1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: Writers Caitlin Tiffany and Ashley Featers maybe the country's most 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: astute observers of modern romance. For the past few years, 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: together and apart, they've been publishing one article after another 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: in The Atlantic documenting how Americans are thinking about pairing up, 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: particularly online. Their pieces, from the history of Tinder to 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: the dues and don'ts of social distancing, are sharp, carefully researched, 8 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: and funny. But the one that really caught my attention 9 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: was something they wrote together in February called the Dating 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: Market is getting Worse. Their analysis coincided with an observation 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: I've been making for years. When people let concepts like 12 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: market value and supply and demand guide their love life, 13 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: they end up with the wrong person or with no 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: one at all. My interview with Fetters and Tiffany was 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: first scheduled for the week in March when the world 16 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: came to a screeching halt, so we were forced to 17 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: resort to zoom. Hence the audio quirks throughout this episode. 18 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: But none of those quirks are Ashley's fault. She saw 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: to that I do want people to know Ashley, who 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: is this really super smart writer, is in a closet 21 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: and it's so plainly a closet. It's just it's so 22 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: clearly down different kinds of women's clothes draping down around her. 23 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: I hope the sound is worth it. I hope the 24 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: acoustics are are as good as I've heard. Once everyone 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: got settled in their home studios, we got down to business. 26 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: Caitlin situated the dating market problem in a broader national context. 27 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: In our American capitalist context, we are trying to think 28 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: that markets are inherently fair. So if you start thinking 29 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: about dating as a as a marketplace, um, I think 30 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: that leads you to kind of dangerous thoughts about, well, 31 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: the market is not being fair to me, this is 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: what I deserve from others, like and then you start 33 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: to blame people when things aren't aren't going the way 34 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: that you'd like it to do. Is that something that 35 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: you saw that during your research and your writing of 36 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: these articles. Sure, yeah, I think you see it in 37 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: really extreme ways on like sub credits, where there are 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: you know, men who think the government should assign them 39 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: a girlfriend. That's like the extremist end. But I think 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: you see it. Like in a lot of conversations about 41 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: the conversations I have with my friends about dating, we 42 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 1: would definitely say like, oh, it's not fair that you 43 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: are like you can't find someone of your caliber, or like, 44 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: it's not fair that this guy who is not on 45 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: your level is treating you poorly. Like I think we 46 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: definitely use that language without even thinking about it. When 47 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: I got married the first time, I was at a 48 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: pretty good place in my career, and I thought, well, 49 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: I'm the captain of the football team, who's the head 50 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: cheerleader here on the campus. That's who I should be 51 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: married to, like, and they're going to kind of market 52 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: value world of it. I thought, well, there's a woman 53 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: I need to be with. I need to be with 54 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: that kind of woman. My question for you, Ashley is 55 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: the same. Do you think that thinking about dating as 56 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: a marketplace is ill advised? I do. Um, I think 57 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: I've got, you know, another couple of reasons. I can 58 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,959 Speaker 1: mention that that built on top of what Caitlin said, Um, 59 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, for starters, when you're shopping for something at 60 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: a in a literal market, shopping for a material good. 61 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: I mean to put it very plainly, you don't have 62 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: to consider how that material good feels about you. So 63 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: for starters, it's a little bit of an incomplete way 64 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: to think of it. Also, it's sort of assumed that 65 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: if you're literally shopping for something, you know, address or 66 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: a pair of headphones or something, you will stop shopping 67 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: once you have it. And dating is different obviously, like 68 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: you might meet someone that you like but then keep 69 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: going on dates, or you might have multiple people that 70 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: you sort of keep in our rotation and never you know, 71 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: pick one and pare down the others. Right. Um. So 72 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: it like if it works anywhere the market metaphor works 73 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: better for marriage that does for dating, because that's at 74 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: least assumed in most people's mind to be a one 75 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: to one and you know, more permanent transaction or more 76 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: permanent match. Um. But I think the biggest flaw in 77 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: understanding dating to be kind of a shopping or a 78 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: market or an economic transaction, um is that, you know, 79 