1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: You can't see this, but I'll describe it. This is 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 2: one that a psychopath named Dennis Rader came up with. 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: He causes cube, and so in my hand, I have 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: a cube and on each side there is a label 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: like church leader, employee, family man, serial killer. And that's 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 2: what psychopaths take advantage of. They have no roots in 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 2: any of these. All of them are part of their identity. 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: They can pivot quickly to which everyone works for them 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: in any given situation. 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 3: I'm also the host of. 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: The historical true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked On Exactly Right. 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: I've traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: I've interviewed some people in person and some from my 18 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: home studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. 19 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: They've had so many great true crime stories, and now 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: we want to tell you those stories with details that 21 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: is about the choices that writers make. Good and bad. 23 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: It's a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 3: I'm Katherine Ramsland. 25 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 2: I'm a professor of forensic psychology and the author of 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 2: Confession of a serial Killer, what I call a guided 27 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: autobiography of Dennis Raider, the BTK serial killer. 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: Doctor Ramsland had unprecedented access to one of the most 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: notorious serial killers in American history. She's a real life 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: mind hunter. She spent years working with Dennis Rader to 31 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: figure out his psyche why he became a killer. 32 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: It wasn't just Dennis Raider talking about himself in any 33 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: which way he wanted. It was me guiding him toward 34 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: the end of benefiting criminal justice, psychology, and law enforcement, 35 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: so that whatever we were doing would end up providing 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 2: insights and also the proceeds benefit the victim's families. 37 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: Before we get started, let me tell you the story 38 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: of Dennis Rader. Raider killed ten people in Kansas over 39 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: thirty years before he was finally caught. BTK stands for 40 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: bind torture kill. One of the things that was so 41 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: frightening about Rader is that he seemed relatively normal. 42 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 3: This is from her book. 43 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: Through jail house visits, telephone calls, and written correspondence. Catherine 44 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: Ramslin worked with Raider himself to analyze the layers of 45 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: his psyche, using his drawings, letters, interviews, and Raider's unique codes. 46 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: She presents in meticulous detail the childhood, roots and development 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: of one man's motivation to stalk, torture, and kill. 48 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: Dennis Rader grew up an all American boy in Kansas, 49 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 2: you know, the heart of America, with religious values and 50 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: intact family, etc. And yet he developed the idea that 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: he wanted to be famous. He got attachments to serial 52 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: killers he read about as a teenager in true detective 53 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: magazines and girls made him feel uncomfortable and off balance. 54 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: So he began to put those things together as a 55 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 2: way to keep women under control. Was began to become famous, 56 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: was to become a serial killer. So his fantasies began 57 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: to form around that notion. And then he I just 58 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 2: identified with one day he was going to be as 59 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: famous as Jack the Ripper or Ted Bundy or any 60 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: of the other ones. 61 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 3: And he said, about to do that, what is his 62 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 3: childhood like? 63 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: Though? 64 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: This is someone who was a normal childhood, because we 65 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: often hear obviously people who are serial killers come from 66 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: bad backgrounds. 67 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: He did not come from a bad day background. And 68 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: why I like this case is because he is an outlier, 69 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: and he shows us that we cannot make formulas that 70 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: will help us predict and understand serial killers, because there 71 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 2: will always be somebody who just doesn't fit, and we 72 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: have to be very careful about how we try to 73 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 2: box these things up. Serial killer is simply a description 74 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: of behavior. You've killed at least two people in two 75 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: different incidents. It's not a criminal type, so we have 76 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: to beware that we're not trying to formulate it so 77 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: that we feel safe. And I think Dennis Rata is 78 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: a very good example of somebody who had a perfectly 79 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: ordinary at childhood, no abuse. 80 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 3: Might have had some head injury. 81 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: We haven't been able to document that, but he had 82 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 2: like it was in a car accident, his mother dropped 83 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: him on his head when he was a kid. But 84 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 2: he doesn't really show most of the impulsivity and other 85 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: kinds of behaviors you expect from head injuries. He became 86 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 2: a serial killer through a very active and very strong 87 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: and intense fantasy life. 88 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: So earlier you called reader a psychopath, But would he 89 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: have been diagnosed with something like antisocial personality disorder as 90 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 1: a child, even if someone suspected something was wrong. 