1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset. 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 2: I'm a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either. 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: a deadly tipping point. 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 3: In Cells will be added to the terrorism Guide. I 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 3: see literally zero hope. 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio, 8 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: Season one, episode five, From Victim to Violence. 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 4: So we're injured by women's beauty and so men often 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 4: see rape as getting even did you get any did 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 4: she put out she has, he wants, he gets or 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 4: he takes. 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: There's plenty of guys out there who hate women and 14 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: they do just fine. Okay, we don't live in some 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 2: just world. 16 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 5: Are you also complete genetic trash with no redeeming qualities? 17 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie Leidecker. 18 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: Gave Castillo, Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. Last episode we 19 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: heard from three self described in cells. Hopelessness was a 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: reoccurring theme and the loneliness was palpable. We found them 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: mostly through Facebook and Reddit, but reaching another corner of 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: the community proved harder men who gather in darker online 23 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: spaces with angrier, more hostile perspectives. Investigative journalist Connor Powell 24 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: reminds us why this divide exists. 25 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 5: On the Intel discussion board intl dot co or insel 26 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 5: dot is, those names are all anonymous, they don't use 27 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 5: their real names. In fact, there was a whole discussion 28 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 5: thread about how you can best protect yourself, about protecting 29 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 5: your identity so that you can essentially post as angrily 30 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 5: as obscene as you want without having to have any repercussions. 31 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 5: And I think you see a lot more abusive language, 32 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 5: a lot more sort of obscene language on this in 33 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 5: cell website. 34 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 6: Online anonymity means no repercussions for being nasty. 35 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 4: Add all this together and you get what psychologists call 36 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 4: the online disinhibition effect, and effectively it dictates that people 37 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 4: will do things online that they wouldn't do in the. 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: Real world because of the strict anonymity and security on 39 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: these forums. We weren't able to speak directly with the men, 40 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: but we wanted you to hear their own words. It's 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: important to understand exactly what's being discussed and internalized by 42 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: young men. Connor share some of these conversations and forum 43 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: posts with crime Analyst, Body Movement Listener. Warning, some of 44 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: the language you'll hear in this episode is offensive. 45 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 5: When you look at some of the posts, there are 46 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 5: some that are sort of indicative of the conversations that 47 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 5: are happening in regular and this is just what I 48 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 5: found yesterday. The headline of this thread is called which type. 49 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 3: Of women do you hate? 50 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: More? 51 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 3: Ugly women or pretty women? 52 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 5: And you know, the first post is, well, that's a 53 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 5: difficult question for me to answer. I hate both, to 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 5: be honest, And then the thread conversation goes sort of 55 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 5: sort of self loathing to loathing of the women. One 56 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 5: person says, you know, both would tear me apart because 57 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 5: the moment I show any interest and try to make 58 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 5: a move, they would sort of destroy me. It sort 59 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 5: of goes back and forth, but it's all very derogatory 60 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 5: towards the women. It's about the ugly women are the 61 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 5: cruelest or the pretty women are the cruelest. This type 62 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 5: of conversation is what you see play out really in 63 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 5: almost every thread on this discussion board. 64 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 6: Viewing it from the outside, it's almost like they like 65 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 6: this self hatred and they want to wallow in it. 66 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 5: But there's other ones about like it pisses me off, 67 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 5: how men pay for everything is the norm, and then 68 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 5: there's a whole discussion about how much these members on 69 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 5: this website hate, how men are responsible for pay for dates, 70 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 5: for mortgages, nights out, and about women sort of being useless. 71 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 5: The men are responsible everything, and it's very much the 72 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 5: men are the victim, and that's what you see time 73 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 5: and time again. 74 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 6: So on one hand they're complaining they're not dating right, 75 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 6: and on the other hand they're complaining that if they 76 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 6: do date, they're not to pay for it too. 77 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 3: Exactly exactly. 78 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: We spoke with a self identified Inceel who goes by 79 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: Brian about his experiences with dating, feeling taken advantage of, 80 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: and rejection. It's a glimpse at how real world pain 81 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: can spill over and sometimes twist into the anger we 82 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: see on these forums. 83 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 7: When you're young, you're always trying. I mean, it's just 84 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 7: testosterone hormones. When you're young, you feel like you need 85 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 7: a woman. I always tried. I'd go to nightclubs, I 86 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 7: tried dating sites and things like that, and nothing was working. 