1 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. We have a vault episode for you here. 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: Today we're re airing my interview with Patricia Kaishian about 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: her book Forest Euphoria, The Abounding Queerness of Nature from 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: early April, which I realize is sooner than usual for 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: a Stuff to Blow Your Mind vault episode. But the 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: book is now available to purchase in all formats as 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: of May twenty seventh, So without further ado, let's dive 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: right in. 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 11 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. In today's episode, I'll be speaking with 13 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: Patricia Kaishian about her upcoming book, Forest Euphoria, The Abounding 14 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: Queerness of Nature, publishing next month and available for pre 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: order right now in all formats. You'll find a pre 16 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: order link in the episode description for this podcast episode, 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: or you can look it up at speaklangrou dot com 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: slash Forest hyphen Euphoria. So it's a fun chat. We 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: discussed queer ecology, some amazing examples from nature, and even 20 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: brief discussion of the TV show The Last Office. So 21 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: without further Ado. Let's jump right in. Thank you, Hi Patty, 22 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. 23 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me. 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: So the new book is Forest Euphoria, The Abounding Queerness 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: of Nature, a captivating text that meld scientific consideration of 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: ecology and biodiversity with personal experience and insight. Tell us 27 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: how did this project come together? 28 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, So I started writing this book a few years ago. 29 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 4: I have a degree in mycology. You have a PhD 30 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 4: in mycology the study of fungi, and I had recently 31 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 4: finished my doctorate. And I throughout the later stage of 32 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 4: my PhD, though, I started getting really interested in philosophy 33 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 4: of science and queer theory, and so I sort of 34 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 4: started to explore those things adjacent to my more formal 35 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 4: academic training in science, and I got really interested in 36 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 4: sort of how science functions, how we produce knowledge, how 37 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 4: we make sense of knowledge within the scientific system, and 38 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 4: how where the power of science lies, but also what 39 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 4: its shortcomings might be. And so I'm someone who would 40 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 4: say I'm very like science positive. I think science is 41 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 4: an amazing tool and a really powerful way of knowing, 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 4: but it also, you know, is a human endeavor and 43 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 4: as such pen be flawed and so I was sort 44 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 4: of interested in understanding what were the sort of limits 45 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 4: of science and how does science and culture interact. And 46 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 4: as in my collegeist, you know, I'm studying a group 47 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 4: of organisms that has historically been extremely maligned and neglected 48 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 4: by science and by popular culture and perception. And I 49 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 4: was really interested in the fact that even though scientists 50 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 4: obviously strive for objectivity, I could find all throughout the 51 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 4: science record around my coology sort of a unwillingness or 52 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 4: reluctance to see their biology as fully as one should, 53 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 4: Meaning we were sort of the history of science is 54 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 4: to sort of pigeonhole fungi as being organisms that are 55 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 4: just like dangerous or deadly or disgusting. And there was 56 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 4: actually a lack of objectivity and approaching this whole group 57 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 4: of organisms, and as it kind of created a vacuum 58 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 4: of knowledge. So I started to sort of be interested in, well, 59 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 4: how did that come to be? How is it that 60 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 4: a group of organisms could be treated so subjectively by scientists, 61 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,119 Speaker 4: and what does that mean for sort of our understanding 62 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 4: of them now? 63 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 3: And so as I. 64 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 4: Dug into that, I got really interested in sort of 65 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 4: the history of mycology. You know, this feeling of fear 66 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 4: and revulsion that a lot of people in particularly in 67 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 4: North America or Western Europe have towards fungi. And that 68 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 4: brought me into sort of the realm of queer theory 69 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 4: as well, which is, you know, the understanding of categories 70 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 4: usually relating to sex and gender, but sort of how 71 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 4: we make sense of what is quote unquote normal, what 72 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 4: is quote unquote deviant, And queer theory could sort of 73 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 4: was used as a lens for understanding this construction, these 74 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 4: binaries that we construct in society about what is good 75 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 4: or bad, or what is normal what's not normal. I 76 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 4: had started digging into that and was giving some talks 77 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 4: on the subject, and then an editor reached out to 78 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 4: me and asked, Hey, do you want to write a 79 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 4: book about queer theory and biodiversity? And I was like, yes, absolutely, 80 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 4: So I started doing that in I believe that was 81 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 4: the spring of twenty twenty two awesome. 82 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: So, speaking of queerness in the broader sense, how do 83 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: we currently define queer and queerness at a human level, 84 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: Because I feel like it's easy, it's easy to sort 85 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: of culturally absorb the term without really understanding its history. 86 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: And I guess you might say evolved, meaning sure. 87 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 4: So I use queerness sort of as an umbrella term 88 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 4: for life and behavior and ways of being that are 89 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 4: outside of the heteronormativity, but also as a way of 90 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 4: invoking kind of a notion of a shared collective struggle 91 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 4: towards liberation. So queer was, you know, used to be 92 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 4: an insult or a pejorative term, and then people in 93 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 4: that community took that back and sort of proudly self 94 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 4: identified as particularly around the height of the AIDS crisis 95 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 4: epidemic in the United States, and used that sort of 96 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 4: queerness as a rallying cry to bring people from otherwise 97 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 4: sort of disparate LGBTQ groups and like bind them together 98 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 4: and come together for the shared purpose of, you know, 99 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 4: addressing the AIDS crisis and other injustices related to homosexuality 100 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 4: and so forth. So I actually think that queerness is 101 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 4: a term that is not just about I think you 102 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 4: can be gay and not really embody queerness. And by 103 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 4: that I mean I think that for me, the use 104 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 4: of queer is always sort of tied to collective liberation 105 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 4: and so understanding your role in the collective and sort 106 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 4: of how you relate to systems of power, and I'm 107 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 4: you know, I'm sure other people have different definitions, and 108 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 4: that's one of the beauty of things that's beautiful about 109 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 4: being queer is that, you know, sometimes you don't have 110 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 4: to commit to one singular definition. But for me, that's 111 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 4: how I sort of understand it, and I apply that 112 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 4: not just to the human world in terms of liberation, 113 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 4: but also liberation of non human species and life systems 114 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 4: on earth. 115 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: All right, And that brings us to queer ecology. How 116 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: do we bring this definition of queer and queerness into 117 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: the ecological world and what's the history of queer ecology? 118 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 4: So queer ecology is sort of a you know, an 119 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 4: emerging field. I would say it's been there's been some 120 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 4: writings around it for the past decade or so, but 121 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 4: it's starting to take more shape. I think it's becoming 122 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 4: something that people are sinking their teeth into a bit 123 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 4: more in the last few years. There are many dimensions 124 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 4: to it. Up front, the most clear and concise like 125 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 4: element of queer ecology is the fact that many organisms 126 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 4: are simply not binary or sort of heteronormative and their 127 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 4: reproductive strategies. So throughout the animal kingdom, there's all sorts 128 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 4: of same sex mating behaviors, partnerships. There are organisms that 129 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 4: have multiple sex is that sometimes in the same individual 130 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 4: or over a singular life span. In the fungal world, 131 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 4: we have all sorts of reproductive strategies that are non binary. 132 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 4: So there's sometimes sometimes there are you know, quote unquote 133 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 4: male or female species, but oftentimes there's multiple sexes or 134 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 4: mating types depending on the group, their entire lineages of 135 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 4: fungi that are just asexual. 