1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:05,119 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: She was always very careful with her stuff. She was 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 2: very orderly. She was the kind of person who would 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 2: keep letters that she wrote, copies of letters that she wrote. 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: I had an idea that she was doing that, but 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 2: I certainly didn't know the extent and the kinds of 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 2: thing that she was keeping in these boxes. 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 15 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: stories with details that have been published. Tenfold War Wicked 16 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: Presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 17 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 18 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: behind the stories. Many of the books that we talk 19 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: about on the show are very personal, and this book 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: is incredibly personal to its author. It's about a woman 21 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: in Mexico who journaled about everything in her life until 22 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: she was murdered. Were their answers to her death inside 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: her diaries and letters. Her sister, Christina Rivera Garza wrote 24 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: a book called Liliana's Invincible Summer. Well, let's start from 25 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: the beginning. Where did you two grow up? What's the 26 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: family dynamic? Like, you know, what's your age difference? All 27 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: of that? 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 2: Well, we are au Bonner family. I was born actually 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: on the Mexican side of the US Mexico borderline, in 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: Matamoros and Olippus, and five years later Leleana was born 31 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 2: in that re Mavolyon, also a city, an industrial city 32 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: in the north of Mexico. It was only the two 33 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 2: of us, two girls. My father was a scientist, my 34 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: mother was a homemaker. We led what I believed to 35 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 2: be a quite an average middle class life in Mexico. 36 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 2: We went to school in Central Mexico. We moved to 37 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: central Mexico when I was about I don't know, twelve 38 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: years old. My sister was much younger. We moved to 39 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: this city in the highest city actually in Mexico, to 40 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 2: Luca Tluca, very close to Mexico City. I very soon 41 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: moved back to Mexico City. We go to the university 42 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: and Liliana, who arrived in te Luca at a much 43 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: younger age and developed stronger relationships that I did. She 44 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: remained there in te Luca for her high school. It 45 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: was later when it came time for her to choose 46 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: she chose architecture, and she too moved to Mexico City. 47 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: She was a student at the Autonomous Metropolitan University in 48 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 2: Mexico City and as Caposalco twenty years old. 49 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: What would you say your relationship the intimacy of your 50 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: relationship was like there was. 51 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: A big age difference between the two of us, five 52 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: years when you are very young. For many many years, 53 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: we never shared friends. It was very difficult for us. 54 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 2: But what we did share was swimming lessons. The swimming 55 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: pool that became a place in which we always knew 56 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: we were sisters. There we told each other secrets, We 57 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 2: kept each other informed by what we were doing. We 58 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 2: had great admiration for each other. We exchanged books. I've 59 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: come to learn now that I've been doing that, I've 60 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: done my research around her life that she read pretty 61 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: much every single book that I recommended her to read. 62 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 2: She passed him along to her dearest friends as well. 63 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: There was a communication, a close one between the two 64 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: of us, but there were issues too that we didn't 65 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: talk about. One of those issues that I presume was 66 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: very difficult for her to actually share was the story 67 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: that she got into with his boyfriend of hers. She 68 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: met into Luca in the late nineteen eighties angle Gonzale. 69 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: Rams and how old was she when they met? 70 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 2: Late fourteens, early fifteens In Mexico, we have the second 71 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: Secudaria secondary school before going properly to the high school. 72 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 2: She met him precisely in the first year of her 73 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: high school. 74 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: What do you remember her saying about him, her emotions 75 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: around him? Was this a big infatuation and did he 76 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: seem to reciprocate it? 77 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: Was an interesting story from the very beginning, it seems 78 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: that he had to really try very hard to get 79 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: Leana's attention. He was a fast, short, stocky, blonde guy, 80 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: temperamental and from the very beginning he was very much 81 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: obsessed with Leana. He talked to her friends. He wanted 82 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 2: to make sure that they were going to become nobvious, 83 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: that they were going to go steady right, and Lilliana 84 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: after thinking about that, after you know, flirting with other guys. 85 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 2: After considering several options. Eventually, a year after they met, 86 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 2: they became sweethearts. They became nobvious. 87 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: When she was a teenager. They were both teenagers. 