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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: The film is really a look at the suffering that

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Speaker 2: Michael went through. How does this happen in the transformation

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Speaker 2: that he had. It's about an individual undergoing twenty five

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Speaker 2: years of suffering and finally getting vindicated.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is

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Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories.

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Speaker 2: My name is Jason Jasn Whaling w e h LNG.

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Speaker 1: If you listened to tenfold More Wicket, you might recognize

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Speaker 1: Jason's name in the credits. He's one of my producers

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Speaker 1: and I love working with him because he is a

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Speaker 1: really amazing storyteller. This is his story about the making

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Speaker 1: of a film called An Unreal Dream. The Michael Morton Story.

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Speaker 1: It aired on CNN in twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 2: I think that this is a story of a miscarriage

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Speaker 2: of justice. People's desire to want to be able to

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Speaker 2: put all the pieces together to make sense of horrific

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Speaker 2: things that happen. I think as a team working on

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Speaker 2: this story, we wrestled with that desire in ourselves. Law

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Speaker 2: enforcement super important, but they really wanted to solve this,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of little pieces fell away so intentionally,

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Speaker 2: some probably by accident, and created a horrific miscarriage of justice.

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Speaker 1: Where does Michael Morton's story start? What's the most natural

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Speaker 1: start here?

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Speaker 2: Michael Morton lived in North Austin and was thirty two

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Speaker 2: years old back in nineteen eighty six. He had a

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Speaker 2: three year old son and a wife named Christine. His

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Speaker 2: son's name was Eric. He worked, she worked. Eric had

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Speaker 2: heart problems. They had spent the first few years of

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Speaker 2: his life really trying to get Eric healthy. I think

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Speaker 2: it might have created some family strife. But then one

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Speaker 2: day Michael Morton went to work, got up before everyone

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Speaker 2: was awake, leaving Christine and Eric there. He came home

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Speaker 2: to find police everywhere and she had been bludgeoned in

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Speaker 2: her bed and covered with suitcases. They had found her

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Speaker 2: because Eric, the three year old, had been in the

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Speaker 2: front yard crying with his diaper full, and the neighbor

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Speaker 2: noticed it and first just like took him over to

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Speaker 2: her house and then realized, you know, no one was

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Speaker 2: ever coming, and so she went back in and found

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Speaker 2: Christine in the bed, and that kind of set off

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Speaker 2: this whole chain of events.

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Speaker 1: In the film, he talks about the beginning of this night.

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Speaker 1: It's his birthday, right.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting is that coming out of all the stress

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Speaker 2: they'd had early and his young son's life, things had

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Speaker 2: finally started to feel like they were resolved. They went

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Speaker 2: out to dinner for Michael's birthday. There was a sense

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Speaker 2: that things were going well for the first time in

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Speaker 2: a long time. And when they got home, Michael tells

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Speaker 2: this story, but I think he believed that that they

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Speaker 2: were going to, you know, celebrate the birthday in the

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Speaker 2: bedroom as well, and Christine fell asleep.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, she's a parent, and it's a late night.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, like that's what and they've been drinking.

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Speaker 2: Maybe she just dozed off, But Michael wrote her a

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Speaker 2: note about it, and it's an interesting note. I can't

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Speaker 2: quote it verbatim, but it basically says, you made me

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Speaker 2: feel like nothing, you know, you made me feel alone.

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Speaker 2: And he left it on the bathroom counter, propped up

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Speaker 2: so that she would see it the next morning when

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Speaker 2: she woke up, because Michael got up before and went

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Speaker 2: to work. That note is right there on the counter

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Speaker 2: waiting the next day when the investigators come, and that

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Speaker 2: certainly might have helped set them down this path, but

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Speaker 2: they wanted to go down it too.

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Speaker 1: So he wakes up early the next day. She's asleep.

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Speaker 1: He gets dressed and walks out the door, and Eric's

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Speaker 1: in another room in his bedroom, asleep. And that is

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Speaker 1: the last time he sees Christina alive.

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Speaker 3: Right right?

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Speaker 1: What is the next thing that happens with Michael Morton?

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Speaker 2: He works his day and when he comes home he

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Speaker 2: finds the yard with police in the house, investigators there.

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Speaker 2: He wants to know what happened. They wouldn't let him

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Speaker 2: see Christine's body. He I think now thinks that they

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Speaker 2: were immediately suspecting him, but point he didn't think that.

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Speaker 2: He was just devastated about Christine. The investigators immediately started

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Speaker 2: digging in. There was a number of them involved. There

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Speaker 2: was a lead investigator named Don Wood, the sheriff at

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Speaker 2: the time in Williamson County. And it's interesting because this

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Speaker 2: is the county I grew up in as well, So

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Speaker 2: this was the sheriff when I was a young guy.

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Speaker 3: I remember him. His name was Jim Boutwell.

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Speaker 2: They immediately went about investigating it, and Michael was left

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Speaker 2: alone with Eric for a period of a few weeks,

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Speaker 2: just trying to raise his three year old son on

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Speaker 2: his own and deal with the grief that came from

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Speaker 2: the shock of finding somebody had come into your house.

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Speaker 3: There's blood spatters all over the bedroom. Now what's the scene?

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Speaker 2: Like she's laying in bed, there's suitcases piled on top

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Speaker 2: of her. Clear that someone's ransacked and looked looked for things.

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Speaker 2: And the photos are you know, the crime scene photos

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Speaker 2: are like looking at the patterns of the blood spatters

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Speaker 2: to try to say what happened?

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Speaker 1: Are there signs of a sexual assault? Did police find anything?

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure.

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Speaker 2: They suggested that there was, but because they were always

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Speaker 2: talking about Michael. Later, when they went and checked for DNA,

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Speaker 2: there was nothing there, so they were trying to suggest

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Speaker 2: that perhaps Michael had assaulted her.

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Speaker 1: When investigators walk into the scene, there's a woman laying

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Speaker 1: in the bed, there's blood everywhere, there's a toddler right

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Speaker 1: wandering around in his diaper in the front yard who

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Speaker 1: has been clearly unintended to for quite a long time,

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Speaker 1: and there's no husband. So does it make sense that

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Speaker 1: he would be the prime suspect.

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Speaker 2: It does make sense that he'd be the prime suspect,

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Speaker 2: you know. I remember reading statistics that most of the

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Speaker 2: time when there's a crime like this, someone who knows

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Speaker 2: them well did.

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Speaker 3: It inner circle?

