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Speaker 1: Media, Well, come back to Behind the Bastards. I don't

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Speaker 1: know why I did that, kind of like it was

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Speaker 1: like I was doing a Halloween opening. Didn't work at all,

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Speaker 1: horrible idea. But I'm very happy to announce our guest

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Speaker 1: today back after a long hiatus from this show, but

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Speaker 1: not from our hearts, Iffy and whatdy Wall.

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Speaker 2: How's it going going to be back?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Oh so happy to have you back. If he

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Speaker 1: you are a significant part of the dropout, a wonderful

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Speaker 1: channel on YouTube that is the survivor of college humor,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of like we're ken in the comedy

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Speaker 1: internet comedy world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you guys have been doing some really cool

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Speaker 3: stuff lately, like some of the funnest, like most interesting

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Speaker 3: like quasi game show comedy bits like I've watched hours

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Speaker 3: of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I was, you know, I was talking to

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Speaker 2: Sam and Dave's the kind of like higher ups there,

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Speaker 2: which is, you know, which is a testament to how

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Speaker 2: cool the company is, because no, I haven't spoke to

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Speaker 2: the higher ups at ICC or any of the other companies,

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Speaker 2: but I was like, oh yeah, this is like where

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Speaker 2: like Panel Comedy lives and now after Midnight's back. But

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Speaker 2: I feel like Americans run away from panel comedy shows

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Speaker 2: and I like an excuse to riff and goof with friends.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think, and I think that YouTube and the

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Speaker 1: kind of what people get out of a lot of

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Speaker 1: like streaming stuff too, like not like streaming TV, but like,

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Speaker 1: you know, streamers is that goofing with friends thing. Like

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Speaker 1: I watch red letter media stuff for a lot of

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Speaker 1: the same reason, and I feel like there's a way

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Speaker 1: to save that stuff. It's just not putting it on

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Speaker 1: television at eleven thirty at night necessarily.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, people should be a little more lucid

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Speaker 2: when they're taking in that kind of media. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: where else are you gonna watch? You know, a block

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Speaker 2: trying to think of the name of the show it was.

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Speaker 2: It was the one with the guy he has the

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Speaker 2: it's not a top hat, it's like a fedora almost,

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Speaker 2: and he's a detective and all dads love it.

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Speaker 1: Bosh Yes, oh god, I don't even use the tools

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Speaker 1: that Bosh makes. They love Bosh the Bosh heads. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would laugh. But I just got into Reacher, which

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Speaker 1: is like it's, you know, it's the stupidest thing on TV,

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Speaker 1: but I love it. It's like, it's like I used

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Speaker 1: to watch a lot of Walker Texas Rangers again the

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Speaker 1: inheritor of that, but not racist or as racist, I

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Speaker 1: guess exactly say not at all.

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Speaker 2: Look, that's why I'm not even going to judge, because

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Speaker 2: I remember one time, me and em we were up

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Speaker 2: in the cabin in right Wood and we needed to

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Speaker 2: kill Tom and we were like, let's watch this nine

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Speaker 2: to one one show whatever, just see and we were

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Speaker 2: like seven episodes in locked. You're like, hold on, this

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Speaker 2: is this? This kind of goes Angela Bassid know what

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Speaker 2: she's doing.

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Speaker 1: Mm hm oh yeah, no, she's she's a pro. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't get work like that or work

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Speaker 1: like you and your colleagues do at the dropout without

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Speaker 1: human beings actually doing things. Which is why today we're

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Speaker 1: here to talk about AI, and particularly we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about how a lot of the conversation and a

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Speaker 1: lot of the fandom around AI has turned into more

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Speaker 1: or less occult. So that's that's that's the premise of

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Speaker 1: this episode. Iffie, I want to start by going back

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Speaker 1: to a place I was about a week ago as

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Speaker 1: we record this, the Consumer Electronics Show. Every year they've

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Speaker 1: been holding it for a long time now, and it's

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Speaker 1: kind of how the tech industry talks about itself and

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Speaker 1: what it has planned for the future. A lot of

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Speaker 1: it's hype, you know, they're kind of talking up what's

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Speaker 1: coming out that they're hoping we'll get buzzed, we'll make money,

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Speaker 1: but you also get an idea of like what do

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Speaker 1: you think we want and what are you trying to

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Speaker 1: get us excited about? And I think the most revealing

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Speaker 1: product that I saw this year was the Rabbit R

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Speaker 1: one and it's it's a little square shaped gadgets a screen,

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Speaker 1: it's got a little camera that can swivel, and it's

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Speaker 1: an AI that basically you talk to it like you

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Speaker 1: would an Alexa, but it can use your apps and

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Speaker 1: it's supposed to reduce friction in your life by basically

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Speaker 1: routing every move you make online through this machine intelligence.

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Speaker 1: So you tell it what you want to do and

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Speaker 1: it does it instead of like you using like physically

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Speaker 1: using your smartphone as much. You still have to click

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Speaker 1: it sometimes. And I want to play you a clip

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Speaker 1: of this where this is the CEO Jesse Lu's keynote speech.

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Speaker 4: Our smartphones has become the best device to kill time.

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Speaker 4: Instead of saving them. It's just harder for them to

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Speaker 4: do things. Many people before us have tried to build

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Speaker 4: a simpler and more intuitive computers with AI. A decade ago,

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Speaker 4: companies like Apple, Microsoft, and Amazon made Siri, Contana and Alixa.

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Speaker 4: With these smart speakers, often they either don't know what

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Speaker 4: you're talking about or failed to accomplish the past. We

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Speaker 4: ask for recent achievements in large language models, however, or LMS,

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Speaker 4: a type of AI technology, have made it much easier

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Speaker 4: for machines to understand you. The popularity of LM chatbots

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Speaker 4: over the past years has shown that the natural language

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Speaker 4: based experience is the pass forward.

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Speaker 1: Now. I don't know that I entirely agree with that,

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Speaker 1: because I think the biggest influence that these chatbots have

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Speaker 1: had on me is that whenever I try to deal

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Speaker 1: with like an airline or something, I get stuck on

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Speaker 1: chat GPT and it's a pain in the as to

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Speaker 1: do anything.

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Speaker 2: What's so funny about the rise in AI right now

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Speaker 2: is like, if we really think about it, and god

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Speaker 2: damn it, Robert, you threaded the needle right there. When

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Speaker 2: you really think about it, all AI is is just

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Speaker 2: the evolution of the shittiest part of calling. Yes, yes, all,

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Speaker 2: the one thing that we do as soon as we

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Speaker 2: call is like zero zero zero, let me get straight

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Speaker 2: to a human.

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Speaker 1: Let me talk to a human.

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Speaker 2: And the and these these like eggheads were like, what

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Speaker 2: if we did more of that? What if we remove

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Speaker 2: your solace from this sad eyes of your life?

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Speaker 1: And it's it's the kind of thing he seems so

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Speaker 1: off from my experience where he's like the problem with

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Speaker 1: phones is that it's too hard to do things. No,

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Speaker 1: it's too easy for me to order a bunch of

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Speaker 1: junk food and have a stranger deliver it. That's been

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Speaker 1: a problem for me, right, Oh yeah, it's too easy

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Speaker 1: for me to waste six hours on Twitter, Like that's

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Speaker 1: what the issue is.

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Speaker 2: Do you know how much the easiness of everything has

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Speaker 2: made me wake up the next morning with cold food

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Speaker 2: on my porch that I never touched.

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Speaker 1: Yes, because it's too easy, It was too easy.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes we need those those those like bumps in the

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Speaker 2: road to keep drunk stone diffy from ordering a like

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Speaker 2: triple double burger that I'm hoping gets to me and

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Speaker 2: before I fall asleep, it never does.

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Speaker 1: I've had so many problems as with my phone, but

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Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever had the problem of like

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Speaker 1: this thing's just too hard to use. Yeah, that's just

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Speaker 1: not a problem I know that anyone has. But but

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Speaker 1: Jesse complains that, you know, there's too much friction with

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Speaker 1: smartphones and his device. That rabbit is going to let you,

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Speaker 1: Like you can just tell it book me a flight

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Speaker 1: or a hotel on Expedia and you don't even have

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Speaker 1: to know, like it'll just pick a hotel for you

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Speaker 1: a lot of the time, or like what flight you

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Speaker 1: know it thinks is the most efficient. Jesse's goal is

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Speaker 1: to basically create AI agents for customers, which like live

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Speaker 1: in this little device you wear and act as you

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Speaker 1: online to handle tasks you normally use your phone to do. So,

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Speaker 1: you can tell your rabbit to book you an uber,

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Speaker 1: you can have a book you a flight, or you

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Speaker 1: can have it plan your trip to a foreign country.

