1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: We've been covering the indictment of Donald Trump in the 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: past couple of episodes. Today we're going to dig in, 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: just get into great detail about the thirty four accounts 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: he's facing, the case that Alvin Bragg is trying to 5 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: make against him, and if he will be successful. We'll 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 1: also get into what options Donald Trump has in front 7 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: of him before his December hearing that he's facing. We're 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: going to get into all of it with Annie McCarthy. 9 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: He's a Fox News contributor a contributing editor at The 10 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: National Review. He's also a former Chief Assistant United States 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: Attorney and the Southern District of New York, so he 12 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: understands the New York court system. So stay tuned for 13 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: this episode with Annie McCarthy. So, Annie McCarthy, I'm so 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: glad to have you on the show. I've just obviously 15 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: I'm familiar with your work work colleagues at Fox, but 16 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: just in watching you on TV and reading everything you've written, 17 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: you just do such a good job just thoroughly breaking 18 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: this down. I'm so thankful for you to take in 19 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: the time to join the show. Well, thanks so much, Lisa, 20 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: It's great to be here, you know, so Andy. Obviously 21 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: a wild time in American history. This is clearly unprecedented. 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 1: So thirty four felon accounts. Can you take us through 23 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: in detail what exactly Alvin Bragg is accusing Donald Trump 24 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: of doing. Well, the basic crime in terms of what 25 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: the legal counts are, is very different, Lisa, from the story. 26 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: So why don't Why don't I start with what the 27 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: crimes are and then I can get to why the 28 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: story is incoherent? That'd be great. So the crimes are 29 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: what in New York is generally the misdemeanor of falsifying 30 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: business records and to commit that crime, which is you 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: would get less than a year from in jail, even 32 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: on the books. But in New York, Alvin Bragg basically 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: doesn't prosecute anything. So this is the kind of case 34 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: that wouldn't need to be brought against somebody normally. But 35 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: what you would have to prove is that somebody made 36 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: false entries in their business records and they It's not 37 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: enough to show that the entries of false. You have 38 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: to show that the person did it with fraudulent intent, 39 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: which usually means that you're trying to swindle someone, right, 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: You're trying to take money or property. The state argues 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: for a kind of a more broad based definition than that, 42 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: but for now, that's that's pretty much what falsifying business 43 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: records means. Now in New York, falsifying business records only 44 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: has a two year statute of limitations. And the course 45 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: of behavior that we're talking about happened in twenty seventeen, 46 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: So ordinarily, if that's what you charge, he'd be out 47 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: of luck now because that would have been time barred 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: by probably by twenty nineteen, no later than twenty twenty. 49 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: But what Bragg is trying to do, and the reason 50 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: he had to go to a grand jury is juice 51 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: up into a felony from a misdemeanor. The reason I 52 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: say that's why he went to the grand jury. In 53 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 1: the United States, the Fifth Amendment guarantees you the right 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: to be indicted by a grand jury, which means the 55 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: community has to make sure that the government has enough 56 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: evidence before the case can proceed to trial. So what 57 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: a grand jury is supposed to do is find probable 58 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: cause that the government has a case, and then you 59 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: move on to the indictment stage. But under the Fifth Amendment, 60 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: you only get an indictment right for a felony. For 61 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: a misdemeanor, the prosecutor can charge himself by what's known 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: as an information. So here the reason Bragg was in 63 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: the grand jury as he wanted this to be a 64 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: felony case. And in New York, you can inflate the 65 00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: falsification of records from a misdemeanor into a felony if 66 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: you can show that by committing the misdemeanor, committing the 67 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: falsification of records, the defendant was trying to conceal another crime. 68 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: So what he alleges is that Trump was trying to 69 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: conceal another crime by making full centuries in the Trump 70 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: organization records, or at least causing false entries to be made. 71 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: So that's the thirty four counts are all basically that charge. 72 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: And the way he gets to thirty four is there 73 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: was a series of payments that Trump made to Michael Cohen. 74 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: Michael Cohen used to be Trump's lawyer. He's the one 75 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: who laid out the money for this hush money agreement, 76 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: which is known as a non disclosure agreement. He paid 77 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty thousand dollars to Stormy Daniels, the 78 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: porn star whose real name is Stephanie Clifford. And then 79 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: the arrange with Trump was to repay Cohen over the 80 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: months of twenty seventeen, so basically he got a monthly 81 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: check and to bring that about. What would happen is 82 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: Cohen would provide an invoice. Either Trump or the Trump 83 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: organization would write a check for him, and then an 84 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: entry went into the books. So even though this whole 85 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: thing is really one payback of a loan, it was 86 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: split into installments monthly. So Bragg basically broke it down 87 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: into those installments, but not content with that. He broke 88 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: down each installment to three separate acts, the invoice, the 89 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: writing of the check, and the book entry. So that's 90 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: how he gets up to thirty four. And we can 91 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: talk about that, but that's kind of a practice that 92 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 1: the Justice Department in federal cases tells prosecutors they shouldn't do. 93 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: I think when I tried the blind shake in nineties 94 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: for you know, terrorism and mass murder conspiracies and all 95 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: that stuff, I think I brought five counts. So this 96 