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: thinking of humans as materials as material goods fails to 80 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: account for like the fact that what you want, what 81 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: you really want, might not be at all what you're 82 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: looking for. I think you kind of you know you 83 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: you mentioned this, um, you know there's this concept that 84 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: like the dating coach Logan Uri, who I talked to 85 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: for um this story that KITL and I wrote together, Um, 86 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: she calls it relations shopping, which I think is what 87 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: you were mentioning a little bit right. You you you start 88 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: to think like, oh, here's the parameters of what I want. 89 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: Here are my preferences, so I'm only going to look 90 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: within these margins, And of course that sort of fails 91 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: to account for the fact that humans are like chaotic, interrational, 92 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: and what we want is influenced by how we see ourselves, 93 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: and how we see ourselves is influenced just as much 94 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: by how we were brought up as what our morning 95 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: was like. So you know, thinking of um, of dating 96 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: as a transact in or something that you shopped for 97 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: a partner or something you shopped for really, um, it 98 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: really just fails to account for the chaos and kind 99 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: of the magic of finding a partner. You talk about 100 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: how dating outside of your social network began at the 101 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: end of the nineteenth century, where people are going to 102 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: places specifically to meet other people beyond arranged marriages and 103 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: beyond your hometown or what have you. And I'm wondering 104 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: have social apps have these dating apps proven that that's 105 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: a good thing? And I always laugh when someone would 106 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: show me these apps that it would say I want 107 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: someone within twenty miles fifty miles of my zip code. 108 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: I always found that very humorous, and I'm wondering, but 109 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: is it working? I have found that, Um, you know, 110 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: lots of people I've talked to have said, you know, 111 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: this person lived in my neighborhood and we never would 112 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: have met. This person lived one town over, and we 113 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: never would have met if it weren't for Tinder, if 114 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: it weren't for Bumble, if it weren't for you know, 115 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: all these myriad of dating apps that we have at 116 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: our fingertips. Now, UM, I mean I think you know, 117 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: there's there's a well a well publicized, well traad argument 118 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: that the endlessness of options is paralyzing in itself, and 119 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: that's its own problem, I think. But UM, I do 120 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: think that there are you know, tangible cases and like 121 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: observable cases where you know, people met met partners and 122 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: met you know, the love of their lives that they 123 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: would not have found, um if they'd only been looking 124 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: in their own immediate obvious social circle. Yeah, we're far 125 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: enough along at this point where there's pretty good survey 126 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: data and people say that they have started relationships, have 127 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: started marriages because of dating apps. I think this the 128 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: stigma has been largely removed to meeting on dating apps 129 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: as well. Like um Pete Buddha Judge has that he 130 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: met his husband un hinge in his New York Times 131 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: wedding announcement, so like it's pretty much accepted at this 132 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: point that people do meet that way. And I guess, 133 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: just in my personal experience, most of my real sationships 134 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: have started because of dating apps um and with people 135 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: that I would never have met in another way. Uh. Now, Caitlin, 136 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: you're the oldest of four sisters. Correct, yes, And when 137 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: you grew up did your parents remain together your entire childhood? Oh? Yeah, 138 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: they're still together. My mom still has crushed feelings. Now 139 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: you now, with that in mind, did your mother or 140 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: father or both offer you any advice about dating and 141 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: your love life? And well, my parents met in high 142 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: school when they were fifteen, So I think most of 143 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: my adulthood has been spent being frustrated with them that 144 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,239 Speaker 1: they have like no relevant experiences to share whatsoever. Every 145 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: time I had a bad breakup, I was like, you, 146 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: guys don't understand, this has never happened to you, don't 147 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: talk to me. UM. I mean they try though, sure 148 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: they try. And you have three sisters, where do you 149 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: fall in line in that order? I'm the oldest. What 150 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: kind of advice have you and your siblings given each 151 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: other about dating? My youngest sister is eighteen, so she 152 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: doesn't factor in that much, UM yet. But um, the 153 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: other two are one and and they're they're much better 154 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: at dating than I am. So if anything, I feel 155 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: like they give me advice. What do you attribute that to? Um, 156 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: I'm just like a bookish personality. UM, I was very 157 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: judgmental of boys in college. I thought they were very 158 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: stupid and like not worth engaging with. I would say 159 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: my sisters are more compassionate, empathetic individuals, so they just 160 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: have an easier time connecting with people. For you, Ashley, 161 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: When people using these apps swipe right, what's usually among 162 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 1: the first criteria? Is it purely physical? That's a great question. 