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Speaker 1: Nobody sounds really bad. It sounds so fucking bad.

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Speaker 5: Rabbit's like, hey, how would you like a middle speech

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Speaker 5: seed on.

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Speaker 1: Sufficient as hell? Yeah, spirits so cheap. Now you can

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Speaker 1: you can direct it more. But then that just seems like, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what I'm already doing on my computer. Why is

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Speaker 1: it easiest just to like work through a vocal chatbot

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Speaker 1: that might not understand me, or at least will be

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Speaker 1: as much friction as like, Yeah, when I touch my

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Speaker 1: phone and it hits the wrong thing, right, I just

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Speaker 1: don't see that I'm saving much here. No one also

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Speaker 1: seems to know how Rabbit's going to integrate with all

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Speaker 1: these apps, because that means their device has to have

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Speaker 1: access to them for you, and that's kind of a

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Speaker 1: big ask for all of these different companies. That said,

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Speaker 1: and no one knows, by the way, how secure it's

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Speaker 1: going to be. But no one at CES was listening either,

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Speaker 1: because the first ten thousand pre order models that opened

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Speaker 1: at CES sold out instantly. How does it mean? That

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean a lot of normal people are going to

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Speaker 1: buy it? It means a lot of tech freaks wanted

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Speaker 1: this thing. Yeah, that is the thing.

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Speaker 2: Too, is like, yeah, if you're at c you're already

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Speaker 2: you're already drinking the kool aid. Yes, I you know,

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Speaker 2: And I'm very much It's so funny because I'm very

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Speaker 2: much that guy, or I was very much that guy

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Speaker 2: who wanted to be on that cusp of technology. And

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Speaker 2: I feel like, you know, in my early twenties, it

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Speaker 2: seems so cool because you're like, yeah, I want to

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Speaker 2: be iron man, I want to just have full control.

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Speaker 2: And then you kind of get to the point where

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Speaker 2: you start if you have enough self reflection, you notice

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Speaker 2: that you're just kind of you're using technology to do

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Speaker 2: things that you could just do for much simpler and cheaper, Like,

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Speaker 2: for example, like when you get these apps and then

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Speaker 2: I'm like sitting in a photo editor for like fifty

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Speaker 2: minutes just to make it look like it was shot

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Speaker 2: on film, And I was like, I can buy a

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Speaker 2: disposable camera like that exists. And what's great is when

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Speaker 2: you now when you develop them, they put it, they

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Speaker 2: email it to you so it can go on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: It's going to take longer, but arguably you might get

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Speaker 2: some post flip clarity that pick that didn't look good

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Speaker 2: isn't now on the internet, or you know, you can

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Speaker 2: like spread it out. But yeah, I am getting.

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Speaker 1: Very you are, like, you are so much more thoughtful

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Speaker 1: in that than like anybody involved in this product has

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Speaker 1: been over the course of their entire life. Now, a

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Speaker 1: couple of skeptics who have given reviews have already noted problems.

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Speaker 1: Richard Lawler of the verbs was like, this thing is

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Speaker 1: not built for left handed people to use, Like they

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Speaker 1: forgotten that left handed people existed, and so they designed

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Speaker 1: it in a way that's specifically a pain in the ass. Which, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's also they brag they have this camera that can

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Speaker 1: like move on its own, so we can cover stuff

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Speaker 1: in front of it or behind it, And a commenter

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Speaker 1: on Lawler's article was like, it's a pretty fundamental design

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Speaker 1: principle that you don't add moving parts if you don't

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Speaker 1: need them. And there's plenty of space in this for

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Speaker 1: a camera in the front and the back, which is

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Speaker 1: one less point of failure, one less thing for shit

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Speaker 1: to get gunked up in. This is actually bad design.

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Speaker 1: They're bragging about this, but it's a bad idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a couple of other issues in there. You know,

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Speaker 1: we'll see it looks like it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: lot thicker than a smartphone. I just don't know the

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Speaker 1: degree to which a regular it's the same Google glass issue, Right,

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Speaker 1: do you want a second thing that you have to

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Speaker 1: keep on you like alongside your you know.

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Speaker 2: Just going to be my question. So I'm glad, So

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Speaker 2: is this a something that should be replacing your phone

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Speaker 2: or is this another thing that you are supposed to

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Speaker 2: be holding on to.

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Speaker 1: I think the goal is for it to eventually replace it,

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Speaker 1: but at this point you will still need to have both,

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Speaker 1: so like carry another thing, you know.

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Speaker 2: You know, walking around like a drug dealer. You have

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Speaker 2: two different It's kind of bit.

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Speaker 1: It's a big device and it's it's not tiny and

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Speaker 1: it has a big screen. So it's just like, well,

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Speaker 1: you just made a different kind of smartphone. Again, what

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Speaker 1: am I gaining? Yeah? What he's holding in this video? Correct? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, well and what ye what more

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Speaker 2: is like that? On top of tech person, it's definitely

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Speaker 2: the person who carries a power bank with them. So

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Speaker 2: that is a thirst and that's me. So that's three

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Speaker 2: things you're rocking with. I know I have so many

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Speaker 2: power banks and have and ADHD has blocked every single

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Speaker 2: one of them from being useful because you do, I

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Speaker 2: forget to charge them or I forget to bring them.

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Speaker 1: It also just doesn't look comfortable. It's bigger than his hand.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, he's not a teenage We'll get a better

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Speaker 1: look at in a second, because I want to show

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Speaker 1: you when he's talking he's trying to make the case

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Speaker 1: for this and one of like, he spends a significant

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Speaker 1: portion of his not very long keynote on him Rick

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Speaker 1: rolling himself in the most iffy You've gotta fucking watch this.

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Speaker 1: It is so painful.

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Speaker 4: R One has an eye, an onboard camera designed for

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Speaker 4: advanced computer vision. It can analyze surroundings and take actions

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Speaker 4: in real time. To activate the eye, just double tap

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Speaker 4: the button. Oh funny seeing you here, Rick.

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Speaker 1: It's a picture of Rick Astley that he points it at.

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Speaker 6: Let me take a look. I'm never gonna get you off.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy what am I getting? Rip roll in my own keynotes?

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Speaker 2: The next one okay tech keynotes spe to take impromt.

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Speaker 1: Class one like and I don't recommend that to normal people.

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Speaker 2: Because like you're you're like, no, selling your own joke,

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Speaker 2: just like what you're not even laughing at it? Why

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Speaker 2: am I gonna laugh?

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Speaker 1: I will say this that was scripted almost exactly the

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Speaker 1: way Tim Robinson would have written it. Oh man, But

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Speaker 1: I bet Sam Richardson could have delivered that bit better.

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Speaker 1: So that is very funny. But I find this next

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Speaker 1: clip more disturbing because it shows this kind of desire

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Speaker 1: that the people that are the early adopters here have

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Speaker 1: not just for more convenience, but to hand over like

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Speaker 1: the power to choose to a robot that's basically just

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Speaker 1: pulling the first advertised result from Google Like it's kind

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Speaker 1: of messed up.

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Speaker 4: Ooh, I can also use our one to order foot

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Speaker 4: get me a twelve inch pizza from Pizza Huts. Denvers

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Speaker 4: will hear the most ordered option on the app.

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Speaker 6: Is fine ordering a twelve inch pizza from Pizza Hut.

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Speaker 6: Since you mentioned that the most ordered option is fine,

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Speaker 6: I will select that for you. I just created an

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Speaker 6: order for a twelve inch pizza. It's going to be

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Speaker 6: hand tossed with a classic marinara sauce and topped with

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Speaker 6: regular cheese. Please confirm your order.

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Speaker 4: That sounds really good. I just come from an order.

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Speaker 1: He has to click it again, just like on a smartphone.

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Speaker 1: He guess, like, look at the device and click it.

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Speaker 2: Here's a freebie for any of even Richard Lawlor, who

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Speaker 2: has been in the game for a long time, but

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Speaker 2: like any of you tech bloggers, I just do a

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Speaker 2: side by side with this video and physically do everything

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Speaker 2: he's doing and the real time, because a pizza would

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Speaker 2: have been ordered way faster if you would have just

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Speaker 2: pulled out your phone.

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Speaker 1: Well and you could get the pizza you want. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like the twelve.

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Speaker 5: Inch Classic marinera most ordered pizza.

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Speaker 2: I want this shit. I actually like that's so weird.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Also, who orders a twelve inch pizza from

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Speaker 1: Pizza Hut?

