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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Kate, how are you today?

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Speaker 1: I'm great? How about you?

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Speaker 3: I am hanging in there.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've got my Monster energy drink, getting my

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Speaker 2: caffeine in, getting ready to have you bamboozle me again

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Speaker 2: with another case.

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Speaker 1: You know, what I've noticed a trend is that you

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Speaker 1: are less whiskey these days and more monster or cop

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Speaker 1: or whatever else you're drinking. I think I'm having a

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Speaker 1: positive influence on you, or am I wrong and there's

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Speaker 1: something else happening.

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Speaker 2: Well, of course you're having a positive influence on me.

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Speaker 3: Look at that.

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Speaker 1: Good. Well, I have a serious question that I don't

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Speaker 1: think you and I have talked about yet. We're of

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Speaker 1: course not surprising here we're going into a very old case.

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Speaker 1: What is the oldest case that you have really dug into?

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Speaker 1: I know you've been, you know, kind of a consultant

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Speaker 1: on like the case you and I met on, which

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Speaker 1: is the nineteen twenty five Bessie Ferguson case. But what

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Speaker 1: is the one where you spent time anything before the

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Speaker 1: sixties or seventies.

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Speaker 2: Not before the sixties. The oldest case that I looked

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Speaker 2: into in earnest was a nineteen sixty four homicide UC

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Speaker 2: Berkeley professor. I'm not going to say the victim's name

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Speaker 2: because his family is heavily involved in the NFL, but

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Speaker 2: in essence, he looks like he was abducted out of

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Speaker 2: the Berkeley area and then shot and killed and left

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Speaker 2: by Buchanan Airfield out and conquered back in nineteen sixty four.

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Speaker 2: I would have worked older cases, but the reality is

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Speaker 2: we didn't have physical evidence going back before the nineteen sixties.

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Speaker 2: You know, they just weren't keeping the evidence back then.

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Speaker 2: You know, some agencies do across the nation. But what

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Speaker 2: I have found is most agencies do not keep that

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Speaker 2: old evidence or haven't kept it. So I was kind

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Speaker 2: of hamstrung in terms of going back further in time.

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Speaker 2: But nineteen sixty four is the oldest case that I

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Speaker 2: truly did work.

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Speaker 1: When did you work at what year or so however

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Speaker 1: many years later, and then what did you find or

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Speaker 1: contribute in this kidnapping case?

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Speaker 2: You know, this is a case in which there's a

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Speaker 2: strong suspect who was a former student of the professor.

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Speaker 2: He had been arrested, there was a lot of publicity

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Speaker 2: about it, but then was never convicted of the crime.

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Speaker 2: And so my goal was to prove whether or not

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Speaker 2: he was the one truly responsible, or if not, to

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Speaker 2: try to figure out who could be. And so in

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Speaker 2: this particular case, it was really taking a look at

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Speaker 2: the physical evidence that had been collected and what still

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Speaker 2: existed in sheriff's property room. And so I got some

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Speaker 2: forensic testing requested, but ended up leaving the sheriff's office

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Speaker 2: before any of that testing was accomplished. And my sense

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Speaker 2: I've never been updated, but my sense is that they've

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Speaker 2: never done the testing. So you know, it's probably still

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Speaker 2: a mystery in terms of whether or not the student

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Speaker 2: was truly the professor's killer or not.

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Speaker 1: Is the student still around? You might not have even

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Speaker 1: checked in on this since this is such an old

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Speaker 1: case for you, but I mean, is this something that

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Speaker 1: there could still be an arrest if they do run

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Speaker 1: anything on it.

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Speaker 3: No, the student is dead.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's hard. I know you have cases that

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Speaker 1: have loose sins, and I know that happens with investigators.

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Speaker 1: You start something and then it's just I'm sure painful

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Speaker 1: to not be able to see it through. And not

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Speaker 1: only that you're not handing it off to a new investigator.

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Speaker 1: It's just sort of going into the ether and that

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Speaker 1: has to be frustrating what it is.

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Speaker 2: And you know that is typical of these older unsolved

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Speaker 2: cases is that you see investigators that have a passion

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Speaker 2: for them and they resurrect these old cases, but if

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Speaker 2: they don't close the case out, which is more often

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Speaker 2: than not to be frank you know, there's a reason

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Speaker 2: why these cases are unsolved is because they're typically the

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Speaker 2: hardest cases, particularly you know back you know when you

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Speaker 2: start taking a look at nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies

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Speaker 2: where they didn't have modern technology, and then when that

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Speaker 2: investigator gets reassigned as somebody else moves in. They may

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Speaker 2: not have a passion for the cold case. The agency

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Speaker 2: may not have a program in place to keep these

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Speaker 2: unsolved cases moving forward with investigations and forensic testing, and

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Speaker 2: they often just stagnate and go stale again, and that

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Speaker 2: is frustrating.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's one of these things where you know, the family

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Speaker 2: members of the victims, you know, they want an answer,

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Speaker 2: and even after many decades, I have seen this firsthand

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Speaker 2: over and over again, these family members the loss of

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Speaker 2: their loved one was like it happened yesterday, even though

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Speaker 2: it may have happened forty years ago. They still want

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Speaker 2: an answer. And some of them want justice, you know,

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Speaker 2: they want the offender to actually pay for the crime.

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Speaker 2: You know, So it is frustrating. It's just it takes

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Speaker 2: a certain personality to have an interest in these these

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Speaker 2: older cases, and I've seen it. There's select individuals that

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Speaker 2: have the passion, like myself, have the aptitude for these

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Speaker 2: older cases because they're typically very complex, and then others,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're more interested in working the gang bang homicides,

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Speaker 2: you know, doing the you know, the active cases, and

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Speaker 2: it's just hit or miss you know, and whoever gets

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Speaker 2: assigned to these unsolved cases if at all.

