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:35,370 Speaker 1: interrupted by his longtime boss, General Walter Dornberger, resplendently clad 495 00:35:35,450 --> 00:35:39,730 Speaker 1: in full dress uniform, who marched in, shot Von Brown 496 00:35:39,810 --> 00:35:44,410 Speaker 1: a genial glance, and without a word, placed a document 497 00:35:44,570 --> 00:35:48,250 Speaker 1: in front of the chief interrogator. It was an order 498 00:35:48,570 --> 00:35:55,410 Speaker 1: to release Von Brown, signed and stamped at Hitler's office. 499 00:35:55,490 --> 00:35:58,810 Speaker 1: It had been a narrow escape, which Von Brown and 500 00:35:58,890 --> 00:36:03,490 Speaker 1: Dornburger celebrated with a large bottle of brandy, then returned 501 00:36:03,530 --> 00:36:08,530 Speaker 1: to working on the V two rocket program. A few 502 00:36:08,530 --> 00:36:13,010 Speaker 1: months later, the third Reich would be collapsing and Von 503 00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:16,970 Speaker 1: Brown would be plotting his next move. He didn't know 504 00:36:17,010 --> 00:36:21,810 Speaker 1: it then, but his unnerving arrest had been the most 505 00:36:22,010 --> 00:36:29,330 Speaker 1: extraordinary piece of good luck. In our next episode, Cautionary Tales, 506 00:36:29,370 --> 00:36:51,650 Speaker 1: will return with this story's final shocking installment. Michael Neufeld's 507 00:36:51,650 --> 00:36:55,930 Speaker 1: definitive account of Germany's V two program is The Rocket 508 00:36:56,330 --> 00:36:59,170 Speaker 1: and the Reich. For a full list of our sources, 509 00:36:59,370 --> 00:37:16,610 Speaker 1: see the show notes at Timharford dot com. Cautionary Tales 510 00:37:16,650 --> 00:37:19,770 Speaker 1: is written by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. It's 511 00:37:19,850 --> 00:37:23,490 Speaker 1: produced by Alice Fines with support from Marilyn Rust. The 512 00:37:23,570 --> 00:37:26,930 Speaker 1: sound design and original music is the work of Pascal Wise. 513 00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:31,610 Speaker 1: Sarah Nix edited the scripts. It features the voice talents 514 00:37:31,610 --> 00:37:35,930 Speaker 1: of Ben Crowe, Melanie Gushridge, Stella Harford, Jemma Saunders and 515 00:37:36,010 --> 00:37:39,890 Speaker 1: Rufus Wright. The show also wouldn't have been possible without 516 00:37:39,890 --> 00:37:44,850 Speaker 1: the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilly, Greta Cohne, Ditel Millard, 517 00:37:45,130 --> 00:37:50,650 Speaker 1: John Schnaz, Eric's handler, Carrie Brody, and Christina Sullivan. Cautionary 518 00:37:50,690 --> 00:37:54,890 Speaker 1: Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at 519 00:37:54,930 --> 00:37:58,810 Speaker 1: Wardoor Studios in London by Tom Berry. If you like 520 00:37:58,890 --> 00:38:03,330 Speaker 1: the show, please remember to share, rate and review and 521 00:38:03,490 --> 00:38:05,610 Speaker 1: tell your friends and if you want to hear the 522 00:38:05,650 --> 00:38:09,010 Speaker 1: show ad free sign up for Pushkin Plus on the 523 00:38:09,210 --> 00:38:13,410 Speaker 1: show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin dot FM, 524 00:38:13,610 --> 00:38:14,770 Speaker 1: slash Plus,