87 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 7: And I had some success, but it was not real success. 88 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 7: The kind of women that I would get and it 89 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 7: didn't happen often, but the kind that I did, they 90 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 7: would always. 91 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 8: Have a alterior motive, like they would want money or 92 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 8: something like that, or you know, didn't want to constantly 93 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 8: go out so that you could afford their lifestyle, you 94 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 8: know what I mean. 95 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: We asked Brian if you had an example of a 96 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: woman having the kind of ulterior motive he described. 97 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 7: I'll give you an example. I did go on it. 98 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 7: I can't even call it a date. That tells you 99 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 7: how bad it is for me, because it was more 100 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 7: like a scam. I went out with a woman and 101 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 7: we went to see a movie and that went well. 102 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 7: Of course, it went well because you don't have to talk. 103 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 7: And after I didn't know what to do, and she 104 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 7: kind of took charge and she's like, let's go drinking. 105 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 7: So I went drinking with her, and then she invited 106 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 7: her sister to come, and I don't even think it 107 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 7: was really her sisters, and we didn't really talk. They 108 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 7: just partied and by the end of the night I 109 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 7: got the bill for all the drinks. I mean, nothing happened. 110 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 7: They just party together and drank and you know, by 111 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 7: the end of the night, I ended up paying like 112 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 7: three hundred bucks for you know what I mean like that. 113 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,559 Speaker 7: That's been my experience and that was years ago. That's 114 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 7: the kind of experiences I've had. I never got to 115 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 7: chance to really get to know or loving, and they 116 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 7: never got a chance to get to know me. 117 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: Here's doctor Rob Whitley. He is a professor of psychiatry 118 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: at McGill University and has been studying men's mental health 119 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: for over twenty years. He wrote a book called Men's 120 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: Issues and Men's Mental Health. Doctor Whitley talks about why 121 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: in cells may in fact be less desirable in the 122 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: dating pool, as in being looked over is not in 123 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: their imagination. 124 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 9: There's another effect which is very relevant to this discussion, 125 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 9: which is that of gender related mating preferences or dating preferences. 126 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 9: The average man and the average woman has a template 127 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 9: in mind about who is the ideal partner, and if 128 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 9: we look at female dating preferences, there is research that 129 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 9: shows that the type of profile that the typical in 130 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 9: cell meets is very low in terms of desirability for 131 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 9: female dating preferences. 132 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Whitley breaks it down looking at why some men 133 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: actually may be shut out or overlooked when it comes 134 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: to dating. 135 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 9: Many in cells have a lower level of education, many 136 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 9: of them are unemployed, many of them have mental health issues. 137 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 9: Whereas female dating prefators and male dating prefaces are typically 138 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 9: looking for somebody who's employed, who's successful, who's well established, 139 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 9: perhaps who's involved in sports or has a certain type 140 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 9: of masculinity and a certain type of physicality and a 141 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 9: certain type of energy, and the in cells do not 142 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 9: fit that profile, and therefore their interpretation that society is 143 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 9: a difficult place for them is matched by the social 144 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 9: scientific research in terms of searching for and accomplishing and 145 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 9: achieving romantic or sexual relationships. 146 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: We continued speaking with experts from different fields about how dating, 147 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: both the reality and idea of it, shapes the in 148 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: cell world. Here's doctor Sarah Day, whose work on in 149 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: cells began from an unexpected research path that led her here. 150 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 10: At PhD and master's degree in criminal justice. And then 151 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 10: while I was in my doctoral program, I studied mass shootings. 152 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 10: I started this around the time of Sandy Hook, and 153 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 10: I eventually began really exhausted by that. It's emotional work. 154 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 10: So as I was thinking about something to pivot to, 155 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 10: I came back to thinking about how many men who 156 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 10: were mass shooters were really aggrieved and targeted women. When 157 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 10: I came across in cells in twenty eighteen and I 158 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 10: initially started on their sites, and since then I've been 159 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 10: interviewing a lot of in. 160 00:08:59,120 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: Cels by public. 161 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 10: A lot of articles have brief local, state, and federal 162 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 10: agencies about it. Doctor Daily continues with their thoughts on 163 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 10: in cells dating and how early expectations around love can 164 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 10: become damaging when they go unmet. I think men and 165 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 10: women alike are told from a very young age that 166 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 10: when you grow up, you'll meet somebody, you'll get married. 