91 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: We don't put the label's psychopath on someone below the 92 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 2: age of eighteen, so that's the first thing. However, we 93 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 2: can see psychopathic tendencies in children as young as three, 94 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: so we talk about them as being fledgling psychopaths or 95 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: children at risk for psychopathy. We do have programs for 96 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: males who are at risk of psychopathy. Not a lot 97 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: of them, but there are some. There's one in Wisconsin 98 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: at the Mendo To Juvenile Center, and there have been success, 99 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: meaning they're identifying and usually it's in their teenage years 100 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 2: or just before teenagers. They're identifying young men at risk 101 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: for becoming adult psychopaths, working with them in terms of 102 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: their thought processes and behavioral accountability, and they're finding success 103 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 2: with that. When they're released, the rate of them repeating 104 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 2: any offense they might have committed to get in there 105 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: is lower than those same population being released and not. 106 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: Going through the program. Okay, so what does all that mean? 107 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: So that tells us perhaps when we catch them at 108 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: a young age and can identify those at risk for 109 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 2: developing into adult psychopaths, that girls are just as amenable 110 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 2: to this treatment as boys. So in that case, identifying 111 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 2: them at a young age, whether female or male, is important. 112 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: But nobody recognized that with Raid or right. And so 113 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: he proceeded with his life. He got married and then 114 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: something really changed with him. 115 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 2: He got angry one day because he'd been laid off 116 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: from a job he really liked. His wife was now 117 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 2: the breadwinner, which he could you know, there again, we 118 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: had women in charge of his life, which he couldn't stand. 119 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 3: Uh oh. 120 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: And he broke into a house and he really liked 121 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: the feeling of being in control of somebody's house. Nobody 122 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: was in there, but he just liked that. Began to 123 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 2: fantasize about kidnapping young women and putting them in what 124 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: he called girl traps and making them do what he 125 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: wanted to do. 126 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: So it started with fantasies when he was young, and 127 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: now as an adult, these fantasies began to escalate. 128 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: And then he just one day decided he saw a 129 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 2: woman and her daughter, Julia Otero and her daughter walking, 130 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: and he just followed them to where they lived, and 131 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: his fantasies began to be more like, I'm going to 132 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: do this, I'm going to do this. That was nineteen 133 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: seventy four, in which tak Kansas and it was January fifteenth. 134 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: His wife went to work and he got up and 135 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: he went to the Ota house and he broke in 136 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: and he murdered poor people. 137 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: Doesn't that seem like a big jump to you to 138 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: sort of being someone who is, you know, living in 139 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: a fantasy world. But then the killing four people, including 140 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: a man, right. 141 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, But he didn't expect the man was home. 142 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: So what happened? So he shows up in the house. 143 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: He shows up in the house. He's actually didn't he's 144 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: in the backyard. 145 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 3: He sees that they have a dog and didn't realize it. 146 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: He's in the backyard and he's not so sure that 147 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: he's going to go in, but the little boy came 148 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: out to call for the dog and it was over. 149 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 3: He knew he had to go in. The boy had 150 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: seen him. 151 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: Once he was in the house, he realized he's now 152 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: got a father, mother, and two kids. He's got to 153 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: deal with all of them because they're witnesses. And it 154 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 2: really wasn't well planned. He did not expect Joseph Otero 155 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: Senior to be there, but he had been in a 156 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: car accident and so he was home recovering. So this 157 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 2: was just not something that it's not a jump for. 158 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: This is a guy who wanted to be a serial killer, 159 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 2: and so he goes and kills four people. It wasn't 160 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: that he thought he was going to maybe encounter the 161 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: two kids that he knew he could get rid of 162 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: the little boy quickly. 163 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 3: That's cold, but that was in his mind. 164 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: Then he's going to abduct the mother and daughter and 165 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: take them to a barn because Barnes figured big in 166 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 2: his fantasies, and none of it worked out the way 167 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: he wanted it to work out. So he just tied 168 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: them up and strangled them. 169 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 3: How was he able? 170 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: I mean, this is not, from what I've seen, not 171 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: a big guy necessarily. I mean, how was he able 172 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: to overcome four people? I mean, I can't even deal 173 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: with my twin daughters at the same time. 174 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: How do you wrangle four people? 