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: is thirty four for the heavy duty crime undoubtedly of 97 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: falsifying business records. So anyway, those are the those are 98 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: the legal that's the legal counts, and I think it's 99 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: important Lisa to say counts, because those are allegations. I 100 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: have a hard time calling them crimes because I think 101 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: one of the big flaws in this indictment is that 102 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: he hasn't actually stayed at a crime, because that the 103 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: felony that we just discussed. You're supposed to show that 104 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: the person falsified the records to conceal another crime. Bragg 105 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: does not state in the indictment what the other crime 106 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: is that Trump supposedly was concealing. So right off the bat, 107 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: I think he's got a problem in not stating a crime, 108 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: because that's really the main function of a indictment is 109 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: to tell the defendant what he's accused of doing so 110 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: that he can prepare his defense. So I think, just 111 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 1: as a legal, technical, clinical matter, the indictment fails in 112 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: what the basic purpose of an indictment is. But let 113 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: me just say quickly the reason I say the story 114 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: is incoherent is Bragg's rationale for charging this case when 115 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: it's perfectly obvious that no one other than Donald Trump 116 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: would ever have been charged with this is that Bragg's 117 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: theory is Trump stole the twenty sixteen election by fraud, 118 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: namely by not disclosing these arrangements, these hush money deals, 119 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: and there are at least he lays out three of 120 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: them in the Statement of Facts that he filed along 121 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: with the indictment. But the thing about it is non 122 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: disclosure agreements are legal. In fact, there are a staple 123 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: in the civil justice system of how litigation gets closed 124 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: out and people make agreements. We frequently hear that, you know, 125 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: a lawsuit was dropped and the party settled and it 126 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: was an exchange of money and everybody agreed not to 127 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: talk about it anymore. That happens all the time. So 128 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: there's nothing illegal about non disclosure agreements. So, according to 129 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: brag Trump stole the twenty sixteen election by fraud. And 130 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: yet when you look at the indictment, the charges run 131 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: from February fourteenth, twenty seventeen, to December fifth, twenty seventeen, 132 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: so they start basically four months after the twenty sixteen 133 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: election was already over. It's inconceivable that you could commit 134 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: a fraud in twenty sixteen based on acts that you 135 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: don't carry out until months after the twenty sixteen event 136 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: is over. So the think it doesn't make any sense factual. 137 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: So why do you think he went with the twenty 138 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: seventeen date? What I had heard is I think the 139 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: transaction was in I believe October of twenty sixteen. So 140 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: why do you think he went with twenty seventeen? Do 141 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: you know the basis of that? Yeah, the same reason 142 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: that he only charged it gets when it got down 143 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: to counts. He only charged the Stormy Daniels nondisclosure agreement, 144 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: not the transactions attendant to the other two hush money 145 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: arrangements that they talk about in the statement of facts. 146 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: The reason is he needs Trump to be an active participant. 147 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: What happened in October of twenty sixteen is that Michael 148 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: Cohen paid the money to Stormy Daniels. What happened from 149 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: February to December of twenty seventeen is that Trump paid 150 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: Michael Cohen. So in order to get the counts against Trump, 151 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: he has to go to Trump's personal activity. So that's 152 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: the stuff that happened in twenty seventeen. So that makes sense. 153 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: So but even right there, in laying this out at 154 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: the beginning, I mean, there's already three glaring issues. I mean, 155 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: one he's already essentially being denied due process even in 156 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: the indictment itself, because it doesn't lay out what crime 157 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: he was pursuing in the pursuit of a felony, and 158 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: then secondly you have the statute of limitations concerns, and 159 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: then you know, thirdly, you have the timeline of it 160 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: just being acidinine that somehow he was defrauding an election 161 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: when the transactions are after the facts, you know right there. 162 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not an attorney, but you know, even 163 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: just from a common sense perspective, you know, that's all 164 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: a head scratcher. Also, you know, I would assume that 165 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 1: the crime that he's allegedly concealing, or if this is 166 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: having to do with the twenty sixteen election, those would 167 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: be you know, federal aspects. So what jurisdiction does a 168 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 1: local DA have to enforce federal law? Yeah, let me 169 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: answer that, And I want to come back to the 170 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: first point you made, because I think it's really important, 171 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: which is the process problem. The reason. You know, Bragg 172 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: is not an idiot. He's been a prosecutor for a 173 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: long time. I think he's not a very good prosecutor, 174 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: and he's been unethical way he brought this case. But 175 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: he's not stupid. There's a reason why he doesn't want 176 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: to say what the other crime is. He knows that 177 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: is problematic, that he hasn't that he hasn't done that. 178 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: And the reason, Lisa, is every other crime that he 179 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: wants to cite is a problem for him. And the 180 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: two main ones that he has sort of thrown out 181 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: there without committing himself are federal campaign finance violations and 182 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: state campaign finance violations. But he knows that on the 183 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: federal side, he doesn't have jurisdiction to enforce federal law, 184 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: and on the state side, he knows that the state 185 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: election laws apply only to state. Why you know, state 186 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: elections elections for the state office. And this is obviously 187 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: an election for the presidency. That if imagine how chaotic 188 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: it would be if every aid had their own election 189 