136 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 3: For all. 137 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 4: We know quer ecologies interested in exploring the biological reproductive 138 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 4: strategies of different organisms and also the behaviors between organisms, 139 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 4: and sort of like bringing to the four research that 140 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 4: had been either neglected to be you know, conducted, or 141 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 4: suppressed or sort of just overlooked regarding these sort of non. 142 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 3: Non normal, you know, non. 143 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 4: Heteronormative reproductive strategies. So that you know, a lot, a 144 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 4: lot of the argument to shame queerness or same sex 145 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 4: behaviors or it has been rooted in the fact the 146 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 4: claim that it's not natural right to be gay, it's 147 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 4: not natural to be transgender, or something like this. But 148 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 4: we actually know that throughout all throughout the tree of life, 149 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 4: there are so many examples of these types of ways 150 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 4: of being. So if the claim is that it's not natural, 151 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 4: that's just not accurate. So part of it is just 152 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 4: sort of a corrective against that claim. Now, you know, 153 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 4: often the goalpost is shifted by those who are you know, 154 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 4: homophobic or whatnot, but that has been a long standing claim, 155 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 4: so queer ecology helps sort of make that clear. But 156 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 4: then going further than that, getting into the little bit 157 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 4: more of the theories and philosophies, it's also about understanding 158 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 4: these constructions of categories, So like, how do we like, 159 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 4: how do science make sense of the world? Are there 160 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 4: limitations to that worldview? Are there are ways in which 161 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 4: we've sort of blunted our understanding of nature because we've 162 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 4: been steeped in a particular cultural lens, so particularly Western 163 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 4: European philosophies. So one thing I talk about a lot 164 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 4: in my research and in my book is the kind 165 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 4: of notion of an individual. Right, So I'm a taxonomist, 166 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 4: I'm someone who names and describes new species of fungi, 167 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 4: So I definitely understand the utility of like a species 168 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 4: concept or you know, drawing the you know, approximate limits 169 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 4: of an individual. So we can kind of make sense 170 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 4: of it and communicate about it, but there's also sort 171 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 4: of like under I also understand that that's like a 172 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 4: tool and a way of making sense in certain contexts, 173 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 4: but sometimes to deep more deeply understand a really complex system, 174 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 4: we might need to let go of certain rigid boxes 175 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 4: that we've constructed, and so that can be a really 176 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 4: challenging thing for people steeped in Western philosophical thought, and 177 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 4: we really love the idea of an individual as a 178 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 4: unit as a structure. But for example, in fungi, we 179 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 4: see oftentimes that these organisms are not really adhering to 180 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 4: really clear lines of like what is this body versus 181 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 4: the other? Like what is this species versus the other? 182 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 4: And often fundi or forming really complex webs of interaction 183 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 4: living you know, basically living in symbiosis, you know, sometimes 184 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 4: cells with in larger bodies. And then it starts to 185 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 4: challenge your ability to really like draw those lines when 186 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 4: the more you sort of engage with a biological understanding 187 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 4: of these really complex beings. So in quer ecology we 188 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 4: sort of are like bringing that to light, like how 189 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 4: does how do we make sense of the world if 190 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 4: we kind of decompose some of the notions that we've 191 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 4: long kind of clung onto. And my goal with this 192 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 4: is always to do better science, right, So ultimately I'm 193 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 4: not trying to discard. 194 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 3: The scientific method. Again, I'm very positive towards science. 195 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 4: But it's about like pushing us beyond the limits of 196 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 4: current knowledge. Can we better understand the ecosystems around us, 197 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 4: like how fungi form complex partnerships or how you know, 198 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 4: desoil function. Can we can we push past some of 199 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 4: the limitations that we've imposed on our own scientific processes 200 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 4: by not examining our own biases. 201 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 3: Yeah. 202 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: I found it really interesting to think about because I 203 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: know for some listeners out there, there may be this 204 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: sort of maybe instinctual backlash against the idea of career ecology, 205 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: thinking that, well, okay, maybe this is like a human 206 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: cultural matter and it's being used to influence the shape 207 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,719 Speaker 1: of scientific undertaking. But it's really quite the opposite, Isn't 208 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: it more of an attempt to undo binary, anthropomorphic interpretations 209 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: of nature? 210 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. 211 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 4: I think that's a really good way of a succinct 212 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 4: way of putting it. You know, so often I hear 213 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 4: or like kind of detect a resistance to this. Yeah, 214 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 4: like to politicizing science or making yeah, like adding this 215 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 4: sort of like identity politics to science or something like this. 216 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 4: But really, like, actually, when you examine the scientific record, 217 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 4: you can see that it's already fraught with. 218 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: Those things, there's all. 219 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 4: And that's why I think the mycological example is really 220 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 4: powerful because so like even we have examples of like 221 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 4: Carl Linnaeus, one of the founders of modern taxonomy, describing 222 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 4: fungi as rostichi poparini, the poorest peasants of the vegetable class. Like, 223 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 4: that's an incredibly subjective way of looking at an organism, right, 224 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 4: calling it poor and a peasant and obviously filled with disdain. 225 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 3: So that's not objectivity. That's he thought they were weird. 226 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 4: He called them, you know, he categorized them as lower plants, 227 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 4: so that obviously this was prior to our Darwinian evolution knowledge. 228 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 4: So like, I'm not holding that against him, but at 229 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 4: the same time that is still the fact of the 230 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 4: matter is that a lot of scientists. 231 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: Were Christian Western European. 232 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 4: Men of high class, and those world views are present 233 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 4: in their writings and in the canon of science. So 234 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 4: I'm sort of look kind of treating this as like 235 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 4: a way a corrective to that history. How do we 236 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 4: go through that history and make sense of the what 237 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 4: we know now? Understanding that these people were like all 238 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 4: of us, you know, limited while we're all limited in 239 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 4: our capacity, and that's that's not a terrible thing, but 240 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 4: it is true. And so sometimes people think that if 241 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 4: you're kind of constantly thinking about sociology or your your 242 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 4: own identity, that you might be clouding your own objectivity. 243 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 4: But I think it kind of actually can function the 244 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 4: opposite way, that it actually can make you more conscious 245 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 4: of your flaws and what biases you might be replicating 246 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 4: because we all have them. Right, It's not about saying 247 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 4: someone's good or bad. It's just that we all are 248 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 4: people and can and can be limited. And so it's 249 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 4: also not really I think that much about your own identity. 250 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 4: I think that it's really about understanding how information moves, 251 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 4: how do we assign value, how to assign how does 252 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 4: power function to create meaning? And anyone is capable of 253 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 4: sort of like exploring that, right, that's not you don't 254 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 4: have to have a particular identity to be interested in 255 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 4: challenging that or like thinking through that critically. 256 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I feel like it's one of those worldviews 257 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: where like it's we're just in it and we don't 258 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: necessarily like see it. We're not necessarily aware of these 259 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: limitations unless we sort of step outside of it momentarily 260 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: at least, right, it's. 261 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 4: A good practice as a scientist, I think, to kind 262 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 4: of reflect on even if you think your discipline is really, 263 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 4: you know, not touched by human culture, I think it 264 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 4: can be, and I would say some disciplines are much 265 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 4: more in touch with that than others, but there's still, like, 266 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 4: I think it's a good reflection as a scientist. I 267 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 4: think it can make you a more ethical, more grounded, 268 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 4: and more effective scientist to at least be like considering 269 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 4: these how this might function in your own work. 270 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: Now, coming back to the book. Very early on in 271 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: the book, you mentioned the nineteen ninety six French documentary Microcosms, 272 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: which I think a lot of our listeners have probably 273 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: seen in spite of perhaps of that sort of infamous 274 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: American poster that featured the praying mantis with the sunglasses 275 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: rather out of keeping with the actual vibe of the film, 276 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: the vibe of which you discussed. 277 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 4: So I really love that film because it's so immersive 278 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 4: in this world of insects and and other arthropods, and 279 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 4: I think that those animals are so often treated with contempt, right, 280 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 4: so we similar to fungi. There's these perceptions around insects 281 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 4: and these you know, invertebrate animals that they're creepy, disgusting, they're. 282 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 3: Like unworthy of our care and love. 283 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 4: You know, we we don't have any like coordinated system 284 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 4: for ethics around insect right, It's all like, actually the 285 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 4: ethic is really that you can kill them without mercy. 286 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 4: And so I I just find but I find them 287 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 4: to be so incredibly well. They are not just I 288 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 4: don't not just me who finds them this way. They 289 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: are incredibly diverse. There there are you know, millions of 290 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 4: species of insects, and they are these it's a whole, 291 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 4: it's a universe unto itself, right, And so what I 292 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 4: like about microcosmos is that it really submerses you into 293 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 4: that world and you start to see that these things 294 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 4: are animals. Like I think a lot of people know technically, 295 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 4: and I'm sure most listeners to this podcast know that 296 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 4: like insects are animals, but you can still like something 297 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 4: about making the micro sort of macro you really see like, oh, 298 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 4: this thing has like all these ornaments, and it has 299 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 4: a behavior, and it has a family, and it has 300 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 4: these you know, and it has sex and like all 301 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 4: it is like an animal world. I think we just 302 00:17:55,560 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 4: reduce them to these very flat, kind of negative categories otherwise. 