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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Sex Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today are musician Bobby Calumni and filmmaker John Shinfield,

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Speaker 1: and they're here to talk about the new movie What

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Speaker 1: the hell happened to Blood Sweat and Tears? Why this movie? Why? Now?

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Speaker 1: It's all Bobby's fault, Bob we It was literally about

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Speaker 1: two months before COVID hit and Bobby called up and said,

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Speaker 1: I want to take you to lunch. I want to

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Speaker 1: tell you a story. And we went to lunch. We're

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Speaker 1: just talking a bit about the band. I've been a

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Speaker 1: fan of Blood Sweat and Tears since my high school days.

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Speaker 1: You know, your column you sort of had people talking

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Speaker 1: about the Al Cooper Lovers and the David Clayton Thomas Lovers.

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Speaker 1: I actually loved both of them. They're great albums, so

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Speaker 1: I'm fine with both. But we were talking about it

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Speaker 1: and I said to Bobby, what of hell happened to

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Speaker 1: Blood Sweat and Tears? Because here we were in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy one of the hottest bands going, and then suddenly

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Speaker 1: they weren't and what happened? And he said, that's the

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Speaker 1: story I'm going to tell you. And the more I

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Speaker 1: heard about this, Bob, the more I wanted to do

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Speaker 1: some due diligence and see what else was out there.

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Speaker 1: And not a lot of people knew this story, and

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Speaker 1: that's always a great thing for a filmmaker when it

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Speaker 1: hasn't been covered too much. And I just I saw

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Speaker 1: there were certainly some parallels to what's going on in

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Speaker 1: the world today. But I'm a story guy, and it

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Speaker 1: was a great story and there's always room for that

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Speaker 1: when you're making the film. Okay, Bobby, since it was

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Speaker 1: your idea, why now, well, you know, for all of us,

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Speaker 1: life goes on, and that was just a brief chapter.

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Speaker 1: It was ten years, but it was a chapter in

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Speaker 1: my life. And we did that tour. We it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, an insane situation. We saw things we didn't

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Speaker 1: anticipate we were, which we'll get to I'm sure kind

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Speaker 1: of kind of blackmailed into having to do it. And

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Speaker 1: like in retrospect, now happened because another friend of mine,

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Speaker 1: Rupert Perry, and I had dinner and we're just talking

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Speaker 1: about something and they used to play drums and he's

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Speaker 1: a wonderful guy and he just said kind of the

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Speaker 1: same sort of thing. What happened and I started to

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Speaker 1: tell the story, said, oh my god, where's that film?

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Speaker 1: Because we were talking about a film that was shot.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to those who uninformed. You did this

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Speaker 1: under the aegis of the government. In nineteen seventy you

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Speaker 1: went on a tour of Eastern Europe three countries, Poland,

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Speaker 1: Romania and Yugoslavia and film was shot, but it was

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Speaker 1: for a documentary which was never released. So you're talking

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Speaker 1: about that film, yes, absolutely, And it was not really

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Speaker 1: to be made as a document entry. It was just

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Speaker 1: like a music film that this independent film company tried

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Speaker 1: to shoot so that they could sell it. But part

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Speaker 1: I was the band leader at that point, and I

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Speaker 1: had said to them, listen, you can come on this tour,

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Speaker 1: but if I don't like this thing, it ain't going anywhere.

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Speaker 1: And they went, no problem, you're gonna love it, and

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Speaker 1: they shot the film, but then it disappeared and there

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Speaker 1: was some vague version of it from a camcorda to

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Speaker 1: a monitor on a television, and I'd seen it way

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Speaker 1: back then, and it just it didn't really depict what

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Speaker 1: I was hoping would be a great like a music

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Speaker 1: film about the band, and it turned into something completely different,

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Speaker 1: and at the time it was so convoluted. I just said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this is not for us, but thank you. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: John has another take on this. Yeah, Bob, we found

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Speaker 1: a lot of internal State Department communications memos, telegrams, telexes,

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Speaker 1: so there's a lot going on behind the scenes that

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Speaker 1: Bobby didn't know about. And when the deal was made

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Speaker 1: for the band to go on this tour, the State

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Speaker 1: Department received a certain amount of control over this film

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Speaker 1: that was being shot. Bobby thinks he had control, but

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Speaker 1: the truth is the State Department had the control. And

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Speaker 1: we saw in memos all the way through the tour

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Speaker 1: itself that the people on the ground from the State

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Speaker 1: Department were very concerned about things that the cameras had

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Speaker 1: captured that they might somehow affect the relationships that they

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Speaker 1: were trying to develop with those three governments. So that

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Speaker 1: was a concern almost all the way through. They did

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Speaker 1: see a two and a half hour cut of the

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Speaker 1: documentary and they had problems with it, and they said,

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Speaker 1: but we've given notes and we're hoping to fix this.

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Speaker 1: And then the next thing we see is that that

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Speaker 1: two hour version that was meant for theaters in the

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Speaker 1: US and internationally disappeared, and somehow a sixty minute version

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Speaker 1: was made with some notion of selling it to television,

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Speaker 1: and that never happened either, and then the company that

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Speaker 1: made that funded the documentary went belly up at the

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Speaker 1: end of nineteen seventy. The post production house where all

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Speaker 1: the editing was happening went belly up in nineteen seventy one.

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Speaker 1: So essentially we're fifty two years on and nobody knows

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Speaker 1: knew where this film was. Okay, a couple of questions before, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: who paid for the film and how much did it cost?

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Speaker 1: Fifty years ago? Yeah, it was a company called National

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Speaker 1: General Productions. They had done some films. They had some

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Speaker 1: sort of deal with Warner Brothers to make features. One

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Speaker 1: of their top features was Chero, not the Entertainer, but

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Speaker 1: the the Elvis Presley movie, and the whole thing seems

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Speaker 1: to have cost somewhere under seventy five thousand dollars. They

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Speaker 1: sent a whole crew over. They shot sixty five hours

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Speaker 1: of material. The band brought along a portable a track,

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Speaker 1: not the kind people used to have in their cars,

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Speaker 1: but a portable studio thing, and they recorded all the

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Speaker 1: concerts and in the fifty years since these had all disappeared. Okay,

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Speaker 1: just before you get into finding them, you're talking about

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Speaker 1: the State Department documents. How did you get those? Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry to interrupt everyone. For just for anyone who's listening,

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Speaker 1: the story begins with our singers. Canadian not as a

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Speaker 1: band unified concept, but we all, everyone in the band

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Speaker 1: hated the war in Vietnam, couldn't stand what was going

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Speaker 1: on with Nixon. And this is not something we planned individually.

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Speaker 1: And as the band got bigger and bigger, we would

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Speaker 1: have Mike's under our chins every once in a while

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Speaker 1: and someone would say, how do you feel so David?

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Speaker 1: Being a Canadian, as all of us felt, this war

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Speaker 1: in Vietnam is horrible, we shouldn't be in it, and

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Speaker 1: Nixon's dodgy. I mean, we all had that opinion. But somewhere,

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Speaker 1: somehow someone got wind of this, and I can't If

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Speaker 1: you're into conspiracy, you can come up with ten thousand

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Speaker 1: ways of looking at this. My feeling was that some

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Speaker 1: extreme right wing congressman said, who is this Canadian thing?

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Speaker 1: He is? They investigate and find out he had a

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Speaker 1: jail record in Canada, then they pull his green card.

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Speaker 1: We have gigantic hit records, singles, everything going, and we

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Speaker 1: can no longer play in the United States. Lo and

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Speaker 1: behold State Department, either through our manager, he contacted them

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Speaker 1: or they contacted him. John probably knows more about this

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Speaker 1: than I do, but at that point we had to

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Speaker 1: do something to get his green card back. So a

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Speaker 1: quid pro quo, we'll get you the green card, but

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Speaker 1: you got to go to Eastern Europe and play behind

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Speaker 1: the Iron curtain. So that's kind of I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: added that in Yeah, but another set of film, the

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Speaker 1: manager is a new manager and he's not described positively.

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Speaker 1: How would you find that guy? And was he good,

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Speaker 1: bad or otherwise? He was, Okay, that's a great question. Actually,

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Speaker 1: because our attorney at the time was someone who lived

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Speaker 1: out here. We were all in the East Coast in

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Speaker 1: New York and this attorney, Lee Colton, super nice man.

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Speaker 1: We're looking for a new manager. And he said, there's

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Speaker 1: a guy. He's just smart, knows the business. His brother

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Speaker 1: works for the Beach. But I don't know all this detail,

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Speaker 1: but he said he's so, he's so clever, he'd be great.

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Speaker 1: And I said, okay, can I talk to him? Well,

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Speaker 1: he's just getting out of jail. I thought, you can't

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Speaker 1: beat that punchline. I said, okay, okay, there's gonna be

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Speaker 1: something coming. He said, no, he's getting out of jail.

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Speaker 1: He's in Geno prison. Well, I said, okay. Well, as

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Speaker 1: you see in the movie, my comment was sounds like

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Speaker 1: he'd be perfect for us. And he was clever as

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Speaker 1: can be. He got endorsements with Pioneer Electronics. He was

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Speaker 1: he really was something else, I mean, and and he

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Speaker 1: was wonderful. But I had a feeling because he had

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Speaker 1: had written bad checks before and he had been in

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Speaker 1: trouble before that there was a high likelihood that he

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Speaker 1: would try something with us. So I just told our

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Speaker 1: account and just be really careful. This guy, I like him.

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Speaker 1: I hope everything works out, but be careful. And sure

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Speaker 1: enough he caught him doing something and that was the

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Speaker 1: end of it. But he lasted with us for a while.

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Speaker 1: But he was terrific. Actually, he was a great man.

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Speaker 1: And what he did was he was being proactive as

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Speaker 1: a manager as he would be. And he said, we

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Speaker 1: got this problem here with our singer. I've got to

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Speaker 1: do something. To go back to your question, is we'll

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Speaker 1: take us here usually what the State Department does is

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Speaker 1: they hand over their files to the National Archive, and

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Speaker 1: they had been there for a while, and somewhere in

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Speaker 1: the eighties there was just too much and they were

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Speaker 1: going to toss a bunch of it. And William Fulbright,

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Speaker 1: who was a congressman from Arkansas, had a real interest

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Speaker 1: in the Cultural Exchange Program, which was the department that

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Speaker 1: sponsored the Blood Switt and Tears tour, and he said,

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Speaker 1: I'll take those files. So all of the files from

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Speaker 1: the Cultural Presentations program ended up at the University of Arkansas.

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Speaker 1: Very few people know they're there. One of our researchers

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Speaker 1: just sort of bumped into it quite by accident, but

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Speaker 1: they're all there. And we got access to all the

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Speaker 1: documents pertaining to the Blood Switt and Tears tour, which

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Speaker 1: no one had seen in forty or fifty years. And

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Speaker 1: what we learned is that there was communication between Larry Goldblatt,

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Speaker 1: the manager, and the State Department. What's not clear, and

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Speaker 1: we don't have any documents to tell us this we

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Speaker 1: surmise based on circumstantial evidence, but that Larry was somehow

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Speaker 1: proactive and got to somebody at the State Department and

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Speaker 1: they had a conversation, and there was this notion that

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Speaker 1: this would be a win win for both sides. The

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Speaker 1: band takes care of their immigration problem for the lead singer,

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Speaker 1: no more problems there, and with the State Department and

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Speaker 1: the Nixon administration gets is the hottest, one of the

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Speaker 1: hottest bands going on a tour for them, sponsored by

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Speaker 1: the State Department, to try to reach out to these

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Speaker 1: three governments that the State Department had identified as being

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Speaker 1: possible partners, so that they could maybe break that The

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Speaker 1: leaders were independent enough of the Russians that they felt

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Speaker 1: that we could establish a relationship with them and therefore

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Speaker 1: perhaps pull them a little bit out of the Russian orbit.

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Speaker 1: And that was the notion of the State Department, So

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Speaker 1: it was kind of a win win for both. What

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Speaker 1: we don't exactly know Bobby touched on this before is

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Speaker 1: did Larry suggest the quit proco or did the State

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Speaker 1: Department suggest the quit proco. We don't really know that.

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Speaker 1: What we do know from the internal documents is that

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Speaker 1: as early as November of sixty nine this deal had

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Speaker 1: been arranged and then they announced it in January of seventy. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's start with the making of the film. Then we'll

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Speaker 1: go to the content of the film. So you go

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Speaker 1: for this meeting with Bobby. Bobby tells you this crazy story.

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Speaker 1: Then what happens. The first thing when I'm deciding if

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Speaker 1: I want to do a documentary or not, is, Hey,

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Speaker 1: what's the story? Is the story compelling enough, strong enough

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Speaker 1: that it can be a feature documentary as opposed to

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Speaker 1: just an hour on Discovery or the History Channel. This

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Speaker 1: story was so compelling and like the best of a

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Speaker 1: spy novel, so I thought, yeah, this is just great.

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Speaker 1: But the second question, Bob, is is there enough in

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Speaker 1: the way of audio visual assets that we can tell

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Speaker 1: this story properly? What's out there? Bobby mentions this sixty

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Speaker 1: five hours, and my ears like go up, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: whoa excuse me? We gotta fight. So I put my

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Speaker 1: researchers on this, and I think, had we not found

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Speaker 1: this sixty minute version, we would probably not be here

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Speaker 1: talking today. We would not have been able to make

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Speaker 1: the film. But we did find it, and that's the

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Speaker 1: foundation of the film itself, all of this film that

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Speaker 1: was shot on the tour. Okay, did you guys have

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Speaker 1: a pre existing relationship or did Bobby someone say you

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Speaker 1: got to talk to this guy. We're both married. First

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Speaker 1: of all, let me make that clear. No, No, we

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Speaker 1: have a friend, a mutual friend, that invited me to

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Speaker 1: a screening of a terrific I think early stages of

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Speaker 1: a documentary that John had done is called Chasing Train

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Speaker 1: about John Coltrane. And I'm a big jazz fan, and

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Speaker 1: I grew up in a family of jazz fans and

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Speaker 1: managers and friends of you know, I was lucky enough

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Speaker 1: to I have two older brothers, much older than me.

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Speaker 1: They both have passed, but the oldest was a trumpet

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Speaker 1: player who's very close with Miles Davis. They were, you know,

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Speaker 1: good friends. My other brother managed Monk Velonious Monk for

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Speaker 1: fourteen years. So as a little kid, I had Bach

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Speaker 1: and Beethoven in my living room basically. So that's the

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Speaker 1: movie I grew up, I should that's the music that

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Speaker 1: I grew up hearing. So when I heard about this

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Speaker 1: film about Train, about John Coltrane, I thought, there's nothing

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Speaker 1: on Coltrane. I haven't seen anything on John Coltrane. He was,

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Speaker 1: you know, not a big interview and he was not

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Speaker 1: someone that was seen all the time. And I'm and

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Speaker 1: I was, actually I was astonished when I saw this

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Speaker 1: because it was so well well done and there wasn't

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Speaker 1: that much to go with, and John pulled it off.

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Speaker 1: So so we had met around that time, and then

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Speaker 1: we emailed once in a while, but we weren't close

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Speaker 1: friends or anything. And then when he called me to

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Speaker 1: have this lunch, that was really the first time we

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Speaker 1: had a super in depth conversation. And now we talked

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Speaker 1: like three or four times a day. So, okay, John,

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Speaker 1: you talked about all these assets, you were excited about

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Speaker 1: the project. Yeah. How many times do people pitch you?

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Speaker 1: How often and you can only come up to bat

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Speaker 1: a certain number of times? Yeah, that's a really good question.

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Speaker 1: It's a couple of things. I do get pitched quite

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Speaker 1: a bit. This person, that person. You know, I've done

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Speaker 1: a lot of music things, so I do get pitched

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Speaker 1: those a lot. But for me, it's always do I

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Speaker 1: have a passion for the artist to I have a

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Speaker 1: passion for their work? Is this someone I would want

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Speaker 1: to spend you know, a year, year and a half with,

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Speaker 1: because that's what the amount of time it takes to

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Speaker 1: make a documentary, So I can get past that, then

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Speaker 1: it's okay. If I love that artist, I love, here's

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Speaker 1: a great story, then do we have the stuff to

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Speaker 1: tell it? And then we're sort of often running. But

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Speaker 1: I've been really, you know, blessed of I've been working

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Speaker 1: really regularly for a long long time. Do you only

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Speaker 1: make one movie at one time, or do you have

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Speaker 1: simultaneous productions simultaneous I will stagger them a bit, so

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Speaker 1: they're not exactly on the same schedule. So at the moment,

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Speaker 1: for example, we've finished this one and we're promoting it

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Speaker 1: now for theatrical I just finished a fine cut for

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Speaker 1: a new one that we delivered to the streaming service

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Speaker 1: last week, and I'm in production on another one now,

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Speaker 1: with another one kind of coming behind it. So I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, Bob, it's the freelancers nightmare that you know,

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Speaker 1: if you don't take a job somehow, you're never going

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Speaker 1: to work again. But as I say, I'm really lucky.

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Speaker 1: These things do present themselves, and so I usually have two,

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Speaker 1: occasionally three that are going at the same time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what was the budget for this film and where did

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Speaker 1: the money come from? I can't really say what the

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Speaker 1: budget is. It's a very healthy budget for a documentary.

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Speaker 1: We got it from an independent source. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: interesting doing documentaries. You can do it one of several ways.

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Speaker 1: You can kind of be Willie Lohman and you're out there,

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Speaker 1: you know, carting your ideas around in your briefcase, trying

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Speaker 1: to sell them to a streaming service or a network

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Speaker 1: or a studio, and that sometimes is the best way

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Speaker 1: to go. But other times you go out and you

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Speaker 1: try to find independent financing so that I can make

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Speaker 1: the film I want to make without any interference from

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Speaker 1: a networker a studio, and then armed with a finished product,

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Speaker 1: we can say, look here it is. You don't have

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Speaker 1: to guess what it is now you can look at it.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, we had independent financing that actually

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Speaker 1: came through Bobby, So why don't you tell him about that?

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Speaker 1: So this is wild. If you've seen the Michael Jordan piece,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people comment that he paid for it,

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Speaker 1: so obviously there's going to be nothing negative in there.

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Speaker 1: So I asked John, what do you think this is

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Speaker 1: going to cost? And he told me, And I'm not

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Speaker 1: a rich guy, but I said I could figure out

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Speaker 1: a way, and he said, and then we both kind

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Speaker 1: of simultaneously said, you know what if I come up

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Speaker 1: with the money. It's not you know, like yeah, like

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Speaker 1: if I have pimples, show them. I mean, that's just

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Speaker 1: that's just the way it is. So I'm, you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously fine with that. Maybe a week later. I'm a

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Speaker 1: very lucky person. I have to admit this. And I

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Speaker 1: have crazy coincidences throughout my life. I get a phone call.

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Speaker 1: My office calls and says, listen, there's a guy that

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Speaker 1: owns a drum shop in Seattle and he needs to

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Speaker 1: speak to you, but I don't want to give him

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Speaker 1: your number. And this came from a club owner in

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Speaker 1: Seattle who's a friend. So I said, that's okay, just

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Speaker 1: you know, let me have his number and I'll call him.