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Speaker 1: Well, and one of the things we've talked about is

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Speaker 1: we've had these cases where the heroes at the very

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Speaker 1: end forty or fifty years later are these retired investigators, prosecutors,

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Speaker 1: you know, investigators for the DA's office, private investigators. We've

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Speaker 1: just read about all groups coming together and forming these

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Speaker 1: cold case squads where they volunteer, they're not being paid. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so these are the people we really like, you these

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Speaker 1: are the people who the consultants, who really are the

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Speaker 1: ones that seem to break these cases. It's great for

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Speaker 1: us to be able to talk about those on the show.

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Speaker 2: Well, and that's you know, that is an underutilized resource

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Speaker 2: because there are a lot of retired investigators out there

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Speaker 2: that you know, they have all this experience and expertise,

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Speaker 2: but when they offer their services, many agencies don't take

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Speaker 2: them up on it, you know, and so they're just

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Speaker 2: kind of stuck. Because you need to have the law

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Speaker 2: enforcement agencies' willingness to bring on these retirees, even if

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Speaker 2: it's in a voluntary basis. You think, well, that's a

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Speaker 2: no brainer, but so many agencies just don't want to

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Speaker 2: deal with it there, it's like, well, those old cases,

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Speaker 2: that's just going to cause us more work and we

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Speaker 2: have to focus on what public safety issues are happening

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I love about this show before

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Speaker 1: we move on to our case, is that I hope

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Speaker 1: it gets people interested in history in these old cases.

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Speaker 1: And it is always my biggest challenge to have the victims,

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Speaker 1: even the killers, and the families kind of come to

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Speaker 1: life and so we can relate to them. And my

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Speaker 1: hope is that you hear these people, you know, these people,

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Speaker 1: hear us, the ones who have the skills you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: and say, oh wow, I mean I really I could

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Speaker 1: see myself getting into some of these cases from the

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Speaker 1: fifties and the sixties that you and I talk about.

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Speaker 1: That it's sort of inspiring because these were real people.

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Speaker 1: They had the same problems we do, some of them bigger,

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Speaker 1: some of them smaller. They kill for the same reasons,

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Speaker 1: they're victims for the same reasons, and so with this

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Speaker 1: case coming up, you will see a lot of parallels

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Speaker 1: between life now and life then. So you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: really interested to see what you think about. This is

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Speaker 1: a doozy of a case boy a doubleheader for us,

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Speaker 1: so I'll be interested in seeing what you think of it.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene. Let me just start with

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Speaker 1: a trigger warning. I try to do these as much

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Speaker 1: as we can. This is around domestic violence, so you know,

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Speaker 1: moving ahead, that's something that we're going to be talking about.

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Speaker 1: This is nineteen hundred and it is set in Iowa,

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Speaker 1: but we have to go back a little bit to Scotland,

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Speaker 1: probably one of my most favorite countries ever. So there

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Speaker 1: is a woman named Margaret Murchison who was born in

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Speaker 1: Scotland in eighteen forty three, and when she was five

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Speaker 1: years old, she and her family moved to the United

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Speaker 1: States and they settled in Illinois. That's where her father

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Speaker 1: began to operate a farm and when she is introduced

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Speaker 1: to a man who would change her life forever. In

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Speaker 1: sixty eight, when she was about twenty five, she marries

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Speaker 1: one of her father's farm hands. His name was John

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Speaker 1: Hassick and he was also from Scotland. This would not

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Speaker 1: be surprising, you know, people from the same country congregating together, meeting.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea whether or not her father would

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Speaker 1: have approved of this match. His daughter marrying a farm hand.

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Speaker 1: But it happened, and when the two of them got married,

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Speaker 1: Margaret and John moved to Warren County, Iowa, and Margaret

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Speaker 1: gave birth to their first child, Alex, in August of

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty eight. So, doing the math, I'm not great

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Speaker 1: at mathing, but doing the very simple math, they were

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Speaker 1: married in January of eighteen sixty eight. They got married

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Speaker 1: seven months later. We're already starting to think that maybe

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Speaker 1: they had to get married because she was clearly pregnant beforehand.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and now, of course I have to just try

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Speaker 2: to figure out, you know, this geographic aspect. So it

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Speaker 2: looks like Warren County is just south of Des Moines,

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Speaker 2: I think, so it's rural southeest, particularly in eighteen sixty eight.

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Speaker 3: Right, oh yeah, all right?

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Speaker 2: And then now, now remind me because I was looking

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Speaker 2: up just the geographic thing. So what happened when they

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Speaker 2: first got married.

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Speaker 1: So they got married in January of eighteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 1: she gave birth to their first child, Alex, a boy,

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Speaker 1: in August. It sounds like they were pregnant before they

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Speaker 1: got married, which would have not been a very good

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Speaker 1: thing in the mid eighteen hundreds. So there is a

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Speaker 1: possibility that they were in love, but there is also

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Speaker 1: a good possibility that they got married because they had

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Speaker 1: to get married.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So obviously if they were forced into marriage, this

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Speaker 2: could cause tension because neither one of them wants to

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Speaker 2: be together. But because of the pregnancy and now the sun,

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Speaker 2: they're kind of stuck.

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Speaker 1: They are very stuck. And again, you know, this is

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Speaker 1: something we'll learn a little bit more later on, but

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Speaker 1: I will say they went on to have nine children

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Speaker 1: total of ten children over the next two decades. Also

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Speaker 1: not surprising for me in rural Iowa in this time period,

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Speaker 1: but it's something that they had a very long marriage.