303 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 4: So I love that it kind of creates this drama 304 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 4: that you're like with the music and and you're sort 305 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 4: of in and then like these towering plants all around 306 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 4: you and you're kind of in this metropolis of this 307 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 4: other world. And I think it makes them feel like dynamic, 308 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 4: because they are dynamic. They're species that have complex lives 309 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 4: and probably feel all sorts of sensations that we've kind 310 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 4: of typically denied them, so like pleasure and maybe even 311 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 4: pain and fear, and we you know, we don't know 312 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 4: too much about insect neuroscience in terms of what sensations 313 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 4: they're capable of. But it kind of seems crazy to 314 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 4: me that we would just assume from the jump that 315 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 4: they're unfeeling entirely Like that doesn't make that doesn't really 316 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 4: make scientific sense to me, right, So, and then there's 317 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 4: also so there's other arthropods and and and then invertebrates. 318 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 4: So like, I really love the snail sex scene where 319 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 4: these to u snails are there is like a gradual 320 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 4: operatic situation where they are finding they find each other 321 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 4: in the in the moss, and then they are entwine 322 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 4: their bodies together and it's just and the opera crescendos 323 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 4: as it is happening, and it's just like, Wow, these 324 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 4: animals are really like experiencing pleasure, Like they're really like 325 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 4: in this thing together, and they're and also they're both 326 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 4: You're not sure what the sex is of either, because 327 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 4: they're they actually are both hermaphroditic. They both have both 328 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 4: you know, male and female reproductive organs in their bodies, 329 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 4: so there there is this queer, literal, reproductively queer element 330 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 4: to them as well. 331 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 3: So I just it's a great film. 332 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 4: If you haven't seen it, I definitely recommend just setting 333 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 4: aside a couple hours and immersing yourself into this micro world. 334 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. I had seen it years ago, and I noticed 335 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: that it's currently on Criterion Channel, so I pulled it 336 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: up during lunch the other day. Yeah, it's it's still gorgeous, 337 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: and this is something you touch on in the book as well. 338 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: It has almost no narration there's like a little opening, narrational, 339 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: little closing, but for the most part, like you're just 340 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: immersed in this visual world of the creatures studied here. 341 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really beautiful. 342 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: So in the book, you bring up many examples of 343 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: queerness in nature, again not exceptions to an imagined binary rule, 344 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: but expressions of that abounding queerness that you get to 345 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: in the title. What are some of your favorite additional 346 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: examples to bring up in discussing queer ecology. 347 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 3: I really am. 348 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 4: Obsessed with eels, and the specifically the American eel that 349 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 4: I talk about in the book. I think they there's 350 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 4: so much to their the they're very there. So they 351 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 4: have a very queer body, right, So they are organisms 352 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 4: that spend most of their life as intersex. 353 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 3: In zoology, we use the. 354 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 4: Word hermaphroditic, but I know that humans prefer intersex, so 355 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 4: I try I actually, I guess I think. 356 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 3: That's probably the better term to use. 357 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 4: So in the snail, sorry, the eel bodies are intersex 358 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 4: in that they both have both male or they have testes, 359 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 4: and they have ovaries for most of their life, and 360 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 4: so you can't you know, there there was a lot 361 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 4: of mystery around them in the early days of natural history, 362 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 4: trying to understand what, well, what are they, you know, 363 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 4: and so the a lot of scientists were determined that 364 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 4: they must be either male or female, and so that 365 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 4: sort of lens of trying to prove that they were 366 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 4: one or the other dominated investigations into their bodies in biology, 367 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 4: and one of those people researching eel sex was Sigmund Freud, 368 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 4: and I so I write a little bit about his 369 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 4: early days, before he became interested in psychology or before 370 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 4: he was studying it, was studying natural history, and he 371 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 4: he was someone who wanted to sort of understand what 372 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 4: the eel sex situation was, and spoke spent actually a 373 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 4: lot much of his time dissecting the bodies of eels 374 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 4: trying to find proof of like sort of one sex 375 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 4: or the other. And he kept he wanted to find specifically, 376 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 4: he didn't understand why, like where were all the males? 377 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 4: So I think it was easier to find ovarian tissue, 378 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 4: but it was harder to find testicular type tissues, and 379 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 4: so he dissected like hundreds of eels before finally finding 380 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 4: some evidence that. 381 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 3: There were males or male sex organs. 382 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 4: And he some he will think that this may have 383 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 4: been this sort of pursuit might have given rise to 384 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 4: some of his later concepts like castration, anxiety and stuff 385 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 4: like this, because he was maybe made anxious by the 386 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 4: fact that this was not actually something he could easily find. 387 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 4: But eels are just, on several levels, incredibly fascinating. And 388 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 4: one thing that also I grew really interested in was 389 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 4: the way that they migrate. So they are spawned, they 390 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,959 Speaker 4: are all of the American eels are born in the 391 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 4: Sargasso Sea, so kind of near the Bermuda triangle, and 392 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 4: for up until very recently, this exact location was unknown, 393 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 4: and their whole sort of sexual reproduction was not witnessed 394 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 4: or recorded by science. 395 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 3: And then the eels. 396 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 4: Migrate from the Bermuda, like from the Sargasso Sea all 397 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 4: the way up to the along the length of the 398 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 4: North American Eastern Sea board and enter into freshwater systems 399 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 4: through rivers that reach the ocean, and they swim upstream 400 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 4: and they can go pretty far. They can travel hundreds 401 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 4: of miles within the freshwater systems. And I got to 402 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 4: experience eels at when I was teaching at Bard College 403 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 4: in the Hudson Valley, so on the Hudson River and 404 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 4: there was an eel monitoring project because eels have their 405 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 4: populations have collapsed due to overfishing and pollution and habitat destruction. 406 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 4: So there's a monitoring project with Hudsonia and an environmental 407 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 4: org and we would I would take my students and 408 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 4: we'd volunteer to help them trap eels, document them, and 409 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 4: then release them into the freshwater systems. And so I 410 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 4: started learning about how eels do this migration. They make 411 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 4: this trip from the Sargasso Sea with just basically only 412 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 4: being about an inch long, and they're totally translu except 413 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 4: you can see through their bodies. You can see their 414 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 4: eyes and then their their spinal cords, and but they're 415 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 4: just this tiny little fish that like swims for it 416 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 4: can take them over a year to swim from where 417 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 4: they were born to these freshwater systems that the systems 418 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 4: that their parents came from. And so I was, like, 419 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 4: you know, started reading about how they are using magnetite, 420 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 4: which is a oxidized iron material that's in their set 421 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 4: like in and around their brains. 422 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 3: And this is something that other animals have as well. 423 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 4: It's best studied in fish like salmon, which also are, 424 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 4: you know, do these complex migratory routes. But it's magnetite 425 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 4: is present throughout the tree of life. Even humans have it, 426 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 4: but we're not sure exactly if its function in our bodies. 