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Speaker 1: In two thousand and nine, Gretchen Ruben's breakout books, The

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Speaker 1: Happiness Project, became a New York Times number one bestseller

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Speaker 1: and revolutionized the way people approach personal development. Over the

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Speaker 1: last decade, she has taken her approach to creating a happier, healthier,

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Speaker 1: more productive, and more creative life off those pages and

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Speaker 1: into the daily lives of her readers and listeners throughout

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Speaker 1: through her books, blog, podcast, online courses, and weekly newsletter.

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Speaker 1: Gretchen Ruben, Hi, thank you so much for being here

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Speaker 1: with us.

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be talking to you today.

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Speaker 1: And as you guys know, it's Friday, so Chip is

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Speaker 1: also here.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, So.

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Speaker 1: Gretchen, I was prepping for this podcast and I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: is she like the guru of happiness?

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Speaker 2: I wish? I hope so that'd be great.

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Speaker 4: I know your sister, she calls you.

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Speaker 2: What is she?

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Speaker 4: What is her name for you?

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Speaker 2: A happiness bully?

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Speaker 4: The happiness bully?

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Speaker 2: Did you ever good? If there's a way for you

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Speaker 2: to get happier that I think I've identified, I can

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Speaker 2: get pretty insistent. So she's sometimes been the innocent bystander

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Speaker 2: of that energy. I would say she does, but you

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Speaker 2: know it can. It can be a lot. Sometimes you

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Speaker 2: just assume not have somebody, you know. One of the

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Speaker 2: things I love to clear clutter, especially other people's clutter,

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Speaker 2: because it's so much easier when it's not yours. And

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Speaker 2: so I'm always like, when I go to her house,

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Speaker 2: she's very she's very messy. She would be the first

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Speaker 2: essay and so you know, I remember one time we

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Speaker 2: completely did her office and then when it came for

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Speaker 2: me to go to the airport, I was like, you're

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Speaker 2: glad to see me go, very sincerely, but I'm so

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Speaker 2: happy you came.

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Speaker 5: You need to meet my best friend from college, Sarah,

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Speaker 5: who's a listener, so she'll hear this. She loves to

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Speaker 5: straighten my place when she comes here, and it's like

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Speaker 5: such a gift, and I know it's not a burden

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Speaker 5: to her, yes, so I don't complain.

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Speaker 2: So it's so much easier when it's not your stuff

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Speaker 2: because you don't have any emotional ties to it, and

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Speaker 2: so it's very it's so straightforward and it's so satisfying.

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Speaker 2: When it's your own stuff, there's so many more questions

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Speaker 2: and so much more indecision and strange emotions, like there's

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Speaker 2: some hideous sweater. If it's your hideous swetter, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: that's a hideous sweater. Put it in the donate pile.

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Speaker 2: But if I bought it but I never used it,

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Speaker 2: then I'm like, but maybe I should wear it, and

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Speaker 2: why did I spend so much money? And sure it

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Speaker 2: was on sale, but I made a mistake and maybe

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Speaker 2: I could wear it with those blue pants and YadA YadA, YadA,

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Speaker 2: YadA YadA. But is your hideous sweater that is? That's easy,

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Speaker 2: a lot easier.

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Speaker 1: Like we're actually going to talk about how clutter affects

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Speaker 1: happiness in a little bit, but I want to know

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Speaker 1: why happiness. Did you think that your ever life, your

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Speaker 1: life would ever just become about teaching other people how

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Speaker 1: to find happiness.

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Speaker 2: It's about teaching myself how to fight. Okay, I would say,

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Speaker 2: researches me, search for me. Other people potentially the benefactors,

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Speaker 2: but it's all for me now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I started my career in law, so I was actually

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Speaker 2: clerking for Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor when I

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Speaker 2: decided that I wanted to be a writer. So then

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Speaker 2: I switched to being a writer and I was finishing

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Speaker 2: up a biography of JFK that I was writing. When

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Speaker 2: I got I was stuck in a city bus in

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Speaker 2: the pouring rain, and I thought, what do I want

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Speaker 2: from life anyway? And I thought, well, I want to

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Speaker 2: be happy. But I realized I didn't spend any time

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Speaker 2: thinking about whether I was happier. What I thought happiness

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Speaker 2: was is it possible to make yourself happier? And I thought,

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Speaker 2: you know, I should have a happiness project, and I

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Speaker 2: ran out to the library. I got a giant stack

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Speaker 2: of books the next day, which happens to me all

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Speaker 2: the time. I'll get very preoccupied with the subject and

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Speaker 2: I'll do a ton of research and writing on it.

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Speaker 2: But happiness just got bigger and bigger. And first it

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Speaker 2: was just for me, my own happiness project. And then

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Speaker 2: I finally I was like, this is so fascinating. There's

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Speaker 2: so many things I want to learn and try and explore.

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Speaker 2: Maybe this should be my next book. So I wrote

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Speaker 2: that book. And then I'm like, but this subject is

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Speaker 2: so fascinating, it's leading me in all these different directions.

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Speaker 2: So then I wrote a book about habits, because if

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Speaker 2: you're talking about a happy life, habits play a huge

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Speaker 2: role A lot of times, you know, what would make

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Speaker 2: you happier you just don't do it. That gives you

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Speaker 2: to a habit question. I wrote a book about it,

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Speaker 2: How to be Happier at Home, because it's hard to

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Speaker 2: be happy if you're not happy at home. I wrote

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Speaker 2: a book. My most recent book is Life in Five Senses,

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Speaker 2: because I realized that tapping into the five senses is

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Speaker 2: such a such an engine of happiness for us and

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Speaker 2: connection and memories and energy and calm and creativity everything.

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Speaker 2: It's like the Swiss Army knife tools your five senses.

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Speaker 2: And so I just keep going sort of deeper and

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Speaker 2: deeper into this idea of happiness in human nature. I

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Speaker 2: did not expect that when I went to the library

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Speaker 2: that first day, but that's how it turned out.

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Speaker 5: Well, I mean it's an ongoing process. Yes, So it's like, oh,

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Speaker 5: for you to achieve your happiness or retain it, I

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Speaker 5: guess it's like you got to keep doing that research.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And there's always there's always new. It's funny because

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Speaker 2: I'll feel like, wow, if I sort of explored everything,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to exp and then a whole huge section

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Speaker 2: of the library lights up, Like when I had my

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Speaker 2: realization about the five senses. I was like, and then

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Speaker 2: and then looking back at my earlier books, I saw

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Speaker 2: that like I was groping toward it, Like I had

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Speaker 2: a whole thing about smell and my book Happier at

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Speaker 2: Home and in my book Better than Before, that's about

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Speaker 2: habit changed. There were so many habits that were related

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Speaker 2: to kind of managing sensory surroundings and sensory overload, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't identify it as a category. And

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Speaker 2: once I was like, oh, this is the category, then

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Speaker 2: all the all these new things came into view. It's

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Speaker 2: very exciting when that happens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you say an atmosphere of growth

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Speaker 1: is the key to a happier life, because when we

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Speaker 1: were first discussing having you on even our topic this

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Speaker 1: month is housekeeping, so obviously we've talked a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the physical aspects of housekeeping and what that looks like,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of it is just this internal deep

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Speaker 1: dive and a lot of times we get just going

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Speaker 1: in our life and we don't really pay attention to

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Speaker 1: those things. So why do an atmosphere of growth play

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Speaker 1: a part in our happiness?

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Speaker 2: Do you think? You know? It's just this this aspect

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Speaker 2: of human nature where we are happier when we're growing.