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: laws that applied to federal elections, so that if you 190 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: stood for national office, you would have to comply, especially 191 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: for the presidency, with the fifty different sets of laws. 192 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: So clearly, when Congress comes in and has a set 193 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: of election laws that apply to federal elections, that preempts 194 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: the state laws. They can't apply their laws. And the 195 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: state by their own terms to state laws don't apply 196 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: to federal elections. So that's why Bragg doesn't want to 197 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: go there. And what he's relying on as an ambiguity 198 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: in the statute. What the the felony Falsification of Record 199 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: statute says is it's a felony if by falsifying the 200 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: records the person intended to commit or conceal and the 201 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: term is another crime. So the statute doesn't say another 202 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: New York state crime. But since we're dealing with the 203 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: New York State penal Code, the presumption has to be 204 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: that when it talks about another crime, it's talking about 205 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: another New York crime. There's no reason to think it 206 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: meant another federal crime, or that you can put federal 207 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: in there just because the state legislature did or it 208 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: did not, you know, cite to what authority the crime 209 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: they were talking about was. You have to assume it 210 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: was a New York crime, because otherwise, what's the limiting principle? 211 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: You know, is a crime against the law of France 212 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: good enough? You know, is a Shariah crime good enough? 213 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: So obviously what the New York legislature was talking about 214 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: was a New York crime, and Bragg knows that, and 215 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: that's the reason he doesn't want to state a federal crime. Also, 216 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: you know, he's got other problems with that. Number One, 217 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: I don't think these expenditures, whatever you think of them, 218 00:13:54,080 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: amount to a to in kind campaign contributions under federal law. 219 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 1: So he not only has to show that these were 220 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: if he had jurisdiction to enforce federal law, he would 221 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: not have to. He would not only have to show 222 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: that these were in kind federal campaign donations, he would 223 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: also have to show that Trump knew that, and that 224 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: he was intentionally trying to conceal that when the records 225 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: were falsified. And there's no reason to believe. I frankly 226 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,119 Speaker 1: don't think there's any reason to believe these were campaign 227 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: finance actions under federal law. The thought that Trump knew 228 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: they were is far fetched. And I would just point 229 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: out that in the last big campaign finance case that 230 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: drew a lot of attention to John Edwards case, which 231 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: involved a lot more money than this one, the Federal 232 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: Election Commission and the Department of Justice, the two components 233 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: of the federal government that actually do have jurisdic SHOA 234 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: campaign finance violations disagreed on whether these were in kind 235 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: payments or not. So the thought that Trump would know 236 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: what a campaign finance violation was when the two regulatory 237 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: arms of the federal government can't agree on it is 238 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: very far fetched. And that puts aside, you know, a 239 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: whole host of other problems such that, such as that 240 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: most campaign finance violations are handled by paying a fine 241 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: to the FEC. They don't criminalize them. People don't get 242 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: indicted for them. The Obama campaign had a two point 243 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: five I think it was million dollars violation in two 244 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: thousand and eight. You'll be shocked to learn, Lisa, that 245 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: the Obama Justice Department decided not to indict the Obama campaign. 246 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: Now that's shocking, Yeah, it is shocking. And they let 247 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: them get off with like a three hundred thousand dollars fine. 248 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: So that you know, Hillary Clinton's campaign got fined by 249 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: the FEC for mischaracterizing the way that they used to 250 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: steal dossier, right, They they categorized it as legal fees 251 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: and it was actually opposition research. So you know, they 252 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: don't criminalize this ordinarily. They're just you know, they're criminalizing 253 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: it for this guy, even though they don't actually have 254 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: a crime. So I think you're right to point out 255 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: that the big flaw in the indictment is the failure 256 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: to state what the crime is, and that if I 257 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: could that just it brings me back to your original 258 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: point about due process, because there's three real problems with 259 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: this that I don't see how Bragg can overcome. One 260 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: is just the obvious. The point of an indictment is 261 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: to put a person on notice of what the crime 262 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: is so he can prepare his defense. If you don't 263 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: tell the guy what he's accused of, he can't prepare 264 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: a defense. So the indictment fails even as an indictment. 265 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: It doesn't do the thing an indictment supposed to do. 266 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: The second point of an indictment in American constitutional law 267 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: is an indictment is supposed to be the way that 268 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: you plead double jeopardy if you ever get charged again 269 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: with the same crime. So, in other words, again the 270 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: indictment has to stay say what you're accused of. So 271 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: if another prosecutor down the road ever tried to do 272 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: that again, your indictment is your evidence that they can't 273 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: do that, because you've already been prosecuted for that crime. 274 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: But again, if the indictment doesn't state the crime, then 275 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: it can't perform that function as your double jeopardy defense either. 