427 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 4: But what's amazing about magnetite is that it is in 428 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 4: the case of these complex animals, like multicellular animals, it's 429 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 4: probably it's believed to have been a bacterial origin, so 430 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 4: it's likely arose from an endosymbiotic event. So end of 431 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 4: symbiosis is a process by which, you know, one species 432 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 4: of a smaller size is engulfed by another larger species 433 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 4: and eventually, over time they become interdependent on one another 434 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 4: through you know, many generations, and so this is the 435 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 4: this is how many of our organelles came to be. 436 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 4: So mitochondria, for example, were used to be free living 437 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 4: bacteria that were absorbed by another cell and then instead 438 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 4: of it being maybe eaten or just being sort of 439 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 4: killed by that engulfing, it stayed ill live and then 440 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 4: persisted as a living cell within a larger cell. And eventually, 441 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 4: over many, many, many generations, they become you know, like 442 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 4: entangled with each other in physiologically and energetically, and so 443 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 4: this process is so I mean, it's just kind of 444 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 4: crazy to wrap your mind around it, stranger than fiction 445 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 4: in a lot of ways, Like what are the odds 446 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 4: of these types of you know, cellular events happening, and 447 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 4: how is it that such sort of randomness could then 448 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 4: give rise to such complexity. I mean, this is like 449 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,239 Speaker 4: the study of evolution, right, it's just absolutely crazy. I mean, 450 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 4: it's like it sometimes feels just absolutely absurd. But what 451 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 4: I kind of am bringing it back a little bit 452 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 4: to quer ecology in a moment, which is that for 453 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 4: most of a lot of scientific history, Western science was 454 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 4: pretty resistant to this idea of symbiosis or to interdependencies 455 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 4: or sort of that you know, the individual could really 456 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 4: be made up of many, you know, individuals, and we 457 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 4: are collectively a being that is not really discernible without 458 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 4: the presence of all these other micro organisms and such. 459 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 4: So the science there was a scientist, an evolutionary biologist, 460 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 4: Lynn Margolis, who was the person who's who brought end 461 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 4: of biotic theory too, like the tension of science, and 462 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 4: for many years she was dismissed as you know, being 463 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 4: kind of just like part partly on the basis of 464 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 4: her gender. But just also on the basis of the 465 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 4: fact that this just seems so crazy, like we are 466 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 4: how could endosymbiosis really be like the foundation of the 467 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 4: human body, like like the noble amazing, you know, a 468 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 4: complex person couldn't really could we really be just like 469 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 4: a bunch of bacteria and fungi in a in a flesh, 470 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: fleshy form. But over time, more and more evidence accumulated 471 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 4: in support of her hypotheses. And now that is understood 472 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 4: as as a like a you know, a fact of 473 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 4: evolutionary biology, and so that, but she was willing to 474 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 4: sort of challenge the paradigm and push outside of like 475 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 4: what is normal and what is accepted in the scientific 476 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 4: discipline and and at great personal you know, risk and 477 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 4: costs professionally. So I think that that part that story 478 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 4: of like how magnetite okay, okay, So then going back 479 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 4: to the magnetite, there these ancient bacteria that probably through 480 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 4: just a you know, random mutation, started accumulating magnetite in 481 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 4: their cells. And the magnetite is receptive to the magnetic 482 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 4: fields of the Earth, and so over time these what 483 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 4: was probably just like you know, a mutation of accumulation 484 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 4: of this of this material became beneficial to that organism. 485 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 4: They started to be able to sort of orient themselves 486 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 4: to the magn the magnetic fields of the Earth and 487 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 4: developed something of a magneto taxis, so being able to 488 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 4: move by ma magnetic fields, and so we have like 489 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 4: chemotaxis or phototaxis and maxomagneto taxis is another form of response, 490 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 4: you know, stimulation and response. 491 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 3: So the over time and. 492 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 4: We have there there are these basically accumulations of these 493 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 4: little packets of magnetite in a bacterial cell and they 494 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 4: form in a tiny like little chain, and that chain 495 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 4: became almost like a compass needle that could move in 496 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 4: response to the magnetic fields of the Earth, and that 497 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 4: some ancestor of that bacteria was probably what was absorbed 498 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 4: into another larger cell. That then is you know, deep 499 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 4: in the tree of life of animals, and a common 500 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 4: ancestor of most animals probably had absorbed some sort of 501 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 4: magneto tactic bacteria, and that's why we can find it 502 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 4: scattered across all the tree of life. And so some 503 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 4: animals have you know, evolved these magnetostomes, these more complex 504 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 4: structures within with in which magnetite is found, and they 505 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 4: are basically sensory organs that so, like in salmon, for example, 506 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 4: we know that there's the complex magnetostmes in and around 507 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 4: their little noses and faces, and they use that to 508 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 4: guide their migratory journeys from from you know, sea in 509 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 4: fresh water, and so we think have that as well, 510 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 4: and that's sort of how they're able to travel through 511 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 4: the ocean for weeks and weeks and weeks or oriented 512 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 4: towards this sort of ancestral water that was probably somehow 513 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 4: that imprinted into the magnetostomes that they're using. So this 514 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 4: is that was a very long story, but I think 515 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 4: both elements of the eobiology are are relevant. So there's 516 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 4: the queer ecological the queer biological fact of their bodies 517 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 4: being intersects for most of their life and then when 518 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 4: they are about to make their journey, so they migrate 519 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,479 Speaker 4: up to freshwater, live there for several decades, and then 520 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 4: when they are it's time to reproduce, they're sort of 521 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 4: signaled into preparing for a journey back to the Sargasso 522 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 4: c and at that point they replace all of their 523 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 4: digestive organs get sort of cannibalized and cellularly repurposed into 524 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 4: sexual reproductive organs, and that at that point typically they 525 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 4: become you know, they develop more fully ovariant tissue or 526 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 4: more fully testicular tissues, or they can retain both, and 527 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 4: then they make that journey back to the Sargasso ce 528 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 4: and they have a raucous I guess evening of sexual reproduction. 529 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 4: So that is super queer in a sort of like 530 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 4: in a direct reproductive sense. But then also this sort 531 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 4: of you know, the history of endosymbiosis as being a 532 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 4: kind of a rejected concept in the scientific establishment because 533 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 4: it showed that these you know, quote unquote higher level 534 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 4: organisms were the kind of random events of these lowly microbes, 535 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 4: and that kind of perspective is something that challenges like 536 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 4: the agency of more complex beings and the human. 537 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 3: Wow. 538 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely, there's another organism that you bring up. And I 539 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: have to admit this is an organism that has long 540 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: been one of my favorites, but at a like a 541 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: a zoo tourist level, like I've never researched them for 542 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: the podcast or anything, so I only really knew what 543 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: was out there already, like you know, going to zoos 544 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: and you know up there on the little sign and 545 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: so forth. But the castawary, Oh yeah, And granted there's 546 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: a lot about the castiwary to catch your eye and 547 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: to explain to a general audience, like their you know, 548 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: their their coloration, their their flightlessness, their their feet, the 549 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: formation on the top of their head. But I was 550 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: really taken by your discussion of how they fit into 551 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: queer ecology. Would you would you tell us a little 552 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: bit about this. 553 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, So castiwaries they're amazing birds. They're incredibly you know, 554 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 4: like they just are very much like, Okay, you understand 555 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 4: that they're related to how closely related they are to dinosaurs, 556 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 4: and so they're completely fascinating. But for in terms of 557 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 4: the like they're sort of queer structures. They for a 558 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 4: long time, it was really not discussed in any of 559 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 4: the literature on their basic biology, like how they were 560 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 4: reproducing and the fact that like some of the females 561 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 4: have thesees and some of the males have like inverted 562 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 4: uh basically like they instead of having an extroverted fallus, 563 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 4: they have inverted structures. 564 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 3: So they sort of have this like in what you know, 565 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 3: what we would consider the. 566 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 4: Opposite and you know, most people would consider the opposite 567 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 4: type structure. 568 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 3: Representing you know, on the male or female. 569 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 4: And so for a long time, people who the people 570 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 4: like indigenous to this area where castwerries are found, would 571 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 4: involve cassowaries in a lot of their cosmologies and iconographies. 572 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 4: And specifically we're aware that they had these you know, 573 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 4: queer reproductive organs, organs that were not binary organs that 574 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 4: defied sort of expectations around gender or sex, and they 575 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 4: incorporated that into some into ritual and so forth. So 576 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 4: this was known to the people who lived amongst them 577 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 4: for thousands of years that they actually have really sort 578 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 4: of these these structures. But in the Western se scientific 579 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 4: descriptions of these birds there were there was really no 580 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 4: mention of this fact. And and so actually I learned 581 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 4: about this through reading Biological Exuberance by Bruce Begamial I 582 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 4: believe is the pronunciation of his last name, which is 583 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 4: a wonderful compendium, very textbook like compendium of examples of 584 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 4: queerness in nature. And I found that it's a wonderful resource. 