Speaker 1: I guess what will? What's that mango? So you know
Speaker 1: how their names of groups of animals, like I think
Speaker 1: a group of crows is a murder of crows, or
Speaker 1: if you have a group of rhinoceros is called a crash,
Speaker 1: not a squad, which you know, I guess Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: or my son would call them. It's a crash. Just
Speaker 1: one more similarity between Taylor Swift and your son. You did,
Speaker 1: you forgot a couple of my favorites. So I've always
Speaker 1: loved smack of jellyfish, and then of course a business
Speaker 1: of ferrets, which I don't know why, but that's my favorite.
Speaker 1: I think it is pretty great. So I found this
Speaker 1: video online called how to Care for Your Introvert, which
Speaker 1: claims that a pair of introverts is actually called an
Speaker 1: awkward and a group of introverts is what you call
Speaker 1: an angst. Is this real? Like, of course not, but
Speaker 1: the whole video is joky and fun, and it points
Speaker 1: out that introverts are rarely found together in the wild.
Speaker 1: So these are mostly theoretical terms anyway. But as you know,
Speaker 1: I'm definitely an introvert, and when I was in high school,
Speaker 1: I almost used to bristle at this phrase, like all
Speaker 1: great figures in history are seen as charismatic and big characters,
Speaker 1: And I figured, you know, I could be fun at
Speaker 1: a party and friends, I do things, So I figured
Speaker 1: there was no way I should be lumped in with
Speaker 1: the introverts. But then in college I quickly realized I
Speaker 1: am such an introvert, especially when I compared myself to
Speaker 1: my wife, who just crams in so many things into
Speaker 1: our social calendar. It doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 1: But you know, this whole thing has made me wonder
Speaker 1: what does being an introvert really mean? Like do you
Speaker 1: have to be strictly an introvert or an extrovert? Or
Speaker 1: is there a spectrum? Do our brains actually behave differently?
Speaker 1: And is it okay for me to hit the closed
Speaker 1: door button on an elevator when someone's trying to catch
Speaker 1: a ride with me, Because I would really love a
Speaker 1: scientific excuse to say that's all right, let's dive in,
Speaker 1: say their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Speaker 1: Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined by my good
Speaker 1: friend Mangesh Ticketer. And on the other side of the
Speaker 1: soundproof glass sporting yet another one of his classic T shirts.
Speaker 1: This one just says introverts social club. Why go big
Speaker 1: when you can go home? This is one of my
Speaker 1: favorites of his. But that's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil,
Speaker 1: And I've got to say, for an introverted guy, he
Speaker 1: definitely speaks volumes with his shirts. Mango wouldn't agree. Definitely. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, one thing I realized while doing the research
Speaker 1: for today's show is that introverts can be pretty tough
Speaker 1: to pin down in terms of personality. And you know,
Speaker 1: and most of us here the term, we immediately think
Speaker 1: of traits like sensitivity, or introspection or maybe quietness. I mean,
Speaker 1: but the truth is, none of those things are guaranteed
Speaker 1: signs of introversion. And that's because introversion is definitely a
Speaker 1: spectrum rather than being this one set way of being.
Speaker 1: So with that distinction in mind, I thought we could
Speaker 1: use this episode as a way to kind of set
Speaker 1: the record straight on what's probably one of the more
Speaker 1: misunderstood aspects of human personality. We're gonna look at the
Speaker 1: science behind introversion as well as how our society tends
Speaker 1: to view introverted people. And we'll also run through some
Speaker 1: of the pros and cons to really see how introverts
Speaker 1: stack up against their more outgoing counterparts, and to kick
Speaker 1: things off, I I thought we could talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about what introversion is and also what it isn't.
Speaker 1: So to start from the beginning, the terms introvert and
Speaker 1: extrovert were first coined by Carl Jung way back in
Speaker 1: He used them mainly as a way to distinguish between
Speaker 1: two prevalent types of personality, those who feel more connected
Speaker 1: to their inward thoughts and feelings and those who focus
Speaker 1: primarily on the external world. And really, that was it,
Speaker 1: Like there was no stigma, no rank attached to one
Speaker 1: or another. You know. It wasn't like my wife who
Speaker 1: tells me you introverts think you're so special. Like these
Speaker 1: were just two different, equally valid ways of experiencing and
Speaker 1: processing the world. And in the years since then, other
Speaker 1: researchers have expanded on Young's ideas. Of course, there's no
Speaker 1: catch all definition for the term, but there at least
Speaker 1: a few things we can say about introverts in general.
Speaker 1: For example, introverts tend to be good listeners, who think
Speaker 1: before they speak. They enjoy time alone, They usually need
Speaker 1: less stimulation than extroverts when it comes to entertainment. And
Speaker 1: while they typically tire of small talk quickly, they can
Speaker 1: talk to your ear off when they're given the chance
Speaker 1: to dig into a topic they really care about, you know.
Speaker 1: And and I think this was something that I've really
Speaker 1: thought about in the past week or so as we've
Speaker 1: been working on this topic. And that's the fact that
Speaker 1: no one is really a hundred percent introverted or add
Speaker 1: percent extroverted other than my year old Mammo. I think
Speaker 1: she's pretty close to extrovert extrovert. She's definitely an extrovert.