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Speaker 1: I have a family photo, which is unusual. I want

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Speaker 1: to show you the family photo in a second. Nine

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Speaker 1: of the ten kids survived to adulthood, which is pretty

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Speaker 1: impressive odds. But again, ten children, maybe they didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be married to begin with. Does not seem like

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Speaker 1: a great start to a marriage or a continuation of

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Speaker 1: a marriage. We don't know yet, right.

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Speaker 2: You know, And this is something that I've run into,

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Speaker 2: you know, doing the genealogy for casework and going back

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Speaker 2: and looking at families back in the mid eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 3: This was typical. They would have.

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Speaker 2: Ten to fifteen kids, and then of course up to

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Speaker 2: maybe a handful of the kids never either survived the

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Speaker 2: childbirth or never you know, grew up into adulthood, which

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Speaker 2: it's just the sign of the times. But for them,

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Speaker 2: they had nine of their ten kids survive to adulthood,

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Speaker 2: So that's pretty impressive.

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Speaker 1: And they have a farm, and we'll talk about that

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Speaker 1: in a minute, and that's helpful. Kids are helpful on

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Speaker 1: a farm. They all worked on the farm. Let me

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Speaker 1: show you the family photo so you can describe what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing. But it's the parents sitting down and then

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Speaker 1: everybody else standing up in front of what looks to

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Speaker 1: be like a farmhouse exactly.

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Speaker 2: So I see this family. They're all well dressed. The

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Speaker 2: men are in the equivalent of suits, the women appear

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Speaker 2: to have dresses on. The mother and father are seated

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Speaker 2: in front with the children of varying ages. It looks

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Speaker 2: like there's quite a span of age from the oldest

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Speaker 2: appearing to be an adult woman, to a young boy

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Speaker 2: possibly five six, maybe eight years old, all standing on

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Speaker 2: the front lawn in front of this house. I think

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Speaker 2: what stands out to me is the spacing you know

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Speaker 2: that the kids are. It's like it's almost like three

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Speaker 2: feet in between each kid. You know, it's not like

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Speaker 2: they're close together like they're showing, you know, they an

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Speaker 2: emotional connection.

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Speaker 3: They look like they're very apart, you know.

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Speaker 2: And part of the complexity of taking pictures, and this

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Speaker 2: picture was taken in eighteen ninety two, per the footer

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Speaker 2: associated with it, you know, is that the film, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is old style photography, and so the exposure had

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Speaker 2: to be long, and so when the photographer is saying, okay,

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Speaker 2: the picture is going to be taken, you know, everybody

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Speaker 2: has to freeze for a long period of time. It's

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Speaker 2: not like modern photography where now you have a fast

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Speaker 2: shutter speed. You know, these shutter speeds had to be

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Speaker 2: pretty slow, so they all had to be static like this.

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Speaker 2: And you see the one boy, you know, he's looking

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Speaker 2: off to the right. He's not even looking at the camera,

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Speaker 2: which is.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're so easily distracted.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, squirrel, So yeah, it is. It is a

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Speaker 2: little bit odd for a family portrait. You'd think they

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Speaker 2: would be closer together. I'm not sure that is any

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Speaker 2: indicator in terms of what this family feels about each other.

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Speaker 2: If the photographer was just telling him, hey, you know,

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Speaker 2: spread out, you know, I need to fill the frame.

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Speaker 1: They might. And to me what I noticed all also

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Speaker 1: was the home is perfectly framed, so it looks like

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Speaker 1: they really, I mean, they were shooting from kind of

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Speaker 1: down below. It looks like they really wanted to get

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Speaker 1: that farmhouse in. And this is also kind of an

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Speaker 1: unusual photo for me because late eighteen hundreds you had

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Speaker 1: to have some money to have this done, and normally

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Speaker 1: you're seeing portraits Like when we were looking through my

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Speaker 1: family's farmhouse, which is from the eighteen seventies, we found

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Speaker 1: portraits from the eighteen hundreds, perfectly beautiful portraits. This is

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Speaker 1: almost sort of like a you know, on the scene

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Speaker 1: checking like a real estate photo in some ways. So

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Speaker 1: this was interesting for me to see it. But the

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Speaker 1: range of ages here, it looks like you've got what

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Speaker 1: between the parents, maybe a four or five year old,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure about the boys age all the way

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Speaker 1: up to at least three or four full on adult children.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And I guess because I was looking

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Speaker 2: at the woman on the right, who's in this full dress,

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Speaker 2: and I was thinking, okay, that must be the oldest child.

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Speaker 3: But they're first born was a son, Alex, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I'm a little confused because they don't

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Speaker 1: have Alex here.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's true. And then so and I'm almost wondering

295
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Speaker 2: if this woman that I'm seeing maybe she's like a

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Speaker 2: nanny or you know, some sort of help that they've hired.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, this is saying the whole family. It

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Speaker 1: looks like Alex is missing, but we have everybody else.

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Speaker 1: We've got eight kids, and then John and Margaret are

300
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Speaker 1: the ones that are seated, and there's a little boy,

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Speaker 1: Fivan in between. I think these are all family members. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so that's a lot of kids. Ten kids.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's a lot of kids.

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Speaker 1: Now, tell me what you think, because what's going to

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Speaker 1: happen next happens inside this house. I know, it's really

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Speaker 1: hard to get a perspective on a house. This actually

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Speaker 1: looks strangely like our farmhouse, you know, kind of a

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Speaker 1: put together. There's you know, there's a two story on

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Speaker 1: the right, maybe a two story on the left too,

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Speaker 1: I guess, but I wouldn't call it sprawling, but it's

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Speaker 1: definitely roomy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I can kind of visualize it's it's

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Speaker 2: a two story house, gable roofed. You know that you

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Speaker 2: have the in essence a ninety degree joining of the

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Speaker 2: two stories. You know, so I can see from the

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Speaker 2: where the door is, you go off the front door is,

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Speaker 2: you go off to the left, probably have either a

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Speaker 2: living room or a kitchen area. I see a chimney

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Speaker 2: up above that side of the house, you know, is

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Speaker 2: that coming from the first floor the second floor?