175 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 2: He had a gun and he made them believe And 176 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 2: here's the psychopathic part. He had this idea that if 177 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: you make people feel safe and like nothing bad will happen, 178 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 2: they relax their guard and so he pretended to be 179 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 2: a fugitive. 180 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 3: Ah, all I need is your car. I just need 181 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 3: some money. 182 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 2: I'm not going to hurt you if you do what 183 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: I say, but I'm going to have to tie you up. 184 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: And once he has them under control, He's not the 185 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 2: only one there's There are quite a few people manage 186 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: this all by themselves. You make people scared enough and 187 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 2: believe that as long as they obey you, it's all 188 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: going to be okay. That's what they want to believe, 189 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: and that's what psychopaths to take advantage of. And once 190 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: he had them all tied up, there's nothing they could 191 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: have done. 192 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 3: Did he kill the dog? I know that's a weird question. 193 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 3: Did not kill the dog? He liked dogs? 194 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: Okay, Just to make it clear, you've spent time with 195 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: Dennis Raider. 196 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 2: Yes, it was interesting because it actually started with someone 197 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 2: else who had approached Rader when he was and he 198 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 2: got away with this for thirty years. He wasn't arrested 199 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: till two thousand and five, after he had killed ten people. 200 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: And once he was arrested, another person wanted to write 201 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: a book with him, have him tell his story, and 202 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 2: she wrote him for five years but didn't produce a book. 203 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 2: And I saw her on Facebook and I asked her, 204 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: whatever happened to your book? Because there was you know, 205 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: there were newspaper articles about her, and she begged me 206 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: to take it over. She didn't want to do it 207 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: and she wanted someone else to do it. So so 208 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: then I had to go through a certain process with 209 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 2: the victim's family's attorney before they approved what I wanted 210 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: to do. But the fact that I wanted to write 211 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: a book that would benefit criminal justice and law enforcement, 212 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 2: they appreciated that. 213 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: So you made it clear to them that you wouldn't 214 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: be exploiting the victims or glorifying him. 215 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 2: They knew I could write a book, but because I've 216 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 2: written quite a few, and that I certainly was a 217 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: serial killer expert as well as an academic with credentials, 218 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 2: so that gave it a seriousness that it wasn't going 219 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 2: to be tabloid. So all of that happened, And during 220 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: that time, Raider and I played chess games in the 221 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: mail so that we, you know, kind of figure out 222 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: where we're going to go with this. And I was 223 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: able to take the five years of correspondence between him 224 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: and the other person to get a start. And I 225 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: didn't expect going to take me five years to do this. 226 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: A lot of it had to do with all the 227 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 2: back and forth with all the legal stuff. 228 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 3: But during that time. 229 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: I visited him and then we began weekly phone calls, 230 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: and then he started writing very long letters, detailed, I 231 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: mean like twenty page letters. So between all of that, 232 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 2: and also I was friends with the DA who had prosecuted, 233 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 2: so she gave me access to her files. I knew 234 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: some of the police officers involved. I talked to some 235 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: of the victims' families. 236 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 3: So between with all. 237 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: Of that, I had a lot of material to work with. 238 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: But primarily his letters, I would say were the best. 239 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: The worst was actually visiting him because the guards would 240 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 2: hang out and listen, and we had to really he 241 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 2: wanted to do this all in code. 242 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 3: So that was a challenge. Why in code. He wanted 243 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 3: to do it. 244 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: In code for practical reason he didn't want the guards 245 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: to see what he was sending out, but also because 246 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: he fancied himself a spy, so he liked the idea 247 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: and it was a test to me, would I play? 248 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: And you did for five years I played, and I 249 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: made the code that we eventually use, because you kept 250 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: forgetting his so interestingly, here I am a female in charge, 251 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 2: which is what he didn't like. 252 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 3: And yet we worked together very well. 253 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: Actually, So after those murders, what happens. He's gotten away 254 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: with it, even though it was messy, right, so where 255 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: where is he? 256 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 3: In his mind? At that point he thought he would 257 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 3: get caught. He was pretty scared. 258 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: He did not get caught, so he felt empowered, and 259 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 2: within three months he had murdered the next person. But 260 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: this time he was more careful, except that he still 261 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: made mistakes like picking the wrong victim and. 262 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 3: It was a young woman. 