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Speaker 2: Yes, And in this particular case, I think one of

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Speaker 2: the things that's so fascinating is that the sheriff who

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Speaker 2: was overseeing this investigation had been previously shamed for going

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Speaker 2: too far into believing in bigger conspiracies. I can explain

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Speaker 2: more about that, but I think he wanted it to

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Speaker 2: be the normal thing. Most times someone gets killed, it's

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Speaker 2: someone in the inner circle. Here's the husband. He left

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Speaker 2: a note he was mad about his birthday. Easy pasy

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Speaker 2: motives right there. It's right there. He saw it right away.

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Speaker 2: He didn't get enough sex on his birthday. He killed her,

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Speaker 2: left her all day. So growing up this in Georgetown,

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Speaker 2: went the county seat in Williamson County. There was a

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Speaker 2: prisoner there, Henry Lee Lucas, and he stayed in the jail.

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Speaker 2: And I remember as a young boy, everybody was.

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Speaker 3: Like, Oh, Henry Lee Lucas is in the jail, look out,

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Speaker 3: he's going to get out. He's going to get us.

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Speaker 3: That was something that we always talked about. Very well

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Speaker 3: known serial killer.

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Speaker 2: There are stories out there that Henry Lee Lucas killed

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Speaker 2: more than three hundred people. He confessed to the murders

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Speaker 2: of more than three hundred people to Sheriff Jim Boutwell.

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Speaker 2: But it turns out what happened is Jim Boutwell brought

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Speaker 2: him in, started talking to him, pulled him into a

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Speaker 2: separate nicer area, started interviewing Henry Lee Lucas, and Henry

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Speaker 2: Lee Lucas confessed to murder after murder after murder. In fact,

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Speaker 2: it turns out that the murder he was in jail

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Speaker 2: four called the Orange Sox murder. Even during the trial

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Speaker 2: for that, his lawyers said oh no, here's evidence that

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Speaker 2: he was in Florida at the time of this murder.

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Speaker 3: They still convicted him.

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Speaker 2: So at one point, the legend of Henry Lee Lucas

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Speaker 2: was that he'd killed three hundred people, and Jim Boutwell

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Speaker 2: is the one who elicited that legend from him. And

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Speaker 2: then when it came out that all that stuff was

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Speaker 2: kind of made up, not all of it. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: he killed someone. I don't know the exact extent of it.

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Speaker 2: It was nowhere near that Jim Boutwell was embarrassed. He

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Speaker 2: probably resigned. I never heard him say this, but I'm

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Speaker 2: sure he told himself, I'm not doing that again. I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to go out on a limb. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to go for what's right in front of my face.

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Speaker 2: And so when this case came up, it was only

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Speaker 2: two years later after this initial stuff had come out.

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Speaker 2: Michael Morton did it. It's all right there, I don't

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Speaker 2: have to look at anything else.

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Speaker 1: Super simple case closed. Husband did it. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: think it makes sense. You have a motive, right, They

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Speaker 1: didn't find a murder weapon at that point.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't he have an alibi?

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Speaker 2: Michael Mortin would tell you, yes, I was definitely at

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Speaker 2: work because when he left she was asleep in the bed.

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Speaker 2: But according to the officers, it was a little more

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Speaker 2: gray because she, in theory, could have been killed anytime

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Speaker 2: from the time they were at the restaurant the night

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Speaker 2: before and when she was found and Michael was there overnight.

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Speaker 1: So when Michael sees and here's what happens, does he

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Speaker 1: collapse in grief when he finds out his wife has

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Speaker 1: been murdered.

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Speaker 2: Having watched a lot of hours of him talking and

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Speaker 2: hearing the stories about him, I can imagine he would

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Speaker 2: have reacted somewhat stoically. Michael was a quiet person. He

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Speaker 2: was known in the courtroom to not show emotion. I

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Speaker 2: know he was hurt inside. I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: his immediate worry seems to have been directed at Eric,

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Speaker 2: his son. Yeah, just trying to make sure that to

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Speaker 2: keep like now, I got to do this. But he's

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Speaker 2: a guy who seems to try to keep his mind busy.

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Speaker 2: I got to do this and put one foot in

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Speaker 2: front of the other.

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Speaker 1: At what point is he arrested?

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Speaker 3: Do we know?

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Speaker 2: It was relatively quick and it was a surprise, and

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Speaker 2: I remember they showed up. The most striking thing about

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Speaker 2: the story of him being arrested. They show up and

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Speaker 2: we're taking Eric, and we're taking you. But he describes

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Speaker 2: the moment of being separated from Eric, and I think

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Speaker 2: from that point on he's alone.

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Speaker 3: He's imprisoned. Eric goes to live with Christine's mother.

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Speaker 1: Do Christine's parents believe all of this that their son

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Speaker 1: in law is capable.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that Christine's parents believed Michael did this.

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Speaker 2: I think they had seen him with her and with

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Speaker 2: Eric and knew him well. And in fact, Christine's mother

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Speaker 2: did try to help, calling the officers who are investigating,

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Speaker 2: giving them information that could try to be helpful, trying

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Speaker 2: to help Michael get off. Now that's something that we

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Speaker 2: didn't learn about for a long time. That's something that

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Speaker 2: was withheld. But if she's trying to actively give help

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Speaker 2: to Michael behind the scenes, clearly she doesn't think he

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Speaker 2: did it. And there's a district attorney named Ken Anderson,

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Speaker 2: and they brought in a jury. Michael got a lawyer

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Speaker 2: shortly after he was arrested, and his lawyer's name was

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Speaker 2: Bill Allison. His original lawyer, Bill Allison's an Austin attorney

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Speaker 2: who's he works with the Innocent's Project.

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Speaker 1: That he worked with my father. So, Bill Allison and

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Speaker 1: David Shepherd, who people might have heard in season three

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Speaker 1: of tenfold More Wicked, is a defense attorney. Bill Allison,

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Speaker 1: David Shepherd, and my father started the Actual Innocence Clinic

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Speaker 1: at ut So. I've known Bill Allison my entire life.

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Speaker 1: So when he popped up in your film with his

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Speaker 1: massive mustache in the eighties, I was really thrilled to

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Speaker 1: see him, because he was quite a good attorney. What

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Speaker 1: was Bill's reaction to this whole case?

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Speaker 2: To hear Bill tell it, he sensed right away that

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Speaker 2: Michael was innocent, and I think that sense probably grew

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Speaker 2: over the years. I think Bill Allison had a tough

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Speaker 2: case to try. It turns out that going up against

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Speaker 2: a hot shot district attorney with the hot shot sheriff

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Speaker 2: can be difficult. They presented what appeared to be a

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Speaker 2: really good case. They brought up evidence. They used a

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Speaker 2: technique where you look at the contents of the stumb

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Speaker 2: and about how digested it is to make a theory

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Speaker 2: on at what time the.