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Speaker 1: It's cool. So I called the guy up. I said,

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Speaker 1: how you doing this? Bobby Columby said, oh man, thanks

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Speaker 1: for colin um Listen, I've got a guy that's just

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Speaker 1: a big fan of yours and he wants to buy

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Speaker 1: memory of yeah, anything you want, you know, like he's

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Speaker 1: into it. And I said, well, I'll talk to him.

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Speaker 1: Just get him on the line. Here's a number you

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Speaker 1: can call. When you get him on the line, we'll

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Speaker 1: all talk. Calls Bobby, I want to introduce you to

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Speaker 1: James Bryant, and I hear, oh my god, it's Bobby Columbia.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe it. And I go, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: it's James Bryan. Oh my god. And we start laughing.

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Speaker 1: And he said, listen, I'm such a fan of the

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Speaker 1: band and I loved the drums and blah blah, and

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Speaker 1: he goes on and I said, James, I need your address.

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Speaker 1: He said, what do you mean. I said, just give

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Speaker 1: me your address. He said, well, I don't understand. I

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Speaker 1: want to buy some memorabili. I said, I heard you, James. James,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you a question. What do you do.

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Speaker 1: I'm a lawyer. I said, okay, give me a address. No, no,

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Speaker 1: I want to buy. I said, James, you're not a

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Speaker 1: good Negotia give me your goddamn address. He says okay,

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Speaker 1: and I get it. And he said I want to buy.

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Speaker 1: I said, I'm not. I don't sell stuff. That's not

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Speaker 1: what I'm interested in doing. I'll send you something. So, James,

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Speaker 1: what do you do? He said, Well, I used to

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Speaker 1: be a sports agent. Well who did you represent? Well,

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Speaker 1: Nick van Exel, but you never heard of him. I said,

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Speaker 1: I was at the NCAA quarterfinals when he scored thirty

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Speaker 1: two points for Cincinnati in the first half, and I'm

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Speaker 1: like rattling off, I'm a basketball freak. He goes, Oh

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Speaker 1: my god. He gets more into it. He goes, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is great. And here's the punchline. So James, what

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Speaker 1: do you do now? I finance films, And of course

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Speaker 1: I go, I'm gonna give you a phone number. I

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Speaker 1: have a feeling. But there's one caveat this is what

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Speaker 1: you can't get in the way. I said. Creative people

360
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Speaker 1: need to be left alone so they can see their

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Speaker 1: vision through. So whatever you're gonna do, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: introduce you to someone. I think this is right up

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Speaker 1: your alley. And I don't know how long it took

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Speaker 1: to be financed, but I'm gonna I'm gonna guess five

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Speaker 1: minutes or something. John. You know, Bob, it was the

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Speaker 1: as an independent. Actually, what I should say is when

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Speaker 1: you go to film school, they don't tell you that

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Speaker 1: the hardest part of your job is going to be

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Speaker 1: getting money. I call it the kneepad tour, where you

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Speaker 1: get down on your knees and you have to beg

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Speaker 1: somebody to give you money for your your projects. But

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Speaker 1: This was one of the easiest I've ever had. He

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Speaker 1: loved the band. When I told him the story and

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Speaker 1: I told him my vision for the film, he just said, Uh,

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Speaker 1: let's go. That's great. The lawyers talked about ten days

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Speaker 1: later we were done and off and running. Did he

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Speaker 1: personally finance it or does he have a syndicate? No,

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00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,679
Speaker 1: he personally financed it. Okay, let's go back to your

379
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Speaker 1: earlier thing. The inspiration for actually push the button? You

380
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Speaker 1: want his phone number? Is that where you're going? Not

381
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Speaker 1: today anyway. But you said that you saw a sixty

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Speaker 1: minute production. The question is did you ever find the footage? No,

383
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Speaker 1: we never found the raw footage, and we suggest in

384
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Speaker 1: the film why that is what we did find that

385
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Speaker 1: We cast a very wide net. We talked to people

386
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Speaker 1: that were involved with that documentary. There weren't many left,

387
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: but I thought, you know, those two companies going bankrupt,

388
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Speaker 1: that maybe the footage was just left in storage somewhere

389
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Speaker 1: here in LA So we looked at every independent storage facility.

390
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Speaker 1: We looked at Technicolor, we looked at Deluxe, we looked

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Speaker 1: at all of these places. We looked at labs and

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Speaker 1: storage facilities in New York. We looked at government facilities

393
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Speaker 1: in Washington, DC and Virginia. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. So

394
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Speaker 1: I was I was beginning to think, you know, we

395
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Speaker 1: weren't going to be able to make this film. And

396
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Speaker 1: then one day I got a call from a woman

397
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Speaker 1: that ran a vault that we had approached, and she

398
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Speaker 1: said her database had nothing. So we just sort of

399
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: went on to the next one and and I and

400
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 1: she called me, she said, you know something, this was

401
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: COVID time. She was home, stuck at home. She had

402
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: a loose leaf notebook that she had found with old

403
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 1: stuff in the vault and with loose leaf pages, and

404
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: she went through and she found some vague reference to

405
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Speaker 1: something about blood, sweat and tears. So she next time

406
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Speaker 1: she was in the vault, she went to look at

407
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Speaker 1: it and it was in a far corner of the vault,

408
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: and everything in this corner there was a sign there

409
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Speaker 1: marked for destruction. So, Bob, did we get there at

410
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Speaker 1: the right time or not. Anyway, what she found was

411
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Speaker 1: two pristine prints of this sixty minute version that never

412
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: got broadcast, and we got them, looked at them and

413
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Speaker 1: it was like, wow, now we can make this movie.

414
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Speaker 1: Because it was a great cross section of this tour.

415
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Speaker 1: So we did a new HD transfer of this material

416
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Speaker 1: and we were off and running. Okay, Bobby, let's talk

417
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Speaker 1: a little bit about you and blood, sweat and tears.

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Speaker 1: You grow up? Where and how do you start playing drums? Okay? Um, Okay.

419
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Speaker 1: If this gets boring, just wave your arms and I'll

420
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Speaker 1: just say I would. Okay, Okay. So I grew up,

421
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: as I told you, in a family of two much

422
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: older brothers, and they're listening to jazz morning, noon and night.

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Speaker 1: That's the That's the only music I heard except for

424
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: procaffee if who I loved and some classical stuff didn't.

425
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: Did never listen to pop music. I always thought when

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Speaker 1: I would hear it, I would just laugh and say,

427
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: how could anyone listen to this? Because in those days

428
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: was dan at that, dan At that, dann than yan

429
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: At that that that that, that was it. And as

430
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: as as a kid watching everything going on, because I

431
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: was much younger, we had a little piano in our

432
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 1: living room and when they would play music, there'd be

433
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: an album jacket on the piano and a pair of brushes.

434
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: And when someone was playing the piano or doing anything,

435
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: another person who was in the room would start to

436
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: play time and I would watch that and it just

437
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: was fascinated. And then I heard one This is a

438
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: little bit inside baseball, but I was I heard one

439
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: piece of music. Tad Dameron, an arranger, wonderful arranger, had

440
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: a song called Philly j J. And it was a

441
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: piece featuring the trumpet player the greatest, Clifford Brown. Was unbelievable.

442
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: And it was just one piece of musical called Philly JJ.

443
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: And I was eleven, maybe I was fixated on it.

444
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: And I heard this drumming because it featured a guy

445
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: named Philly Joe Jones, and I was fixated. And I

446
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: put together, I don't know a lamp, and that was

447
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: my symbol, a marching snare I bought at an Army

448
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: Navy store with a jacket over it. I lived in

449
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: an apartment in Manhattan, up way uptown and disturbing everybody.

450
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 1: I'm banging on stuff. There was a game, a game

451
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: with like a backcam and birdie and these two little

452
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 1: round things that you would bang back and forth. And

453
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: I hooked them up to a standing ashtray and that

454
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: was my drum set. And I'm trying to play this

455
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: piece of music. What I didn't know, and I know.

456
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: I knew later on it's maybe the hardest thing you

457
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: can play on that instrument. It's unbelievably difficult. But no

458
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: one said you can't do this. I had no idea

459
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: what I was doing. I was playing ass backwards in

460
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: my hands were like weird, and I was banging on

461
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: the side and I just kept doing it hours and hours.

462
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: And one day one of my brothers, I think, Jules,

463
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: the older one, you know, here's me, and then he

464
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: invites a friend. He said, you gotta hear this, and

465
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 1: this little eleven year olds banging away, but he's trying

466
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: to play like Philly Joe Jones and this piece was difficult.

467
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: And that was my drum lesson. And then I started

468
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: playing along with everything. And on January the twentieth, nineteen sixty,

469
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: my brother and I remember, I was on the toilet.

470
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: He says, I got a drum set for you, and

471
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: I ran out of the toilet with my underwear on

472
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,479
Speaker 1: my angles like a Seinfeld episode, and went flying and

473
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: there's Max Roach's old drum set, eighteen inch bass drum,

474
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: handmade first one Sparkle Silva gretch set and that was it.

475
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: And that was my first that was a drum set.

476
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: I didn't have symbols yet, but that's how I started playing. Okay,

477
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: to have such a creative family. What'd your parents do

478
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: for a living? What was their story? Well, I love

479
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: this guy. It's the greatest questions. My father was born

480
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty nine. My grandfather paternal was born ten

481
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: years before the assassination of Lincoln. So and my mother

482
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: played piano. And my father, whose name I guess there

483
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: was Fred golub And because I saw like a thing

484
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: of his like a cpia. He's an opera singer. He

485
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: sang with Caruso So when I was growing up, Well,

486
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: he died when I was three, But we had this

487
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: a recording device. It looked like a big suitcase with

488
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: one mic, and they would make discs on it and

489
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: my mom would pay piano and my father would sing. Okay,

490
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: you are playing drums basically jazz oriented. Two questions for

491
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: most people. Was a huge turning point when the Beatles

492
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: came on the scene and beginning A sixty four, So

493
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: you were a jazz er? Was that a turning point

494
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: for you and a lot of people who were fans

495
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: of the Beatles in British invasion that caused them to

496
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: play in bands. So after you got this drum set,

497
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: were you just playing alone? Were you playing in groups?

498
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: What kind of music? I love them? Okay, here we go.

499
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: Here's the here's the answer. This is a little bit.

500
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: If anyone's eating, stop eating for a second. So I

501
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: got a call from some guy that's going to the

502
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: high School for Music and Art. I'm I guess I'm

503
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: fifteen at this point. I don't have symbols yet. I

504
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: just have this like basic drum. I don't know how

505
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: to use my feet yet we're playing drums. I got

506
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: a call from this guy Fred, Hey, Bob, and you

507
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: got your drums? I said, yeah, I just got a

508
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: drum set. Good. We have a gig. So what we

509
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: have a job NYU Fraternity Alpha something something at the

510
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: Broadway Central Hotel and let's go. And we had a gig.

511
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: I never thought even to get paid for doing this.

512
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: I thought I'd have to pay. I said, sure, fifteen

513
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: years old, I get all dressed up, I get my

514
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: little drum set down to this place. I borrowed twenty

515
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: bucks from my friend Harold's I could buy a symbol,

516
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: and now I have a symbol. No high hat yet. No,

517
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: I don't know how to use a bass drum pedal yet,

518
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: but I got this drum set. It's a big band

519
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: and they're playing things like Daddy Day. And I'd heard

520
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: so much music as a kid. I knew almost everything

521
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: that was out there, so I stopped playing along. Fred's

522
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: the bass player. He's standing over me, smiling, and I'm

523
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: playing Daddy Yadia and just smiling, and then he vomits

524
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: on my shoulder, so I so I look up and

525
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: he's but he's not vomiting in a in a position

526
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: to vie. He's smiling and vomiting. And I look up

527
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: and I feel this and I go, Fred, stop, stop,

528
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: and he's just drunk. And that's my first gig. And

529
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: I'm figuring, if there is a god, he's telling me,

530
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: do not do this for a living. Whatever, Well, how

531
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: ever your life turns out, don't do this for a living.

532
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: So that was my first gig. And then I eventually

533
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: learned how to use my feet and I act. And

534
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: I can't get into this, but this is the wildest

535
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: part of this, which is going to pull us so

536
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: far away from this conversation. I had inadvertently met someone who.

537
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: I was in a hotel room. He was talking about

538
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: doing a US version of The Beatles, and he plays

539
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: me an ascetate, What do you think of this? I said,

540
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: it's it's amazing, actually, and I was shocked at how

541
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: good it was. Soa who is it? He goes, Oh,

542
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: it's the boys the Beatles, I said, he said, I

543
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: think he said something like I don't think we're gonna

544
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: put this out, You're crazy. It was Brian Epstein and

545
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: he's playing me an ascetate of a day in the

546
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: life a year before it comes out. I don't tell you.

547
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: My friends, yeah I heard this beetle thing and they're going, yeah,

548
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: he's not full of shit? Oh really? And I'm saying

549
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: no in the middle of goes, wake up, got out

550
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: of bed, get a comb because something like that, and

551
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: they all thing, I'm nuts until it comes out. Okay,

552
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: have that one giga where the guy vomits on you?

553
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: Now do you continue to play with bands? And what

554
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: happens when the Beatles do a rock Okay? So I

555
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: have your own career, all right? So I have two

556
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: completely different sets of friends. Are these one of these

557
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: young jazz musicians and older jazz musicians, and I become

558
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: competent enough where I can play with these people, play

559
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: jazz gigs not a lot, and we have jam sessions

560
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: obviously in New York, roll over the place. The other

561
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: thing was I like these pop, like these rock kids

562
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: that I knew, and they would play at temple dances

563
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: and schools and on weekends and they worked. But that

564
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: was I was in college, so I would I would

565
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: do the weekend gigs and I would hear all these

566
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: you know songs, and they were Beatle fanatics, so I

567
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: would hear all the Beatles songs that way, and we

568
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: do you know, rock stuff. And then I had another

569
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: friend who lived in my building who played Oregon, a

570
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: guy named Mike Matthews. And he forms a little band

571
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: and we go away in the summer and it's a

572
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: blues band and we're just playing before I had heard

573
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: anything about any blues bands other than authentic blues bands.

574
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: And we're out in the Hampton's playing and so I I,

575
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: you know, like I had a nice mix of music,

576
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: but I had two sets, you know, they were very

577
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: very separate sets of friends. So where did you go

578
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: to college? And did you finish City College finished? And

579
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: then I went to the same school in graduate school

580
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: for a degree in psychology. Did you finish that? No?

581
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: One day, I'm in advanced interviewing techniques as a woman,

582
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: and I had to go to night school because I

583
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: was playing already with people, so I had to sleep.

584
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: So I'm watching this and I'm imagining myself at five

585
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: years old, realizing that other than like the Lowden code

586
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: and the hat with the ear flaps, I was doing

587
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: exactly the same thing. I was going to school and

588
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: September and I was off in June. But I was

589
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: already twenty two, and I just panicked. I said, I

590
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: got up, left my books and just started hanging out

591
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: with my friends in the West Village. Okay, let's switch

592
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: to you, John, How do you end up becoming a filmmaker?

593
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: You know, I blamed Bobby for this film. I blame

594
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: my parents for my career. They and I grew up

595
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: in the Midwest. Born in Chicago, raised in Milwaukee, very

596
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: far away from Hollywood. My parents took me to a

597
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: revival of Lawrence of Arabia. It's the first movie I

598
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: ever saw. And I'm sitting in the Fox Bay Theater

599
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, looking up at the screen and just

600
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: with my mouth open, I couldn't believe this whole experience,

601
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: the writing, the directing, the production, everything about it was

602
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: fantastic and is about eleven at the time, and I

603
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: remember saying to my parents, that's what I wanted to do,

604
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: and as I yeah, yeah, sure, because when you're in Milwaukee,

605
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, Hollywood is very far away, and we don't

606
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: make it there very often. In fact, if I had

607
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: a dollar, Bob, for every person that said, you know,

608
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: a lot of people want to get the competition is fierce,

609
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: You're never gonna make it. If I had a dollar

610
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: for everybody who said that to me, I would not

611
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: have had to come out here. I would have been

612
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: so rich. But so anyway, I went to undergraduated Oberlin,

613
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: and I went to film school at Northwestern and then

614
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: I decided it was time to come out here. And

615
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: I didn't know it well put, you know, because the

616
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 1: movies went through great transition. What games are we talking about?

617
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 1: This would be late sixties, Okay, so this is when

618
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: the tours start to appear. On the scene where you

619
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: inspired by that, you know, you talk about Lawrence the

620
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: rebew But what other films are your inspirations to continue

621
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: down this path. I was not into super popular films.

622
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: Another early film I saw was an Elvis film, which

623
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: was just dreadful, and I just remember, oh God, I

624
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: don't think I want to do that. But I was

625
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: really very much influenced by the classics. Love Casablanca, Loved

626
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: Maltese Falcon, Love Gone with the Wind, all of that

627
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: sort of stuff. Great storytelling, and I think that's really

628
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: what got me into this business, was I wanted to

629
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: be a storyteller. And on top of the movies, I'm

630
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: going to throw one other thing at you. When I

631
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: was about ten, I had bought a Superman comic book,

632
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: and at the back of the comic book, for a dollar,

633
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: if you send it into this place, they would send

634
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 1: you a real to real tape of radio drama shows

635
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: the Lone Ranger on one side and the Shadow on

636
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: the other side, And so I sent that in. I

637
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 1: had no idea what a radio show was other than

638
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 1: my local DJ, and I got this thing. I just

639
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: was captivated. It was telling a story with actors and

640
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: sound effects and music, and all of this just blew

641
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 1: me away. And so I started collecting tapes of old

642
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: radio shows. Drama, comedy, Jack Benny, you name it, and

643
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: all of this kind of went into my head. But

644
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: mostly it was all about telling stories, and that's what

645
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: interested me more than the filmmakers themselves. So I went

646
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: to filmmaking school at Northwestern and I still remember this

647
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 1: to this day. First day, first class, we looked at

648
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: Busby Berkeley's forty second Street. We're watching the film and

649
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: it's over and we start to talk about it, and

650
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: there's I could still see him to this day. There's

651
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: this red headed kid in the back of the class

652
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: who said, you know, on one level, Ruby Keeler's tap

653
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: dancing was interesting, but you know, on a deeper, more

654
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: metaphorical level, she is a representative of a depressed era America,

655
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: pounding out, tapping out, if you will, their frustrations with

656
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: an economic And I'm looking around at him and I

657
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: wanted to say, she's tap dancing and she's not that great,

658
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: And the teacher says, very good, excellent, anybody else and

659
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: we got into this whole sort of intellectual conversation that

660
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: I sort of decided this was not for me. I

661
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: wanted to make movies. I wanted to tell stories. It

662
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: wasn't about analyzing things. So I sort of went off

663
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 1: on my own, and I think that kind of explains

664
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: a lot about me. I'm a very independent soul and

665
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: have kind of carved out my own little niche here.