263 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 2: He thought he had identified somebody who didn't have dogs 264 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: or people in her life or men, but she had 265 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 2: other who showed up with it when he had. And 266 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 2: what he liked to do is put himself inside a 267 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: house and you know, be the boogeyman jumping out of 268 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 2: the closet or you know, startling you because you're completely 269 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: off guard. You think your house is safe, you walk in. 270 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 2: Here's man, it's not like somebody breaking in your house 271 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: when you're in there, because you can call the police, 272 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: you can get a gun, you can. This is about 273 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: him taking you completely off guard. 274 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,359 Speaker 3: You have no resources. 275 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: Is this fear for him? Is that the real drive. 276 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it's sex necessarily. Well, the two 277 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: are together, definitely. The fear is erotic to him. Making 278 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: people afraid and feeling dominant over females is erotic to him. 279 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: He did not have sex with the victims, so what happened, 280 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: but he had a highly erotic experience when he was 281 00:14:54,080 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 2: strangling someone. He tried different methods and decided he liked 282 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: with strangling people. He liked posing bodies. I mean, it 283 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: was just the idea of handling these these female bodies 284 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: and having complete control over them. It's very similar to 285 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: what Bundy said when once he got caught. Dahmer said 286 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: about men they liked control. 287 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: Because he lacked control he felt in his life. But 288 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: he didn't lack control. I mean, he was the primary 289 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: bread winner. His wife had a job, but he was 290 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: a primary bread winner. He had kids, He was at 291 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: the time the vice president of his church congregation, and 292 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: then became, you know, the president. 293 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 3: That's when he got caught. 294 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: How was Dennis Raider able to juggle all of those 295 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: different roles that he played in his life. 296 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: So if for now family man is working, that's what 297 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: they're going to present to you. But they can quickly 298 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: change to a different side if the opportunity arises that 299 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: they considered to be in their self interest. They're not 300 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: rooted identity the way most of us are. So it's 301 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: hard for us to understand this because most of us 302 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: who see ourselves in a certain way and want to 303 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: think there's consistency in our presentation to people, and there's 304 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: integrity and the things that we say that if I 305 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: said this, I mean this, and you're going to see 306 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: me say the same thing tomorrow. That's not in there 307 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 2: thinking at all. They don't really care if they're telling 308 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: the truth or not. What they care but is to 309 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 2: get what they're out for, and so they can pivot 310 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: to the very next thing so fast, and you cannot 311 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: say and even if you have it on record, you 312 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: can be recording what they say. They're not even going 313 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 2: to acknowledge it because they know it doesn't matter. 314 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 3: If you tell them you just lied. I have you 315 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: on tape. You lied. 316 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 2: So they'll shrug it off and walk away and maybe 317 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: they can manipulate you. If they can't, they'll go into 318 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: the next person. But they'll take from you everything that 319 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: they possibly can. They're vampires. If you let them in 320 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: they will take what they can and then they move 321 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: on after they've tapped you out to the next person. 322 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 2: They don't have to be criminals to do that. They 323 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: can take all kinds of things from you emotionally, you know, 324 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 2: financially you know, let's share a bank account. Now your 325 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 2: money's mine. There's so many things they can do that 326 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 2: don't rise to the level of criminality. Because they're watching 327 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 2: you as predators, you are not going to have the 328 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 2: same tools to deal with them as they have to 329 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: deal with you. So back to the question, how can 330 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 2: we spot them? I think you can spot the low 331 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 2: functioning ones fairly easily because they make mistakes. That's why 332 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: they're get in prisons, why they get caught. 333 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 3: They're not that bright. 334 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: You can spot their inconsistencies fairly quickly, and sometimes they 335 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: give off a vibe you just think, oh, you know, 336 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: I don't want to be around this person. But the 337 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: high functioning ones think you have a very hard time 338 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 2: spotting them until you're already in their web. You're already 339 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: friends with them, or you're already in a relationship or 340 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 2: possibly married, or living in the same house, or they're 341 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 2: your roommate. You're already in something with them, and they've 342 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 2: already figured you out before you had a chance to 343 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: do them. 344 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: Okay, so obviously he was a good manipulator. Did he 345 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: ever lose control at any point? He didn't lack control it. 346 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: There were times he lost jobs and whatnot. But you know, 347 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: his final job was a compliance officer. He would go 348 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: in and before that he was installing security systems. 