88 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was two years older than her. They were 89 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: more or less the same age. 90 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: Did your mother have a sense at all for him? 91 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: Did she have some sort of uneasiness or did she 92 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: think that they would be a good match. 93 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: It was kind of complicated. He at that point was 94 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: very solicitous. He had a car, he was very willing 95 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 2: to take everywhere she wanted to go. She came and 96 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 2: picked her up. He was always paying attention to what 97 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: she wanted to do. So, to my mom, to my father, 98 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: those were good signs. We didn't have an idea. We 99 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: couldn't read all that attention as control. We read most 100 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: of that attention as just an infatuation, as a loving 101 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 2: interest on his side. 102 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: Was Liliana recording her thoughts journaling at this age or 103 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: did that come a little bit later. 104 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: No. Actually, Leana was writing from a very young age, 105 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 2: and she was writing pretty much about every single thing 106 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: that was happening to her. She was non necessarily very 107 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 2: direct or open about her ideas. At times, she was 108 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: even cryptic, but at the beginning, it seems that she 109 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: was very much interested in him, and she had several 110 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: entries in a diary indicating that she was very happy 111 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: and that she got to really really like this guy. 112 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: Something happened though, pretty soon and some months after they 113 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 2: started to go steady. And that's something that happened is 114 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: something that is something that Leona never quite described, at 115 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: least not openly. It was something that she expressed as 116 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: a way of loving her that she disliked, a way 117 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: of connecting or trying to be with her that she 118 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: didn't find either appealing. She just said, I just don't 119 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 2: like that. I don't like the way she wants to 120 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: love me. And so that's how I came to learn 121 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: that there was something complicated there, something that she was 122 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: trying to get at and not necessarily elaborating further on that. 123 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: She went on to university right to major architecture, So 124 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: this was a long term relationship. Were they together when 125 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: she went to school? 126 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: That was a major issue too, because she was admitted 127 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: at this university in Mexico City, he was not. She 128 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: moved from that industrial city in central Mexico de Luca 129 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: to live on her own for the first time in 130 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: Mexico City, sprawling metropolis, and she was obviously meeting new people, 131 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: experiencing new facets of life, getting interested, really passionate about 132 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 2: her field, and he was not. And it was then 133 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 2: that he became even more controlling, increasingly aggressive too. 134 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: And this was the only relationship she had between sort 135 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: of fifteen sixteen up until what ends up happening is 136 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: that right had she broken up with him at any point. 137 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: They broke up several times, especially when Leanna was living 138 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: already in Mexico City, she would try to go out 139 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: with some other friends. She developed close relationships with, at 140 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 2: least two of them. One of them, Draule Spino Madrigal, 141 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: actually was profoundly in love with her, and one of 142 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: the most tender testimonies that I was witnessed to precisely 143 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: came from him. So she was, she was, and she 144 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: told this to all her friends. She was trying to 145 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 2: get out of that relationship, but she didn't know how 146 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: to do it. Jil Gonzale Ramos was very insistent. He 147 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: was carrying a gun. Lilliana confided one of her friends 148 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 2: that he had told her that if she let him, 149 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: he was going to kill herself. But I saw there 150 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: is a woman just growing very rapidly, discovering a world 151 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: that she was really passionate about, and a man who 152 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: wouldn't let her. 153 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: Go, And you and your parents didn't have a sense 154 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: for how disturbing their relationship was unraveling at this point. 155 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: Before what happens happens. 156 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: This is the late twentieth century, this is the late eighties, 157 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 2: and I think all across the world, not only Mexico, 158 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 2: it was very difficult to talk about domestic violence, even 159 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 2: more difficult to talk about violence between just a young couple. 160 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: In addition to that in Mexico US around the world, 161 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: a lot of this kind of behavior was framed within 162 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: the narrative of romantic love, passion, passion, jealousy, all the 163 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: kinds of things that now we will be very worried 164 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: about and we see red flags all over. I don't 165 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 2: think this was the case in the nineteen nineties. I 166 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: think Lillana knew that something was not right. I think 167 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 2: some of the friends, closer friends of Illana were aware 168 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: that this guy was not necessarily the kind of person 169 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: that Leana was going to growing up with. They never 170 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 2: saw any incidents of violence for example. So they knew 171 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: something was off that none of us, including Lilliana, I think, 172 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: knew how dangerous the situation was. 173 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: So tell me about the events that lead up to 174 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: July sixteenth, nineteen ninety. When was the last time you 175 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: had spoken to her before this happens. 