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Speaker 3: Who knows?

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Speaker 2: And then from the front door you go to the right,

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Speaker 2: and it appears that you also have on the first

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Speaker 2: floor probably one or two more possible spaces rooms. And

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Speaker 2: then there's got to be a staircase that leads up

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Speaker 2: to the second floor. And I imagine, since it appears

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Speaker 2: that the windows indicate the height of the room, is

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Speaker 2: that the second floor the rooms up there, the roof

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Speaker 2: is so slanted that, you know, it's not just a

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Speaker 2: flat roof. Each of these rooms would probably have kind

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Speaker 2: of like peaked ceilings, you know, whether there's attic space

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Speaker 2: up there or maybe there's bedrooms up there, you know.

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Speaker 2: Right now, I don't know, but it appears that there's

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Speaker 2: two chimneys. One that's from the front door, that would

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Speaker 2: be to the left, either on the first or second

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Speaker 2: floor of the house, and then one to the right

337
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Speaker 2: of the front door, either on the first or second floor.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the questions will be who can

339
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 1: hear what when the thing that happens happens. In this case,

340
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Speaker 1: this is a pretty good size farmhouse, so as we

341
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Speaker 1: go through it, I just wanted you to see physically

342
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Speaker 1: that there are some adults here besides the parents, there

343
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Speaker 1: are also little kids, and also that this is a

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Speaker 1: good size house. So let's move forward with the story here.

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Speaker 1: Over time, John becomes a pretty big deal in Warren County.

346
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Speaker 1: He's a farmer. He has a lot of influence beyond

347
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Speaker 1: the family's farming operation too. According to the Iowa Cold

348
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Speaker 1: Case website, he took a leadership role in the church,

349
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Speaker 1: He ran for political office, He served as a trustee

350
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Speaker 1: of the county. The blanket description I would use as

351
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Speaker 1: sort of trusted member of society.

352
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Speaker 2: So he's he's obviously somebody that is integrated within the community,

353
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Speaker 2: both on the religious and political side. I'm sure the

354
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Speaker 2: other citizens within that community look up to him potentially,

355
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,679
Speaker 2: you know, as a leading figure in the community, but

356
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:27,680
Speaker 2: also anybody who's leading figure, has their detractors. So I'm

357
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 2: sure just because of you know, his positions, you know,

358
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 2: he's he's got a fair amount of angst, you know,

359
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 2: love and angst within the various members of the community.

360
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, big family, big farmer, probably lots of stress. We

361
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Speaker 1: don't know yet the background of his marriage to Margaret,

362
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,639
Speaker 1: how that went, but for now we know that John

363
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 1: is widely considered to be generally somebody who is, you know,

364
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Speaker 1: important in this community. I want to give a little

365
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Speaker 1: bit of a caveat here. There's a book that we'll

366
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: refer to called The Midnight Assassin. This is not my

367
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,400
Speaker 1: buddy Skip Hollinsworth's book about the Servant Girl Annihilator, which

368
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 1: you and I talked about that happened in Austin, Texas

369
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,040
Speaker 1: in the eighteen nineties. This is not that book. It's

370
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Speaker 1: confusing because it's the same kind of books such as

371
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Speaker 1: No Going Forward. When I say Midnight Assassin book, that's

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Is this case?

374
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's get back to John. I have not

375
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: talked about whether John is a killer or a victim

376
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 1: or has nothing to do with this case, and it

377
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,200
Speaker 1: involves the kids. We just know things happen in this house.

378
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,360
Speaker 1: But for context. John might seem like this wonderful community

379
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,399
Speaker 1: leader on the outside, but he has a much darker

380
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,919
Speaker 1: side that many many people know about. Neighbors, no friends,

381
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,680
Speaker 1: no family knows. He's abusive. He is temperamental and more

382
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:53,119
Speaker 1: than just crabby, he is erratic. He has verbally and

383
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 1: physically attacked people in the family to a point where

384
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 1: people in the family had wondered if they should commit

385
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 1: him to a mental health facility better known in the

386
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,959
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds is an asylum, which is very serious. Neighbors

387
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 1: even intervened in some bouts of domestic violence at the

388
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 1: family home, and Margaret, the wife, was often a target. Again,

389
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,439
Speaker 1: if we're thinking about this, is John a potential victim

390
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,439
Speaker 1: or a potential killer? It's kind of up in the

391
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 1: air right now, because he could be either. Right from

392
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Speaker 1: what you know about domestic violence.

393
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 2: Well, when you say John as a victim, are you

394
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 2: talking about he's a victim of mental health situations or

395
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 2: is he potentially also being physically abused within this.

396
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 1: House somebody who if we're looking at who is going

397
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 1: to get murdered and somebody will be murdered. Is he

398
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: going to be a victim or a killer or we

399
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: don't know, because the possibility with somebody who is abusive

400
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 1: to their family, could I think go either way. But

401
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: what do you think, Well, no.

402
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 2: For sure, because you know, if he's being abusive to

403
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: Margaret and she has ended family in the area or

404
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 2: friends that are looking out for her, you know, they

405
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: may take justice into their own hands, or the kids

406
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 2: possibly could you know. I've got a case that I

407
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 2: rolled out on. This was a situation where the homicide

408
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 2: victim was abusive to his wife and the oldest son

409
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: took the situation of his own hands and killed his dad.