349 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 3: I mean, that's not really a loss of control. 350 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 2: He had achieved a college degree, so not really lost 351 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: of control there for him. 352 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to nineteen seventy four to the 353 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: break in where Raider thinks the woman will be alone 354 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: and she brings her brother. 355 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 3: Home, Catherine Bright. 356 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: That happened about three months after the otaros, and he 357 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 2: thought he had scoped it all out, and turns out 358 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 2: he hadn't, and unexpectedly she brought she came home and 359 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: her brother was with her, and there was a scuffle 360 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 2: and Raider thought he was going to die because Kevin 361 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: Bright grabbed his gun and he really thought it was 362 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: over for him. But and he shot Kevin twice, thinking 363 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 2: he was going to die, but Kevin ran and that 364 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 2: ruined the whole thing for Rader because now he had 365 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 2: to hurry, and this is always what's in his mind. 366 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: He says things like, I'm unlucky because something always interfered 367 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: with everything I wanted to do, you know, bad weather conditions, 368 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: or you know somebody was coming. They expected a phone call, 369 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 2: so I never got a good shot at all. 370 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: That I fantasized about, very poor me. 371 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: It was just very simp psychopaths. Psychopaths are all about 372 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: I'm the victim. They blame others, they feel. 373 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 3: They whine, the whining psychopaths, the whining psychopath. 374 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: I'm talking with doctor Catherine Ramsland, who spent five years 375 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: interviewing serial killer Dennis Rader. She mentioned this checklist, so 376 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: we're going to pause for a minute and I'll explain 377 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: a little bit more about it. It's the criteria that 378 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: experts use to diagnose a patient with psychopathy. It's called 379 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: the Hair Checklist, created decades ago by researcher Robert Hare. 380 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: It's basically a twenty items symptom rating scale that includes 381 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: pathological lying, lack of remorse, lack of empathy, parasitic lifestyle, 382 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: sexual promiscuity, impulsivity, just to name a few. But whining 383 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: didn't make the list, and doctor Ramsland thinks that should have. 384 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: I once asked Robert Hair why did he not add 385 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 2: that to the psychopathy checklist, because to my mind, that's 386 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 2: the number one thing is they're always whining about their circumstances. 387 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 3: Because it's all about them. 388 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 2: It's all about them, but they don't even see that 389 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: they put themselves in these circumstances. And I think he 390 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 2: said something like, well, when I had twenty two items 391 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 2: rather than twenty in the revised version, that was one 392 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 2: of them. Well, you shouldn't have taken that one off. 393 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 3: That's what I see. 394 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: No matter what I mean, every single identified psychopath who 395 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 2: is some kind of public figure, so usually they're criminals, 396 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 2: whines about their situation and it's so hard to have 397 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: any empathy for them because they have so little insight 398 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 2: about how they got in these situations and that they 399 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: wouldn't have been in these situations if they hadn't committed 400 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 2: these crimes. I had done these horrible things to other people, 401 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 2: but they minimize it. Raid will even say he's a 402 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: good person who did some bad things and he's not 403 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: the only one. Bundy said it, Dahmer said it. They 404 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: do see that since my murders are a small part 405 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: of my life, you know, in terms of how much 406 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: time I spent on everything else. Then you can't really 407 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: say I'm a bad person because I do all these 408 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: other things, like I help my neighbors, I'm a good. 409 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 3: Father, you know. 410 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: So what he's giving himself permission to do all these things. 411 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 2: They really can't see that the decisions they made to 412 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: harm others and to not have any feeling for the 413 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: harm they've done, not just to those people, but all 414 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 2: the reverberations into their families as well. But uppermost in 415 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: their minds is you know, all about me, all about me, 416 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 2: and if it didn't work out, I was unlucky where 417 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 2: something was unfair. I mean there was a time when 418 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 2: Raider's daughter gave an interview to the newspapers about ten 419 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 2: years This is ten years after he was arrested, and she, 420 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: you know, talks in a very emotional way about how 421 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: horrible this was for her and her family, and you know, 422 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: they're victims too, and he just doesn't seem to understand 423 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: how he harmed us. And Raider saw the interview and 424 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: what he said to me was, do you see I 425 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 2: got my name in the paper? 