176 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,599 Speaker 2: Well, I have to tell you I have moved to 177 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 2: the United States before. Then, in nineteen eighty eight, I 178 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: moved to Houston to I enrolled into a master's degree 179 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 2: and later a PhD. So I was very much living 180 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: in the United States while this story was developing. So 181 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 2: Leana would tell me about what was happening. But taking 182 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: a look at the letters that we exchanged, at that point, 183 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: we were mostly talking about what was happening in our world, 184 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: about shared interest about movies, and she was not necessarily 185 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 2: talking about about him. In the years previous to this 186 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety, Leleana was really eagerly embracing life. She had 187 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 2: travel with her friends to places like Wahaka in southern Mexico. 188 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: She had become a teaching assistant to a professor in 189 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: her university. She was reading all kinds of stuff, not 190 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: necessarily architecture related. So it seems that the freedom that 191 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: she was so insistent about the freedom that she really 192 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: cherished was becoming increasingly annoying to Unca. That was a 193 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: situation that a couple of months prior to that July sixteenth, 194 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: I see a woman trying to find her way in 195 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: the world of loving and not loving these person who 196 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,239 Speaker 2: had been very important in her life. She was developing 197 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 2: new interests, and it was becoming increasingly complicated. Just to 198 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: balance that situation. 199 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what happens with her murder from your 200 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: point of view, When do you find out anything after 201 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: July sixteenth, and how do you find it out? 202 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: Well, that was a story very hard to put together, 203 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: and I had to read the newspaper articles that were 204 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: published about it. I had to I talked to Lilliana's 205 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: friends about how things developed the morning of July sixteenth. 206 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 2: According to most witnesses, what had happened is that Lilliana 207 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,479 Speaker 2: had been working that Sunday, July fifteenth, in a university 208 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: project with this friend of his Manolo, a classmate too, 209 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: and a guy who had been in love with her 210 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 2: in the past. It seems like they were at the 211 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 2: initial stages of a new relationship. They've been together the 212 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: whole day working on this project, and at about ten 213 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 2: o'clock at night he left. Lilliana had asked to stay 214 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: with her because she was feeling lonely, and he said no, 215 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: I had to go to my mom. I promised my 216 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: mom that I would get there. I'll pick you up 217 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,839 Speaker 2: tomorrow morning, early in the morning so that we can 218 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: take this project to class. That was at ten o'clock. 219 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: According to most witnesses, what happened is that Anhel Gonzalez 220 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: Ramos arrived out around one o'clock in the morning, jumped 221 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: over the fence according to some. According to authors, he 222 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: borrowed a room to open the gate, the main gate 223 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: of the place where Leana was leaving. In any case, 224 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 2: what I'm trying to say is that he was not 225 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: invited or is expected that night. We don't know exactly 226 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 2: what happened during those hours, but by five o'clock he 227 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: left the place. Manolo came by in the morning at 228 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: about seven point thirty and realized that Lilliana was dead. 229 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: According to the scientific report, she was suffocated. She was 230 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: renting a room in this larger home. The owner of 231 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: the home. Manola called the owner of the home. Both 232 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: of them very quickly called the police. The police came, 233 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 2: The police started to call witnesses, friends of Williana. Detectives 234 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: and investigators showed up to the scene. And meanwhile, my 235 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: parents were traveling. They were in Europe at that point 236 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: and I was in the United States, so they were 237 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: trying very hard to locate either of us so that 238 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: we could come to Mexico City immediately. I was, as 239 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: I said, in Houston, and I received the visit of 240 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 2: members of the Mexican consulate. They knock on my door, 241 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: and I was very strange. You know, people don't come 242 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: on announced in the United States usually, so I knew 243 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: something was strong. And as soon as they said her name, 244 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 2: I knew that the news were not good. They told 245 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: me very same what had happened, and I immediately called 246 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: my family, family that I have in Houston. We got 247 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: together about tickets and we left for Mexico City as 248 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: soon as we could. 