410
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 2: So you know that's part of the DV spectrum of

411
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 2: what happens, you know. So here we have in this case,

412
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 2: we have John being abusive to Margaret, and you know,

413
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 2: if John ends up being a victim of homicide, then

414
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,120
Speaker 2: there's going to be several suspect pools that right off

415
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 2: the bat just form. In terms of the investigative process,

416
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 2: it must.

417
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: Be difficult, I would guess from your point of view

418
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: to roll out on these cases where you know, after

419
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: gathering information that the victim was abusive and you aren't

420
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: sure what's going to happen to the killer, even though

421
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: we know the victim was abusive and maybe this was

422
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 1: self defense or maybe it wasn't. But doesn't it just

423
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 1: become really muddy. There's no good guys or bad guys here.

424
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: It's like, what do you do with a victim who

425
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 1: was not a good person?

426
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: These are the hard decisions that have to be made.

427
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 2: You know, from my role, whether it be as a

428
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: CSI or let's say a forensic scientist, I never investigated

429
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: this type of case personally, you know, but it's you

430
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 2: do your job, you know. So the facts are presented

431
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: to ultimately to the district attorney's office, and now the

432
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: prosecutors are the ones that have to make that tough decision.

433
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 2: They know, let's say the abuser who's a homicide victim.

434
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 2: The victimology is this is a deplorable person, you know.

435
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: And let's say the wife is the one that killed

436
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: her husband. Well, oftentimes the wife does that to save

437
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 2: her own life because she eventually possibly could be a

438
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 2: homicide victim due to the abuse that she is receiving.

439
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: But you still have a crime. You know, somebody's life

440
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: has been taken, and if it's not in a heat

441
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: of the moment self defense situation where let's say the

442
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 2: abusive victim is physically attacking the killer. In this case,

443
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,479
Speaker 2: the husband and wife is the hypothetical that I'm going

444
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 2: to be putting out there, and the wife kills her

445
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: abuser during this physical attack, Well there's an argument for

446
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 2: self defense. But like in the one case I brought

447
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: up that I rolled out on, the abusive husband was

448
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: asleep in his bed when he was shot in the.

449
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: Back of his head.

450
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 2: So now it's like, well, you understand why this abusive

451
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 2: husband is being killed, but it's a crime, you know,

452
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: And it's a tough decision that these prosecutors have to

453
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 2: make in terms of, well we have do we have

454
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: to prosecute?

455
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 3: But at what do we charge? You know? So it

456
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 3: is a it's a tough situation all the way around.

457
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: Well, I have to tell you, I can't believe you

458
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: just use that example. Oh, because let's move through it.

459
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving the nineteen hundred, everything seems okay. Of course, okay

460
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: to the neighbors is different than okay to this family.

461
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: They had a big Thanksgiving dinner. Everything seemed to be

462
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: okay with them, but just two days later, somebody dies

463
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: we are at December first. It's Iowa, so I'm assuming

464
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: very cold nineteen hundred. John and Margaret are asleep in

465
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: a tiny bed four feet wide and smaller than a

466
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: modern full size bed, which I know couples who can

467
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: sleep in a full sized bed together, Not so much me.

468
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 1: I need a king even by myself, same same good God.

469
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: John is crammed up by the wall. Margaret's on the

470
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: outside of the bed. She has jolted away. About midnight,

471
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 1: she hears a sharp sound like the striking of two

472
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: boards together, something like that. She sees a light flashing

473
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: on a wall, just like a passing light, and the

474
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: sound of a door closing. She hops out of bed.

475
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: She runs out of the room. She does not look

476
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: at John because she's moving right out of the room.

477
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: She's on the outside of the bed, not the inside.

478
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 1: From the hallway, she calls out to the oldest boys.

479
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: She thinks somebody's broken into this house. She runs back

480
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: into the bedroom to get her husband. She calls his name.

481
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: He doesn't answer. John is the victim.

482
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 2: So it sounds like you have an offender who came

483
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 2: in shot him. That's that loud board sounds like two

484
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: boards clapping together with this passing light, which would be

485
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 2: the muzzle flash, is my guess, and then the offender left. Obviously,

486
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: if I'm right, and John was shot, you know, the

487
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: offender came in while the couple was sleeping, specifically targeted

488
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 2: John and preserved Margaret. You know, Margaret was not the focus,

489
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: you know, So that's informative in terms of the offender's motive.

490
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: It's going specifically after John.

491
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to go through this right now from

492
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: the kid's supposed point of view, and then we'll talk

493
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 1: about the investigator and the corner and all of that.

494
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: So the kids come in and they realize that John

495
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 1: is still alive but very injured. They're not moving him around,

496
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: they're not trying to figure out what his wounds are,

497
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: whether it was a gun or anything else. They're looking

498
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: at him. The tiny little bed is covered in blood,

499
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: and they ask John, who did this to you? He

500
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,719
Speaker 1: is in a daze, and he says, I'm fine, I

501
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: am just sick. That is it? Everything is okay. There's

502
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: blood everywhere. Paul So with a head injury, which it

503
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: looks like the kids can say, his head looks bloody.

504
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: Does that surprise you that he denies somebody did something,

505
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: either shot him or whacked him with something. Is that surprising.

506
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: Well, he may be completely unaware as to what happened.

507
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: You know, if he had been asleep and whether he

508
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: shot in the head or let's say he's hit on

509
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 2: the head. Either can produce a fairly large amount of

510
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: blood and blood pooling on the bed. But he's awake

511
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: and with the you know, potential brain damage, you know,

512
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: he's just not truly able to assess what his injuries are.

513
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: You know, he may be waking up and have a

514
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: headache and going, I just don't feel good. I'm sick, guys,

515
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 2: you know, go back to bed, not realizing that.

516
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 3: He's what I'm assuming is mortally injured.

