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Speaker 1: Are we becoming morning podcast?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: I mean I'm still wiping the sleep out of my eyes.

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Speaker 3: I did finish my coffee.

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Speaker 4: Though, so I'm still sipping on mine a little, A

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Speaker 4: little coffee talk for you, Hi, Chip.

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Speaker 2: How are you good morning?

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Speaker 1: I'm good?

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Speaker 3: How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm good. I feel like I've seen you a lot.

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Speaker 4: It's like always weird when we've been together a lot

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Speaker 4: and I'm like, oh, hi, as if we have to

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Speaker 4: talk to well.

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Speaker 3: You know what's funny is when you were full disclosure.

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Speaker 3: We went out on the lake this weekend in Kentucky

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Speaker 3: and Kelly came the next day. We got there on Friday,

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Speaker 3: she shut up Saturday, and on Friday we were like.

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Speaker 1: I know I came.

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Speaker 3: She was not there on Friday, but we were kind

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Speaker 3: of like we were sitting in the parlor this like

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Speaker 3: bed breakfast and some of our that we were with us,

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Speaker 3: like I feel like I haven't seen Kelly in forever,

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Speaker 3: Like when was the last time you saw Kelly? When?

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Speaker 2: When when was the last time we were with Kelly?

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Speaker 3: And I was for me, I forget that we're often

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Speaker 3: not in the same room because I get to see

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Speaker 3: your face while we're doing this, and I was like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I feel like I see her a lot,

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Speaker 3: but I think the last time I saw you was

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Speaker 3: your birthday dinner, like face to face, oh face, But

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Speaker 3: it doesn't feel like that because I see.

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Speaker 4: Your face this, no, and I feel very caught up

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Speaker 4: on your life like all the time, you know. And

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Speaker 4: then our other friends, if I don't see them, I

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Speaker 4: give way out of the loop. Yeah, oh it is interesting.

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Speaker 4: That's so funny because I feel the same way. Yeah. Then,

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Speaker 4: so it's like we recorded last week, then we stayed

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Speaker 4: together this weekend, and then now it's Monday that we're

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Speaker 4: recording this because traveling this week.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, we've had a lot of togetherness.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and we'll see each other to look at us.

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Speaker 4: We were just having some quality times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That's also why we were probably parting on Monday because

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Speaker 3: of the travels.

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Speaker 4: Well that is why, oh okay, not probably that is

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Speaker 4: that is because I don't want to bring this microphone

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Speaker 4: in Ordia. Yeah, sometimes it's a little tricky to travel

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Speaker 4: with this stuff. Also, sound is always scary to me,

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Speaker 4: Like I need my little sound booth.

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Speaker 1: That what I'm in right now, you know.

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Speaker 4: I like to be safe about that so that you

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Speaker 4: guys don't have to listen to remember that time you

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Speaker 4: recorded in like the hotel lobby.

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Speaker 1: Yes, like what is happening right now?

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Speaker 4: This is actually a professional podcast, but you're literally in

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Speaker 4: the lobby.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't get into my room, so I'm just like

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Speaker 3: sitting in the lobby, probably looking like a fucking weirdo.

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Speaker 4: You looked like a little bit like you didn't have

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Speaker 4: a home for sure that that day. I'm sitting under some.

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Speaker 2: Blanket podcasting to it from anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Such your ad what I is.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, I'm really excited to talk about this topic with

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Speaker 4: you because I feel.

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Speaker 1: Like this is a new thought process for you.

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Speaker 4: And we were talking a little bit before the podcast

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Speaker 4: just about that, and we'll get into it in just

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Speaker 4: a second. But on Wednesday I had doctor Jamie Zucker,

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Speaker 4: who I call doctor z that's her Instagram handle, but

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Speaker 4: she specializes in narcissism and narcissistic abuse, and so she

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Speaker 4: came on the podcast because what's really been irking me

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Speaker 4: lately is when anything goes, whether you want to call

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Speaker 4: it viral or trendy or whatever, it loses its power

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Speaker 4: in our culture. To me and Narcissism has been something

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Speaker 4: that's deeply impacted my life and my relationships, and I've

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Speaker 4: experienced what that can look like and feel like and

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Speaker 4: how terrible it is, and so watching it get dumbed

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Speaker 4: down in our society like everyone's just a narcissist now

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Speaker 4: has been very upsetting for me. So I brought her

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Speaker 4: on the podcast because I thought, well, the best I

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Speaker 4: can do is like really try to educate people on

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Speaker 4: the reality of this word and this topic. And you

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Speaker 4: came out saying exactly what I would have wanted someone

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Speaker 4: to get from that podcast. So do you want to

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Speaker 4: tell the listeners a little bit about what you were

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Speaker 4: saying to me right before we started.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm look, I have obviously known the word narcissists

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Speaker 3: for a long time, but I always just sort of

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Speaker 3: equated it to like someone who loved themselves so much

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Speaker 3: that they just like they're always talking about themselves, they're

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Speaker 3: always posting photos of themselves. Like I'm just like, that's narcissistic.