249 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: And when you arrived in Mexico City, what was the explanation? 250 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: Where were they in the investigation at that point? 251 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: This is something that I actually mentioned in the book. 252 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: When I was on the plane, on the flight going 253 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: to Mexico City, I was not given any kind of explanation. 254 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: I was told that my sister was no longer with us, 255 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 2: and I was thinking, what could have happened, what could 256 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: have happened? And then there was this point an uncle 257 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 2: of mine said, the only thing I wish for her 258 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: is that she had a true and beautiful love in 259 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: her life. And at that point something really down at me, 260 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: and I was thinking, that's what happened. So I must 261 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: have known something, I must have remembered something, because that 262 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: was my first conclusion. So as soon as we arrived 263 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: in Mexico City, we were taking to the place where 264 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: where Lilliana was. She was no longer in the house 265 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: where she was killed. We had to organize taking her 266 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 2: from Mexico City to Toluca and organize all the family 267 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 2: members who were coming. It was very, very confusing, and 268 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: in fact, it's been thanks to the interviews that I've 269 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: been conducting with friends and family members that I've been 270 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: able to remember much of what had happened. At that point, 271 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: I really didn't remember much of it. Everything happened very fast, 272 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: there were many, many people involved, and the only thing 273 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: that we were told was that there was a strong 274 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 2: suspicion that Uncle Gonzales Ramos, Lilliana's ex boyfriend, that he 275 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 2: was a person that the police was looking for as 276 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: the main person of interest in the case. 277 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: Did you and your family have faith in the police 278 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: in Mexico City that they would follow through on all 279 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: of this, because I'm assuming that was the main suspect. 280 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: Like you've said, we. 281 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: Had our doubts definitely now looking at the records, though, 282 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 2: what I realized is that they did what they were 283 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: supposed to do at the beginning, and then I suppose 284 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: my interpretation is that they just didn't consider this to 285 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 2: be an important case, so they after a couple of 286 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: months of doing what they were supposed to be doing, 287 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 2: you know, they just quit. They didn't continue. 288 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: Because he vanished. Is that right escaped? 289 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. We didn't know exactly where he had gone, but 290 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 2: we knew that he was no longer in Tuluca, and 291 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 2: perhaps he was no longer in Mexico. 292 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: At what point do you discover all of this material 293 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: and when does it start clicking in your head that 294 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 1: this would be a book that would shine a light 295 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: on an issue that's clearly been in the dark all 296 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: over the world, but in Mexico too well. 297 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 2: One of the major obstacles to even think or to 298 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: go through this experience is that when this kind of 299 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 2: violence gets framed as a passionate crime, pretty much this 300 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 2: is a way of intrinsically blaming the victim and acceenerating 301 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: the perpetrator. So it's very hard to talk about is 302 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: a story that is very hard to write about in 303 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: the language of patriarchy, the system that is both causing 304 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: the problem and silencing the problem at the same time. 305 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: So you have to do a lot to language, a 306 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 2: lot to the narratives that we live by in order 307 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 2: to truly honor the victims in this story. So it 308 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: was very hard for me, both as a sister, as 309 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 2: a human being, and as a writer to even think 310 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: about the possibility of writing this story. But over the 311 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 2: last twenty thirty years, there has been a very strong 312 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: feminist movement in Mexico, throughout Latin America, women's mobilizations in general, 313 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: placing a greater emphasis on gender violence and specifically on femicide, 314 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: the most little of these violences. So I think all 315 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: these years after the fact, I found myself now with 316 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: the language that I needed to tell the story. And also, 317 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 2: very importantly, I had been thinking about reopening the case 318 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 2: since more or less twenty nineteen. But then it came 319 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, and the COVID pandemic had us, and then 320 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: we all knew that we could die at any moment. 321 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 2: And at that point I knew that I needed to 322 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 2: write this book, that this was a book, that I 323 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: didn't want to die without having written it, and that 324 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: there was a commitment of myself side of responsibility, that 325 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: I had to tell my sister's story because otherwise she 326 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: would have been erased by the violence that took her 327 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: from us. 328 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: Tell me about the research, so we know the journal 329 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: entries anything that your sister's written. You had access to 330 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: and you interviewed friends and neighbors. Were the police at 331 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: all helpful? Were court records helpful? Did you want to 332 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: learn more about Ramos? 