1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Finding a safe harbor, 2 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: finding a place of peace. I think that most people 3 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: long for that. You know, when when you've you've lived 4 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: a life and you've taken care of your of your family, 5 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: your kids, you've done the best that you can and 6 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: sometimes even the best that you can do is not enough. 7 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: Many times you'll have to take care of your grandkids. 8 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: That's happened over and over again, and it's happened in 9 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: the past, it's happening right now, it will happen in 10 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: the future. But you know, when you have a big 11 00:00:54,760 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: heart and you love your family, you'll do justify anything 12 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: in the world for them, even bringing a grandchild to 13 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: a location that is your place of peace. And it 14 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: is that which I want to speak of today. I'd 15 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: like to talk about a place of peace because it's 16 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: in this place that two grandparents with open arms and 17 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: open hearts were murdered and left in the basement of 18 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: their home, and that home, that place of peace, was 19 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: set ablaze to cover up any evidence left behind. I'm 20 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Facts Dave. When 21 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: I grew up, when I was a kid, I grew 22 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: up during the time of Walter Cronkite on TV as 23 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: you did too. I know that, yep, and uh, you 24 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: know Roger Mudd and all those guys. And we saw 25 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: the hippies, right, You'd see the hippies at night on 26 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: on on television, and they you know, they they were curious, 27 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: you know, when you'd see them. It was a curious thing. 28 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: But one of the things that came out of that 29 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: is that we begin as time went by, you began 30 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: hearing hearing this weird word that really wasn't part of 31 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: I don't think the lexicon in you know, the fifties 32 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: and early sixties of America, and that's the word commune. 33 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: I kind of it's kind of a it's kind of 34 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: an odd, an odd thing, and some people would say 35 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: that it's got kind of a I don't know, kind 36 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: of a Commy esque vibe to it, you know, commune actualism, 37 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: communist sharing things. 38 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: That's communal living. 39 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, communal living. 40 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: These people had this idea. They're on this beautiful picturesque 41 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: settlement created by a grandma and grandpa who take in 42 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: their twenty nine year old grandson to share. 43 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: I know you're from the West Coast I've been out 44 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: in this region. I've seen the Olympia Mountains which were breathtaking, 45 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: and it's different than the big mountain chain, you know, 46 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: with the like Mount Saint Helens and all that. It's 47 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: different than that. Is this the Puget Sound, There. 48 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: Is the Pacific Northwest. Yeah, if you think about Sea 49 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: tac Okay, Seattle, Tacoma, they do have a lot of 50 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: beautiful area, water islands. There's all kinds of neat places 51 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: out there, beautiful And in this particular case, I'm thinking 52 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 2: about this grandpa and grandma that everybody loved, Joe, right, 53 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: these people when I'm obviously we're talking about their murder, 54 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: a grandma and grandpa that were murdered, and it wasn't 55 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: just a home invasion that went bad. This was an 56 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: internal and it was horrible. It was horrific what happened 57 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: to these two people who everybody loved. When they actually 58 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: had a memorial service for them a year after their death, 59 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: you know, at what everybody did. They celebrated their lives 60 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: by talking and sharing great stories about them. And it's 61 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: just it makes you tear up when you think about 62 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: the one thing you want people to do is to 63 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: appreciate you. When you're gone, you know what kind of 64 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: person you are. And that's all any of the people 65 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 2: in this community said was why these were the two 66 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: people that when their grandson had some issues and needed 67 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: a place, they opened up their doors and all of 68 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: his problems they welcomed them. Come on, we're a loving place. 69 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 2: Be here with us, grandson. And what did the grandson 70 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 2: do well? The neighbors say that they called nine to 71 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 2: one one because they started hearing explosions and then they 72 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: saw fire. They saw fire at their neighbors house where 73 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: the where Joanna Gormley and Ted Ralston lived, and so 74 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: fire company shows up. Joe, what they find is pretty despicable. 75 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: Joanne is like seventy three and I think Ted's like 76 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: seventy one. 77 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: Yeact. That's exactly it. 78 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: When firefighters respond to something like this, and when they 79 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: show up and you know you've you've got the the 80 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: initial reports that are coming in and they're hearing that 81 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: there have been explosions, the first thing I think that 82 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: most firefighters will think is there an active gas line 83 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: in the house. I actually, many years ago had I 84 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: had a case where a male delivery person pressed the 85 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: doorbell on a home and a gas stove had the 86 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: eye wide open and leveled the house, killed the mail carrier. 