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Speaker 2: And maybe that's because we're improving something, maybe we're fixing something,

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Speaker 2: maybe we're teaching something, maybe we're learning something, maybe we're

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Speaker 2: helping something to move forward. But in some way, having

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Speaker 2: that atmosphere of growth makes us happier. And the interesting

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Speaker 2: thing about the atmosphere of growth is it's something that

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Speaker 2: we can control. So let's say everything in your life

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Speaker 2: is kind of is going wrong. You know, we all

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Speaker 2: have had periods where you're like, every there's something bad

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Speaker 2: in every area of my life. But one thing you

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Speaker 2: can do is with the atmosphere of growth, is you

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Speaker 2: can say, okay, but within my control, what is something

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Speaker 2: that I can where I can grow? Can I learn

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Speaker 2: a new skill? Can I get a certification? Can I

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Speaker 2: clean out my pantry? Can I, you know, clean out

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Speaker 2: my clothes closet? Sometimes, you know, over and over, I'm

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Speaker 2: sure you've experienced this too, Like even a slight growth

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Speaker 2: gives this disproportionate sense of energy and good cheer. Cleaning

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Speaker 2: out your email inbox, going through your digital photos, like

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Speaker 2: finally making that photo album for your parents' anniversary party

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Speaker 2: that you promised them that you would do you just

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Speaker 2: get that done, and it just it just it is

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Speaker 2: a source of just a good feeling, and it's one

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Speaker 2: that we can control.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that kind of leads me to the next

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Speaker 1: question I wanted to ask, because I want to know

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Speaker 1: exactly what is happiness? Because what you just described are

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Speaker 1: these tiny little things that we can do for growth

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Speaker 1: that could make us happy. But I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of times when I associate happiness, like a true level

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Speaker 1: of happiness is when you look at someone who just

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Speaker 1: might have this, you know, all the stuff going on

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Speaker 1: or all the success or they've really hit this point

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Speaker 1: in their life where you're like, well, surely they're happy,

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Speaker 1: but that's part of your story, isn't it. Like you

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Speaker 1: looked at your life, you had the husband, the kids,

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Speaker 1: the job, and you were like happy, But could I

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Speaker 1: be happier exactly?

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Speaker 4: So what is happiness?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So I started my career in law, as I said,

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Speaker 2: and I spent an entire sinister arguing about the definition

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Speaker 2: of contracts, and happiness is an even more elusive concept.

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Speaker 2: There are like fifteen academic definitions of happiness, and I

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Speaker 2: decided I wasn't going to worry about it. And because

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Speaker 2: people want to say, is it happiness? Is a joy?

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Speaker 2: Is it satisfaction? Is it contentment? Is it peace? Is

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Speaker 2: it bliss? And I'm like, and the more I thought

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Speaker 2: about it, it just it just it was not making

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Speaker 2: me happy. And so and you know, if you're a

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Speaker 2: scientists doing scientific research, you have to like very precisely

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Speaker 2: define your terms. But I think for the average person

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Speaker 2: it could become very confusing and in a way, very

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Speaker 2: kind of sterile exercise to worry about too much what

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Speaker 2: it is. I think it's more helpful to think about

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Speaker 2: how can I be happier? Whatever it is my conception

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Speaker 2: and your conception of it can be different from mine.

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Speaker 2: Whatever our conception is. Individually, can I be happier this today,

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Speaker 2: next week, next month, next year? Are there things that

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Speaker 2: I can do, concrete, manageable things that I can do

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Speaker 2: in my everyday life that will make me happier? And

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Speaker 2: that is usually very clear to people like that. They're

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Speaker 2: like that I get. And one of the things that

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Speaker 2: the research shows is about fifty percent of happiness, however

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Speaker 2: you might define it, is genetically determined. So some people

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Speaker 2: are born tiggers, some people are born emers. That's hardwired.

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Speaker 2: Then like fifteen to twenty percent is something called life circumstances.

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Speaker 2: So this is age, income, health, marital status, work, and

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Speaker 2: then the rest is very much influenced by our conscious

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Speaker 2: thoughts and actions. And so when I talk about can

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Speaker 2: we be happier, that's what I'm really focused on, is like,

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Speaker 2: don't worry about your dopamine levels, you know, don't worry

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Speaker 2: about like is bliss different from joy, different from satisfaction?

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Speaker 2: But just say, like, well, with your conscious thoughts and actions,

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Speaker 2: what are some things you could think of to be happier?

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Speaker 2: Like in the housekeeping area, what would I do? What

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Speaker 2: could I do that? I that I'm pretty confident because

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Speaker 2: usually we have a pretty good sense that something is

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Speaker 2: likely to make us happier. To me, that's just that's

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Speaker 2: what I like to think about more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what I was gonna say, what is the importance

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Speaker 1: of asking yourself if you're happy or unhappy?

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Speaker 2: Hugely important?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, why is that?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think for a lot of people it's just

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Speaker 2: easy never even to think about it. I mean I

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Speaker 2: never thought about it until that day. So if you

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Speaker 2: don't think about it, you know, you're unlikely to hit

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Speaker 2: a target. If you don't aim at it. And if

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Speaker 2: what I find is that the minute somebody says like,

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Speaker 2: well what could I do to be happier, they think

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Speaker 2: of many, many things like and you know, but it's

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Speaker 2: very easy and kind of the tumult of everyday life

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Speaker 2: to not think about like, wow, our mornings are really chaotic,

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Speaker 2: Like I really start out the day stressed. Everybody's sniping

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Speaker 2: at each other, like what are some things that I

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Speaker 2: could do to make the morning calmer? And then once

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Speaker 2: you say to yourself, I would be happier if I

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Speaker 2: had a calmer, more peaceful, more harmonious morning than it's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: well are there things that you could do with your

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Speaker 2: conscious thoughts and actions? And you're like, well, if I

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Speaker 2: got up twenty minutes earlier, I could get myself organized

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Speaker 2: and have a cup of coffee before the rest of

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Speaker 2: my family woke up, and that would make me calmer.

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Speaker 2: Or if I chose my outfit the night before, then

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't be in this panic of indecision and annoyance

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Speaker 2: that morning. Or if I got everything organ I'm a

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Speaker 2: person who leaves stuff like all over the house. If

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Speaker 2: I got everything ready by the front door, so I

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Speaker 2: could just pick up my sunglasses, my keys, my charger,

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Speaker 2: you know, my badge, all that stuff on the way out.

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Speaker 2: I could do it. Then, you know, I could put

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Speaker 2: my I could put my medication by the coffee pot,

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Speaker 2: so I can't have my first cup of coffee until

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Speaker 2: I take my medication. And I never missed my first

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Speaker 2: cup of coffee. So now I'm going to do much

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Speaker 2: better managing my heart, you know, my blood pressure, because

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Speaker 2: I'm going to consistently take my medication. And so now

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Speaker 2: this nagging feeling that I have that I'm not taking

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Speaker 2: care of my health consistently is going to go away.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of things. Once you stop to say, well,

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Speaker 2: are there ways that I could be happier? Are what

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Speaker 2: are some places in my life where there's low hanging fruit?

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Speaker 2: And for most of us, there's a lot of low

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Speaker 2: hanging fruit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, would you say that the number one thing that

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Speaker 1: gets in the way of our happiness is busyness and awareness?

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Speaker 1: I'm picking up a couple of different things from what

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Speaker 1: you just said. What would you say the number one

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Speaker 1: thing that gets in the way of our happiness is?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 2: What a great question. I don't I think it's probably

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Speaker 2: different for different people, and maybe in different stages of

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Speaker 2: their lives. I mean, for people who are kind of

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Speaker 2: in the rush hour of life, it's probably the feeling

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Speaker 2: like I don't have enough time for all the things

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Speaker 2: that are important to me. For some people, it might

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Speaker 2: be loneliness, you know, if you had to pick thus

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Speaker 2: secret to happiness, ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that

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Speaker 2: it's relationships, and so anything that deepens or broadens our

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Speaker 2: relationships is likely to make us happier. And when people

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Speaker 2: are in periods in their lives where they feel like

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Speaker 2: they don't have enough friends, or they're not connecting with

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Speaker 2: their friends, or maybe they don't have a romantic partner

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Speaker 2: and they really want one. For some people, it's even

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Speaker 2: like not having a dog. Like some people they just

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Speaker 2: need like animal companionship in their life and if they

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Speaker 2: don't have it, you know, if they're like in a

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Speaker 2: apartment building that doesn't take dogs and they're like, I

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Speaker 2: can't I have to have a dog? Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: I feel bereft. So I think for different people it

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Speaker 2: might be it might be very different.

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Speaker 3: What do you think I was going to ask?

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Speaker 5: Like, because personally, for me, sometimes when I start to

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Speaker 5: think about, like what I can do to make myself happier.