167 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 10: I think that's typically been viewed as a woman's stereotype, right, 168 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 10: that we look forward to our wedding day. But I 169 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 10: think wanting to be paired and be loved is a 170 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 10: natural human response, and when that doesn't happen, you're missing 171 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 10: major milestones in your life. 172 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: Connor continues reading excerpts from INSUL forums. Even in the 173 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: language they use, you can hear how missing key life 174 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: milestones could lead to a kind of arrested development, a 175 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: more adolescent way of expressing themselves. 176 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 5: Well, then you also see people sort of trying to 177 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 5: control their urges, and one of the threads I came 178 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 5: across was was entitled thinking about sex all the time 179 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 5: as a normy faggot trait, And then you sort of 180 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 5: see them as they try to push back and not 181 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 5: engage with women and not engage with their sexual desires. 182 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 5: That then they also attacking themselves and people who have 183 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 5: relationships and sex. 184 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 3: And then it looks back to I don't even want 185 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 3: to be a part. 186 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 5: Of those groups and societies, but they also do want 187 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,359 Speaker 5: to be a part of those groups and societies. 188 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 189 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: a moment. Doctor Michael Kimmel is a professor emeritus of 190 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: sociology and Studies at Stonybrook University in New York. He's 191 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: written extensively about masculinity, and his books include Manhood in America, Guyland, 192 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: and Angry White Men. The last one explores why so 193 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: many American men feel angry and how that frustration connects 194 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: to in cell culture and the challenges they face in 195 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: dating and relationships. 196 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 4: They're now starting to think, well, what's wrong? Why have 197 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 4: I not been able to do that? Now? Prior to 198 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 4: the year, say, two thousand, these guys would have been 199 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 4: sitting alone miserable going to a bar. Perhaps they're the 200 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 4: guys who would have been yelling at the walls of 201 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 4: a subway station at two in the morning. But now 202 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,719 Speaker 4: there's social media, now there's the Internet, and instead of 203 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 4: yelling in the abandoned subway station, they yell on the internet. 204 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,719 Speaker 4: And some other guy comes along and go, oh, yeah, man, 205 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 4: I feel your pain. I think this. You know. The 206 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 4: reason is because those women they I will refrain from 207 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 4: using the kind of words that they would use. Those 208 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 4: women just won't let you get any It's their fault. 209 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 4: So now you have something that was missing twenty five 210 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 4: years ago, and what was missing with social support, and 211 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 4: it's social support from other men for this strange idea 212 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 4: that I am not getting what I'm entitled to, and 213 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 4: it's their fault. 214 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: Doctor Kimmel explains what contributed to the emergence of inceel 215 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: identity and the sense of entitlement that often goes along 216 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: with it. 217 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 4: It's a collision of two phenomena. One is the fact 218 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 4: that girl power and women are far more sexually aware, 219 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 4: agentic out there in the public sphere. They're not quiet, 220 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 4: they're not demure, They're loud and proud and it's fantastic. 221 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 4: They've entered every workplace arena. And so women's presence, women's sexuality, 222 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 4: women's ownership of their sexuality, means that women know that 223 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 4: they can like sex and want it. Now, that's one thing. 224 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 4: The other piece is the dominant emotional experience of in 225 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 4: cells is what I call aggrieved entitlement. And let me 226 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 4: look at each of those words, because I think that 227 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 4: the idea of the intell idea, the founding ideology, is entitlement. 228 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Kimmel shares an experience that first sparked his thinking 229 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: of aggrieved entitlement. He was on a TV talk show 230 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: opposite four wet men who believed that they were the 231 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: victims of reverse discrimination in the workplace. They shared stories 232 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: about how they were qualified for jobs they didn't get, 233 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: and doctor Kimmel was brought on to respond to them. 234 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 4: The title of this particular episode of the show was 235 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 4: a quote from one of the men, a black woman 236 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 4: stole my job. So when it was my turn to speak, 237 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 4: I just said, I have one question for you guys 238 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 4: about this, and it's about the title of the show, 239 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 4: A black woman stole my job. Actually, I want to 240 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 4: know about the word my where did you get the 241 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 4: idea it was your job? Why isn't the title a 242 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 4: black woman got the job or a black woman got 243 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 4: a job. Because without confronting men's sense of entitlement, will 244 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 4: never understand why so many men believe that gender equality 245 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 4: is a zero sum game and that if women, women 246 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 4: are going to lose. Now, that's what entitlement sounds like. I, 247 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 4: as a man, was in a benign sort of way. 248 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 4: I was raised to believe that one day I will 249 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 4: fall in love, get married, and have children, and that 250 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 4: sort of includes having sex. And in a less benign way, 251 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 4: you might quote the president, you know grammed by the pussy, 252 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 4: they let you do it. You're entitled to women's bodies. 