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Speaker 3: Death happened estimated time of death.

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Speaker 2: They used that to say, presumably Christine had been killed

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the night. So therefore Michael's alibia

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Speaker 2: being at work falls apart.

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Speaker 1: And this is certainly not an exact science, and it

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Speaker 1: definitely was not in the mid to late eighties. So

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Speaker 1: they're combining a few different things that are not wholly

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Speaker 1: accurate even putting them together. So there's the note that

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Speaker 1: is sort of a loose motive, and then they've got

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Speaker 1: a kind of shaky alibi even though he was at work.

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Speaker 1: They're able to sort of slide back and forth wherever

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Speaker 1: they want the time of death based on this really

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Speaker 1: rough estimate.

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Speaker 2: I've heard that called junk science numerous times by other

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Speaker 2: people over the years because it's really loose. It's not

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Speaker 2: a fine art, and it definitely wasn't then. But they

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Speaker 2: had a few things in their favor. They had that

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Speaker 2: that helped put Michael at the potential scene. They had

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Speaker 2: the note. They had Michael himself. When he took the stand,

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Speaker 2: he didn't show emotion. They asked him about his sex

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Speaker 2: life with her. Did you complain to other people that

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Speaker 2: she didn't have enough sex with you? Yes, he was

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Speaker 2: flat and emotionless. That didn't help him as they painted

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Speaker 2: the story of this cold killer. The other big thing

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Speaker 2: is that there was no other suspect.

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Speaker 3: Who else was it right?

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Speaker 2: And without another suspect. This is one of the things

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Speaker 2: that really struck me. Bill Ellison said, they want to

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Speaker 2: be able to solve the case, and one of the

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Speaker 2: jurors even says this, I wanted to make sure there

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Speaker 2: was no killer out there. Given enough evidence to kind

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Speaker 2: of suggest it. They convicted him and it wasn't that difficult.

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Speaker 2: Apparently they only deliberated a couple hours. They felt very

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Speaker 2: confident that he'd done it. They got to go home

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Speaker 2: resting easy because they took a murderer off the street.

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Speaker 2: And that's a desire that Jim Boutwell had. It's a

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Speaker 2: desire that the jury had. I think all of us have.

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Speaker 2: I had it even working on the material. This makes

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Speaker 2: the most sense. It's got to be him, otherwise there's

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Speaker 2: no answer, and we have to be stuck in a

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Speaker 2: mystery thinking there's a murderer out there who's going to

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Speaker 2: come bludge in me tonight.

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Speaker 1: And I'll tell you the hidden thing that I'm not

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Speaker 1: really sure got that much attention in the film. That

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Speaker 1: strikes me, being someone who wrote a book about forensics,

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Speaker 1: is that a lot of this evidence. The only scene

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Speaker 1: to me forensic evidence in this case was this estimation

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Speaker 1: of the time of death. If you tell a jury

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Speaker 1: this is when this happened, and Michael is there because

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Speaker 1: he hasn't gone to work, what other choice do you

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Speaker 1: have as a jury, But then to say, Okay, no

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Speaker 1: one else was there. Michael was there. He says he

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Speaker 1: was there the contents of her stomach for indicating that

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Speaker 1: that's where she was alive and she was killed. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what other choice you have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Anything that suggested something else was not presented to them.

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Speaker 1: When I've talked to Bill about this, he said that

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Speaker 1: Michael was a terrible client to have for him because

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Speaker 1: he was truly innocent and he was not at all helpful.

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Speaker 1: He literally couldn't say what happened because he wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: The other thing I wanted to know from Bill that

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Speaker 1: I've never gotten to ask him, is if he regrets

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure he does putting Michael Morton on the stand,

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Speaker 1: because he seems like a terrible witness. Somebody who stoic

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Speaker 1: like that isn't going to connect. I've seen Kenny Anderson

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Speaker 1: present in trials other than this trial. I've seen footage

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Speaker 1: of it. He is dynamic. I don't think you could

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Speaker 1: put someone as dynamic as Ken Anderson up against somebody

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Speaker 1: like Michael Morton on the stand who was very stoic.

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Speaker 2: No right, Ken Anderson gave quite a performance. He apparently

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Speaker 2: cried as he was wrapping up the case, which is great.

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Speaker 2: I mean one of the other lawyers who comes up

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Speaker 2: later in the story cries on Q two.

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Speaker 3: I think the courtroom is a showroom.

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Speaker 2: It's clear lawyers give great interviews and they're putting on

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Speaker 2: a performance when they're there. And Ken Anderson scripted this

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Speaker 2: performance with Jim Boutwell as one of his stars, and

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Speaker 2: they did leave out one of the key performers, Don Wood,

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Speaker 2: for a reason we can get into when you're ready.

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Speaker 2: But I find it interesting that they scripted it very well,

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Speaker 2: and they got the conviction they wanted and Michael didn't

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Speaker 2: stand really.

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Speaker 1: A chance, So they leave out one of the most

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Speaker 1: important investigators, Don Wood. He is not on the witness list,

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Speaker 1: and the attorneys are surprised by this. We'll get to

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Speaker 1: that in a little bit. The jury comes back and

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Speaker 1: Michael Morton is convicted of murder, and he is probably

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Speaker 1: for the first time visibly shocked.

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Speaker 3: I'm assuming yeah, he was shocked.

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Speaker 2: He really thought he was going to get off to him,

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Speaker 2: there was no way he was going to get like

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Speaker 2: all they had is this one piece of random, like

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Speaker 2: kind of squishy evidence. And he doesn't think he's got

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Speaker 2: a problem with stoicism. He's just a man who's grieving

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Speaker 2: in his own way. I think it shocked him. I

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Speaker 2: think he shocked his parents, who were both alive at

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Speaker 2: that point, and shocked a lot of people involved, probably

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Speaker 2: even Christine's parents. I don't recall exactly what they're but

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Speaker 2: I think everybody was shocked. But I think once that

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Speaker 2: conviction came through, that was the beginning of the process

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Speaker 2: for anyone who had believed him to be innocent to

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Speaker 2: start to go like, oh, maybe maybe he did do it.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's what happens to Christine's family over

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Speaker 2: the next years. Michael's parents seemed to spend the entire

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Speaker 2: time trying to fight this.

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Speaker 1: Christine's parents began to have doubts. As we find out

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Speaker 1: later on, he is convicted. He's sentenced to life in prison, right,

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Speaker 1: not the death penalty. He went to a Texas facility. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what is his experience in prison like.

