WEBVTT - Cannibalism (featuring Volker Rudolf) 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.520 I was interested in animal behavior, and for my master's degree, 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.880 I was studying juvenile smallmouth pass So I went out 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.200 in the wild and after getting all of the permits 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:16.919 I needed, I brought a bunch of them back into 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:19.159 the lab and they were like these little guys. And 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:21.480 as they were growing up, I noticed that the number 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:24.239 of fish in the tanks was going down, and I 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.680 was totally stuffed. The water quality was great. I wasn't 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.040 finding any dead bodies in the tank. They weren't like 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:33.360 getting sucked into the filters. I was crawling around on 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:35.800 the ground trying to see if they were somehow getting 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:37.839 out of the tanks despite there being a lid on 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.160 all of the tanks. And then one morning I walked 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.080 into the environmental chamber and I was shocked. One of 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:49.600 the fish had a giant tail sticking out of its mouth. 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.240 It had not occurred to me that they were eating 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:54.960 each other like one. It hadn't occurred to me because 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.400 the fish in the tank were pretty similarly sized, and 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.160 this was not the first time in my life. I 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.960 was going to be amazed at how big prey items 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.840 are for these basts, like how much food they can 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.160 fit into their gigantic mounds, so they were apparently able 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:11.880 to eat each other even when they were like pretty 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.840 close to the same size. But also I was totally 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.959 naive to how common cannibalism apparently is in the animal Kingdom. 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:22.360 I was like, you can't eat your brothers and sisters, 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.160 but no, absolutely, they were totally fine with that. And 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.600 that's what we're going to be talking about today is 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.319 cannibalism in the animal Kingdom. We're gonna mostly be talking 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.399 about non human animals and it's going to be quite 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.039 a ride. We're interviewing Folka Rudolph and he'll tell us 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.480 all about his research in this field. Welcome to Daniel 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:44.400 and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. 0:01:45.000 --> 0:02:02.120 Lone epetite. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:03.600 Do Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. I'm Daniel, I'm a 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.919 particle physicist and I've never eaten a human being. 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.400 I'm Kelly Waider Smith. I also have never eaten a 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:13.120 human being, no desire to do so, but as an ecologist, 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:15.880 I have seen lots of animals eating other members of 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:16.679 the same species. 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.200 Well, let's dig into that a little bit more. Kelly, 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.080 my question for you today is what is the most 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.440 intelligent animal you have ever eaten. 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:29.720 Oh, geez, probably pigs because they're super intelligent. I eat 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.800 meat less these days because ever since I got on 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.800 a farm and I've started interacting with like cows and 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:38.160 pigs and goats and sheep, I'm like, oh my gosh, 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:40.640 you all like you have personalities if some of you 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.240 are very smart. But I gotta be honest, I feel 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:48.280 way better about eating chicken because our chickens are so stupid, 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.239 and I don't feel too bad about eating chicken. 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:52.760 So anyway, what about you? 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:54.960 Where are you saying the dumb deserved to be eaten? 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:55.919 Is that what's happening here? 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.160 That is not what's happening here. You don't need to 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.000 extrapolate to the forbidden meal. But I do think chickens, 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:04.680 you know, they're delicious and silly. 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:05.440 What about you? 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:07.119 I'm not going to answer your question yet, I'm gonna 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.400 keep pushing you. Would you eat a champanzee or a 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.880 buonovo if somebody puts a chimp of skull in front 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:14.320 of you and flips it open and says, here's a 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.040 brain delicacy. Is Kelly saying no, thank you? Or are 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:17.639 you digging in? 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.320 Hm? I am saying no thank you. Yeah, why am 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:22.120 I saying no, thank you? 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:22.320 Oh? 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.640 So much introspection happening right now? Are there not loads 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:27.840 of bonobos in the wild. I don't know their status, so, 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:29.640 like one, I don't want to eat anything that's like 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.639 endangered or threatens or anything like that. But also, I 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.240 guess I do feel uncomfortable the closer they are to me. 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.800 And partly that's because, like, there's a lot of zonotic diseases, 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.200 so a lot of diseases that jump from wild animals 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:43.480 to humans, and I guess I would worry that the 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.760 more closely related you are to those organisms, the more 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:46.920 likely something is to jump. 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:49.000 But I wouldn't have that excuse if it was like. 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.360 A labraze chimpanzee. I still don't think i'd want to 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.600 eat it. Yeah, nope, I don't know that I have 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.240 a good logical reason, but my tummy is saying no. 