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Speaker 2: Nobody? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Then no way? Is that the most ordered product from

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Speaker 1: Pizza Hut. I don't believe it.

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Speaker 2: It was definitely paid nonsense.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it's just like yeah, and they're the next clip.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we'll actually play it, but like it is,

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Speaker 1: it's him saying, hey, plan out like a three day

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Speaker 1: vacation in London for me, And as far as I

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Speaker 1: can tell, the AI goes for like the first top

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Speaker 1: ten list of things to do in London that it finds,

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Speaker 1: which was probably written by an AI, and then makes

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Speaker 1: an itinerary based on those and it's like, first off,

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Speaker 1: are you that basic? Second, planning a vacation is fun?

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Speaker 1: Is that not a thing that you want to do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You're so right? Why would you? Because I look,

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Speaker 2: the reason you would go to like a travel agent

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Speaker 2: is because they are experts at it. They're gonna find

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Speaker 2: the most fun thing for you outside of that, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I want to plan the cool stuff I'm gonna do,

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Speaker 2: you know, And and yeah, what about people with fears,

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Speaker 2: you know? Or people without skills, which is definitely going

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Speaker 2: to be a large margin of people who do this.

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Speaker 2: So you you're in London, now you're you're, you're, you're,

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Speaker 2: And then it takes you on a trip to Malta

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Speaker 2: to go scuba diving. You don't even know how to swim,

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Speaker 2: and now you sit in therey like you already paid

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Speaker 2: for bro, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You let your fuck for you. It's on you. It's silly, right,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to be I'm gonna say this

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Speaker 1: is not the most direct parallel to cult shit will have,

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Speaker 1: But watching this, I couldn't help but think about a

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Speaker 1: cult that was like the subject of our second episode

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Speaker 1: for this year, The Finders, And it was one of

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Speaker 1: those things. The guy Marion Petty who ran it was

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Speaker 1: like running games is the way he framed it. And

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Speaker 1: people would join the cult and give up their agency,

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Speaker 1: and he'd tell them go take a job in this city,

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Speaker 1: or like go follow this guy and take notes on

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Speaker 1: him for a year, or like have a kid and

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Speaker 1: raise it. This way, and this is stuff like this

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Speaker 1: is really common within cults. One of the appeals of

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Speaker 1: a cult to a lot of people is that you

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Speaker 1: both get a sense of purpose by following the cult

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Speaker 1: and whatever things that says it going to do, and

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Speaker 1: you give up the burden of having to choose a

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Speaker 1: life for yourself. And this is such a common thing

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Speaker 1: in cult dynamics that psychologist Robert Lifton, who's kind of

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Speaker 1: one of the foundational minds and studying cults, described it

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Speaker 1: as voluntary self surrender, and it's a major characteristic of

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Speaker 1: a cult. Many of the finders, we're not you know,

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Speaker 1: these are not dumb people. These are not like rubes.

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Speaker 1: These are not hillbillies as they're often portrayed in our

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Speaker 1: popular media. A lot of the finders had Ivy League degrees.

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Speaker 1: One of them owned an oil company, and these guys

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Speaker 1: still handed their lives over to a cult leader. Haruki Murakami,

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Speaker 1: writing about ohm Shinriko, which is the cult that set

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Speaker 1: off a bunch of poison gas in the Tokyo subway,

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Speaker 1: noted that many of its members were doctors or engineers

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Speaker 1: who quote actively sought to be controlled. I found a

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Speaker 1: lot of this really information on the fundamental characteristics of

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Speaker 1: what makes something a cult In an article by Zoe

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Speaker 1: Heller published for The New Yorker back in twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: At the time, she was kind of looking at QAnon

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Speaker 1: and trying to decide, there's not like a clear guy

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Speaker 1: and that's the cult leader, and there's not like a

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Speaker 1: geographic center to this, and usually there is with cults

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Speaker 1: in history. Does this still qualify? And I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people would agree that, like Yad does. I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of experts tend to agree that Yead does.

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Speaker 1: And when she was looking at the QAnon movement as

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Speaker 1: a cult, Heller noted this. Robert Lifton suggests that people

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Speaker 1: with certain kinds of personal history are more likely to

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Speaker 1: experience such a longing, those with quote an early sense

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Speaker 1: of confusion or dislocation, or at the opposite extreme, an

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Speaker 1: early experience of unusually intense family milieu control. But he

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Speaker 1: stresses that the capacity for totalist submission lurks in all

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Speaker 1: of us and is probably rooted in childhood, the prolonged

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Speaker 1: period of dependence during which we have no choice but

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Speaker 1: to attribute to our parents and exaggerated omnipotence. And I

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Speaker 1: found particularly the bit where he's talking about like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you an early sense of confusion or dislocation makes

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Speaker 1: people crave this kind of to give up this kind

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Speaker 1: of control and responsibility. The people running these AI companies

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Speaker 1: and maybe not necessarily the very top, because I think

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Speaker 1: those tend to be pretty cynical, realistic human beings. But

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the people who are in them,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the people who are latching onto

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Speaker 1: AI as a fandom online are people whose childhoods and adolescences,

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Speaker 1: like all of ours, were shaped by nine to eleven,

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Speaker 1: the dislocation and change that that caused, and their young adulthoods.

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Speaker 1: A lot of these people, like us, will have come

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Speaker 1: of age around the time of the two thousand and

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Speaker 1: eight crash. Many of the people who are younger in

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Speaker 1: the AI fan base are you know, maybe zoomers and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and you know, a lot of them are people who

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Speaker 1: have really ugly ideas about like artists shouldn't charge for

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Speaker 1: shit or whatever. Yes, but also these are people who

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Speaker 1: a lot of them came into their careers went into

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Speaker 1: stem fields because they were told coming up the tech

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Speaker 1: industry is the safest place to make, you know, a

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Speaker 1: good living for yourself and that all fell apart a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago, right, it started to at least

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Speaker 1: tech laughs began so again dislocation, chaos, the sense that

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Speaker 1: like what else am I going to entrust my life to?

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Speaker 1: I thought I had a plan and it fell apart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I this is this is where if

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00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 2: he's going to get real, it's philosophical and big brereer.

404
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Speaker 2: But I just finished All about Love by Bell Hooks,

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Speaker 2: and you know she often talks about like the wandering

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Speaker 2: life with lovelessness and that, and that's searching for it

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Speaker 2: and not having having it. And I feel like that

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Speaker 2: goes hand in hand with what you're saying right where

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Speaker 2: it's like I want a sense of belonging and I

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Speaker 2: want to feel like I'm a part of people, and

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Speaker 2: whether that is running into target trampling people for Stanley cups,

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Speaker 2: or it's being a part of like what you perceive

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Speaker 2: to be the next big thing. Like I think that

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Speaker 2: is the biggest kind of selling point for a lot

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Speaker 2: of these AI people who's like this is the future,

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Speaker 2: Like that is almost every person who starts a fifty

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Speaker 2: tweet thread with shitty examples of why AI rocks starts

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Speaker 2: itting with this is the future and you just got

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Speaker 2: to get over it. And there's so many people who

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Speaker 2: just want to be on the ground floor of that.

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Speaker 2: They want to be the people who were on it.

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Speaker 2: Because how many times even I, you know, when you

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Speaker 2: have that like time machine question, you're like, oh, Stock

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Speaker 2: and Starbucks, ooh uh an Apple. You just want to

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Speaker 2: be there before it gets big. So when it really

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it all comes down

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Speaker 2: to commerce, you want to be at the top when

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Speaker 2: it all shifts. And that is actually the danger in

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Speaker 2: this for me is the commerce. I think about it

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Speaker 2: often because you know, like you're saying it, like orders

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Speaker 2: the top Google search. Google is kindrently in courts right

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Speaker 2: now fighting against you know, basically shaking down companies to

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Speaker 2: see who would be the top one. So like the

434
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 2: future of this being actually you know, a useful app

435
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: kind of lives now in that case because if Google

436
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 2: wins and they can put whoever's on top, that's only

437
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: going to make it more valuable where they place who's

438
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 2: on top. Because people are using these weird rabbits, you know, yeah, exactly,

439
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 2: it's yeah, it is to them. They see the beginning

440
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 2: of the futures, and I feel like, to me, I'm

441
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 2: just looking at all the ways it can be abused,

442
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: because if we just look at everything that has come

443
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 2: before us, we have to think of the ways that

444
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 2: it has been abused.

445
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: And all the ways it'll be a worse future, you know.