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Speaker 2: As he describes it, there was so much time for introspection,

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Speaker 2: reliving everything over and over. How did I get hear?

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Speaker 2: What's going on? All the sounds? You can't sleep right,

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Speaker 2: there's crashing cell doors all the time. He described it

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Speaker 2: as really unsettling for him and he over a period

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Speaker 2: of years.

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Speaker 3: The overall trajectory is that.

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Speaker 2: He bought himed out feeling like this is it, Like

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Speaker 2: I'm never getting out of here.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be here for the rest of my life.

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Speaker 3: He did make some friends.

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Speaker 2: One interesting thing is he said that he befriended the

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Speaker 2: murderers more than some of the other criminals.

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Speaker 3: With them, I think you kind of knew where you stood.

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Speaker 2: They weren't going to murder him, probably because he wasn't

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Speaker 2: doing anything to them.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was interesting too. He said, they're not cheats,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to steal from you.

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Speaker 3: And they're not going to kind.

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Speaker 1: What you get is what you get.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, then they're not a threat to him here. They're

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Speaker 2: a threat to someone in their own personal sphere. But

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Speaker 2: where the thieves and the other types of criminals where

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Speaker 2: there might try to take something from you or get

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Speaker 2: something from you. Or apparently one thing that happens. They

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Speaker 2: send letters to your family members saying like send me

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Speaker 2: Michael said, to send me money. And here he is

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Speaker 2: a guy who'd been living a very upstanding life suddenly

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Speaker 2: living amongst that and trying to be normal. He wasn't religious.

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Speaker 2: He does describe at the middle of this, at his

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Speaker 2: low point, it's very important to him that he had

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Speaker 2: kind of a religious epiphany, a moment where he cried

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Speaker 2: out to God for help and got no answer for

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Speaker 2: a period of time, but then had this moment that

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Speaker 2: is really huge to him where he feels like God

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Speaker 2: answered him and showed him that he was cared for.

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Speaker 2: That seems to have been a turning point for him.

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Speaker 2: From that period on, he read and read and studied

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Speaker 2: and worked and just worked on himself.

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Speaker 3: When's the school too, I think, yeah, he did.

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Speaker 2: He did at least a degree, maybe more than one.

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Speaker 2: He decided to work on himself. But I do think

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Speaker 2: that he chose to improve himself. I think he saw

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Speaker 2: that there are things with all that reflection he saw

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Speaker 2: in himself, there are things I could do to be better.

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Speaker 2: All of that reflection ended up I think with him

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Speaker 2: feeling like he had some pretty strong direction for what

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Speaker 2: he wanted to do. One was fight to find a

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Speaker 2: way to get out, probably to reconnect with his family.

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Speaker 2: Michael ends up being in there throughout Eric's you know,

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Speaker 2: from the time he's three until Eric's almost thirty. And

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Speaker 2: at first the court ordered that Eric would come visit

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Speaker 2: at regular intervals. I don't remember what the interval was.

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Speaker 2: Either Christine's mother or Christine's sister, one of them would

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Speaker 2: bring Eric to the prison so that Michael could have

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Speaker 2: a visit with him. As Eric began to be a teenager,

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Speaker 2: and why am I visiting this guy? You know, the

402
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Speaker 2: stories he's hearing is his dad killed his mom? Why

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Speaker 2: am I visiting this?

404
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Speaker 1: And he's embarrassed too, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He's embarrassed about it. He eventually asked for them to

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Speaker 2: stop the visits, and Michael had to grant that permission

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Speaker 2: and did because he didn't want to see his son

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Speaker 2: and his son didn't want to see him. I think

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Speaker 2: that's probably one of the things that led to that

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Speaker 2: devastating low point for him. Up until that point, he's

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Speaker 2: still thinking about his son and those visits, and then

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Speaker 2: that's cut off and he didn't speak to his son

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Speaker 2: for years, and I find that really, really the biggest

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Speaker 2: loss of this whole story is that relationship.

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Speaker 1: I worked on a story about a different man who

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Speaker 1: was exonerated, who was in prison for twelve years out

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Speaker 1: of Dallas for a murder he didn't commit, and he

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Speaker 1: had a girlfriend and they were going to get engaged

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Speaker 1: and they were going to have children. That was his goal,

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Speaker 1: and then he's arrested and put into prison for twelve years.

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Speaker 1: When he was exonerated, he walked into the courtroom. The girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: who he had not dated since he went in was

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Speaker 1: there with a little girl who was her child with

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Speaker 1: another man, and he said, that's when it hit him.

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Speaker 1: He said, that is supposed to be my kid, and

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Speaker 1: that's what I've lost. I didn't do anything wrong, That's

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Speaker 1: what I've lost. And I often think about that with

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Speaker 1: the Michael Moore story, the amount of loss that he had.

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Speaker 1: I remember him saying that he was devastated when Eric

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Speaker 1: dropped his last name and became adopted by Christine's family

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Speaker 1: and how difficult that was, and that he could see

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Speaker 1: the anger in Christine's family when they would bring Eric.

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Speaker 4: He could just feel that they believed that this is

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Speaker 4: what happened even if they had doubts. He's not there

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Speaker 4: to help. Why do we have to add this extra

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Speaker 4: trip on? All the little inconveniences add up. He didn't

437
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Speaker 4: do it, but over the years you can start to

438
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 4: be mad at him anyway.

439
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 1: Right, Michael has embraced religion, he has become educated, he

440
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,200
Speaker 1: has made friends, albeit with murderers, but he's made friends.

441
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 1: He has this festering anger. Who do we think this

442
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,680
Speaker 1: is directed towards.

443
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 2: If he's angry, it's at the prosecutors who did this

444
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,280
Speaker 2: to him. Ken Anderson, you thought everything was safe and

445
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 2: then this guy gets up there and puts on this

446
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,920
Speaker 2: performance that you don't have any you don't believe is

447
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,280
Speaker 2: going to work at all, and it's just pulls the rug.

448
00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:56,119
Speaker 3: Out from endo your life.

449
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:57,960
Speaker 2: I don't know if Ken was blind to this one.

450
00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 2: When you really dig in and you start to see

451
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,680
Speaker 2: what they avoided bringing into the courtroom, you can't help

452
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,200
Speaker 2: but think that there was. There's something intentional, watching each

453
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,439
Speaker 2: other's back, crafting the story together. Anyway, there's just not

454
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,360
Speaker 2: going to worry. There's something slightly there's just something wrong

455
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,159
Speaker 2: with it. There's something wrong with it. I want law

456
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 2: enforcement to be able to do a great job. You

457
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,120
Speaker 2: want them to be able to do a great job,

458
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 2: but you also want there to be a chance for

459
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,960
Speaker 2: the innocent man to win, and he didn't have that.