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Speaker 1: You know, she's a narcissist, right, because.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, it's like I'm not when someone pulls out

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Speaker 3: a camera, I'm often like ugh, you know, like, and

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Speaker 3: so it's so the opposite for me.

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Speaker 2: But I'm also like you do you.

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Speaker 3: Boo, Like, if you love your body and you love

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Speaker 3: all those things and you think you're pretty, then.

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Speaker 2: Post all the photos you want. It still feels narcissistic.

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Speaker 3: But I learned in this podcast that it's so much

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Speaker 3: darker than that, and it's stealth, it's subtle. It's not

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Speaker 3: as obvious as what I thought it to be. And

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Speaker 3: that does not mean that my definition was wrong either,

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Speaker 3: because those are narcissistic tendencies that I was identifying as

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Speaker 3: a narcissist. But I never realized that that true narcissism

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Speaker 3: is really about how it affects other people and not

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Speaker 3: about how it affects the narcissist.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the characteristics that you're describing could be

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Speaker 4: a narcissist, but they also could not be. Like, I

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Speaker 4: don't know Kim Kardashian personally, so I don't know how

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Speaker 4: it ebbs and flows in and out of her life

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Speaker 4: on a bigger scale. And I think, like in this

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Speaker 4: influencer culture, like I used to post stuff all the

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Speaker 4: time like that because I was selling the clothes I

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Speaker 4: was wearing, you know, And I have lately gotten to

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Speaker 4: the place of not knowing how to do that because

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Speaker 4: it feels very much like that. I don't know, like

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Speaker 4: I don't know if it's an age thing or what,

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Speaker 4: but I sort of am like, oh, I don't want

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Speaker 4: to post pictures of myself all the time. I feel

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Speaker 4: gross about it now, you know, because my business has

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Speaker 4: kind of changed. But I don't think that that is

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Speaker 4: always an indicator that someone's a narcissist. And so I

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Speaker 4: was researching that this morning because that was what was

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Speaker 4: really coming to my brain too. And I'm so glad

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Speaker 4: that you brought that topic up because I think that

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Speaker 4: one of the things that doctor Z said that made

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Speaker 4: sense to me was that it's like it if they're

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Speaker 4: like that, Say there's someone that posts all the time

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Speaker 4: on social media and they're just posting selfies about themselves,

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Speaker 4: I mean selfies or things about themselves all the time,

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Speaker 4: and then that carries over into all of the aspects

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Speaker 4: of their life, like all of the different relationships, work, whatever.

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Speaker 4: If everything is just about them all the time, that

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Speaker 4: is probably a person that's high in narcissistic traits, or

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Speaker 4: there could be a person who does that as a

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Speaker 4: business and then they go into their life and the

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Speaker 4: focuses on their kids, the focus is on their partner,

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Speaker 4: the focus is somewhere else. That's probably not a person

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Speaker 4: that's a full blown nars definitely not a full blown narcissist,

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Speaker 4: but maybe not even high on narcissistic traits. Like some

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Speaker 4: of it is just existing in our society, and as

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Speaker 4: far as we know, Kim Kardashian could just be a

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Speaker 4: brilliant brand manager, like she's the brand, you know.

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Speaker 3: Well, it would also like if we take my thoughts

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Speaker 3: pre social media, where we're controlling the narrative, it would

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Speaker 3: almost mean that like any model is a narcissist, like

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Speaker 3: someone that just is making money off of the way

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Speaker 3: that they look. And that's not the case. It's someone

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Speaker 3: is recognizing that in them and photographing them and making

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Speaker 3: them look really great, and it's the way that they

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Speaker 3: make their money and it really has nothing to do

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Speaker 3: with their personality.

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Speaker 2: Right, So I think the social media.