87 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: This is many many years ago. Yeah and so and 88 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: it it leveled the house, I mean down to the foundations. 89 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: It was. 90 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 2: I thought that was just something out of a Schwarzenegger movie, 91 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: like you know Razor. When he turned he broke the 92 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: gas thing and turned the thermistad up and when he 93 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: kicked on boom. 94 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: No. No, it does happen, and it has happened a 95 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: number of times, and all it takes. And it's a 96 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: very That environment in which that occurs is very volatile, 97 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: and so you when you have firefighters that show up 98 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: at a scene like this, it's absolutely horrific. They get 99 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: into the scene and they're trying to extinguish what remains 100 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: of a fire that has been left burning. Here's the thing, 101 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: because you know, when people like myself get involved in 102 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: a death investigation that involves fire, you know who we 103 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: lean on that most people don't consider to be forensic 104 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: scientists are arson investigators. And I have to tell you, 105 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: as a forensics guy, arson investigators to me are heroes. 106 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: I mean they because they are they are in their 107 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: purest form a forensic investor because they can do things 108 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: and see things in an environment that is charred and 109 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: scarred and dangerous that the rest of us cannot see. 110 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: You see arson investigators show up obviously after the fire 111 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: has been extinguished, okay, and the work that firefighters do, 112 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: the arson investigators have to make sense of all that's 113 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: left behind. And that's not an easy task because let 114 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: me tell you what they're up against. Not only are 115 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: they up against an explosion that may have taken place, 116 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: which is going to kind of blast out a particular area. 117 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: If there was a device or an active gas line 118 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: in that area, it's going to greatly destroy the immediate area. 119 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: Now that's good and bad because that gives us an 120 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: indication of where this occurred. If you've got a blast area, 121 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: then you've got all of the burning that's taken place, 122 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: and you think about electrical outlets, all those things that 123 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: you might look at to see as a point of 124 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: origin for the fire. Then you're talking about structural collapse 125 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: as well. You know where the roof many times on 126 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: a structure will cave in. And not only that, but 127 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: you know firefighters when they go in if people at 128 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: home have never seen a pike pole which firefighters carry. 129 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: It's a long pole that's got a hook on the 130 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: end of it. What they will do is they will 131 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: walk into a space where a fire has taking place. 132 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: They'll go up into the ceiling with a scene and 133 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: pull it down really hard. What they're doing when they're 134 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: doing this is to check to see if there's any 135 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: active fire still going on above head. And this does happen. 136 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: I actually had a beam collapse on my head one 137 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: time at a scene. I wore a fire helmet on 138 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: every other subsequent case I ever worked on. It had 139 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: medical examiner written on the top of it because it 140 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: scared me. The most dangerous scenes I've ever been on 141 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: have been fired. I've been shocked before. I had an 142 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: electric to run through my shoe, through my boot. I 143 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: arcd out of seen. They're very, very dangerous, and so 144 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: there's there's danger around every corner. So an arson investigator 145 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: has to go into this just terribly chaotic environment and 146 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: to assess what has happened in this environment, because you know, 147 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: fires don't just spontaneously begin there. They originate from somewhere, 148 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: and you have to understand first off, is it an 149 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: act of God like a lightning strike. Perhaps was it 150 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: a careless activity that someone was gauging. Hey, maybe they're 151 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: burning leaves in the backyard and some of those hot 152 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: leaves roll up onto the roof and it starts a 153 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: fire on the roof of the house. Or or maybe 154 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: somebody left a candle burning and it catches a curtain 155 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: on fire. You never know, Or is it something far 156 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: darker where you go into an environment and you wind 157 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: up discovering that someone has intentionally set a fire in 158 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: order to cover. 159 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 2: Up a misdeed. 