446
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: And I think I really liked that you brought up

447
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: the panic they try to inciteen the rest of us,

448
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: the like the fomo where it's like this is the future,

449
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 1: get on board or you're gonna get left behind, y right?

450
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: That is that is the cult recruitment tactic, right, And

451
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: what they're trying to do. I just brought up that

452
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: a lot of the people who are most vulnerable to

453
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 1: this are the folks who like, yeah, they have this

454
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 1: sense of like insecurity, dislocation, and they see getting on

455
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 1: board with this early they feel like a sense of

456
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 1: security there. And by saying you're going to get left behind,

457
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: this is the only way forward, you won't be competitive

458
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: if you don't embrace this stuff that they're trying to

459
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: induce that sense of fear and dislocation to make people vulnerable.

460
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: And I want to read another quote from that art

461
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: from that New Yorker article, The Less control we feel

462
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: we have over our circumstances, the more likely we are

463
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: to entrust our fates to a higher power. A classic

464
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 1: example of this relationship was provided by the anthropologist Bronislam

465
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: Molina Whisky, who found that fishermen in the Trobyan Islands

466
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 1: off the coast of New Guinea engaged in more magic

467
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: rituals the further out to see they went. And I

468
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 1: think we all feel like we're getting further out to

469
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: see these days, right, Like, it's not hard to see why.

470
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: I like, yeah, I'm near the shore or what. I

471
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 1: don't believe in anything but what's right in front of me.

472
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: And then like you can't say anything but water, and

473
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: you're like, no, there's a god and I can keep

474
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: them happy.

475
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, indeed, it's it's tough. Yeah, everyone's just kind

476
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 2: of grasping at what they can to just bolster themselves.

477
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 2: And sometimes yeah, you're grasping at some weird stuff.

478
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, And it's you know, it's noted often

479
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: by I think a lot of particularly atheists on the Internet,

480
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: that like church attendance is down people who identify as

481
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: part of an organized religion like that that is at

482
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: its lowest level basically. Ever, and this is true. These

483
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: are real trends and they have real effects. But I

484
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: don't think the fact that less people are religious in

485
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: the traditional sense means they're less superstitious or spiritual than

486
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: they ever. It's just that what they invest with that

487
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: belief has changed, in part because they've seen the world

488
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: dislocate so far out of what most priests and another

489
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: sort of like religious heads are capable of sort of

490
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: explaining or comforting them over right, It's like, oh, religion

491
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: is less comforting in a world as advanced as ours

492
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: for most people. Now, this may seem like a reach

493
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: still to kind of call what's going on around AI

494
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: a cult, and I get that. I ask you to

495
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 1: bear with me here, and I do want to note

496
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with the inherent technology that we often

497
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 1: call AI, or at least not with all of it.

498
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: That's A because it's used as such a wide banner

499
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: term for stuff is very just like a text recognition

500
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: program that can listen to human voice and create an

501
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: on the fly transcription. That's an AI. That's an example

502
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: of that kind of technology, right like it gets folded

503
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: in there. That's one of the things in AI has

504
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: to do recognizing language in like facial recognition too, recognizing faces.

505
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: If you're ever going to have an actual artificial intelligence,

506
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 1: those are two of the baseline capabilities that it needs.

507
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 1: Chatbots obviously are a big part of this, along with

508
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: like the Sundry tools that are being used now to

509
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 1: clone voices, to generate deep fakes and fuel our now

510
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: constant trip into the Uncanny Valley. Cees featured some real

511
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: products that actually did harness the promise of machine learning

512
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: in ways that I thought, we're cool as I noted

513
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: it could happen here. There's like this telescope. It uses

514
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: machine learning to like basically clean up images that you

515
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: take with it at night when there's like a lot

516
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: of light pollutions so you can see more clearly. And

517
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, that's dope. That's great, But that lived

518
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 1: alongside a lot of nonsense, you know. Chat GPT for

519
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: dogs was a real sin I saw, and like, there

520
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: was an AI assisted fleshlight to help you not be

521
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: a premature.

522
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: Because of course that's the one that popped on my tongueline.

523
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 2: It's like and it was like and then they gamified

524
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: it where you go to different planets, you defeat the planet.

525
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 2: So I'm like, what you You keep talking about beating

526
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: the planets? So how do I lose? Is it when

527
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: I bust about bussing loss? Because you're now introducing shame

528
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 2: to sex again and I thought we finally got out

529
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: moving best that. Yeah, I can't beat.

530
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 1: Level those kind of bad ideas. That's all par for

531
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: the course for CEES. But what I saw this year,

532
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: in last year, not just at CEES, just over the

533
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,719
Speaker 1: year in the tech industry from futurist fanboys and titans

534
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: of industry like Mark Andersson, is a kind of unhinged

535
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: messianic fervor that compares better that to scientology than it

536
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: does to the iPhone. And I mean that literally. Mark

537
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: Andreesen is the co founder of Netscape and the capital

538
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: firm Andresen Horowitz. He is one of the most influential

539
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: investors in tech history, and he's put more money into

540
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 1: AI's startups than almost anyone else. Last year, he published

541
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: something called the Techno Optimist Manifesto on the Andresen Horowitz website.

542
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: On the surface, it's a pean to the promise of

543
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: AI and an exhortation to embrace the promise of technology

544
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: and disregard pessimism. Plenty of people called the Peace Out

545
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: for its logical fallacies. For example, it ignores that a

546
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: lot of tech pessimism is due to real harm caused

547
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: by some of the companies Andresen invested in, like Facebook.

548
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: What's attracted less attention is the messianic overtones of everything.

549
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: Andresen believes quote, we believe artificial intelligence can save lives

550
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: if we let it. Medicine, along Manye with many other fields,

551
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: is in the Stone age compared to what we can

552
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 1: achieve with joined human and machine intelligence working on new cures.

553
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: There are scores of common causes of death that can

554
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: be fixed with AI, from plane crashes to pandemics to

555
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: wartime friendly fire. Now he's right that there's some medical

556
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: uses for AI. It's being used right now to help

557
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: improve the ability to recognize certain kinds of cancer, and

558
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: there's the potential for stuff like in home devices that

559
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: let you scan your skin to see if you're developing

560
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: a melanoma. And there's debate still over how useful it's

561
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: going to be in medical research. I've talked to recently

562
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: some experts and I've read some stuff that like there

563
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: are some reasons for caution too, for some of the

564
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: same reasons we should have caution with this everywhere. There's

565
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: also disinformation that spread medically with AI, even to doctors,

566
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: and some of the patterns that using this stuff gets

567
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: medical professionals into can make them discount certain diagnoses as well.

568
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,479
Speaker 1: So I don't say that to like say, there's not

569
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: going to be some significant uses for some of the

570
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: way this technology works medically. Some aspects of AI will

571
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: save lives. It's just the evidence right now doesn't see

572
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: just it's going to completely revolutionize medical science. It's another

573
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: advancement that will be good in some ways, and there

574
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: will be some negative aspects of it too.

575
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 2: Right.

576
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: It's also very much not fair to say that, like

577
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: we're going to reduce deaths for human beings as a

578
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: result of AI, because right now the nation of Israel

579
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: is using an AI program called the Gospel to assist

580
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: it in aiming its air strikes, which have been widely

581
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: condemned for their out exceptional outstanding, in many cases genocidal

582
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: level of civilian casualties. Yes, it's just outrageous.

583
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, one hundred percent, And you know, you know

584
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 2: that's exactly what's going on as a genocide, and you

585
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: know the language and a lot of these speeches says

586
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: that say as much fair, yeah, even more so. Yeah,

587
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: like like you're saying another thing I want to point out,

588
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: which you might have been about to say, and I'm

589
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: already jumping ahead. Is how I think it was chet

590
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: GPT that has quietly switched their terms of service to

591
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: say that it wouldn't be used for like weapons and.

592
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, to hurt people, and that's for sure.

593
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now now it has it has been quietly

594
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: scrubbed from those terms of service, and we do we

595
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: need to talk about that, Yeah, because there's just so

596
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: many things that we have grown accustomed to with tech

597
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: that I think is dangerous as we get into things

598
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: that have more room for error. Because we're used to

599
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: updated terms of services on our iPhone, right every time

600
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: we grab an eye an update, it's like, here's a

601
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: new terms of service and you just kind of scroll

602
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: through it and you go yeah, because you're like, yeah,

603
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: you know, this is just a phone. It's not gonna,

604
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: you know, be used for anything weird. Yet uh so

605
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: you're you're comfortable. But like when you're doing the same

606
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: thing with these chat GPT machine learning situations where you're

607
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: you're agreeing, and you're agreeing, Okay, I will help this

608
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 2: thing learn, and now you are just actively helping it

609
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 2: learn how to be an assassin. Like what happens there?