Speaker 1: But but we're all really more of a mix of
Speaker 1: both personality types. And I've actually realized that about the
Speaker 1: two of us. If if people are looking at the
Speaker 1: two of us, most people would say you're an introvert
Speaker 1: and I'm an extrovert. But really, as we've been doing
Speaker 1: the research, you kind of realize there is this very
Speaker 1: real mix. It's just that most of us lean harder
Speaker 1: one way than the other, definitely, and that's why you'll
Speaker 1: find like a quiet classmate or a coworker can actually
Speaker 1: be a really engaging public speaker. And that's because of
Speaker 1: this big cultural misconception that all introverts are incredibly shy
Speaker 1: people who can never get up in front of an
Speaker 1: audience without cracking under the pressure. But in reality, introversion
Speaker 1: is a completely different thing than shyness. So I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if you remember that groundbreaking book on introverts. It
Speaker 1: was written by Susan Kine. It's called Quiet. It came
Speaker 1: out about Yeah, it came out about five or six
Speaker 1: years ago, and it's full of really insightful takes on introversion.
Speaker 1: And one of the things Susan covers is that shyness
Speaker 1: and being an introvert are driven by completely different forces.
Speaker 1: So listen to how she explains it. Quote, shyness is
Speaker 1: the fear of social disapproval or humiliation. Well, introversion is
Speaker 1: a preference for environments that are not over stimulating. Shyness
Speaker 1: is inherently painful, Introversion is not. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that's such an interesting quote from that, because those are
Speaker 1: definitely two words that I think people have just assumed
Speaker 1: kind of meant the same thing. But so think a
Speaker 1: little bit more about it. So, shyness is more of
Speaker 1: a reaction than a way of being, and so as
Speaker 1: a result, you could even have an extrovert who might
Speaker 1: really enjoy being around crowds, but actually it is definitely
Speaker 1: afraid of being in the spotlight themselves. Absolutely, And in
Speaker 1: the same way, it's possible to have an introvert who's
Speaker 1: also shy. Since shinus is a learned behavior, an introvert
Speaker 1: could develop a fear of social situations because they've been
Speaker 1: made to feel like they don't measure up to extroverts.
Speaker 1: So it could actually be this, I guess, the self
Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy. Well, and there's that same kind of misconception
Speaker 1: about social anxiety. I mean, a lot of people would
Speaker 1: assume that that condition goes hand in hand with introversion,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily. I mean, social anxiety is is
Speaker 1: similar to shyness, and that it's largely learned behavior, but
Speaker 1: anxiety also tends to run in families, so is without
Speaker 1: question a very real genetic lenk there as well. It's just,
Speaker 1: you know, a more extreme form of self consciousness than
Speaker 1: either shyness or introversion. And just trying to think of
Speaker 1: an example of this, I mean, somebody with social anxiety
Speaker 1: might feel totally incapable in a social situation, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe they tell themselves they don't have anything to contribute,
Speaker 1: or that people ignore or misunderstand them, so why bother
Speaker 1: even saying anything. But I mean, that's generally not the
Speaker 1: case with introverts. In fact, many of them are pretty
Speaker 1: adept at kind of you know, you might say, turning
Speaker 1: on their social skills when they need to. All right, well,
Speaker 1: now that we know some of the things that introversion
Speaker 1: is not, we should talk about what it actually is.
Speaker 1: And like you alluded to at the top of the show,
Speaker 1: that's kind of easier said than done because most popular
Speaker 1: definitions fail to capture the range of ways that introversion
Speaker 1: manifests in people like we tend to view introversion as
Speaker 1: opposite to extroversion. So if an extroverts outspoken, then an
Speaker 1: introvert is tight lip. This is kind of a dumbing
Speaker 1: down of distinctions, and it's really nothing new. But thankfully
Speaker 1: there's been a lot more research on the subject, and
Speaker 1: that includes the work of a psychology professor at Wellesley
Speaker 1: College named Jonathan Cheeks. So a few years back, he
Speaker 1: surveyed a group of five adults and he asked them
Speaker 1: everything from how often they dy dream, how important they
Speaker 1: consider solitude for their well being all sorts questions like this,
Speaker 1: and then Cheek used their responses to help develop what
Speaker 1: he called the star chart. But you know you don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about this, well, I know you've got
Speaker 1: an aversion to astrology. This has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: where mercury is rising. And it's actually a breakdown of
Speaker 1: what Cheek considers the four types of introversion. So it's social, thinking, anxious,
Speaker 1: and restraint. Even better, so we've got an acronym, and
Speaker 1: you know I love a good acreatim So now I
Speaker 1: feel like you deserve the chance to kind of give
Speaker 1: us a rundown of what falls in each of those
Speaker 1: those four categories. Sure, so the S is social introversion,
Speaker 1: and this is probably what a lot of people would
Speaker 1: think of when they're asked to describe introverts, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's basically a preference for small groups over large ones,
Speaker 1: for more solitary activities, you know, thinking about things like
Speaker 1: reading a book or watching a movie. Thinking introversion, which
Speaker 1: is the T that's a little different. Introverts of this
Speaker 1: type don't mind like big social events or these highly
Speaker 1: stimulating environments, and that's mainly because they're really connected to
Speaker 1: their interior world. You know, all that commotion around them
Speaker 1: is really drowned out by all the introspection that they
Speaker 1: go through in self reflection that occupies their minds. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so these are people. I mean it kind of makes
Speaker 1: me think of the phrase where we talk about people
Speaker 1: being in their own little world. I guess, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And the example I read try to lay it out
Speaker 1: in Harry Potter terms, which is of course very much appreciated.