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Speaker 3: Piece of it has just sort of put it under

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Speaker 3: a microscope because it is so much more intentional. But

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Speaker 3: it's also like, you know, Kim was able to rise

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Speaker 3: to fame by just being Kim. I mean, yes, of

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Speaker 3: course she does the modeling and she does the magazine

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Speaker 3: covers and all that shit, but like she can do

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Speaker 3: so much more with her fingertips, you know. So it

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Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean that she's a narcissist. It means that

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Speaker 3: she's figured out how to trade off of her looks.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know her or her life, but it

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Speaker 3: does look like she's actually a good mom, you know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean we just don't until you actually know

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Speaker 4: someone or you're in a personal relationship with them of

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Speaker 4: some kind, I think it would be very hard to say,

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Speaker 4: or if you're like observing relationships that they're in or

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Speaker 4: across the board, like their full life, and we don't

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Speaker 4: really get to see that, right, even though there's a

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Speaker 4: reality show and stuff, like we all know about that.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I think it's a really interesting thought. The

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Speaker 4: one thing I did find when I was researching that

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Speaker 4: topic about like social media, like if someone posts a

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Speaker 4: lot about themselves, is that an indication of narcissism? And

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Speaker 4: an interesting study found that men who post selfies definitely

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Speaker 4: have a tendency to be more narcissistic, whereas women who

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Speaker 4: post selfies a lot or whatever. It's not like it's

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Speaker 4: just could become a part of our culture and something

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Speaker 4: that is like acceptable and normalized amongst women. But if

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Speaker 4: a man is doing it, there's a higher percentage of

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Speaker 4: narcissists found. Isn't that interesting?

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Speaker 3: That's really interesting And it's also why I personally find

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Speaker 3: it interesting is without knowing that fact, I have felt that,

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Speaker 3: like when I go on a guy's page, if it's

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Speaker 3: all selfies, I'm like or Jill run.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: We talked about that a lot with dating profiles. Like

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Speaker 4: I remember back when I was on all the apps

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Speaker 4: and stuff seeing men who would just either post like

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Speaker 4: a ton of selfies or gym pictures or whatever. I

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Speaker 4: was just like, oh, but if you see that a

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Speaker 4: girl doing that, I don't have the same reaction.

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Speaker 2: It's so true.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting.

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Speaker 4: If you want to know actual characteristics of narcissistic personality disorder,

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Speaker 4: you can google that and find the DSM five list,

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Speaker 4: and there's nine characteristics they talk about. And what we'd

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Speaker 4: mentioned on the podcast with Doctor Z is like they

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Speaker 4: do describe narcissism on a sliding scale, so like there's

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Speaker 4: full blown narcissistic personality disorder, which is the thing that

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Speaker 4: they would say you can't change from, like you're not

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Speaker 4: going to be any different. You're not ever going to

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Speaker 4: change or understand what's going on because you don't care.

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Speaker 4: And then there's people who have super low narcissistic traits obviously,

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Speaker 4: and then there's all of us have something, you know.

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Speaker 4: The way she described it to me was kind of

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Speaker 4: helpful because it was if you do something like across

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Speaker 4: the board, So what we were saying about Kim Kardashian like,

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Speaker 4: it might not be across the board. It might just

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Speaker 4: be that she posts a lot, and that could be

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Speaker 4: a business strategy or whatever. But if someone is consistently

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Speaker 4: the same way in every area of their life, then

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Speaker 4: they probably are higher on the narcissistic scale. So that

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Speaker 4: I'll just read the nine characteristics, and they say that

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Speaker 4: you have to have at least five of these to

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Speaker 4: be considered a narcissist. So that I'll just read the

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Speaker 4: nine characteristics and they say that you have to have

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Speaker 4: at least five of these to be considered a narcissist.

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Speaker 4: So grandiose sense of self importance, like expect exaggerating achievements,

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Speaker 4: expecting to be recognized as superior without real accomplishments, too,

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Speaker 4: is preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty,

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Speaker 4: or ideal love of three belief that they are special

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Speaker 4: and unique and can only be understood by or associate

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Speaker 4: with people of like certain high status, or that they're

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Speaker 4: special for some reason. The thing coming into my brain

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Speaker 4: right now is like the terminal uniqueness. Like I see

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Speaker 4: this a lot of times with people where they're just like, oh,

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Speaker 4: my story is so much harder than everyone else's, or

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Speaker 4: like somehow they're the victim of something, and it's like, no,

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Speaker 4: everyone's going through that too, Like you're just so in

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Speaker 4: your own world that you have no idea. Four it

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Speaker 4: requires excessive admiration. Five sens of entitlement. Six interpersonally exploitive,

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Speaker 4: like taking advantage of others to achieve on their own end.