517
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that that was what was interesting

518
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: to me when I read that reaction. It's okay. I

519
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: remember a story and I I can't remember the man's

520
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: last name. A man and his wife are shot. It

521
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: turns out to be by the sun. The woman is dead.

522
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: He has I think a bullet lodged in his brain,

523
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: and he goes about his daily business. They could see

524
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: the trail of blood he goes in shaves. Yeah, they

525
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: see it. Go downstairs. I think he gets coffee. So

526
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: it's sad, but I'm fascinated by that reaction.

527
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: No, and this is a this is a common misconception,

528
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: is that if somebody a shot in the head that

529
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: they are it's lights out. Sometimes it is, you know,

530
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: it depends on you know, of course, the extent of

531
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: the damage to the brain, but it really comes down to, well,

532
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: what structures in the brain have been damaged, if you

533
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,479
Speaker 2: know what did the bullet hit. I always use this

534
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: example because people, you know, what they know is what

535
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: they see in the movies. But you know, I've got

536
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: cases in which people have been shot in the head

537
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: and they're running off. I've got a trail of blood

538
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: before they coll You think about the you know, this

539
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: is classic in psychology textbooks.

540
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 3: Phineas gauge railroad worker.

541
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: And he ends up, you know, there's you know, kind

542
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 2: of this explosion and he has this railroad rod. I

543
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: forget exactly what it was, but it was driven up

544
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: underneath his chin and came out the top of his head.

545
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: He remained conscious. The physician that looked at him was

546
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 2: able to stick one finger up the entry wound and

547
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: one finger into the exit wound.

548
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 3: And touching between you know, and.

549
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: Now I remember this story, Paul.

550
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 3: But Phineas Gauge was able to function.

551
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: But you know, because he's in the psychology books, is

552
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: because of the you know, the structure of the brain.

553
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: He basically, in essence, I wouldn't say it was truly

554
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: a lobotomy, but he turned from a god fearing, very

555
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: nice publicly you know, community type guy into this rebel rouser,

556
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: you know, as a result of the brain damage. But

557
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: he had this man massive damage you know, to his brain,

558
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: but was able to stay conscious, motor functions, you'll walk around,

559
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: and in essence carry on with his life even though

560
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: his personality had changed. So now when you start talking

561
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: about like John's reaction, and right now you haven't told

562
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: me whether he's been shot or whether he's you know,

563
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: been hit in the head, But it sounds like, with

564
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: the amount of blood on the bread on the bed,

565
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: it sounds like he does have a significant head injury.

566
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: And I'm not surprised that he's able to verbalize, you know,

567
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: to his family, and nor am I surprised that he

568
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: is not cognizant of the extent of his own injuries.

569
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting, So the older children live elsewhere. They're adults,

570
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: but there are five younger children. When they say younger,

571
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that means high school age or

572
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 1: if that's their definition of actually older. But the kids

573
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: in the house are on the younger. So we only

574
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: know what people in this house who are not John

575
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: are saying. Between midnight and four thirty am, Margaret sends

576
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: one of the kids to the neighbors for help, and

577
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: a local physician who's a guy named doctor William Dean,

578
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: doesn't come until four thirty. We don't know yet if

579
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: she delayed it and you know he came immediately, or

580
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: this is how long. I think it's probably the second one.

581
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: This is how long it could have taken for a

582
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: physician to travel and for them to track somebody down

583
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: and wake him up and everything. He was still alive

584
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: almost five hours later. So does that right now tell

585
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: you anything about his injuries?

586
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 3: He was sitting up.

587
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: They had propped him up, and he had his head

588
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: in cloths and there were pillows behind him to keep

589
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: him up. He couldn't move, but the bedding around him

590
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: was drenched with his blood. So what does that scene

591
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: tell you? If you are doctor William Dean just arriving

592
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: and seeing this man who probably should be dead at

593
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: this point.

594
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: Well, if John is bleeding from his head, then obviously

595
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: he suffered a significant head wound. Now it could just

596
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: be superficial, you know, in terms of let's say he's

597
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: hit on the head with something akin to a two

598
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: by four, because his head is on I'm assuming like

599
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: a pillow and a mattress, you have this absorbent substrate

600
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: that will absorb some of the energy from the blow

601
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: from this bludgeoning weapon. And it's possible the skull remains intact,

602
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: but you have laceration to the scalp, and the scalp

603
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 2: bleeds like crazy. But this would be a non fatal

604
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: type of injury. Potentially, now you could have due to

605
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: that impact, even though the skull is not fractured, you

606
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: could have internal hemorrhaging inside the subarachnoid hemorrhaging due to

607
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: the forces on the brain as a result of the blow.

608
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: And then he slowly, in essence, will die as this

609
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: hemorrhaging starts putting pressure on the brain, the brain stem.

610
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: So there's that side of the spectrum. If I'm assuming

611
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: John ends up being a homicide victim, So he may

612
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: have something in which on the surface appears to be

613
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: relatively superficial it's just maybe a scalp laceration, but has

614
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: some internal injuries inside the skull that ultimately kills him.

615
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: Or he could be shot in the head there's an

616
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: entry wound, maybe there's an exit wound, you know. But

617
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: again it depends on what the bullet has struck in

618
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: terms of the brain's anatomy as well as the blood supply.

619
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 2: If you're not injuring the various major blood vessels inside

620
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: the skull, inside the brain, it's possible that his bleeding

621
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: is slower and so he's able to survive for a

622
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 2: longer period of time than what we see with maybe

623
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: a more you know, more modern weapon with you know,

624
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: like a three fifty seven magdum that has a lot

625
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: of that is devastating in terms of what happens to

626
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: somebody who's been shot in the head with that type

627
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 2: of weapon.