333 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 2: Many things happened at the same time. I knew that 334 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 2: we had boxes with Lillana's belongings in our home. They 335 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: had been there for three years, no one had there 336 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: to touch them. I came down in January of twenty 337 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 2: twenty to my parents' house looking, in fact, for some 338 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 2: kind of day book, some kind of address book that 339 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: might help me locate Llana's friends. In Mexico City. I 340 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: didn't know their names. I didn't know if they were alive. 341 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: I didn't know if they were still living in Mexico City. 342 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 2: I didn't know what had happened to them. So my 343 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: husband and I started to do all We became these detectives. 344 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 2: We were trying to locate people, we were trying to 345 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 2: gather as much evidence as we were able to do. 346 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 2: That took a lot of time and a lot of efforts, 347 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 2: and I'm really very thankful to my husband. So I 348 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 2: will learn on this Baragos who really I mean, he's 349 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 2: a visual artist that now we know that he is, 350 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 2: he could be a really good detective too. He was 351 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 2: the one who located most of Liliana's friends, and once 352 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 2: he was able to do that, I proceeded to talk 353 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 2: with them to have long phone interviews which I transcribed. 354 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: I didn't record any of that. I transcribed them. I 355 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 2: talked to them very openly about what I was doing. 356 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: I told him that I was going to be sharing 357 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 2: with them the drafts of this book and that they 358 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 2: would have a say in whatever I was writing, and 359 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 2: that if they didn't agree with what I was writing, 360 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: that at any point I could stop it was their 361 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 2: work what I really wanted to be able to bring 362 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 2: into page, and the same happened with my parents. Obviously, 363 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 2: we had had many conversations about this, specifically in the 364 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: latter years, and they also got a chance to read 365 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 2: the draft before I even sent it to the press. 366 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 2: I think it was very important to me just to 367 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 2: create that trust between us, knowing that the final goal 368 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 2: was not only to uncover and to share Lilliana's life, 369 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 2: but also that at that point I was very much 370 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 2: trying to catch the killer. I worked with the police, 371 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 2: I hired a lawyer because it was very hard to 372 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: even get the police case. Many years had passed that 373 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: some members of the General Attorney's office, some workers that 374 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: had told me, well, you know, it's been such a 375 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: long time, we might have destroyed that file. So all 376 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 2: these issues really propelled me into writing the book. This 377 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 2: is a book, by the way, that I wanted to 378 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: write from the very beginning of my writing career, and 379 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 2: it's a book that I tried to write several times prior, 380 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: and I failed utterly every single time that I tried 381 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 2: to write it. But when I actually came across her 382 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 2: own writings, this effective archive as I'm calling it. I 383 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: knew that I finally was going to be able to 384 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: do it. I had the time, I had all the materials, 385 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 2: I had all these other voices around, and I knew 386 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: that this time I was strong enough also personally to 387 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: go through the experience of bringing her life back to us. 388 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: But it must have been incredibly painful to hear her 389 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: voice and you know, to know her so well, and 390 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: to be able to sort of visualize it. I'm assuming 391 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: she wrote about very difficult things involving Romos at the time, 392 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: or did she not She did. 393 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: It was very painful, no doubt about that, even uncovering 394 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 2: you know, her talents, her wisdom, her humor, even the 395 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: happy things were painful because she's no longer less right, obviously, 396 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 2: this is the most difficult world that I have ever written. 397 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 2: But at the same time, just having the opportunity to 398 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: get so close to her and to be able to 399 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,239 Speaker 2: recreate this kind of community within which she is very 400 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: much alive, I think that compensates also for the pain. 401 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: Your parents, I can't imagine thought participating in this book 402 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: was easy. What do you think is the most difficult 403 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: thing that you either asked them or that they felt 404 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,479 Speaker 1: compelled to explain to you in the book. 405 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 2: I had no idea how they were going to be 406 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 2: reacting when I first approached the issue. When I told 407 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 2: them I was trying to do this, I was incredibly careful. 