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:02.720 Well, I'm an una bashed speciesist. I feel like being 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.800 human is different from being a puppy or a chicken 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.480 or a pig. And I used to feel like that 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:13.200 wasn't fair that you couldn't just say, hey, members of 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.440 the human species have certain rights that pigs and dogs 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.279 and whatever, don't. But these days I've come to accept 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:21.440 that that's just kind of how I feel, even if 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:24.800 it is wrong. And so, for example, I'm happy to 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.520 eat an intelligent pig, but I wouldn't eat a very 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.159 stupid person. Okay, you're cool with that. 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.120 Well, trying to figure out what is the logical framework behind? 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.160 Is it just anything that's not humans as good? 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:36.400 Like? 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:38.560 So you still haven't answered. Would you eat the chimpanzee 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:39.200 and the bonobo? 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:42.800 I probably would eat the champanzee and the bonobo. Yeah, exactly, 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:47.080 nice clean libraries. Chimpanzee, Yeah why not? I mean I 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.919 eat pigs, and so let's go all in. They're probably delicious. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:52.320 At least you're consistent. 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:54.800 I recognize I'm not very consistent, which is part of 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.320 why I shy away from meat all together, because I 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.919 feel like I haven't quite formulated the framework for what 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.000 I feel comfortable with and what I don't feel comfortable with. 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:05.400 Props to you for being consistent. 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:07.799 Well, I think it's interesting that a lot of people 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.479 probably haven't really thought through what they would eat and 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.160 what they wouldn't eat and why. I remember reading an 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:17.039 article about speciesism like twenty something years ago that actually 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.960 inspired me to become a vegetarian. Made me realize that 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:24.080 I was being unfair to really smart pigs because I 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.640 was giving them fewer rights then I was giving to, 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.600 you know, not smart humans that I would refuse to eat. 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:31.960 It made me feel like, hmm, maybe I just shouldn't 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.440 be eating any creatures at all. And you know that 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:36.799 lasted for like ten years. I was a militant vegetarian 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:38.400 for like ten years until I had a son and 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.200 he was very obviously a carnivore, and we lived in France, 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:43.960 where if you ask for vegetarian lunch they give you 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.760 like chicken or fish. So it didn't last that long. 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:49.800 And these days I just feel like, yes, there is 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:51.200 something special about being human. 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.520 For a while, I was some special kind of vegetarian 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:58.080 where I like mostly wouldn't eat meat, but if I 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.800 knew that the animal had been treated mainly its whole 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.600 life and was euthanized humanely, so it was a cow 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.880 that lived on this beautiful farm and had free range 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:07.279 and had buddies. 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:08.880 It could paint twice a week and do arts and 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:09.520 crafts and. 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:13.599 Stuff yoga class on Wednesdays. I would make exceptions for that. 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:15.080 And since I was in grad school at the time. 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.240 I couldn't afford to do that very often. So it 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.719 was like I'd have, you know, one meat dish a 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.279 month where I would go and pay for that. And Zach, 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.400 my husband, likes to laugh because the thing that ended 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:30.160 up breaking my like vegetarian streak was I just couldn't 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.560 stop craving Arby's beef and cheddars. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:37.520 Can't witches, which is just the lowest quality food ever. 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.640 But like my grand student heart just had to have one, 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:42.880 and that was the thing. Like I had one, and 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:44.760 then I was like, well, I've broken it, and then 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:46.400 for a while I just ate what I could afford, 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.360 which was Arby's because I was a grand student. Anyway, 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:51.799 I've always had a complicated relationship with meat, I guess. 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.840 And all of these behaviors are not rational, right, These 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:57.640 are people's emotional feelings about what's right and what's wrong. 0:06:57.880 --> 0:06:59.440 What you grew up with, you know, I grew up 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.560 not eating the shellfish at all, and so like I 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.480 think shellfish are gross, and you cannot catch me eating shrimp. 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.640 I'll eat a chimpanzee. But like shellfish, if it's icky, 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.520 it's like insects of the ocean. I'm as likely to 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:12.680 eat a cricket as I am to eat a shrimp. 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:14.480 I am more likely to eat a cricket than a shrimp. 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:16.640 I mean, so you kind of like deep poop the 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.520 shrimp before you eat them, Like, I know that's just gross. 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:25.480 Are gross? Exactly? And so on today's episode, I'm looking 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.400 forward to exploring that line, like who eats who? And 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:30.480 why do they do it? Why don't we eat our 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:32.080 neighbors kids or should we? 