163 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: What I will say is like, I I think it's 164 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: it's very tailored to individual people. I know some people 165 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: are on their purely looking at what does this person 166 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: look like? And that then making you know, decisions swipe 167 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: left or swipe right based on just that. Um. I 168 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: know other people are kind of like, oh, i'd like 169 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: to know, you know, how much education this person has. 170 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: I'd like to know, you know, what religion this person practices. 171 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: I'd like to know how tall this person is? Is 172 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: a really big one. It's a really big one, I 173 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: think for both genders. But um, yeah, I mean I'm 174 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: five eleven, and so when I was you know, in 175 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: the brief time that I was ever using apps, that 176 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: was a big priority of mine was how tall is 177 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: this person? Um? But I think you know, that's one 178 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: thing that that app developers have noticed too. And then 179 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: so I think you know, when you're looking at individual apps, 180 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: you'll see that they've answered that question of like how 181 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: much do people want to know about each other? Um, 182 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, when they're just swiping in different ways, I 183 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,599 Speaker 1: think you'll find, you know, Tinder is kind of the 184 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: the bare minimum of like, Okay, here's everybody in your 185 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: radius who you know, and there's a here's a picture 186 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: that's kind of the first thing you see about them, 187 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: and you know, here's their name in their age, and 188 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: you know, there's not much more than that, Whereas you know, 189 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: if you look at something like coffee meats, bagel or 190 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: hinge nowadays, like they'll they'll have many more props for 191 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: like how would you answer this question? Or like what's 192 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: your favorite x y z um. So, I think you 193 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: know people are looking for different dating experiences, and I 194 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: think you know, to the credit of app developers, they 195 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: have um have met those needs or met those desires. 196 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: I had a friend who was older, and he said 197 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: these dating apps minimize serendipity and fate in people's lives. 198 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: He said, people today are never going to be staring 199 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: into each other's eyes, having a cheap Italian meal with 200 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: a candle jammed into a bottle of Mattuse rose and 201 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: getting to know each other in real time, and you're 202 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: discovering even though that person might not be your fantasy, 203 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: you get to know them and you become really attracted 204 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: to them. He said. The thing he hated most of 205 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: all was GPS, because getting lost might be the greatest 206 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: thing that ever happened to you. Um, I would say 207 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: first of all that I think dating apps still do 208 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: allow for a lot of serendipity and definitely still out 209 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: for romance because you know, Um, just like the odds 210 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: of being on the app at the same time as 211 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: someone else, and then I think are pretty slim. And 212 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: then a lot like most of the dates that I've 213 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: gone on have been sort of impulsive, like let's go 214 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: get a drink tonight, um, and most of them are bad. Yeah, 215 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: like them are terrible. But then once have you ever 216 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: walked out? Oh? Yeah? Actually, just a couple of months ago, 217 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: I went on a date with somebody who asked me 218 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: how many people I had had sex with, like pretty 219 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: much ten minutes after we sat down. So I left 220 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: that date. Um, you talk about me? I mean, do 221 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: you still think? I'm asking? Do you still use these apps? Now? 222 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: Are you still on these apps? Now? Well? I actually 223 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: just deleted the apps a few weeks ago because I 224 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:56,119 Speaker 1: met somebody on Tinder, like in March, right before the pandemic. 