585 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 4: It's and it does get a little bit into sort 586 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 4: of the like reasons why certain studies were maybe not 587 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 4: taken seriously or suppressed or ignored, and so He notes that, 588 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 4: you know, these birds were known for a while to 589 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 4: be like this, but you could not find record of 590 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 4: that in in like publications, and he believes it's because 591 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 4: there was sort of shame and anxiety around just simply 592 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 4: reporting evidence of queerness or homosexuality or of you know, 593 00:35:54,560 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 4: sort of gender sex nonconformity in the scientific literature. So 594 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 4: it's it's just an it's an interesting example of the 595 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,439 Speaker 4: fact that like, so going back to the earlier part 596 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 4: of our conversation where we can have or we talk 597 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 4: about you know, it's not actually we're not actually being 598 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 4: political when we pull these things out. We're actually exposing 599 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 4: the fact that there were biases that clouded the objectivity 600 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 4: in science, and it's important to acknowledge those and sort 601 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 4: of pull that subjectivity out and actually just look at 602 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 4: these things very factually. So it's just a good example 603 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 4: of like what you what happens when you're just afraid 604 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 4: to make waves in science, or you're or you're just not. 605 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 3: Looking correctly, so you might have maybe maybe you you know. 606 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 4: So he has other examples in the book too, where 607 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 4: scientists would talk about, you know, seeing something and just 608 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 4: really not believing them their own observations because it was 609 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 4: contradictory to heteronormativity. It's like, or they would come up 610 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 4: with very non parsimonious explanations as to why they were 611 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 4: seeing what they were seeing. Oh, this these two you 612 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 4: know birds are have a same sex partnership, but you 613 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 4: know they're probably just confused or something like that, right, 614 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 4: and so making these sort of like reaching for explanations 615 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 4: that that are not really evidence based but are just 616 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 4: sort of like would would kind of explain away the 617 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 4: fact that you're constantly seeing same sex behaviors in that species. 618 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 4: So the same with the cassowaries. This was the case 619 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,760 Speaker 4: as well that they were just like not either not report. 620 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 4: We can't be sure exactly why, but it seems as 621 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 4: if they were either not reporting what they were seeing 622 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 4: or they didn't believe their own examinations of these birds. 623 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 4: They were like, maybe I'm just not getting it, but 624 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 4: maybe it was just that they're not conforming to our 625 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 4: notions of what sexual structures should look like in males 626 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 4: or females. 627 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: It's such a fascinating way to sort of turn the 628 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: tables on anthromomorphism and sort of see it as I guess, 629 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, on one hand, we have to acknowledge that 630 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: anthromomorphism helps us in some cases care more about animals. 631 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: You know, we see ourselves reflected in them, But then 632 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: it can stand in the way of fully understanding what 633 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: they are and how they operate, because even at a 634 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: subliminal level, like we're seeing ourselves in them and seeing 635 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: in them as models of humans. 636 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 637 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 4: I think that is a really important point, because I 638 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 4: think anthropomorphism can be a good tool, and it can 639 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 4: stand in the way, and it kind of is case dependent. 640 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 4: And it's also so it sort of requires you to 641 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 4: be constantly reflexive on like if I like withhold all 642 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 4: of the complexity that I know is found in the 643 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 4: human species from another species, am I learning more about it? 644 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 4: Or am I making it? 645 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 3: Like? 646 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 4: Am I actually reducing my understanding of it? And so 647 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 4: that kind of negotiation is something that I try to 648 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 4: engage with regularly. It's like, so, for example, going back 649 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,959 Speaker 4: to the insects, if I assume nothing like no human 650 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,760 Speaker 4: qualities can be mapped onto insects, then I might assume 651 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 4: that they're incapable of experiencing pleasure or pain, or that 652 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 4: they don't have like complex social realities and then I 653 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 4: might actually not really understand insects, but you can take it. Then, 654 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 4: as you're saying, you can also for the castworries. If 655 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 4: we assume like a male looks like this and a 656 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 4: female looks like this, then you know you're because of 657 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 4: what we think is normal for people, then we are 658 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 4: also reducing our. 659 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 3: Understanding of these organisms. 660 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 4: So it kind of is this constant like negotiation and 661 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 4: toggle between can can anthropomorphism actually enrich our scientific understanding 662 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 4: or is in this moment is it restricting us? And 663 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,040 Speaker 4: so there isn't like a one answer. It's sort of 664 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 4: a constant question. But I try my sort of inclination 665 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 4: and this is just sort of my style not to 666 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 4: be prescriptive, is to sort of assume human like qualities 667 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 4: and then scientifically assess what you know. 668 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 3: Is that accurate? And so I'd rather. 669 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 4: Over project you know, feeling and dynamicism and complexity and 670 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 4: then maybe have you with evidence take that away or 671 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 4: under renegotiate that as opposed to assuming being that you're 672 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 4: this inert, unfeeling species and you have nothing, you know, 673 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 4: you're just you know, like a collection of molecules and 674 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 4: there's no sort of vitalism there, and so that's kind 675 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,280 Speaker 4: of that's if I had to pick one. I actually 676 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 4: think anthropomorphism is likely to enrich our understanding, but caveats abound. 677 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: Now coming back to the realm of mycology and where 678 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:52,399 Speaker 1: it intersects with human culture and understanding, I wonder what 679 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,760 Speaker 1: your thoughts are on this. I know that, like in general, 680 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 1: writers have often touched on different cultures being micophilic or microphobic, 681 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: like on the whole, seeing like the realm of mushrooms 682 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,359 Speaker 1: and fun guys being dangerous or beneficial and not being 683 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: like wrapped up in their culture. And this of course 684 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: gets into what you were talking about earlier, about the 685 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: about certain despised species or forms of life within given cultures. 686 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: And I was just wondering, like, do you see an 687 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 1: overlap between traditional cultures that are more micophilic and ones 688 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: that are traditionally like less defined by rigid binary definitions 689 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: of sexuality and gender. 690 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 3: Hmm, that's a really good question. 691 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 4: I think in general, yes, I would say that as 692 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 4: I'm not you know, and I'm not an anthropologist or 693 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,240 Speaker 4: a sociologist, but you know, so as a mycologist trying 694 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 4: to sort of explore this topic. I you know, I 695 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 4: don't I can't speak super confidently for other cultures, but 696 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 4: what I can say is that a lot of the 697 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 4: history of homophobia and the history of sort of the 698 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 4: way that the patriarchy functions in Western European and Euramerican 699 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,359 Speaker 4: culture had you know, that's something that has been exported 700 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 4: around the world through colonialism and other you know, there 701 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 4: have been societies all over the world that have had, 702 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 4: you know, have sought to have conformity with gender and 703 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 4: with you know, and have been patriarchal and stuff. But 704 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,839 Speaker 4: the type the sort of manifestation that we are now 705 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,720 Speaker 4: all pretty familiar with originated in you know, Western European 706 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 4: and euro American thought, and then what has been imposed 707 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 4: pretty forcefully around the world. So I would say that 708 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 4: in general, there's a trend that societies that had less 709 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 4: rigid notions of gender or still do have also had 710 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 4: under like cosmological understandings of the earth as being you know, 711 00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 4: with as they're being like deep interdependence between species, and 712 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 4: are generally less hierarchical even in their understanding of species 713 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 4: not that are non human, you know, so much of 714 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 4: the the binary understanding of like humans and nature that 715 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,360 Speaker 4: is also like a Western you know, European origin, the 716 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 4: exact manifestation of it in you know that we're now 717 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:21,879 Speaker 4: familiar with. 718 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 3: You know, there's like there's us and them. 719 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 4: There are these two categories, there's human and nature, and 720 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 4: that you know, humans are placed atop this hierarchy. 721 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 3: We were, you know, we were the chosen species. 722 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,600 Speaker 4: We are divine, and we are the most complex and 723 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,959 Speaker 4: the most intelligent and most rational, and everything else is. 724 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,760 Speaker 3: Just sort of beneath us to varying degrees. 725 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,399 Speaker 4: And in Western European thought that the things that were 726 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 4: the lowest on this sort of pyramid would have been 727 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 4: fungi and invertebrates, insects and things like this. So that 728 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 4: hierarchy is really foundational to European and Western European thought. 729 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,239 Speaker 4: So that and that's so it is like some I 730 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 4: guess I feel most confident speaking about this society because 731 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 4: I'm someone who grew up in it. I'm part Irish 732 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 4: Irish and part Armenian, and I grew up in the 733 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 4: United States, So I feel like most you know, I'm 734 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:24,839 Speaker 4: most able to comment on how that functions. Now, there 735 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,880 Speaker 4: are other societies you know, around the world that including 736 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 4: Eastern European, places in Mexico, places in West Africa, Japan 737 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 4: where mushrooms are not considered, you know, not as strongly 738 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 4: associated with anything negative, and have a long history of 739 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 4: being celebrated and integrated into culture and and historically these 740 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 4: places also had had less rigid understandings of gender. But now, 741 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,959 Speaker 4: of course it's hard to sort of draw that line 742 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 4: because of the impact of colonialism. So I'd say that 743 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 4: there is a releasetionship. And I'm always interested in hearing 744 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,839 Speaker 4: from people who grew up steeped in other cultures about 745 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 4: this specific topic, because there isn't a lot written about it. 746 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,839 Speaker 4: So this is sort of just what I've been able 747 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,479 Speaker 4: to kind of piece together over time, again not being 748 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 4: a sociologist, but there is a relationship between sort of 749 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 4: how does a culture respond to the unknown. So in general, 750 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 4: there's like a feeling that what is unknown induces sort 751 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 4: of anxiety and fear versus the unknown inducing something sort 752 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 4: of a feeling of revelation or divinity or you know, 753 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,759 Speaker 4: sort of magic. And I think in our culture there 754 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 4: is a association with wanting to control the unknown, to 755 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,319 Speaker 4: be unknown as to be a threat, and that's subversive 756 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 4: and so fungi kind of are these organisms, and same 757 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 4: with insects in particular. They both are groups of organisms 758 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 4: that really subvert the desire to dominate because they're, like, 759 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,840 Speaker 4: you know, difficult to predict. They can they move in 760 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 4: ways that sort of are they can be ephemeral, they 761 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 4: can amass, they can pop up overnight. Right, And this 762 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 4: all of this sort of transitory, ephemeral, difficult to predict 763 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 4: biology makes them sort of induces a feeling of fear, 764 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,800 Speaker 4: and I think that that is also there's a parallel 765 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 4: there to how people respond to people who do not 766 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 4: conform not just within matters of sex and gender, but 767 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,879 Speaker 4: also in terms of ability, in terms of race. Right, 768 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,799 Speaker 4: So there's also this feeling of like, if you're not 769 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 4: what I expect, I will fear you because I can't 770 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:37,319 Speaker 4: I don't quite know how to control you, right, And 771 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,799 Speaker 4: control is often executed first by putting someone in a box. Right, 772 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,719 Speaker 4: you are either this or that. I need to make 773 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,720 Speaker 4: sense of you so I know what to expect. Instead 774 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 4: of Wow, I don't know what to make of you, 775 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,919 Speaker 4: how interesting, how beautiful, it's it's like, wow, I don't 776 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,879 Speaker 4: know what to make of you. I'm now oppositional to you, right, 777 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,879 Speaker 4: So that sort of response is something also that's very 778 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,680 Speaker 4: like steeped into our culture. 779 00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 1: Now, speaking of fun, guy, can you tell us a 780 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,239 Speaker 1: little bit about labouls? This This is not a This 781 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: is not something I was familiar with before. 782 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 4: Sure, they're not a well studied group of fungi, so 783 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 4: I'm one of only a handful of people in the 784 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 4: world who study this entire order of fungi. The Laboulbinili's 785 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,760 Speaker 4: kind of a mouthful. We call them labulls for short, 786 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 4: so that's a little easier. And they are a very 787 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,239 Speaker 4: diverse lineage of fungi that live and grow on insects. 788 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 4: People are probably much more familiar with another group of 789 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 4: fungi that live and grow on insects, the cordyceps or 790 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 4: the zombie fungi, but these are in the same phylum, 791 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,480 Speaker 4: but completely different orders and classes. 792 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 3: So labulls are they? Some of them we believe to 793 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 3: be parasitic. 794 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,879 Speaker 4: We believe they take nutrients from the insect host at 795 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,799 Speaker 4: the insects expense, but others seem to be maybe more commensal, 796 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 4: Like we haven't been able to quantify any sort of 797 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 4: damage they're doing to the host. And the host seems 798 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 4: kind of able to just go about its life as normal. 799 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 4: But in any case, they're they're really interesting fungi, if 800 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 4: you can believe it. 801 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 3: There's tens of thousands of species of. 802 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 4: This order, which just is, you know, the biodiversity is 803 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 4: just staggering, right, So a group of funge i've never 804 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,920 Speaker 4: heard of living their lives and insects, and there's just 805 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 4: tens of thousands of species of them, and they're really small. 806 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,839 Speaker 4: They sometimes can be sort of detected with the naked eye, 807 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 4: but usually you need at least a hand lens. But 808 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 4: and then, but the most common way to find them 809 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 4: is looking at insects under a dissecting microscope, and they 810 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 4: grow outward from the exterior of the insect. They're multicellular, 811 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 4: they're really flexible and durable. They're not like ephemeral, so 812 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 4: once they grow there, they you know, are there until 813 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 4: they die. Essentially, they're not like coming up and out 814 00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:01,160 Speaker 4: of the insect body. The spore basically lands on the 815 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,800 Speaker 4: exterior of the insect and then some minute penetrative cells 816 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,239 Speaker 4: germinate from that and enter just like shallowly into the 817 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 4: insect body and form kind of like an anchor, and 818 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 4: then from that, you know, a few dozen cells will 819 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:23,280 Speaker 4: form in a definitive structure, so meaning they always they're 820 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,280 Speaker 4: not amorphous. They have a pretty defined cellular growth pattern, 821 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,600 Speaker 4: and so when we do taxonomy on these fungi we 822 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 4: are looking at more Our morphological descriptions involve draw you know, 823 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:40,520 Speaker 4: understanding the exact cell like shape, size, and arrangement, and 824 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 4: this is highly variable. There are like really thousands of 825 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,920 Speaker 4: ways these fungi can present itself, but it's pretty fixed 826 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,799 Speaker 4: within a species and even within a genus there's like 827 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 4: very common body plans, and so we also would use 828 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:59,439 Speaker 4: genetic DNA sequencing to do the taxonomic work on these 829 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,719 Speaker 4: funge But they're just really I mean, they're What I 830 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 4: love about them is that they are so quietly existing 831 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 4: in this tremendous diversity. They're the most diverse lineage of 832 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:13,800 Speaker 4: insect associated fungi. 833 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 3: So you have, you know, the incredible diversity of the insect. 834 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 4: World, and then on that you have this other whole 835 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,239 Speaker 4: realm of species that are you know, have evolved and 836 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,239 Speaker 4: are living and dying. And I'm pretty much unbeknownst to 837 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 4: you know, any witnesses, And to me, that's just a 838 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:30,960 Speaker 4: very like. That's one of the things I love about 839 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,680 Speaker 4: studying biodiversity, and of these fungi in particular. It's just 840 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 4: that they they are really kind of uninterested to project 841 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:40,680 Speaker 4: at anthropomorphically on them. 842 00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,359 Speaker 3: They're just you know, they're here whether or not. 843 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 4: People are and this, like and this, and it kind 844 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,560 Speaker 4: of really reminds you of It makes me think as 845 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,000 Speaker 4: a person, like, while the world like is so dynamic 846 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 4: and it has was here before me and will be 847 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 4: here after me, and there's all these processes going on 848 00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,240 Speaker 4: that really are kind of be apart from the the 849 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,440 Speaker 4: like my social perception, you know, and I just think 850 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,200 Speaker 4: that can be kind of calming and meditative. But I 851 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 4: really like working with them because I get to also 852 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 4: work with insects, so it brings me into contact with 853 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 4: multiple kingdoms of life in this really intimate way. I 854 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,759 Speaker 4: love doing microscopy. I love being like kind of immersed 855 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,320 Speaker 4: in the micro world. So going back to the microcosmos, 856 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,759 Speaker 4: I get to, you know, getting to stare at the 857 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,120 Speaker 4: the an insect under the microscope a dissecting scope is 858 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 4: so fun. You really see like all of its elaborate 859 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,120 Speaker 4: evolutionary you know, all the appendages and hairs and colors, 860 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,760 Speaker 4: and and it's it's you can it makes you feel 861 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 4: like in touch with these this whole other realm. And 862 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,120 Speaker 4: then what's really exciting about being a micologist is that 863 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:52,120 Speaker 4: there are because we've only described you know, around we 864 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,320 Speaker 4: estimate three to five percent of fungal species diversity, there's 865 00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:01,120 Speaker 4: no shortage of new species descriptions that can be just authored. 866 00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 4: So I get to you know, been able to name 867 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,200 Speaker 4: and describe about a dozen species, new species to science, 868 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,920 Speaker 4: all within this group the level of inniles. So that's 869 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,960 Speaker 4: a fun thing too, is like you can say, you 870 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 4: can say pretty definitively that you know, a person has 871 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,239 Speaker 4: not looked upon this fungus before because a no one 872 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 4: is looking for them, and also because you need a 873 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,120 Speaker 4: microscope to see it, so it's just not likely that 874 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,000 Speaker 4: someone would have just bumped into it, you know, there there. 875 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:27,959 Speaker 4: You have to be looking for them to find them. 876 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,279 Speaker 4: So it's just kind of a fun opportunity for me 877 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 4: to like be contributing taxonomically. And then also one thing 878 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,880 Speaker 4: that I like about being a taxonomist is that the 879 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:45,440 Speaker 4: practice of naming and you know, taxonomy does have a 880 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 4: complicated history in terms of ethics, and you know, all 881 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,239 Speaker 4: of these forces that we've been talking about, you know, 882 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:56,440 Speaker 4: sort of around colonialism and power and who gets to, 883 00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,080 Speaker 4: you know, put a name on something and in what language. 884 00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,279 Speaker 4: So one thing I like to think about is taxonomy 885 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:08,239 Speaker 4: as a practice of honoring, So not stamping your authority 886 00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,360 Speaker 4: on it, as like an act of I guess possession, 887 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,160 Speaker 4: but being like, okay, here, this is a species that 888 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 4: I share the planet with. This is a species who's 889 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,759 Speaker 4: been on this multi billion year journey like every other 890 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,120 Speaker 4: species here, And how can we sort of honor its diversity, 891 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 4: regardless of its role in doesn't matter if this fungus 892 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,320 Speaker 4: is of utility. 893 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,319 Speaker 3: To me or to people like it. It's here, it exists. 894 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,439 Speaker 4: It is complex and dynamic and worthy of a name. 895 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,120 Speaker 4: So I like to think of naming as a system 896 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,800 Speaker 4: of like as a practice of honoring other the existence 897 00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 4: of and the sort of what I like to think 898 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:47,799 Speaker 4: of as sort of like the agency and almost like 899 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,759 Speaker 4: personhood of another being. Right to name is to sort 900 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:56,359 Speaker 4: of acknowledge that complexity. It's also an opportunity to sort 901 00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 4: of embody some of the practices that I think have 902 00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,479 Speaker 4: been missing in the field of taxon I, which would 903 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,800 Speaker 4: be to name things, you know, perhaps based on using 904 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,279 Speaker 4: indigenous languages, from the location that organism was found, or 905 00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:12,239 Speaker 4: from you know, you know, naming scientists who've been forgotten, 906 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 4: or or you know, sort of like acknowledging like the 907 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,719 Speaker 4: complexity of the human life that might surround the procurement of. 908 00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,040 Speaker 3: That species in the first place. 909 00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:26,400 Speaker 4: So yeah, that that's sort of a fun thing that 910 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 4: I can do with with mabules. 911 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,680 Speaker 1: Now you you mentioned the Court of Steps, and I 912 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,400 Speaker 1: want to highlight that you you do. You did appear 913 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,040 Speaker 1: on Science Friday to discuss uh the fund these particular 914 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,360 Speaker 1: fun guy uh and HBO's The Last Office, which of 915 00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,879 Speaker 1: course has this I guess you'd say, like very sort 916 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,840 Speaker 1: of you know, of course a fantastic sci fi treatment 917 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:53,760 Speaker 1: of court Asteps that's very uh micophobic in its manifestation. 918 00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,759 Speaker 1: But I do refer listeners to that interview if they 919 00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:58,880 Speaker 1: want to they want like the full story. 920 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,600 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, I sort fungal fact from fiction on that episode. 921 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,080 Speaker 1: As we're I believe we're about to go into the 922 00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:08,879 Speaker 1: second season of the Last of Us, any like quick 923 00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:13,279 Speaker 1: reminders for folks about Cortyceps and sort of disconnecting the 924 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,280 Speaker 1: fantasy from the reality totally. 925 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:15,520 Speaker 3: Yes. 926 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:19,440 Speaker 4: So I've been asked a number of times like could 927 00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,319 Speaker 4: people be turned into zombies by a fungus as they 928 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 4: are in the show, And the answers know that these 929 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:35,120 Speaker 4: fungi and the insect hosts that they evolved on were 930 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:39,640 Speaker 4: in a you know, co evolutionary dynamic for millions of 931 00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:45,239 Speaker 4: years and it took That's how the fungus is perfectly adapted, 932 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,880 Speaker 4: not just to like insects broadly, or not even just 933 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,279 Speaker 4: to like, you know, a whole group of insects, but 934 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,319 Speaker 4: specific species of insects. So, for example, Cordyceps could be 935 00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,080 Speaker 4: found on a number of species of ants, but there 936 00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 4: are ants other ant species that live in and amongst 937 00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,719 Speaker 4: you know, those in the areas that Cordyceps grows, and 938 00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,920 Speaker 4: they're not affected because they have, you know, the subtle 939 00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,640 Speaker 4: differences in behavior or or chemical ecology is enough that 940 00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:15,799 Speaker 4: it's incompatible with that very precise co evolutionary dynamic. In 941 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:20,680 Speaker 4: order for fungi to evolve to be doing that to people, 942 00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:26,280 Speaker 4: we would need probably millions and millions of years of exposures. 943 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:31,080 Speaker 4: And our our just bryologies are so different from our ants, 944 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,200 Speaker 4: so we're not really at risk in that way. 945 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:36,560 Speaker 3: I do really like the show. I think it's a 946 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:37,320 Speaker 3: great story. 947 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,560 Speaker 4: It is a little challenging that fungi are demonized, obviously, 948 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,880 Speaker 4: that's kind of kind of, you know, stressful for me. 949 00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,239 Speaker 4: But from a from a storytelling perspective and from an 950 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:49,800 Speaker 4: action perspective, it's a great show. 951 00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:54,279 Speaker 1: Yeah. My wife is a mushroom enthusiast and does like 952 00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,480 Speaker 1: some mushroom club stuff and forging stuff, and so I'll 953 00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,200 Speaker 1: often I would often joke to her after we'd watch 954 00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,160 Speaker 1: an episode of the show about, oh, well, mushrooms are 955 00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,600 Speaker 1: bad news. I got to be watch out for those mushrooms. 956 00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:07,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good way to get under her skin. 957 00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:12,799 Speaker 1: I'm sure. Now coming back to the book again, there's 958 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,120 Speaker 1: a lot. There's a lot about science in there. There's 959 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:19,560 Speaker 1: also a lot of lately a personal interpretation of everything, 960 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: and you get into the philosophy of it all. Can 961 00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:24,400 Speaker 1: you take a moment to tell us what a six 962 00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 1: spot is? Sure, how that can potentially help us all 963 00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:29,520 Speaker 1: in our daily lives. 964 00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:35,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, So a sid spot is a place you go regularly. 965 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,080 Speaker 4: I mean it could be every day, it could be 966 00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 4: once a month, but it's something that you do with 967 00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,480 Speaker 4: some sort of routine and frequency. And it can be 968 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,240 Speaker 4: deep in the forest, it could be in an urban park, 969 00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:52,320 Speaker 4: it could be looking out your window if you're someone 970 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,960 Speaker 4: who can't leave the house or can't do so easily. 971 00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,800 Speaker 4: So it's not really about being in you know this quote, 972 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,240 Speaker 4: It's just about being in community with as many species 973 00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:08,680 Speaker 4: as possible. So I have I'm a teacher. I've taught 974 00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:13,600 Speaker 4: college classes and nature classes, and I have one thing 975 00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:17,480 Speaker 4: I tried I often incorporate into my classes is having. 976 00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:18,600 Speaker 3: My students do a sid spot. 977 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,400 Speaker 4: And the instructions I give is to start by going 978 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,600 Speaker 4: once a week. I think once a week is a 979 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,680 Speaker 4: nice amount of time because it's both like kind of 980 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:29,000 Speaker 4: reasonable for our hectic schedules, but it's also frequent enough 981 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:33,560 Speaker 4: that you it can kind of become like a personal ritual. 982 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:38,920 Speaker 4: And when you what I advise you do is that 983 00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,240 Speaker 4: you go to your sit spot and you go by yourself. 984 00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:43,760 Speaker 3: I think I do think it. 985 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:45,600 Speaker 4: I mean, it's not that you can't go with a buddy, 986 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,440 Speaker 4: but I think it's really nice to go totally to 987 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,720 Speaker 4: be the only human right in that spot. And I 988 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:57,800 Speaker 4: also recommend that you don't bring anything at first. The 989 00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,680 Speaker 4: first couple of spot times. I wouldn't even bring notebook, 990 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,520 Speaker 4: I wouldn't bring anything but just some stuff, maybe some water, 991 00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,360 Speaker 4: maybe a snack if you're you know, but just try 992 00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 4: to go with, you know, keep your phone away, don't 993 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 4: try to take pictures, don't try to record anything, and 994 00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,040 Speaker 4: just be present. And I would recommend the first time 995 00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:18,560 Speaker 4: doing it for at least thirty minutes. You go, you 996 00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,520 Speaker 4: sit for thirty minutes, and you take note as of 997 00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,720 Speaker 4: everything around you. What do you smell, what do you 998 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,160 Speaker 4: take touch with your fingertips, what do you see? Of course, 999 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,640 Speaker 4: what do you hear? Kind of roll through the senses, 1000 00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:34,640 Speaker 4: you know, go, Okay, what am I hearing right now? 1001 00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,360 Speaker 3: Wait? What am I seeing right now? You know? Look around? 1002 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:39,760 Speaker 3: What am I smelling right now? 1003 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,240 Speaker 4: Maybe you're sitting on a bench, or maybe you're sitting 1004 00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,360 Speaker 4: on the forest floor, like what are your fingertips sensing? 1005 00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,919 Speaker 4: And kind of go let yourself sort of move through that. 1006 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:51,680 Speaker 4: My students will tell me that the first few times 1007 00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,400 Speaker 4: they did it, they were incredibly bored. 1008 00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:55,760 Speaker 3: The time for them moved very slowly. 1009 00:59:55,840 --> 01:00:00,000 Speaker 4: They were actually some of them were even detectively irritated 1010 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:06,080 Speaker 4: with the assignment. But as the weeks progressed, one hundred 1011 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:11,080 Speaker 4: percent of the students began to enjoy their time, and 1012 01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,640 Speaker 4: then after a few weeks you start you may maybe 1013 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,080 Speaker 4: you decide, maybe you're an artist and you love illustrating. 1014 01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:17,920 Speaker 4: Maybe you bring a notebook and you sketch some of 1015 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:21,040 Speaker 4: the plants that are growing. Maybe you're you like your 1016 01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,200 Speaker 4: sound person, you bring an audio way to record some audio. 1017 01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:28,640 Speaker 4: But maybe you decide or maybe you're I wouldn't I 1018 01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,000 Speaker 4: wouldn't do too much writing while you're there, because you 1019 01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:35,320 Speaker 4: do want to be mentally loose and receptive, so whatever, 1020 01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,960 Speaker 4: and that's that does look different for everyone. So however, 1021 01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,520 Speaker 4: you can be in a state of looseness and receptivity, 1022 01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,280 Speaker 4: to be porous, to be receiving this sort of the 1023 01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,000 Speaker 4: energy and the sort of information that's flowing from these 1024 01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,240 Speaker 4: other species and from the wind, from the humidity, you know, 1025 01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,960 Speaker 4: whatever it is. And so I think that over time, 1026 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,880 Speaker 4: the point is that you become really immersed and really 1027 01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,120 Speaker 4: into tune with that spot. 1028 01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:03,920 Speaker 3: So I think in the age of. 1029 01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,600 Speaker 4: Climate change and the age of globalization, it can be 1030 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,040 Speaker 4: really really overwhelming to understand where where do you put 1031 01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:15,360 Speaker 4: your focus right There's so many crises, there's so many stressors, 1032 01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,960 Speaker 4: there's so many things drawing and pulling at your attention, 1033 01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,240 Speaker 4: and so this is like kind of a practice of attention. 1034 01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,400 Speaker 4: Where do you give your attention in an intentional way 1035 01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 4: and how does that sort of make you feel held 1036 01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:34,520 Speaker 4: and attuned with the other organisms around you. I also 1037 01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,320 Speaker 4: had a number of students actually cry at the end 1038 01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,480 Speaker 4: of the semester when they had to leave their spots. 1039 01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,240 Speaker 4: They were graduating or they had to leave for the 1040 01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:43,600 Speaker 4: summer or whatever it was, and they were like, I 1041 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:46,040 Speaker 4: can't believe I have to leave this spot, Like this 1042 01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,320 Speaker 4: is my spot, this is like my place. And that 1043 01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:51,880 Speaker 4: happened just in a few months, right, that's just the 1044 01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:56,080 Speaker 4: duration of a college semester. And so for a lot 1045 01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,800 Speaker 4: of people it's an opportunity to become. 1046 01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,200 Speaker 3: Immerse, to be but also to be like a steward. 1047 01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,200 Speaker 4: Right, you suddenly make the more you pay attention to 1048 01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:08,400 Speaker 4: a spot, the more you see. So it's not just 1049 01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,240 Speaker 4: that you're there longer. So it's like you know, an 1050 01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,240 Speaker 4: exponential line of like you're there longer, so you're seeing more, 1051 01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:17,880 Speaker 4: but you're actually like it's actually that your brain starts 1052 01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:20,720 Speaker 4: to rewire a little bit, especially if this practice is 1053 01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:23,360 Speaker 4: really new to you you start to be a you 1054 01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,280 Speaker 4: actually are capable of noticing more the more you sort 1055 01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:30,280 Speaker 4: of engage with this meditatively. And so for some people 1056 01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:34,160 Speaker 4: that can it can help you find a role in 1057 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:38,240 Speaker 4: what is otherwise a very crazy world. Right, how do 1058 01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:40,560 Speaker 4: you become a steward of your own backyard? Like how 1059 01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,320 Speaker 4: can you care for the species? Like maybe you're helping 1060 01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:48,520 Speaker 4: monitor the health of the trees in that area. Maybe 1061 01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:52,520 Speaker 4: you're realizing that there's a ton of there's a you're 1062 01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:57,000 Speaker 4: seeing all these salamanders or amphibians and that actually, oh, 1063 01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:59,600 Speaker 4: actually this is like a vernal pool, and this could 1064 01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:04,800 Speaker 4: be pretty because you know, by local legislation, there's all 1065 01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:06,720 Speaker 4: sorts of ways that you can sort of tune into 1066 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,240 Speaker 4: the life around you and then actually do something to 1067 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:10,560 Speaker 4: help care for it. 1068 01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:12,560 Speaker 3: So I definitely recommend it. 1069 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:14,880 Speaker 4: I think it's such a nice way of like sort 1070 01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:19,800 Speaker 4: of I find it really peaceful and therapeutic and sort 1071 01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:21,440 Speaker 4: of a bomb. 1072 01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,560 Speaker 3: For my nervous system every time I go to my 1073 01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:25,240 Speaker 3: sit spot. So I recommend it. 1074 01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:27,600 Speaker 1: Awesome. Yeah, I'm gonna have to try it as well 1075 01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:29,880 Speaker 1: because I go out of nature, we go on walks 1076 01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,520 Speaker 1: and hikes and all, but this kind of like intentional, 1077 01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:38,560 Speaker 1: meditative approach, setting aside so many distractions and tasks and objectives. 1078 01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:40,760 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I think it's truly attractive. 1079 01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:43,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, it can take a little while to like not 1080 01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,080 Speaker 4: be a little bored, but that's really normal that we're 1081 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,720 Speaker 4: all kind of you know, overstimulated, So it could take 1082 01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,360 Speaker 4: a little bit of time, but I can assure you 1083 01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,720 Speaker 4: that you'll enjoy it as the ritual is established. 1084 01:03:56,200 --> 01:04:01,160 Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, the book is Forest Euphoria, The Abounding Queerness 1085 01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,600 Speaker 1: of Nature. It's out next month in all formats, but 1086 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,360 Speaker 1: available for pre order right now. What is the one 1087 01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:09,480 Speaker 1: thing you want readers to get out of forrest ephor 1088 01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:10,400 Speaker 1: you So, I. 1089 01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:13,800 Speaker 4: Think actually the the sit spot conversation is kind of 1090 01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:16,520 Speaker 4: closest to what I want readers to get out of it. 1091 01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:21,320 Speaker 4: I think that I want readers to feel closer to nature. 1092 01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,280 Speaker 4: I want readers to feel it like they're part of 1093 01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,560 Speaker 4: nature and nature is part of them, and these are 1094 01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:32,120 Speaker 4: things that will strengthen each other, like that knowledge I 1095 01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:33,800 Speaker 4: find is strengthening. 1096 01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:35,680 Speaker 3: It's something that's comforting. 1097 01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:41,400 Speaker 4: It is a a magnetic compass in a time of 1098 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:46,040 Speaker 4: you know, poly crises. So I want people to feel 1099 01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:50,760 Speaker 4: that they belong their differences are what make them a 1100 01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:55,000 Speaker 4: part of this ecology that you know, Ecology is. 1101 01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,120 Speaker 3: All about difference, it's all about. 1102 01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,600 Speaker 4: Multiple, multiple ways of being in forms, and so to 1103 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:07,680 Speaker 4: not feel shame around that. And I want people to 1104 01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:10,480 Speaker 4: see that nature is really all we have. 1105 01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:11,760 Speaker 3: There's nothing without it. 1106 01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,680 Speaker 4: I'm sure a lot of my readers will already be 1107 01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,720 Speaker 4: environmentalists and people committed to the protection of nature, but 1108 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,439 Speaker 4: maybe it'll bring some more people into that fold as well, 1109 01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:23,120 Speaker 4: or strengthen that someone's. 1110 01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:23,480 Speaker 3: Commitment to that. 1111 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,160 Speaker 1: All right, well, Patti, thanks for coming on the show 1112 01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:26,800 Speaker 1: and chatting with me. 1113 01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:29,000 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it's 1114 01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:29,880 Speaker 3: fun to talk to you. Rob. 1115 01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:35,040 Speaker 1: Thanks again to Patty for coming on the show. The 1116 01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:39,120 Speaker 1: book again is Forest Euphoria, The Abounding Queerness of Nature, 1117 01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:42,000 Speaker 1: publishing next month and available for pre order in all 1118 01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:45,160 Speaker 1: formats right now. Again, you'll find a pre order link 1119 01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,800 Speaker 1: in the episode description, or you can look it up 1120 01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:52,840 Speaker 1: at Spiegel and Grau dot com slash Forest hyphen Euphoria. 1121 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,800 Speaker 1: Just a reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 1122 01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,360 Speaker 1: primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on 1123 01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:00,200 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Fridays, we set a I had 1124 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,240 Speaker 1: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film 1125 01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,320 Speaker 1: on Weird House Cinema. Thanks as always to the excellent 1126 01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,760 Speaker 1: JJ Possway for producing the show, and if you'd like 1127 01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:10,520 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us, you can shoot us 1128 01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,439 Speaker 1: an email at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 1129 01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:22,120 Speaker 1: dot com. 1130 01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,080 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 1131 01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:27,959 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 1132 01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:44,880 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.