666
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: But what I did was, when I was finally ready

667
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,959
Speaker 1: to come out to California after graduate school, I didn't

668
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: know a soul, so I put together a very flamboyant resume,

669
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 1: and no one had ever seen anything like. In fact,

670
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: I got written up in a book on how to

671
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: get a job in Hollywood, and I sent it out

672
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: to fifty studios, networks producers, and I said, I'm coming

673
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: to California two months. We'd love to have an opportunity

674
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: to interview with you. And out of the fifty, I

675
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: got twenty responses, which is great. Twelve said now, sorry,

676
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: you're not interested, but eight said come and see us.

677
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: They were really struggle by stop stop. Yeah, what was

678
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: so magical about this? Because amazing statistics. Um this was

679
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: in pre computer days. I put together what looked like

680
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: a reprint of a People magazine article. It was me

681
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 1: on the cover. You know, I stole the typeface People,

682
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: and it was direct from the Midwest, John Scheinfeld. And

683
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: you opened it up and in the in the breezy,

684
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: gossipy style of People magazine. It was my life story

685
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: to that point. And if they didn't read it, and

686
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure that they were going to, I peppered

687
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 1: it with pictures from my life with one line caption

688
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: so they could still get the whole story. And um,

689
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: so it wasn't the resume format we all learned in

690
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: school of how to get a job. And so my

691
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: first interview was a paramout. I got out here on

692
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: a Sunday and on Tuesday, I had an interview at Paramount.

693
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: Just be specific, because you have some great memory. What

694
00:39:54,120 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: years This was nineteen eighty one, okay, and U Gary

695
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: Nardino was the president of Paramount Television at the time.

696
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: He had seen this resume wanted to meet me. So

697
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: I went in, had a meeting that was on Tuesday.

698
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,919
Speaker 1: By Friday, they offered me a job. I didn't even

699
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: have to go to any of these other interviews. Was like,

700
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: Paramount was like right there. So they paid for me

701
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: and my wife newlyweds to come out at the time,

702
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: and I started as a TV development executive And well wait, wait,

703
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: slow down a little bit. Yeah, what did your parents

704
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: do for a living. Oh nice of you to ask.

705
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 1: My father was a businessman, worked for He ran the

706
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: international part of a business called Manpower. It was a

707
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: temporary help service and he ran all the foreign offices.

708
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: The headquarters was in Milwaukee, which is why we're there.

709
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: My mom was a housewife, but actually she's the one

710
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: who's responsible for me loving music as much as I do.

711
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: She always had music playing around the house, and not

712
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: just Frank's, not her Nat King Cole, which was her generation,

713
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,919
Speaker 1: but she loved a lot of the contemporary artists, and

714
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 1: she'd loved, for example, Herb Albert, she loved Sergio Mendez.

715
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: So I ended up making films about which was just

716
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: great but had nothing to do with show business. And

717
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: I think, I think Bob Bay they didn't. I think

718
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: they ever quite understood what I did. I did a

719
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: project in the early two thousands. I was working with

720
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: the Frank Sinatra family and my dad, I think he

721
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: really wanted to be a good dad. One day and

722
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: he said, so, how did you spend your day to day?

723
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand what it is you do. Tell

724
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: me what you did today? And I said, well, I

725
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: looked at five hours of Frank Sinatra TV shows from

726
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties and there's this dead silence on the

727
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: other end of the phone, and my dad finally says,

728
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: and they pay you for this. It's like you know anyway.

729
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: So they were very but they were really supportive. It's like,

730
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: whatever you want to do, it will support you whatever

731
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: you want to do. And so I had that luxury

732
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: growing up, and I think again it contributed to to

733
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: my being very independent. I want to do what I

734
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 1: want to do and things that will make me proud. Okay,

735
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: you're a nice Jewish boy. Your parents usually want you

736
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: to be a doctor or lawyer. Were they supportive? I mean,

737
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: did ay? Did they pay for your education? And b

738
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: when it ended all of a sudden, you're married, you

739
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: have expenses and what was going on there economically? Yes,

740
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: they paid for graduate school, they paid for college and

741
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: it was gout in the world and make us proud.

742
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 1: And as I said, they never quite understood how show

743
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: business worked because that wasn't their frame of reference. But

744
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: they couldn't have been more supportive through throughout my dad's

745
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: past now and my mom too, but they couldn't have

746
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: been more supportive up to the day they died. Well,

747
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: what about getting married and are you still married to

748
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 1: that same person? You immediately, you know, put an economic

749
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: stone on your career. No, we are no longer married.

750
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: We were married. We were married for fourteen years. Lovely

751
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: women were still friends today, but we just got married

752
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 1: way too young and went off in different directions and

753
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: had different interests. She's terrific, But yeah, you sort of

754
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: put that on. But you know, it's just I think

755
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: if you it's really interesting. People talk to me a

756
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: lot about jobs, and they're kind of what if I

757
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: go here, What if I go here? What if I

758
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 1: go here? I was always I want to go there.

759
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: I want to be over there. I want to be

760
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: making my own things. That's what I want to do.

761
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: And so I was always very directed towards getting there.

762
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: And it didn't sort of matter what the economic things were.

763
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: It was just I always sort of found a way

764
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: to do it. And you know, I was at Paramount,

765
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: that was my first job, and so I had a

766
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: decent salary. And then I got hired away by MTM

767
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: Mary Chila Moore Productions, and then I got hired away

768
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: by Embassy, which was Norman Lear's company. So I had

769
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: really good pedigree where I learned from the best people

770
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: of how to do quality work. And to this day

771
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: I remember lessons that I got. Stephen Botchko from Hill

772
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: Street Blues was a guy that I learned from and

773
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: he was very arrogant guy, very difficult guy. I liked

774
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: him a lot. And he said to me, you know,

775
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: I will take an idea from the Xerox kid if

776
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: it makes the show better. And that was a big lesson,

777
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: you know, as opposed to no, no, it has to

778
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: be me. I have to have all the idea. I know.

779
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: That's not how I am. It's just like, whatever's going

780
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: to make the film better, that's what you got to do.

781
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 1: So it's always been a series of steps of sort

782
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,439
Speaker 1: of getting to where I wanted to be. I thought

783
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: it was going to be scripted things, whether it was

784
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: television or film, and then I discovered documentaries and I

785
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: loved the form, and so the scripted stuff sort of

786
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 1: faded off to the side, and for the last twenty

787
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: three years I've been doing documentaries and loving it. So

788
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: what was the job that you had was an embassy

789
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: where you segued into documentaries? What was the what were

790
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: you doing just before where you made that switch. Yeah,

791
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: well I am. I had been at Embassy, but then

792
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: I went off. I didn't see much future for a

793
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: producer that didn't write, so I took about two years

794
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 1: off and I wrote and I wrote, and I wrote

795
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: episodes of TV shows Bob, I would be embarrassed to

796
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: tell you that I wrote for. And then I got

797
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: some jobs writing episodes for some of those shows. And

798
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: then Bob Greenblatt was at Fox at the time, and

799
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: he read a spec script of mine and he said,

800
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: I want you to come out. He said, you have

801
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: an original voice. I want you to come in and

802
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: let's talk about doing something. So he made me into

803
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: a pilot writer. And I was writing drama shows for

804
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: about six years, not one of which got made. I

805
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: came closer a couple of times, but I did like

806
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: two or three a year for the various networks drama

807
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: shows with a sense of humor. But I didn't see

808
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: much future for this either. You know, you write him

809
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 1: for a while, you're on the A list, and then somehow,

810
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: if you don't get him made, you're you're you're going

811
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 1: to get off that list. And I saw that coming

812
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: in around the same time I got to know of

813
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: grout Show, Marx's grandson, and he said, you know, you

814
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: should do a documentary about the Marx brothers. Nobody's done

815
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: a really great documentary about the Marx Brothers. It was like,

816
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: what do I know about making documentaries. I'm in the

817
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: scripted world. He's yeah, but you're a storyteller. So he

818
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 1: gave me the rights to do this, and I teamed

819
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: up with a guy that actually had done a little

820
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 1: bit of documentary work, guy named David Leaf. And David

821
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: and I did this documentary together called The Unknown Marx Brothers.

822
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: Got a lot of attention for it, and from that

823
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: it was sort of off to do other things. And

824
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: I just love the form. Okay, Bobby, how do you

825
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: end up in Blood, Sweat and Tears? Understand, I'm in

826
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: graduate school, just walked out hanging around in the West Village.

827
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: Being a jazz drummer. You jazz generally, you should have

828
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: a certain amount of technique, and you know, like like

829
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: Shakespeare understood English pretty well so he could express himself.

830
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: It's very hard to play jazz without having chops, having

831
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: some sort of technique. Pop music rock and roll at

832
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,399
Speaker 1: that time, in particular, you didn't need all of that

833
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: great technique. So I started hanging around in the village.

834
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating. I become friends with a guy

835
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: whose band is about to break up named Steve Katz,

836
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: and he's in a band that's called the Blues Project,

837
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: and that band was breaking up, so he and I

838
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: were extremely close friends. And it's gonna sound awful. They

839
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: were girls in the Westville hit a lot of girls,

840
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: and that was true because you know, I went to

841
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: Stuveston High School. Its all boys school, so as soon

842
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: as I got to co ed situations, it's pretty good.

843
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: And then I'm in the West Village, where you know,

844
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: it was great, and there's a lot of folk music.

845
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan was hanging around, Dave Van Ronk was hanging around,

846
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: and there weren't a lot of drummers that could play well.

847
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: I would say, enough to be versatile. So I would

848
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: play with Tiny tim one night, or play with all

849
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: these different people. I mean, not even for money, just

850
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: for fun, for hanging out. And there was one okay, wait, wait,

851
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 1: just stop one. Can you drop out of graduate school?

852
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: Do you then say to yourself, I'm gonna make it

853
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 1: as a musician. Never. I never had that in my

854
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: understand Fred vomited, so that lingered long enough to go

855
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: I ain't doing this for a living, but I could play.

856
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: So I'm hanging out with Steve. His band's breaking up.

857
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, I say to Steve, you know what, let's

858
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: you know, let's put something together. It would be fun.

859
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,959
Speaker 1: Cut to I meet Al Cooper. Al Cooper's down there.

860
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: He hears me play. I don't remember the exact circumstances,

861
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: but he hears me play and then says, would you

862
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: do me a favor? I'm leaving the United States. I

863
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 1: want to go to England and be a record producer.

864
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: I don't have money, so I want to do a

865
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: fundraiser at the Cafe Go Go, which was on Blika

866
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 1: Street where we didn't hang out anywhere but that, and

867
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: across the street where you know, there was what was

868
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: it called the Bitter End the ten Angel and the

869
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: dugout was underneath, and that was it. That was like,

870
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: that's the one the area on Blika Street. But you know,

871
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: Alt said would you help? I said, sure, you know, sure?

872
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: Should I not? Al was a force of nature. I'm

873
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: a guy that just walked out of graduate school. Know

874
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 1: nothing about the music business at all. I'm just you know,

875
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: playing drums and hanging out. And so al found a

876
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 1: bass player I think in California named Jim Fielder, and

877
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 1: he said, you know, I got a bass player, okay,

878
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: Seth Stewart hurt. I said, you know what, because I

879
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: knew that he had left the Blues Project and he

880
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: and Steve did not like each other at all. And

881
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: I said to Alice said, you know, you only live once,

882
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: and you know it'd be fun to have Steve on

883
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: the gig because Steve wasn't doing anything. And he said, oh,

884
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: he's not gonna do it. He hates me. I said,

885
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: you know, let me talk to him. And I spoke

886
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: to Steve and Steve said, well he won't let me.

887
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: I said, no, it'll be fine. You know you can

888
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 1: do it. So so we play as a quartet in

889
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 1: at the CAFEO Go Go, and I think we did

890
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,919
Speaker 1: three nights and I even somehow in my brain think

891
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: Paul Simon and Judy Collins played also us. But we

892
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: didn't sell out. I mean it was no one, you know, like,

893
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: it wasn't very crowded. But al had all these songs

894
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: that I really liked. So that was that I end

895
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: up at this moment, I'm playing with Odetta and she's

896
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: playing in Washington, d C. So I get an idea.

897
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: I said, hey, Steve, since we're, you know, gonna put

898
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: something together, why don't you ask Al if we can

899
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: use some of the songs because I can't quit or

900
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: I love I love Emmano was a great tune, and

901
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,439
Speaker 1: these are things that we played with him there, I said,

902
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: And I like this other one called my Day's a

903
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: Numbered I think it was called. I asked him, like,

904
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,439
Speaker 1: if we can use a song? And I will never

905
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 1: forget this moment. Odette is knocking on my door for something.

906
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: I'm on the phone. Steve calls and he goes, oh,

907
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,919
Speaker 1: I spoke to Al, and so like hush tones because

908
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to yell. So she knows him in

909
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 1: the room. Because I want to have the conversation, I said,

910
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: so what happened? He said, oh, yeah, we can absolutely

911
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: the songs. Oh, and he wants to he wants to

912
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: be in the band. In fact, he wants to be

913
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: the singer. And went, well when no, wait, wait wait,

914
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: and like I'm thinking, what's going on? And he's got

915
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: a name blood Sweat. I'm writing down blood Sweats. What

916
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: kind of name is for a band? And we've got

917
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: a gig. I said, you gotta be kidding. Al, apparently,

918
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: who is amazing at this. He's he's he's ubiquitous. Was

919
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,439
Speaker 1: talking to a promoter at the Village Theater, which soon

920
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: became the film or East, and that person said, Al,

921
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 1: do you have a band? I need an opening act

922
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: for the James Cotton Band, like a blues band. I

923
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: got a band and that was it, and I go, man,

924
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: this is unbelievable what I don't And I'm now I'm

925
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: I'm realizing that whatever I had planned to put together

926
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: was off and running. And Al's already talking to labels.

927
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: He's a mile ahead of us. And I'll never forget.

928
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: So we have this gig at the Village Theater and

929
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: I woke in for a sound check and there's a

930
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: riser in the middle of the stage as an organ

931
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: way up on this riser, we're all on the ground

932
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 1: and I'm looking up and I had suggested because because

933
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: we're talking about adding horns, I said, yeah, yeah, And

934
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: because I have all these jazz playing really good players,

935
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, that's what I want to do Fred

936
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: Lipsia says a guy. He's great. There's a guy named

937
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: Paul Fleischer that I called first unavailable. Fred said, yeah,

938
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: I give it a shot. So Fred comes and we're playing,

939
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: but we're on the ground and I was way up

940
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,439
Speaker 1: in the air and I'm looking up. I said, oh,

941
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: why are you up there? Oh oh, it's much better

942
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: for the sound. I went, oh, okay, I have no clue.

943
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: And we're playing the gig and all of a sudden,

944
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 1: Al with his hand shuts the band down, like stop playing,

945
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: and he just starts to play. He puts the heel

946
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,720
Speaker 1: of his left hand on the lowest notes of the organ. Organs.

947
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: Organs have all plastic keys, so it's not like a piano,

948
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 1: so you can roll your hands around an organ without

949
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: getting hurt. So he puts the heel of his left

950
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: hand on the lowest part and he starts to work

951
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 1: his way up to the middle of the keyboard, and

952
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: then his right hand takes over. He turns on the

953
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: leslie speakers, so it's going whooo like this, and he

954
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 1: goes to the highest note on the organ and he's

955
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: just sliding his hands up. HiT's the highest note and

956
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: starts writhing in pain, as if it's harder to play

957
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: that note than any other note. And he's holding down

958
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 1: the note and writhing, and I'm looking up and the

959
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: audience is going nuts, and I'm thinking he's got them

960
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: completely fooled. They think, oh my god, this spot, this

961
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 1: rock and roll shit is unbelievable, This is crap. And

962
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 1: I'm thinking this is so insane. The end of the gig,

963
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: half an hour, they pay me two hundred and forty

964
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 1: two dollars. I'm thinking, now, as an industrial psychologist, I'm

965
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: gonna make about fifteen grand the year. I just made

966
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: two hundred and forty two bucks his name. But this

967
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: is a good thing. And Al is off. He's now

968
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: conjuring up stuff. His publisher becomes a manager, and I'm

969
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: a passenger. I'm just going, what the hell is going on?

970
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: And he's going to labels And now he's got a

971
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:23,439
Speaker 1: guy to come down and hear us audition or play

972
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:27,399
Speaker 1: a gig at the ogogo and we had a record

973
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: deal on Columbia Records. It's unbelievable. Okay, jumping to the

974
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 1: second al, but that's a big gem, bro, Believe me,

975
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: it is. But I could go on for an hour

976
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: or what you just told me. I feel bad because

977
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: I want to hear some of that more than some

978
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: of the stuff. I know. Al's version of leaving the band,

979
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: there's a version in the movie. Is that how you remember?

980
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,879
Speaker 1: Here's exactly what happened. I call him meeting. I'm at

981
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: this point savvy enough, having been in the band, now

982
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: a band, and signed to a label for a year

983
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: and change, and the and the album tanks. It doesn't

984
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 1: sell in anything for like forty thousand records or something.

985
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: And in those days, like Columbia Records could could easily

986
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: drop one hundred grande excuse me, like about one hundred

987
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: thousand records. But this thing really tanked, and it didn't

988
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: look like there was going to be a lot of success.

989
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: And in my view, I thought with his voice, we

990
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: wouldn't get on the radio. I don't I didn't think

991
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 1: we would. I mean, I loved them in the band,

992
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: but just his singing was a little less than what

993
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: radio would allow. I thought. Al. I read somewhere that

994
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,399
Speaker 1: he said he was calling a meeting to actually get

995
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: rid of Steve, to fire Steve. I'm calling a meeting

996
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: because I want to suggest we need a new lead singer,

997
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, just he I never want to kick him

998
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: out of the band, but I knew we needed a

999
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: lead singer. So we called a band meeting and we

1000
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,919
Speaker 1: got to the thing or I said, al, I really

1001
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: think we have to have a lead singer. I mean,

1002
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: if this thing is gonna last, And he said, I'm

1003
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: the singer or I'm walking. And I said, well, let's vote,

1004
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: and he was voted down and he left, and that's

1005
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: what happened. Okay. He also says that the band reacted

1006
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: negatively to the song The Moderate Adventures of Plato Diogenes

1007
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: in Freud about his therapy. Any truth to that, I

1008
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: don't know if the band did. I hated the idea

1009
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: that we have a band of eight musicians and he

1010
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: does a song about himself with a string court that

1011
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: we're not even playing on it. He just he does

1012
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: a song without us, and I thought, well, that's really

1013
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 1: what he wants to do. He wants to be a

1014
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: solo artist, then he should just be a solo artist,

1015
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: because you don't have a band like with Randy Brecker

1016
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: in it. And he placed four bars on the entire album.

1017
00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: You gotta be kidding, Okay, so I'm watching the movie,

1018
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: and the movie is primarily about this nineteen seventy Eastern

1019
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: European tour, and I figured that Al would not be mentioned,

1020
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: and I was very surprised what he was somewhat favorably.