408 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 2: For many years, it was very difficult for us even 409 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 2: utter her name. So I had no idea. Really, when 410 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: I say I had no idea, I'm very honest. I 411 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 2: didn't know what they were going to think, and I 412 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 2: was quite surprised when their very first reaction. Both of 413 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: them were not only Willings, but also eager to participate 414 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 2: in the whole process, the legal process and the writing 415 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 2: process as well. I think for them it was as 416 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 2: important as it was for me to take Leleana's life 417 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 2: out of that passionate crime narrative, to restitute her voice 418 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 2: and her perspective, and to tell the story of her 419 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 2: life according to her own words and values. And I 420 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,719 Speaker 2: think that that's been incredibly helpful too for all of 421 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 2: us as a family, just to be able to tell 422 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: a story that honors her life, that pays attention to 423 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 2: the way in which she died, but that is not 424 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: only concentrated on that. This is something that that happens 425 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 2: very often when violence is involved, the whole story evolves 426 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: and develops around the violent act, and at times we 427 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: forget that there are entire, complicated, complex, beautiful lives too. 428 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 2: So this is something that I'm trying to do very 429 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 2: consciously in this book. 430 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that families don't have some level of 431 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: feeling of I don't know if regrets the right word, 432 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: but just a mourning that they would feel over the circumstances, 433 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: like as if they could have stopped it, which I 434 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: think probably everyone knows would not be the case. I 435 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: don't think you could stop this. 436 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 2: You are right. I think experts on this kind of 437 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 2: violence would agree that families they go through these experiences 438 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: are very hard on themselves. They blame themselves, and I 439 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: think this is something that happened to us. There is 440 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: a lot of guilt and there's a lot of shame 441 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: in a mourning process that actually never quite begins. So 442 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 2: because if the story cannot be told, if you cannot 443 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: wrest this story from the patriarchal narrative that essentially involves silencing, 444 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 2: then you cannot mourn properly. Right, So I think that 445 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 2: understanding the mechanisms going through all these different witnesses, looking 446 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 2: at the story from as many perspectives as I was 447 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 2: able to do through interviews and archival research and field 448 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 2: research and all that, I think it finally gives us 449 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 2: an opportunity to articulate the story in a way that 450 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: did not involve blaming the victim and certainly did not 451 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: involve eccenerating the perpetrator. The femicider, as we say in Spanish, 452 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: it's famous. See that. Interestingly enough, there is not a 453 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: word in English that fully translates this one, femsida. So 454 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,719 Speaker 2: I'm getting to say lately the word femicider, which is 455 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: you know, it would be the closer translation. The word 456 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 2: is not necessarily in vogue or in use in the 457 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: American English. But I think that as we see domestic 458 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 2: violence cases grow also in the United States, even enough 459 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 2: to be called a siling epidemic, I think that the 460 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: language as to adapt to and perhaps just by calling 461 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 2: the killer a femicider, we will be contributing to create 462 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 2: more awareness about a violence that is pretty much a 463 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: problem across the world. 464 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about your pursuit of Ramos. Did you 465 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: have help from the police in Mexico City thirty years 466 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: later or do you still feel like the same attitude 467 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: about femicide is pervasive within the police department in Mexico 468 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: all over the country. 469 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, look, fortunately or unfortunately, the number of femicides 470 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: is growing so much in Mexico. The data is well 471 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 2: known about ten women are killed in Mexico on a 472 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: daily basis, and there is now a unit of femicides 473 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: specifically devoted to femicides in Mexico City. And the unit 474 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 2: is led by a lawyer that I admire very much. Sayurira, 475 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: that's her name, and so I've had long conversations with 476 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: herd that have been extremely useful. That doesn't mean that 477 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 2: other areas of General Attorney's Office are equally concerned or 478 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: even efficient about justice. When I published the book, I 479 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 2: created a Gmail account. When I published the book in Spanish, 480 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: I should say in every interview that I gave, I 481 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: mentioned that I was going to be using this Gmail 482 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 2: account to receive tips or any kind of information than 483 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: my leaders to these consale lums. Eventually, I learned one 484 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 2: of these anonymous sources sent me a link and that 485 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 