225 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: But I met him on Tinder, so so so you 226 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: literally felt I guess the question is, did you feel 227 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: that once I met whatever his name is, it's time 228 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: I can just retire my apps now? Sure? Yeah, I 229 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: think the pandemic really pushed up the timeline for that. 230 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: Normally I wouldn't delete the apps until there was like 231 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: an official conversation about exclusivity. But during the pandemic, you 232 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: know that conversation becomes a little irrelevant. Um, you know 233 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: you already have to be like, well, if you're coming 234 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: over here in my house, you better not be going 235 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: over into other people's houses too. That was Caitlin Tiffany 236 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: alongside co author Ashley Fetters, discussing their Atlantic magazine article 237 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: the Dating Market is Getting Worse. Two other super smart 238 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: women with a lot to say about modern love or 239 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: Erica Jong and her daughter Molly Jong Fast, speaking here 240 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: about her mom's second marriage. We knew that you couldn't 241 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: be married and fool around. You couldn't be married. And 242 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: secrets to their marriage. They have different bathrooms, right, They 243 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: each of their own bath and they're tired. They're too 244 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 1: tired to do new curtains and bookshelves. The reason why 245 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: we got married rather than lived together was because he 246 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: said to me, if we just lived together, one day, 247 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: we'll have a fight and you'll say I'm leaving or 248 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: I will we have a bad record. If we get married, 249 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: we know we're going to make it work. For my 250 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: full conversation with Erica Jong and Molly Jong Fast text 251 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: Jong's to seven zero one. That's j O n g 252 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: s to seven zero one, and we'll send you a link. 253 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: If you're looking on iTunes, you'll get the interview packaged 254 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: with Lorne Michael's that's quite a two fer more with 255 00:13:54,800 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: Ashley and Caitlin in a moment, I'm at like Baldwin 256 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: and this is here's the thing. It surprised me the 257 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: degree to which Ashley Fetters and Caitlin Tiffany defended online 258 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: dating as we spoke, given their frequent written critiques. So 259 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: I asked Caitlin to focus for a moment on the pitfalls. 260 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: Because there are so many profiles to go through, you 261 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: can sort of start sorting people into broad categories pretty quickly, 262 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: which is just the way your brain works, like it 263 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: needs to come up with a sorting heuristic otherwise you're 264 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: going to be completely overwhelmed. So after you know, years 265 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: of being on Tinder, I definitely felt like I was 266 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: getting jaded and not really um treating people as people 267 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: all the time, just being like, well, okay, um that 268 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: I used to feel bad about leaving a date early 269 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: if I got there and I immediately knew I wasn't 270 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: attracted to someone I would still sit and try to 271 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: talk to them for at least an hour, and because 272 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: I didn't want to hurt their feelings. But in the 273 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: last year, for sure, I would down my glass of 274 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: wine in fifteen minutes then be like, Okay, I'm not 275 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: really feeling this, like have a good night by which 276 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: I feel like it is kind of I don't know, 277 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: it's my prerogative to do, but it's also not super kind. Um. 278 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: I would say that is the downfall up dating apps 279 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: is that it becomes too efficient. No, Ashley, what about you? 280 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: What do you think the I mean, there are strengths 281 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: to it, which obviously, what do you think of the drawbacks? M? Yeah, totally. Well, 282 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: I I'm a little bit older than Caitlin. I'm thirty, 283 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: and I am old enough to remember, you know, the 284 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: time before dating apps, and I remember what it was 285 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: like to just not go on a date for a 286 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: while and not be able to find anybody to go 287 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: on a date with. And um, you know, I think 288 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, I remember, you know, going on a date 289 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: and being like, Wow, I'm not that wild about this guy, 290 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: but maybe I'll go on another date, you know, maybe 291 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: I'll stick it out and see you of things that 292 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's a spark, materialize this, and I would, 293 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, give things a longer time to prove me 294 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: wrong initially, you know, I give things some time to 295 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: blossom if they were going to. Whereas I feel like, 296 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: did that, what did that work? Did you did you 297 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: give people a chance and it turned out that that 298 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: was a smart move? It's not really, But I'm in 299 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: a long term relationship with someone that I feel like 300 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: I pretty much knew instantly that uh that so I 301 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: am now yeah, yeah, so I have to say that 302 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: approach did not really served me the way I intended 303 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: it to. But yeah, no, I think I think dating 304 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: ap to really solved a scarcity problem, but they created 305 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: a problem of like, you know, endless options right where 306 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: you're you're, you know, on a first date with someone. 