610
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's again it's this back and forth where

611
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: on one hand, there is some technology like AI enabled

612
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: robots that can go run onto a battlefield and pick

613
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: up an injured soldier. I have no desire to see

614
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: some random private bleed to death in a foreign country,

615
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: fine with that. Or anti missile missiles right, using AI

616
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: to intercept and stop a missile from blowing up in

617
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: a civilian area sounds fine, Like I don't. I don't

618
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: want random people to die from missiles, But it's also

619
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: going to be used to target those missiles. And to say, like,

620
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: based on some shit we analyzed on Twitter or whatever,

621
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: we think wiping out this grid square of apartment buildings

622
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: will really get a lot of the bad guys, and based.

623
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 2: On we should blow them up exactly. It's crazy.

624
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: It's just it's there's certainly it's certainly not fair to

625
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: say there won't be benefits, but it's absolutely unclear in

626
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: every field of endeavor whether or not they will outweigh

627
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: the harms, right, And even if they do, to what extent,

628
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: you know, because a lot of what I'm saying suggests

629
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: that even if the benefits outweigh the harms in a

630
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: lot of fields, it's still I'm not going because of

631
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: the extent of the harms. In part, it's still not

632
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: going to be a massive sea change.

633
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: Right.

634
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: There are a lot of reasons for caution, but Mark

635
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: has no time for doubters. In fact, to him, doubting

636
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: the benefits of AGI artificial general intelligence is the only

637
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: true sin of his religion. Quote. We believe any deceleration

638
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: of AI will cost lives deaths that were preventable by

639
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: the AI that was prevented from existing. Is a form

640
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: of murder. And that's fucked up. That's really dangerous to

641
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: start talking like that. Oh yeah, and this is the

642
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: more direct cult comment here. I want you to compare

643
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: the claim Mark made above that slowing down AI is

644
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: identical to murder. I want you to compare that to

645
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: the claims the Church of Scientologies makes. Because the Church

646
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: of Scientology, they have this list of practices and the

647
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: beliefs that they call tech, right, and they believe that

648
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: by taking on tech, by engaging with it, people can

649
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: become clear of all of their flaws, and and by

650
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: doing that you can help you can fix all of

651
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: the problems in the world. Right, the Church of Scientology

652
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: on his websites claims that its followers will quote rid

653
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: the planet of insanity, war and crime, and in its

654
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: place create a civilization in which sanity and piece exist.

655
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: How is that in any way different from Mark Andresen

656
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: saying all of the shit that he's saying, right, that

657
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: it's going to like create this this We're going to

658
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: revolutionize medicine, We're going to like d friendly fire, We're

659
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: going to cure pandemics, we're going to stop car crash.

660
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: Asks what is the difference? Right and Scientology uses that

661
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: claim that scientology tech is so necessary it's going to

662
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: fix all these problems. So anyone who gets in the

663
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: way of the Church of Scientology and the deployment of

664
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: this tech for mankind's benefit is subject to what they

665
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: call fair game. A person declared fair game quote may

666
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: be deprived of property or injured by any means by

667
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: any Scientologist. And again, Mark Andersson has not said that

668
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: in his Techno Optimist manifesto. In fact, he makes some

669
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: claims about like none of no people are our enemies.

670
00:33:59,360 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: Right.

671
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: If you're saying you're a murderer for slowing this down,

672
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: it's not her to see how some people might adopt

673
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: a practice like fair game eventually, right, that's how where

674
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: else does this go?

675
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: Is my way? What do we do with murderers? What

676
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: does I feel like the general rule across all creeds? Yeah,

677
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 2: across all beliefs is typically murderers are bad and should die.

678
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: That is at least to be punished. Right, there's a

679
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: punishment for murders. Most people agree. Yeah, speaking of murder,

680
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: you know who has never committed a murder?

681
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 2: You cannot say that, like Blake. Okay, all of our ads.

682
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: You know who, I can't prove we're involved in any murders,

683
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: just like I have no evidence that Jamie Loftis had

684
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: any role with Okay, Okay.

685
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 5: What I'm saying one one, my girl is innocent, and

686
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 5: two you can't say that about ours about this, Okay, Well,

687
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 5: we don't pick them.

688
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: If he By the way, we're spreading a rumor online

689
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: that Jamie Loftis was possibly involved in a series of

690
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 1: murders in Grand Rapids, Michigan. It's a bit, it's it's

691
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 1: it's a good bits.

692
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 5: So you know who knows innocent?

693
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 2: Uh huh.

694
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: Anyway, here's here's some ads. Oh We're back. So the

695
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: more you dig into Anderson's theology, the more it starts

696
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: to seem like a form of techno capitalist Christianity. AI

697
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 1: is the savior in the cases of devices like the Rabbit,

698
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: it might literally become our own personal Jesus. And who

699
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: you might ask, is God. Quote. We believe the market

700
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: economy is a discovery machine, a form of intelligence, an exploratory,

701
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: evolutionary adaptive system. Now God, through this concept of reality

702
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: capitalism itself and capitalize the sea there because it's a deity.

703
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: Hassen to bring artificial general intelligence into being. All the

704
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: jobs lost, all the incoherent flats and choking our Internet,

705
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: all the Amazon drop shippers using chat GPT to write

706
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: product descriptions, these are but the market expressing its will.

707
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: Artists have to be plagiarized. Children need to be presented

708
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: with hours of procedurally generated slop and lies on YouTube

709
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: so that we one day can reach the promise land

710
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: of artificial general intelligence. Iffy isn't it worth it.

711
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's so isn't And it's I didn't know.

712
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 4: You know.

713
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: One of the biggest criticism with AI is that it

714
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: you know, it is one of the effects of when

715
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 2: you know, creativity and commerce meets commerce will always try

716
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: and kill creativity because it is commerce is more concerned

717
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 2: with the the the the the buck than it is

718
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: the outcome or what it takes to get set buck.

719
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: And that was that was going to be a whole thing.

720
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 2: I was going to drop at some point, and they

721
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: just said it for me. They just send like like

722
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: they I didn't. I thought it was more veiled. I

723
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 2: thought it was more hidden. But you know, that is

724
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: that is why you can you can try and say

725
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: that it is ethical to take from artists because we're

726
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: making it easier for you. Your fingie's hurt doing all that drawing.

727
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: But if it learns from you, and and and and

728
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 2: and and you know, uh, don't ask how you're gonna

729
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: get paid, But if it learns from you, we can.

730
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: We can give the people what they want without causing

731
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: you all this labor. You know, but who gets the money.

732
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: It's it's always the dork behind the computer who did

733
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 2: the code that is just essentially stealing from all of

734
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: these people and learning from them and then just producing

735
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: this amalgation of everything they've done.

736
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Also, I should know I'm trying to

737
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: be consistent about this. I wrote it down and then

738
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 1: I think slipped into it. It's Andres and Mark Andrees

739
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: and andresen Horowitz. Uh, it's just a weird name that

740
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: I'm not used to say. I wrote this down and

741
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: then immediately forgot to correct myself at the start of

742
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: the podcast. Again, folks, hack and a fraud. But you

743
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: know who can own well, actually, I won't say only

744
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: humans can be hacks and frauds like that. Because the

745
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: AI is absolutely mispronounced shit and get shit wrong too.

746
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: I guess that maybe they are getting conscious. Can they

747
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: build an AI that's as much a hack and a

748
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 1: fraud as I am. We'll see. So no, thank you, Sophie,

749
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. AGI is treated as an inevitability by

750
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: people like Sam Altman of open Ai, who need it

751
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: to be at least perceived as inevitable so their company

752
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: can have the largest possible IPO. Right, there's a lot

753
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: of money on the line and in the people with

754
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: money believing all of the promises that Andresen is making.

755
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: This messianic fervor has also been adopted by squadrons of

756
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: less influential tech executives who simply need AI to be

757
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: real because it solves a financial problem. Venture capital funding

758
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: for big tech collapsed in the months before chat GPT

759
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: hit public consciousness. The reason cees was packed with so

760
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: many random AI branded products was that sticking those two

761
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: letters on a new company is like they treat it

762
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: like a talisman, right, It's this ritual to bring back

763
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: the rainy season. You know, if you throw AI in

764
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: your shit, people might buy it. Yeah, And it's you know,

765
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: there's versions of this, like laptop makers are throwing AI

766
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: in everything they do now just because like laptop sales

767
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: soared during the start of the pandemic, but they plummeted

768
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: because people, for one thing, don't need to buy laptops

769
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: all the fucking time. Most people wear them out right, yes, exactly.