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Speaker 5: I face a fear of admitting that I'm not happy

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Speaker 5: because I'm generally like a really happy person that I

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Speaker 5: get that feedback from people like how are you always

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Speaker 5: so happy? And it's so I don't want to ever

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Speaker 5: admit that I'm not happy. Do you, like in your research,

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Speaker 5: is there anything that has spoken to that, like the

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Speaker 5: fear of admitting unhappiness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that goes to identity, where you've been

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Speaker 2: tied to this identity of a happy person. So it

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Speaker 2: almost feels like you're contradictory, contradicting like a deep important identity,

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Speaker 2: or you're violating other people's identity which they may also

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Speaker 2: be very invested in. My father is a very very

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Speaker 2: happy and I have to say that I really really

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Speaker 2: took it for granted. And it was only after I

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Speaker 2: had done a lot of research into happiness that I

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Speaker 2: realized like how skillful that is and how demanding that

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Speaker 2: is to be the person that's happy, and how that

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Speaker 2: kind of person often becomes a buffer for other people's

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Speaker 2: bad feelings. They become a source of energy that others

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Speaker 2: draw on and that others may count on and that

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Speaker 2: it is a very very demanding position, and maybe it

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Speaker 2: might be a an unwelcome identity in some ways, where

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Speaker 2: you're like, if I have to be the happy one,

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Speaker 2: that's like lifting everyone's spirits. That's a lot of work

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Speaker 2: for me. So again I think that you know, stepping

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Speaker 2: back and just saying, you know, could I be happier?

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Speaker 2: And what might be in the way, isn't saying you

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Speaker 2: can still be a very happy I remember talking to

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Speaker 2: a friend who really suffers from depression, and she said,

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Speaker 2: I'm a very happy person who suffers from depression. And

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Speaker 2: she said, some people don't understand how that's possible. And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I exactly understand how that's possible. So and also,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that research shows about happiness and

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Speaker 2: unhappiness is it's not a seesaw, like you can be

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Speaker 2: experiencing a lot of things at the same time and

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Speaker 2: so and so that makes perfect sense to me. But

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Speaker 2: it might be that you would want to think through

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Speaker 2: that a little bit for yourself, and maybe if other

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Speaker 2: people are sort of like like, what's up with you?

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Speaker 2: Like you're the happy guy, like being like, well, you

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Speaker 2: know what, I can I can be the happy guy.

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Speaker 2: But even for the happy guy, you know, I'm struggling

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Speaker 2: with something, or I'm frustrated by something, or I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: through something, so that you don't get boxed into that identity, right.

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Speaker 1: I also like that a lot of your points about

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Speaker 1: the initial question to ask are not to say like

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Speaker 1: am I happy or unhappy? It's am I happy? But

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Speaker 1: could I be happier? So you're never really like attaching

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Speaker 1: the word unhappy to that well.

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Speaker 2: And I also think it's it's like very hard to know.

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Speaker 2: Like when I started the Happiness Project, I have a friend,

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Speaker 2: you know, like works for a big tech company, super

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Speaker 2: scientific guy, and he's like, Okay, what you should do

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Speaker 2: is you should have your husband rate you on a

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Speaker 2: one to ten scale every morning and every night, and

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Speaker 2: then you'll see if you make progress. I was like,

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Speaker 2: first of all, have you met my husband? No way

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Speaker 2: the happy marriage? And then people I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 2: even know, Like I get very anxious when people say like,

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Speaker 2: what's your happiness on a one to ten skill? I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I have no idea what that means. And if you're

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Speaker 2: very unhappy, you know, like of course you do. And

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Speaker 2: if you're very happy, you know, but usually I think

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Speaker 2: for most of us we live in a place where

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Speaker 2: it's like it's kind of hard to tell. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I don't I find that very confusing to think about.

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Speaker 2: Whereas if I think about is this going to make

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Speaker 2: me happier or less happy? That feels clear. So I

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Speaker 2: like thinking about it that way. It just feels just

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Speaker 2: feels more more graspable.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In the book The Happiness Project, you come up with

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Speaker 1: these twelve commandments for your happiness project, and they're all

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Speaker 1: I like them because it's similar to what you've already said,

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Speaker 1: where sometimes the next right step or the small action

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Speaker 1: is the thing that's going to change your happiness level.

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Speaker 1: So you say, be Gretchen, let it go. Act the

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Speaker 1: way I want to feel. Do it now, be polite

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Speaker 1: and be fair, enjoy the process, spend out, identify the problem,

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Speaker 1: lighten up, do what ought to be done. No calculation,

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Speaker 1: There is only love. So as I was reading this list,

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Speaker 1: initially I thought, how much of our happiness is actually

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Speaker 1: in our own mind and a controllable by just the

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Speaker 1: shift of a narrative.

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Speaker 2: Well, as I said, fifty percent is genetic tea, twenty

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Speaker 2: percent is life circumstances. So there's some things that we

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Speaker 2: very much can control, and reframing is a great one,

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Speaker 2: and you know, working on just our daily habits, like,

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Speaker 2: that's what we can do. But I don't think. I

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Speaker 2: think when people say, like, oh, you know, you just

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Speaker 2: have to make up your mind to be happy, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: that's not very realistic. I don't think. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it probably could be done, but it's not the kind

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Speaker 2: of thing that most people could could do. And then,

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Speaker 2: you know, also one of the things that's confusing to

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Speaker 2: people is sometimes they think that because I'm always talking

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Speaker 2: about happiness, that my idea is that everybody should be

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Speaker 2: ten on the one to ten scale twenty four to seven,

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Speaker 2: and that is what we're all aiming for, is to

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Speaker 2: be perfectly happy at all times. That is not realistic,

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Speaker 2: and it wouldn't even be a good life, because, of course,

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Speaker 2: there are times when you want to feel sorrow, and

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Speaker 2: there are times when you want to feel righteous anger,

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Speaker 2: and there are times when you want to feel guilt

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Speaker 2: and regret and remorse. These are important emotions for us

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Speaker 2: to feel. And so a good life isn't a life

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Speaker 2: that's only positive emotions. It's a life where we're as

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Speaker 2: happy as we can be given our circumstances and our surroundings,

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Speaker 2: because why not be as happy as you can be.

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Speaker 2: But if you're like, Okay, I work for a boss

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Speaker 2: who's like really cruel and really mean to me, and like,

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Speaker 2: you know, is like making me feel terrible and I've

399
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Speaker 2: got a target on my back, it's like, Okay. The

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Speaker 2: point is not to make you feel like, oh, this

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Speaker 2: is great. It's to say, okay, let's think about what

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Speaker 2: Let's identify the problem, what is the problem, what you

403
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Speaker 2: know to understand it, and to use those negative emotions constructively,

404
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,399
Speaker 2: because to spur action when they should spur action. And

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Speaker 2: then if you're just like Okay, I'm ruminating in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the night, going over and over and over

407
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Speaker 2: the same thing, and that's what's straining me and bringing

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Speaker 2: me down, it's like, okay, well that's not constructive. So

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Speaker 2: what is a way to turn that to? You know,

410
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Speaker 2: this is something to worry it can it can be

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Speaker 2: constructive for you or stop being a negative.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean ship and I talk about this all

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Speaker 1: the time too. If you don't feel the bad feelings,

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Speaker 1: how would you know what the good ones actually feel like?

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Speaker 2: Either Well, this is a really interesting question. I keep

416
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Speaker 2: needing to ask like the scientific folk about this. Okay,

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Speaker 2: there's kind of a belief that like, if you don't

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Speaker 2: feel high highs, if you don't feel low lows, you

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Speaker 2: won't feel high highs.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sure that I agree with that.

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Speaker 2: Chip if you're a guy who you sounds like you

422
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Speaker 2: score high on the genetic lottery, Like, I don't think

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Speaker 2: that they do feel low loads. I mean, I feel

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Speaker 2: that they would feel low low if if if something

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Speaker 2: bad happened, like they would feel low. But I don't

426
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Speaker 2: feel like. I don't feel like it's like either you

427
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Speaker 2: have a wide range or you have a narrow range.

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Speaker 2: I think some people just bounce up and stay up. Yeah,

429
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Speaker 2: so I've wondered about that myself, Like is that true,

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Speaker 2: because sometimes people almost justify like, oh, I have all

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Speaker 2: these terrible, terrible feelings, but if I didn't have these

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Speaker 2: terrible feelings, I wouldn't have wonderful feelings. And I'm like,

433
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 2: I don't know that. I I don't know that. I

434
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 2: think that's so.