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Speaker 4: Seven lack empathy eight often envious of others. Nine arrogant,

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Speaker 4: haughty behaviors or attitudes. I thought it was interesting because,

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Speaker 4: like the excessive admiration, I think that's what you were

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Speaker 4: like associating. You said, because they just need that, and

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Speaker 4: it's because they think so highly of themselves, and we

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Speaker 4: were like, no, actually they don't, though they need the

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Speaker 4: admiration because they feel so low about themselves, right, it's like.

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Speaker 2: They're drug Yeah, they.

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Speaker 4: Actually hate themselves or they have super low self confidence.

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Speaker 4: So that's where all of these survival skills develop, is

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Speaker 4: needing all of that. The other thing is is, you

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Speaker 4: know they talk about the grandiose narcissism, which I think

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Speaker 4: is what a lot of us would associate with narcissism.

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Speaker 4: There's also something called covert narcissism or vulnerable narcissism, and

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Speaker 4: those are going to be the types that have a

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Speaker 4: lot of these tendencies. Except for the grandiose behavior like

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Speaker 4: the big charming whatever, they're more the quiet, the subtle,

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Speaker 4: the manipulative behind closed doors. But I think the thing

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Speaker 4: that you learn the most from doctor Z was like,

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Speaker 4: it's all about power and control.

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Speaker 3: Right, all about Yeah, that was the one though that

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Speaker 3: the first note that I wrote down from listening was

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Speaker 3: it's all the always an underlying function of power and control.

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Speaker 3: Envything is really interesting to me too, because it's not

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Speaker 3: a trait that you expect from someone that you think

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Speaker 3: is narcissistic.

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Speaker 2: But it then makes so.

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Speaker 3: Much sense to think that envy could drive narcissism because

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Speaker 3: you want to be better or look better or do

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Speaker 3: better than the people around you, So the narcissists qualities

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Speaker 3: would come out when you have to belittle what someone

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Speaker 3: else has done or make their achievements feel like less

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Speaker 3: of achievements because you know they're creeping into your territory

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Speaker 3: and it's taking nothing from you, but you.

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Speaker 2: Have attention, yeah, attention Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But they also then expect you to be envious of

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Speaker 3: like they want so badly for you to be envious

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Speaker 3: of them because their envy is driving that.

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Speaker 1: It's like a mind weird.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I as much as I think it would

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Speaker 3: be really painful to be in a relationship with a narcissist,

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Speaker 3: it can suck.

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Speaker 2: To be a narcissist. Yeah, sad, Like what are the benefits?

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Speaker 3: I don't understand, like it it feels like it's one

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Speaker 3: of those things where it's like if you built your

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Speaker 3: life on a like house of cards, you know, like

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Speaker 3: that is everything. It's everything's a lie and at a

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Speaker 3: certain point, like you can't even remember who you've lied to,

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Speaker 3: what you've lied about, and everything would just crumble. And

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Speaker 3: the fear of knowing that every day is one step

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Speaker 3: closer to that moment would be debilitating for me.

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Speaker 4: I don't know that there's an awareness about that other

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Speaker 4: than the need to protect it at all times, which

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Speaker 4: is why as life goes on, the behaviors amp up,

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Speaker 4: because the more you have at stake, the more power,

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Speaker 4: the more control you have to operate from, you know,

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Speaker 4: or with the envy piece, Like we all come across

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Speaker 4: people who excel at things in their lives, you know,

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Speaker 4: but people are my experience, people with high narcissistic traits

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Speaker 4: cannot hold space for someone else to be winning as well,

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Speaker 4: like to be succeeding in life as well, Like there's

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Speaker 4: only room for the one, and as long as they

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Speaker 4: stay in that position, great, and then everyone else can

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Speaker 4: do all their things as long as it's not competing.

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Speaker 4: But the second it starts to threaten anything about what

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Speaker 4: they deem as like their spot, you'll get taken out.

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Speaker 4: The war begins. It's just like the dismantling of whatever

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Speaker 4: your life or whatever your success is, like they will

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Speaker 4: start in that or that's been my experience. So it's

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Speaker 4: wild though, because you're like, wait, I was never a.

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Speaker 1: Threat to you, what was?

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Speaker 4: It's a really weird experience or like often like if

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Speaker 4: you're in a love relationship or a friendship, like you

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Speaker 4: would just think that the other person on the other

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Speaker 4: side of that would want you to win, Like I

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Speaker 4: want my boyfriend to have the most success, Like I

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Speaker 4: want you to have the most success, Like I want

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Speaker 4: you to be happy in your life and win and

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Speaker 4: like succeed, you know.