160 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: A lot of us that work in my field suffer 161 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: from nightmares. It's a consequence of the work that we do, 162 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: the things that we see. Personally, my reoccurrent nightmare was 163 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: that I was on a barge flowing on a barge 164 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: that was on the Mississippi River, spinning out of control, 165 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: and I was completely surrounded by decomposing bodies and I 166 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: couldn't escape them, and the flies were all over me. 167 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: And I had this reoccurring nightmare that would happen over 168 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: and over and over again, and I went through many 169 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: years of therapy as a result of being diagnosed with PTSD. 170 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,599 Speaker 1: I had a friend of mine who was an emmy investigator, 171 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: and he always had reoccurring nightmares of fires. He worked 172 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: a scene that really got to him where he had 173 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: an entire family and it was upwards of six people 174 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: that all burned to death in his house and they 175 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: had gathered together in one spot and died together in 176 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: that spot. And for some reason, and he'd worked multiple homicides, 177 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,199 Speaker 1: he was really a top notch investigator, but for some reason, 178 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: that one case impacted him. I'm no fan of fires, 179 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: all right, they didn't impact me the way they did 180 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: my friend. But still despite all of the horror, you 181 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: still I'll have to try to figure things out, Dave, 182 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: And many times that's very difficult in these environments. 183 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 2: Well, in this particular case, and I'm I know that 184 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 2: neighbors have called because they have this senior couple that 185 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 2: they're worried about. The neighbors were struck by the explosion. 186 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: They heard the noise and then they saw the flame. 187 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 2: So to see something like that, you know an event 188 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: has taken place. So when the fire people get there, 189 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 2: I don't know what's going through their heads, you know, 190 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 2: because they just know there are two older people that 191 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 2: live in this house and they're not outside, so they're 192 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: either inside and trapped or something bad. But there is 193 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: a younger person twenty nine years old who does live 194 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: with them. Can't find him either, see his car out here. 195 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: But they go in to try to find is there 196 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: anybody in here? Maybe the older couple is hurt whatever, 197 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: And they go in and they find them. They find 198 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: Joanna Gormley and at Ralston. Joanna and Ted are downstairs 199 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: at this house. They were laying side by side. And 200 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 2: when you mentioned your friend found these people in a 201 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: home where they were all cloistered together for survival, that's 202 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: not what happened here, because these experts knew these bodies 203 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: were found in a suspicious position. They were laid side 204 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 2: by side, they had been dragged down the stairs. So 205 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: now the firemen, no, this is not a fire that 206 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: caused these deaths. Something happened first. I assume they're going 207 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: to jump to that conclusion. 208 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they would. And let me tell you how 209 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: how aware firefighters are relative to something like this. They 210 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: know when they see an orientation of a body like 211 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: this that have seen not to mention too. They know 212 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: that once they've called they've called safe at the scene, Okay, 213 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: they are to back out at that moment time because 214 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: they know that they're in the midst of a crime scene, 215 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: a homicide. 216 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: Well wait a minute, Okay, you said call safe, what 217 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 2: does that mean? To call it? 218 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: That means that the all clears, the fire extent essentially 219 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: has been has been extinguished. And this is the other thing. 220 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: The structure has to be declared safe so that if 221 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: anybody else is going to go in, they have to 222 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: render it safe in order to facilitate any kind of examination, 223 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: and they actually have Some departments will have I've seen 224 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: a couple of things. Some departments will actually have hydraulic 225 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: jacks that they will bring in to support beams. It's 226 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: like an immediate thing that they can kind of go 227 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: and raise these things up to support the ceiling temporarily 228 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: so that if you walk through it, it's not going 229 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: to collapse on the investigation or anybody else that's doing 230 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: any kind of remediation work. You know, inside of that environment. 231 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: They're not there permanently because in most you know, critically 232 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: damaged structures, they're going down to the ground, they're going 233 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: to be torn down. But you have to freeze that 234 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: moment so that it can be assessed and that you 235 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: can go in and try to understand what happens when 236 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: you find two bodies. Though this kicks it up to 237 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: another level. This is not just like, oh, gee whiz, 238 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: we left you know, we left something on the stove 239 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: and the house caught a blaze. And here's another thing. 