435
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess the end verse too.

436
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,040
Speaker 5: If if you're a person that is just prone to depression,

437
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 5: you're gonna the depression is going to be more prevalent

438
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 5: in your life probably than happiness. So it's just not

439
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 5: any it's not the see Saul right. Yeah, I mean

440
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,359
Speaker 5: I think it's it's more about appreciating the highs. Yes,

441
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 5: you don't if you don't allow yourself to be sad

442
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 5: in the moments where sadness is the most natural feeling.

443
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,239
Speaker 5: Because I am one of those people that tend to

444
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 5: like be like, well, you know, she's in a better place,

445
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 5: you know, And it's like, no, like be sad your

446
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 5: grandmother died, like let's all cry together or whatever.

447
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,240
Speaker 3: The situation is.

448
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 5: Right, because it's like you don't want to In the

449
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 5: same way you don't want to steal someone's joy, you

450
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 5: don't want to steal someone's sadness either.

451
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 2: True.

452
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, true, because they need to grieve.

453
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 1: I mean.

454
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 2: One of the most important things that I've actually read

455
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:57,920
Speaker 2: it in a parenting book. So it's a book aimed

456
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 2: at the parents of preschoolers, Like greatest parenting book of

457
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 2: all time caled how to Talk so kids will listen

458
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 2: and listen so kids will talk. Such a great book.

459
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,360
Speaker 2: But one of the things that they say is acknowledge

460
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 2: the reality of other people's feelings. So if a kid

461
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 2: says I'm hungry, you don't say you're not hungry, you

462
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,239
Speaker 2: just date. And if they say I don't like going

463
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 2: to Grandma's house, you don't say, of course you love going,

464
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 2: of course you love grandma. Of course you love going

465
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 2: to grandma's house. Or I'm scared of clowns, you don't

466
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 2: say you're not scared of clowns. Clowns are fun because

467
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 2: it's like, why would you deny the reality of their pace.

468
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,919
Speaker 2: And the fact is this works just as well for adults,

469
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 2: is that you need to acknowledge the reality of other

470
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 2: people's feelings. And if it's like, wow, I'm you know,

471
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 2: I'm really I'm really angry at you because like I

472
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 2: waited for the cable guy all day and you forgot

473
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 2: to tell me that the appointment was canceled or whatever.

474
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 2: It's like instead of being like, well, it's no big deal,

475
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 2: you were going to be home anyway, is to be like, wow,

476
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 2: that must have been really frustrated, because it is just

477
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 2: acknowledging the reality of what people feel and if they're

478
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 2: feeling deep sorrow, to allow them to feel deep sorrow

479
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 2: instead of like trying to cheer them up out of it. Yeah,

480
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 2: but I ain't allow it's very tempting. It's very tempting

481
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 2: to say to people. Although there's a way to look

482
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 2: at this, so it's all good.

483
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 5: Well, I think it's I know from my personal experience,

484
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 5: when I do it, it's so that I'm not uncomfortable.

485
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 3: And this isn't it's a self preservation thing. Yeah.

486
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 2: Well, in my book, so my most recent book is

487
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: called Life in Five Senses, and so it goes through

488
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 2: the senses and in the the the chapter on the

489
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 2: sense of hearing, I did a manifesto for listening because

490
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: I'm not a very good listener, and so it was

491
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 2: all the things I wanted to remind myself and that

492
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 2: what you say is exactly it's on my list because

493
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 2: one of them is allow like allow painful silences to fall,

494
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,160
Speaker 2: don't interrupt when somebody is talking about something difficult. Because

495
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 2: what I realized and I just I you can see

496
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: how I might be inclined to do it from what

497
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 2: I just said a minute ago. If somebody was talking

498
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 2: about something painful, I would immediately give a book book recommendation. Oh,

499
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 2: you're getting a divorced here's the best book. Everybody says

500
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 2: this is the most you're having trouble with your child,

501
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 2: read this book. This is a book about child friendships.

502
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: You'll find it so helpful. Instead of like email them

503
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 2: that later, but right now, the person is trying to

504
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: express a painful emotion, and I I was trying to

505
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 2: get them onto like more safe territory instead of allowing

506
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 2: them to say, I'm really worried about my son. He's

507
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 2: having all these problems in school, he's having problems with

508
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 2: the friends, and like allow that to like just sit

509
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: with that instead of trying to constantly move away. So

510
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 2: I think I think it's it's it's like a lot

511
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 2: of things. It's it's easier said than done to do

512
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,120
Speaker 2: the kind of the thing that's going to really help

513
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: you to connect with other people.

514
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: Why do you think that's so difficult for us? Like

515
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 1: as a society, are we programmed to just think we

516
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 1: have to feel happy all of the time. I've just

517
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about like empathy, the empathy piece

518
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: in our society right now, and I'm wondering what the

519
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 1: tie is there, Like if we can't understand how someone

520
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: else is feeling, are we just so uncomfortable with them

521
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 1: feeling bad, and we're.

522
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 4: Like, we've got to get out of this, We've got

523
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 4: to be happy.

524
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: An interesting question. It's funny because I think two things

525
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 2: were happening at once, because I think, on the one hand,

526
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 2: I don't think people think about their happiness nearly enough.

527
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 2: They don't really think about it. They don't really step

528
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 2: back and say, like, well, identify the problem. Why why

529
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 2: am I not happy? Like, ye, what are the Like?

530
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 2: Maybe you're not happy because you're just exhausted all the

531
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: time because you stay up till two o'clock every morning

532
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: binge watching back episodes of Grey's Anatomy. You know, if

533
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: you just got enough sleep, you might feel a lot better,

534
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 2: and so, like, you know, to make it very obvious.

535
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: So I think in the one hand, they don't think

536
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 2: about it enough. But then on the other hand, I

537
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: do think that for some people it's like, well I

538
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: need to and this comes up in a lot of

539
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 2: different ways, the kind of way you mentioned it, but

540
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: then also kind of like, well, I can't be uncomfortable,

541
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: and so I need to cut ties with anybody who

542
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 2: is difficult. Okay, I can't be exposed to something that's

543
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: going to make me sad. And yeah, so I think

544
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 2: there's a lot going on at once. I think the

545
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 2: world feels very chaotic right now, and so maybe some

546
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 2: people feel like they need to shut down certain things

547
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: in order to protect themselves. Yeah, and I think if

548
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 2: that's the case for you, you need to think about, Okay, well,

549
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 2: how do I how do I manage my environment, even

550
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 2: my sensory environment, so that I feel like I can

551
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: maintain myself in a healthy way and yet also be

552
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 2: like civically engaged and engaged with people who may be

553
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: difficult or going through problems, but that I still want

554
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: to have in my life. It's complicated, it is.

555
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: We talk about just the absorbing all the news that's

556
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: happening all the time now and how that actually affects

557
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: both of our happiness. Like we have to put boundaries

558
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: up about what articles we're reading because it's everywhere. Right

559
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: we open social media, it's you're getting flooded with that.

560
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: I open my email inbox, There's a million things from

561
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: New York Times to anything else you turn maybe all

562
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: of that.

563
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 2: Here are some just practical things for people to think about.

564
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 2: One is turn off notifications, like if something happens like

565
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: you'll find out you don't need to be notified like

566
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 2: same day, so turn off your notifications. I'm a big

567
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: fan of reading physical news, Like I still get three

568
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: newspapers delivered to my door every day, and like you

569
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: could have objections to that, like from environmental reasons, but

570
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 2: I do think it's much better to read the news

571
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: in a physical form because then there's no comments and

572
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: there's no endless scroll. It's like you read the newspaper

573
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 2: and then it's done, so it's not something that can

574
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: take up three or four hours. You might choose one

575
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 2: news source and not have many of them, like you

576
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: know sometimes people have they have this one and this

577
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: one and this one and this one. They just kind

578
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: of go through them and see what's there. It's like

579
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 2: if that, if you feel like that, that is draining you,

580
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: because we all, I believe, have a duty to be

581
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: civically engaged and knowledgeable about what's happening in the world.