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.720 You know, I think law probably plays into why we 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:36.480 don't eat our children's kids. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:38.720 Why is the law that way? And should it be 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:39.160 that way? 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:39.320 Right? 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.040 Should we have a reform movement that says cannibalism is 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:43.000 actually okay? 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:45.440 You are asking all the big questions, Daniel. 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:48.280 This is not my field, and so I feel totally 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.440 comfortable just like asking the big dumb questions. 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:54.400 Well that's great, I love that, all right. 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:58.160 So, speaking of big dumb questions, I asked, how common 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.480 is cannibal and non human animals? And have you ever 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:02.280 seen it in nature? So I asked this to some 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.600 of my friends. And the big dumb thing that I 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:09.200 did was I accidentally mistyped my friend's number in because 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:11.200 like it was somebody I hadn't messaged for a while, 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.600 and I said some questions about cannibalism to like random 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.160 person who's probably very confused. 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.520 They never responded by like said the questions, and I 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:19.760 was like. 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.680 Oh gosh, I'm sorry, prom number, I'm a scientist. This 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.680 is for like a science thing, and uh, like I 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:27.080 got all awkward and I was like, I need to 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.640 just stop texting this person. Let the more texts I send, 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:30.600 the more crazy they think. 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:30.880 I am. 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.120 Well, at least you gave them a funny story that 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.280 they can tell at their next dinner party, which I 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.080 hope is not a cannibalistic one. And if you would 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.480 like to give answers to random questions, maybe about cannibalism, 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.200 maybe about particle physics for future episodes of the podcast, 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.920 please write to us to questions at Daniel and Kelly 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:47.560 dot org. 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:49.920 And now let's hear from Kelly's friends. 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:57.760 I have definitely heard of animals being cannibalistic. I remember 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.599 being in the fifth grade and I had gotten like 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.360 a tink of fish as a birthday peasant, and I 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.600 had one fish that attacked all the other fish and 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:09.480 ate them, and it. 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:13.200 Was a little traumatic I am really not sure. I 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:17.200 don't think that it's terribly common in the vertebrate world, 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:22.040 but maybe more common in some invertebrates for some reason. 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:26.440 I'm thinking among the insects possibly. I do think I 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:31.040 have seen, especially some insects cannibalizing other insects that I 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.800 believe would be the same species. 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:37.600 I think it is pretty widely you know, out there, 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:43.959 So I think like insects and even like some amphibians 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.360 and things like that do it because it's one of 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.600 those things where you want to eat no matter what 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.360 and survive. I've also heard about bears, so bears will 0:09:54.360 --> 0:10:01.160 do it to other young cubs from from breeding mothers 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.480 because that will then induce them into like a breeding 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.560 cycle so that they can then become the father, et cetera 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:09.200 and pass on their genes. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.000 I think this is probably pretty common in the animal kingdom, 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:20.200 but I mostly associated with parenting. My understanding is that 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.199 it in my brain anyway, is that it comes up 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:29.760 most often in situations where like a cat or a 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:36.280 rabbit or a dog like is really kind of distressed, 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:41.000 maybe like whatever. The dog equivalent of postpartum depression is, 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.000 I don't know, and they eat their offspring. 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:50.800 I would guess that cannibalism is kind of common among 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:56.960 fogs and snakes and insects, possibly fish. I do remember 0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.760 that I had signed these fighting fish that gave birth 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.400 to babies, and you had to quickly separate the babies 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.079 otherwise mom and dad would eat them. 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:05.800 Yeah. 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.120 I guess if the bud dies in a colony, they're 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:10.360 not just gonna. 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:11.160 Give it a burial. 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.400 They'll probably just repurpose all it's nutrients or something. I'm 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:16.000 just guessing. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:18.080 How do you feel about these answers, Kelly? 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.600 I thought that my friends gave great answers about cannibalism. 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.280 I also felt like they were really great sports. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:24.960 One of the. 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.640 People, like, I texted in the question and they texted back, 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.640 I didn't know what to expect, but this is so 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:31.880 totally on brand for you. 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:34.280 I was like, what does that mean? 