426 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 3: O God? 427 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: And that's the way he was all the time. He 428 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: never had any sense of the people he harmed. His 429 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 2: victims belonged to him, and if he didn't have enough 430 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 2: time to do something that he wanted to do to them, 431 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 2: it was bad luck. And you know something went against him. 432 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 2: And whining. 433 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: It's Whining the serial Killer. 434 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: For my first book, Death in the Air, John Reginald 435 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: Christi used to keep photos of himself in his prison cell, 436 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: and he once pointed to his penis and told the 437 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: prison guard, this is the reason why everybody's here. I mean, 438 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: I just thought, how incredible this man has never gotten 439 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: attention at all. He just sort of always blended into 440 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: the wallpaper. And that's what I've always thought about Dennis Raider. 441 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: Just somebody who's never gotten attention, and now he's getting 442 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: all at once everything that he's wanted, and how pathetic 443 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 1: that is. 444 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 3: Well, But it isn't that he never got attention. 445 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 2: He was a person in his church, he had some standing, 446 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: some authority. He was a compliance officer, and people had 447 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 2: to obey him when he told them their grass is 448 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: too long, or their dog was running around or something. 449 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 3: So isn't that he got none. 450 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 2: He just didn't get enough in his mind, it's all 451 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 2: about their perception, and their perception is filtered through. 452 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 3: Poor me, poor me, the wine. It's always filtered through that. 453 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 2: And the same thing with Eileen Warners. You know, clearly 454 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 2: psychopathic female. 455 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 3: Wow? 456 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: Is that ever a poor me, poor me? And yet 457 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 2: of course she did have some problems, but boy did 458 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: she victimize people, and not just the men she murdered. 459 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 2: I mean she got married to this older, really older guy, 460 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 2: a lot older than her, and then just spend his money, 461 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: and did you know she just didn't care. She didn't 462 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: care about except for herself. Okay, but how do we 463 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: even know how to categorize somebody like that? Well, the 464 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 2: difficulty with categorizing a female psychopath is that we haven't 465 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 2: done that much research on them, and the tools we've 466 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: used have were developed for male psychopaths with the mistaken 467 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 2: idea that anything that comes out of research with males 468 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: will apply equally to females, and we're finding that that 469 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: is probably not true. So now we have to rethink 470 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 2: the idea of how a female psychopath might operate. And 471 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 2: it turns out that a lot of women who are 472 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: diagnosed with borderline personality disorder might in fact be psychopaths, 473 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 2: but we've tended to think of them borderline as being 474 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 2: a female disorder, and we tend not to think of 475 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: females being psychopath And I think this has a lot 476 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: to do with many of the theories were developed by 477 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 2: males who really did not want to think about women 478 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 2: being psychopathic because that's very uncomfortable. The idea of mothers 479 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 2: being psychopaths, wives being psychopaths is very uncomfortable, and I've 480 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 2: certainly met police officers and attorneys and psychologists even who 481 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: really don't want to think that women can be that bad. 482 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 2: We still have people who don't want to go the 483 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 2: distance with this and really believe that this is it 484 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: could be. I think when they made the movie of 485 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: Eileen Warno's, for example, she does definitely come up as 486 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 2: a psychopath on the psychopathy checklist. However, when they made 487 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: the movie, they gave her all kinds of excuses, so 488 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: they bent the facts. They made her girlfriend look small, 489 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: and she wasn't small out of work, but she had 490 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 2: a job, so they made it look like the reason 491 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 2: Eileen Warnas was so violent was because of all the 492 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: things that happened to her and the fact that she 493 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: had to take care of her girlfriend, and they gave 494 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: her every out. I thought it was unfair, first of all, 495 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: to women to believe that they are in some way 496 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 2: can't rise to, you know, some kind of criminality that 497 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 2: males can rise to. 498 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 3: I think they absolutely can and have. 499 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 2: But when I saw that movie, it was clear to 500 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: me people just don't want to accept that a woman 501 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: can be just a coal hearted, remorseless, angry killer. And 502 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: she even said that about herself. She said, if you 503 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: let me out, I'll do it again. 