276 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,239 Speaker 1: And then I think the third thing, which should end 277 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: up being a pretty big issue I would think in 278 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: the pre trial motions is the prosecutor's function in the 279 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: grand jury is to be the legal advisor for the 280 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: grand jury when they make their finding when they vote 281 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: for the indictment. And what technically, what the grand jury 282 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: has to find when they indict is that every essential 283 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: element of a crime is supported by probable cause. Every crime, 284 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: whether it's a federal crime or a state crime, is 285 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: broken down into components which the law regards as or 286 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: calls essential elements. So for example, if I accused you 287 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: of armed bank robbery, the essential elements would be that, yeah, 288 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: you didn't do it. You're not guilty. See I didn't 289 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: do it. We're already we're already advancing the ball here, 290 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 1: just like the essential elements would be that you know 291 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: you entered and robbed the bank, you were armed, and 292 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: you intended to do it. In other words, it wasn't 293 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: an accident or a mistake. So that's the kind of 294 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: thing we're talking about when you say that somebody you have, 295 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: the government has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt 296 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: at trial, or the grand jury has to find probable 297 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: cause in order to indict. That's what we're talking about 298 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: on those essential elements. And the reason this is important 299 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: is Bragg. If the grand jury indictment is proper, Bragg 300 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: has to have given the grand jury legal instructions on 301 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: all of the elements they had to find in order 302 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: to find that there was probable cause to indict Trump. 303 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: So if he didn't put the crime the Trump was 304 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: supposedly concealing in the grand jury, I think the chances 305 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: are very high that he didn't instruct the grand jury 306 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: on what that crime was. And I don't see how 307 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: the grand jury could have properly indicted on that crime 308 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: unless Bragg told them what the crime was that Trump 309 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: was supposedly concealing. But it seems to me it would 310 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: be very peculiar if he went through that with the 311 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: grand jury, told the grand jury what the crime was, 312 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: and then didn't put it in the indictment. That would 313 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: be very strange. So I suspect that he probably violated 314 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: the law in the grand jury which will be an 315 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: issue in the pre trial motions. We're going to take 316 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: a quick commercial break more with Andy McCarthy. The Feds 317 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: decided not to pursue campaign finance charges regarding these payments. 318 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: Do you know why and does that mean anything for 319 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: this case that Trump's facing out of New York City? Yeah? So, 320 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: I think that the way the Southern District of New York, 321 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: which is my old office in the Federal Prosecutors in Manhattan, 322 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: they were trying to build a case against Trump, and 323 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: a lot has been made of the fact that they 324 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: got Michael Cohen to plead guilty to two charges of 325 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: campaign finance fraud in connection with these payments. One was 326 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: for Stormy Daniels, the other was for the other woman involved, 327 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: Karen McDougall, who Trump also is. Allegedly had a fling 328 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: with like in two thousand and six two thousand and seven, 329 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: and she was paid one hundred and fifty thousand dollars 330 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: at least in value. But the reason they haven't charged 331 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: that transaction is no money changed hands involving Trump and 332 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: the Trump people. Rather, what happened in that case was 333 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: she was paid one hundred and fifty thousand dollars by 334 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: Trump's friends at the National Enquirer for the exclusive rights 335 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: to her story, and Trump Cohen, and Cohen was supposed 336 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: to reimburse the National Choir and then Trump would have 337 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: reimbursed Cohen, except the National Inquirer decided it was the 338 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: better part of valor that they just eat that expense 339 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: and not take it from Cohen. So ultimately the only 340 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: value that changed hands was between the National Choir and McDougall. 341 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: So that's the reason Trump isn't charge with that. But 342 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: the federal prosecutors charged Cohen with that, and as a result, 343 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: you hear a lot of apologists for Bragg say that, 344 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: of course he's a campaign finance violations as to Trump, 345 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: because Cohen already played guilty to them. And what I 346 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: think people need to understand about that is Cohen played 347 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: guilty because the Southern District had him over a barrel. 348 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: They had a big fraud case on Cohen. He had 349 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: a bank fraud charge which in federal laws thirty year 350 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: count involving a multimillion dollars line of credit, and he 351 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: had five tax evasion charges that involved four million dollars 352 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: of undeclared income. So he was looking at a lot 353 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: of time in prison. He wasn't going to get anything 354 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: close to thirty years, but he might have gotten seven 355 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: or eight years in prison for this, And like most 356 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: defendants who are in that position, his only way out 357 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: was to cooperate with the government in making other cases, 358 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: because then under the federal sentencing guidelines, the prosecutors can 359 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: files what's a motion that's available under the guidelines, which 360 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: gives the court the authority to sentence the guide to 361 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: no time or much less time than the sentencing guidelines prescribe. 362 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: So Cohn's problem is that all of these fraud counts 363 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: that he was involved and don't implicate Trump at all. 364 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: This was his own business that he was involved in 365 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: in New York, and the Southern District wanted to build 366 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: a case against Trump. The only thing they had on 367 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,719 Speaker 1: Trump that involved Cohen were these two hush money arrangements, 368 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: so they got Cohen to plead guilty to those two counts. 