Speaker 1: And in that case, the socially awkward nevill would be
Speaker 1: a social introvert, while a thinking introvert would be someone
Speaker 1: more like Luna Lovegood, you know, who's sort of dreamily creative. Right,
Speaker 1: that makes sense. I feel like everything makes more sense
Speaker 1: when you can explain it in Harry Potter. So evidently
Speaker 1: we'll try to do that with all future episodes. But
Speaker 1: all right, so that's the S and the T. So
Speaker 1: how about the A and the R. Right, So next
Speaker 1: up is anxious introversion. As you might guess from the name,
Speaker 1: this refers to introverts who have also some form of
Speaker 1: social anxiety, and it's characterized by a tendency to kind
Speaker 1: of overthink things and also to dwell on your mistakes
Speaker 1: or perceived mistakes for well after the fact, I mean,
Speaker 1: it really is, it can be crippling. And lastly, there's
Speaker 1: the R and star, which refers to restrained or reserved.
Speaker 1: And uh, these are people who take a little while
Speaker 1: to get going. So instead of diving straight into a conversation,
Speaker 1: a restrained introvert, might you know, hear what everyone has
Speaker 1: to say, really take their time to absorb and think
Speaker 1: on it and then offer their own thoughts. So pretty
Speaker 1: much there to think first, act let people in the world. Okay,
Speaker 1: that makes sense, And I feel like this four way
Speaker 1: system definitely covers more ground than just the one blanket term.
Speaker 1: But I have to also think that, you know, there's
Speaker 1: an awful lot of overlap between the different types, Like
Speaker 1: I can imagine somebody being a part thinking introvert and
Speaker 1: part restrained introvert or some other combination of these four definitely,
Speaker 1: and when she came up with this model, he really
Speaker 1: wanted to expand the definition of introvert, not just replace
Speaker 1: it with these four strict types. So, according to him,
Speaker 1: plenty of introverts are actually a mix of all four types.
Speaker 1: Al Right, well, I'd say we have a pretty good
Speaker 1: grasp on what goes into being an introvert. So why
Speaker 1: why don't we switch gears a little bit and talk
Speaker 1: about the science of introversion Because it isn't by chance
Speaker 1: that introverts and extroverts think differently. I mean, their brains
Speaker 1: are actually different. For example, if you look at brain
Speaker 1: scans of the two different types of brains, you'd see
Speaker 1: a thicker prefrontal cortex in introverts when you compare them
Speaker 1: to extroverts. And since that part of the brain is
Speaker 1: connected with things like deep thought and planning, that bigger
Speaker 1: cortex might actually explain why introverts tend to be less
Speaker 1: impulsive than extroverts. Now, instead of processing new information directly,
Speaker 1: these introverts first run it through the neural pathway that
Speaker 1: deals with planning and long term memor Marie. And so
Speaker 1: this is why introverts might actually take longer to make
Speaker 1: a decision or former response, because they're comparing old and
Speaker 1: new experiences and even weighing the potential outcomes while they
Speaker 1: mold things over. And so this can slow the thinking
Speaker 1: process down a pretty good bid actually, but it also
Speaker 1: results in these carefully thought out responses and choices, and
Speaker 1: it's not something that you always get with extroverts, which
Speaker 1: is interesting. You know, I hadn't heard about that bigger
Speaker 1: cortex is thing, But now I feel like I'm gonna
Speaker 1: brag to everyone about how large my cortex. Probably I
Speaker 1: knew that that was coming. I know you're gonna be
Speaker 1: bragging about this non stuff. So actually, the differences between
Speaker 1: introverted and extroverted brains that I've always heard about is
Speaker 1: the way we respond to dopamine. And you know, we've
Speaker 1: talked about this before. Dopamine is one of the neurotransmitters
Speaker 1: that's closely tied to our sensation of pleasure, especially when
Speaker 1: it comes to seeking rewards or taking risks, and uh,
Speaker 1: Dopamine has similar effects on introverts and extroverts alike. When
Speaker 1: it hits your brain, you feel more alert, you might
Speaker 1: be more talkative, more motivated to take chances, and in fact,
Speaker 1: introverts and extroverts even have the same amount of dopamine
Speaker 1: in their bodies. The differences that dopamine triggers the reward
Speaker 1: network much more strongly in the brains of extroverts. So
Speaker 1: take something like earning a promotion at work that would
Speaker 1: likely generate excitement in both kinds of people, right, But
Speaker 1: the extrovert would feel that excitement to a much greater
Speaker 1: degree than the introvert, which I don't know, when you
Speaker 1: think about it, feels like kind of a raw deal
Speaker 1: for the introverse. If it feels like they're getting jipped
Speaker 1: on the whole dopamine thing, I guess, well, don't feel
Speaker 1: too bad just yet, because there's actually another transmitter is
Speaker 1: a newer transmitter called acetal coline, and it's also associated
Speaker 1: with pleasure, but this one is the go to choice
Speaker 1: for introverts looking to unwind, and unlike dopamine, acetal coline
Speaker 1: generates these happy feelings for more inward focused activities, so
Speaker 1: like thinking deeply about something or concentrating on one thing
Speaker 1: for an extended period. And the chemical is tied to
Speaker 1: the parasympathetic side of the nervous system, which is nicknamed
Speaker 1: the throttledown or the rest and digest side. So if
Speaker 1: Netflix and Chill is actually your pastime a choice, you
Speaker 1: can thank a settle colin for that. All right. Well,
Speaker 1: since we're getting into the comparisons between introverts and extroverts,
Speaker 1: I feel like we should go through our list of
Speaker 1: pros and cons and see how the two ways of
Speaker 1: being kind of stack up against one another. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: sounds fun to me. But first, let's take a quick break.