770
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: And again this comes in. If you can get people

771
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: in the cold, if you can get them scared that

772
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,439
Speaker 1: they're going to fall behind without AI, then maybe they'll

773
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: buy a new AI and I have lap cup top

774
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: because they're like, well, this is what I got to

775
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: do to stay competitive. You know, the terminology that these

776
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: rich tech executives use around AI is generally more grounded

777
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: than Andreson's prophesying, right, but it's just as irrational. The

778
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: most unhinged thing I heard in person at CES was

779
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: from Bartley Richardson, an AI infrastructure manager at Nvidia, who

780
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: opened a panel on deep fakes by announcing, I think

781
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: everybody has a co pilot. Everybody's making a co pilot.

782
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: Everybody wants a co pilot. Right, there's going to be

783
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: a Bartley co pilot maybe sometime in the future. That's

784
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 1: just a great way to accelerate us as humans, right.

785
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: And it's funny he's named Bartley. If you if you

786
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: know your old Star Trek and you can remember Barkley,

787
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: the the Sad insign. He sounds like that guy and

788
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: resembles him.

789
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: Oh man, What's what's funny about that speech is it

790
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: sounds like he's trying to convince himself to that Yeah, yeah,

791
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: we were not wasting our time, are we?

792
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 5: Yeah?

793
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: Yeah again. Later in a separate panel, in Nvidia in

794
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: house council Nikki Pope, who's like the only skeptic they

795
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: let On cited internal research showing consumer trust and brands

796
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: fell whenever they used AI. This gels with research published

797
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 1: last December that found around twenty five percent of customers

798
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: trust decisions made by AI less than those made by people.

799
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: No one on stage bothered to ask Bartley. It was like, Okay,

800
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: you want to use this thing. We know your own

801
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: company has data that it makes companies less trustworthy. Are

802
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: you worried that if you use it people won't trust you?

803
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 5: Like?

804
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: Is that not in your head? And that's that was

805
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: kind of a pattern at CEES all of the benefits

806
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: of AI, with some very very specific exceptions. Most of

807
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: the benefits of AI were touted in vague terms. It'll

808
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: make your company nimble, it'll make it more efficient, you know,

809
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 1: it'll accelerate you harms though, while they were discussed less often,

810
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 1: they were discussed with a terrible specificity that stood out

811
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: next to the vagueness. One of the guys in the

812
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: deep Fake panel was Ben Coleman, and he's the CEO

813
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: of Reality Defender, which is a company that detects artificially

814
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: generated media. Right their job is like, let you know

815
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: if something's AI generated. And he claims that his company

816
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 1: expects half a trillion dollars in fraud worldwide this year

817
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: just from voice cloning AI. Not fraud from AI, just

818
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 1: the fake voice AI happy trillion dollars.

819
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. I here's the thing too that I think is

820
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: the scariest part of AI that I don't think we've

821
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 2: talked about yet is that everyone can use it. You know,

822
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: like it's not this isn't a thing that is like,

823
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: oh well, it's it's you know, these companies is too expensive.

824
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 2: People are priced out, and we just got to hope

825
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 2: that everyone's good. You're getting like SpongeBob rapping Kendrick Lyrics

826
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: on TikTok. You know, we my buddy Bennieam jokingly like

827
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: promoted his show and made it look like he was

828
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 2: having a FaceTime with Obama, and it was like pretty good.

829
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 2: The only reason you knew it was it was fake

830
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 2: was because of just the nature of the video. But like,

831
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 2: at what point is someone going to stop and go, hey,

832
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 2: we shouldn't have technology where someone can impersonate world leaders.

833
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and you know, to be honest, that's not

834
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: even because just because like I think everyone is ready

835
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: for the idea that like, yeah, people are faking Obama

836
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: or by because we've done little versions of that for

837
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: years now. I think the scariest thing is people aren't

838
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: ready for their loved ones to be imitated by AI.

839
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: And that is a thing that is happening in twenty

840
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: twenty three. And this has happened in a lot to

841
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: a lot of people. There was a specific case that

842
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: kind of went viral of this mother who got a

843
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: call from what sounded like her kidnapped daughter and like,

844
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: the AI generated the voice of her daughter, and then

845
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: a guy was like, give us money or will fucking

846
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: murder her? Right, and her kid was never kidnapped. She

847
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: very nearly sent them money because who wouldn't write yea

848
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: like if you don't know that that's a thing that

849
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: can do. Who would not y like, that's a that's

850
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 1: a rock and it's the AI was able to clone

851
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 1: her daughter's voice because her daughter has a TikTok, right,

852
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't take that much, you know. And this is

853
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 1: why by the way that people are talking about ways

854
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: to mitigate this, I think one of them is like

855
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: have a family password or something where it's like, all right,

856
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: if I'm fucking kidnapped, I'm going to say the password

857
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: you know, so that you know some random person with

858
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: your TikTok won't know it or at least has to

859
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 1: try harder to guess it. So great, thanks to AI,

860
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: now we have to have passwords for our families in

861
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: real life. Cool.

862
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to see that Thanksgiving, you got

863
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 2: to know the password.

864
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Fucking great. At CEES and at the substacks and

865
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: newsletters of all these AI cultists, there's no time to

866
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: dwell on problems like these. Full steam ahead is the

867
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: only serious suggestion they make. You should all be excited.

868
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: Google's VP of Engineering Bashad Bazzati tells us during a

869
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: panel discussion with McDonald's executive if you're not using AI,

870
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: bishod warned, you're missing out. And I heard versions variations

871
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: of the same sentiment over and over again. Right, not

872
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: just this stuff is great, but like you're kind of

873
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 1: doomed if you don't use it, And I will give

874
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: Nicky Pope was the only skeptic really who had a

875
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: speaking role in CEES. It is not coincidental that she

876
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: was an academic and a black woman, because her background

877
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: is studying algorithmic bias in the justice system. Yes, and

878
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: so she she she had some really good points about

879
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: like the actual dangers this stuff had. She was on

880
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: this the panel, she was almost governing AI risk and

881
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: kind of her like the partner on the panel. The

882
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: guy she was talking with was Adobe VP Alexandrew Costin,

883
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: and she urged the audience, I want you to think

884
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: about the direct harm algorithmic bias could do to marginalized communities. Quote,

885
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: if we create AI that desperately treats one group tremendously

886
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: in favor of another group, the group that has disadvantaged

887
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: or disenfranchised, that's an existential threat to that group. And

888
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 1: she was specifically like people talk about the existential threat

889
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: of an AI going crazy and killing us all, but

890
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: like that's not as realistic as what we know will happen.

891
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 2: Yes, oh yeah. When you have these banks that like

892
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 2: automatically you know, are using AI to try and approve

893
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: you know, loans, and Deonte sends his name in and

894
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 2: they're like not approved.

895
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.

896
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 2: He's like nah, good, And.

897
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,959
Speaker 1: I am glad she was there. She again she still

898
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: you know, works for a company it's gonna make money

899
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: off of this. She's not like a doomer on it,

900
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 1: but like at least one person was being like, could

901
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: we please acknowledge there are dangerous I.

902
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 2: Know, because here's the thing is and I truly believe this,

903
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: And you were basically saying this earlier that AI as

904
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 2: a tool is fine. You know, yeah, when you win,

905
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 2: it is. And a tool is something that is always

906
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 2: held and used by a human that there's the checks

907
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: and balances. It is only as evil as the person

908
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 2: who's using it. And that is just any item, physical

909
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 2: or digital, will ever, you know, will always be under

910
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: But the moment you're like, I'm going to give you

911
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 2: free reign based on information, and how many times has

912
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 2: an article gone online that was like, it's scanned Reddit

913
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 2: or it's scanned Twitter and it's racist. Now you know

914
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: there's and we still like went full steam ahead with

915
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 2: producing this and thinking we're right and we know, especially

916
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: when you see a lot of these tech leaders being

917
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 2: predominantly white men, and we know that in general, most

918
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: white men don't care about protecting marginalized people. They care

919
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 2: about getting their bottom dollar. They don't see they see

920
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 2: it as a as a rare occurrence because they don't

921
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: live that existence. They don't have the data pun intended

922
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 2: to build something to defend against it because it's not

923
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: a real problem to them because they don't see it

924
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 2: because and that is beyond just them being them and

925
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 2: more into as humans. A lot of times, if you

926
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 2: don't do the work to see it and understand what

927
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: happens to other people outside of your perspective, you're just

928
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: gonna believe that it's it's not real and or people

929
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 2: are exaggerating, or it's this and it's that. And when

930
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: you are a gung ho and you have drunk the

931
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 2: kool aid that is the AI kool aid, and you

932
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 2: are telling people that this is the future, we have

933
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 2: to do it, you're gonna push ahead. But like we've

934
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 2: literally have seen a clear cut example of what happens

935
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 2: when you push past safety and and you just do

936
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: what you want to do just because you have a

937
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 2: whole bunch of money and a mad Catz controller, Like,

938
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 2: it gets dangerous.