628
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: I like you was really reading closely to what Margaret described,

629
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: and she ends up giving this description to William Dean,

630
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: the doctor that we already talked about. This a sharp sound,

631
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: like the striking of two boards together, something like that.

632
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: A light flashing on the wall and just sort of

633
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: like a passing light and the sound of a door closing.

634
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: So when she says that to William Dean, the doctor,

635
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: he is I think in his head thinking, oh, this

636
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: guy's been shot.

637
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:34,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

638
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: He comes over, He looks at John. He's all wrapped up.

639
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 1: He says, John is sweaty. He has a weak pulse,

640
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: which isn't surprising. He unwraps the cloths around John's head,

641
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: around his neck. This is what he says, and this

642
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: is quoting from doctor Dean. The right side of the head,

643
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: several inches above the ear, had been both deeply cut

644
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: and severely crushed. It seemed like John had been hit twice,

645
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: his head first struck with a sharp blade and his

646
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: skull then fractured by a blow from a blunt instrument. Okay,

647
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: now I can then tell you the physical reaction, which

648
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: is graphic. But I will also point out if you

649
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: ask me, how do they know it was an axe.

650
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if they knew it was an axe.

651
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: They found an axe, and this might have been a

652
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: putting two and two together, but that is initially what

653
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,439
Speaker 1: Dean said. He did not find a bullet. It does

654
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: not seem like he was shot, which seems odd with

655
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: what Margaret said.

656
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: Well not necessarily.

657
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: Okay, So you know you have this loud clapping sound

658
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: and then you know the flashing of a light is

659
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: what Margaret is remembering the loud clapping sound.

660
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 3: You know, what are the weird experiences that I had?

661
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 3: Was in the.

662
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: Morgue and there was a victim homicide victim, male victim,

663
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: and I member during manipulation of the body, the victim

664
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 2: head actually hit the floor and there was this loud crack,

665
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: and it turned out that when the victim's head in

666
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: the morgue has had nothing to do with the crime itself,

667
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: but just in the morgu Dude, is you know the

668
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 2: pathologist that I can't remember pathologists pathologist assisted slipping. Victim

669
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: fell onto the floor, head hit this concrete and you

670
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: hear this loud crack.

671
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 3: Well it was the skull. It was a skull fracturing.

672
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: You know.

673
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: So now when you start talking about with John, he

674
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: has what it sounds initially like a cut, which if

675
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: we're dealing with an ax, sounds like there is a

676
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: blow with the sharp side of the axe that maybe

677
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: was not very strong, and you know, insized the scalp.

678
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: But then this crushing injury, which I'm assuming the skull

679
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 2: has a depressed fracture. That may be this clapping sound

680
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: as this goal is fracturing. Maybe Margaret is hearing the

681
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: bones breaking, you know, from this crushing blow of the axe.

682
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: Now the passing light is a mystery. Maybe the offender

683
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 2: had when was this nineteen.

684
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: Hundred nineteen hundred.

685
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so he's probably using you know, maybe a

686
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 2: candle or a match in order to be able to see,

687
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 2: and that's what Margaret is seeing as opposed to you know,

688
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: my initial thought was, oh, it sounds like a gunshot

689
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: and a muzzle flash. Well, maybe it's not a flash flash.

690
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: Maybe it's literally the offender using some sort of lighting

691
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 2: mechanism in order to see where he's going, who the

692
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: victim is, and to be able to escape.

693
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I thought maybe there

694
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: was a light somewhere else, and maybe when she saw

695
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: a flash of light it was maybe the axe kind

696
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: of flipping through the light and causing a little bit

697
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: of a flash there. But we don't know. I just

698
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 1: know she's inches from him when this happens. But let

699
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: me tell you about the graphic injury, because that might,

700
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: I think would be an interesting discussion. So we go

701
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: through this again. Right side of the head, several inches

702
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: above the ear had been deeply cut, severely crushed. Doctor

703
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: Dean thought he had been hit twice, his head first

704
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: struck with the sharp blade and his skull then fractured

705
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: by a blow from a blunt instrument. We're assuming they

706
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 1: flipped the axe around and used the blunt end of it.

707
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: Brain matter had spilled out of the open wounds, making

708
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: the right side of his head appeared to be greatly enlarged.

709
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: His right eye was swollen shut, and the flesh around

710
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: it had a bluish tint. He is not dead yet.

711
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: He is observing all of this while this guy still

712
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 1: has a pulse.

713
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, not surprising. This is, you know, in

714
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 3: terms of the description.

715
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 2: Of brain matter emanating out of this type of depressed

716
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: skull fracture, that is very typical. And you know his

717
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 2: kind of swollen shut right eye.

718
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 3: Well that's do see the all the.

719
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 2: Time with head injuries, whether you're being been shot or bludgeting.

720
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: Where now the bleeding inside the cranium where the brain is,

721
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 2: you know, it presses out into the orbits and so

722
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: typically somebody who's been shot in the head or has received.

723
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: A massive blow to the head.

724
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: Often one or both eyes are extremely swollen. They look

725
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: like the worst black eyes you've ever seen. And it

726
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 2: just has to do with all this blood that is

727
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 2: now pressing out into the orbits and around the eyes.

728
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 1: That's awful. I mean, he would be passed out by

729
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: this point, I'm assuming, right would he be feeling pain

730
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: from what you could tell this has been midnight until

731
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: now about nine am.

732
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: Well, I think if he's conscious, you know, there's nothing

733
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: about this, you know, from my perspective that would mitigate

734
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 2: any of the pain that he would be feeling potentially.

735
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 2: But this is where now you deal with your pathologists,

736
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: your neuroscientists in terms of, Okay, what structures of the

737
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: brain at this point being impacted.

738
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 3: This is on the right side.