Speaker 1: If you're listening to Part Time Genius and we're talking
Speaker 1: about the not so subtle differences between introverts and extroverts, alright,
Speaker 1: I go. So the first introvert advantage that I want
Speaker 1: to talk about is their knack for being able to
Speaker 1: read people, because when it comes to judging how another
Speaker 1: person will think, or feel or act, start show that
Speaker 1: introverts make better inferences than you know, extroverts. And that's
Speaker 1: almost every single time. And we do know this thanks
Speaker 1: to a study from a team of psychologists at Yale,
Speaker 1: because they were asking more than a thousand participants about
Speaker 1: how the average person would react in different social situations. So,
Speaker 1: for example, this one comes straight from the test, and
Speaker 1: here's the question. It's quote, people are usually overly confident
Speaker 1: in the accuracy of their judgments true or false. I
Speaker 1: mean I have to say true on that, but I
Speaker 1: also feel like I might be being overconfident of course,
Speaker 1: but actually you got the correct answer on this one.
Speaker 1: But anyway, after the survey, the researchers rounded up the
Speaker 1: highest scoring participants, and then they ran a series of
Speaker 1: psychological tests, and they did this to determine which personality
Speaker 1: traits these people had in common. Now, it's not surprising
Speaker 1: that the respondents who made the most accurate judgments were
Speaker 1: more likely to be intelligent and interested in problem solving
Speaker 1: than those who scored poorly. But the more surprising finding
Speaker 1: was that these same people were also more introverted. And
Speaker 1: as one of the studies authors explains, quote, it could
Speaker 1: be that the introverted people are spending more time observing
Speaker 1: human nature than those who are busy interacting with others,
Speaker 1: or they're more accurate and introspection because they have fewer
Speaker 1: motivational biases. They don't view the world through rose colored
Speaker 1: glasses as jovial and extroverted people do. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: that does track with what we were saying about introverts
Speaker 1: and how they have a tendency to think carefully and
Speaker 1: be more observant of their surroundings. That's true, but I
Speaker 1: don't want to get accused of serious bias here, so
Speaker 1: I should point out that there was a drawback to
Speaker 1: the introverts perception powers in this same study, because along
Speaker 1: with that intelligence and curiosity, those highest scoring participants also
Speaker 1: reported being more lonely and maybe having lower self esteem
Speaker 1: than they're more extroverted counterparts, So it's not really an
Speaker 1: across the board win for either one of these groups. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and those kind of tradeoffs kind of pop up a
Speaker 1: lot when you compare introverts and extroverts, And I mean,
Speaker 1: it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective that both types
Speaker 1: of people would excel and also lag in different ways.
Speaker 1: You know, if one way of being was decidedly better
Speaker 1: than the other, it feels like we still wouldn't have
Speaker 1: both types of people in the world. And if you
Speaker 1: think about how these different traits might have emerged in
Speaker 1: the first place, it's easy to see their respective evolutionary advantages. Like, um,
Speaker 1: if you took like prehistoric introverts, they likely would have
Speaker 1: stuck close to the cave and avoided predators, which would
Speaker 1: have increased their chances of not being eaten. And on
Speaker 1: the other hand, like the extroverted caveman would have wandered
Speaker 1: far and wide and and they would have had the
Speaker 1: instincts to look for new types of food and shelter
Speaker 1: and all of that. When shelter was in short supply
Speaker 1: and that's a good point. I had not really thought
Speaker 1: about that way. But I mean, what would you make
Speaker 1: of the idea that introverts tend to be more melancholic?
Speaker 1: I mean, I know I've heard before that extroverts or
Speaker 1: happier people overall when they're measured against introverts, and that study,
Speaker 1: for Meal, does seem to lend some credence to that theory.
Speaker 1: I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I've actually seen those studies before too, and they're usually
Speaker 1: center on that dopamine reaction that we talked about earlier.
Speaker 1: And the truth is, happiness levels are pretty evenly matched
Speaker 1: between introverts and extroverts when it comes I guess to
Speaker 1: like inwardly focused activities, you know, watching TV, listening to music,
Speaker 1: reading a book. But the real disparity arises when you
Speaker 1: look at happiness levels during social activities and the ones
Speaker 1: where some kind of reward is at stake, and in
Speaker 1: those cases extroverts really have the advantage. But you know,
Speaker 1: according to Susan Caine, this is more about how we
Speaker 1: define happiness than it is about who's objectively happier. For example,
Speaker 1: in in Western culture is like our own, we we
Speaker 1: have a habit of viewing happiness as an active state.
Speaker 1: It's sort of this explosive enthusiasm and excitement and giddiness.