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.840 But then also, yes, you're right, totally on brand. So no, 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:39.719 I thought they were great. It seems like there's this 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:43.200 like hypothesis building based on the answers that invertebrates maybe 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.560 do cannibalism more than vertebrates, because I thought that was 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.120 like a pretty common theme. I don't actually know if 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:51.079 like insects are more likely to eat each other than 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.400 fish or frogs. I've seen lots of fish eating the 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:56.600 same species. But yeah, I thought there were great answers. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:58.360 What did you think? And how are you going to 0:11:58.400 --> 0:11:59.480 try to connect it to humans? 0:11:59.480 --> 0:11:59.920 This time? 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.800 I thought it was interesting how widespread the answers were. 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.720 Some people thought it almost never happens, and some people 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.520 think it's pretty common. I'm pretty curious to know how 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.720 often does this happen out there in the animal kingdom? 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:18.000 Is just humans that awkwardly joke about cannibalism on podcasts? 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.640 Or is that also something that happens in the fish world. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:28.880 Let's learn more about the forbidden meal on today's show, 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.640 We Have Folk Are Rudolph. He's a full professor of 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.280 ecology and evolutionary biology at RICE. He's editor in chief 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.960 at The American Naturalist, which in my field, that is 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:42.720 a huge stinking deal. He is self diagnosed with scientific 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.120 add He studies stuff like a penology, which is like 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.520 the timing of when stuff happens in nature, like when 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.800 are the flowers blooming, when are the tadpoles turning into frogs? 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:53.040 And how does that change over time? 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.920 He also studies like temporal dynamics, you know how that 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.679 stuff is changing across the United States, for example, and 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:00.920 climate change. But we're not talking about any of that 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.000 today because a few years ago he was studying cannibalism 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.400 and I've never forgotten how awesome that is. So we're 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:13.400 going to talk to him today about cannibalism. 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.680 So what got you into cannibalism. 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:19.640 And what do your parents think about that? 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.080 So I got interested in doing grad school. I was 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:25.120 looking for a thesis topic, and I did some reading. 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.720 I was generally interested like in the role of size 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.679 and like mediating interactions, and at some point it came 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.920 across some work in cannibalism and fish, and they were 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:39.120 really curious about kind of like the role of cannibalism 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.599 and regulating the populations. And then this had bigger consequences 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.400 for the entire ecosystem because this was like a top 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.040 predator and they got this interesting dynamics that were all 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.040 driven by cannibalism, and so like look more into it 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.400 and realize that there is not much known about cannibalism, 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.000 especially ecological consequences of it, and most have been tweeted 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.680 this kind of like weird thing that happens, but we 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.920 don't want to talk about it kind of like, but 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.319 it was really interesting to me, and so like I focused, 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.199 I wanted to know more about the ecology of it, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:10.560 kind of. 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:11.320 Like what's driving it. 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:13.680 We've now been looking more into like the evolution of 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.640 it as well, so it's been more like a slow 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:17.680 organic process. 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.520 So as a parasitologist, people always want to tell me 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.640 about the time they thought they were infected by a parasite. 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:24.840 Sometimes they want to show me photos of their feces. 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.800 As someone who studies cannibalism, do people try to tell 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.480 you stories about like, oh, my fish, ate my other fish? 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.000 Have you acquired many weird stories? 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.560 If I talk about my research, then you should people 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.040 get stuck on the cannibalism stuff because the most interesting 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:39.520 dinner conversation topic. 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.240 People wanted to talk about cannibalism over dinner. 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:48.640 Yeah, but it's like once we start publishing some more 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:50.240 and then especially and then we're going to talk about 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.760 later this stuff we did on the interaction between comes 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.120 from disease. I started getting a lot of you know, 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.880 like media stuff from like in radio shows and other 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:04.320 podcasts thing, and nine of those all had to do 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.480 with some weird human anecdote thing, which is like nothing 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.320 I do at all or right, but it's like so 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:12.840 I got a little frustrating. They're like, okays, like this 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.600 is not really what I do, but sure, yeah. 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:20.240 Well, how widespread is any knowledge of cannibalism, Like do 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.560 people have mostly a misunderstanding of what cannibalism is and 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:25.880 how it works? Or is the concept in the minds 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:27.520 of the general public pretty much accurate. 