504 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: And it sounds like Dennis Rader was exactly the same way. 505 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 2: Let me just say from his success with killing people, 506 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: he began the thing about every potential serial killer is this, 507 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 2: at least those who fantasize about it, when they do it, 508 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: when they actually murder, that is a turning point one 509 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 2: way or the other. Either it's wow, this isn't all 510 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 2: it is cracked up to be. I don't want to 511 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: do this again. Now I have a body and it's icky, 512 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 2: and I don't want to do it. Wasn't anything like 513 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 2: my fantasy, and I don't want to do it. And 514 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 2: they then do not become serial killers if they like it, 515 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: and it is all it's cracked up to be or more. 516 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: They're set now for I need to do this again, 517 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 2: and with Raider doing it again. And it did take 518 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: some time, because there was three months between the first 519 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 2: and second, but then almost three years before the next 520 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 2: one because he became a father and he was busy 521 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: and he did stuff. But in his mind, he's always thinking, 522 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 2: this is the heat, this is what matters. 523 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 3: This is who I really am. 524 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 2: No matter what I'm doing on the side with my 525 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 2: social contracts, what I am is a killer and I 526 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 2: want to be acknowledged for that someday somehow. So he's 527 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,959 Speaker 2: always looking for potential victims, and the circumstances weren't always 528 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 2: correct for him to act out, but he was always stalking, 529 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 2: peeping in windows, watching for opportunities. So when people say 530 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 2: something about Raider, and commonly there's an idea that Rader stopped, 531 00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 2: that is not what he says. 532 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 3: I failed. 533 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: And so that's what's more interesting about him is that 534 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: he wasn't always outlooked like Bundy was out of control. Finally, 535 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: toward the end, it just I just got to kill 536 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 2: dom or two. I mean, he just accelerated what he 537 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 2: was doing, but Raider could keep control over it, but 538 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: he was always his real sensitively was that the heat 539 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: of it, the beating heart of his identity was that 540 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 2: he was a serial killer and he wanted to be 541 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 2: a famous one. There have been metaphors to try to 542 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 2: characterize this sense of when a psychopath has a goal. 543 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 2: You know, they're like on a speeding train. They don't 544 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: think about negative consequences. They're just completely bent down the 545 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 2: reward no matter what. So a high functioning psychopath is 546 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 2: going to be a little more clever, whether they're IQ 547 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 2: smart or street smart or whatever it will be. They're 548 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: going to realize, I don't want to end up in prison. 549 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 2: So even though I want that thing and it's against 550 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: the law, I don't want to end up in prison. 551 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 2: So I'm going to find a way to get it 552 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: that is within legal realms. So I think high functioning 553 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 2: is going to just be more creative. 554 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 3: He wanted to be a Jack the Ripper. 555 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: Reaching out to the media, reaching out to the media, 556 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: playing the games he was playing, and. 557 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: Believing that if he left something behind after he died, 558 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 2: somebody would open a safety depositive box or something and 559 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: go WHOA. It was Dennis Raider, and he took great 560 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: satisfaction in getting away with it, but everybody knowing he 561 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: got away with it. So that was an interesting aspect 562 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 2: of him that I saw constantly coming forward in our 563 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: discussions and the things that he said is he wanted 564 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 2: that fame, but he didn't ever want to really think 565 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 2: about emotional or moral consequences. 566 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: Was there anything that surprised you about him or was 567 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: that what you just said would surprise you. 568 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: Nothing surprised me, because I mean, I've studied serial killers 569 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 2: lots and lots of them way before him, so, but 570 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: he's an outlier and that interested me. It didn't surprise 571 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: me because I have never been one who likes psychological formulas. 572 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 2: I think people are more diverse and more interesting and 573 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: complicated than most of the formulas allowed them to be. 574 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 2: So for me, that was intriguing to find someone like 575 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 2: him that demonstrates that, and I think he's a good 576 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: lesson for us. 577 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: So let's pause for a moment to catch up. After 578 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: Kathy Bright, Dennis Rader killed five more people in nineteen 579 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: seventy seven. He killed two women, and at this point 580 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: he became irritated by the lack of media coverage, so 581 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: he wrote a letter to a local TV station in 582 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: Wichita and said, how many people do I have to 583 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: kill before I get a name in the paper or 584 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,239 Speaker 1: some national attention than nothing that we know of. He 585 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: waited eight more years before killing his neighbor in nineteen 586 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: eighty five, and the next year he murdered another woman. 587 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: Then his final victim was Delores Davis in nineteen ninety one, 588 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: when he strangled the sixty one year old in her home. 589 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: He didn't get caught till two thousand and five. He 590 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 2: went on to lead a normal life, although he was 591 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 2: always watching for opportunities, and he had planned another one 592 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: that didn't come off, and he was about ready to 593 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: retry it when he was caught. And he was caught 594 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 2: by something stupid, playing this cat and mouse game with police. 