Speaker 1: And you know, that's not the case for Eastern cultures,
Speaker 1: where happiness is seen as something more past of its
Speaker 1: contentment and peacefulness and almost this feeling of being present
Speaker 1: and focused in the moment. So Kine actually has a
Speaker 1: quote on this. She says, when introverts talk about the
Speaker 1: things that they most love to do, it's very often
Speaker 1: activities like reading, hiking, cycling, being with their spouses, being
Speaker 1: with their children. It's a quieter type of contentment that
Speaker 1: often fuels introverts and that we don't pay proper attention to.
Speaker 1: But speaking of proper attention, you know that might be
Speaker 1: another reason that extroverts report such higher levels of happiness,
Speaker 1: because they're less introspective, and because of that, they also
Speaker 1: tend to overlook drawbacks and great experiences on a curve. So,
Speaker 1: for example, an extrovert might say that they had a
Speaker 1: great time at a party and not even mention things
Speaker 1: like there wasn't enough food to go around or that
Speaker 1: the sound system kept going out. But I guess feel
Speaker 1: like you're using specific examples from things. These are things
Speaker 1: that haven't at a party, I want to But you know,
Speaker 1: an introvert would likely notice all these little details and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, have a better sense of how it impacted
Speaker 1: everyone's overall experience. But you know, in the end, it
Speaker 1: could be that the introverts are more inclined to give
Speaker 1: this less rosy and potentially more accurate assessment of how
Speaker 1: happy they really are. I mean, I think that's probably true.
Speaker 1: But I mean, back to what we were saying about
Speaker 1: those trade offs, and to be fair, there are costs
Speaker 1: to being an extrovert as well. I mean, we mentioned
Speaker 1: that extroverts have this pensiont for risk taking, and so
Speaker 1: as you might expect, that tendency can backfire in some
Speaker 1: pretty damaging ways. I mean, as an example, extroverts are
Speaker 1: more likely to be hospitalized for an accident or for
Speaker 1: an illness than introverts are, and they're more likely to
Speaker 1: develop criminal behaviors. They're more likely to get arrested. To like,
Speaker 1: all of these things are true, that can't be true.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like they're more likely to be arrested. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is why I'm trying to claim that I'm not
Speaker 1: as much of an extrovert, as I once thought that
Speaker 1: I was. I mean, but I guess it makes sense
Speaker 1: if you're impulsive instead of a planner. But this does
Speaker 1: come from the journal Comprehensive Psychiatry, and this was from
Speaker 1: re search conducted at Johns Hopkins and at the Bloomberg
Speaker 1: School of Public Health. So Mango, that sounds about as
Speaker 1: legit as it gets. Yeah, that's so bizarre. But you know,
Speaker 1: we've been focusing on differences. I I do want to
Speaker 1: make sure that we mentioned some of the similarities between
Speaker 1: introverts and extroverts, and this is a pretty unexpected one.
Speaker 1: So you know how introverts need time alone to kind
Speaker 1: of recharge their batteries after a social outing. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like this is always the definition I've always used
Speaker 1: for introversion. And obviously these people can turn on their
Speaker 1: extroverted behavior for a while, but they eventually start to
Speaker 1: feel drained and just want to go home and relax.
Speaker 1: But it turns out that too much socializing can actually
Speaker 1: be exhausting for everyone, even extroverts. So a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, this finished research team found that the more
Speaker 1: people were acting extroverted, the more they reported being in
Speaker 1: a positive mood and feeling unfatigued in the moment. However,
Speaker 1: after three hours of socializing, people report these higher levels
Speaker 1: of fatigue. And this was true for both introverts and extroverts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, but three hours of intense socializing that just
Speaker 1: sounds exhausting. Like, I don't know, who wouldn't be tired
Speaker 1: by that? Clinton, I think that's probably right. But I mean,
Speaker 1: it is interesting that acting introverted netted the same positive
Speaker 1: mood boost for both the introverts and the extroverts, at least,
Speaker 1: you know, for a little while. But and I guess
Speaker 1: it goes to show that humans really are social animals,
Speaker 1: just two differing degrees. I guess. Yeah, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: probably a safe that But before we move on, I
Speaker 1: want to point out that not all people lean towards
Speaker 1: extroversion or introversion. There's actually a third kind of person
Speaker 1: called an ambivert, and these are the people who followed
Speaker 1: right smack in the middle of the spectrum, and it's
Speaker 1: actually way more common than I would have expected. I
Speaker 1: thought these were like unicorns, but in fact, according to
Speaker 1: one study, ambiverts makeup about thirty eight percent of the
Speaker 1: population at any given time, It's kind of a weird
Speaker 1: word though, don't you think, like called an ambivert but
Speaker 1: really an insult? I mean, I am curious that, like,
Speaker 1: where do ambiverts land in terms of the kinds of
Speaker 1: advantages that we've been talking up. So the thing is
Speaker 1: that fewer studies have been commissioned on anty verts is
Speaker 1: partially because scientists love studying the extremes, but that there
Speaker 1: was a management expert named Adam Grant who conducted a
Speaker 1: study back in two thousand thirteen. He surveyed three forty
Speaker 1: call center employees and found that two thirds of them
Speaker 1: considered themselves neither introverted nor extroverted. And while you might
Speaker 1: think the extroverts would have this clear advantage when it
Speaker 1: came to talking on the phone for a living, Grant
Speaker 1: actually found that it was the ambiverts who closed most
Speaker 1: of the sales. And do we know why? That is
Speaker 1: not entirely but Grants theories that ambiverts are just better
Speaker 1: suited for both aspects of a sales call. You know,
Speaker 1: they could do the talking, they could also do the listening,
Speaker 1: and as he explained, ambiverts are quote likely to express
Speaker 1: the sertiveness and enthusiasm to persuade and close the sale,
Speaker 1: but are more inclined to listen and also are less
Speaker 1: vulnerable to appearing too excited or overconfident. And I guess
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense when you when you
Speaker 1: think about it. But I'm glad you've broached this subject
Speaker 1: of job proficiency though, because one thing that I was
Speaker 1: looking into this week is how introverts are faring in
Speaker 1: today's job market. I mean, it's it's not surprising that
Speaker 1: they've had a rough go of things in the past,
Speaker 1: both in terms of business and in society as a whole.