582
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: But a lot of times, like you get that stuff

583
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 2: pretty quick and you're getting drawn into the things that

584
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: are kind of like potato chip news, Like the more

585
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: you have, the more you want. It draws you in,

586
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: it gets you all fired up. Another thing like you

587
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: know when you watch like news on TV or something

588
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: like that. It has music, it's cut, cut, it's made

589
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 2: to be emotional, it's made to like really like you

590
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: very very engaged, and that can be very draining. So

591
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: as much as you can bring down that level so

592
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 2: that you're really getting the facts and the information that

593
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 2: you need from a source that you believe to be credible,

594
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: but not with a lot of stuff around it. If

595
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: you so, I would say, like pick a few sources,

596
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: not a lot of sources. Don't get it off social media.

597
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: Go to a news site and get it from a

598
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: credible news site. If you feel very compelled by your

599
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: phone and you kind of can't look away from your phone,

600
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: try turning your phone to gray scale, so that it's

601
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: in black, white, and gray instead of color, and you

602
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: will find that you are very much less tempted to

603
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: use your phone. It's much more cumbersome and less fun

604
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: to use a black and white phone. And if you

605
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: have a kid who's always wanted to use one of

606
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 2: your devices, turn your device to black, white and gray

607
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: and you will see that and just tell your child

608
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: that it broke, to say it's broken. We can't get

609
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 2: it fixed, and they will be less compelled by it

610
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: as well. And so sometimes like sometimes we're like I

611
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: need to change my mindsets, are to change your mindset?

612
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 2: But if you delete that app off your phone, I

613
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: assure you you will go to it far less. You

614
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 2: can go to it on desktop if you want, You

615
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: can download it every time you need it. But if

616
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 2: you don't, if it's not just a click away, are

617
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: you going to go to it? Probably not.

618
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk a little bit about the literal housekeeping

619
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: of how this contributes to our happiness. Because in outer order,

620
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: in or calm, you talk about clutter really contributing to unhappiness.

621
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: Why okay, well, I have to make an important distinction

622
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: because some people are clutter blind, Like this is my sister,

623
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: she's the co host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin

624
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: podcast with me, she's clutterblind. And for people are clutter blind,

625
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: and you probably know who they are, you know if

626
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: you are, like, they don't see it. The cabinet doors

627
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: are open, the closes are all over the place, and

628
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: they just don't care. Okay, oh okay, well, so in

629
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,719
Speaker 2: these people they don't care, and so like on balance,

630
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: it's nice for them when things are tidier, but it

631
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 2: doesn't really bother them the way it would bother people

632
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: who are not clutter blind. And I'm one of those people.

633
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: And so for one thing is if you don't care,

634
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: don't do it. There's no magic to it. If you

635
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: don't like to make your bed, don't make your bed.

636
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: For a lot of people make you their bed, is

637
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: like it's like the number one minor have a change

638
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: that boosts their happiness. I don't know why, but people

639
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: tell me that over and over, make your bed. But

640
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: if you feel like I don't care if I make

641
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: my bed, or if you feel like it's a big

642
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: ways to make my bed, I just unmake my bed

643
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: every night, or if you feel like I grew up

644
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: I had to make my bed and now I'm a

645
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: grown up and I'm not going to right, it's like right, don't.

646
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: There's no magic to it. It's just that for many

647
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: people it does contribute to their happiness. If it does,

648
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: then do it. If it doesn't, don't worry about it.

649
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: Now you can get into conflict because a lot of

650
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: times people who are clutter blind are sharing space with

651
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: people who care, and so then you're like then it's

652
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: not just. But I think what's different is instead of

653
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: saying I'm right, you're wrong or the right thing to

654
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: do is to make your bed every day, you're wrong

655
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: for not making your bettervery day, or not wanting to

656
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: make your bet every day, or forgetting to make your

657
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: bet every day because you just don't care. It's this

658
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: is my preference, and you have a different preference. So

659
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: how do we create an environment where we both feel comfortable?

660
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: Because if I walk in here and I feel like

661
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: I can't sit down and relax unless I spend an

662
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: hour tiding up because you've made such a mess in here,

663
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: that's not good for me. On the other hand, if

664
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: you feel like I have an unrealistically high standard of

665
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: however organized everything's going to be, and so you feel

666
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: like why am I living? Why am I being trapped

667
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: in all these bureaucratic red tape rules in my own house,

668
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, let's talk about that, and like, how

669
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: do we come up with rules that we feel like

670
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: we can both live with. But in my observation, a

671
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: lot of times people want to say, well, I'm right

672
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 2: and you're wrong, and so I have to convince you,

673
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: which by the way you're not going to write because

674
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: it's a matter of preference. So if you say, like

675
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: why it really annoys me that you never hang up

676
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: your coat, It's like, what if we used hooks? Do

677
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: you think you could put Could you put your coat

678
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: on a hook because it's just that much easier, Or

679
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 2: like I don't like the way their shoes will all

680
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: around the front door. Can I put a bin and

681
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: everybody puts their shoes in the bin. They're not taking

682
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: them to their bedrooms and putting them in their closets,

683
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: which would my ideal, But could you put them in

684
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: a bin so they're at least like out of the way.

685
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: And people are like, I could put them in a

686
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: bin so you can find you can find because for

687
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: many people like me, out of order contributes to in

688
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: her calm and it's really important. And it's also a

689
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: way like like I said, I'll go over to my

690
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: sister's house and clear her clutter because she's clutterblise. She

691
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: doesn't care, but there's all this beautiful low hanging fruit

692
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: for me.

693
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 3: I love it.

694
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: But if we live together, we would have to come

695
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: up with a way that I wouldn't drive her bonkers.

696
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: And she wouldn't drive me bonkers.

697
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: Right, Well, you mentioned a hook, and I think that's

698
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: an interesting transition because in Better Than Before you just

699
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: talk about habits and how much of our just daily

700
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: habits contribute to our happiness. So is it something as

701
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: simple as that, like walking in the door having the

702
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: hook available, So the new habit becomes hanging in on

703
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: the hook?

704
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 4: How does that work?

705
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny because so better than before, it's the

706
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 2: twenty one habit strategies that we can use to make

707
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: or break our habits. And there's all these strategies. Some

708
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 2: work well for every just about everyone, and some work

709
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: really well for some people. Been up brothers. So there's

710
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: twenty one. But one of the most universal ones, and

711
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: it's really a pair they're paired, is the strategy of

712
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: convenience and the strategy of inconvenience. To a hilarious degree,

713
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: we are most more likely to do something if it's

714
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: even slightly more convenient, like they did this study showing

715
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: that people take less food from a buffet if you

716
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: have to use tongs instead of spoons, because a tong

717
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: is just a little bit more work and so anyway,

718
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: so these little fixes, so you can use this because

719
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: it's like if it's slightly easier to use a bin

720
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: then to put the shoes away, if it's slightly easier

721
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: to use a hook than a hanger, you could really

722
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: dramatically affect how much consistently people would stick to that

723
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: habit and how much easy it would be to form

724
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 2: that habit and keep it regularly. Of course, you can

725
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: use it in the opposite way, like let's say there's

726
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: something that you don't want yourself to do. So let's

727
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: say you have a habit of like coming home every

728
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: day and turning on the TV, and once the TV's on,

729
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: you like stand there and then you sit down and

730
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: then two hours go by. So it's like, okay, keep

731
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 2: the remote control in another room on a high shelf

732
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 2: if you run it. If you want to watch TV,

733
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: you can go get the remote. It's not like you can't.

734
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: It's just not so convenient. Or it's like if you

735
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: don't people, I was talking to a guy, it's like

736
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: it's terrible. I know it's terrible. I text while I drive,

737
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: but you know, I just can't break the habit. How

738
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: do I work on my motivation so that I don't

739
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: text while I drive, I'm like, don't worry about your motivation.

740
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: Put your car in that, put your put your phone

741
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: in the trunk. Then you know you can. You can.

742
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: You can want to text all you want, But you say,

743
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: if you leave it right there on the seat next

744
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: to you, every time it pings, you're going to look

745
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: at it like, don't work. Don't work on your motivation

746
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: in your mind, work on your surroundings. It's so much easier.

747
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: So strategy of convenience, strategy be inconvenience is a great

748
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: way to do that.

749
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: Out of the twelve commandments that you wrote about in

750
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: the Happiness Project, is there one that you feel just

751
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: really was the one that changed your life?