460
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 1: When do things turn for him? When he's in prison?

461
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:23,880
Speaker 1: Who gets involved? What happens?

462
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 2: Bill Allison remains his attorney for years. Over the years,

463
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 2: Bill gets more and more frustrated by the case. I

464
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,200
Speaker 2: think he's been trying to help Michael for years and

465
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 2: nothing's sticking. He put in a call to the Innocence

466
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 2: Project out of New York, Barry Shack.

467
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,399
Speaker 1: Of o Ja Simpson fame. If anybody has seen o

468
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 1: Jasimpson trial, he represented o Ja Simpson.

469
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the Innocence Project is a big deal. They've

470
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 2: gotten hundreds of people out of prison who were in

471
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,640
Speaker 2: prison wrongfully over the years. And I think he did

472
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 2: that as a kind of a last ditch. I don't

473
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 2: know what else to do. I'm convinced he's innocent. He

474
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 2: became more and more convinced Michael was innocent over the

475
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 2: years because of the way Michael continued to be There

476
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 2: was another lawyer from the Innocence Project, Morrison, who got involved,

477
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,639
Speaker 2: and they brought in a lawyer from Houston named John Rayley.

478
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 2: They wanted someone local, and John Rayley had done a

479
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,680
Speaker 2: trial recently on kind of junk science time of death.

480
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 2: They thought they could use him as the local attorney

481
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 2: to try to do most of the work, and he

482
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 2: came in pro bono, visited with Michael one time, became

483
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,920
Speaker 2: convinced Michael was innocent, and signed on to help them,

484
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 2: and they developed a very close relationship. I want to

485
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,400
Speaker 2: say they were working together eight years or something. From

486
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 2: the time this happened. They immediately started trying to find DNA,

487
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 2: to get DNA evidence.

488
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,160
Speaker 3: To look for exculpatory evidence.

489
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting there's some people when they described

490
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 2: his story, well, why didn't they go for the DNA

491
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 2: in the beginning? DNA what testing wasn't has common in

492
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty sixty. Now it came on a lot stronger

493
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 2: in the nineties.

494
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 1: And it's expensive, Bill Allison, I'm sure was pricey to

495
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 1: begin with, so this was not something that was realistic.

496
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 3: Most likely at this point.

497
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 2: Right and Michael Morton's parents had spent a lot of

498
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 2: their own money. Everyone was kind of at the end

499
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 2: of the line. When the investigators had originally investigated the scene,

500
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 2: they had taken samples from Christine's body. There was blood

501
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,399
Speaker 2: around the room. Wherever they found blood, I think they

502
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 2: tried to track it. They had looked for other evidence

503
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 2: on her person, evidence of sexual assault, things like looking

504
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: for DNA, and they didn't find anything on her that

505
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,640
Speaker 2: was conclusive. So the Innocence Project came on it, Okay,

506
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 2: we want to test more. They weren't testing for DNA

507
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 2: at the time of the trial, so this was a

508
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 2: new thing, and there had been some changes in Williamson County.

509
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 2: Ken Anderson had gone on to become a judge, and

510
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 2: there was a new district attorney, John Bradley, and he

511
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 2: was kind of a protege of ken Anderson's. They were buddies,

512
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 2: so that I think is one of the reasons for

513
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: his actions. When the Innocence Project came in and asked

514
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,640
Speaker 2: for DNA testing, John Bradley was like, no, we don't

515
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 2: need to do that.

516
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 3: It's a waste.

517
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 2: And they said, well, we think that there could be

518
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 2: something exculpatory here, we should just check this. And I

519
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 2: want to say he held out for years before he'd

520
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 2: finally let them test anything.

521
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: Does it cost the county money, is it the Innocence Project,

522
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 1: the one footing the bill for DNA time believe.

523
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: I believe they're paying for it. Yeah, I don't think

524
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 2: it's costing the county anything.

525
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: But they have to release it.

526
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 2: They have to release it, and I think that that

527
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 2: case had been such a victory for them. I think

528
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: one of the reasons can Anderson had been because you're

529
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 2: voted a judge in Texas. One of the reasons can

530
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 2: Anderson had gotten to be a judge was he was

531
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 2: a star when he convicted Michael Morton. It made his name.

532
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 2: It was a big deal for him. John Bradley watching

533
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 2: out for someone who mentored him.

534
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:15,360
Speaker 3: I think he.

535
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 2: Probably doesn't want to dig that back up. Once you've

536
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 2: put someone away, you don't want to get back into it.

537
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: So it's just this resistance to try and ultimately, I

538
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 2: think a couple of things happened along the way while

539
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 2: he was delaying.

540
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 3: Two things happened.

541
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 2: They filed a Freedom of Information Act request for more

542
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: of the records of the case, and at some point

543
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: that came through and they did get some records and

544
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: what they started to see was shocking. And then there

545
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: was another murder that we'll find out about later. That

546
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 2: ultimately was a trigger that pushed John Bradley to do more.

547
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 2: So John Bradley wasn't going to do much, but then

548
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 2: things eventually kind of forced him.

549
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: Tell me about the results of the FOYA. What did

550
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 1: they find when they requested these records, which included some

551
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 1: pivotal interviews right after the murder.

552
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: When they chose when Ken Anderson chose not to put

553
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 2: Don Wood, the investigator on the stand at that point

554
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,439
Speaker 2: in Texas, if you he didn't put him on the stand,

555
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 2: you didn't have to admit Don Wood's notes on the investigation,

556
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 2: and come to find out through this Freedom of Information

557
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 2: Act request, Don Wood's notes were pretty interesting. Number One,

558
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 2: Christine's mother had been talking to Eric about what Eric

559
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 2: remembered from the day of the murder.

560
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: Remind us how old Eric was.

561
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: Eric was three.

562
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 2: But there's a transcript of Christine's mother calling Don Wood

563
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 2: having this conversation, and you can read it verbatim, you know,

564
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 2: his secondhand at this point because she's telling him what

565
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 2: she and Eric talked about. But she said that Eric

566
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: had described that day as there being a man, an

567
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: angry man. I believe he was harry, He had a mustache,

568
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 2: he described him as a monster with red hands. He

569
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: talked about impiling suitcases and Christine's mother and said it

570
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: was that your daddy.

571
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 3: Where was your daddy?

572
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: And he says, no, it was just mom and I okay.