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Speaker 2: Like whatever that looks like, Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Like I can't understand feeling like I want to destroy

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Speaker 4: you because you're winning.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I've I've always approached life, you know,

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Speaker 3: because I'm such a sports ball guy, like a team

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Speaker 3: mentality where it's like, if you're winning, it's good for everybody.

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Speaker 1: Like give me, that's another sports.

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Speaker 3: Team mentality.

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Speaker 4: I mean, as much as I've been talking to you lately,

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure I know you anymore.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just a win for one person should be

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Speaker 3: a win for everybody. It should never be a loss

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Speaker 3: for the greater good.

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Speaker 4: What's so weird is that when I've had this situation happen,

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Speaker 4: it's like how I've looked at it is that we're.

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Speaker 1: All on the same team.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the situations where I was feeling like I was

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Speaker 4: being taken out and I'm like, wait what, It's so confusing,

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Speaker 4: this whole dynamic and until you see it, I think

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Speaker 4: you're left thinking like something is wrong with you because

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Speaker 4: it's so mind fucky. But like what doctor Z said,

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Speaker 4: the second you start to see it and that starts

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Speaker 4: to just unravel, you can't not see it anymore, Like

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Speaker 4: you'll start seeing it across the board in your life

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Speaker 4: of all the different ways this could be showing up,

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Speaker 4: or anytime you meet a person high on narcissistic skille,

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Speaker 4: you're probably going to recognize it faster. Like, once you

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Speaker 4: see it, it's definitely not one of those things you

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Speaker 4: can unsee, and you know the danger of it, I think,

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Speaker 4: and so you start being like, I don't want to

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Speaker 4: participate in that anymore, Yeah, because it's never going to

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Speaker 4: end well.

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Speaker 3: Well. One of the things that really struck me with

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Speaker 3: what she said was about the defining moment of when

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Speaker 3: you recognize it. Yeah, she said, it's a moment of

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Speaker 3: clarity when you realize that there are no alternative responses

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Speaker 3: except for the one you don't want it to be.

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Speaker 3: If you accept that to be what it is, your

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Speaker 3: entire view of humanity and of people changes, and your

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Speaker 3: entire view of the world is pulled out from under

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Speaker 3: you and you have to reformulate how you think about

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Speaker 3: and see things. And that's fucking terrifying because suddenly you

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Speaker 3: have to on a molecular level change the way that

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Speaker 3: you see and believe about the world because someone has

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Speaker 3: manipulated or controlled or you know, not cared about you

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Speaker 3: in the way that you cared about them. And it

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Speaker 3: felt symbiotic for a really long time, and then you're like,

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Speaker 3: wait a minute, something's you know, and it's that's really

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Speaker 3: scary to be like, it makes you feel like a fool.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, because there's like a naivety that comes with it,

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Speaker 4: where you're like, why didn't I move in this place?

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Speaker 4: And I dealt with that for a long time. I

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Speaker 4: even talked about that with her, of just that feeling

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Speaker 4: of am I an idiot? But it's like, no, you're not.

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Speaker 4: It's just they're I think a really good Well we

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Speaker 4: just guess. But we also all moved through the world

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Speaker 4: through the lens at which we see things, or how

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Speaker 4: we're wired or how we're built, and I just used

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Speaker 4: to assume that everyone saw things that way.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize I was doing that.

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Speaker 4: But like, yeah, you just assume that the people that

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Speaker 4: you're dating or in a friendship with or even like

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Speaker 4: that you work for would have a good interest for you,

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Speaker 4: because why else are you in a relationship they could

380
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Speaker 4: have that, But it's still just about if as long

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Speaker 4: as they're on top and they're above you and they

382
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Speaker 4: can control you, and if that is the basis of

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Speaker 4: your relationship, and if you buck back at all, if

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Speaker 4: it explodes the relationship, that communicates everything to you, Because

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Speaker 4: like if you and I got in a fight and

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Speaker 4: you said to me, Kelly, you really hurt my feelings

387
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Speaker 4: or I feel like you're being really unfair about this

388
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Speaker 4: for the podcast or whatever, I would want to hear you.

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Speaker 4: I'm not saying I could make the changes necessarily, but

390
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Speaker 4: we could have an open dialogue and I wouldn't personalize it.

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Speaker 1: As like Chip is just out to get me. I've

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Speaker 1: got a distress.

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Speaker 2: Oh I would mind.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I would just be like, let me think about

395
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Speaker 4: what he's saying.

396
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Speaker 1: Is that true?