253 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 4: You're entitled to access to women's bodies. 254 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: He discusses the language many men use when describing women's 255 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: beauty and how those word choices can reinforce the idea 256 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: that women are manipulative, dangerous, or somehow out to get men. 257 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 4: Years and years ago are really really smart. Journalist wrote 258 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 4: a book called Men on Rape, and he talked about 259 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 4: how the metaphors we use to describe women's beauty, very 260 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 4: many of them are words of violence against men. She's 261 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 4: a knockout, a bombshell dressed to kill right, So we're 262 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 4: injured by women's beauty, and so men often see rape 263 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 4: as getting even, Like we're you've done a violence to 264 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 4: us just by being hot and gorgeous and accessible and 265 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 4: wearing a short skirt or whatever, so that that's an 266 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 4: injury to us. Now we're one down. We have to 267 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 4: get even, and getting even means taking what we want. 268 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 4: Did you get any did she put out? She has? 269 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 4: He wants, he gets, or he takes. That's what entitlement 270 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 4: sounds like. Sexual entitlement means you have something I want, 271 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 4: and if I want it, I'm gonna get it. And 272 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 4: that's why some of these men actually believe, for example, 273 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 4: that rape with sexual assault is really just dating by 274 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 4: another term. 275 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: Connor shares another excerpt from an in cell forum with 276 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: crime analyst Body Movin. 277 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 5: One of the ones I'm looking at right now is 278 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 5: again the threat is called if you don't have at 279 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 5: least a seven point three inch cock, no foid will ever. 280 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: Have sex with you. 281 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 5: Even if she has, that foid will never be satisfied. 282 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 5: The conversation then sort of devolves into a a whole 283 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 5: back and forth about sex, whether or not the women 284 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 5: would ever be happy. 285 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: These conversations just. 286 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 5: Go all over the place, but all of the language 287 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 5: is just pretty offensive, which goes back to what we 288 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 5: were talking about. Why they are so concerned about having 289 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 5: their true identities pop up is that they know that 290 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 5: this stuff, if it got out generally, could do damage 291 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 5: to their real world personas, their jobs, their families, their relationships. 292 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 5: Then the perception is that they just simply want to 293 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 5: live in this online space one way and live in 294 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 5: the real world another way. 295 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 6: It's almost like the real world is their mass right. 296 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 6: What I find interesting too is the transition from Stacy's 297 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 6: to foids. It really dehumanizes women. Okay, so they were 298 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 6: Stacy's in the transition to foids is interesting. It's female humanoid. 299 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 6: It really kind of depersonalizes these women. In my mind, 300 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 6: that's what I think of when I hear the term foid. 301 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 6: It's just very depersonalized, you know. It's it's almost like 302 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 6: we're not people. 303 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: Doctor David Lee is a clinical psychologist, sex therapist, and writer. 304 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: He further explains foids and how the use of that 305 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 1: term perpetuates misogyny and hatred. 306 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 11: One of the ones that I think is a little 307 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 11: sad and really really emphasizes the core misogyny here is 308 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 11: that they oftentimes in the NZEL community refer to women 309 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 11: as foid and that means female humanoid, because they don't 310 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 11: want to give them the benefit the credit of being 311 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 11: a person of being human. And I think that that 312 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 11: just really underscores how much misogyny, hatred, and fear of 313 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 11: women is driving so much of the INZEL community. 314 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: Language is important, especially when it starts getting thrown around repeatedly. 315 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: For young boys eleven, twelve, fourteen years old to ingest 316 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 1: and start using it can begin to shape young worldviews dangerously. 317 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: Here again doctor Sarah Daly, who holds a PhD in 318 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: criminal justice. She talks about the link between victimhood and violence. 319 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 10: I think if we think about in cell violence relative 320 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 10: to the number of in cels online, it's not a lot, 321 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 10: which I think we're lucky about, but I mean, any 322 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 10: act of violence is too much. But most of the 323 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 10: in cels online share this notion of victimhood and frustration 324 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 10: and loneliness. And when we look at the ones who 325 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 10: have committed violence from their manifesi festos, from their posts, 326 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 10: the ones who we've seen that have committed violence are 327 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 10: the ones who have moved all of their anger outward. 328 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 3: Right. 