739
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: It sounds like potentially the damage to the brain is

740
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 2: restricted to the right side. You know, what structures of

741
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 2: the brain, what anatomy of the brain are damaged. But

742
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 2: I would imagine that none of these structures have anything

743
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: to do with his ability to remain conscious or to

744
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: feel pain. But what's interesting is, you know, there's the

745
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 2: organs inside the body, including the brain, Well, they're not

746
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: necessarily set up to register pain like this. As an example,

747
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 2: stabbing victims, you know, your internal organs, if you're stabbed

748
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,959
Speaker 2: in the torso, your internal organs, their nervous system isn't

749
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 2: set up to register the cutting injuries internally, where you

750
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 2: feel the pain is on the outside with the skin

751
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 2: being cut. The internal organs, like your intestines, are more

752
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 2: set up to detect the discomfort of stretching, you know,

753
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,280
Speaker 2: like if you're in a bloated situation. So stabbing victims

754
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 2: often report I was walking down, you know, an alley,

755
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: and somebody came up and punched me multiple times in

756
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 2: the stomach. Well, they're not able to feel the knife

757
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 2: actually cutting inside. So I imagine that even though he

758
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: has this depressed skull fracture, the brain itself isn't necessarily

759
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: registering pain because it's damaged. But it's going to be

760
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: the other structures, you know, the scalp, possibly the bone,

761
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 2: maybe the maninjas, you know, the these coverings of the

762
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 2: brain that can be very sensitive to you know, when

763
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 2: you have the bleeding and you get the real strong headaches.

764
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: That would be my guess of the type of pain

765
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 2: he would be registering, but he's probably not recognizing that,

766
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you know, half my brain is outside

767
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 2: of my head.

768
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 1: Well, Doctor Dean looks at Margaret and says, this guy

769
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: has no hope. I'm sorry, and he's right because John

770
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: dies at about nine forty five that morning, so almost

771
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: ten hours after this attack happened. And doctor Dean is

772
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: watching Margaret and Margaret is sobbing. She's not turned toward him,

773
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: but she's sobbing and very very upset. And now people

774
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: understand that this was not an accident, this was not

775
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 1: self inflicted. Somebody attacked this well known farmer who had

776
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: a history of domestic violence. And so we have the

777
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: sheriff's deputy and the sheriff come out and they start

778
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: an investigation in earnest and the kids, including the adult kids,

779
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: and the investigators and neighbors start looking for this weapon,

780
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 1: which they're assuming is an axe. There is a man

781
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 1: who is a neighbor named William Haynes. He lives about

782
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 1: a half a mile from the farmhouse. He says to

783
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 1: the kids that he saw a stranger on his porch

784
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: that night. He's very close to the farmhouse. And of

785
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: course the implication is that this could be a suspect.

786
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 1: So now we have a potential stranger close by, and

787
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 1: William Haynes chased him off and could have chased him

788
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: onto John's property. We don't know, but this is a

789
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: possibility that this neighbor has brought up.

790
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 3: Well, sure, so you've got the boogeyman out there.

791
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: We're going to say that that's always a possibility.

792
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 3: It's out there, you know, you have to consider it.

793
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: But now this is this is where assessing you know,

794
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: the victimology and the circumstances of the crime, and if

795
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 2: you have let's say this this stranger. Why is the

796
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 2: stranger going into Margaret and John's house? And right now

797
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 2: you haven't told me anything about is there anything that's

798
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 2: been stolen? Is there any been anything that's been ransacked?

799
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 2: I'm assuming right now that none of that has happened. No,

800
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 2: So a stranger goes into the house and specifically targets

801
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: John and leaves, even though we have an adult female

802
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 2: right next to John that is untouched, and you have

803
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: all the kids in the house untouched, you know, so

804
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: this tells me that John is the target. There's a

805
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 2: focus to the offender. Now, is it somebody from within

806
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 2: the family due to John's abusive nature. Is it somebody

807
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: that's a political rival. Is it somebody that's a religious rival.

808
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: Is it somebody else that John has somehow caused to

809
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: be angry with him for whatever reason. You know, there's

810
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 2: all sorts of different potential motives at this point in time.

811
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 2: But for a stranger just to kind of randomly go

812
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: in and target specifically John, you know, that not eliminating

813
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 2: the possibility, but that seems less likely to me from

814
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: the very beginning. I would be focusing more on who

815
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 2: wants to harm John, who has a reason to harm John,

816
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 2: And then if that doesn't pan out investigatively, then I

817
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 2: of course would have to entertain the possibility the stranger.

818
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: If this department has enough resources, you would be doing

819
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 2: both prongs of the investigation simultaneously. You have somebody assigned. Okay,

820
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 2: try to figure out who the stranger is, you know,

821
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: and see if we can you know, because maybe that

822
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: the neighbor truly did see a stranger who's out there prowling.

823
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 2: But this is what happens in real world. You always

824
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 2: have other things happening at the same time that the

825
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 2: homicide occurs, and they may or may not be related.

826
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: Well, we'll see. The sheriff is not convinced about this

827
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: stranger story at all. And in part two, I'll tell

828
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,919
Speaker 1: you why, and I'll give you a hint. It has

829
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: to do with the family's loyal dog, Shep.

830
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 3: What you have an either braught shep up before? What

831
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 3: is going on with this dog?

832
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: It's called a tease? Paul, good god, Okay, start thinking

833
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: about Shep and I'll talk to you in a week.

834
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 3: All right, sounds good? Kay, Thank you.

835
00:46:53,680 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: Thanks. This has been an exactly right production.

836
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

837
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

838
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

839
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

840
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

841
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

842
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,880
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843
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

844
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

845
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: Ary Bones Pod.

846
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Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

847
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

848
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

849
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,640
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850
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Speaker 1: cold cases is also available now