307 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: It's not going perfectly, so you might be more inclined 308 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: to say, like next and you're trading up. If you're 309 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: trading up, you are, yeah, and it makes you feel like, 310 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: you know, if this person is not the one, then 311 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: the one is probably the next person you're going to 312 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: go out with. Whereas, you know, when there was a 313 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: scarcity of dates that made you sort of sit down 314 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: and give a longer period of consideration. Do you think 315 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: actually that these apps are the interruption of a natural process, 316 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: that the path towards finding somebody is something that involves 317 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: a serious expenditure of time. Is it an interruption? I 318 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: don't think so actually. Um. I think what's important to 319 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: remember about dating apps is that all they do is 320 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: connect humans to each other, right, and whether those humans 321 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: are compatible or not compatible, or interested in each other 322 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: or not. Um. I think those facts will be the 323 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: same whether you meet over a dating app or not, right, 324 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: And so you know, it's it's so important to remember 325 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 1: that there's a human element here and once you're once 326 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: you have matched on the app, and the app you know, 327 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 1: puts you in touch and then you can say, like, hey, 328 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: let's meet face to face. Like it reverts right back 329 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: to the old formula I think of dating and of um, 330 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, partner searching. Right, it's your your back at 331 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: your back at like kind of the old school um, 332 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: the old school question of like is this the person 333 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: I want or not? Um? So I think, you know, 334 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: I think it gives it an interesting different prelude, like 335 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: you might encounter this person in a different way, or 336 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: might you know, encounter this person who is outside the 337 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: range of people you might have otherwise met without a 338 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: dating app. But I think once you once you're in 339 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: that stage of like I am on a date with 340 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: a person I met, most things look the same. You know, 341 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: when I met my wife, Laria, and I met her 342 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 1: in a in a restaurant and she walked by and 343 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: I said some preposterously stupid line to get her to 344 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: sit down with me. The sense I got of her, 345 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: you know, there was a warmth and a generosity to 346 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: her and a humanity to her that just came off 347 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: of her very very quickly. I mean, do you think 348 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: if you saw your wife's picture on a dating app, 349 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: do you think you'd swipe right on her? And do 350 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: you think you'd still feel that same energy that you 351 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: felt when you met up with there? Well, I don't 352 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: know about the energy question. I I don't know. She 353 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: was this gorgeous woman. I mean, she was my feminine ideal, 354 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of what she looked like. But 355 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure that I would have let that 356 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: govern me. The one story I will tell you was 357 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: when I did make a connection to somebody on the 358 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: dating app, when I was single, and I had masked 359 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: who I was. What I stumbled into was this absolutely 360 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: hilarious scenario. The woman said to me, I want you 361 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: to know I'm married. And she lived in southern California, 362 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: and she said, but I want you to know my 363 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: husband is gay. Uh. And my husband uh, he we 364 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: were friends and we got married and we've been together 365 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: and he was always fighting that he was gay, and 366 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: finally he's decided to live his life as a gay man. 367 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: We're and we're still friends and we have a child together. 368 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: We have a son. And she said, so you come 369 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: down to my house. My husband's a huge fan of yours. 370 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: He loves you. We think you're great. Like not at 371 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: all what I had dreamed dating would lead me to, 372 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: you know. It was like you wind up getting an 373 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: entree in people's lives. And if you don't mind my asking, 374 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: did you meet your current partner on a nap? I 375 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: didn't know the people who didn't meet on that, but 376 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: we met in two thousand and sixteen at a birthday party. 377 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: How tall is he's about six foot three. My daughter, 378 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: my older daughter, Ireland, had these boyfriends. She did. She's 379 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: six too, that's and she would date these guys. You know, 380 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: they would walk ahead of me, and the guy kind 381 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: of came up to her shoulder, you know what I mean. 382 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: And I thought, I wonder how long this is gonna 383 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: last when you know, and the guy she's with now 384 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: is like six four, and I go, this is the 385 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: first real shot she's got. Yeah. Yeah, there's a thing 386 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: that happens where, you know, if you're the tallest people 387 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: at a party, you know, you make I contact over 388 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: everyone else's head, and you know, I want to swerve 389 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: here towards the COVID thing. Are these dating apps now 390 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: exploding in the age of the virus? Usage is up? Um? 391 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: I think you know it's that's probably a function of 392 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 1: people being stuck at home kind of board 'm not 393 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: sure what else to do with their time. Um. And 394 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: you know, it's a familiar activity that you might lead somewhere. 