329 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 10: Lots of in cells view themselves as being ugly or 330 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 10: weird or not worthy, But the most infamous inzels who've 331 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 10: committed violence directed their anger outwards. It is at women, 332 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 10: it's at society, it's at everyone who bullied them. So, 333 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 10: like all the other perpetrators of mass violence, their attack 334 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 10: becomes like an act of revenge and an active strength 335 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 10: after a lifetime of being viewed as weak. 336 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: Elliott Roger is an incell who murdered six innocent people 337 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: and injured fourteen more in twenty fourteen. He left behind 338 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: a lengthy written manifesto and posted a retribution video to 339 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: YouTube before he took his own life to end the rampage. 340 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 12: All those popular kids who live such lives of hedonistic pleasure, 341 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 12: while I've had to rotten loneliness for all these years, 342 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 12: they've all looked down upon me. I'll be a god 343 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 12: exacting my retribution and all those who deserve it, And 344 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 12: you do deserve it, just for the crime of living 345 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 12: a better life than me. Oh, you popular kids, you've 346 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 12: never accepted me. Now you'll all pay for it. 347 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: Sickeningly, Roger is held up as an icon, a hero, 348 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: referred to as a literal saint by some in cels. 349 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: Doctor Daily continues referencing Roger's impact. 350 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 10: Victimhood is the common bond with in cells. As much 351 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 10: as he wants to be a very alpha male in 352 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 10: this right saying that women should be caged in things, 353 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 10: I think he wants to be seen as a victim, 354 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 10: and so in cells that we do view him in 355 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 10: this way. Understand this lifetime of hurt and this lack 356 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 10: of friendship. And unfortunately, this is a part of American 357 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 10: culture that when you are not viewed as a strong man, 358 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 10: a gun and killing people is viewed as an act 359 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 10: of strength. We as a society no better. But for 360 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 10: those people who are homicidal, violent, this is an active 361 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 10: of revenge. And if we look at societally, you know 362 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 10: strong men, we look at men are who are violent 363 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 10: action movies, Rambo, right, take your pick. So this is 364 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 10: kind of an act of violent masculinity. 365 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: Connor and Body discuss a final thread from the insull 366 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: forums that illuminates the profound self loathing common and in 367 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: cell communities and what that can lead to. 368 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 5: There's a thread that says, are you also complete genetic 369 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 5: trash with no redeeming qualities? I have no self worth, 370 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 5: I have no value to society. 371 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 6: You know. 372 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 5: I spoke to one person who said, I try to 373 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 5: stay off of these websites. It's because they bring me down. 374 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 5: They make me feel worse, they make me hate women more, 375 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 5: But they also make me hate myself more as well. 376 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 6: Right, because it's feeding, right, it's like self sustaining hatred. 377 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 6: It's feeding that negative energy. 378 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean the genetic trash comment. It just shows 379 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 5: a complete lack of self worth on their side, and 380 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 5: so you see them sort of attacking themselves but then 381 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 5: taking that anger and frustration about themselves and their self 382 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 5: worth out on women as well. 383 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 6: Viewing it from the outside, it's almost like they like 384 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 6: this self hatred and they want to wallow in it. 385 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 3: Exactly exactly. It's victimhood too. 386 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 6: I think victimhood is a big talking point when it 387 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 6: comes to in cells. They want to be the victim. 388 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 6: It's real easy to say I'm not successful and like 389 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 6: because I'm a victim instead of actually trying and failing 390 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 6: and trying and failing and trying and succeeding. Right, you 391 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 6: have to keep trying, and it's so much easier to 392 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 6: sit back in your computer chair and be like, it's 393 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 6: none of this is my fault. 394 00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 3: I'm the victim. 395 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 5: To that point point, there were discussions on Facebook and 396 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,719 Speaker 5: read it about people trying to better themselves, and you 397 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 5: saw self described in cells as offering advice and support 398 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 5: in that effort. I can't find any of that type 399 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 5: of support and advice on insul is. It is all 400 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 5: just vitriolic hatred. 401 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 402 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: a moment. Doctor David Lay sheds light on how the 403 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: victimhood mentality can evolve from self pity to hostility. 