573
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: Eric had told her clearly that Michael Morton was not

574
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: in the room. There was a monster with red hands,

575
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: and it wasn't Michael Morton.

576
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: I'm talking with filmmaker and tenfold more Wicked producer Jason

577
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: Whaling about the wrongful conviction of Michael Morton. We've just

578
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: found out that the district attorney has withheld information in

579
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: that case, including statements made by the only witness, Michael's

580
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: three year old son. You would think a three year

581
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,239
Speaker 1: old is not a reliable witness, but a three year

582
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: old would absolutely identify their own parent.

583
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 3: He would know who his dad.

584
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: Was, even in a traumatic situation like this, you know,

585
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 1: and he Eric says also he was hurting mommy.

586
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, which is devastating because then you know, Eric,

587
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 2: he wasn't just in the other room asleep or anything.

588
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 3: He was there and he knew it.

589
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: What does Christine's mother say to Don Wood about all

590
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: of this? She is reporting that her grandson is saying

591
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: that that Michael, his father, was not the one who

592
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:56,479
Speaker 1: did it.

593
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: I'm sure it was difficult for her. I'm sure her

594
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 2: biggest concern was Eric. And that's how I that's you know,

595
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 2: that's that evidence we talked about earlier, Like why I

596
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: feel like I know that she didn't believe Michael did

597
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: it because Eric told her so.

598
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: Ken Anderson did not put down Wood on the stand

599
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: because he didn't want that transcript.

600
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 2: That transcript would have had to have gone to Bill

601
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: Allison to use in the defense.

602
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: Unbelievable.

603
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 2: In addition, neighbors mentioned someone parking a van a suspicious

604
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 2: looking person casing the neighborhood prior to the event. In addition,

605
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: a credit card or a check written to Christine had

606
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: been endorsed with a forgery and cashed after the crime.

607
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: So someone stole a check written to her and endorsed

608
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 2: it to a forged name and took the cash from

609
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: it after the fact. There was one other piece. There

610
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: was a bandana that they'd found in the backyard. The

611
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: bandana had some blood on it, but no one ever knew.

612
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 3: What it was.

613
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: They didn't know whose blood it was, They couldn't be sure,

614
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: And that had never been tested.

615
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: And they weren't sure this was connected to the crime

616
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: to begin with. It was a bandana. I mean, of

617
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: course it's a bloody bandana.

618
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: No, that's that's true.

619
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: And so what happened is I think John Bradley knew, like, okay,

620
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: I better give him something, so he allows some DNA testing.

621
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: They start to test things from the crime scene. Everything's negative,

622
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: you know, nothing that didn't belong there. So they have

623
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: no other suspect. Still goes back to the beginning. If

624
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 2: there's no other suspect, they're going to stick with you, Michael.

625
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 2: They felt like nothing was going to come out of it.

626
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 2: And then that bandana came up the last ditch piece

627
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: because it was found in the woods behind the house.

628
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 3: It had blood on it.

629
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: They weren't sure her as it was it was like

630
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: one hundred feet behind the house, and they got John

631
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: Bradley to agree and they tested it and they got

632
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: a hit. It had Christine's blood and it had DNA

633
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 2: from another person that was not Michael Morton intermingled.

634
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: So this is definitely a person who was there at

635
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: the time.

636
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 2: And it turns out it was skin cells from someone else. Yeah,

637
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 2: someone who was there. It had been in the house

638
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: at some point because it had her blood on it.

639
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 2: And at that time we now had this national database

640
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: of DNA and they submitted that additional DNA to that

641
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: database and they got a hit. It turned out to

642
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 2: be attached to a violent criminal named Mark Alan Norwood.

643
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 2: That kind of triggered everything from that point began to snowball.

644
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: You knew, okay, there's a different suspect. The case is

645
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: going to fall apart, and things started to open up,

646
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: and it only took a matter of months, I think,

647
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 2: to start to get close to overturning this case twenty

648
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 2: five years later.

649
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: But what do we know about Mark Allen Norwood.

650
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty interesting because one of the attorneys was

651
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 2: doing some more investigation and they were looking to Mark

652
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: Allen Norwood's record. He'd broken in on burglaries, there was

653
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: some violent crime in his past. But they noticed that

654
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: there was an unsolved murder case from two years after

655
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 2: Christine's murder from nineteen eighty eight, a few blocks from

656
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: where Mark Allen Norwood lived, and it had the same

657
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: exact circumstances bludgeoned innner bed and that was shocking, I

658
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 2: think to everyone involved. Okay, this isn't just that you

659
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: put an innocent man in prison for twenty five years.

660
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 3: That's not what's at stake anymore. Now.

661
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: You did that and ignored the murderer, ignored the evidence

662
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: that said there was someone else out there, and ignored

663
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: this murderer, and he went and killed someone else in

664
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: the same way two years later, someone who could still

665
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 2: be alive if you'd actually done your job instead of

666
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: trying so hard to look like you were doing your job.

667
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: You all as the filmmakers interviewed the family of the

668
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: second victim, the woman who died in nineteen eighty eight,

669
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: and it's devastating to listen to that. They just feel

670
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: like she would still be here had someone else been

671
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: looking into this case, who was not so focused on

672
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: Michael Morton being the guilty one.

673
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: It's a shame Mark Allan Norwood was when they found

674
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: him at this point, they indicted him rather quickly for

675
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: Christine's murder. They went through the process of overturning Michael's conviction.

676
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: Mark Alan Norwood was washing dishes in a restaurant and

677
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: bas drop, I believe a.

678
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 3: Friend of mine worked with him. Are you serious? And

679
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 3: I told me about it.

680
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: It's strange just say, oh, yeah, he used to wash

681
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 2: dishes in this restaurant I worked. That's the monster that

682
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: you don't want on the street.

683
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: The one Eric described with the bushy.

684
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, he has a great handlebar mustache out. I hate

685
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 2: to think that there's people like that, but we know

686
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: that there are. The fear of people like that is

687
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: why they work so hard to put Michael away. That

688
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: we don't want that guy out on the street, but

689
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: instead they let that guy keep doing it and put

690
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: an innocent man away. Everybody can be victim to losing

691
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: your clear eyed view of what's going on because your

692
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: desire to get a win, you know, you desire to

693
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 2: feel safe.

694
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: All of this has happened. And tell me about the director, Well,

695
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: how does this film even come into existence?

696
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: Passed away? But there's this in my mind.

697
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: The legendary Austin filmmaker named al Reinert, who directed an

698
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: amazing movie about the Apollo program called For All Mankind.