395 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: It might lead you to a fun, flirtatious conversation. UM. 396 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: So I can see why, you know, even though people 397 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: can't meet up, they might still be UM browsing. But 398 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: I'd love to know what Caitlin says about that. Yeah, 399 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: Like major dating apps have been adding new features that 400 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: are specifically for pandemic dating. So like, yeah, like Tinder 401 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: has video chat an app now which I can only 402 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: imagine what kind of moderation challenge that is. Um But 403 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: most of the major dating apps have have added video 404 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: calls directly in the app so that you don't have 405 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: to like schedule a separate FaceTime call or whatever else. 406 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: And I think Bumble as well has like a badge 407 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,239 Speaker 1: you can add to your profile that basically says like 408 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: I'm open to mote dates. And you know, I've also 409 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: been reading anecdotal stuff and there was an essay in 410 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: the Paris Review about um like sexting with people out 411 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: of dating apps. So I think if it's up there 412 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: in the in the Paris Review, and then it's pretty common. 413 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: What a perfect resource for that observation. The Paris Review 414 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: George Plimpton is going to give us the update on 415 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: how people are video sexting, which brings me to another 416 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: question I had, which is that a friend of mine 417 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: who shall remain nameless, told me he became aware of 418 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: a video sexting gathering where ultimately a hundred and fifty 419 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 1: men were all servicing themselves live in real time in 420 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: the auto erotic tradition, and fifty of them at the 421 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: same time, and I'm wondering, are we on the verge 422 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: because of the pandemic of flat out sexuality played out 423 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: in dating apps. Caitlyn oh me, Um, Well, while I 424 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: can't really imagine myself personally stumbling into like a hundred 425 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: and fifty person virtual orgy, and I think that will 426 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: probably remain like a you know, like a special occasion, 427 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: once in a while type thing. Um, I do actually 428 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: think the pandemic maybe is making people more frank about 429 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: their sexuality and about like their desire for intimacy. I've 430 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: seen a lot of people on Twitter and Instagram who 431 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: I follow professionally who are being pretty frank about like, 432 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: you know, this sucks. It sucks that nobody's having sex, 433 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: Like they just say that. I saw like a woman 434 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: that I interviewed for a story, Um a while back, 435 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: she tweeted yesterday like, am I toold to post a 436 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: picture of my butt on Instagram? Like? People are just 437 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: going for it? Which I think is kind of fun. 438 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: You know, I don't, I mean, I'm for it. I 439 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: think what Caitlin said is is spot on. You know, 440 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: people are being much more frank about how lonely they are. 441 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: People are being more frank about you how much they 442 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 1: would like to be having sex when they're not um 443 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: and I think you know, on the other on the 444 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: other end of that, like the pandemic has really normalized 445 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: a lot of virtual interactions that weren't part of our 446 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: daily lives before. But I don't know that I necessarily 447 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: see a lasting overlap between those two. Like, if you 448 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: think about a one and fifty person orgy taking place 449 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: over zoom, it's like all of the fun parts of 450 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: an orgy are absent from that transaction, right, Like, I 451 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 1: would imagine the real life counterpart to that is much 452 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: more satisfying than the zoom version, you know. I I'll 453 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: be honest here, I'm not in the in the habit 454 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 1: of going to orgies, but I would imagine that part 455 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: of the the appeal is the closeness and the touch 456 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: and the smell, right, and you lose all those things 457 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: you busted me there. I just wasn't the same as 458 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: the real orgies I've been to. Mean, a hundred and 459 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: fifty guys in a room together, now that's thrilling, but 460 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: online it's not the same. I mean, I think Caitlin 461 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: and I have talked about this before, just kind of 462 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: on our own time. We both have seen a lot 463 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: of people on Twitter and on Instagram and social media, UM, 464 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: just talking about how much they can't wait to go 465 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: to a bar, can't wait to go to a wedding, 466 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: can't wait to hug their friends, can't wait to, like 467 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: you said, you know, go to