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.920 I would say there's a pretty big misconception overall. And 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.600 most of that so really comes from like our take 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.760 on like entreprenmdvising the whole thing when we think about 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.720 cannibalism it so it goes back to the idea that 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.800 this is something that only happens on the extreme weird circumstances. 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:46.640 It's not normal. 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.160 I think that's kind of like how most people think, like, oh, 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.560 there's this week antidote about the shark doing some freaky thing, 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:54.160 and like. 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:55.120 That's not normal. 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.120 And in reality, and when cannibalism is completely normal, it's 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:04.000 super widespread. It's everywhere in animal kingdom, And there's why 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.760 do we take the morals away from it? It makes 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.520 sense because it's some normal ecological interactions just to predator 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:12.360 prey interactions. 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.040 This happens to be like the same species. 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:15.960 And how widespread is it? 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:17.880 So I tell a story at the beginning of the 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.600 episode where my small mouth bass we're eating each other 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.640 during my master's project, and I was like totally surprised 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:25.760 by you know, where all the fish and my experiment 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:26.240 were going. 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:28.040 What other organisms do it? 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.360 I mean, I would say, like, if it's predatory, there's 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.840 really high chance it's cannibalistic. So most species and other 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.280 predators are probably to some extent cannibalistic, and then there's 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.800 some variation and nuanced. But I would say for me 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.800 that it's like the default. There are exceptions to that 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.320 that are not cannibalistic, and there various reasons for that. 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.000 But I'd say the default is kind of like predatory. 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.640 It's cannibalistic, and there are a bunch of other species 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.840 that are not even predatory. There's still cannibalistic, right because 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.640 it can help, but like nutrient deficiencies, the components or 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:04.560 just removing competitors from the field, right, So it's all 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:08.119 over the place. It's probably one of the most underreported 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.080 interactions in the animal kingdom. 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.800 I think a lot of people might wonder why cannibalism 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.160 is so widespread. I think like a naive understanding of evolution, 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:19.719 like the one that I have, for example, would suggest 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.320 that it might be detrimental to the population as a whole. Right, 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.399 But is it as simple as yeah, but it helps 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.640 you and your genes or all you care about pretty much. 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.440 Yeah, it's from a in real perspective, it's just another 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.920 way of getting resources, and you're not doing it to 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.399 the benefit of the population. You're just trying to increase 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.879 your own personal fitness. And in many scenarios that's a 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:43.800 good option. Right, So you can think of it, for instance, 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.000 if you're cannibalistic, you can remove competitors from the environment. 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:48.439 Right, that's like a direct goal. 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:50.439 Not only do you remove them from the environment, you 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:52.920 actually get energy from them on top of it. Right, 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.960 So it's a double wind situation and the costs are something. 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.960 Then that's like under which conditions is it not beneficial? 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.639 And then you come back on like inclusive fitness and 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.560 kind of like what does it do to your offspring 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.280 and what's the risk of eating those. 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:10.359 It's like Google acquiring other companies, right, competitors off the field. 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:12.480 Yeah, pretty much. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:14.359 All right, Well, then I have a question for you 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.320 about cannibalism that I'm pretty sure you've never gotten before. 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.040 Okay, So I've. 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:24.160 Heard the argument that on other planets, if life evolves, 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.160 it's very likely that there will be predators there because 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.360 beings will chomp on other beings because, as you say, 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.560 it's a rich source of nutrients. So then my question 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.360 to you is are you suggesting that aliens are very 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:36.600 likely also cannibals. 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:38.080 That's a pretty good chance. 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:42.520 Yeah, all right, and I think we have our spinoff 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.920 movie Alien Cannibals. We'll wait for the first drafter the 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:47.119 script from you looking forward to that. 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.240 It's the question I heard before. 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.520 So Daniel. 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.280 And I got the work in Aliens double bonus. 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.720 Okay, So is there a difference between cannibalism if you're 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.439 the one killing the conspecific you plan on eating, or 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:22.760 if you like come across it and it's dead, both 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.879 of those are cannibalism or does the definition of cannibalism 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.960 imply that you had to like kill the organism before 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:30.080 you eat it or is it all the same? 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:32.639