699
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: He's a great filmmaker, really in touch with the human

700
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: journey and the emotional side of what's going on in

701
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: his storytelling. He also wrote Apollo eleven. He got an

702
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: Academy Award nomination for for All Mankind and another one

703
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: for writing Apollo eleven. He had moved back to Austin.

704
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: He'd been in LA for a lot of years, and

705
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: I think he heard about this case. He had a

706
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: very unique view of it. The film is not a

707
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: true crime film. The first time I met with Al,

708
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: he was like, I want to tell the story of

709
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: Michael's redemption and the journey that he went through. And

710
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: I said, that's great. What about the crime? Did he

711
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: really do it? And he was like, he's innocent. I'm

712
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: pretty convinced, and so was the court.

713
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: Everybody.

714
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: Everybody's been convinced. A couple of the producers are good

715
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: friends of mine. We'd worked on some other projects, and

716
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: they said, we need help editing the film. I do

717
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: a little bit of everything in film, but editing is

718
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 2: very fun.

719
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 3: I like it a lot.

720
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: It's the writing of documentaries. Think of the magnetic poems

721
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 2: on the fridge. Okay, that's something someone said, that's something

722
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: someone said. How do we put this together in a

723
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: way that feels real and makes sense and tells that

724
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: whole story. There was another great editor, John Aldrich, and

725
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: he and I kind of broke up the film into

726
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: parts and did different parts, and then traded it off

727
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: and gave notes on each other's parts and worked with that,

728
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: And we did a lot of sessions sitting with Al

729
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: who's maybe the most organized director I've ever worked with,

730
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: in the sense that he could just go through the

731
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: transcripts and highlight lines, put this one here, and this

732
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: one here and this one here, and you would be

733
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: seventy five percent of the way there, and then it's

734
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: just nuanced from that.

735
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: How do you tackle this story? As the editor going

736
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: in this and a true crime fan and someone who

737
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: I considered to be just brilliant with storyline, I depend

738
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: on you for Timfoltimore Wicked to help me preserve the mystery.

739
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: How do you keep the tension for the audience? What

740
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: are you looking for? Things are a little bit different

741
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: in this film that I'm used to. In general, I

742
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: think that a lot of tension comes from withholding information

743
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: in a realistic way. When we're telling a story that

744
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 1: has already unfolded, we have the benefit of knowing everything,

745
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: but when we're going back to work our way through it,

746
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: we have to put the right details at the right time.

747
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: Different people have different words for how to describe it

748
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: you want to put a detail in, it makes them

749
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: want to know something else. Putting the details in there

750
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: that you're hoping the audience will be like, I.

751
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: Want to know. I want to know.

752
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: I believe in rigorous testing of work and showing it

753
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: to audiences and listening. It's good that someone wanted to

754
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: know something. It means they're leaning in. It means they're

755
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: listening more.

756
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: What were you able to play around with that Al

757
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: would let you get away with knowing that Al is

758
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: very certain that he is innocent.

759
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: I wanted the mystery and the investigation to take up

760
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: more time than it did originally. There's a mystery in

761
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: the trial in the sense that we don't know how

762
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 2: how they convicted this guy, Like, Okay, I know this

763
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: guy's innocent. How did they convince a jury to get this?

764
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: And so the discovery for me is watching how do

765
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: they convince this jury to actually convict him. It's also

766
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: in withholding those same details that Michael didn't know about

767
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: the calls with Christine's mother around Eric's testimony. Michael didn't

768
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 2: get to know that. Bill Allison didn't get to know that,

769
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: So that mystery is actually real. I think you can

770
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: plant a little bit of a seed every now and then,

771
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 2: like there's something out there, but we don't know what

772
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: it is. Bill Allison does it like we want to

773
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 2: talk to Don Wood. He was the lead investigator, but

774
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: they wouldn't put him on the stand. There's a nugget

775
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: in there that I think is interesting. Why aren't they

776
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: what's he got? But we don't find out until later

777
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 2: what he has. That there's an emotional mystery. Then that's

778
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: the one that surprised me that I wouldn't have gotten there.

779
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: But Al's really great about how is this guy that

780
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: we're looking at who seems so at peace? How did

781
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: he go through that? You know, how did he get

782
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: through this? And so there's something in that.

783
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: When you talk to my classes about this film, I'm

784
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: always surprised because you read that note that he wrote Christine,

785
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: He's pissed off. It's kind of an aggressive note. He says,

786
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: I bought you a nice dinner, and he underlined nice

787
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: a couple of times. And I noticed in the film

788
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: that there's a kind of a wide shot and nobody's

789
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: really you guys, do not focus in on that note

790
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: because I think it made him look like a little

791
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: bit of a jerk, not guilty, but a jerk. A

792
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: great way to create more mystery would be to really

793
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: include stuff like that.

794
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: I was interested in painting the picture of Michael as

795
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: a potential killer.

796
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 3: There's mystery in that.

797
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: Let's paint him as a potential killer and then slowly

798
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: reveal that he's not.

799
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: How didn't want to do that in the case of

800
00:32:59,520 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: this film.

801
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 2: That would get in the way of empathizing with Michael

802
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: and being along his emotional ride, which is I think

803
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: the experience he's trying to convey, the experience of having

804
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: your child ripped away from you unjustly, being convicted when

805
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: you didn't think it was going to happen, going to

806
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: a prison, and going through all the things that he

807
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: went through.

808
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 3: And if we let the audience.

809
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: Believe too much that he's a killer, we won't empathize

810
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: with him.

811
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: As an editor, you have an incredible ability any film

812
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: editor does, of manipulating the audience with music, with holding

813
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: scenes and adding scenes and moving things around. How do

814
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: you know what that line is? For me, it has

815
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: to be collaboration. I could jump over the line pretty

816
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: quickly in either films that I've done or the Tenfold series,

817
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: and you and Laura and producers that I work with

818
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: sort of stop that is that what the key is

819
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: is having a good community of people who you're working

820
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: with on this to sort of do it tricks and balances.

821
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: No, I think that's exactly it. You need a team

822
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: that's talking about it. You need to know that every

823
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 2: single thing that you put in there is intentional and

824
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 2: you thought of about it. Everything that I'm talking about

825
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: now was in the discussion in the editing room. Well

826
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: this would suggest more of this. Well I don't want

827
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: to do that because of this? Okay, what about this?

828
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: How does this work? And if you don't have that conversation,

829
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 2: you're really just kind of throwing stuff out there and

830
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 2: you'll find out what sticks later. And that's the other

831
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: part of testing. You show it to an audience and

832
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: you hear what they're thinking. Oh wow, they're thinking they

833
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: don't like Michael, or they're thinking they like Michael. By

834
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: showing it to others and by talking to each other

835
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: about it, and when you show it to others, I

836
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: try to have these free form discussions with them.