939
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: So as you started talking about like the dangers of

940
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 1: certain tools, right and how they the value of the tools,

941
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 1: I literally looked over at the gun on my table, right,

942
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: and we all agree, even people who really like them,

943
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: there should be regulation. And I think the vast majority

944
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: like agree more regulation, but they are like, again, not

945
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 1: to say that it's sufficient, but there are a lot

946
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: of laws about like where you can carry a gun legally,

947
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: how you can buy a gun, right, and because people

948
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: understand that, like, yeah, if a tool is that powerful,

949
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: there should be limitations and things and things that you

950
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: can do that get them taken away from you forever.

951
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 4: Right.

952
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know how we do that with AI,

953
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 1: but I don't think that's a reason not to try. Yeah,

954
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: you do what.

955
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 2: In that movie Hackers, and it's like you're just being

956
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: from the Internet till you graduate at high school or

957
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: whatever it was.

958
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:13,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Now, Costin claimed that the biggest issue again,

959
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: so nicky Pope is like, yeah, I think this stuff

960
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: could really hurt marginalized communities, and Alexandrew Costin from Adobe

961
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: responded that like, well, I agree, but the biggest risk

962
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 1: of generative AI isn't fraud or plagiarism. It's not using AI.

963
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 4: Right.

964
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: He claims, like this is as big as the Internet,

965
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: and we all just have to get on board. And

966
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna read verbatim how he ends this particular statement.

967
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: I think humanity will find a way to tame it

968
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 1: to our best interest. Hopefully great, cool, no way, why awesome, awesome,

969
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: And the whole week was like that again, these really specific,

970
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: devastating harms and then vague claims of like, yeah, we're

971
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: all just gonna have to debt. And I brought up

972
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 1: scientology earlier. But when I think about touting like vague

973
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 1: claims of world saving benefits alongside, and it's going to

974
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 1: hurt too, when you have to accept the pain, I

975
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 1: think of Keith Ranieri, right, the next Sium guy. We

976
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: all remember Keith. You know, like most cult leaders, Ranieri

977
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 1: promised his mostly female followers, you'll get all these benefits.

978
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to like heal you. You'll be extra productive,

979
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: you'll be super good in your business, super good in

980
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 1: your career. But you have to follow my commands because

981
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: they have to retrain you on some stuff, and so

982
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: it's going to be uncomfortable, right, And the end result

983
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 1: of this is a bunch of them branded them their

984
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: flesh and partook in sex trafficking. You know, the techs,

985
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 1: these tech executives are not Ranieri, but I think they

986
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: see money in aping some of his tactics. Right, the

987
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: benefits are so good, we just have to accept some pain.

988
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: You know I got to hurt you to rebuild you better. Now,

989
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: all of the free money right now is going to AI,

990
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: and these guys know the best way to chase it

991
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: is to throw logic to the wind and promise the

992
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: masses that if we just let this technology run roughshod

993
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: over every field of human endeavor, it will be worth

994
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,479
Speaker 1: it in the end. This is rational for them, because

995
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: they're going to make a lot of money, but it

996
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: is an irrational thing for us to let them do.

997
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,919
Speaker 1: Why would we want to put artists and illustrators who

998
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 1: we like out of a job. Why would we accept

999
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: a world where it is impossible to talk to a

1000
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: human when you have a problem, and you're instead thrown

1001
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: to a churning swarm of chatbots. Why would we let

1002
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: Sam Altman hoover up the world's knowledge and resell it

1003
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: back to us. We wouldn't, and we won't unless he

1004
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: can convince us that doing so is the only way

1005
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: to solve the problems that scare us. Climate change, the

1006
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: cure for cancer, and into war, or at least and

1007
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: into the fear that we will all be victimized by

1008
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: crime or terrorism. All of these have been touted as

1009
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: benefits of the coming AI age if we can just

1010
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: reach the AI Promise Land, and we're going to talk

1011
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 1: about some of the people who believe in that promised

1012
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: land and what they think it'll be like. But first, Iffy,

1013
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, it is the real promise Land, the only

1014
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:00,120
Speaker 1: actual paradise any of us will ever know. What by

1015
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 1: from the sponsors of this show, of course, all right,

1016
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: here's an ad All right, we're back. So I want

1017
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: to talk about Silicon Valley's latest subculture, emphasis on the

1018
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: cult Effective Accelerationism or E slash acc e AC, I

1019
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: think is probably how you could pronounce it. The gist

1020
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: of this movement fits with Mark Andrewson's manifesto AI development

1021
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 1: must be accelerated without restriction, no matter the cost. E

1022
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: act has been covered by a number of journalists, but

1023
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: most of that coverage misses how very spiritual some of

1024
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: it seems. One of the inaugural documents of the entire

1025
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: belief system opens with the statement accelerationism is simply the

1026
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 1: self awareness of capitalism, which has scarcely begun. Again, we

1027
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: see a statement that AI has somehow enmeshed itself with

1028
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: capitalism's ability to understand itself. It is some way intelligent

1029
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 1: and can know itself. I don't know how else you

1030
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: interpret this, but as belief in a god built by

1031
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 1: atheists who like money a lot. The argument continues that

1032
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: nothing matters more than extending the quote light of consciousness

1033
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: into the stars, a belief elon Musk himself is championed.

1034
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: AI is the force the market will use to do this,

1035
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: and quote this force cannot be stopped. This is followed

1036
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: by wild claims that next generation life forms will be

1037
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: created inevitably by AI, and then a few sentences down

1038
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: you get the kicker. Those who are first to usher

1039
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: in and control the hyper parameters of AI slash techno

1040
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: capital have immense agency over the future of consciousness. So

1041
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 1: AA is not just a god. It's a god we

1042
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 1: can build, and we can use it to shape our future,

1043
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: the future of our reality, to our own whims. And again,

1044
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: some of these guys will acknowledge maybe it'll kill all

1045
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: of us, but as long as it makes a technology

1046
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: that spreads to the stars, that's worth it, because we've

1047
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: kept the light of consciousness alive. Wow, that's not I

1048
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: don't think the mainstream view, but you can definitely find

1049
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: people saying that shit and they'll be like, if you

1050
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 1: attempt to slow this process down, there are risks, and

1051
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 1: they're saying the same thing, andres you stop it from

1052
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: doing all these wonderful things. But also I do kind

1053
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: of view that as a veiled threat, right, because if

1054
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: AI is the only way to spread the light of

1055
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 1: consciousness to the void, and that is the only thing

1056
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 1: that matters, what do you do to the people who

1057
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: seek to stop you, right, who seek to stop AI?

1058
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 1: I actually am fine with extending the light of consciousness

1059
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: into space. I'm a big fan of Star Trek. I

1060
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 1: just don't believe that the intelligent, hyper aware capitalism is

1061
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: the thing to do it. Again, too much of a

1062
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: Star Trek guy for that. When I look at the

1063
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: people who want to follow Mark Andresen's vision, who find

1064
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: what these each people are saying is not just compelling

1065
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: but inspiring. I think of another passage from that New

1066
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: Yorker article by Zoe Heller quote, not passive victims, they

1067
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: themselves sought to be controlled, Hiki Murakami wrote of the

1068
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: members of om Shinriko, the cult Hu's seren gas attack

1069
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: on the Tokyo subway in nineteen ninety five killed thirteen people.

1070
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,760
Speaker 1: In his book Underground Murka, he describes most own members

1071
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: as having deposited all their precious personal holdings of selfhood

1072
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 1: in the spiritual bank of the cults leader Shoko Asahara,

1073
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: submitting to a higher authority, to someone else's account of

1074
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: reality was, he claims their aim. Now the EAC Manifesto

1075
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 1: newsletter thing use the term techno capital in conjunction with AI.

1076
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: This is a word that you can find a few

1077
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: different definitions on because it's it's a wonky, like weird

1078
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: academia philosophy term, and there's a number of folks who have,

1079
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 1: you know, will argue about how it ought to be described.