752
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's b Grutchen, which is not the one, And

753
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: everybody has to substitute their own names. So Kelly, be Chip,

754
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: don't be Grutching.

755
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: But it's really like I don't want to be.

756
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 2: For each of us, it's different, our own our happiness

757
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: project is different because we have different values, different interests,

758
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: different situations, different challenges and so like for me, I

759
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: had a whole I do a lot of habits and

760
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: stuff related to reading because that's a really really high

761
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 2: value to me. But for somebody else, it might be

762
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 2: about music, and it might be about I want to

763
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: go to more concerts and I want to practice my instrument,

764
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 2: and I want to join a join or start a band,

765
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: and I want to listen to new music, you know.

766
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: And they might have a lot of habits and a

767
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 2: whole happiness project related to that, and you know what, well,

768
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: part of life in five senses, one of the things

769
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 2: I figured out is what is my most neglected sense? Okay,

770
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: and there's a quiz I people want to know their

771
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: most neglected sense. Gretchenmuben dot com slash quiz, We'll tell

772
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: you your most neglected sense. So my most neglected sense

773
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: is taste. But I also know that my second most

774
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: neglected sense is hearing. And I'm just really not a

775
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: music person, but from and I did a lot to

776
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: like tap more into my love of music as part

777
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: of that project. But for many people, the most appreciated

778
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: sense is the sense of hearing. And for a big

779
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: reason of that is because of music. Because so many

780
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 2: people love music and it's such an important part of

781
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 2: a happier life for them. But for me, not so much,

782
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: or like I don't meditate, I've tried twice. It's just

783
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 2: not a tool that works for me. For other people,

784
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: of meditation is like a central aspect of what they

785
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 2: would do. And so instead of saying, Gretchen, you must

786
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: learn to meditate, you have to do it. Everybody says

787
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: it works. If it doesn't work for you, you're doing

788
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: it wrong or there's something wrong for you. It's like

789
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: I tried it, didn't work for me. I tried it again,

790
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: didn't work for me, So I'm moving on. It's not

791
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 2: part of what I want to do. But for somebody

792
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: else that could be crucial. So we each have to

793
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: figure out our own So B Gretchen, B Kelly be

794
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: Chip is about think about yourself. Are you a morning

795
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: person or a night person? Are you clutter blind or

796
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: a simplicity person? You know, all these things have to

797
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: be you know, considered because because we're each individual's.

798
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that because that is the that is

799
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: the definition of housekeeping internally to me is to really

800
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 1: get to know yourself authentically.

801
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so true.

802
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: Well, and it's it's tough right now.

803
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 5: I mean we live in a world now where you know,

804
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 5: everyone's trying to put everybody in boxes. So you know,

805
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 5: it's we're told, we're being told by the powers of

806
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 5: being that we can't be ourselves. So how do we

807
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 5: overcome that sort of external stimulation?

808
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. Yeah, that's a really profound point because it

809
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 2: is a challenge. It's funny because people are always being

810
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: told to be authentic and it's like, you're like, what

811
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: does that even mean? But to think about that, yeah,

812
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,919
Speaker 2: it is. I think I think that is the great

813
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: challenge of our lives. I mean, I think there is

814
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: no simple answer to that, because it's very, very hard

815
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 2: to know ourselves were. It's very easy to be influenced

816
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: by the way we wish we were, you know, by

817
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: the fantasy self, by the way other people want us

818
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: to be, by kind of what we assume must be true.

819
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: I remember when I learned that I don't like shopping.

820
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: I was like, I thought everybody like shopping.

821
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 3: I never hurted me, I don't.

822
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: I'm like, I yeah, so there's underbuyars and over bars.

823
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm an underbuyar. I remember a friend of

824
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 2: mine I forget. She like, she's like joined a country club,

825
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 2: her family joined a country club, And I was like,

826
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: how do you like the country club? And she says oh, Gretchen,

827
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 2: you know I hate the outdoors, and I'm just can

828
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 2: a person hate the outdoors? It seemed to be inconceivable

829
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 2: to me, but here she was saying that, just like, oh, yeah,

830
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: what are you gonna do? I'm like, Wow, that just

831
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 2: blows my mind. Of course she can hate the outdoors.

832
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 2: I like the outdoors. But but so I think it's

833
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 2: very confusing. I think it can be very confusing. And

834
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: it's also confusing because on the one hand, we want

835
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: to accept ourselves and on the other hand, we want

836
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 2: to expect more from ourselves. So we want to be

837
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: true to our nature and accept what is true about

838
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: our deepest self and accept that because there are some

839
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: things that I am not and I will never be,

840
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: and let go of that. And sometimes that's painful to

841
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: let go of that. But then also I want to

842
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 2: expect more for myself and I want to know what

843
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: is what can I expect from myself? And again no

844
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 2: one can tell me that because only I know, Because

845
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 2: you know, it's like public speaking. Is this something where

846
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: you're like, this is just so contrary to my nature

847
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: that I just I just have to let it go.

848
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: Or is it for as it is? For many people

849
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 2: something like it makes me really really nervous. But I

850
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 2: think if I did it enough, I would chill out

851
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: and it would be okay. And so I'm going to

852
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 2: work on that and and and expect more from myself

853
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: and do something that pushes me outside of my comfort zone.

854
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 2: But for some people, there are just things where it's

855
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 2: just it's just not who they are. I remember saying

856
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 2: to somebody it make because I was talking about the

857
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: sadness of accepting who you are, and I said, it

858
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: just kind of makes me sad that I'll know I

859
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 2: will never go to a jazz club at midnight. And

860
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: somebody wrote to me on social media and they're like, Gretchen,

861
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: you live in New York City. You could you could

862
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: absolutely go to a jazz club at midial. And I

863
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 2: was like, the thing is that I could go to

864
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 2: a jazz club at midnight. The problem is I will

865
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: never want to go to And I want to be

866
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 2: kind of person who wants to go to a jazz

867
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: club in midnight, but I'm not, and I don't want

868
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: to just pretend like that is something that I have

869
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: to work about, let it go and think about what

870
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: I want and what is true for me, and that's

871
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 2: very confusing. And I think it's something that we have

872
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: to reflect on all and it changes over time. So

873
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: I think it's something that takes just constant reflection. I really,

874
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 2: I really think it's a crucial question. But it's not

875
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: an easy question.

876
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 1: Well. I actually love that you pointed out though, that

877
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: that's our lifelong journey.

878
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 4: Yes, isn't that why we're all here?

879
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: And as you said, it's going to change, it's going

880
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: to evolve. So things like these twelve commandments help you

881
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: to just stay in touch with that, yes, instead of

882
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: just like losing touch.

883
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: Well, and it's interesting about the twelve commandments. This is

884
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 2: a really fun exercise, I think for anybody because it's

885
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: not like things like make your bed. It's not about like,

886
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 2: you know, go for a twenty minute walk every day.

887
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: It's not these like it's more about what are the

888
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: principles by which you want to live your life? And

889
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 2: I had twelve, but there was no matter. That's just

890
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: what I in the end, like I had more, I

891
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 2: had less. I combined. I said, some things didn't rise

892
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 2: to the level. So you could have five, you could

893
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 2: have fifteen. I wouldn't have thirty, But to come up

894
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: with your personal commandments, to really think about, like what

895
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: how do you express your deepest aims for yourself in

896
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: a kind of a succinct way. What's interesting about mine

897
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,919
Speaker 2: is that many of these are quotations from other people.

898
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: There are things that people said to me that resonated

899
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: so deeply that I'm like, oh, this is this is

900
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: really really important. Or a quotation like one is from

901
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: my spiritual teacher, Saint Reslizia. She said, when one loves

902
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: one does not calculate. And I when I read that,

903
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm a bean counter, i am a scored keeper.

904
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: If you took a nap today, I'd take a nap tomorrow,

905
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 2: you know. And I'm like, that's no way to live,

906
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: no calculation, you know. So part of it is like

907
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: what what does resonate with you? Like what do you

908
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: find your self kind of aiming for or reflecting on

909
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: or reminding yourself of. These are things that I was

910
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 2: like reminding myself of all the time, and I'm like, okay,

911
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: these are so these are my personal commandments. So I

912
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: mean it took me months and months, but I have

913
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 2: to say I wrote that years and years ago and

914
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: have never changed them because once I found them, they

915
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: really have been my like sort of my true my

916
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 2: true guides. But it's a really interesting exercise to do

917
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 2: for yourself.