1021
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: So how did that end up in the movie. It

1022
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: almost didn't. Honestly, John wanted it, and he said, I

1023
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: think we need the history of the band. And I

1024
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: was saying, John, text, context, context, and I said, John,

1025
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: in my humble opinion, it has nothing to do with

1026
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: that band. That's a different iteration. That's another band, completely

1027
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: different band, even in concept. So this thing we're doing

1028
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: is about this band. And he said, Noah, I really

1029
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: think we should put it in. And I said, yep,

1030
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 1: but you're putting an in kind of late and should start.

1031
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: John knows his business. I don't know that business. And

1032
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: he just said, no, you know, I want to leave

1033
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: it in. I said, all right, So that's why we did.

1034
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 1: It was important to know where they came from and

1035
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: how David came to be in the band. So it's

1036
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: not a significant part of the film, but it is

1037
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: something I thought people needed to know. And I'm an

1038
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: Al Cooper fan. I have some of his solo records,

1039
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: and I love that first album, and so I thought,

1040
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 1: let's give him his due. And we actually found a

1041
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 1: rare piece of audio from back in the day where

1042
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: he's talking about the band, and that's in there. And

1043
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: I don't know that many people have heard that. Okay,

1044
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: professionals know that sometimes you have to leave the best

1045
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 1: stuff out because it doesn't serve the story. What was

1046
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: left out of this film? That's really great? Well, a

1047
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: great question. That's a great question, Bob. Let me think

1048
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: about this just for a second. I don't know that

1049
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: we left out anything that was really great. We did

1050
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: have a lovely emotional moment where this manager, Larry Goldblatt,

1051
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: is going to marry his assistant and they're going to

1052
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: get married in Belgrade, Yugoslavia, and the US ambassador to

1053
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 1: Yugoslavia arranges the whole thing with the government so they

1054
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: can get married in this church in Belgrade, and he

1055
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 1: gives away Tina. It's Tina Cunningham who you see in

1056
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 1: the film. She talks a lot about being there on

1057
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: the tour. He gives her away. David Clayton Thomas is

1058
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 1: Larry's best man, and they get married in this church

1059
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: and the documentary film crew shoots the whole thing and

1060
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: outside it's a lovely, sweet little moment. And they had

1061
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 1: given the documentary film crew had given the film to

1062
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: Tina and it was sitting in her attic for a

1063
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 1: long time. She found it, send it to us. We

1064
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 1: had a new transfer made and it was in for

1065
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 1: the longest time because it was just sort of nice.

1066
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,160
Speaker 1: It wasn't about politics, it wasn't about the music. It's

1067
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: just a sweet moment about two people that that we're

1068
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: getting to know as participants in the story, and it's just,

1069
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 1: you know, Bobby got to the point where and we

1070
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: were sorry, we were a little long, and you just

1071
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: have to cut certain things. So we did cut that one. Um, Bobby,

1072
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 1: I don't know do we cut anything else that we

1073
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: would say is important. I can say that when I

1074
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: saw that very early version and saw that, here's what

1075
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 1: came to mind. Number one, that's Larry Gold that's scamming

1076
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: the government into paying for his wedding and shooting it

1077
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: and putting the hole that I said, oh, that's perfect.

1078
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 1: And then and then I you know, you know, John said,

1079
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 1: what the hell happened about web tears? And I'm thinking

1080
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: why the hell are we watching this guy get married?

1081
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 1: It was just it didn't make sense. But I can't

1082
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 1: think of anything significant that you had in there, because

1083
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: but you know, John's a storyteller, so he I started

1084
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: to talk for you. But he sees the movie a

1085
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 1: certain way and realizes, here's hear us some bridges I need,

1086
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 1: and significantly he finds Don Cameron. Yeah, the director of

1087
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: the documentary That Never Happened was a guy named Don Cambern.

1088
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: Your listeners may or may not know that name, but

1089
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: they should. He was famous as an editor. He did

1090
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: five easy Pieces, He did one of the Romancing the Stone,

1091
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 1: he did one of the Ghostbusters movies, he did Drive.

1092
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: He said, he did a lot of those sort of

1093
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: early movies, and this was going to be his first

1094
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: directing job. And I saw his name, and we couldn't

1095
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 1: find him for the longest time, and we finally tracked

1096
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 1: him down to an independent living facility in Burbank. He's

1097
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 1: ninety years old and he was living there, and because

1098
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: it was COVID time, we couldn't get him out to

1099
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 1: do an interview. They weren't letting people out or in.

1100
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 1: And finally there was a week where they were going

1101
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: to let him out, and we had him come to

1102
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 1: our place and we shot an interview and then you

1103
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: see him in the film. He's wonderful. It's just the

1104
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: way he describes him things and the way he expresses himself.

1105
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: It's just fantastic. So that wasn't in the first cut

1106
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: Bobby saw, and because Don was so great, we added

1107
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: some more elements to that part of the story of

1108
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 1: the making of the documentary that never happened. But I

1109
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 1: would say, Bob, rather than things we had to leave

1110
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,880
Speaker 1: on the cutting room floor, I would rather mention a

1111
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 1: couple of things that if we hadn't found film, we

1112
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to illustrate half as well as

1113
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 1: we did. So you remember that Bloodswitt and Tears was

1114
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,959
Speaker 1: one of the headliners at Woodstock, but nobody knows because

1115
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: they weren't in the movie and they weren't on the soundtrack.

1116
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: And we explain why that is in the film, but

1117
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 1: what and Bobby said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no film,

1118
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 1: and I said, I can't believe. Anyway, we tracked down

1119
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:58,000
Speaker 1: in a corner of Warner Brothers. It turns out they

1120
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 1: didn't turn off the film cameras on Blood Sweat and

1121
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 1: Tears until after the fifth song. So there are five

1122
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: songs that were captured by Blood Sweat and Tears, and

1123
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: so we work out to deal with Warner Brothers. It

1124
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 1: took months, but we work out to deal with Warner Brothers.

1125
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:14,959
Speaker 1: And I want to use a song that we don't

1126
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 1: have Blood Sweat and Tears performing anywhere else, and that's

1127
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: More and More, which was a great rendition of a

1128
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 1: motown song, And so we get my favorite song on

1129
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: that second is right. It's just a killer song. It

1130
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 1: just gets you. So we see they make a new

1131
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: HD transfer for us, and we're looking at this film

1132
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 1: that no one's ever seen because it was just cut up,

1133
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 1: you know, they no one knew it was there anyway.

1134
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 1: So we were able to tell the Woodstock story with

1135
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 1: a piece of film that no one has ever seen.

1136
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 1: That's what I really liked. I like that we had

1137
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 1: at least the hour that we had here. And now

1138
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,919
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you another story. In the one

1139
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 1: hour version, we're a number of performance sequences with the band,

1140
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 1: but they were it was all shot on sixteen and

1141
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 1: when they finished this thing, it was the optical track

1142
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 1: on the side of the film that compresses the sound

1143
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 1: and it's mono. I can live with this if we

1144
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 1: have to, but as Bobby knows, I am never satisfied.

1145
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 1: And so we got to. But nobody knew where these

1146
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 1: eight track tapes were. Band didn't have him, never knew

1147
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: about him. I thought, well, maybe they ended up at

1148
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 1: Columbia Records because they were the label. They had nothing

1149
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 1: to do with this documentary that never happened, so they

1150
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 1: didn't have them. And we're just going around and around

1151
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 1: all these same storage units. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. And

1152
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: then Kathleen, my wonderful researcher, ends up talking to the

1153
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 1: family of the associate producer of this documentary that never happened.

1154
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 1: He was on the tour with him and he had

1155
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: died in twenty eighteen, so we didn't get him and

1156
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,919
Speaker 1: to learn the story behind it. But when he died,

1157
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: his family gave the contents of his storage unit to

1158
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 1: the Academy Emotion Picture Arts and sign it's his library,

1159
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 1: and they were just sitting there like on a shelf.

1160
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 1: Nobody even bothered to inventory this thing. So Kathleen, because

1161
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 1: she is very sweet and extremely persistent, gets this wonderful

1162
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 1: archivist to finally do an inventory, and what do you know?

1163
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: There's five eight track tapes there, three, seven, eight, nine,

1164
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 1: and eighteen. We know there were eighteen at one time.

1165
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 1: What happened to the others. We don't know why he

1166
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: saved these five. We don't know, but there they are, pristine,

1167
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 1: never been played since they were recorded in nineteen seventy.

1168
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: So I call up Bobby. He can't believe it. He

1169
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 1: pulls in this fantastic engineer, Alan Sides. Tell him what

1170
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 1: we did at Capitol Records. I said, okay. He said,

1171
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 1: I want these to sound great. You know, you mix them.

1172
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 1: So we have to make these eight tracks into stereo.

1173
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: So we have to mix them. And Alan's brilliant, and

1174
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 1: I love gadgets and I love ducing, and you know,

1175
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: that's my favorite part of it, anything is recording. So

1176
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 1: I'm in the studio with Alan and we're mixing these

1177
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: things down. And this is humble bragging. I was never

1178
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: a fan of my drumming. I just because I heard

1179
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: Tony Williams and Philly Joe and I heard these unbelievably

1180
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 1: great drummers that you know. I was with a band

1181
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 1: that was successful, and at that point I was the

1182
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: band leader and I was playing all over the record,

1183
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 1: but I didn't love my playing. So I'm sitting in

1184
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 1: the room and I'm I'm mixing with Alan, and all

1185
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I'm thrown back in time fifty years

1186
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 1: and it's like I'm a surgeon in the middle of

1187
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 1: an operation and a doctor next to me taps me

1188
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:51,440
Speaker 1: on the shoulder and says, by the way, do you

1189
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 1: know who you're operating on. That's you fifty years ago.

1190
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 1: And that was like an out of body experience. I

1191
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: started realizing it, and we're mixing away and I for

1192
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 1: the first time in my life, I said I would

1193
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 1: go to hear that drummer. He was good, that could play.

1194
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 1: He's good. It was the first time. And I was

1195
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 1: walking around on air and John was there and I said,

1196
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:16,640
Speaker 1: I was good, I could play. He was like a

1197
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 1: little kid. It was really funny. But I think what

1198
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: the most interesting thing for me was how good this

1199
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 1: band was live. They were just great. And the way

1200
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,640
Speaker 1: that Bobby and Allan mixed these and that's why I

1201
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: hope your listeners are going to go see us on

1202
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: a big screen with a great sound exploding out of

1203
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:37,680
Speaker 1: the speakers. They mixed it in a way that you

1204
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,799
Speaker 1: just feel like this was recorded yesterday and the band

1205
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:45,440
Speaker 1: is just killing it and they're they're fantastic. So across

1206
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: these five tapes were all but one song that they

1207
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 1: had performed on the tour. We couldn't find one of them,

1208
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 1: so that is in mono in the film, but the

1209
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,839
Speaker 1: rest are great, and it just brought those sequences alive.

1210
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 1: The other thing that was interesting, there's a little bit

1211
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 1: of a Raschiman thing here, Bob, where not all the

1212
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 1: band members saw everything because they weren't there. Some were there,

1213
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 1: some weren't. Only one guy knew about the story of

1214
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 1: having to smuggle the film out of Romania. Only one guy, Bobby,

1215
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: didn't know that story. None of the other guys knew

1216
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: the story. And I'm sitting there hearing it from this

1217
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:21,839
Speaker 1: guy because it hadn't shown up in any of the research.

1218
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 1: It's like, what's going on here? And I thought, this

1219
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 1: is like the stuff of a great spy movie or

1220
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 1: a great espionage novel, you know how they had to

1221
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: deal with the secret police of Romania and get this

1222
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 1: stuff out. And so that's another thing that until somebody

1223
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 1: told me the story, I wouldn't have known to put

1224
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 1: it in there, and it ended up being kind of

1225
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 1: a really cool sequence of the film. Okay, the film

1226
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:55,520
Speaker 1: really captures the era so in terms of the overall

1227
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 1: because the movie's about blood, sweat and tears, but you

1228
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 1: really get a vibe for the lead sixties. So when

1229
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 1: you're constructing the film, to what degree do you decide

1230
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 1: what the emphasis on? Did your conscially you want to

1231
01:10:08,479 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 1: set the time, in the tone, what was going on?

1232
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:14,759
Speaker 1: This is really fascinating. Bobby and I've been doing interviews

1233
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: for a couple of days now. These are like We've

1234
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,120
Speaker 1: never been asked these questions before. This is like fantastic.

1235
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 1: I'm having a time in my life here. When I'm

1236
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:26,040
Speaker 1: making a documentary, I view it very much as a

1237
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:30,200
Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzle. We all got him when we were kids

1238
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:33,640
Speaker 1: for birthday holiday, and you open up the box and

1239
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:35,719
Speaker 1: you dump out and there's a thousand pieces and eventually

1240
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:38,080
Speaker 1: you fit it together and they make a pretty picture,

1241
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 1: but they only fit together one way. Those pieces what

1242
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 1: we do as documentary filmmakers. You can fit him together

1243
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 1: ten ways, twenty ways, fifty ways, one hundred ways, and

1244
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:50,559
Speaker 1: it's how you fit those pieces together that makes your

1245
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,519
Speaker 1: film good, bad, or ugly, and so when Bobby says,

1246
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:55,240
Speaker 1: I kind of see the whole thing in my head,

1247
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 1: he's right, I kind of see how we want to

1248
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 1: fit all these pieces together in a way that one

1249
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 1: scene leads you to the next, to the next. It

1250
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 1: isn't just in nineteen sixty eight. This happened. In nineteen

1251
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 1: sixty nine. That happened. So what I wanted to do was,

1252
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 1: first of all, we didn't want this to be a

1253
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 1: music doc. We I really wanted this to be a thriller,

1254
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: political thriller, and that's how we always felt about it.

1255
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 1: And so really early on, right in the first two

1256
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 1: and a half minutes of the opening, we're already introducing

1257
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 1: Cold War and footage of tanks and marching soldiers and

1258
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 1: all of this. And then very soon after we come

1259
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:35,080
Speaker 1: back after the main title, I wanted to set the

1260
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 1: context of the times, So we talk about Vietnam and

1261
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 1: what that was doing to rip the country apart. We

1262
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:45,599
Speaker 1: talk about Nixon and the White House, We talk about

1263
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: marching in the streets for civil rights and all these

1264
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: kind of things that were the mid to late sixties.

1265
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 1: Because I felt it was really important to understand what

1266
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:57,320
Speaker 1: blood sweat and tears was going to run into at

1267
01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 1: the end of this tour, we had to understand where

1268
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:03,720
Speaker 1: the country was. So context became very very important, and

1269
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 1: that's why some of those pieces became part of the

1270
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:11,640
Speaker 1: overall jigsaw. And and then we needed to know what

1271
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: they were going into in these countries. So if you notice,

1272
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,720
Speaker 1: we found some really rare film of Nixon going to

1273
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: Romania and holding hands, if you will, with Cecheski, the dictator,

1274
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 1: and we had to set that up because ultimately that's

1275
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 1: what was so important was Nixon wanted to have detont

1276
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 1: with Romania to sort of split them off from the

1277
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 1: Russian orbit, and he didn't want anything that was to

1278
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 1: get in the way. And when we started to look

1279
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:42,479
Speaker 1: at these internal memos from the State Department, you saw

1280
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 1: that they were all concerned about this, Oh, we don't

1281
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 1: offend the Romanians. We don't know of the Yugoslavs and

1282
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:51,360
Speaker 1: the Poles, and so everybody had an agenda here. But

1283
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 1: to understand the agenda, we had to know where the

1284
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 1: country was and what was happening. Okay, Bobby emphasized in

1285
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: the film, is that everybody was eager to do this.

1286
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:05,679
Speaker 1: Certain members of the band were anti war, anti Nixon.

1287
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 1: What do you remember about all We were all anti

1288
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:13,599
Speaker 1: war and all anti Nixon individually, not as a group.

1289
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:16,680
Speaker 1: We never made group statements. We all felt the same

1290
01:13:17,960 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 1: at that point. I mean, the country was as polarized

1291
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 1: as it is today, but it was age. It was

1292
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:27,639
Speaker 1: up and down, so like over thirty was one way

1293
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:31,440
Speaker 1: and under thirty was another, and we were under thirty.

1294
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 1: So you know, we all felt badly about Nixon, and

1295
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:37,680
Speaker 1: we all felt badly about the war. It was just

1296
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 1: that's what we felt. So going there, we understood that

1297
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 1: we couldn't tell anybody the fact that we're going, and

1298
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 1: the State Department wanted to make sure that it was

1299
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:55,600
Speaker 1: a State Department sponsors sure tour. I mean they it was,

1300
01:13:56,000 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 1: you know, advertised that way. We knew it, said Davis

1301
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 1: hugging Nixon. We knew that was not going to work

1302
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 1: for us. Steve in particular, didn't even want to go.

1303
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:10,599
Speaker 1: He just said, you know, this is crazy. I don't

1304
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 1: I don't want to have anything to do with the

1305
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:18,439
Speaker 1: State Department. Ironically, what I ascertained from going to DC

1306
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 1: and meeting some of these people, the State Department as

1307
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 1: a unit was pretty much not into Nixon. They were

1308
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 1: on the other side of this thing. It was just

1309
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,080
Speaker 1: a you know, it was the State Department, but they

1310
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:35,519
Speaker 1: weren't big fans of Nixon, so I didn't feel as

1311
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 1: badly about it. Plus we had to get the green

1312
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 1: card for David had to and look, we really and

1313
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 1: David says this, you know throughout the film, we're just

1314
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:53,720
Speaker 1: musicians and that's really what we were. We were not politicians.

1315
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:56,320
Speaker 1: We didn't you know, that wasn't a marketing stick for

1316
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 1: us to say, hey, we're anti war, so follow us.

1317
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 1: We just played. And for me individually, I just I

1318
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:06,600
Speaker 1: was so proud of the band because we had, you know,

1319
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 1: a couple of great musicians and for people to hear

1320
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:15,760
Speaker 1: this level of musicianship to me and playing jazz solos,

1321
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:19,600
Speaker 1: legitimate jazz solos was great on a pop record. The

1322
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 1: fact that it got successful was shocking to me. And

1323
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,719
Speaker 1: I was thrilled to death by the way, but shocking.

1324
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 1: One of the highlights of the film is what goes

1325
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 1: on in Romania? Can you tell us what happened and

1326
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,519
Speaker 1: how you ultimately put it together in a satisfying way

1327
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:41,599
Speaker 1: in the film? Sure, again, Bob, Had we not found

1328
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:44,719
Speaker 1: that sixteen minute version, we would have not been able

1329
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 1: to tell that part of the story, but there was

1330
01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:49,920
Speaker 1: wonderful footage of what happened in Romania. So they were

1331
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: scheduled for two concerts in Bucharest, which is the capitol,

1332
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:58,599
Speaker 1: and the first night it's totally packed with young people

1333
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:04,360
Speaker 1: who go biser at the sounds and the energy of

1334
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 1: this American rock and roll, and they're up on their

1335
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:11,200
Speaker 1: feet and they're cheering, and they're yelling and they're screaming,

1336
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 1: and there's some of them are trying to get to

1337
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 1: the stage, and the government doesn't know how to handle this.