Speaker 1: But I was really trying to get a sense of
Speaker 1: whether things have gotten any easier for introverts in the
Speaker 1: information age. Yeah, I mean, you think about that Moneyball example,
Speaker 1: where people who ran funny or didn't look handsome enough
Speaker 1: were considered less exciting prospects and then less valued, and
Speaker 1: you can see how that might apply similarly to quiet employees.
Speaker 1: But let's take another quick break and then dive back in. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: so I know you wanted to talk about how society
Speaker 1: views introverts, and I think I have the perfect Susan
Speaker 1: Caine quote to set the stage. You know, at the
Speaker 1: beginning of her book Quiet, she writes, quote, today we
Speaker 1: make room for a remarkably narrow range of personality styles.
Speaker 1: We're told that to be great is to be bold,
Speaker 1: to be happy is to be sociable. We see ourselves
Speaker 1: as a nation of extroverts, which means that we have
Speaker 1: lost sight of who we really are. Depending on which
Speaker 1: study you consult, one third to one half of Americans
Speaker 1: or introverts. In other words, one out of every two
Speaker 1: or three people. You know, if you are not an
Speaker 1: introvert yourself, you're surely raising, managing, married to, or coupled
Speaker 1: with one. Yeah, I mean that's got to be true.
Speaker 1: And it's clear that our country has a strong bias
Speaker 1: towards extraversion. And actually this is something Kine experience firsthand.
Speaker 1: I mean, she was an attorney and a negotiator before
Speaker 1: she ever decided to get into writing, and she experienced
Speaker 1: this all through her career. That Kane says she felt
Speaker 1: ashamed of being an introvert. And not only did she
Speaker 1: come to view her quietness and reserve as somewhat of
Speaker 1: her professional disadvantage, she even considered it a behavioral defect,
Speaker 1: I mean something to correct or overcome, which is really
Speaker 1: unfortunate to think about. And really, it's no wonder she
Speaker 1: felt this way because most schools and businesses there pressuring
Speaker 1: us all our lives to be more extroverted and to
Speaker 1: get out of our heads and complete work in groups
Speaker 1: and complete you know, things as a team. So it's
Speaker 1: it's not surprising that people would think this way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I hadn't thought about this before, but most
Speaker 1: of our institutions are clearly set to cater to extroverts
Speaker 1: and the kinds of stimulation they enjoy. Like if you
Speaker 1: think about brainstorming meetings where the most upbeat person in
Speaker 1: the office stands at a whiteboard and kind of coaxes
Speaker 1: ideas out of everyone. There's at least forty years of
Speaker 1: research that says individuals brainstorming on their own come up
Speaker 1: with better ideas than groups do. But most businesses have
Speaker 1: missed that memo. You know, I feel like Mango, this
Speaker 1: is one of those episodes where every time you're mentioning things,
Speaker 1: I'm like, you've got somebody specific in mind. I know it,
Speaker 1: but anyway, but you think about that group think mentality
Speaker 1: that it's become the standard in most US schools as well.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the idea that these off the
Speaker 1: cuff interactions will produce these new or creative ideas, and
Speaker 1: and that is probably true in some cases, but that
Speaker 1: approach definitely discounts the creativity that comes with with being
Speaker 1: in solitude sometimes. Yeah, I mean it's a shame too,
Speaker 1: because you don't want kids to think their natural inclinations
Speaker 1: are invalid. Like sometimes you see the parents of preschool
Speaker 1: or elementary age students making apologies for their children's introversion,
Speaker 1: you know, like I'm sorry he's so quiet or something
Speaker 1: like that. I've been guilty of this in the past,
Speaker 1: and and so many of these kids grow up making
Speaker 1: the same apologies for themselves, as if they're innate personalities
Speaker 1: are something they should apologize for. Yeah, that's true. But
Speaker 1: you know, thanks to the work of Susan Kine and
Speaker 1: of course others, that we we've been thinking about this,
Speaker 1: and our society has been showing introverts I think a
Speaker 1: lot more empathy in recent years, and you know, from
Speaker 1: shirts like the one Tristan's rocking and rocking so well today,
Speaker 1: your man. You think about the countless listicles and introvert
Speaker 1: quizzes that we're all bombarded with and being an introvert
Speaker 1: in America is now more accepted than any other time
Speaker 1: in history. In fact, one nice side effect to the
Speaker 1: culture becoming more accepting of introversion is that it opens
Speaker 1: up these new career opportunities for introverts. And in fact,
Speaker 1: have you heard this podcast that's called Hiding in the Bathroom?