918
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the point you made when you were

919
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: talking about those where you said, I think I'm not

920
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: giving to word it wrong, but it was something about

921
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: people aren't paying as much attention to your mistakes as

922
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: you are.

923
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 4: That one like pinged for me.

924
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: But I just constantly think, oh, they're just going to

925
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: see all this stuff, and it's like nobody cares what

926
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: you're doing.

927
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 4: Really, we have that's.

928
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: Called the spotlight bias. The spotlight biases being very well,

929
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: it's that you feel like we feel like we're in

930
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 2: the spotlight. We're very self conscious because we think people

931
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: are very aware of our mistakes or our mishaps or

932
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: like you know, like we spilled something on our T shirt.

933
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: And it's just like you said, people aren't paying much attension.

934
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 3: And also most.

935
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: People need they got. They're more chilled than you think.

936
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: You know. It's like if you trip on the way,

937
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: you know, on your way upstate on stage, nobody's going

938
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 2: to think about that for one more second. You know,

939
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 2: you drop your papers, nobody cares you take too long

940
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,479
Speaker 2: in the coffee shop line, and everybody's rolling their eyes.

941
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 2: It's like they're not going to be thinking about it

942
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: in ten seconds from now, but you might feel terrible

943
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: all day long, right right, it's just to remember, like

944
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: you in a way, it's like you're just not that important,

945
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 2: you know, and there's comfort in that you know other

946
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 2: people just aren't paying that much attention.

947
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: Well, I was gonna ask you if you feel pressure,

948
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: as Gretchen Reuben to just be happy all the time.

949
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: But I feel like what I see in you is

950
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: that you've kind of set up a system for living

951
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: with yourself. And so even if you seem like I mean,

952
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: if even I would imagine if you're fluctuating between happiness

953
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: or maybe not so happy moments, you have the tools now,

954
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 1: which to me, is what life is about.

955
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 4: Do you feel that absolutely?

956
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: I do feel that way, and if you put it

957
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: very well, like I do, I do feel sadness, annoyance, regret, gill, boredom, frustration,

958
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 2: all all those things, and I don't I don't feel

959
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: like it's wrong for me to feel those or like somehow, I,

960
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 2: like you were saying Chip earlier, I don't feel like

961
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: it's part of my identity that I don't feel those,

962
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: but I do feel like I have a lot of

963
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 2: tools now to deal with it. So, like, if I'm

964
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 2: really in a bad mood, I'm like, Okay, I got

965
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 2: ten things that I can do kind of in order

966
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 2: of importance and and like and and I have a

967
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: lot of ways to try to manage it in a

968
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: way that's constructive. I mean, one thing that a lot

969
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: of times people do is you turn to an unhealthy

970
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: treat and so it's something that makes you feel better

971
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,240
Speaker 2: in the moment, but then it just makes you feel

972
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 2: worse long term. So I have a long list of

973
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 2: healthy treats of things that I can do if I

974
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 2: need a little lyft or a little boost of energy,

975
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 2: or like, what are the things that I know will

976
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: always give me comfort. I'm one of these. I'm like

977
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 2: a real sleep zalet And like a lot of times,

978
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: if I'm feeling really blue, I'm like, I just know myself.

979
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: I know I'll feel better after a good night's sleep,

980
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 2: And if I go to bed at a thirty probably

981
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 2: if I'm feeling really low, I'll be to fall asleep.

982
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 2: And because fortunately for me, it has that effect and

983
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: then I'll feel better in the morning. So why don't

984
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: I just kind of put this to the side. I'll

985
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: have a night's sleep, and then in the morning, I'll

986
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: deal with whatever it is, and I'll probably be able

987
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 2: to deal with it more constructively. So because I think

988
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 2: sometimes people we know these tools, but we sort of

989
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: forget that we could use them. Or like, if people

990
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: love music, one of the quickest easiest ways to intervene

991
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 2: in your mood is to listen to to a like

992
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 2: an upbeat song that you love. And so this is

993
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 2: something that everybody has kind of in even somebody who's

994
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: not a music lover like me. I have a few

995
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: songs that I love and it's like, but you have

996
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: to think, oh, why didn't I do that? Or it's

997
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: like I always get a lift when I walk around

998
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 2: my neighborhood with my dog, Like I see my neighbors,

999
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 2: I get some fresh air, get the sun in my face.

1000
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: I like spend time with my dog. He's always so

1001
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 2: happy to go outside, like just gives me a lift.

1002
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, but you gotta think of that, think, Hey,

1003
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: why do you grab the leash and grab your dog

1004
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: and go outside and go for a walk, because you

1005
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: know that's going to make you feel better. I think

1006
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 2: sometimes we like because we're just like you said, busyness,

1007
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: we're so busy, or we just don't have the self

1008
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: aware to say, like, wow, you know I'm feeling really low.

1009
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: What is something that I could do? Not to minimize

1010
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: what I'm feeling or pretend like I'm not feeling it,

1011
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: but are there some small constructive things that maybe would

1012
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: help me manage my feelings more effectively, either by giving

1013
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 2: myself a quick lift so I can deal with a

1014
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 2: problem more effectively, giving myself more energy, giving myself more

1015
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 2: social support. Almost always, like when we connect with somebody,

1016
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 2: even something like a sales clerk or a quick chat

1017
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 2: with a neighbor or like or a deeper connection with

1018
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 2: a friend or a family member or a coworker like

1019
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 2: these these give us a feeling of engagement and comfort.

1020
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 2: But you have to say to yourself, okay, like, what

1021
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 2: are some tools? What might what might I do? And

1022
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: it's and again it's not to pretend like you're not

1023
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: feeling bad or that you're you're gonna sweep it under

1024
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: the rug, but it's like if I felt better, more energetic,

1025
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: more supported, I would probably be able to deal with

1026
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: this better and to say, are there things low hanging

1027
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: fruit that I can do?

1028
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've mentioned multiple of your books, but you said

1029
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: the latest is Life in Five Senses. Can you tell

1030
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 1: the listeners a little bit about that book?

1031
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, every book I write, I think it's

1032
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: never going to be this good again, because this is

1033
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 2: the most fun book to write. And this book, oh

1034
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 2: my gosh, what a delightful book this was. So I

1035
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: went to the eye doctor one day I had pinkie

1036
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 2: and he told me, oh, you know, be sure to

1037
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 2: come back for your uh, for your next for your

1038
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: regular appointment, because as you know, you're more at risk

1039
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 2: of losing your vision. And I was like, wait, what

1040
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 2: are you talking about. I did not know that. He' said, oh, yeah,

1041
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: you know you're you're so near sighted, you're at risk

1042
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: for getting a detached retina and that can that can

1043
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: take away your vision, so be sure to come back.

1044
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: And I was like, and I have a friend who

1045
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: had lost some of his vision to a detached retina,

1046
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 2: so that felt very real to me. So I walked

1047
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 2: out into the street and I realized I was taking

1048
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 2: all this for granted, like I'm shocked by the prospect

1049
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 2: of losing my vision. But I didn't notice one thing

1050
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 2: around me as I was walking there in New York City,

1051
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 2: and in a single moment, it was like every sight

1052
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 2: was sharpened, every sound became was like on a separate track.

1053
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: I could smell every smell in New York City, which

1054
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 2: is very smelly, like it all just flooded into me

1055
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: and it was like this transcendent, almost psychedelic experience for

1056
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 2: my whole walk home. And that showed me that, you know,

1057
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: I've been studying happiness for years, but this showed me like,

1058
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: this is something that I have been I've been stuck

1059
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 2: in my head. I've been lost in my own thoughts.

1060
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 2: I'm not connecting with the world around me, which also

1061
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 2: means that I'm not connecting as deeply with the people

1062
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: around me as I could. And you know, I looked

1063
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: at my husband and I was like, when was the

1064
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 2: last time I really looked at him? You know? And

1065
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: so that's that made me realize, Okay, I've got I

1066
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: need to focus on the five senses. And this was

1067
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 2: just such a delightful and for whatever aim, you have

1068
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: to make yourself happier, healthier, more productive, more creative. There's

1069
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: a way to do it through the five senses. If

1070
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 2: you want to calm yourself down, you could think. And

1071
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: we all know the five senses, so it's easy to

1072
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: think of ideas. If I said you want to calm down,

1073
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: use your five senses, you could think of idea. If

1074
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 2: I said you want to pump yourself up and give

1075
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: yourself more energy, through the five senses, you would have

1076
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 2: ideas for that. If I said you need to daydream

1077
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: and think outside the box, you could use the five senses.