1338
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,559
Speaker 1: You know when when when we talk about repressive regimes

1339
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:24,920
Speaker 1: or authoritarian regimes, it's all about control. We got to

1340
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 1: control these people. These kids were out of control. They

1341
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:29,840
Speaker 1: were so excited by this music and what it represented

1342
01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 1: to them. And so part of what we wanted to

1343
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,519
Speaker 1: do was see if we couldn't track down some people

1344
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:38,640
Speaker 1: that were actually in the crowd that night and then

1345
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:43,640
Speaker 1: the second night in Bucharest. So we hired researchers in

1346
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:47,759
Speaker 1: the Croatia Romanian Poland, and they through the social media,

1347
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 1: God blessed social media, they found of six people that

1348
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:54,519
Speaker 1: were in these concerts, and so it wasn't me as

1349
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:57,559
Speaker 1: the filmmaker trying to suggest how they felt about it.

1350
01:16:57,560 --> 01:16:59,840
Speaker 1: It was these people actually telling you from the heart

1351
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 1: what this meant to people that were living under communism,

1352
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:06,280
Speaker 1: who had no freedom, who had no freedom of choice,

1353
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:09,760
Speaker 1: who were listening to music that was basically banned up

1354
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:12,280
Speaker 1: until this time, and here it is, they can do it.

1355
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:16,080
Speaker 1: And so we really wanted to capture this, so we

1356
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:19,759
Speaker 1: set all of this up in the film getting to Romania,

1357
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:21,639
Speaker 1: and then we have this one night and it's going

1358
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:27,400
Speaker 1: so great and the government freaks out and there's a

1359
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:33,480
Speaker 1: meeting the next morning where they present points of demands

1360
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 1: to Larry Goldblad about this is what you have to

1361
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 1: do if you're going to do your second concert, and

1362
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: it was just ridiculous. It was, you know, keep your

1363
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:44,920
Speaker 1: shirts buttoned, don't show too much chest, don't let the

1364
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 1: roadies come out with their long hair because that's going

1365
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:50,760
Speaker 1: to get people excited. And especially for Bobby's point of view,

1366
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 1: it's like more jazz less rock because that'll keep the

1367
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:59,160
Speaker 1: crowd quiet. And we had this footage of the band

1368
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:03,799
Speaker 1: in a hotel tell room discussing and arguing about where

1369
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 1: they going to meet these demands. Of the Romanian government

1370
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 1: or not. And how many times, Bob can you can

1371
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 1: we think of a situation where a rock band, a

1372
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:14,840
Speaker 1: rock band is being told what to do by the

1373
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 1: highest levels of a foreign government. And so these guys,

1374
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 1: you know, in the best thrillers, whether it's Hitchcock or

1375
01:18:23,479 --> 01:18:28,120
Speaker 1: anybody else, it's usually some kind of innocent party gets

1376
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 1: drawn into the intrigue. And that's what happened to these guys.

1377
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 1: These are just innocent musicians, and now they're drawn into

1378
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 1: all of this stuff that's going on. And so what

1379
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 1: we had to do then was we had to figure out,

1380
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 1: all right, how do we tell the story of the

1381
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 1: second night, because part of what they demanded was that

1382
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:49,680
Speaker 1: you cannot have the cameras going the second night. And

1383
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 1: what we learned was that Don cambern our fabulous director,

1384
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 1: had told all of his crew guys, all right, you

1385
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:57,719
Speaker 1: can't use the movie cameras, but use your still cameras.

1386
01:18:57,880 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 1: We had a ton of still film, so we could

1387
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 1: tell the story of what happened the second night. But

1388
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:05,120
Speaker 1: what happened was they were so excited again maybe even

1389
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:09,599
Speaker 1: more so, that the government brought out the dogs and

1390
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:12,479
Speaker 1: they brought out the soldiers to try to control everybody.

1391
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:14,680
Speaker 1: That only made things worse. There were fires up in

1392
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:16,640
Speaker 1: the balcony and all that kind of stuff, and then

1393
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 1: they were beating kids up, and it was just it

1394
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:23,639
Speaker 1: was a look at that part of the world that

1395
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:27,040
Speaker 1: maybe most Americans hadn't really thought about, And Bobby and

1396
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:29,200
Speaker 1: the guys I know hadn't really thought about it till

1397
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:32,720
Speaker 1: they experienced it. So what I wanted was a very

1398
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 1: visceral experience. So there are moments where we don't have

1399
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,879
Speaker 1: anybody actually telling the story, we just let the footage

1400
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 1: speak for itself. And then other times we have people

1401
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:45,040
Speaker 1: telling the story in a very emotional way. And that's

1402
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 1: what I felt was important here in this particular sequence. Okay, Bobby,

1403
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 1: you know, and most people don't know the adrenaline, the

1404
01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:58,760
Speaker 1: power of the feeling of being on stage. You know,

1405
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:01,679
Speaker 1: we live in in an era of deep fakes, etc.

1406
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:05,639
Speaker 1: You can tell the story anyway. Did you really feel

1407
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:11,920
Speaker 1: a difference in Romania. Well, we hit the stage. We're excited.

1408
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:16,880
Speaker 1: We always loved to perform, you know, we enjoyed the

1409
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:18,920
Speaker 1: real you know, I mean, you played better when there's

1410
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:24,080
Speaker 1: an audience's reacting to you. We hit the stage. I

1411
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:26,559
Speaker 1: don't think one person in that audience knew the name

1412
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:30,799
Speaker 1: of the band. They just knew USA. And I felt

1413
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:34,920
Speaker 1: like I was playing and there were bars between us

1414
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:38,679
Speaker 1: and the audience, and once we started playing, the bars

1415
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:44,400
Speaker 1: dissolved and these people, we could feel this unbelievable energy.

1416
01:20:44,439 --> 01:20:48,920
Speaker 1: They're chanting USA, they're screen and they are moving to

1417
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:52,840
Speaker 1: the music. And as you can imagine, and you're very right,

1418
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 1: your adrenaline when you're especially when you're playing drums, when

1419
01:20:56,360 --> 01:21:00,839
Speaker 1: you're on stage, they're they're feeding you and you're getting

1420
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,360
Speaker 1: more excited. The irony is when we had that meeting

1421
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:09,599
Speaker 1: that John just described, they did say more jazz, less

1422
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 1: rock and roll, and I said, what do you have

1423
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:15,639
Speaker 1: a jazz meter? How would you? And truthfully I never

1424
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:20,559
Speaker 1: played backbeats, you know all that loudly. The second night

1425
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:22,600
Speaker 1: when they said play more jazz, I played rock and

1426
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:25,559
Speaker 1: roll through everything a guy could be playing a jazz

1427
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 1: So I'm like, bump, bump, back back, I'm banging away

1428
01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:33,880
Speaker 1: because how dare you tell us what to play? And

1429
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:37,599
Speaker 1: we rock, We rock and rolled more the second night

1430
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:40,960
Speaker 1: and the audience went berserk. They told David, don't throw

1431
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 1: like your instruments off the stage. We're going, what instrument?

1432
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:48,639
Speaker 1: What are you talking about? David just dropped a gong

1433
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 1: that was part of the show. He threw the thing.

1434
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:55,680
Speaker 1: On the second night. It was like, we did exactly

1435
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:57,920
Speaker 1: the opposite of, you know, what they told us to do,

1436
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:03,760
Speaker 1: and the audience was amazing and we, you know, afterwards finished.

1437
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:08,600
Speaker 1: They kept cheering and cheering and cheering, and we're backstage

1438
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:12,479
Speaker 1: and it's it's in the film. I'm like, we're going, okay,

1439
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 1: so okay, so we have to do something else. What

1440
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:16,479
Speaker 1: are we going to do? And we have to fit,

1441
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:19,080
Speaker 1: you know, I figure out what songs should we play next?

1442
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 1: And David's freaking out because our singer, David, because he's

1443
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:28,400
Speaker 1: watching kids get beaten out, he's seeing the police come

1444
01:22:28,439 --> 01:22:31,720
Speaker 1: in with dogs, and he said, meant, all we want

1445
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 1: to do is but we have to play for these kids.

1446
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:36,120
Speaker 1: I said, let's go, let's go, let's play. And we

1447
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 1: went out and did another song, and the cops and

1448
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 1: the police and the soldiers rather and the dogs. It

1449
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:50,280
Speaker 1: just got worse. It just got worse. Okay. Um. A

1450
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:53,559
Speaker 1: couple of questions, how long was this from the time

1451
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 1: you left New York? Do you return to the stage.

1452
01:22:56,720 --> 01:23:00,559
Speaker 1: And I know somebody who was a photographer for Led Zeppelin,

1453
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:03,479
Speaker 1: and this was of course in the film era, and

1454
01:23:03,560 --> 01:23:05,920
Speaker 1: he says, I've been around the world and see nothing.

1455
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:11,679
Speaker 1: So to what degree did you partake and actually see

1456
01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:15,280
Speaker 1: what was going on in these communist countries? We all did.

1457
01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:18,280
Speaker 1: We all went out. We all. I mean, this is

1458
01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:22,160
Speaker 1: not a drugged out, drunk band. We were not a

1459
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:26,080
Speaker 1: typical rock and roll band like that. And even when

1460
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:29,479
Speaker 1: I toured here, I would go to stores, you know,

1461
01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:34,439
Speaker 1: in the daytime. I'd go into towns early. As you said,

1462
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:37,639
Speaker 1: there's adrenaline even when you're playing, and certainly it doesn't

1463
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,519
Speaker 1: go away the second you're off stage, so you have

1464
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:45,559
Speaker 1: to really try and go to sleep. Find something super

1465
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 1: boring like in England was fantastic because they had international darts,

1466
01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:53,200
Speaker 1: they had darts on television. I said, oh, this is perfect.

1467
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:56,400
Speaker 1: I can sleep through this. But that was our first

1468
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:59,960
Speaker 1: European tour. So we left and I think we would

1469
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:03,120
Speaker 1: on for two weeks or three weeks, three weeks three

1470
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:08,840
Speaker 1: and we did Eastern Europe and Western Europe. But you know,

1471
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:14,679
Speaker 1: we left not feeling that our country was in great shape.

1472
01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:19,120
Speaker 1: We felt it was racism. We saw I'm repeating myself,

1473
01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:22,639
Speaker 1: but we saw what's going on Vietnam. We saw Nixon.

1474
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:27,719
Speaker 1: But we came back and we right off the plane

1475
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:30,800
Speaker 1: and there's a press conference. No one tells us. So

1476
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:35,320
Speaker 1: three of us are sitting there, and you could tell

1477
01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:39,320
Speaker 1: from the questions they hated us, like we did something wrong,

1478
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:44,479
Speaker 1: and they were you know, questions, and the attitude of

1479
01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 1: the questions was awful. And we knew that, oh, something's

1480
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:53,160
Speaker 1: wrong here. And what we all everyone in the band

1481
01:24:53,439 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 1: saw the same thing. As bad as things were here.

1482
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:02,200
Speaker 1: Certainly we had problems. Comunism is the last thing you

1483
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 1: want in this country, and we said it. We came

1484
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 1: back and we just said no matter, Yes we're screwed,

1485
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:12,240
Speaker 1: Yes we have problems, but that you don't want in

1486
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:15,719
Speaker 1: this country ever, because we saw it right in front

1487
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:18,600
Speaker 1: of our faces. I mean, we experienced it. It was horrifying,

1488
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:24,960
Speaker 1: absolutely horrifying, Okay, John, The tone changes during that press conference.

1489
01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:31,479
Speaker 1: In addition, you contrast reviews and then you find the

1490
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:35,120
Speaker 1: people who write them who basically say we tracked what

1491
01:25:35,160 --> 01:25:38,120
Speaker 1: they said. Tell us how all that came together. Sure,

1492
01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:45,679
Speaker 1: the band members and Tina, who was Larry Goblatt's ex wife,

1493
01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:50,439
Speaker 1: all had photographs, and I was lucky enough to go

1494
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:53,000
Speaker 1: out to all their houses and went through all the photos,

1495
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:55,719
Speaker 1: and there was stuff there that that was just perfect

1496
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:59,360
Speaker 1: for helping us tell the story. Tina had about seven

1497
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:02,640
Speaker 1: or eight photos of the press conference. Nobody else had that,

1498
01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:06,120
Speaker 1: so we're able to do that. But then Bobby talks

1499
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:08,120
Speaker 1: about the press conference. But how are we going to

1500
01:26:08,240 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 1: illustrate this? So I would go over to Bobby's house

1501
01:26:12,320 --> 01:26:16,519
Speaker 1: and we're down in his man cave downstairs, and he's

1502
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 1: got all these ten or twelve inch tapes up on

1503
01:26:21,479 --> 01:26:23,599
Speaker 1: a shelf so high. I had to go get a ladder.

1504
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:25,880
Speaker 1: It's like, what are those? He says, I don't know

1505
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:28,240
Speaker 1: what they are. It's like, well, I gotta get up there,

1506
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:31,120
Speaker 1: so he lets me get it ladder. I go up

1507
01:26:31,160 --> 01:26:32,880
Speaker 1: on these shelves and I'm kind of going through and

1508
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:35,960
Speaker 1: a lot of them are bands he produced or sessions

1509
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:37,960
Speaker 1: that he did with somebody or another, having nothing whatsoever

1510
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:40,120
Speaker 1: to do with Beverly Hills. But then I must have

1511
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:43,560
Speaker 1: said something like oh shit, and Bobby says, what is it?

1512
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:46,400
Speaker 1: And I said, look at this. There was this tape

1513
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:50,120
Speaker 1: that said National General Productions on it. So I knew

1514
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:52,240
Speaker 1: it had to have something to do with this film,

1515
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:55,559
Speaker 1: So I said, can I take this? And he says, yeah, sure,

1516
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:57,479
Speaker 1: please take it. So we take it off to a

1517
01:26:57,520 --> 01:26:59,639
Speaker 1: studio and we put it on and what is it, Bob?

1518
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:04,160
Speaker 1: It is the sound from the press conference they've given

1519
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:06,000
Speaker 1: Bobby a copy of years ago. He didn't know what

1520
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:08,599
Speaker 1: was on it. He had never heard it. And so

1521
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:11,280
Speaker 1: now I have photos, now I have the sound, and

1522
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:15,599
Speaker 1: we could illustrate this. But then what I had done

1523
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:19,720
Speaker 1: was the first article that really slammed them in the counterculture.

1524
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 1: Of note was a Rolling Stone article written by David Felton,

1525
01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:26,600
Speaker 1: who was an award winning writer for Rolling Stone. He

1526
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:29,960
Speaker 1: did the Charles Manson article that won a Pulitzer Prize,

1527
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:33,719
Speaker 1: and so he's assigned to this and he doesn't like Blood,

1528
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:35,519
Speaker 1: Switt and Tears. He doesn't think they're part of the

1529
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:38,719
Speaker 1: counter culture. He doesn't think they're very interesting. And so

1530
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 1: he was at this press conference because he was running

1531
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:44,599
Speaker 1: the Rolling Stone office in LA at the time, and

1532
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:48,200
Speaker 1: he's just determined to go after them. So he takes

1533
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 1: every opportunity he has to write this very smug, snarky

1534
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:56,160
Speaker 1: article about this band, and unfortunately it had a real impact,

1535
01:27:56,160 --> 01:27:59,800
Speaker 1: because Rolling Stone had some real influence at that time,

1536
01:28:00,200 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 1: and he just trashes them. So I thought, well, it

1537
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:06,240
Speaker 1: would be interesting to have if we could find him,

1538
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 1: be interesting to have him talk about the article. I

1539
01:28:09,080 --> 01:28:10,600
Speaker 1: didn't know what he was going to say to me,

1540
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:14,120
Speaker 1: but we get him, We get him for an interview,

1541
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:18,800
Speaker 1: and he comes down and he was an alcohol He

1542
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:22,559
Speaker 1: was an alcoholic. He's been sober for twenty five years.

1543
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:25,439
Speaker 1: And he looks back at what he did in those

1544
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:28,960
Speaker 1: days and he says, you know, that sounds like me.

1545
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:31,519
Speaker 1: It was too smarmy, he said, But looking back at

1546
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:34,800
Speaker 1: it now, I was wrong. And I thought, wow, what

1547
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:36,760
Speaker 1: kind of you know, journalists will kind of do that

1548
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:38,200
Speaker 1: look back and say, you know something, I really made

1549
01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:40,519
Speaker 1: a mistake back then. And I just thought that was

1550
01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:43,280
Speaker 1: a wonderful moment in the film to sort of say,

1551
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:46,440
Speaker 1: in a way, he's standing in for all the counterculture

1552
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:50,560
Speaker 1: and all the mainstream articles that called them the fascist

1553
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:53,160
Speaker 1: rock band and all other things, to say, you know,

1554
01:28:53,200 --> 01:28:55,559
Speaker 1: some we were caught up in the moment. They didn't

1555
01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:57,840
Speaker 1: seem to be super hip, so we were going to

1556
01:28:57,920 --> 01:28:59,800
Speaker 1: go after him. But now, you know, looking back, I

1557
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 1: think that was a mistake. And I think that sort

1558
01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:04,760
Speaker 1: of again sets a tone for an attitude. What I'm

1559
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:07,800
Speaker 1: trying to do is put the audience back in this

1560
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:10,160
Speaker 1: time to help them understand what was going on and

1561
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:13,719
Speaker 1: how people were responding to them, and to know that

1562
01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:15,519
Speaker 1: this guy thinks they were wrong. I thought was a

1563
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:18,400
Speaker 1: really important piece of the jigsaw. He said, it sounds

1564
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:20,120
Speaker 1: like me I was a prick. It sounds like me

1565
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:31,439
Speaker 1: I was a prick back then. Yeah, okay, Bobby. To

1566
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:35,840
Speaker 1: what degree was the framework of the second album established

1567
01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:41,200
Speaker 1: by Al Cooper. We had been gigging already after the

1568
01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:44,840
Speaker 1: first album, and we were doing other songs, and Al

1569
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:47,439
Speaker 1: found another song I Love You More and You'll Ever

1570
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:51,120
Speaker 1: Know More and more, And we had songs that we

1571
01:29:51,160 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 1: would expand, like we'd play a song and then just

1572
01:29:54,320 --> 01:29:58,280
Speaker 1: solo on it and expand so there'd be another section

1573
01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:01,559
Speaker 1: to it. But now it's time to make a record.

1574
01:30:02,560 --> 01:30:06,639
Speaker 1: We had spent most of our time organizing a new band,

1575
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:11,040
Speaker 1: finding musicians, finding the shape of the band. But we

1576
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:14,639
Speaker 1: already had this material. And I remember a band meeting

1577
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:18,080
Speaker 1: where at this point I'm the band leader and I'm

1578
01:30:19,479 --> 01:30:21,800
Speaker 1: I'm putting things together, and it was great because Clive

1579
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:27,200
Speaker 1: Davis was fabulous, and he came to me after the

1580
01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:29,400
Speaker 1: band broke up. He said, what do you think? And

1581
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:31,599
Speaker 1: I said, I think we're going to be a great

1582
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 1: band and I think I'm going to put the thing together. Right.