a party in the 468 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: Bronx even though they live in Brooklyn. UM, you know, 469 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: go out of their way to attend a birthday party 470 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: for someone that they might not otherwise make the effort for. UM. 471 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right that we are going to 472 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 1: see a larger social effort than what we've seen in 473 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: you know, years past. UM. I was reminded by Adam 474 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: by producer these apps are used by people in college, 475 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: and I thought, how weird because you're at college there 476 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: to meet people and to congregate with them and to 477 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: interact with them, and they're right down the hallway in 478 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 1: a dorm. You know, why do you think so many 479 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: people in college are using dating apps. Tinder came out 480 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,959 Speaker 1: in I believe, so I was in college, but it 481 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: was still considered like a weird thing to do at 482 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: the time, So I didn't really know anybody who was 483 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: using a dating app when I was in college, but 484 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,959 Speaker 1: my younger sister, Um, definitely, who's in college now, definitely 485 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: uses them, I think because it removes a lot of 486 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: the awkwardness of having to, you know, approach someone that 487 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: you're friends with, who's in your friend group and be like, 488 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: maybe I want to be romantic with you, because that 489 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: is really like fraud, especially in college when all of 490 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: your friend circles overlap. But isn't that what everyone was 491 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: doing prior to these apps? Yeah, for sure. But I 492 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: think also, I mean when I was in college, I 493 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: was just afraid of everyone, so that's why I barely 494 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: dated it all in college. So dating apps might have 495 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: made things easier for me, especially since I went to 496 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: such a large school like um, I think there was 497 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: like four thousand kids in my class, so it would 498 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: have been probably beneficial. I mean, I probably would have 499 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: met people outside my social circle. Um. What would you say, Caitlin? 500 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: Is your advice a caution, some kind of suggestion you 501 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: have for people when they use apps? What? What's What's 502 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: something they should try to keep in mind or avoid 503 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: all together? My advice is not to rack up matches, 504 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: just to rack up matches once you get to a 505 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: number like seven eight, maybe you should send messages and 506 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: start conversations and play all of those matches out before 507 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: you go back and look for more um, just because 508 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: otherwise people become like completely interchangeable baseball cards to you 509 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: and Ashley, UM, I would say, just go on a 510 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: date before you lose the momentum of you know, we've 511 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: talked for a week on this on this app, and 512 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: now we don't really know what happens next. I think 513 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: just go for it. If it's someone that you're talking 514 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: to that you like, meet them in person. I want 515 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: to thank you both. Ashley. I'm assuming your boyfriend is 516 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: in the pantry hiding among the pasta. I gave him 517 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: the apartment. I'm in the closet, so you know, he 518 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: owes me one no time, but listen, stay safe and 519 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: thank you both for your time. I appreciate him. Thanks all. 520 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: This was great. Yeah, thank you for having us. It's fun. 521 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 1: Ashley Feathers and Caitlin Tiffany, co authors of the Dating 522 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: Market is getting worse on the Atlantic dot com. At 523 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: the time of our conversation, both women were staff writers 524 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: at The Atlantic, but pandemic era adds sales and the 525 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: end of live events had taken their toll at that 526 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: devenorable institution. Ashley was among the victims whom the magazine 527 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: praised as exceptional and beloved even as it let them go. 528 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: It was Ashley's second stint at the magazine, where she 529 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: had started her career eight years ago. That's right, Yeah, 530 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: my first my first job out of college was actually 531 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: at The Atlantic. Was coming back to the Atlantic. Always 532 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: the plan is that what you wanted? Um, you know, 533 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: I turned out to have too much of a plan 534 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, what I want my whole 535 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: career to look like. I don't want to be disappointed 536 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: at the end of all of this. But um, I 537 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: would say, it really felt like a homecoming to come 538 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: back to The Atlantic. Um, you know, it had grown 539 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: a lot since I was there last, but I had 540 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: to so it really felt like a welcome return. If 541 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: you're looking to hire a brilliant writer, check out at 542 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: Ashley Fetters on Twitter. That's f E T T E R. S. Caitlin, 543 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: who covers technology as well as love and romance, remains 544 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: on the staff. I'm Ale Baldwin and this is Here's 545 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: the thing.