397
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Speaker 4: Can I see his side, and then like weigh the

398
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,119
Speaker 4: decisions that way. I would want you to feel like

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Speaker 4: an equal partner in all the things that we're doing together,

400
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 4: you know, even just our friendship, Like I want you

401
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 4: to feel hurt. I want you to be happy, like

402
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 4: I want you to feel good like all of those things.

403
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,120
Speaker 4: But if that's not the response you're getting, I think

404
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 4: that's a really big indicator of the dynamic of the relationship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

406
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been mine to open it.

407
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,879
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, And there's a lot of grief that comes

408
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,200
Speaker 4: from seeing it, because I think, like if you hold

409
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,239
Speaker 4: certain people or certain relationships in certain regards and then

410
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,439
Speaker 4: you see it, and then you can't unsee it, Like

411
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,240
Speaker 4: we're saying, it's sad because you have a lot of

412
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Speaker 4: grief around what you thought the relationship was and where

413
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Speaker 4: it is now or what the.

414
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Speaker 2: Reality is, and ultimately and correct me if you think

415
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Speaker 2: I'm wrong.

416
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 3: But she she also said, like, if you're an abusive

417
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Speaker 3: narcissistic relationship, one of the last things you should do

418
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Speaker 3: is let them know that you're onto it totally because

419
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Speaker 3: it would escalate their behavior.

420
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that you should not tell them that you

421
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:00,880
Speaker 2: figured it out.

422
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Speaker 3: So it's almost like it's a fight you're never gonna win, absolutely,

423
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 3: because they're never going to see your side of the story,

424
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,160
Speaker 3: so you kind of have to just bow out and

425
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Speaker 3: protect yourself, which feels like such a fucking pussy move.

426
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Speaker 3: And it also feels like you're forfeiting and you're choosing

427
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Speaker 3: the loss. But if it's a fight, you're never going

428
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Speaker 3: to win. It's like going to war without a gun.

429
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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and like the way to win is not

430
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Speaker 4: she said that, it's not engage. Yeah, and it's not

431
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Speaker 4: what you because it's not what you think it would be.

432
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Speaker 4: I spent so many years being like, if I just

433
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Speaker 4: say this in a different way than this person will

434
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Speaker 4: hear me, you know, And I tried that. This was

435
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 4: multiple different relationships, but I just thought if I could

436
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 4: just word it differently, I must have said it in

437
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 4: a way that they can't understand. So and let me

438
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 4: say it again, let me like figure this out, or screaming,

439
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 4: you know, like getting into the intense fight being like no,

440
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 4: if they see, if they feel the emotion that I'm

441
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 4: feeling or whatever, then we'll be able to understand each other.

442
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 4: I just remember were in all the situations I was in,

443
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 4: there was the moment where it's just like everything drops.

444
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 4: You realize that no matter what you say, how you

445
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 4: say it, when you say it, any of those details,

446
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,199
Speaker 4: it's not going to change anything about them. It's just

447
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,640
Speaker 4: not So you quit. For me, that was in every situation.

448
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 4: One of the most freeing feelings was to be like,

449
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 4: I'm just not going to do this anymore, Like, fine,

450
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 4: you win, right, you win, I'll step back whatever it is,

451
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 4: I'll stay silent. But that's actually you winning because you get.

452
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean the beauty in that is they've

453
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 3: now lost controls and that.

454
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 2: Sort and so you win.

455
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 3: But it feels it's weird because that's the manipulation at play.

456
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 2: That it also feels like you lost, like you gave up,

457
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 2: and well, you did lose.

458
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 4: Being in a relationship with a narcissist or someone who's

459
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 4: highly narcissistic, it's.

460
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 2: A loser's game.

461
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: Is a loser's game.

462
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, if I start to sense it now, I'm like bye, right, Yeah,

463
00:22:59,200 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 4: it's like.

464
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 3: The point of the point of it all, and learning

465
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 3: through those experiences is to never let it happen again.

466
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 2: Yeah.

467
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,479
Speaker 4: I have to be honest with myself when I'm in

468
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 4: a relationship like that. I am not a version of

469
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 4: myself that I like, right, And so if those kind

470
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 4: of characteristics in another person are going to bring out

471
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 4: those sides of me, it is my responsibility to say

472
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,719
Speaker 4: I can't engage in these kind of dynamics, and like,

473
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 4: as much as I would love to be like I'm

474
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 4: strong enough, it will wear me down.

475
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 2: It does.

476
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:27,959
Speaker 1: I'm just human.