1583
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:37,000
Speaker 1: He said, what do you need? I told it was

1584
01:30:37,040 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 1: like a ten thousand bucks or something. He said, oh,

1585
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:41,680
Speaker 1: I'll get it to you. I just so I can

1586
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:44,280
Speaker 1: pay some guys so we can rehearse and put it together.

1587
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:49,479
Speaker 1: So the real emphasis at that point was find the band,

1588
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:52,840
Speaker 1: finding musicians. Okay, now we have the band, we have

1589
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:57,240
Speaker 1: some songs that have spilled over into this new band,

1590
01:30:58,640 --> 01:31:01,599
Speaker 1: and we have a band meeting and I explain my

1591
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:03,599
Speaker 1: vision and I said, guys, I want to try and

1592
01:31:03,720 --> 01:31:07,760
Speaker 1: find songs that we all really like. And one of

1593
01:31:07,800 --> 01:31:10,280
Speaker 1: the band members just started laughing at me, saying, there,

1594
01:31:10,320 --> 01:31:12,960
Speaker 1: you'll never find a single song that everyone in this

1595
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:17,040
Speaker 1: band likes. There's no way. We come from completely different sources.

1596
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 1: This is not a neighborhood bank the kids that grew

1597
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:22,519
Speaker 1: up in a neighborhood. We're finding, you know, people from

1598
01:31:22,560 --> 01:31:24,640
Speaker 1: all over New York that we hear about that all

1599
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:27,439
Speaker 1: this guy's grave, you should try and get him. So

1600
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:33,559
Speaker 1: Steve is playing Eric Sati in his house Steve Katz,

1601
01:31:34,040 --> 01:31:38,639
Speaker 1: and it's just beautiful. So I take a copy of that.

1602
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 1: I love obviously, godb It's a Child, Billie Holiday's songs,

1603
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:47,120
Speaker 1: gorgeous song. To prove a point, and I come into

1604
01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:48,960
Speaker 1: the next meeting, I said, okay, I'm gonna play with

1605
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:51,840
Speaker 1: some songs. I play Eric Sati anyone not like this,

1606
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:56,479
Speaker 1: And it was no, that's not fair. I mean, I said,

1607
01:31:56,640 --> 01:31:58,920
Speaker 1: I said, wait, wait, and they play godbas A Child

1608
01:31:58,960 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 1: anyone not like this song. But that's not fair. It's

1609
01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:06,439
Speaker 1: like Godsachai said, no, it's fair. The difference is we

1610
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:10,559
Speaker 1: can play these songs other people can not in a

1611
01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:14,759
Speaker 1: popular band setting. So I just tried to find songs

1612
01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 1: that were great songs that we could add to the

1613
01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:20,599
Speaker 1: ones we already had that everyone in the band liked.

1614
01:32:21,200 --> 01:32:25,200
Speaker 1: And it was an opportunity because the whole concept of

1615
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:29,479
Speaker 1: bluss wed Tier is really for me was in every

1616
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:33,120
Speaker 1: iteration of the band, it's it's it's a it's a

1617
01:32:33,240 --> 01:32:39,840
Speaker 1: concept as let's find great songs with these musicians, how

1618
01:32:39,880 --> 01:32:42,559
Speaker 1: do we make these songs work for us? And it's

1619
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:46,240
Speaker 1: the arrangers. So we had two excellent arrangers in the band,

1620
01:32:46,600 --> 01:32:49,479
Speaker 1: Dick Halligan and for Elipsians, and I would have signed

1621
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:52,599
Speaker 1: to each a song that I thought that they could arrange.

1622
01:32:53,280 --> 01:32:56,280
Speaker 1: And that was the fun for us, was to find

1623
01:32:56,320 --> 01:32:59,240
Speaker 1: a way to take these songs and and really do

1624
01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:03,080
Speaker 1: them differently that we could play them and have fun

1625
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:06,120
Speaker 1: playing them. And that was that was it. To this day,

1626
01:33:06,160 --> 01:33:08,960
Speaker 1: there's a Blood Sweat and Tears. I'm still involved with them.

1627
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:14,040
Speaker 1: I'm trying to find material and finding great arranges to

1628
01:33:14,080 --> 01:33:17,400
Speaker 1: work with, and there a lot better than we were

1629
01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:20,479
Speaker 1: right now. There's some great musicians right now. Okay, it's

1630
01:33:20,520 --> 01:33:24,880
Speaker 1: implied in the film that the downfall of Blood, Sweat

1631
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 1: and Tears was the result of that press conference in

1632
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:34,439
Speaker 1: the press that ultimately came out from it. Bobby, what

1633
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:37,160
Speaker 1: do you think really happened? You know, what do we know?

1634
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:42,200
Speaker 1: The second album was mega successful, was played a long time.

1635
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:45,360
Speaker 1: Third album did not come out that soon. All right,

1636
01:33:45,479 --> 01:33:48,320
Speaker 1: big point. That's a great point. Actually, good for you,

1637
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:53,000
Speaker 1: that's a great point. We had a new manager and wait,

1638
01:33:53,080 --> 01:33:55,719
Speaker 1: stop for one second. Okay, what happened to this? Larry

1639
01:33:55,760 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 1: Green Black Alive Gold Black, excuse me? I kind of

1640
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:05,679
Speaker 1: said earlier. Our accountant caught him trying to steal something

1641
01:34:05,680 --> 01:34:09,640
Speaker 1: and he was fired and since then he had passed away.

1642
01:34:09,720 --> 01:34:11,880
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what he did right afterwards, but there

1643
01:34:11,920 --> 01:34:14,479
Speaker 1: was no anger or anything, like you knew this was

1644
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:16,439
Speaker 1: going to happen. It was a matter of time and

1645
01:34:16,479 --> 01:34:19,040
Speaker 1: that was okay. So you have this new manager, right,

1646
01:34:19,560 --> 01:34:22,800
Speaker 1: and Paul Simon and I have been friends for a

1647
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:26,160
Speaker 1: very long time, and I said, you know, I like

1648
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:28,960
Speaker 1: your manager. He was more Lewis fantastic. He's just really great.

1649
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:32,400
Speaker 1: He say, oh man, yeah, this is wonderful. Let's get him.

1650
01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:36,040
Speaker 1: So so the deal that's structured is he gets a

1651
01:34:36,160 --> 01:34:41,799
Speaker 1: piece a significant as a management piece of our touring,

1652
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:43,920
Speaker 1: but not of the records that he has nothing to

1653
01:34:43,960 --> 01:34:46,320
Speaker 1: do with. That was it's a whole different thing. So

1654
01:34:46,360 --> 01:34:50,000
Speaker 1: he figures, well, I'll just tour him and he had

1655
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:54,559
Speaker 1: us touring forever. We're on the road forever, and I'm

1656
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:57,080
Speaker 1: knowing and Clive and I have friends, is like, when

1657
01:34:57,080 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 1: don't gonna make a record? It's like, I know, And

1658
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:01,240
Speaker 1: we got to do so, and we didn't have time

1659
01:35:01,280 --> 01:35:06,559
Speaker 1: to really put together all new material. We had about

1660
01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:09,600
Speaker 1: half of the stuff was new and half was you know,

1661
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:15,200
Speaker 1: things that Al had had had picked and we ended

1662
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:18,439
Speaker 1: up doing the record kind of fast, like okay, you know,

1663
01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:20,920
Speaker 1: let's do it now, finally we can do it. And

1664
01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:25,240
Speaker 1: you're right, that was that was I mean, we really

1665
01:35:25,240 --> 01:35:28,000
Speaker 1: should have had an album out probably five months sooner.

1666
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:32,360
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. And everyone around us felt the same way,

1667
01:35:32,360 --> 01:35:35,160
Speaker 1: except the manager. And I asked Paul and day I said,

1668
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:39,559
Speaker 1: so he so he's a great manager. He says, yeah,

1669
01:35:39,560 --> 01:35:42,120
Speaker 1: he does everything I tell him. I went, oh Jesus, Paul,

1670
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:45,600
Speaker 1: why did a new manage us? Oh? Now, he was

1671
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:48,120
Speaker 1: a great guy, but he had an agenda and what

1672
01:35:48,280 --> 01:35:50,880
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with us recording. But but if

1673
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:55,960
Speaker 1: you're asking what the downfall was anytime you hit those

1674
01:35:56,040 --> 01:35:59,680
Speaker 1: heights and you have a very specific sound, horns and

1675
01:35:59,760 --> 01:36:04,000
Speaker 1: day Vid Clayton Thomas's voice. We were played all the

1676
01:36:04,080 --> 01:36:06,920
Speaker 1: time on every station. We were played on R and

1677
01:36:06,960 --> 01:36:12,080
Speaker 1: B stations, country stations, classical stations, and they picked certain

1678
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:16,439
Speaker 1: songs to play that would fit their programming. And I

1679
01:36:16,479 --> 01:36:19,559
Speaker 1: think when you hear so much of one thing, and

1680
01:36:20,920 --> 01:36:22,639
Speaker 1: if you're a kid and you get in a cab

1681
01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:25,280
Speaker 1: and the cab has a radio on, and pose when

1682
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:28,880
Speaker 1: and plose when tiers song comes on and the cab

1683
01:36:28,960 --> 01:36:31,000
Speaker 1: driver turns around and says, now there's a band I

1684
01:36:31,040 --> 01:36:33,640
Speaker 1: like here, immediately turned off. I don't want you to

1685
01:36:33,720 --> 01:36:38,000
Speaker 1: like this, bense my band. So we became so popular,

1686
01:36:38,120 --> 01:36:42,600
Speaker 1: and there was so much in this condensed, you know,

1687
01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:47,040
Speaker 1: time period that was harmful, but that Eastern European tour

1688
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:51,160
Speaker 1: that triggered everything because that was a chance for anyone

1689
01:36:51,240 --> 01:36:53,880
Speaker 1: that wanted to shoot down a band that was on top,

1690
01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:57,040
Speaker 1: on top, that gave them the opportunity that was That

1691
01:36:57,120 --> 01:37:02,000
Speaker 1: was easily the reason a word we use a lot

1692
01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:06,479
Speaker 1: today as zeitgeist, and they really captured the zeitgeist back then.

1693
01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:09,720
Speaker 1: But those moments are fleeting, and those moments are fragile,

1694
01:37:10,400 --> 01:37:15,160
Speaker 1: and the littlest thing can throw it all off, and

1695
01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:18,720
Speaker 1: that's what the tour did. And Bobby and I may

1696
01:37:18,720 --> 01:37:22,240
Speaker 1: have slightly different opinions here, but what I feel happened

1697
01:37:22,320 --> 01:37:24,519
Speaker 1: is that, yes, it was Vegas, Yes it was Woodstock,

1698
01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:27,760
Speaker 1: Yes it was they were ubiquitous, But I think it

1699
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:31,920
Speaker 1: also was that this experience in Eastern Europe and what

1700
01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:34,639
Speaker 1: happened to them when they got back, and how they

1701
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:37,160
Speaker 1: were slammed by the right and the left, which is

1702
01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:40,719
Speaker 1: a unique situation. Usually you get it from one side

1703
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:44,160
Speaker 1: or the other. They got it from both sides, and

1704
01:37:44,760 --> 01:37:48,519
Speaker 1: I think that exacerbated the personality conflicts within the band,

1705
01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:51,519
Speaker 1: and I think they started to fracture in terms of

1706
01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:53,240
Speaker 1: what are we going to play on stage, how are

1707
01:37:53,240 --> 01:37:54,680
Speaker 1: we going to play on stage? What are we going

1708
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 1: to record, how are we going to record it? All

1709
01:37:56,920 --> 01:37:59,439
Speaker 1: of that started to happen. And then eighteen months after

1710
01:37:59,479 --> 01:38:03,160
Speaker 1: they got back, David and Fred and Dick leave. The

1711
01:38:03,280 --> 01:38:08,040
Speaker 1: next year Steve and Jim leave. Bobby soldiered on brilliantly,

1712
01:38:09,120 --> 01:38:12,479
Speaker 1: but the moment was gone. The zeitgeist was gone, and

1713
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:17,080
Speaker 1: I do look back at the Eastern European tour as

1714
01:38:17,200 --> 01:38:20,200
Speaker 1: being the real turning point for the band. We did

1715
01:38:20,280 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 1: not disagree on any of that. Okay, how did this

1716
01:38:26,479 --> 01:38:29,160
Speaker 1: end up being a theatrical film? How did you end

1717
01:38:29,240 --> 01:38:32,080
Speaker 1: up selling it? Tell me about the distribution? Go ahead,

1718
01:38:32,080 --> 01:38:36,400
Speaker 1: thank you. I always envisioned this as a feature doc.

1719
01:38:36,479 --> 01:38:38,479
Speaker 1: In fact, most of the times I start off with

1720
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:40,960
Speaker 1: a project, I am thinking this is going to be

1721
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:44,400
Speaker 1: a feature doc because I have this experience us versus

1722
01:38:44,439 --> 01:38:46,559
Speaker 1: John Lennon, Who is Harry Nilson? Why is everybody talking

1723
01:38:46,600 --> 01:38:49,200
Speaker 1: about him? Chasing train? They were all feature doc so

1724
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:52,479
Speaker 1: I'm always thinking that sort of ninety to one hundred

1725
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:54,519
Speaker 1: and ten minute version of how to tell the story.

1726
01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:56,600
Speaker 1: Story's got to be strong enough, and this one was.

1727
01:38:56,920 --> 01:38:59,760
Speaker 1: So I always thought of it as being a feature doc.

1728
01:39:01,080 --> 01:39:05,120
Speaker 1: Because we were financed, fully financed upfront by James Bryant,

1729
01:39:05,360 --> 01:39:10,400
Speaker 1: one of the best bosses I've ever had. We could

1730
01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:12,160
Speaker 1: make I could make the film I wanted to make,

1731
01:39:12,439 --> 01:39:15,640
Speaker 1: and then armed with a finished product, we can go

1732
01:39:15,680 --> 01:39:19,960
Speaker 1: to these young buyers at at the platform services or

1733
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:22,720
Speaker 1: at the theaters. They don't have to guess what it is.

1734
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:24,920
Speaker 1: They can look at the film and see what it is.

1735
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:26,720
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, you don't have to go

1736
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:28,360
Speaker 1: there and say, well, it's gonna have this, It's gonna

1737
01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 1: have this, It's gonna have this, and it's like, no,

1738
01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:33,559
Speaker 1: we can just show it to you. So I always

1739
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:36,280
Speaker 1: thought this is what it was gonna be. I'd had

1740
01:39:36,280 --> 01:39:40,679
Speaker 1: a great experience with a distributor Abrama Rama and Richard Abrama,

1741
01:39:40,720 --> 01:39:43,120
Speaker 1: which is the head guy, and love him, and so

1742
01:39:43,160 --> 01:39:45,800
Speaker 1: I showed him the film and I said, does this

1743
01:39:45,920 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 1: have theatrical legs? I hope it does, because this is

1744
01:39:48,120 --> 01:39:49,960
Speaker 1: what I want to want it to do with it,

1745
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:52,559
Speaker 1: and He just went nuts for it. He just thought

1746
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:56,800
Speaker 1: this was great and I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1747
01:39:56,840 --> 01:40:02,439
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. So we put together marketing budget and we've

1748
01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:06,200
Speaker 1: gone with Richard and here we are. We opened Theatrically

1749
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:09,080
Speaker 1: in New York on March twenty fourth for a week

1750
01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 1: at the Quad Cinema. We opened in LA the next

1751
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:15,760
Speaker 1: week at the Lemley Monica Film Center for a week.

1752
01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:19,479
Speaker 1: And now I counted this morning. Bobby and I hadn't

1753
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:21,320
Speaker 1: even talked about this. I counted this morning. We got

1754
01:40:21,360 --> 01:40:25,200
Speaker 1: fifty theaters across the country now and growing thanks to

1755
01:40:25,240 --> 01:40:29,000
Speaker 1: you and a number of other buzz that we're getting.

1756
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:31,680
Speaker 1: People are hearing about this film. They want to see it,

1757
01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:35,080
Speaker 1: and I think it's that kind of thing that it's

1758
01:40:35,080 --> 01:40:40,000
Speaker 1: a compelling enough story that it may may bring people

1759
01:40:40,040 --> 01:40:43,679
Speaker 1: back to the theaters. And that's what we wanted to do. Okay,

1760
01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:48,800
Speaker 1: we all know that primary viewership is on the flat screen. Yeah,

1761
01:40:48,840 --> 01:40:51,960
Speaker 1: So have you already made a TV distribution deal or

1762
01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:54,439
Speaker 1: you're waiting to see how it works theatrically. Yeah, we

1763
01:40:54,520 --> 01:40:55,880
Speaker 1: wanted to wait to see how it was going to

1764
01:40:55,960 --> 01:41:00,240
Speaker 1: turn out theatrically because there's so much out there's so

1765
01:41:00,280 --> 01:41:03,639
Speaker 1: much noise, there's so much product out there. We felt

1766
01:41:03,640 --> 01:41:07,839
Speaker 1: we wanted to distinguish ourselves, so we bet on ourselves.

1767
01:41:07,920 --> 01:41:09,559
Speaker 1: We bet that we were going to get good buzz.

1768
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:12,519
Speaker 1: We're betting that we're going to get good reviews, and

1769
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:15,000
Speaker 1: then armed with that, we will go to the streamers

1770
01:41:15,240 --> 01:41:18,000
Speaker 1: and say, look, you got to have this because everybody

1771
01:41:18,080 --> 01:41:22,040
Speaker 1: is talking about it. So we have not talked to

1772
01:41:22,040 --> 01:41:24,280
Speaker 1: any of the streamers yet. Actually I got an inquiry

1773
01:41:24,320 --> 01:41:26,320
Speaker 1: the other day from one that we slipped them a

1774
01:41:26,360 --> 01:41:28,400
Speaker 1: copy of it to see if they might want to

1775
01:41:28,400 --> 01:41:30,600
Speaker 1: make a preemptive bid. So we're waiting to see what

1776
01:41:30,680 --> 01:41:33,400
Speaker 1: happens there. But I think it will end up on

1777
01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:36,439
Speaker 1: a very good streamer, just not sure which one at

1778
01:41:36,439 --> 01:41:41,440
Speaker 1: the moment. Okay, Bobby, going back to the band, explain

1779
01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 1: to me the economics of a band of eight or

1780
01:41:44,320 --> 01:41:47,639
Speaker 1: nine people's that doesn't people that don't generally speaking even

1781
01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:51,200
Speaker 1: write their own songs. Where is the money and how

1782
01:41:51,240 --> 01:41:54,360
Speaker 1: do you end up owning the name Blood, Sweat and Tears.