369 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: I think the reason Cohen agreed to do it is 370 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: the fraud counts against him were so severe that the 371 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: campaign finance counts, which were comparatively from minor amounts of money, 372 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: did not add anything to his sentencing. Exposure. It didn't 373 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: change what his sentence would have been at all, So 374 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: all it was was adding two more counts onto a 375 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: laundry list of things he was already going to plead 376 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: guilty to. It didn't add any time, So from his perspective, 377 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: all it did was make him a more attractive witness 378 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: because he was willing to say that Trump was implicated 379 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: in these campaign finance violations. And from the Southern District standpoint, 380 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: it was a no lose proposition because they're trying to 381 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: build a case against Trump. When Cohane pleaded guilty, that 382 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: meant the case would never be tried, so the campaign 383 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: finance violations would never be challenged. And in pleading guilty, 384 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: you waive your right to appeal, so the Southern District 385 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: was never going to have to defend those charges on appeal, 386 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: So everybody wins right. And what they were trying to 387 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: do was build a case on Trump. You asked me, 388 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: why didn't they bring this case after all, if they 389 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: got Cohen to plead guilty to it wind up bringing 390 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: it against Trump. And the answer is because in the end, 391 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: they're not really inkind donations. And I think the Southern 392 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: District and the Justice Department understand understood that if somebody 393 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: actually challenged these in court, as you know, are they 394 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: as a matter of law in kind campaign donations, they 395 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: would have lost and it would have been humiliating. So 396 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: they decided if they were going to make a case 397 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: on a man who was then the President of the 398 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 1: United States. I think everybody should agree with this. If 399 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: you're going to bring a case like that, it should 400 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: be a very obvious, very serious, this crime that's backed 401 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: by very convincing evidence, and they knew they didn't have that, 402 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: so they didn't bring the case. And a lot of 403 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: people when I point that out, a lot of people say, well, 404 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: that was the Trump Justice Department. And what I would 405 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: say about that is, you know, number one, the Southern 406 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: District of New York is famously renegade when it comes 407 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: to political corruption cases. They've done a lot of them 408 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: in defiance of what the Justice Department wanted them to do. 409 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: But even if that weren't the case. I don't know 410 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: if this is late breaking news for people or not, 411 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: but as of January twentieth, twenty seventeen, twenty twenty one, 412 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: the Justice Department's been under new management. You know, the 413 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: Biden administration. You've noticed, so we noticed, Yeah, I know 414 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: it haven't we ever, but you know, I mean they've 415 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: had twenty seven months to bring a case if it 416 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: was there, and we also know, Lisa, Look, they're scorching 417 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: the earth. To me, it's not like they don't want 418 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: to make a case against Trump, right, They're going on them. 419 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: They're going after him on January sixth. They're going after 420 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: him and I think probably going to get him on 421 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: the documents case, which they've they're now sort of pitching 422 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: as a grand jury obstruction case rather than documents retention. 423 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: But we know they're trying very hard to make a 424 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: case against Trump. They didn't bring this one because legally 425 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,479 Speaker 1: it just doesn't add up. Also, the documents, though, seems 426 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: rather unfair because you know, my understanding is a president 427 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: ultimately has the authority and so it's sort of gray 428 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: area in terms of, you know, if he declassified or not. 429 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: And then it seems like every president has some sort 430 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: of back and forth in terms of turning over records 431 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: or is probably you know, guilty of this. Whereas you know, 432 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: Joe Biden in the Senate to take stake documents out 433 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: of a skiff is like you're like malice, like actual 434 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: malice to you know, to have done that as opposed 435 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: to you know, just accidentally bringing stuff with you. I'm 436 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: not the most organized person, so probably best for me 437 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:56,719 Speaker 1: not to be a president because I would totally do 438 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: that by accidents. So yeah, but I've never had classified auguments. 439 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: For the record, I also did not rob the bank. 440 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: So just to be clear in case anyone's listening, you know, 441 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: so covering committed any exactly, you just gotta laid out there, 442 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, better be safe than than sorry here in 443 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: this environment, um, you know, and so obviously you know 444 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: they're laying out the thirty four accounts to try to 445 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: stack the deck in the event that it makes it 446 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: easier to try to lay on one. So his next 447 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: in person hearing is in December? What options does Donald 448 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: Trump have in front of him before that date, Kenn, 449 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: he try to get this thrown out? What you know, 450 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: what is the appeals process? Like, what's next for team 451 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: Trump in this? You think that's a great question. I 452 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: think that I wouldn't fault them for not immediately moving 453 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: to dismiss the indictment, because unlike the way it worked 454 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: when I was a federal prosecutor back in the Stone Age. 455 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: They didn't get the indictment the lawyers until they were 456 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: in court on was a Tuesday afternoon, so you know, 457 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't until like two thirty Eastern time Tuesday afternoon 458 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: that they even saw this thing. So I don't think 459 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,959 Speaker 1: that they should be faulted for not having done anything 460 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: there and then. But now that they've had a chance 461 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: to digest it, I would go into court. They have 462 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: a motion schedule, I think for the moment that you know, 463 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: that court is very congested in cases move very slowly, 464 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: So what the judge did the other day was set 465 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: a motion schedule. The government's supposed to start making discovery 466 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: right away. Trump has until August to make pre trial motions, 467 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: including motions to dismiss the indictment. The state has about 468 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: I think six or eight weeks to respond to that, 469 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: and then the next time they're all supposed to be 470 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: in court again is December, which just seems eight months 471 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: from now. It just seems ridiculous. But if I were 472 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: Trump's lawyers, I would try to get under the judge's toes. Now, 473 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: I mean I would, now that you've had a chance 474 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: to read this thing. I would go in and simply argue, 475 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: you know, look, the indictment fails to state a crime, 476 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: so we shouldn't even be here because they have to 477 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: state a crime before you can start a criminal proceeding. 