Speaker 1: I have not, so it's hosted by an introverted blogger
Speaker 1: turned podcaster named Mora Aaron's Meal, and it's basically an
Speaker 1: ongoing rebuttal to the idea that introversion is always a
Speaker 1: weakness and extraversion is always a strength, which is so
Speaker 1: weird and introvert podcaster, I feel like, who would have
Speaker 1: heard of such a thing? I mean, that can't even
Speaker 1: be possible, can it? I don't think so. Well, it
Speaker 1: makes perfect sense that introverts might thrive, and I feel
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, after all, podcasts walk that line
Speaker 1: between private and public. I guess yeah. And I mean
Speaker 1: it's the same thing we touched on earlier about how
Speaker 1: some introverts actually make great public speaker is because they
Speaker 1: enjoyed the opportunity to dig in and really think about
Speaker 1: these topics and death, which is, you know, why everyone
Speaker 1: should actually listen to Susan Kin's Ted Talk because it's
Speaker 1: really really wonderful. Yeah. Yeah, Well, the Internet has also
Speaker 1: been a boon for introverts. I mean, you get to
Speaker 1: actively engage with so many different people, all from this
Speaker 1: relative comfort and safety of your own home. What's interesting
Speaker 1: is that introverts are finding new career opportunities away from
Speaker 1: their screens too. This is according to Smithsonian, introverts are
Speaker 1: in high demand on Mars, or at least on these
Speaker 1: NASA missions to Mars because, according to a two thousand
Speaker 1: fourteen report, researchers now believe that extroverts could be a
Speaker 1: quote liability on long term space mission. Is that just
Speaker 1: because they're afraid there would be too many criminals in
Speaker 1: the MIDA, way too many criminals. Now, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's really because we're talking about pinning up these talkative,
Speaker 1: highly outgoing people and these isolated environments for years on
Speaker 1: in so I mean, not only with these extroverted team
Speaker 1: members everybody else crazy on board, but they'd also have
Speaker 1: to contend with living in environment that really gives them
Speaker 1: very little room for new activities or social interactions. So
Speaker 1: you could see how it could be pretty tough for him. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean my daughter is a total extrovert too, And
Speaker 1: and before we put her in preschool, when she was
Speaker 1: just at home, we thought she was like a husky
Speaker 1: without work. She was just going around being destructive. I
Speaker 1: couldn't figure out what to do with herself. And then
Speaker 1: you put her in school and she's interacting with kids,
Speaker 1: and suddenly she's just totally happy. Yeah. I mean, you're
Speaker 1: definitely surrounded by extroverts in your life. But you know,
Speaker 1: you think about the goal is to find the right
Speaker 1: balance here and that sweet spot where introverts and extroverts
Speaker 1: kind of even each other out to create this compatible
Speaker 1: and functioning team. Yeah, that that feels like what we
Speaker 1: should be striving for in general. But you know, at
Speaker 1: the risk of going full cornball here, I I did
Speaker 1: want to share some advice that Susan Caine put together
Speaker 1: for the introverts out there. It's called the Quiet Revolution Manifesto,
Speaker 1: and she has ten tips for everyone who is introverted,
Speaker 1: and I thought I'd just share it here. So this
Speaker 1: is how it goes. One there's a word for people
Speaker 1: who are in their heads too much, thinkers. Two Solitude
Speaker 1: is a catalyst for innovation. Three The next generation of
Speaker 1: quiet kids can and must be raised to know their
Speaker 1: own strengths. Four. Sometimes it helps to be a pretend extrovert.
Speaker 1: There's always time to be quiet later. Five, But in
Speaker 1: the long run, staying true to your temperament is the
Speaker 1: key to finding work you love and work that matters. Six.
Speaker 1: One genuine relationship is worth a fistful of business cards.
Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna possible a second. This is actually
Speaker 1: something that made me think differently about networking events, which
Speaker 1: I always feel like I have to go to for
Speaker 1: work and and make contacts and stuff, and I'm terrible
Speaker 1: at them. But it is true, like if if you
Speaker 1: sit in the corner but you make one good relationship
Speaker 1: at these things, it does feel like the event has
Speaker 1: been worthwhile. And that's sort of eased my my thinking
Speaker 1: about this. But back to the list. Seven, it's okay
Speaker 1: across the street to avoid making small talk. Eight. Quiet
Speaker 1: leadership is not an oxymoron. Nine love is essential, garious
Speaker 1: nous is optional, and ten in a gentle way, you
Speaker 1: can shake the world. And that's a quote from Mahakma Gandhi.
Speaker 1: You know what this is. This is inspiring me. I
Speaker 1: feel like the introverts of the world should unite in
Speaker 1: this case, I mean, of course separately in their own houses,
Speaker 1: but exactly, and with that sort of amazing call to
Speaker 1: action that you've just given, what do you say we
Speaker 1: step out of our own shells and go head to
Speaker 1: head and a fact off sounds good? H alright? So
Speaker 1: here's a quick one. Did you know that guzzling coffee
Speaker 1: before meeting my backfire on introverts looking for a little
Speaker 1: bit of a brain boost is according to psychologist Brian
Speaker 1: little Quote, after ingesting about two cups of coffee, extroverts
Speaker 1: carry out task more efficiently, whereas introverts perform less. Well,
Speaker 1: this deficit is magnified if the task they're engaging in
Speaker 1: is quantitative and if it is done under time pressure.