240 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: When you get into a location where there's been an explosion, 241 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: and you can, let me try to explain this to you, 242 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: when you look for a point of origin with a fire, 243 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: and a rule of thumb about fires is that wherever, 244 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: And it seems very simplistic, but sometimes people forget when 245 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: when you do your assessment at a fire scene, you 246 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: look for where there is the most damage that has 247 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: occurred to a specific location. Let's say you've got northeast 248 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: south west walls. Okay, on the west wall, the wall 249 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: is severely charred. As a matter of fact, it's burned 250 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: all the way through the dry wall. You can see 251 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: the exterior. You can see the charred two by fours 252 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: in the wall, the studs, and as a matter of fact, 253 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: the insulation has been burned away and you can actually 254 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: see holes in a siding outside so you can see daylight. 255 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: You know that there's been an intense fire there, and 256 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: you also can appreciate the growth of fire where it 257 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: goes up because what is fire always doing. Fire is 258 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: always seeking oxygen because that's the true that is the 259 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: true fuel for fire. And we look at fire from 260 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: the perspective of it's a multi stage event. You have 261 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: to have an initiator, which is going to be like 262 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: a flame. Okay, Then in cases of arson, you're looking 263 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: for an accelerant. Perhaps Now there are other things that 264 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: can be used to start suspicious fire, and it's not 265 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: necessarily an accelerant like gas or propane or diesel or 266 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 1: anything like that. But most of the time it's going 267 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: to be be a gas And many times with gas, 268 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: if somebody walks in with a you know, a jug 269 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: of gasoline, they will take it and fling it at 270 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: a wall and you'll get what are called splash patterns. 271 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: And Dave, you're you're a radio guy, so you understand 272 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: what sound waves look like, and so just imagine a 273 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: burned in sound wave to a wall where it's peaking. 274 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: It's got valleys, and you can it's almost like splashed water, 275 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: and the fire will track along that as it's set 276 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: a blaze, and then it consumes that area and sometimes 277 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 1: that splash pattern can be and then it spreads out 278 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: so where the least amount of damage there's going to be. 279 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: That generally means that there was no accelerant in that area. 280 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: But it still might be a fuel source like the 281 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: dry wall or furniture or any of this other stuff 282 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: that's in the room that's kind of helping it out. 283 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: But it has to have an what's referred to as 284 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: an uninhibited supply of oxygen to continue to burn. And 285 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: that's why fires go up. You know, they're seeking oxy 286 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: The fire is seeking oxygen. I'm talking about fire like 287 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: it's like it's a human being, but it is. It's 288 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: seeking oxygen in order to sustain its sustain itself. And 289 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: that's why you'll see, you know, people and you know 290 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: if you're in a you have a kitchen fire. You know, 291 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: you'll see the pictures of firefighters demonstrating their gear. How 292 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: they'll take a blanket and they'll throw it over to 293 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: suffocate it to you know, to kind of knock it down. 294 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: You put a blanket on somebody and you know, you 295 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: roll them around the ground. It has to have oxygen 296 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: when you get into an environment like this where you've 297 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: got this idea. As an investigator, I have to determine 298 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: where the fire started, and then I have to assess 299 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: the bodies, their position relative to the fire, Is there 300 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: any indication that they were alive? And who the heck 301 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: lays down side by side with one another and looks 302 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: like they've been laid out for their burial. That's something 303 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: that just doesn't jib when you think about it. So 304 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: the circumstances with this particular case are super bizarre, and 305 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: they're kind of away from the fire, if you will, 306 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: and there you know, And why if a fire starts 307 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: on the first floor and you've got a basement, why 308 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: are you going to go down to the basement if 309 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: there's not, say, for instance, an easy way to get 310 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: out of the house. Now, maybe you're trying to flee 311 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: the fire. Maybe you go down the staircase. You can't 312 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: get out the door, But most people are going to 313 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: try to get to a window. They're going to try 314 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: to get to a door to get out and get away. 315 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: These people didn't do that. And hey, they lived here. 316 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: Even in the midst of the fire, they knew where 317 00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: the exits were. 318 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 2: And according to the fireman that not only they know 319 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: where the exits were they had been drug There was 320 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 2: evidence they had been drug into place, So what did 321 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 2: the firemen do? Then? They know these people didn't just 322 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: there's something else going on. Are these bodies totally burned? 