837
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: What did you get? What do you feel?

838
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: And you just listen and it's really hard to hear

839
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 2: people I don't like this, I like that, But if

840
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: you don't listen to that, you're not really understanding what

841
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: your audience is taking from it. And so that's to

842
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: me the key a good group and then testing all

843
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: the people I've ever worked with. Nobody ever wants to

844
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 2: put a lie in the film, but nothing's actually the truth.

845
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 2: It's what words they chose to put on camera. How

846
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: Michael answers the question is is that the truth or

847
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 2: that's that's his perspective and films are a series of

848
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: different perspectives melded to get the truth, and so we

849
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: have to make choices.

850
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: Were there things that did not make it in that

851
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: you okay, let's talk about them.

852
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think in retrospect I tend to

853
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: agree with him because of the film that he wanted

854
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: to make, and I think that film is a more

855
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: important film. Did Michael Morton need to be another murder mystery?

856
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: So do we need that for him? The crime investigation

857
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: that puts him through that, I don't know. That might

858
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: be just my problems with lanning to tell the dark

859
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: side of everything. Huh if I used that, Michael, give

860
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: me a quick look at somebody over here that would

861
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: make him seem shifty. Or there's a moment he's describing

862
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: being in the hospital with Eric for the heart surgeries

863
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 2: and he sounded angry. If I put that in there early,

864
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: people are going to decide that this is an angry man.

865
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 2: Then they'll do the same thing they did to him

866
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 2: in the courtroom.

867
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: What happens. What is the conclusion of this story.

868
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 3: Michael Moore's released.

869
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: The State of Texas has to pay him almost two

870
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: million dollars eighty thousand dollars a year, and he was

871
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: imprisoned for almost twenty five years. He's reunited with his son.

872
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: His son is married and has at least one kid

873
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,919
Speaker 2: did at the time we made this film. His son

874
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: reconnected with him quickly. Michael got a believe a house

875
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 2: down on the lake and likes fishing and relaxing. But

876
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: then he spent a lot of time working to advocate

877
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 2: for this not to happen again. John Bradley was voted

878
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: out office in Williamson County when it came out that

879
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: he had tried to stop this the DNA and had

880
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: tried to cover up everything for a long time. Ken

881
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: Anderson was actually brought up on charges, He quit his

882
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: judge ship.

883
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 3: He'll never be a judge again.

884
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: Jim Botwell died of cancer while Michael was still in prison,

885
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 2: so no resolution there. Ken Anderson actually became I believe,

886
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 2: the only former DA or DA ever to go to

887
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 2: prison for doing something like this, for covering up a front.

888
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 2: It was a ten day sentence and maybe he served five.

889
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: But he did go to prison for a short amount

890
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: of time and he lost his job.

891
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: Well, okay, doesn't Michael Morton express to the court to

892
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: show mercy on Ken Anderson despite all of this.

893
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 3: He does.

894
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: Michael's really good about that. He's trying not to be

895
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: ventul He's probably trying just to live the life that

896
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: he didn't get to have. I believe he's remarried now.

897
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: He lost the middle part of his life. I mean,

898
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: he went in when he was thirty two. He's in

899
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: there twenty four plus years. There was a bill put

900
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: together called the Michael Morton Act as a response that

901
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: went through was Rick Perry signed it when he was

902
00:36:59,400 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: still governor.

903
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: The Michael Morton Act changes the law.

904
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: So that the DA has to release any potentially exculpatory

905
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: evidence to the defense before the.

906
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: Trial, regardless of if somebody is put on the stand

907
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: or not.

908
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 3: No more of that stuff anymore.

909
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 2: Michael Morton helped get that law changed, and the man

910
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,479
Speaker 2: who did this publicly paid a price, John Bradley. Interestingly enough,

911
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: I don't remember his exact title, but he went to

912
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: be some sort of legal representative for the island of Paoloo,

913
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 2: which is somewhere near the Philippines. And he did that

914
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: for a while and then left, and I don't know

915
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: where he is now.

916
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: So you've got two kids, like I do as a father,

917
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: what speaks to you about this story about Michael Morton's journey?

918
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 2: And I did really connect with the loss because as

919
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: a new parent, I was instill am enthralled with what's

920
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: happening in my children's lives. What I'm getting to experience

921
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 2: right now is the stuff that Michael Morton didn't get

922
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: to experience with his son. My son's going to finish

923
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 2: fifth grade, go to middle school, and his fifth grade

924
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: graduation that didn't happen for Michael Morton. I got to

925
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: teach him to ride a bike that didn't happen for

926
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 2: Michael Morton. And all the while, these people like Mark

927
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: Allen Norwood are out there. Our justice system sometimes seems

928
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: like it's so interested in a win that it's not

929
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: really seeking the justice part of it. We just hope

930
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: that that people who are out there working for us,

931
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 2: and I'm sure the vast majority of them are are

932
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 2: truly seeking the truth. Follow leads, give people the benefit

933
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: of the now. Don't go out there with your own

934
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: story of what's happening, and really figure out what the

935
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: story is. And that's something that we do as filmmakers.

936
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: Is like, if I come into the room and say

937
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: this is what it is, it's exactly like this, I'm

938
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 2: going to miss it. I feel like that's the lesson

939
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 2: for me and this whole thing. Really look for what's there,

940
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 2: and when you find leads, you got to follow them,

941
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 2: even if it's not convenient. My son was born just

942
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 2: he was two. When I was working on this. I

943
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: was thinking a lot about Eric the whole time. Like

944
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 2: that spoke to me right away, imagining this happening to me,

945
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: knowing that this is the town I.

946
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 3: Grew up in. It just felt like this could easily

947
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 3: happen to me.

948
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words.

949
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 5: The next afternoon, I'll go to the mall on Valentine's

950
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 5: Day and kill as many people as they can. They

951
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 5: spend just as much time talking about can we upload

952
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 5: pictures to Tumblr? Will everybody on Tumbler see us? Thinking

953
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 5: about this is like a content opportunity, almost more than

954
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 5: anything else, to become famous like Dylan and Eric the

955
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 5: Columbine Killers.

956
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my

957
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death In the year this has

958
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold War Media production. Alexis and

959
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer.

960
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does

961
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and ILSA Brink

962
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen

963
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

964
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more.

965
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show,

966
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads, and if you

967
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use

968
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email

969
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe, and

970
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever

971
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.