477
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 4: So it's like I can have all the head knowledge,

478
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 4: I can have all the practice, I can have all

479
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 4: of my wits about me or whatever and boundaries and

480
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 4: all the things. But if I spend too much time

481
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 4: with a highly narcissistic person, I will get worn down.

482
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 4: That is case and point, and that will always happen,

483
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 4: and so like, I have to really be conscious of

484
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 4: that if I want to keep trying to show up

485
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 4: as my best self in this world. You know, it's

486
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 4: a really tricky dynamic, but I do believe this to

487
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 4: be true that once you see it, you can't see it.

488
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 4: And then the more you kind of stay with that

489
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 4: and allow the truth to be in your vision or whatever,

490
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 4: it's just it changes everything.

491
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 3: So I mean, since you can speak from experience, sure,

492
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 3: what are those red flags that you might recommend somebody

493
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 3: looking for early on so you can fucking they can

494
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 3: bow out before they're in too deep? What are those

495
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 3: red flags that you might recommend somebody looking for early

496
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 3: on so you can fucking they can bow out before

497
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 3: they're in too deep.

498
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I'll only speak because I'm not a doctor,

499
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 4: so I don't want to say like this for everybody,

500
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 4: but the things I recognize in myself, I'll say this

501
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 4: is confusion. If I feel confused in the situation, there's

502
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 4: something wrong. I'm not stupid, So like, right, if I'm

503
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 4: feeling confused and I try to talk and I get

504
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 4: more confused, Like if I try to have a conversation

505
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 4: with a person and I get more confused, something is

506
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 4: going on, like some sort of manipulation, lie gaslighting is

507
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 4: going on. And I know that to be true because

508
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 4: I know that I'm a smart person and I have

509
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 4: an understanding of humans with that, like, I'm not stupid,

510
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 4: so I wouldn't be confused. And I had to really

511
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 4: like get to that confidence within myself because for so

512
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 4: long I was just like, well, I'm just not getting

513
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 4: it or am I missing something, Like I'm not seeing

514
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 4: this clearly. But I've done enough work on myself now

515
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 4: to be like no, because I have other healthy relationships too,

516
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 4: and I don't feel confused. And if I feel confused,

517
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 4: I go talk to the person and we talk it

518
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 4: out clarity. So if I'm never able to get clarity,

519
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 4: and there's always a sense of confusion. Unless I just

520
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 4: go along with what the other person is saying, something's off.

521
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: So that's one.

522
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 4: The other thing for me is I do like I

523
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 4: have like a body awareness about it now, And I

524
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 4: don't really know how to tell people how to get

525
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 4: this because unfortunately it came from a lot of years

526
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 4: of living in dynamics like this. But when I'm talking

527
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 4: to a person with high narcissistic traits, my body tenses

528
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 4: up and I get anxious, and I start to like

529
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 4: worry about saying the right thing, Like I don't want

530
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 4: to offend them. I don't want to like I'm just

531
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 4: really worried about delivery about well, oh, I can't say

532
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 4: that to them, they'll get so upset or whatever. And

533
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 4: when I think about my relationships that aren't with narcissistic people,

534
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 4: I don't think about that. I just speak, I just do.

535
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 4: I just act, And if I need to make amends

536
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 4: for something I did, I will always do that. But like,

537
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 4: I'm not over analyzing every word I say or how

538
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 4: I say it or when I present it or whatever.

539
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 4: That's always a thing for me. That's another indicator. And

540
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 4: then just like the battery drain. Do I feel like

541
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 4: I have been in a reciprocal situation that like fuels

542
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 4: me up too, or like fills me up to or

543
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 4: do I leave feeling just so depleted in and like

544
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 4: who am I like? She gave the example of this woman,

545
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 4: one of her clients who had gotten to the point

546
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 4: of being in the relationship and not even knowing what

547
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 4: flavor ice cream she likes, right, And I know that

548
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 4: sounds like ridiculous to some people, but that was very

549
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 4: much my experience. Is you lose so much of who

550
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 4: you are and you have to be so disconnected from

551
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 4: self to stay in these relationships that you really can't

552
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 4: see left from right anymore unless they're telling you what

553
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 4: it is. So essentially, if you can't feel your own preferences,

554
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 4: if you don't feel like you can stay true to

555
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 4: your own preferences and exist in these relationships, or that

556
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 4: you can. I mean, there's like obviously compromise in all relationships,

557
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 4: but there's a difference, Like there's a big difference between

558
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 4: compromising and like, you know, you and your partner doing

559
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 4: something that's mutually beneficial and you sacrificing and self sacrificing

560
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 4: continuously to the point of not even knowing what you

561
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 4: like anymore or what your fucking name is is Like

562
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 4: that's that's where I got. I was like, I am

563
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 4: just going through so many motions of life and feeling

564
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 4: like if I didn't have this person or one of

565
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 4: the many in my life telling me kind of which

566
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 4: direction to go or like almost correcting my direction when

567
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 4: I would go the way I wanted to go, I

568
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 4: just felt like so confused, like what's the right decision?