478 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: And I would also be arguing that he seems to 479 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: be trying to say that he can enforce federal campaign 480 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: finance law, and my hook to try to get the 481 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: judge to move on this and go quickly would be 482 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: a twofold argument. One would be, this is a state proceeding, 483 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: but it's got enormous consequence for national electoral politics, and 484 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be allowed to hang over the country if 485 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: there isn't a case here. You know, It's one thing 486 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: if Bragg stated a serious crime and it looked like 487 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: he could prove it, then you would just have to 488 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: go through with that. But here it doesn't look like 489 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: he has a crime at all, much less much evidence. 490 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: So I would try to push them on that end. 491 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: And then the other thing I'd say to them, Lisa, 492 00:29:53,600 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: is because he's purporting to be able to enforce federal 493 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: campaign finance law, although at least we think he is, 494 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: and the statutes of New York law do not allow 495 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: him to do that. I would signal to the judge 496 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 1: in New York that if they don't get satisfaction here, 497 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: they're going to go into federal court and say that 498 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: make an argument that the Manhattan District Attorney, who doesn't 499 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: have jurisdiction to enforce these criminal laws, is trying to 500 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: do that. And I think the reason you do that is, 501 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, you try to nudge this judge into taking action. 502 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: You know this thing he's got right now, he's got 503 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: it on the slow train, and I think you want 504 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: him to move on it. And judges, what tends to 505 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: get judges attention and get them to move faster is 506 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: the prospect of their work being checked by a different court. 507 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: So that's what I do. We're going to take a 508 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: quick commercial break, and then Andy's going to continue breaking 509 00:30:53,960 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: down the indictment against Donald Trump. This a judge specifically 510 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: has donated two Democrats in twenty including that of Joe Biden. 511 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: Now they're not big donations, but their donations nonetheless, does 512 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: that increase his probability if this judge denies him the 513 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: ability to try to throw this out, to take it 514 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: beyond that and saying, not only have I faced you know, 515 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: a corruption from the Manhattan DA, but also a bias 516 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: judge who, you know, one could argue maybe should even 517 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: recuse himself in this instance. He's already demonstrated a bias 518 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: against Trump in the donations that he's made. Yeah, at Lisa, 519 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: I think that the one motion that Joe Takapina, who 520 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: is one of Trump's lawyers, has talked about publicly already 521 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: is selective prosecution. And I think that they are going 522 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: to take the background facts about the judge that you 523 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: just laid out in conjunction with the fact that Bragg 524 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: brings this case against Trump which he wouldn't bring against 525 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: anyone else. As I've been saying all along, I think 526 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: we call Bragg the district attorney because that's his title, 527 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: but we really shouldn't look at him as a law 528 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: enforcement official. We should look at him as a progressive 529 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: Democrat who's been elected to office on a campaign to 530 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: go after this one guy. I mean, basically, Bragg's pitch 531 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,959 Speaker 1: to voters in New York was two things. One, if 532 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: you elect me, I won't enforce the law which his 533 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: progressive bases likes. And as a result, but he's more 534 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: famous for in New York is taking actual felonies and 535 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, degrading them to misdemeanors or not prosecuting them 536 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: at all. So it's very rich that here he's taken 537 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: something that's a trivial misdemeanor, if it's even that, and 538 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,719 Speaker 1: try to inflate it into a felony. But you know, 539 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: he campaigned on getting Trump, which is unseemly for a prosecutor, 540 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,959 Speaker 1: and they and the voters of Manhattan elected him on 541 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: the promise to get Trump. So I think both those 542 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: things go into the mix when Trump brings his motion 543 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: that this is an unconstitutional selective prosecution. You have the judge, 544 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: you have the prosecutor, and you have the jury pool, 545 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: which you all seem to have it in for him. 546 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: You know, he'll have to make the case on the judge, 547 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: and you know, Trump is saying very aggressive things about 548 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: the judge who has handled other cases involving the Trump organization. 549 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: Trump's lawyer is, on the other hand, are saying very 550 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: different things about the judge and that, like, you know, 551 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: they don't think that there's a basis, at least at 552 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: this point to say that he's unfair. But we'll have 553 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: to see how he handles the case and how that unfolds. 