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I've got to cut back my caffeine
Speaker 1: and take So here's a funny one, also related to coffee. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's a new machine in Singapore that's basically an office
Speaker 1: coffee machine that withholds the coffee until two people have
Speaker 1: a conversation in front of it. It's being billed as
Speaker 1: the linked in of coffee machines, and the whole idea
Speaker 1: is to facilitate more human interactions, especially in spaces where
Speaker 1: everyone's communicating on slack. But for those of us who
Speaker 1: are on the quieter end of the spectrum and really
Speaker 1: just want our cup of coffee in the morning. It's
Speaker 1: got a nickname. It's called the introvert torture device. Wow,
Speaker 1: that sounds about right. That's pretty rough, all right. So
Speaker 1: there's been more than a few introverted presidents in American history.
Speaker 1: We of course think of Lincoln being one, and Obama
Speaker 1: was one, but I think Calvin Coolidge might be the
Speaker 1: most famous of them. So there's all these stories of
Speaker 1: people visiting the White House and when they talked, he
Speaker 1: would just stare at them. In fact, during one interview,
Speaker 1: Coolidge said his strategy was basically to let people monologue
Speaker 1: their way out of his office. As he put it,
Speaker 1: many times I say yes or no to people, but
Speaker 1: even that is too much. It winds them up for
Speaker 1: twenty minutes more. I love that. You know, this is
Speaker 1: one great story about Coolidge I have to share. So
Speaker 1: we've talked about him and his weird practical jokes in
Speaker 1: the past, like how he'd hit the buzzer to call
Speaker 1: the Secret Service into his office. And then he'd hide
Speaker 1: under the desk, which honestly just makes him sound like
Speaker 1: an idiot. But I read he'd also often poured cream
Speaker 1: into his saucer instead of his teacup, and then all
Speaker 1: these people sitting around him at a meeting or whatever
Speaker 1: would be confused. So after a while they'd do the same,
Speaker 1: Like they thought, this is how the president likes to
Speaker 1: drink his cream or whatever, and they didn't want to
Speaker 1: him feel bad. They thought maybe he was sophisticated, so
Speaker 1: like they did same thing, And after they'd all poured
Speaker 1: their cream into their saucers, he just quietly placed the
Speaker 1: saucer on the floor for his dogs to laugh at. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know, I think it's so terrific. But here's my fact.
Speaker 1: So apparently we all get more introverted as we get older,
Speaker 1: and you know, I guess this feels true, like we're
Speaker 1: less interested in needing approval, we're less interested in making
Speaker 1: friends and all that stuff. But apparently this is all
Speaker 1: an evolutionary mechanism, so there's more need to make bonds
Speaker 1: when you're younger than when you're older. But what's funny,
Speaker 1: and Susan Kine points this out, is that relative levels
Speaker 1: of introversion tend to stay the same. So she says, like,
Speaker 1: if you go back to your high school reunion, for instance,
Speaker 1: and you went and you ranked everyone in your class
Speaker 1: into their levels of extro version, they all have the
Speaker 1: same rank. But it's just that everyone would have shifted
Speaker 1: together along the spectrum. Yeah, that's pretty interesting, but I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess it also makes sense. Okay. Well, one of
Speaker 1: our favorite kids authors of all time, Theodore Geisel a
Speaker 1: k a. Doctor Seuss, did you know that he was
Speaker 1: a total introvert. Oh that's interesting. I actually wouldn't have
Speaker 1: figured that because you read about him in college and
Speaker 1: he he was always at keg parties and things. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: at least in terms of how he liked to work.
Speaker 1: I mean, he loved working in a quiet studio. And
Speaker 1: in fact, you know, once he became pretty famous, he
Speaker 1: rarely went out in public because he was worried that
Speaker 1: kids would want him to be kind of like the
Speaker 1: cat in the hat, like this big, over the top,
Speaker 1: gregarious figure, and so he actually stayed in because he
Speaker 1: was quote worried his fans would be disappointed by his
Speaker 1: reserved personality. Oh that's that's almost sad, But I do
Speaker 1: like that a person who's definitely had this outsized influence
Speaker 1: on society and kids and just making people happy in general,
Speaker 1: is actually this poster boy for introversion. So I think
Speaker 1: we should quietly quietly tip our hats to Dr SEUs
Speaker 1: and you can keep today's trophy. All right, Well, thanks
Speaker 1: so much. This has been a really fun one. I
Speaker 1: know we've got lots of introverts, it's and extroverts out
Speaker 1: there who've been listening today, and we'd love to hear
Speaker 1: some facts from you that we may have forgotten for
Speaker 1: today's episode. You can always send those two part Time
Speaker 1: Genius at how stuff Works dot com or hit us
Speaker 1: up on Facebook or Twitter, but it's always thanks so
Speaker 1: much for listening. Thanks again for listening. Part Time Genius
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Speaker 1: the mixy mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland does the exact
Speaker 1: producer thing. Gabeluesier is our lead researcher, with support from
Speaker 1: the research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas
Speaker 1: Adams and Eve. Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears.
Speaker 1: Good job, Eves. If you like what you heard, we
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Speaker 1: Do we forget you? Jason who