404 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 11: These communities. They have flavors of what philosophers called gnosticism, 405 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 11: where they promote the idea that they and they alone 406 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 11: hold secret knowledge. Gnosticism is a real core philosophical principle 407 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 11: under the blue pill red pill kind of concept. But 408 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 11: what's fascinating is that rather than this secret knowledge making 409 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 11: these in cells more powerful or healthier, instead the secret 410 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 11: knowledge that they are being fed is that they are 411 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 11: victims and that their value in the community comes from 412 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 11: acknowledging this victimhood. One of the things that has been 413 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 11: fascinating over the past couple of years is that we've 414 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 11: now identified that there are people who use victimhood identity 415 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 11: as a manipulative tool to manipulate others. We see it 416 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 11: a lot online and many of the people that embrace 417 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 11: this victimhood identity have what we call the dark triad 418 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 11: personality characteristics. These are any social traits of not following 419 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 11: the rules and not having empathy for other people, narcissism, 420 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 11: viewing yourself as being particularly special, and machiavelianism, being manipulative 421 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 11: towards others. And as people in those dark Triad characteristics 422 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 11: become more vocal in these online communities and become more powerful, 423 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 11: they encourage and promote violence as an answer and a 424 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 11: response to that victimhood. So they use the victimhood identity 425 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 11: and then violence to manipulate and whip up these folks 426 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 11: in dangerous and unhealthy ways. We've seen it in in 427 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 11: cell communities where mann are encouraged towards greater misogyny, violent 428 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 11: hatred towards women, and even to scientists and researchers like 429 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 11: me who challenge their beliefs. 430 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: Here again, doctor Michael Kimmel, who breaks down the manosphere 431 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: and the largely toxic ideas it's spreading widely to men 432 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: and boys in a continual outpouring on social media. 433 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 4: The manosphere is a fairly substantial section of the Internet. 434 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 4: That is, you know, the overall picture, the Internet is 435 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 4: a marvel. 436 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 12: You know. 437 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 4: If you have a rare disease, you can put out 438 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 4: a call and suddenly two hundred people from all over 439 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 4: the world will say, oh, I have the same condition. 440 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 4: It's amazing you have an instant support group. But just 441 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 4: as it's miraculous in that way, it also provides support 442 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 4: for all manner of crazy ideas, all manner of misinformation disinformation. 443 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 4: One of the more pernicious parts of that is to 444 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 4: look for others to blame. If you're unhappy, it must 445 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 4: be somebody else's fault, and there are hundreds of thousands 446 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 4: of people who will tell you whose fault it is 447 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 4: besides yours. Now, the manisphere is a particularly gendered space 448 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 4: where men are encouraging each other, complaining to each other, 449 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 4: offering support to each other true, but also finding people 450 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 4: that they can blame for their situation. 451 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: Luis is a self identifying in cel who speaks with 452 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: us about how men, especially young men are being lured 453 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: into the manosphere. They feel hopeless, reach out for solace 454 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: and find community, but too often that path leads to 455 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: idolizing so called alpha males, like misogynist Andrew Tate. Tate 456 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: is a former MMA fighter who has been charged with rape, 457 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: human trafficking, and forming an organized criminal group to sexually 458 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: exploit women. Tate also sells dating schemes tied to pick 459 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: up artistry to men insecure about their status and masculinity. 460 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: He has more than ten million followers on x alone. 461 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 2: Here's Luis insults were former pickup artists, which is very interesting. 462 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 2: There's actually research on that on pickup artist forums. When 463 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: Internet traffic and user bases were going down. On insul forums, 464 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: that were eight that were going up. So there's a 465 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 2: pickup artist to insul pipeline. So you can imagine like 466 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 2: a young man who's like struggling with women and goes 467 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: into pickup artistry and all that bullshit they do, all 468 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 2: those like stupid manipulative tactics that they use and work 469 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: and then boom they become an insul. People call Andrew 470 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 2: Tate an inso like insos hate all those I hate 471 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,959 Speaker 2: those people. Those people suck. So that's one misconception that 472 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: it's not a guy who hates women. Look, I hate 473 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: to say this, there's plenty of guys out there who 474 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 2: hate women and they do just fine. You know, that's 475 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: just the unfortunate reality. Okay, we don't live in some 476 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: just world, and there are plenty of guys who don't 477 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: hate women and their virgins. 478 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: We've heard how isolation and victimhood can grow into violence, 479 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: loneliness into identity, and resentment into community. This echo chamber 480 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: is only getting louder. Next time, we'll step into the 481 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: broader world of the manosphere, from online influencers to self 482 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,239 Speaker 1: proclaimed alpha males. We'll look at how their messages are 483 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 1: reaching literally hundreds of millions of men and boys, and 484 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: what that means for the rest of us. For more 485 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on 486 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: Instagram at kat on Score Studios. In Cells is produced 487 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Additional 488 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by Jeff 489 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: tooi music by Vanicore Studios. In Cells is a production 490 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: of Kat's Studios and iHeart Radio. For more podcasts like this, 491 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen 492 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.