323 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: Go, No, probably not. I would assume that they're not. 324 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: And one of the things that one of the fascinating 325 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: things about bodies that are exposed to intense heat, as 326 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: doesn't happen with bodies that are in a fire that 327 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: are not exposed to really intense heat, is that bodies 328 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,239 Speaker 1: will assume what's referred to as a pugilistic position. And 329 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: pugilism is an old term for boxing, okay, in front 330 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: of your face exactly. So if people, if our friends 331 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: in the audience, will just remember that what you're looking 332 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: for in a pugilistic pose and a fire desk is 333 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: that the hands, the fist will actually clinch. Sometimes the 334 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: arms at the elbows and the shoulders will draw in 335 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: towards the bodies, and the legs will draw up and 336 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: you'll see them almost in a fetal like position, but 337 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: the hands will be drawn up. And for years we've 338 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: referred to this as a pugilistic posture. And this comes 339 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: about as a result of all of the connective tissue. Okay, 340 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: the tendons in particular that are contracting as a result 341 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: of high heat, and that contract in towards the body 342 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: like this, and you get a very tense posture like this. 343 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: And it has nothing to do with trying to gauge 344 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: whether or not someone was alive or dead at the 345 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: times the fire started. Has nothing to do It's simply 346 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: the exposure to heat that creates that. You may think 347 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: that you've been dirty before, maybe you trumped through the 348 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: mud and an old pair of boots, maybe you've slid 349 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: down a wet hill, you got grass stains all over you. Mud. 350 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: You don't know dirty until you have walked through a 351 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: house fire. There is nothing you can do to come 352 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: out clean. And not only are you gonna come out dirty, 353 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: you're gonna because you're walking through ashes that are wet 354 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: and they're adhering to you. To every if you brush 355 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: up against something, you're contaminated with this, it's certainly all 356 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: over your shoes. And here's the other thing. For days afterwards, 357 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: you're going to smell like smoke. Period. You will smell 358 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: like smoke anywhere you go, even after you take a shower. 359 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes you can still smell it in your hair even 360 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 1: days afterwards. It's one of those things that you talk 361 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: talk to firefighters. I'm more acutely aware of it because 362 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: I'm not a firefighter. Firefighters like, I've still got enough 363 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: little boy in me that I can't help it. I 364 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: want to stop at a fire station when I'm driving by. 365 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: I just want to see the trucks. You know, I've 366 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: taken my grandkids to see the trucks. That's the fact. 367 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: Because I dig firehouses, I dig firefighters. I think they're cool. 368 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: But you know, you get that smell on you and 369 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: it's really hard to get rid of. So that is 370 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: an indicator of the chaos that you're walking into when 371 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: you walk. It's not just a standard cromp scene. It 372 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: is something that is above and beyond anything else that 373 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: you might work. 374 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 2: Okay, so now we know we've got two bodies. We've 375 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: got Joanna Gormley and her husband ted A. Joanna seventy three, 376 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 2: Ted is seventy one, and they are both They've been 377 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: positioned in the basement. They've been drugged down the stairs. 378 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: They know now the firemen do this is a They 379 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: didn't dive from fire. They can look at the bodies 380 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: and know their position, know their placement. They've been drugged there, Yes, 381 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: there's a fire upstairs. We've dealt with that. Now they 382 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 2: call them the investigators. Are they going to call you 383 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: injo Are you going to come in and look at 384 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 2: the bodies as they're laid out on the floor. Yeah? 385 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: And what are you going to see? In these cases? 386 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 2: I know what you're going to see and it's pretty despicable. 387 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: But I got questions for you about both of them, 388 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: because what happened to Joanna and Ted are different that one. 389 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: Very specific injuries here. 390 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we do go out to the scenes, the 391 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: EMMY investigators, corner investigators, and we conduct our assessment. We'll 392 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: be there with the arson investigators. They're spun up as well. 393 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: Sometimes detectives will come out. But this is the unique 394 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: thing about arson investigators that people might not realize. In 395 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: many jurisdictions, arson investigators, though they work for the fire service, 396 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: are also post certified police officers and they can come 397 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: into this role in two different ways. They can either 398 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: previously have been firefighters and they're sent to the police 399 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: academy and then sent to arson school, or can happen 400 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: in the reverse. You'll have police officers that want to 401 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: become arson investigators and they'll actually go through the fire 402 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: academy and then become arson investigators because you have to 403 