1078
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 2: If I said you need to buckle down and do

1079
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 2: that dredge work, you could use the five senses. If

1080
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: I said engage with the moment or connect with the past,

1081
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: the five senses and then it's superpower too was connecting

1082
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 2: us with other people. So it's like any direction you

1083
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 2: want to go. And the thing I like about using

1084
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 2: the five senses is usually it feels it's so concrete.

1085
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 2: It's that immersive feeling. It's that feeling of being inside

1086
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: the body I think everybody's craving these days. It just

1087
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 2: feels playful and fun and manageable. Like I just it's

1088
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: just the happiest kind of like space to be in.

1089
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I had all my friends. I had my

1090
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: friends over for a taste party, and I had them

1091
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 2: all taste Heinz Ketchup. And Hein's Ketchup is like a

1092
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 2: magic food. It has all five tastes sweet, sour, bitter, salty,

1093
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: and umami. That's very, very unusual that you could hit

1094
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: all five senses, all five tastes. And people were like,

1095
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 2: their mind, this is like bonkers to them. They were like,

1096
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 2: this is amazing, This is so complex, this is so sophisticated.

1097
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 2: Now I understand, like why it's a secret ingredient in

1098
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: so many foods because Heinz Ketchup. There's a reason that

1099
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 2: we all have Heines ketch beinner because it's it's it's

1100
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 2: it's it's this exceptional experience that we're all taking for granted.

1101
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,240
Speaker 2: And it's right there. It's right in your fridge. There's

1102
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 2: packets of it in your glove box right this second.

1103
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 2: Like and but if you would stop and just go

1104
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 2: taste it. A friend of mine was like, if I

1105
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: didn't know this was ketchup, I would think it was

1106
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 2: some like rare, super expensive like imported ingredient because it's

1107
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 2: so try it you will see it's that the mouthfield,

1108
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 2: the like, the initial, the back the way I mean

1109
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 2: it's and then see if you can if you could

1110
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 2: taste the sweet, the sour, the bitter, the salty, and

1111
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 2: the mommy, I mean the only like some things hit four,

1112
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,280
Speaker 2: like a margarita is for, but it doesn't have a mommy.

1113
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 2: It's very hard to have all five. What is the mommy?

1114
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: I don't even know.

1115
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 2: Ummmy is what's interesting that you don't know ummmy because

1116
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 2: that came. That's the most recent of the kind of

1117
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 2: in the West we have five senses that we principally

1118
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 2: talk about. That's the most recent. It was identified in

1119
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 2: nineteen o eight by a scientist, so it's pretty it's

1120
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 2: a recent. Umammy is kind of hurdiness or meatiness. So

1121
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:22,280
Speaker 2: tomato sauce has umammy, meat has umammy, mushrooms have umammy. Okay,

1122
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 2: it's like that feeling of like savoriness. It's kind of

1123
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 2: like hurdiness. So you know, ketchup feels substantial. It feels

1124
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 2: like it feels like a like a hurdy feeling, whereas

1125
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 2: something else might not might not have that umammy, like

1126
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: lemonade doesn't have umami, right, like it doesn't. It feels thin,

1127
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: it feel it doesn't have that hurdiness. Yeah, there's a

1128
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 2: lot of senses. There are a lot of tastes that

1129
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: people are arguing for. Like, so they are all these

1130
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 2: sort of like wannabes that some people are arguing for.

1131
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: But these are the big these are these are the

1132
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 2: big five? Right now we've all accepted.

1133
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I will put the description that will put

1134
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: the link for that book in all Gretchen's book in

1135
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: the description of this podcast.

1136
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 4: You can find them on her website.

1137
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: On her website, you can also find a link to

1138
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: the Happier app and the Happier Podcast. So will you

1139
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,439
Speaker 1: tell us what the listeners will find in both of those?

1140
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 2: Okay, the Happier app is this. So one thing we

1141
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: didn't talk about at all is I have this personality

1142
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 2: framework that divides people into four categories, upholders questions of lies,

1143
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 2: and that tells you a lot about like how you

1144
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 2: can most effectively manage your habits or deal with conflict,

1145
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 2: or or if you know someone else's tendency can help you,

1146
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 2: like work with them more effectively, which I think is

1147
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,399
Speaker 2: even more interesting to people. How to get other people

1148
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 2: to do what you want. So so the Happier app

1149
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 2: uses that framework to help you figure out what habit

1150
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 2: formation tools are most likely to work with you, so

1151
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: don't have to just throw spaghett against the walls. But

1152
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: it has been you can use any of the tools.

1153
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: So there's like a one sentence journal, don't break the chain,

1154
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 2: a photo journal, accountability partners, plus it has like quotations

1155
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 2: and jumpstarts. There's a lot going on there to help

1156
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 2: people stick to their happier boosting habits. So that's the

1157
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 2: Happier app. And then my podcast is called Happier with

1158
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 2: Gretchen Rubin. It's a weekly podcast. My co host is

1159
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 2: my sister, Elizabeth Kraft. She's the clutter blind one. She's

1160
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 2: a Hollywood show runner, so she's got a big Hollywood job,

1161
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 2: and so there we talk about kind of cutting edge

1162
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 2: science and the wisdom of the ages, suggestions from our

1163
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 2: listeners and from our own experiences about how to be happier,

1164
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 2: and it's very kind of practical. Yeah, yeah, I feel.

1165
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: Like all of your tools are actually really practical, Like

1166
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 1: the tangible step I love having like a list of things,

1167
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: or like the actual steps are paying attention to the

1168
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: senses you're just getting in your body like that all

1169
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: feels very practical and tangible to me.

1170
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know about you, but I get very

1171
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: frustrated when people talk in abstractions run like I agree

1172
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 2: with you, but I just am not understanding how.

1173
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 4: Do I do it?

1174
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 2: You know, starting tomorrow? What would I do different that?

1175
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 2: And so I like it when people are like, here's

1176
00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 2: fifteen things, Yes, here's two because a lot of time

1177
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 2: times and we see this with our listeners, is like

1178
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 2: it's something that is very easy and even fun, but

1179
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 2: it just never occurred to you, Like it's just like

1180
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 2: a new idea that you're like, oh I could I

1181
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 2: could do that, or like somebody points something out, like

1182
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: you know, like one thing that we do on the

1183
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,720
Speaker 2: podcast is, uh, we do what's called like a twenty

1184
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 2: three for twenty three list. So for for twenty two,

1185
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 2: it was twenty two for twenty two. You just make

1186
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 2: a list of twenty three things you want to get

1187
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: done in twenty twenty three, and then we do it

1188
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the year. We check in at

1189
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 2: that in halfway day, which is July second, and then

1190
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 2: at the end and it's just like just by writing

1191
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: them down and checking the list a couple of times,

1192
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 2: you're much more likely to get those things done. And

1193
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, once, but nobody. It's kind of fun

1194
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 2: that it incorporates the year. But then people do funny

1195
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 2: things like they'll do they'll do it's I want to

1196
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 2: do five things because it's two plus three or whatever,

1197
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 2: and it's like, you just need somebody to suggest that

1198
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 2: because it's not like it's not like it's so out

1199
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 2: of the out of the box, and it's not like

1200
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 2: you couldn't do it yourself if you thought of it,

1201
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 2: but you just never did think of it. And somebody

1202
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: says it, it's like, oh, I could do.

1203
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: That, that's osn Yeah exactly. Well, you guys go check

1204
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: it out. This conversation has made me very happy Gretchen

1205
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: for being I feel.

1206
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 2: Like I have no enjoy it.

1207
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: You guys go check out Gretchen Rubben dot com for

1208
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 1: all your happiness. Toolkits and Gretchen, thank you so much

1209
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: for being here.

1210
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 4: We really appreciate it.

1211
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 2: Thank you. I was so happy to be part of

1212
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 2: this conversation.