2: took me to a funeral, a digital funeral of someone 486 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: whose name was michel Angelo Giovanni. These link contained pictures 487 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 2: from Michelle Angelo Giovanni, who had died drowned in southern 488 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: California on May the second, twenty twenty. The pictures belonged 489 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: to him. In my view, I communicated with the police 490 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 2: in Mexico because, regardless of what I believed, this is 491 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: something that they should be able to confirm. I was 492 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 2: told that they were going to do all they could 493 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 2: in order to confirm this information. This happened more or 494 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 2: less a year and a half ago, and to this 495 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: day I have not received any kind of information regarding 496 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 2: this case. 497 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: Did you reach out to Ramos's family in Mexico after 498 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: this happened or was that something you just wanted to 499 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: stay away from. 500 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 2: I wanted to stay away from that because. 501 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: It was part of the active investigation exactly. 502 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 2: It was an active investigation, and I didn't want to 503 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 2: interfere with that. 504 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: So what's the next step? Is there a next step 505 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: if we are assuming that Giovanni is Ramos and he 506 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: is dead, never seen justice for Liliana's murder in that way, 507 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: if we assume that, is there any bit of closure 508 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: for your family at all? 509 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 2: That's such a good question, and I'm glad I mentioned 510 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: earlier as Sayuriaretra the lawyer, because once I learned about 511 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: this possibility that the killer had died, I was, as 512 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 2: you can imagine, very distraught, and that was a situation 513 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: that was not expecting. I was not expecting that. So 514 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 2: I talked to Sayuriaretta in something that she said, and 515 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 2: for me it was very important to hear there are 516 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: other aspects of justice. Justice is not only punitive in 517 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 2: the law of victims. This is a law that exists 518 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: in Mexico. It's equally important the issue of memory and 519 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 2: truth and the restitution of that. And I think, obviously 520 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 2: we're not going to get Lillana back, but is extremely 521 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: important just to be able to have the truth, and 522 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 2: in this case, her truth, her perspective, her view on 523 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 2: this full story, and for us to be able to 524 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: fully mourn her death and to build a collective memory 525 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 2: of Lilliano Rivera Garza among us. This is not a 526 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 2: minor dead. This is where a mourning that was forcibly 527 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: silenced has become a collective practice. So the more people 528 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 2: remember Lilliana, the more her name is pronounced in public 529 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: spheres in life, the more she is she remains with us, 530 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: and I think that's very important for me, for my family, 531 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 2: for those of us who believe that the dead continue, 532 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: that some part of them continue to be materially close 533 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 2: to us. 534 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,720 Speaker 1: I understand I think now the impact of the book 535 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: on you and your family and you personally, as this 536 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: experience of becoming closer with your sister and like you said, 537 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: putting her name out there so that there can be 538 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: some healing. Was there any unexpected benefit of this book? 539 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: Do you think, as far as the narrative that we've 540 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: been talking about, where you actually see people and hear 541 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: people saying this book could make a difference in this country. 542 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 2: I was not expecting that, to be honest with you, 543 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: and I've been so pleasantly surprised by the way in 544 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 2: which young women specifically but in general readers of the 545 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 2: book have embraced Lilliana. She's been part of international women's 546 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 2: stay demonstrations, her name is being graffited on different places 547 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: on walls of Mexico City. Not long ago, I visited 548 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,800 Speaker 2: Wadalajara in Mexico, where a very important book fair takes 549 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 2: place every year, and students from different high schools, having 550 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 2: read the book, organized a demonstration a procession of sorts 551 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 2: throughout the city, just honoring her name and honoring her life. 552 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 2: And so I think she would have been very happy 553 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 2: just to learn that her experience might be illuminating to others, 554 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 2: that might help others to articulate their own stories, to 555 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: go through experiences that are very hard to enunciate, and 556 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 2: so feeling that embraced, that embraced, it is very real. 557 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 2: I think has been more than I expected. 558 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: In my writing. When I write books, I write about 559 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: crime and history, and a requirement for me is I 560 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: have to have memoirs and journals and letters to feel 561 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 1: closer to the people to really be able to sort 562 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: of rebuild their world. I sometimes feel like I'm invading 563 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: their privacy, and these are people who have died one 564 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: hundred or more years ago. Did you struggle with that 565 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: when you were piecing together this book, that there were 566 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: things that you were reading that clearly no one was 567 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: meant to read except for Lilliana to a certain extent. 