569
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 4: And now that I'm in a different place, I'm like,

570
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 4: if I feel confused, I need to sit with my

571
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 4: body and get quiet, and I know, like I'll know,

572
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 4: I need to tap into my intuition, you know, I

573
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 4: need to connect with myself. I need to like journal

574
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 4: it out or whatever, spend time with myself. I got

575
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 4: so dependent I couldn't even be by myself anymore, Like

576
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 4: it just started to be like anxiety all the time.

577
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 4: And then the other thing is like physical. If you're

578
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 4: in a deep narcissistic relationship, you will have physical reactions

579
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 4: like go, look at yourself in the mirror if you're

580
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 4: feeling this, and can you make eye contact and do

581
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 4: your eyes look happy or sad? Like I literally looked

582
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 4: sad all the time. I was so vacant in my eyes.

583
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 4: I was super skinny. We talked about that this weekend.

584
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 4: Like fifteen pounds I think was what.

585
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: I've I mean, and you only weigh sixteen to begin,

586
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 3: so I don't know where.

587
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 4: But I was fifteen pounds lighter than I am right now,

588
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 4: which is yeah, I'm not a big person with so

589
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 4: it was very like skeletal of sad to see. But yeah,

590
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 4: those are the main ones actual.

591
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: Maybe I need to start dating a narcissist.

592
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I don't even make these.

593
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 2: It's the new fad diet.

594
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: There's no more zimpic. It's like, here's how you lose weight.

595
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: There's all the infomas an asshole.

596
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just like it becomes a dating app. With

597
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 4: this guy. You could lose ten pounds. With this guy,

598
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 4: you'll lose twenty.

599
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 3: You'll lose everything, including weight. This is so fucked up,

600
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 3: so dark.

601
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: God, I did not see this going there.

602
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 3: Oh God.

603
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 4: Anyway, those are jokes, and sometimes you do have to

604
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 4: have a sense of humor about this stuff because it

605
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 4: can feel really dark and heavy. So I don't know

606
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 4: if anybody is listening seriously, if anybody is listening and

607
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 4: they're really resonating with the stuff we say and you're

608
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 4: freaking out about your situation, please feel free to reach

609
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 4: out to me, because I know this can be one

610
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 4: of the most isolating experiences and oftentimes people in relationships

611
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 4: with narcissists can't really find an outlet because people don't

612
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 4: believe you for a long time too, you know, especially

613
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 4: if they're not seeing it, which with a lot of situations,

614
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 4: you don't see it for yourself. You have to be

615
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 4: in the relationship because it's so insidious and it's so

616
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 4: psychological too, So if you are experiencing that, please feel

617
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 4: free to reach out to me. You can always email

618
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 4: us at the Edge at velvetsedge dot com, or you

619
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 4: can slide into my DMS personally it's at Velvet's Edge.

620
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 4: I do check all of those myself, so you guys

621
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 4: can do that. Chip what if they want to reach

622
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 4: out to you.

623
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: You know, I can be found on Instagram at Chip Doors.

624
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 3: It's Chip drsch.

625
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 4: And we are growing our podcast Instagram. It's at Velvet's

626
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 4: Edge podcast and it's been fun to kind of interact

627
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 4: with you guys on that I'm loving that. It's just

628
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 4: more intensive information about each podcast. We are going to

629
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 4: keep growing that as well to be more interactive with

630
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 4: you guys. So go follow us there at Velvet Edge Podcast.

631
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 4: You can watch this podcast on YouTube. We are all

632
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 4: the places. We do have a TikTok as well. It's

633
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 4: at Velvet Edge on TikTok. So there you go, come

634
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 4: talk to us, and if you are, definitely if you're

635
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 4: experiencing any sort of situation that you relate to any

636
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: of the things we said with this topic, in particular

637
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 4: about narcissism, definitely reach out because it can be crazy

638
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 4: making so but you are not crazy.

639
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: This is just crazy making shit.

640
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 4: So anyway, we're going to go about our week and

641
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 4: as you guys go into your weekend and you're living

642
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 4: on the edge, I hope you always remember too

643
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 2: A casual night