1080
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 1: But this is broadly kind of the same thing that

1081
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 1: Andresen is referring to when he talks about the market

1082
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 1: as this intelligent discovery organism. Right, And while there are

1083
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: a few different ways you'll see this defined, the EAC

1084
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 1: people and Andresen himself are thinking about how philosopher Nick Land,

1085
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: who's the guy who's generally credited with like popularizing the

1086
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: term technocapitalism, defines it. Land is one of many advocates

1087
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 1: of the idea of a technological singularity, the point where

1088
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: technological growth driven by improvements in computing becomes irreversible, the

1089
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: moment at which a super intelligent machine begins inventing more

1090
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: and more of itself and expanding tech in a way

1091
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 1: that humans can't. As one of Gland's fans summarized in

1092
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: a medium post, a runaway reaction of self improvement loops

1093
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: will almost instantaneously create a coherent superintelligent machine. It is

1094
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: man's last invention. The most notable of industries AI, nanotechnology, femtotechnology,

1095
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 1: and genetic engineering will erupt with rapid advancements, quickly exceeding

1096
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: human intelligence. Now, obviously the way Land writes is again

1097
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: kind of worth reading, but dense, perhaps two dents for

1098
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: an entertainment podcast. So I'm going to read again from

1099
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 1: a sub stack called Regress Studies by a writer named

1100
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 1: Santi Ruiz, kind of talking about this idea of techno

1101
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: capitalism that Land has from more critical standpoint, quote Nick Land,

1102
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 1: who coined the term is a misanthrope. He doesn't like

1103
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: humans much. So the idea that there could be an

1104
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: entity coming, already being born, drawing itself into existence by

1105
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 1: hyperstitionally preying on the dreams of humanity cannibalizing their desires.

1106
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,959
Speaker 1: Wearing the invisible hand is an ideological skin. He's into

1107
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:13,760
Speaker 1: that technoeconomic interactivity crumble social order in autosophisticating machine runway,

1108
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: as he would put it. And that's good. You're being

1109
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 1: colonized by an entity that doesn't care about you, except

1110
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 1: insofar as you make a good host. We'll talk about

1111
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: hyperstition in a little bit here. So Land is the

1112
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 1: guru of accelerationism. You might not be surprised to learn

1113
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 1: that he has a devoted following among the far right.

1114
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: This is because he is quite racist, anti democratic, and

1115
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: obsessed with eugenics. Now, his eugenics are not your gram

1116
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 1: Pappy's eugenics. For him, it involves gene editing, which will

1117
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: be available to greater extents than every thanks to AI.

1118
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 1: Land claims to disnet like white nationalists and conventional racists

1119
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: because they don't see the whole picture. Quote and this

1120
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: is me quoting from one of Land's publications, Racial identarianism

1121
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: and visages a conservation of comparative genetic isolation, generally to

1122
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 1: by boundaries corresponding to conspicuous phenotypic variation. It is race

1123
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: realist in that it admits to seeing what everyone does

1124
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 1: in fact see, which is to say, consistent patterns of

1125
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: striking correlated multidimensional variety between human populations or subspecies. Its

1126
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: unrealism lies in its projections. That's pretty racist. Land is

1127
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: listed by name and Andresen's manifesto as someone you should

1128
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: read for a better understanding of the wonderful, optimistic future

1129
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: he and his illke plan for us. He cites extensively

1130
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: Grigory Cochrane, who posits that space travel spreading to the

1131
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: stars will solve our race problem because it's a natural filter,

1132
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: basically saying some races won't make it into space, so

1133
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: we don't need to be to be violent, like, we

1134
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: just have to spread to space and that will do

1135
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 1: our eugenics part of it for us. So that's cool.

1136
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm stuck on this, like, you know,

1137
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 2: journey to the Stars through f thing, because I don't know, Robert,

1138
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: do you play Warhammer forty two?

1139
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: Oh? God if he ify, of course I play. I've

1140
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: been playing Warhammer forty K most of my life.

1141
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 2: Okay, because this is sound a very adeptis mechanics, Yeah right, yes, absolutely,

1142
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I'm like, what is going on here,

1143
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 2: I'm deep and well trader, and now I'm like, no,

1144
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: this is them.

1145
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: What is fun is that like Warhammer forty thousand, the

1146
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: deep Fluff envisions a society that it's like a hybrid

1147
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: between the Federation and Star Trek, and what these ai

1148
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: Eyak people dream of that it is this utopia for

1149
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: like ten thousand years because they developed thinking machines and

1150
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: then all of the thinking machines turn on them and

1151
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: murder everybody. And so in the future we just lobottomize

1152
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: people who commit crimes and turn them into computers for

1153
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: us because we can't have intelligent machines anymore.

1154
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 2: So we're just we're going that's what it looks like.

1155
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 2: We're marching towards with these folks.

1156
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And obviously the thing that the Warhammer people are

1157
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: are inspired by is like the but Larry and g

1158
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: Hot and Dune, which is the more artful version of

1159
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: that story with less orcs, which makes it inferior in

1160
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: my mind. But I do love Dune.

1161
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 2: So you need more red because the everything Yeah.

1162
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: Red makes it go faster.

1163
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1164
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: So Land concludes by imagining both racists and anti racists

1165
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 1: binding together in defense of the concept of race. Right,

1166
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 1: that's what the result of AI is going to be.

1167
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: The racists need race. You know, we're going to get

1168
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: so good at gene editing, the racists will get angry

1169
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: and the anti racists will get angry because they're so

1170
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: in love with the concept of race. Well, we're just

1171
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: going to improve people annihilate racial differences through moving to

1172
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: the stars and the natural filter that that implies. By

1173
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 1: the way, the name of the article Land wrote all

1174
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 1: this and is called hyper racism. So cool guy Glad

1175
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: Mark Andresen cites him in his manifest were Glad the

1176
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 1: biggest venture capital guy in the country. I was like, yeah,

1177
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: read this, dude. Yeah, that's the sequel to Flom's hyperrealism.

1178
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: So that's yeah, it is interesting. And these guys don't

1179
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 1: tend to cide it as much. I think you get

1180
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: in some of the deeper stuff. They're all talking about

1181
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,959
Speaker 1: these technocapitalist concepts that Nick Land plays with. They don't

1182
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: talk about what I think is actually one of his

1183
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 1: most sort of insightful points, which's about a concept called hyperstition.

1184
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: And in brief, hyperstition is like creating things in fiction

1185
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: that become real and the process by which that happens.

1186
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 1: I think about that a lot when I think about

1187
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: things like the bootlearry and jihad, the war against the

1188
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: Intelligent Machines and the do in Dune, or you know

1189
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: what happened in the Warhammer forty thousand universe. But I

1190
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 1: also think about how part of why these people are

1191
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: targeting creators, writers, actors, musicians, artists like pen and paper,

1192
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, painting artists and stuff, is because the only

1193
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: way out of this future they have envisioned is in

1194
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: imagining a better one and then making it real, right like,

1195
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 1: and that is a thing that creatives have a role

1196
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: in doing. So if you can kill that ability, hand

1197
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: it over to the machines that you can control, maybe

1198
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: you can stop them from this path of resistance. Motherfuckers,

1199
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: I know.

1200
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 2: They're on there with They're like, you want something better,

1201
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 2: We got to take it away from it?

1202
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, fuck you. So anyway, I think that's going to

1203
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 1: end it for us. In part one, you know, this

1204
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 1: this whole investigation in much more condensed form, just kind

1205
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: of really focusing specifically on the argument there's cult dynamics

1206
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: of the fandom is being published in an article on

1207
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone. I'll probably edit in like the title or

1208
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: something here so you can find it. But check that out.

1209
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: That's kind of the more easily shareable version, more condensed, iffy.

1210
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 1: Where should people check out you and your stuff?

1211
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 6: Oh?

1212
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 2: Man, I'm if you wide away on Twitter and Instagram,

1213
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 2: you know, so definitely peep me there. Listen to our

1214
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 2: relationship pod with if you and Emmy if you want

1215
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 2: to hear us talk about relationship stuff and uh, yeah,

1216
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 2: you have Max Film for movies, but if you go

1217
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 2: to if you widy Way, you'll find all that stuff.

1218
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 2: And of course watch drop something absolutely has been to

1219
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 2: be announced next week.

1220
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: Yes, watch drop Out something cool is coming soon and

1221
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: it's also an extremely human endeavor. Yes, yes, just like

1222
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: this show is, so go with. Uh, I don't know

1223
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:22,439
Speaker 1: whatever god you worship or the machine god you plan

1224
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 1: to meme into being Goodbye.

1225
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 6: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1226
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 6: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1227
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 6: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1228
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 6: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.