1783
01:41:55,160 --> 01:41:58,760
Speaker 1: When we began, that lawyer that I spoke about that

1784
01:41:58,840 --> 01:42:03,560
Speaker 1: found the Slowy Gobla said you need an internal employment

1785
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:08,679
Speaker 1: agreement agreement employee agreement. So there were shares like like

1786
01:42:08,680 --> 01:42:13,080
Speaker 1: like a corporation, and each person would get a share

1787
01:42:13,240 --> 01:42:15,840
Speaker 1: of the band. If I think five of us were

1788
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:21,639
Speaker 1: the primary guys, and then well that begs a question.

1789
01:42:21,640 --> 01:42:26,479
Speaker 1: Were the other four or three getting paid less? No? No, no,

1790
01:42:26,479 --> 01:42:28,439
Speaker 1: we all got paid exactly the same amount of money.

1791
01:42:28,439 --> 01:42:32,240
Speaker 1: It was just the ownership concept. So so now what

1792
01:42:32,360 --> 01:42:37,000
Speaker 1: happens is we have this agreement and the way it structured,

1793
01:42:37,080 --> 01:42:40,360
Speaker 1: if anyone leaves the band, whatever the band is worth

1794
01:42:40,360 --> 01:42:44,599
Speaker 1: at that moment, whatever stuff we have, the value of it,

1795
01:42:45,080 --> 01:42:49,920
Speaker 1: they get that money. They have royalties ongoing obviously, and

1796
01:42:50,360 --> 01:42:52,800
Speaker 1: they leave and then the share, that share goes back

1797
01:42:52,840 --> 01:42:57,880
Speaker 1: to the pot. Eventually, one day I realized there's nobody left.

1798
01:42:59,040 --> 01:43:02,000
Speaker 1: And it's so funny because I have friends like all,

1799
01:43:02,080 --> 01:43:04,559
Speaker 1: you were really smart, man, you had it all worked out.

1800
01:43:04,640 --> 01:43:07,880
Speaker 1: I had nothing worked out. It's just it landed on me.

1801
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:10,720
Speaker 1: I said, Oh, man, but I love I love the

1802
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:14,200
Speaker 1: idea of the band. I always love the idea of

1803
01:43:14,280 --> 01:43:18,080
Speaker 1: having a band that would play anything, could play anything,

1804
01:43:18,600 --> 01:43:22,080
Speaker 1: and and be loose and have wonderful musicians. That was

1805
01:43:22,280 --> 01:43:25,080
Speaker 1: that was a concept in my head from from day one.

1806
01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:28,960
Speaker 1: So uh, that's how I ended up with it. I

1807
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:35,080
Speaker 1: didn't have a master plan, you know. Okay, so eventually

1808
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:38,040
Speaker 1: you stopped playing in the men and you go to

1809
01:43:38,080 --> 01:43:42,679
Speaker 1: the other side. Okay, so I love this guy. I'm sorry,

1810
01:43:43,040 --> 01:43:46,920
Speaker 1: I'm in loving your questions because they're opening up a

1811
01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:52,040
Speaker 1: Pandora's box for me. Okay. So what happens is h

1812
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:54,719
Speaker 1: I stopped producing. I have a studio in my house

1813
01:43:56,439 --> 01:44:01,800
Speaker 1: up in Rockland County, UM. The band is playing in Florida.

1814
01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:06,640
Speaker 1: I'm playing softball with a club team and there's an outfielder,

1815
01:44:07,040 --> 01:44:10,000
Speaker 1: little blonde girl playing center field. I'm playing left field,

1816
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:12,800
Speaker 1: and she has her hands in her mit and her

1817
01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:15,400
Speaker 1: hand on her knees, going bad bad. I hate bad bad,

1818
01:44:15,479 --> 01:44:18,880
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, wow, this goes really into it. So

1819
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:21,680
Speaker 1: we go back to this kind of dugout situation and

1820
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:24,760
Speaker 1: I say, I said, who are you? She goes, oh,

1821
01:44:24,800 --> 01:44:26,320
Speaker 1: I work at the club. I said, I never saw

1822
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:28,839
Speaker 1: you there because while I'm married and I have kids,

1823
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:32,800
Speaker 1: pause to the best bass player in the world. And

1824
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:36,760
Speaker 1: my comment is, oh, that's very sweet of you. I

1825
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:38,800
Speaker 1: hope if I get married one day my wife thinks

1826
01:44:38,800 --> 01:44:42,400
Speaker 1: I'm a good I'm the best drop I'm not. But no, no,

1827
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:44,439
Speaker 1: she's no, he really is. I said, of course, and

1828
01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:47,639
Speaker 1: then my New York arrogance kicks in and I go, oh, really,

1829
01:44:47,680 --> 01:44:49,720
Speaker 1: if I go to your house, Now, what's on your turntable?

1830
01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:53,760
Speaker 1: She says, Giant Steps, said Coltrane's Giant Steps. She goes, yeah,

1831
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:56,519
Speaker 1: Now I take it another step. So if you're listening

1832
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,120
Speaker 1: to it, can you tell me while he's soloing when

1833
01:44:59,160 --> 01:45:01,040
Speaker 1: the chorus began, and she goes, yeah, I said, I

1834
01:45:01,120 --> 01:45:05,320
Speaker 1: got to meet your husband. Husband's Joco Pastorius. So so

1835
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:09,800
Speaker 1: that's how I meet Jocko. And I have a relationship

1836
01:45:10,200 --> 01:45:14,280
Speaker 1: with Steve Popovich, who was head of promotion in Cleveland

1837
01:45:14,640 --> 01:45:16,920
Speaker 1: when I was out there, and he's the most passionate guy.

1838
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:18,360
Speaker 1: And I told Climb and I came back and said,

1839
01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:21,479
Speaker 1: you've got a guy in Cleveland that's fantastic, you know,

1840
01:45:21,520 --> 01:45:24,599
Speaker 1: bring him here, he'd be great. He did. He ends

1841
01:45:24,680 --> 01:45:27,240
Speaker 1: up being head of A and R for Epic Records.

1842
01:45:27,840 --> 01:45:30,439
Speaker 1: They call me and say, we want to make a

1843
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:32,680
Speaker 1: production deal with you because we know you love to

1844
01:45:32,680 --> 01:45:34,479
Speaker 1: produce and you're going to go somewhere else. We don't

1845
01:45:34,520 --> 01:45:39,120
Speaker 1: want that. We want you in the group. So I

1846
01:45:39,160 --> 01:45:41,439
Speaker 1: get it. What's called a put Like anything I want

1847
01:45:41,439 --> 01:45:43,479
Speaker 1: to produce, I can produce and they'll you know, I

1848
01:45:43,520 --> 01:45:46,880
Speaker 1: mean unlyst it's insane and you know, billion dollars. And

1849
01:45:46,920 --> 01:45:50,240
Speaker 1: I said, okay, I I have something I want to produce.

1850
01:45:50,880 --> 01:45:53,960
Speaker 1: Steve used to play bass. His head of marketing is

1851
01:45:54,479 --> 01:45:58,519
Speaker 1: a guy named a guy named Jim Terrell, bass player.

1852
01:45:58,560 --> 01:46:00,479
Speaker 1: I used to play with him. He was a very

1853
01:46:00,479 --> 01:46:03,800
Speaker 1: good bass player, he said of marketing. And I'm thinking, God,

1854
01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:07,559
Speaker 1: this two bass players, this is even easier. So I said, okay,

1855
01:46:07,600 --> 01:46:11,439
Speaker 1: I have something. It's a bass player. Okay, I said, great,

1856
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:14,920
Speaker 1: like we hear, I said sure. I said, so I'm

1857
01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:16,639
Speaker 1: gonna do an album with a bass player and then

1858
01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:20,800
Speaker 1: an accordion. Looking at me, I said, I'm just kidding

1859
01:46:20,800 --> 01:46:23,360
Speaker 1: about the accordion. But this guy is a great bass player.

1860
01:46:23,560 --> 01:46:26,559
Speaker 1: So I end up you're producing and enjoying the hell

1861
01:46:26,560 --> 01:46:29,599
Speaker 1: out of that. And I have Jocko in my house.

1862
01:46:29,600 --> 01:46:31,759
Speaker 1: He's living with me, and we're coming up with ideas

1863
01:46:31,760 --> 01:46:34,479
Speaker 1: how to make an album of a bass player, which

1864
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:38,160
Speaker 1: ain't the easiest thing to do. So anyway, back to

1865
01:46:38,160 --> 01:46:43,360
Speaker 1: your question. So these executives at CBS Records at the time,

1866
01:46:43,400 --> 01:46:48,439
Speaker 1: now Sony saw my interest in producing and they and

1867
01:46:48,600 --> 01:46:51,160
Speaker 1: they all of a sudden. Rona Lexenberg, who's now the

1868
01:46:51,240 --> 01:46:54,200
Speaker 1: head of Epic Records, who was head of promotion for

1869
01:46:54,240 --> 01:46:57,360
Speaker 1: Columbia Records and a friend of mine. He came to

1870
01:46:57,439 --> 01:47:00,599
Speaker 1: me and said, how'd you like to be the head

1871
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:04,400
Speaker 1: of an r of Epic Records in California. I said,

1872
01:47:04,479 --> 01:47:08,280
Speaker 1: as much as my eye teeth extracted, I said, why

1873
01:47:08,320 --> 01:47:10,360
Speaker 1: in the world would I want to do that? It

1874
01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:12,040
Speaker 1: was like the last thing. And I said, no, But

1875
01:47:12,080 --> 01:47:13,720
Speaker 1: you'd be great at it. You'd be I said, but

1876
01:47:13,960 --> 01:47:17,240
Speaker 1: I you know, I get why it would be nice

1877
01:47:17,240 --> 01:47:19,320
Speaker 1: for you, but I have no interest, first of all,

1878
01:47:19,360 --> 01:47:22,120
Speaker 1: in being in California at all. And I have no

1879
01:47:22,240 --> 01:47:25,240
Speaker 1: And so it started out that way. And then Bruce Lunvoll,

1880
01:47:25,280 --> 01:47:28,280
Speaker 1: who was my product manager epliswent in tears. He's now

1881
01:47:28,360 --> 01:47:30,479
Speaker 1: head of all of CBS, and he says, man, you

1882
01:47:30,479 --> 01:47:32,320
Speaker 1: should do it and be fun. I figure, I'll do

1883
01:47:32,320 --> 01:47:35,320
Speaker 1: it for six months, like a couple of months. It's

1884
01:47:35,360 --> 01:47:38,400
Speaker 1: a challenge. I love new stuff to do. But the

1885
01:47:38,439 --> 01:47:43,920
Speaker 1: most important thing, secretly, I'm infiltrating. I'm thinking, you know what,

1886
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:46,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to that side. I can help I can

1887
01:47:46,680 --> 01:47:49,639
Speaker 1: actually help artists. I can bail him out of bad deals.

1888
01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:52,920
Speaker 1: I even I can do things to help them. And

1889
01:47:52,960 --> 01:47:55,479
Speaker 1: at the time, Minnie Ripertson was a dear friend and

1890
01:47:55,560 --> 01:47:57,519
Speaker 1: her husband was a dear friend. She was signed to Epic.

1891
01:47:58,040 --> 01:48:00,559
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, I gotta do this. I actually live

1892
01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:02,280
Speaker 1: where I live because it was near where they live

1893
01:48:03,640 --> 01:48:07,559
Speaker 1: lived at that time, and so I took the gig

1894
01:48:07,640 --> 01:48:10,479
Speaker 1: just thinking I'm gonna help people, this will be fun,

1895
01:48:10,640 --> 01:48:14,600
Speaker 1: and I'm out of here in six months. I never left. Okay,

1896
01:48:15,400 --> 01:48:18,760
Speaker 1: you stopped playing drums? Did you miss Yeah? You missed it?

1897
01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:22,200
Speaker 1: When was How do you ever played drums again? Okay?

1898
01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:26,400
Speaker 1: So I'm playing with the band. It's I guess nineteen

1899
01:48:26,439 --> 01:48:30,800
Speaker 1: seventy five. Ish. I add a percussionist, Donna Lias, fantastic

1900
01:48:31,560 --> 01:48:34,320
Speaker 1: Jocko's in the band at this point, just you know,

1901
01:48:34,479 --> 01:48:36,960
Speaker 1: like like for a little while. Larry Willis is playing

1902
01:48:38,200 --> 01:48:40,559
Speaker 1: in the band of piano and Mike Sterns on guitar.

1903
01:48:40,640 --> 01:48:44,120
Speaker 1: The band's unbelievably good, and I'm actually playing well at

1904
01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:45,960
Speaker 1: this point because I have no choice. These guys are

1905
01:48:45,960 --> 01:48:49,760
Speaker 1: so good. So I see Donna Lias on percussion, and

1906
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:51,800
Speaker 1: I go, let's switch. And Don's a great drummer, and

1907
01:48:51,920 --> 01:48:53,200
Speaker 1: he looks at me, no, no, no no, I said, come on,

1908
01:48:53,200 --> 01:48:55,840
Speaker 1: come on, come on, switch. I forced him to sit

1909
01:48:55,880 --> 01:48:57,400
Speaker 1: at the drums. I don't know what. I don't know

1910
01:48:57,439 --> 01:49:00,000
Speaker 1: how to play conga drums. I'm horrible, and I'm sitting

1911
01:49:00,200 --> 01:49:02,960
Speaker 1: like an idiot, like you know, like slapping away, and

1912
01:49:03,040 --> 01:49:05,920
Speaker 1: he's killing He's playing great. And it occurred to me,

1913
01:49:07,000 --> 01:49:08,880
Speaker 1: I have a studio in my house in New York.

1914
01:49:09,360 --> 01:49:12,559
Speaker 1: I love to produce. Why am I out here? He

1915
01:49:12,760 --> 01:49:15,360
Speaker 1: sounds great, the band is great. They don't need me

1916
01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:18,640
Speaker 1: at all. And I just said, you know what, this

1917
01:49:18,720 --> 01:49:21,960
Speaker 1: is my last gig. You got it, and I left.

1918
01:49:22,320 --> 01:49:25,200
Speaker 1: I got a call from the manager saying, you have

1919
01:49:25,240 --> 01:49:26,680
Speaker 1: to do one more gig. I sas, what do you

1920
01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:29,200
Speaker 1: mean while there's a guy out in Nassau at the

1921
01:49:29,280 --> 01:49:32,639
Speaker 1: coliseum and he's not like he's gonna drop us unless

1922
01:49:32,640 --> 01:49:34,920
Speaker 1: you're on the gig. I said, oh jeezus. And I

1923
01:49:34,920 --> 01:49:38,120
Speaker 1: had already not played for a few months. I said, okay,

1924
01:49:38,160 --> 01:49:40,800
Speaker 1: I'll do it. And again, you know, if there's a god,

1925
01:49:40,880 --> 01:49:44,679
Speaker 1: I don't know, but certainly something happened. I sit down,

1926
01:49:45,280 --> 01:49:49,680
Speaker 1: like to do this gig. You know, I'm already not

1927
01:49:49,800 --> 01:49:54,559
Speaker 1: playing a lot, and my throne the seat I sit

1928
01:49:54,640 --> 01:49:58,320
Speaker 1: on collapses. Then the symbol stand just dropped, like symbol

1929
01:49:58,360 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 1: start dropping, snared ROMs a hole in it everything, and

1930
01:50:01,520 --> 01:50:04,000
Speaker 1: there's a new road. He has no idea what he's doing.

1931
01:50:04,320 --> 01:50:06,559
Speaker 1: That's a calamity. And I'm thinking, oh, this is this

1932
01:50:06,640 --> 01:50:09,160
Speaker 1: is like Fred vomiting on me. This is this is

1933
01:50:09,200 --> 01:50:13,280
Speaker 1: my last game. And I really don't miss it at all,

1934
01:50:13,320 --> 01:50:15,639
Speaker 1: because if I did, i'd play. There's no one saying

1935
01:50:15,640 --> 01:50:20,000
Speaker 1: you can't play anymore. But I'm so interested in everything

1936
01:50:20,080 --> 01:50:25,599
Speaker 1: else about music and recording and finding artists and working

1937
01:50:25,600 --> 01:50:27,800
Speaker 1: with people in the studio. That's to me the most

1938
01:50:27,840 --> 01:50:32,519
Speaker 1: exciting thing. And really it almost always was okay on

1939
01:50:32,680 --> 01:50:37,439
Speaker 1: these records. I'm sure your deal is cross collateralized. Ever

1940
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:41,400
Speaker 1: see any royalties on those hit records? Another great question.

1941
01:50:41,520 --> 01:50:47,559
Speaker 1: So I end up leaving Epic after every about a

1942
01:50:47,600 --> 01:50:51,640
Speaker 1: year and a half, and Capitol Records kind of you know,

1943
01:50:51,720 --> 01:50:53,960
Speaker 1: gets me and they say we need you here, we

1944
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:58,519
Speaker 1: need you. So I go there and end up back.

1945
01:50:58,760 --> 01:51:00,519
Speaker 1: Well there's a long story between mean, I end up

1946
01:51:00,560 --> 01:51:03,800
Speaker 1: on television for about five years, but then I come

1947
01:51:04,400 --> 01:51:08,479
Speaker 1: I come back. I get offered a job a creative

1948
01:51:08,520 --> 01:51:12,519
Speaker 1: development with which like a friend of mine coined that.

1949
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:14,760
Speaker 1: I said, what does that mean? He goes, nothing, It

1950
01:51:14,800 --> 01:51:17,240
Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything. But they want to hire you so badly.

1951
01:51:17,360 --> 01:51:19,960
Speaker 1: Just take the gig. I said, all right, so I

1952
01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:23,400
Speaker 1: go back. Just now it's Sony, but I'm not really

1953
01:51:23,439 --> 01:51:28,920
Speaker 1: reporting to a label. I'm actually just Sony. They didn't

1954
01:51:29,200 --> 01:51:31,640
Speaker 1: really structure a deal where I had to report in.

1955
01:51:32,120 --> 01:51:33,840
Speaker 1: I could do what I wanted to do, which was

1956
01:51:34,080 --> 01:51:36,720
Speaker 1: exactly the way I wanted to work, because otherwise, at

1957
01:51:36,720 --> 01:51:38,519
Speaker 1: this point, you know, I don't want to do it.

1958
01:51:39,200 --> 01:51:45,040
Speaker 1: So it was super enjoyable. I got the question. I

1959
01:51:45,080 --> 01:51:49,639
Speaker 1: just went Blounts went in tears royalties. Right. So luckily,

1960
01:51:50,720 --> 01:51:56,520
Speaker 1: since I have an executive job. Now I meet Scott Pascucci.

1961
01:51:57,320 --> 01:52:01,280
Speaker 1: He is the I think that they had lawyer out here,

1962
01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:04,720
Speaker 1: and he's just a fabulous guy. And I sit with him.