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: understand the nature of it, because fire is such a 404 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: dynamic event that occurs, and so they would be out 405 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: there with me, crime scene photographers, any kind of other 406 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: forensic forensic investigators that might be there to collect evidence 407 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: at the direction of the arson investigator. And you have 408 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: to have a very particular skill set in order to 409 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: do this because when you look at the scene around you, 410 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: it's very confusing. You're looking at shades of black and gray. 411 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: That's about it, that's really and you have no lighting, 412 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: so you have to bring in lights because the electricity 413 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,959 Speaker 1: is all shut down and so in order to illuminate 414 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: anything there. So when you're doing these exams on these 415 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: bodies at the scene, you're looking for any kind of 416 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: trauma that there might be that you can still pick 417 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: up on, and these bodies there's a high probability with 418 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: these bodies if the house is supersaturated with water, the 419 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: bodies are gonna be supersaturated with water. So you're thinking, 420 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I've lost evidence. 421 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 2: All right now, Joe. In this particular case where the 422 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: people right away they know we've got two senior citizens dead, 423 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: they are not they didn't die from the fire, right 424 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 2: are you gonna? Are you gonna look at their bodies 425 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 2: in there and start really doing an investigation and finding 426 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: out the wounds, because in this particular case, we know 427 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 2: they were stabbed to death. These two older people were 428 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: stabbed to death in their own home. And if I'm 429 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: I'm the outside looking in, I'm thinking fire didn't kill him. 430 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 2: There's two of them dead, and we know we got 431 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 2: a twenty nine year old grandson who's not here. What 432 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 2: really happened? What you're gonna find? Joanna has been stabbed 433 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,719 Speaker 2: in the throat. Drantic Gormley is seventy three years old. 434 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: She's been stabbed in the throat multiple times. Right, But 435 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 2: Ted Rawlston is seventy one. He's been stabbed in the chest. 436 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 2: Is there a difference to you when you see very 437 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: specific injuries that are different. 438 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is. And it's the orientation to the bodies 439 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: at the time of the attack. What do you have 440 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:14,239 Speaker 1: access to? And also if here's another thing, when I 441 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 1: hear when I hear of any any individual that is 442 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:24,479 Speaker 1: being attacked in the region of the head. There's a 443 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: deeper thing going on here, and I think that probably 444 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: some of these injuries probably extend up beneath the chin. 445 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: These sort of things, it's almost like an attack on 446 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: that person. Who are we as people? Well, when we 447 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: look in the mirror, we identify ourselves with our faces. 448 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: We wake up with it every morning, for good or 449 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: for bad. In my case, you know, I stare into 450 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: a mirror. So when you have a suspect that is attaching, 451 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: attacking someone, We've talked about this before on body bags, 452 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: there's an attempt to desecrate the body perhaps or to 453 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: mutilate the body. First thing that people go for is 454 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: the face. You know. Stabbing in the chest, yeah, it's 455 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: you know, it's equally lethal. However, if you're stabbed in 456 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: the neck, are you attempting to disfigure them or are 457 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: you attempting to get to the viscera beneath beneath the 458 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: skin in the neck to try to get down to 459 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: the major vessels, or are you trying to cut their 460 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: throat or you're trying to cut their airway. It's almost 461 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: an unsurvivable event in either case. 462 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 2: And in this particular case where we're dealing with the 463 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 2: firemen coming in, binding the bodies and barely quickly realizing 464 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: what is and isn't going on. We know that Ezra Rawlston, 465 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: twenty nine years old, lives there with his grandparents. But 466 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: as police begin investigating, they start finding out a few things. 467 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 2: First things, first, Ezra has contacted his dad and said, hey, 468 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: grandma and grandpa are sick. They think they have COVID. 469 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: I think they have to go to the hospital. He's 470 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 2: making up stories about to cover what's going on. Grandma, 471 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: they're sick, don't come and check on and they got 472 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: COVID kind of thing. Meanwhile, as police think about it, 473 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 2: this is a fairly small community, isolated area in terms 474 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: of it being on this peninsula. Mom calls police. I 475 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 2: don't know where my son is. He has some issues, 476 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: he's got mental issues. So the police are getting these calls. Hey, man, 477 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: my son just said that my parents have COVID. Their 478 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: house just burned down. And by the way, my now 479 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 2: the wife is saying, hey, he's crazy. So the police 480 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 2: immediately are looking at Ezra Ralston as we better talk 481 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: to this guy Joe. Now, when they find Ezra Ralston, 482 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: Are they going to find evidence of setting a fire? 483 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: Are they going to find evidence of using a knife 484 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: on Ezra? Are they going to Are they going to 485 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: find this on him? I would think with a knife 486 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: he might have cuts on his hands. He's fought two 487 00:29:59,160 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 2: old people. 