595 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 3: What kind of capt'n mouse game. 596 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: What he used to do is he'd send them these 597 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 2: things he was writing, these chapters of his story, and 598 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: he'd go copy them and take the copies and copy 599 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: them in a different copier until he had several generations 600 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 2: of copies so that it couldn't be traced to a copier. 601 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 2: And he got tired of that and also didn't have 602 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 2: the same kind of time he used to have because 603 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: he had to report back to his wife, so he asked, 604 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 2: could I use a floppy disk instead? He took one 605 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 2: that he'd used to take notes for church. Had he 606 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 2: used a brand new one, it wouldn't have been I 607 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 2: think as easy for them to catch him as they did. 608 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 3: But he didn't. 609 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 2: He used us has name on it, and it was 610 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 2: traced back to the church where he had used the computer, 611 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 2: and is the minister he worked with knew that, and 612 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 2: they got. 613 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 3: A stupid mistake, stupid. 614 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 2: Mistake, and to this day he knows it was stupid 615 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 2: and he kicks himself for it. 616 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: So Dennis Raider is the guy who craves attention, but 617 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: someone you would never expect to be a psychopath, right, 618 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: someone who ultimately kills ten people. He just didn't present 619 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 1: as one, is what you're saying. So these guys kind 620 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: of sneak up on us. 621 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: Just about every psychopathy researcher who spends day in and 622 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: day out in this topic will admit they can be 623 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 2: duped by a psychopath. So it would be it's not 624 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 2: really very smart to try to think you've got you 625 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 2: know all the red flags, you know what they are. 626 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: You're always going to be safe from psychopaths because you're 627 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 2: always going to know because you're not. I mean, they're 628 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: very good at, you know, figuring out how to leverage you. 629 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: I wrote this one article, the six things psychopaths know 630 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 2: about you that makes you unsafe, and it. 631 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 3: Uses common human tendencies. 632 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 2: For example, if you're in a new place and you're 633 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 2: a little uncertain and they're watching you, they can see 634 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 2: you're uncertain. They know you're going to respond to a 635 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,959 Speaker 2: kind person offering you directions or maybe even hey, hey, 636 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 2: you need a place to stay. 637 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 3: Come to my house. 638 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 2: People do this, They trust somebody who extends a kind 639 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 2: hand or a Psychopaths know that you are going to 640 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: tend to appreciate somebody who's very confident, who seems to 641 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 2: know what they're doing, who has credentials. Well, psychopath one 642 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 2: hesitate to lie about how confident they are or their 643 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 2: credentials because they don't they don't have any sense of truth. 644 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 2: They have no commitment to truth. They have commitment only 645 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 2: to themselves. So without a commitment to truth, you're not 646 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 2: going to spot that that sort of hesitation of oh 647 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 2: I'm lying, should I be lying? That you can see 648 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 2: in people who might have some degree of remorse. So 649 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 2: to think that you're going to spot them first, you're wrong. 650 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 3: They're the predators. 651 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 2: They've been watching you, and they know the kinds of 652 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 2: things you, as an ordinary human being, tend to do 653 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 2: and what you respond to, and they're going to use 654 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 2: that against you in every way that they can before 655 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 2: you even think about could this person be a psychopath, 656 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 2: They're going to circumvent that. If they're if they're clever, 657 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: they're going to circumvent that before you even have a 658 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 2: chance to evaluate them. 659 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 3: And then they're gone. 660 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 661 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 4: There's a soft knock at the door and she's like, well, 662 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:17,879 Speaker 4: I can't keep him out. I mean he can crash 663 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 4: the door down. I got it, So she opens it. 664 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 4: He says, I'm sorry, I think you have my T shirt. 665 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 4: So he takes his T shirt and turns to leave. 666 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 4: Before he leaves, he says, you don't know me. I 667 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 4: live on the other side of town and leaves. 668 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 669 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 670 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more media production. Alexis and 671 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer Andrew Evan is our sound designer. 672 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does 673 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Bring 674 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: design the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen 675 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and 676 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. 677 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, 678 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads, and if you 679 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use 680 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email 681 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe and 682 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever 683 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,439 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.