1963
01:52:04,760 --> 01:52:06,920
Speaker 1: I said, Scott, I don't know if the guys are

1964
01:52:06,920 --> 01:52:09,200
Speaker 1: getting paid. I don't know what's going on. I haven't

1965
01:52:09,240 --> 01:52:14,080
Speaker 1: tracked this thing at all. Can you help me? He said, yeah,

1966
01:52:14,280 --> 01:52:16,720
Speaker 1: speak to this woman. I speak to a woman and

1967
01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:18,840
Speaker 1: I sit down with her and tell her who played

1968
01:52:18,880 --> 01:52:23,439
Speaker 1: on what everything that anyone would have done on any record.

1969
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:26,320
Speaker 1: I said, please get these people paid. She goes, okay,

1970
01:52:26,840 --> 01:52:30,479
Speaker 1: it was the first time because in the first place,

1971
01:52:30,520 --> 01:52:34,760
Speaker 1: our deal was horrible to begin with, like nothing, and

1972
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:37,320
Speaker 1: then we split it with a lot of people, so

1973
01:52:37,439 --> 01:52:39,719
Speaker 1: no one really expected anything but what they were doing

1974
01:52:40,720 --> 01:52:43,479
Speaker 1: at the record company like there'd be a new version

1975
01:52:43,520 --> 01:52:46,680
Speaker 1: of a Blood, Sweat and Tears greatest hit. So I'm

1976
01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:49,719
Speaker 1: like newly mastered, but no one came to me and said,

1977
01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:54,040
Speaker 1: we'd like to put this out and we want to

1978
01:52:54,120 --> 01:52:58,639
Speaker 1: use our mastering. And all of a sudden, I started realizing,

1979
01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:02,960
Speaker 1: wait a minute, no one's asking me without permission. They

1980
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:05,920
Speaker 1: keep finding ways to charge us more money. I said,

1981
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:08,439
Speaker 1: why are we being charged money? We haven't played together

1982
01:53:08,560 --> 01:53:11,680
Speaker 1: in twenty years, and you're finding ways to charge us

1983
01:53:11,720 --> 01:53:16,280
Speaker 1: money for what. There's no advances? What, oh like the

1984
01:53:16,320 --> 01:53:19,360
Speaker 1: cost of this new version of this record? I said,

1985
01:53:19,800 --> 01:53:23,240
Speaker 1: enough because and now I actually I have a day

1986
01:53:23,240 --> 01:53:26,400
Speaker 1: gig that gives me enough power that I can call

1987
01:53:26,479 --> 01:53:29,120
Speaker 1: someone say you can't do this anymore. So all of

1988
01:53:29,160 --> 01:53:31,120
Speaker 1: a sudden, the guy, I mean not a lot of money,

1989
01:53:31,160 --> 01:53:34,439
Speaker 1: but the guys starting started to get paid. And one

1990
01:53:34,520 --> 01:53:38,160
Speaker 1: member of the band, guy Chuck Winfield, called me and said, man,

1991
01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:40,960
Speaker 1: it had to be you this first time I saw

1992
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:44,040
Speaker 1: any money, I said, it was and thank god you're

1993
01:53:44,040 --> 01:53:48,960
Speaker 1: getting paid. Okay, talking about the band, you're making a

1994
01:53:49,000 --> 01:53:53,639
Speaker 1: movie with so many members. We all know everybody doesn't

1995
01:53:53,640 --> 01:53:58,280
Speaker 1: remember the story the same way. So to what degree

1996
01:53:58,280 --> 01:54:03,840
Speaker 1: with their disagreements and who had the final call that

1997
01:54:04,200 --> 01:54:07,519
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say disagreements. I would just say Raschiman. They

1998
01:54:07,640 --> 01:54:12,920
Speaker 1: remembered things differently, and I was the final arbiter here.

1999
01:54:14,160 --> 01:54:16,920
Speaker 1: Bobby didn't tell me the movie to make. James Bryant

2000
01:54:16,920 --> 01:54:20,200
Speaker 1: didn't tell me the movie to make. So I felt

2001
01:54:20,280 --> 01:54:24,120
Speaker 1: I had to corroborate things twice or three times or

2002
01:54:24,200 --> 01:54:27,840
Speaker 1: I couldn't go down that road. So I really had

2003
01:54:27,880 --> 01:54:30,240
Speaker 1: to evaluate what they were saying to me, and is

2004
01:54:30,280 --> 01:54:32,120
Speaker 1: this true? Is this not true? Is it borne out

2005
01:54:32,120 --> 01:54:33,920
Speaker 1: by what other people are saying? Is it borne out

2006
01:54:33,920 --> 01:54:37,760
Speaker 1: by the documents that we found? And ultimately it was

2007
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:44,080
Speaker 1: my call, and so for better and worse, I'm responsible. Okay,

2008
01:54:44,200 --> 01:54:47,200
Speaker 1: we live and you referenced it earlier. We live in

2009
01:54:47,240 --> 01:54:50,360
Speaker 1: an era of cacophony. What do we know? The peak

2010
01:54:50,560 --> 01:54:54,800
Speaker 1: of blood, sweat and tears was really sixty eight sixty nine.

2011
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:59,000
Speaker 1: That's in excess of fifty years ago. How do you

2012
01:54:59,080 --> 01:55:01,920
Speaker 1: get the message out? And to what degree are you

2013
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:07,840
Speaker 1: frustrated excited about what's coming down the road. I'm very excited.

2014
01:55:08,320 --> 01:55:11,160
Speaker 1: And I think of some of this is your fault, Bob.

2015
01:55:12,200 --> 01:55:14,080
Speaker 1: You were the first person that wrote about it, and

2016
01:55:14,200 --> 01:55:18,120
Speaker 1: and what you said meant so much to me and

2017
01:55:18,680 --> 01:55:20,800
Speaker 1: Bobby where you said, you know, you don't need to

2018
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:23,320
Speaker 1: know Blitzwitt and Tears to appreciate this movie. You don't

2019
01:55:23,320 --> 01:55:25,800
Speaker 1: need to know the hits to appreciate this movie. And

2020
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:28,760
Speaker 1: I think that's what distinguishes it from your basic music doc.

2021
01:55:29,120 --> 01:55:30,960
Speaker 1: It's not about the band in a way that you

2022
01:55:31,000 --> 01:55:32,920
Speaker 1: need to know him or appreciate him or love them.

2023
01:55:33,440 --> 01:55:37,560
Speaker 1: It's a story of It's a thriller story that happens

2024
01:55:37,560 --> 01:55:41,880
Speaker 1: to have great music in it. And you started us off.

2025
01:55:42,240 --> 01:55:45,760
Speaker 1: And now we're getting coverage from Rolling Stone in the

2026
01:55:45,760 --> 01:55:47,880
Speaker 1: New York Times, and all these people are calling and

2027
01:55:47,920 --> 01:55:52,040
Speaker 1: wanting to do interviews, and they're asking reasonably smart, thoughtful

2028
01:55:52,120 --> 01:55:55,760
Speaker 1: questions that are not about and I do say, it's

2029
01:55:55,800 --> 01:55:57,520
Speaker 1: not a history of the band, it's and they said,

2030
01:55:57,520 --> 01:55:59,520
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, we know that, and they're onto the

2031
01:55:59,560 --> 01:56:02,240
Speaker 1: politics of it and all of that. So I'm actually

2032
01:56:02,320 --> 01:56:05,280
Speaker 1: quite excited that that as a result of the buzz

2033
01:56:05,320 --> 01:56:08,760
Speaker 1: we're getting and hopefully the reviews were going to get that,

2034
01:56:08,800 --> 01:56:10,200
Speaker 1: they're going to be people out there is it. It

2035
01:56:10,320 --> 01:56:12,920
Speaker 1: sounds really interesting and you should talk about it because

2036
01:56:12,920 --> 01:56:15,960
Speaker 1: you get this all the time. I had such a

2037
01:56:16,800 --> 01:56:20,200
Speaker 1: it's so funny. All of a sudden, my phone's ringing

2038
01:56:20,880 --> 01:56:24,480
Speaker 1: like crazy to see what bob Let's sits it. I said, no,

2039
01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:27,960
Speaker 1: I don't. I who what, Oh, you gotta see this?

2040
01:56:28,600 --> 01:56:30,840
Speaker 1: And I read this. I go, oh, this is so nice.

2041
01:56:30,960 --> 01:56:34,200
Speaker 1: He's so right. Oh my god. And I'm getting a

2042
01:56:34,200 --> 01:56:36,520
Speaker 1: lot of phone calls from people in the music business

2043
01:56:36,680 --> 01:56:40,480
Speaker 1: that I know. And that called John Up. I said, John,

2044
01:56:41,640 --> 01:56:44,680
Speaker 1: my only experiences in the music business and my only

2045
01:56:44,720 --> 01:56:48,960
Speaker 1: experience for hit records because I've been involved with the

2046
01:56:49,680 --> 01:56:53,000
Speaker 1: whole bunch of them. It's like, and I explained what

2047
01:56:53,080 --> 01:56:56,080
Speaker 1: you did. I said, here's the analogy. There was a

2048
01:56:56,160 --> 01:56:59,880
Speaker 1: station in Chicago it was called WLS that had them.

2049
01:57:00,160 --> 01:57:03,400
Speaker 1: It was the most powerful station. It reached Mexico, for

2050
01:57:03,480 --> 01:57:09,120
Speaker 1: God's sake, again out of Chicago. They would play fifteen songs,

2051
01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:11,760
Speaker 1: maybe a top twenty. But I didn't even think that much.

2052
01:57:12,360 --> 01:57:17,520
Speaker 1: You could never ever get break into that rotation unless

2053
01:57:17,880 --> 01:57:20,640
Speaker 1: a million of the stations had been playing it in

2054
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:23,840
Speaker 1: the area. People were responding, buying the I mean, it's

2055
01:57:23,840 --> 01:57:27,680
Speaker 1: a whole process. Called John, I said, you know what

2056
01:57:27,680 --> 01:57:30,960
Speaker 1: Bob just did for us, what we're on LS. We're

2057
01:57:31,000 --> 01:57:34,720
Speaker 1: on LS before any stations. I said, this feels like

2058
01:57:34,720 --> 01:57:37,560
Speaker 1: a hit record. This is insane. And that's like I

2059
01:57:37,560 --> 01:57:39,280
Speaker 1: don't want to blow too much smoked your way, but

2060
01:57:39,360 --> 01:57:42,440
Speaker 1: it was amazing. Well, you know, in this particular case,

2061
01:57:42,760 --> 01:57:45,880
Speaker 1: I certainly was a fan of the band. I saw

2062
01:57:46,000 --> 01:57:49,800
Speaker 1: the band. Where did you see us? Bridgeport, Connecticut, Katie

2063
01:57:49,920 --> 01:57:55,960
Speaker 1: Kennedy Stadium. Wow. So as I say that, just the

2064
01:57:56,040 --> 01:57:59,040
Speaker 1: concept of the film was fascinating to me. I wanted

2065
01:57:59,080 --> 01:58:03,000
Speaker 1: to know more. I didn't expect, you know, after watching

2066
01:58:03,040 --> 01:58:06,400
Speaker 1: the film, I remembered the blowback about the statements after

2067
01:58:06,480 --> 01:58:09,880
Speaker 1: the trip to Eastern Europe, but it was not top

2068
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:14,200
Speaker 1: of mind. But you know, only right from the heart.

2069
01:58:14,480 --> 01:58:20,080
Speaker 1: The film is fantastic. It really is. And I think

2070
01:58:20,120 --> 01:58:23,560
Speaker 1: I said it's one of the best rock documentaries ever done.

2071
01:58:23,840 --> 01:58:27,320
Speaker 1: And I do believe that, And I could go on

2072
01:58:27,360 --> 01:58:30,520
Speaker 1: and on, but I just hope people see it. I

2073
01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:33,160
Speaker 1: think we've come to the end of the feeling we've known.

2074
01:58:33,480 --> 01:58:36,320
Speaker 1: I have a lot more questions, but for a different time.

2075
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:39,880
Speaker 1: John and Bobby, thank you for taking this time to

2076
01:58:39,880 --> 01:58:43,040
Speaker 1: speak to my audience, and thank you for asking the

2077
01:58:43,080 --> 01:58:48,320
Speaker 1: most questions that we haven't been asked before. It's fantastic

2078
01:58:48,440 --> 01:58:51,320
Speaker 1: and I have many more, but not today, especially about

2079
01:58:51,320 --> 01:58:54,600
Speaker 1: the band. You couldn't call me any side one and

2080
01:58:55,320 --> 01:58:58,280
Speaker 1: there's a gay history, and you know all these songs

2081
01:58:58,360 --> 01:59:02,200
Speaker 1: because the other thing is Blood, Sweat and Tears. Was

2082
01:59:02,240 --> 01:59:06,080
Speaker 1: the first rock band to do a Laura Neuros song. Yeah,

2083
01:59:06,120 --> 01:59:09,840
Speaker 1: well she was going to be our lead singer. Listen

2084
01:59:09,880 --> 01:59:13,440
Speaker 1: to do you have time for a little bit? Yes? Yes, okay, okay,

2085
01:59:13,480 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 1: sorry after Al's gone. I loved Laura. She was a

2086
01:59:18,440 --> 01:59:22,640
Speaker 1: friend of mine. Both signed to Columbia Records. Jimmy Field

2087
01:59:22,640 --> 01:59:26,120
Speaker 1: are our bass player, starts living with her and we're

2088
01:59:26,160 --> 01:59:30,280
Speaker 1: all friends. And I hear Eli that album she has Eli,

2089
01:59:30,320 --> 01:59:34,320
Speaker 1: and it blows me out of my chair. And it's

2090
01:59:34,320 --> 01:59:37,960
Speaker 1: got great horn arrangements by Charlie Callella. I mean, it's

2091
01:59:38,040 --> 01:59:40,720
Speaker 1: really a cool record, and I'm falling in love. And

2092
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:43,440
Speaker 1: I said, man, she would be the perfect singer for us,

2093
01:59:44,080 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 1: So I call her her managers David Geffen, and I said,

2094
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:51,080
Speaker 1: what do you think of this idea? She goes, oh, Bobby,

2095
01:59:51,720 --> 01:59:54,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. I have to speak to David, and

2096
01:59:54,560 --> 01:59:57,320
Speaker 1: I said, we'll call him. I know him really well.

2097
01:59:57,360 --> 02:00:00,280
Speaker 1: I said, call him. Let's let's do it. We had

2098
02:00:00,280 --> 02:00:04,320
Speaker 1: a rehearsal and we oh yeah, and we're I think,

2099
02:00:04,320 --> 02:00:07,120
Speaker 1: at the cafe, Go go, and we have the charts

2100
02:00:07,560 --> 02:00:11,880
Speaker 1: to Eli's Eli's Coming, and she started and she's at

2101
02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:15,560
Speaker 1: the piano. She starts singing Eli's Coming, and I had

2102
02:00:15,840 --> 02:00:20,360
Speaker 1: some falsetto then I'd say, Elias coming, whoa you bet?

2103
02:00:20,520 --> 02:00:22,360
Speaker 1: And we look at each other. We're laughing and it

2104
02:00:22,520 --> 02:00:26,000
Speaker 1: sounds and went down to day and we're playing. It's killing.

2105
02:00:26,400 --> 02:00:29,280
Speaker 1: It's so great, and I said, oh, man, Clive's gotta

2106
02:00:29,320 --> 02:00:32,720
Speaker 1: be he's gonna be happy. Here's two artists. This band's

2107
02:00:32,760 --> 02:00:36,400
Speaker 1: gonna be fantastic. And David was calling me, oh, this

2108
02:00:36,480 --> 02:00:40,320
Speaker 1: is gonna be great, and he actually wanted to manage

2109
02:00:40,360 --> 02:00:43,280
Speaker 1: the band. And I knew David well, and I thought,

2110
02:00:43,480 --> 02:00:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, I think be better to get like a

2111
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:49,360
Speaker 1: neutral manager. And so then she calls me one day

2112
02:00:49,400 --> 02:00:51,360
Speaker 1: and says, I don't think it's gonna work I can't

2113
02:00:51,360 --> 02:00:54,120
Speaker 1: do it. I said, what do you mean what David

2114
02:00:54,240 --> 02:00:56,720
Speaker 1: said that you guys are never gonna make it and

2115
02:00:57,000 --> 02:00:59,800
Speaker 1: you know I'm gonna be a big star, And I said,

2116
02:00:59,800 --> 02:01:01,360
Speaker 1: I just spoke to him. He said, this is a

2117
02:01:01,400 --> 02:01:03,840
Speaker 1: great idea. I probably spoke to him right at the

2118
02:01:03,920 --> 02:01:05,360
Speaker 1: point when I said I don't think you should be

2119
02:01:05,400 --> 02:01:08,480
Speaker 1: the manager when he called her up and said, forget it,

2120
02:01:08,880 --> 02:01:12,120
Speaker 1: this is never gonna work, and she was going to be.

2121
02:01:12,400 --> 02:01:15,320
Speaker 1: I mean, the choices that we were going after. Let

2122
02:01:15,320 --> 02:01:18,480
Speaker 1: me give you some names. Stevie Wonder he was not

2123
02:01:18,600 --> 02:01:21,720
Speaker 1: doing amazingly well at that point. And I got to

2124
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:25,000
Speaker 1: Motown spoke. I spoke to a lawyer, and not knowing

2125
02:01:25,040 --> 02:01:28,560
Speaker 1: he was not only Stevie's lawyer but also Moto's lawyer,

2126
02:01:28,960 --> 02:01:31,200
Speaker 1: I said, any chance that he would ever be free

2127
02:01:31,240 --> 02:01:33,800
Speaker 1: to no, sorry, okay, that was the end of that idea.

2128
02:01:33,960 --> 02:01:37,040
Speaker 1: And then I hear very superstitious like, oh, it would

2129
02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:39,640
Speaker 1: have been perfect for us, so like you know, going

2130
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:42,920
Speaker 1: step by step. And then our bass player knew like

2131
02:01:43,000 --> 02:01:45,600
Speaker 1: Steve Stills well because he was in the springfield with

2132
02:01:45,640 --> 02:01:48,200
Speaker 1: them for a minute. He said, be great. I said, yeah,

2133
02:01:48,240 --> 02:01:50,720
Speaker 1: he'd be great, and I spoke to him and he

2134
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:53,920
Speaker 1: said no, I'm forming a super band with Buddy Miles.

2135
02:01:54,080 --> 02:01:57,040
Speaker 1: I said, okay, he's not available, and that's the point

2136
02:01:57,080 --> 02:02:00,240
Speaker 1: when we started to look for other people. But but

2137
02:02:00,400 --> 02:02:02,840
Speaker 1: you happen to mention Lauren, he or I couldn't just

2138
02:02:02,920 --> 02:02:05,760
Speaker 1: sit here well like I know that. I mean, I've

2139
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:08,080
Speaker 1: never heard that story and that kind of blows my

2140
02:02:08,120 --> 02:02:10,960
Speaker 1: mind and everybody all the personalities there. We could go

2141
02:02:11,040 --> 02:02:14,640
Speaker 1: much deeper, but not today. I want to thank you

2142
02:02:14,680 --> 02:02:18,600
Speaker 1: guys so much. Till next time. This is Bob left

2143
02:02:18,600 --> 02:02:18,960
Speaker 1: Sex