488 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: He could. Because it's a very intimate situation and depended 489 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: upon the physcal limitations of the victim or lack thereof, 490 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: the assailant could have injuries on them. You know, you 491 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: can have evidence that someone has fought back. Particularly, this 492 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: is a very personal thing. This is not like taking 493 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: a thirty eight caliber revolver and firing from fifteen feet 494 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: away and shooting them dead. Now, you have to be 495 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: very intimately in their space. You have to know them, 496 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: and you have to be resolute at what you're doing, 497 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: because once you make that first that first stab woe 498 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: into this living person, they're going to react. Their pain 499 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: centers are going to fire off, and they're going to 500 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: try to flirt further attack. If they're awake when this 501 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: is going on, and even if they're asleep, they're going 502 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: to wake up. So you have to be resolute in this. 503 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: Now, I'm glad you just brought that up joke, because 504 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: that's something that came out of the investigation. Ezra Ralston 505 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: had planned on doing this when they were asleep. The 506 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 2: original plan was to kill them in their sleep, but 507 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: they were awake. They wouldn't go to sleep, and he 508 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 2: was texting his girlfriend, Rebecca Kniebauer, and he said, they're awake, 509 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: and so she was actually recommending things for him to 510 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: do to take them out while they're awake. And that's 511 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 2: what I was wondering if that had something to do 512 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 2: with the injuries because they were awake, they were not 513 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: asleep as he had hoped, and so the grandma gets 514 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 2: it across the neck, grandfather gets it in the chest. 515 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, very well. You know, we have to think that 516 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: if they had been asleep, maybe both of the individuals 517 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: would have had their throats cut. Perhaps you would have 518 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: them in truly an asymmetrical position where the assailant is 519 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: over them and completely dominating them. But you know, you 520 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: can achieve these kind of injuries if both individuals are seated, 521 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: but if you're doing it in their presence in the 522 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: if you're attacking one person in the presence of another, okay, 523 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: you're going to have a reaction if they're both awake, 524 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: So what happens. Okay, maybe you walk up up and 525 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: you stab Grandpa in the chest. He you know, he 526 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: has an awareness, he screams out, he tries to fend 527 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: this off. Grandma is awake or she's awake and she 528 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: is alert, and she's seeing what's happening to her husband. 529 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: And then suddenly you have to reach over and grab her. 530 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: What are you gonna do with a knife where you're 531 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: gonna take it and you're gonna stick it in her throat? 532 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: And another thing that's quite kind of interesting. If she 533 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: is the second victim in this case, she may have 534 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: been screaming out. You know, there may be an attempt 535 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: to quieten her. And by quieten her, I mean you 536 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: cut her throat, You try to in size her throat, 537 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: and you're going to inhibit her ability to scream it out. Now, 538 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: they kind of live in isolation. But you know, if 539 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: you're an intimate, if you're a family member like this, 540 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. If there's nobody for twenty miles around. 541 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: This same woman for years who has taken care of you, 542 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: has walked into your bedroom, perhaps early in the morning, 543 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: says hey, it's time to get up, Ezra, I've got 544 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: breakfast ready for you. That same person that has said 545 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: this to you for years and years is now screaming 546 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: out for her life. My god, what are you doing? 547 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: You know you want to silence her as quickly as possible, 548 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: and so, yeah, the dynamics of this can change very 549 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: very quickly, Dave. 550 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: Well, you know this is one of those situations, Joe. 551 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 2: As the investigation rolled it off, it came down to you. 552 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 2: Mentioned in the very early part of the show about 553 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 2: commune a living a commune, Ezra Ralston living with his 554 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: grandparents tells his girlfriend, I'm tired of living with them. 555 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: His girlfriend and they have two other friends. They have 556 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 2: this crazy idea of I don't know, going back to 557 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 2: the sixties and starting their own commune. And they think 558 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: this house on the peninsula would be a great place 559 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: to start. And so instead of waiting for the old 560 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 2: people to die, they're not that old. Actually, you know, 561 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 2: back in