568 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: And for me, I try to pack those feelings away 569 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: because I feel like the greater good of what my 570 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: book would do needs this to resonate with people, needs 571 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: these details. Did you feel like that did you really 572 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: struggle at all with publishing any of the things that 573 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: you found. 574 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: That is such an important question. Thank you for asking. 575 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 2: I think it's always very difficult to write about violence, 576 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: precisely because it's such a slippery terrain. It's very easy 577 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 2: to banalyze, to make it banal right, It's very easy 578 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 2: to put so much emphasis on the power of the 579 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 2: perpetrators that you render your victim boiseless and pass it 580 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 2: right there are there are so many ways of getting 581 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 2: this thing wrong, and I think that requires a lot 582 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 2: of ethical attention. Yeah, I had to consider all those possibilities. 583 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 2: And that's the reason why when I was even interviewing people, 584 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 2: I told them I was only going to write whatever 585 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 2: they felt comfortable with. That I would never betray them. 586 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 2: That was essentially my message to them, and I think 587 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 2: I was. There was a conversation that I had with 588 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 2: my sister while I was writing this book. I essentially 589 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 2: felt her presence very close to me. I felt her, 590 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 2: you know, her head over my shoulder, kind of saying, oh, no, 591 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 2: that is so cheasy, you don't write that. She was 592 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 2: always against this kind of excessive expression of sentimentality and 593 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 2: things like that. 594 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: She doesn't like flourishes. 595 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That's another reason why I asked my parents 596 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 2: too that because this is this is her life, but 597 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 2: this is our life as well, is the life of 598 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 2: a community. So I tried to make sure as much 599 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 2: as I could that I was serving the book as such, 600 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 2: but mostly that I was serving this community that was 601 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 2: surrounding Liliana and protecting Liliana as well. I wanted her 602 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 2: to be the true protagonist of this book, and that's 603 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 2: the reason why my presence in the book is very discreet. 604 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 2: I didn't want to editorialize Lilliana. I didn't want to 605 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 2: assume that I knew more than she knew at that time. 606 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 2: But at the same time, I didn't want to leave 607 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 2: her all alone by herself in the book, so I 608 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 2: had to incorporate myself just in order to be as 609 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 2: vulnerable as she was becoming with the very writing of 610 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 2: the book. So those were my ways of dealing with 611 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: with this issue that is so important. The one is 612 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: an ethical issue, and to me, both the aesthetics of 613 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 2: the book and the ethics of the book are interwoven. 614 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 2: They're equally relevant. So asking that question was what I 615 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 2: did every single day that I wrote the book, and 616 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 2: it is embedded in every single paragraph of that book, 617 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 2: and the selection of words, the scenes that made it 618 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 2: into the book and the ones that didn't because some 619 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 2: didn't of course, and all that selection. It's very much 620 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 2: related to the care with which I wanted to approach Leana. Now. 621 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: Oftentimes, when I'm reading a journal or a memoir or 622 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: something and that's going into my book from the protagonist, 623 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: from the main person in the book, there's a phrase 624 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: or an anecdote or something that just echoes with me. 625 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: Was there anything like that in her writings that sort 626 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: of echoed to you as the theme that resonated with 627 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: you as sort of It's like, these lines are what 628 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: defined my sister and her vivaciousness or the theme of 629 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: her life. 630 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 2: She spoke of freedom very very often. Freedom and a 631 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 2: new kind of love, said us several times. Other kind 632 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 2: of love should be possible. And I think those two components, 633 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 2: freedom and love, are which he's leaving us with after 634 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 2: reading the book, the importance of both. 635 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 636 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 637 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 638 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis a Morosi. Our 639 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: associate producer is Alex ch This episode was mixed by 640 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis heath Is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. 641 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. 642 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 643 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you 644 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,760 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could you some attention 645 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 646 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll also take your 647 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words