554 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: But if I'm Trump, the argument I make is not 555 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: just based on the judge, or even just based on Bragg, 556 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: or even based on the jury pool. I would I 557 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: bring the whole thing together and just say, you know, 558 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: there's no way that this is a fair proceeding. Well, 559 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: and obviously they the concern at all of this is, 560 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,239 Speaker 1: you know, we're talking about a liberal city and a 561 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,959 Speaker 1: liberal state, with liberal judges, with a jury of your 562 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: peers or probably a bunch of liberals, and you know, 563 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: so a lot of people are concerned, you know, can 564 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: he get a fair shake in that environment? In your estimation, 565 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: with your experience of having been in the you know, 566 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: the Southern District of New York on the federal level, 567 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: but you know, kind of understanding the court system in 568 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 1: the state of New York, what happens with this? How 569 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: does this go down? Do you think I think it 570 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: gets thrown out prior to trial. I don't think this 571 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: case ever gets tride. Do you think he can get 572 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: a fair shake? Yeah, I think if the judge, you know, 573 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that 574 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: the judge is unfair. You know, It's one thing to 575 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: say that, you know, he has political preferences. Everybody in 576 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: New York has political preferences. It's another thing to say 577 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: that he won't do his job right and that this 578 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 1: seems to be an egregious set of legal flaws with 579 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: respect to this particular indictment. And Lisa, let's remember, even 580 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: the left wing commentariat is out there saying, oh boy, 581 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: you know, Bragg really laid an egg here. So it's 582 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: not like the judge would be the first person on 583 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: the political left of center if you threw this case 584 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 1: out to say that there are a lot of problems 585 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: with this case. The other thing I would just point 586 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: out to people is that, you know, we're looking at 587 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: this case in a vacuum at the moment because it's 588 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: the only one in front of us. But by the 589 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: time we come back eight months from now, I think 590 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: even eight weeks from now, this could be a very 591 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 1: different situation. I mean, you know, I think by May 592 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: you may see charges from the prosecutor in Fulton County, 593 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: Fanny Willis, who's looking into the Georgia twenty twenty election stuff. 594 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: And it's obvious that this special council from the Justice 595 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: Department is steaming ahead. You know, this week probably the 596 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: biggest thing in terms of significance. I don't think that 597 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: the brag case is much but in terms of future 598 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: significance for Trump, maybe the most important thing that's happening 599 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: this week is is Jack Smith, the Special Counsel, is 600 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: putting Secret Service agents in the grand jury on Friday 601 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: to testify about what they observed in terms of Trump 602 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: looking at and reviewing documents. And it's obvious that the 603 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: reason they're doing that is to try to He's doing 604 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: that to try to help build his grand jury obstruction case. 605 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: What they want to show is that after Trump's lawyers 606 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: told the Justice Department in June of twenty twenty two 607 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,760 Speaker 1: that they had done a thorough search of Mara Lago 608 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: and the thirty eight documents they gave them that day 609 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: were the only thirty eight documents with classification markings at 610 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: Mara Lago, what Smith is now trying to develop is 611 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: evidence that Trump not only knew that wasn't true, but 612 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: that he actually physically reviewed and moved documents around the 613 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,439 Speaker 1: property after that. So that's clearly why he's putting the 614 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: Secret Service agents. And it's a very weighty thing. The 615 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: government hates the idea of Secret Service agents testifying against 616 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: their protectees. It makes it very difficult for the Secret 617 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: Service to do their job. That is not the kind 618 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: of thing that a prosecutor does unless he's dead serious 619 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: about making this case. And I think you can say 620 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: that for the way he's handled January six two, because 621 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: he's now you know, he's getting Mike Pence, who is 622 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: the highest ranking executive official other than Trump and the 623 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: Trump administration. He's going to have to testify in the 624 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 1: grand jury next week, and he's already also compelled testimony 625 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: from you know, the Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, and 626 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 1: other top officials in the Trump administration. The reason I 627 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: mentioned that is the Justice Department is usually in court 628 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: when these kind of things come up, arguing for a 629 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: very robust, extravagant interpretation of what the executive branch's privileges are. Here, 630 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: what's happening is they're eroding the privileges, which will be 631 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: to the detriment of Biden and all future presidents. Again, 632 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: I think it's the kind of thing they wouldn't do 633 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: unless they were dead serious about making a case. So 634 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 1: I think if we come back, you know, a couple 635 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: of months from now, this may not be the only case, 636 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: and we may look at this a lot differently. I 637 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: mean the left ones. I'm behind bars, you know, we 638 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: know this. And with all these criminal investigations, he's facing 639 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: the probability that has increased. What happens if he has 640 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: found guilty before the election, if that is what the 641 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: timeline would look like, or what happens if he was 642 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: to hypothetically win the election and then found guilty. Yeah, 643 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 1: I don't think he'll ever be found guilty before the election. 644 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: And my own view of it is for you for 645 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: what it's worth. I mean, you're not asking me to 646 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: put my political head on, but I'll put it on. 647 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: I think they want him to be the nominee, and 648 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: I think they realized that the more unfair and provocative 649 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: they are, and the more it looks like they're using 650 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system as a political weapon against him, 651 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: the more it gins up the Trump base. We've already 652 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 1: seen this week he had his best week politically. It's 653 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,959 Speaker 1: it's astonishing if you think about like all the things 654 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: that the Santis is accomplishing in Florida, you know, to 655 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: see Trump, you know, Spike ahead of him as he's done. 656 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously this is just a snapshot and we'll 657 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: see how it all plays out. But you know, the 658 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 1: effect that this is having on the Republican electorate is 659 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: exactly what the Democrats want. So I've always thought that 660 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: they're not going to drop these indictments without thinking through timing. 661 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: And I don't see him ever going to trial or 662 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: being convicted, much less anyone trying to impose a jail 663 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: sentence before at least before he's tied up the Republican nomination. 664 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: That's what they want. They like, the Democrats, like the 665 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: havoc that this is wreaking in Republican politics. As for 666 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 1: what happens if he gets, you know, indicted or convicted, 667 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: you know, the Constitution says that the only qualifications for 668 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 1: president are that you be over the age of thirty five, 669 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: a natural board citizen, and resident in the United States 670 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: for fourteen years. That's it. There's nothing in the Constitution 671 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: that says that the American people can't elect not only 672 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: somebody who's accused of a crime, but somebody who's convicted 673 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: of a crime and in prison. Now, you obviously, if 674 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: a person couldn't perform the functions of the presidency for 675 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: whatever reason, it would be incumbent on Congress to impeach 676 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 1: and remove and disqualify the person. But you know, we're 677 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 1: a long way from that. There's nothing that says that 678 00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: he can't be nominated, elected, and served while he's under investigation, indictment, 679 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 1: or even I think they would probably if he got 680 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: elected and he hadn't been tried yet. I think the 681 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: courts would probably suspend the trials until after his term 682 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: was over. But you know, anyone tells you, Lisa that 683 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: they know what's going to happen here is either lying 684 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: or delusional because we've never been here before and nobody 685 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: knows what's going to happen. What is the probability in 686 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: your mind of them landing a conviction on either the 687 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: federal charges he's facing, the charges out of New York 688 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: or or Fulton, Georgia. I think I don't like the 689 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,800 Speaker 1: January sixth case, but I think Smith is pretty serious 690 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: about bringing it. I don't like it because it's you know, 691 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: he's probably going to charge him if he brings a 692 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:46,720 Speaker 1: case with conspiring to obstruct Congress's ratification of Biden's election. 693 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: The only way I think he can do that is 694 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: by criminalizing a legal theory, which, even if it's a 695 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: bone headed legal theory, I think that's a road we 696 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: don't want to go down. When I was a prosecutor, 697 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: if a frivolous eagle theory is now going to be 698 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 1: a felony, I could have charged five of them a day. 699 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: I mean, defense lawyers are very creative with some of 700 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: the stuff they come up with. So I hope he 701 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: doesn't go there, but he may go there. The strongest case, 702 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,479 Speaker 1: least it seems to me, is the documents case, which 703 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: would be presented as a documents case except for the 704 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: political inconvenience that it turns out that Biden also is 705 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: a serial hoarder of classified documents illegally. So now what 706 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: you have seen happen, and I think this was pretty predictable. 707 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,800 Speaker 1: The minute that it became obvious that Biden also hoarded 708 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: classified documents, the prosecutor, the Justice Department, the Biden administration, 709 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: and the media Democrat complex has reframed that case from 710 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: a document retention case to a grand jury obstruction case. 711 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: And what they're going to argue is that the difference 712 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: in the two situations and what justifies prosecuting Trump but 713 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 1: not trust prosecuting Biden. Is that Biden cooperated with the authorities, 714 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: whereas Trump obstructed the grand jury. I don't know if 715 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: that's going to work as a public relations strategy, but 716 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,839 Speaker 1: that's their story and they're sticking to it. And I 717 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: do think he's going to be indicted for obstructing the 718 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: grand jury. Well, so, I think you can make the 719 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: argument that he didn't because there was additional documents in 720 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: his home that he didn't make them aware of. But 721 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: I see your point in terms of legally what they 722 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: would they would try to argue. But Andy, this has 723 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: been truly fascinating. I have learned so much in this 724 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: period of time with you. I would absolutely love to 725 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: have you back on the show. You do such a 726 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 1: great job breaking this all down for people like me 727 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,280 Speaker 1: who do not have a legal debate but doing show, 728 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 1: but doing so, you know, it's good for your mental 729 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: health that you didn't let them do law school to you, Lisa, 730 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: So that's good. And look at all these my dad's 731 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: look at all these crimes you haven't committed. So you know, well, 732 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,720 Speaker 1: my dad's a lawyer, and I thought about it because 733 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,280 Speaker 1: I you know, I kind of share his analytical nature, 734 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: but this was fascinating. You do such a great job. 735 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: I've learned so much from you, and I just truly 736 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: appreciate your time and your expertise in in this So 737 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 1: thank you so much. Thank you for having me appreciate it. 738 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: So is Andy McCarthy. I'm so glad he came on 739 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: the show because he does such a good job of 740 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: I think it's really hard for attorneys and particularly people 741 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: in the legal field to break things down in layman's terms, 742 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 1: and he's able to do that in such a take 743 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 1: these complex issues and make it easy for us to 744 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 1: understand even without having a legal degree or a legal background. 745 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: Rather so I appreciate him coming on the show. I 746 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: appreciate you guys at home for listening every Monday and Thursday, 747 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: but you can listen throughout the week. I want to 748 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: thank John Cassio, my producer, for putting the show together. 749 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:54,959 Speaker 1: Until next time,