the day, seventy one seventy three, that was old, Joe. 562 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 2: That's not old anymore, No, that is I mean, and 563 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 2: I know it's not just because you and I are 564 00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: getting older, but it used to be when people died 565 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 2: in their late fifties. They would say he had a 566 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 2: good life. Hey, dad, little young, but good. I mean, 567 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 2: my grandmother died at fifty eight. She lived a good life. Now, 568 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,919 Speaker 2: seventy one and seventy three, you're still working full time 569 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 2: in a lot of cases, the United States is in 570 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 2: his eighties for crying out loud, you know. Anyway, So 571 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,919 Speaker 2: Ezra Ralston is texting his girlfriend. He's afraid now because 572 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 2: they are honestly, they're awake, and she is writing back 573 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: suggestions as to what to do, and she's encouraging him. Okay, 574 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 2: how she can keep everything calm, How he can keep 575 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: things calmer out there while he commits these murders. And 576 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 2: she's going, you got this, babe, you got I mean, 577 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 2: I love you so much, can't believe you're so strong. 578 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 2: You got this. She's encouraging him to kill the grandparents 579 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 2: who took him in. 580 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: This is what happens. She's lit a fire here, or 581 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: maybe she has metaphorically met a fire. Yeah, she has 582 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: poor fuel onto the fire that already existed. She's encouraging him. 583 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: She is as guilty as he is. 584 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 2: In my mind, You're so amazing, you got this. He 585 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: wrote that to him, I. 586 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: Know, And after he has slaughtered his grandparents, he's communicating 587 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: with his girlfriend about cleaning up the scene with bleach. 588 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: He makes the comment Dave, that it's the use of 589 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: the bleach is beginning to make the home smell as 590 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: though it is a quote unquote a science experiment with 591 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: dead frogs. 592 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: This is a real loving grandson. It smells like dead frogs. 593 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: Here's something that I learned from experience over the years 594 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: of working in the more. Blood has got a Some 595 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: people describe it as a sickly sweet smell, but for me, 596 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: blood always has almost like a metallic odor to it, 597 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: particularly when you get a large amount of it. You 598 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: know that you're inhalating, particularly if you're not used to it, 599 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: so it will have a strange, almost metallic smell to it. 600 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: And you combine that with introducing bleach, pure bleach into 601 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: an environment in order to cover everything up, and I 602 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: can only imagine that, you know. I guess many people 603 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: believe that if you're going to pour bleach on something, 604 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,479 Speaker 1: that's going to eradicate certain types of evidence, and in fact, 605 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: I think that probably to a certain degree, it will. However, 606 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: there is certain things you cannot eradicate. You cannot eradicate 607 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: the fact that circumstantially you live with these people that 608 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: you have been texting back and forth with your girlfriend. 609 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: You've got an electronic bread crumb. You've got an electronic 610 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: bread crumb there. And then on top of that, you 611 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: cannot eradicate those stab wounds. There is no way that 612 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 1: you can make those disappear and go away. It doesn't 613 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: matter how much bleach you pour on them. So at 614 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: the end, you know, you begin to think, well, the 615 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,399 Speaker 1: best thing that I can do, because most arsonists think 616 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: this way. They think that if I apply fire, if 617 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: I apply fire, I'm going to eradicate everything. So he's 618 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: gone up in levels. He's tried to hide the bodies 619 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 1: in the basement, he's tried to apply bleachs to them. 620 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: And on top of it, now we're going to douse 621 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: everything in gasoline, and not just a little bit of gasoline, 622 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: but five five containers of gasoline, and it just so 623 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: happens that this propane tank explodes. 624 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 2: It's difficult to figure any of this out, Joe, because 625 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 2: with the propane explosion, I have to wonder if Ezra 626 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 2: Ralston had a plan. Criminally speaking, his girlfriend fiance Rebecca 627 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 2: and Nubauer. She pleaded guilty to second degree murder and 628 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 2: conspiracy to commit murder and was sentenced to thirty three 629 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,439 Speaker 2: years and four months in prison. Ezra Ralston, at twenty nine, 630 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: was convicted of two counts of aggravated murder, conspiracy to 631 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 2: commit murder, and first degree arson by a jury. He 632 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 2: received a mandatory sentence of life without parole. Joe, what 633 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: do you think about Ezra Ralston's endgame? 634 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 1: Did he just ponder for a moment that everything would vaporize, 635 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: that everything would be gone? And of course here's the 636 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,399 Speaker 1: rough People that burn things up might think that they're 637 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: getting rid of evidence, but in our world, in the 638 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: world of forensics, you're just creating. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 639 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks.