1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: about issues some people might find disturbing, including rape and suicide. 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: If you or someone you know is suicidal in the 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: US down nine to eighty eight, check out this podcast 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: notes page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: in your community. 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 2: Something that I've heard nearly everyone admit about this story 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 2: and the case of ed Buck. 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 3: It's hard. The facts themselves hard. 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 2: Two gay black men were found dead, two men dead 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 2: eighteen months apart in ed Buck's West Hollywood apartment. Ed 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: Buck was accused of torturing black men, getting them high 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 2: and addicted to meth. He's accused of shooting them up 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: with meth. And he would watch these black men wearing 15 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 2: the white underwear that he gave. 16 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 3: Them, writhe in pain. 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: And even after Jamel Moore died of an overdose in 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 2: at Buck's apartment, the local power structure let ed Buck 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: keep endangering men. 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 3: He kept torturing. 21 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 2: Them and killing them. Eighteen months after Jamel Moore died, 22 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: Timothy Dean was also found dead same circumstances. It's hard 23 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: to wrap your head around that than it can make 24 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: your heart sick. Now I've learned in journalism that even 25 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: if you are not a victim, you can be traumatized. 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 2: Later in this episode, we're going to take a deeper 27 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 2: dive into trauma and mental health. We'll examine some of 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: the psychological hurdles ed Buck's. 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 3: Victims may have been navigating. 30 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 2: For that matter, we'll take a look at social emotional 31 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: challenges that are happening all around us. The challenge is 32 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: so many of us are facing every single day. But first, 33 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 2: we're going to try to make sense of the senseless, 34 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: to try to explain why it took so long for 35 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: ed Buck to be held accountable for his crimes. This 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: is shattering the system. Today, we get a framework for 37 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: understanding not only his victims, but also the perpetrators in 38 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: this case. 39 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 3: More after this break nine emergency. 40 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: On January seventh, twenty nineteen, responding to a nine to 41 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 2: one to one call from Aducks apartment, paramedics found a 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: fifty five year old black man lying on responsive on 43 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: a mattress on the floor. He was naked except for 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: white briefs. His mouth was obscured by a dark purge 45 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: of blood. This was the second time in eighteen months 46 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: that police had responded to a call and found the 47 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: man dead in ed Buck's apartment. Ed Buck once again 48 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 2: told sheriff's deputies the dead man was his friend. Toxicology 49 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: reports showed an overdose of methamphetamine mixed with alcohol that 50 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 2: killed Timothy Dean. Here's La County District Attorney Jackie Lacy 51 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: talking about why she wasn't able to arrest at Buck 52 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: at the time. 53 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 4: We can't file a criminal case based on who has 54 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 4: the loudest voice. 55 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 5: Did we go out there and arrest him? 56 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 4: Now the clock starts ticking, and it wouldn't be ethical 57 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 4: right now to arrest him until we really had the evidence. 58 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: Eight months after Timothy Dean was found dead in ed 59 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: Buck's apartment, yet another man implicated ed Buck in a 60 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 2: serious crime. He said Buck offered him cash and marijuana 61 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: exchange for sex, and according to prosecutors, Buck gave the 62 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: young man a drink, saying it was vodka. The young 63 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: man lost consciousness, awaking to ed Buck injecting him with 64 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 2: a syringe while he had metal clamps placed on his 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: body making it hard for him to move. Now, this 66 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: victim lived to tell the story. He escaped or fled 67 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: bus apartment and ran to a nearby gas station for help. 68 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: Hank Scott covered West Hollywood over the years and the 69 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: ed Buck case. He said ed Buck lrd men's his 70 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: apartment in a variety of ways, using sites such as 71 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 2: grinder or Adam for Adam. He enticed the men with 72 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: offers of drugs and money, and he used words like 73 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 2: generous in his profile. 74 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 5: Generous means I'll pay you for sex, and ed Buck 75 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 5: would do something like that. I'm sure because that's how 76 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 5: he lured these people over through this sixty three year 77 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 5: old white a man's apartment and put on the tidy 78 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 5: white eats, the white underwear, and that was just one 79 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 5: of his weird passions. He then would share a little 80 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 5: drugs and there were some cases where apparently and with 81 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 5: the testimony, he shared not of danger strugs with young 82 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 5: men to get them in a state where. 83 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 6: He could put out there being aware of it, slowly 84 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 6: into their arms. Now, this was not meth comes in 85 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 6: many forms. This was not a good that they sported 86 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 6: drug until ed Buck liked to shoot them up. 87 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 5: It's called slamming, and that was something that ed Buck 88 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 5: had a strange passion for. 89 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 7: I don't feel normal. I honestly think he has to 90 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 7: do with the drugs. It makes me feel horrible. Ed 91 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 7: Buck is the one to think he gave me my 92 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 7: first injection of crystal myth. It was painful. 93 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 8: I wasn't politically aligned with ed Buck. I didn't see 94 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 8: I didn't share his worldview, and my experience was that 95 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 8: anybody who was on the other side of him, he 96 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 8: made an enemy. 97 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: Lindsay Horvat served on West Hollywood City Council for many years. 98 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: She's now on the La County Board of Supervisors Historic. 99 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: The relationship between the sheriff and we hose gay community 100 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: is problematic, says Horvath. The sheriff's office is in the 101 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: heart of the gay nightlife district. 102 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 8: But if you're at the LGBT nightlife destinations that most 103 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 8: people associate with the city, you can probably see this 104 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 8: sheriff station. 105 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: It sort of goes without saying that you weren't pleased 106 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: with how the sheriff's deputies handled ed Buck, which is 107 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: why we're here absolutely so keeping them that train of 108 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: thought of not being trained and not always being culturally competent. 109 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 2: Help me understand what would frustrate you about, say the 110 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: sheriff's deputies and dealing with the death of Jamel Moore. 111 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 8: Well, it was more than frustration. It was absolutely devastating 112 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 8: to hear about the death of Jamel Moore. The Sheriff's 113 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 8: deputies who were involved in the investigation had indicated at 114 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 8: some point thereafter that it it wasn't the first time 115 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 8: that they had been called to that particular residence, and 116 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 8: so not only in that specific investigation, but just knowing 117 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 8: that there were ongoing issues with that residence and to 118 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 8: know that ultimately it resulted in the death of now 119 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 8: we know multiple people at that residence was just absolutely 120 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 8: heartbreaking to know that it was something that was known 121 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 8: to law enforcement and yet it still happened. 122 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 9: Nixon said she was flabbergasted when she saw the surveillance 123 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 9: images Fox eleven obtained exclusively from Bunk's apartment building the 124 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 9: night her son was found dead. They allegedly show another 125 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 9: young man trying to get up to Bunk's apartment while 126 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 9: deputies were still on scene before. 127 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 3: He shoot away. 128 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: While Buck was showing up to bars and jo and 129 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: the turnstile of black men into his apartment found no 130 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: lack of men willing to enter his place. Something in 131 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: the political landscape, though kind of shifted at bucks crimes 132 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: began to attract the attention of the federal. 133 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 10: Government, so I was very concerned. My first concern was 134 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 10: making sure that he didn't do this to another victim. 135 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 3: That's Chelsea NoREL. 136 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: She's with the US Attorney's Office in the Central District 137 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: of California. Even after the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office, 138 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: these are the local prosecutors failed to indict ed Buck, 139 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: Norell says her office. The federal prosecutors could not turn 140 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 2: the blind eye to the fact that two men had 141 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: ended up dead in bucks apartment, and they began to 142 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: watch his. 143 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 10: Place, making sure that we had units on the house 144 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 10: where we could observe him, where we could monitor the 145 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 10: ingress and egress of people coming in and out of 146 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 10: his apartment that go on for We came in in 147 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 10: the summer of twenty nineteen and we immediately started taking 148 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 10: measures to the extent we could with the resources that 149 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 10: we had. We tried to monitor him as much as 150 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 10: we could, but then not hit a fever pitch when 151 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 10: he had another victim in September of twenty nineteen. 152 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: That victim identified as John Doe, that victim is the 153 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 2: one who escaped Bucks apartment after he was injected with 154 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: a dangerous dose of myth. John Doe very well may 155 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: have saved his own life when he fled Bucks apartment 156 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: and called nine to one one. John Doe is alive. 157 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: His reports of what happened to him were just too 158 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: hard to ignore. I'm Snari Glinton, and this is shattering 159 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: the system more after a break, the li District Attorney 160 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: Jackie Lacey was getting a lot of heat and one 161 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: of the chief complaints against her office was well she 162 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: didn't indict or prosecute at Buck. Now we need to 163 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: talk about Jackie Lacy because she is a pioneer. Born 164 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 2: and raised in Crenshaw and Los Angeles, she joined the 165 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: lada's office in nineteen eighty six and spent twenty five 166 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: years on a steady climb. Lacey was elected as the 167 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: District Attorney for Los Angeles in twenty twelve, making history. 168 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,479 Speaker 2: She was the first woman and the first African American 169 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: to hold that office. Jackie Lacey was actually an anomaly 170 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 2: among the newer big city prosecutors. She had a reputation 171 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: for being tough on crime. And while it's true that 172 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: LA County has become a Democratic stronghold. It's kind of 173 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: important to remember that while the city of La is 174 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 2: deep blue and the city of West Hollywood, where ed 175 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: Buck lived, is blue or still, there are eighty six 176 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 2: other cities in La County, and the farther you get 177 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 2: from the center of Los Angeles, the rehdder and redder 178 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: of those cities get. Jackie Lacy, the district attorney, was 179 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: a longtime Democratic operative inside the city, so she had 180 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 2: to portray herself as a progressive there and outside the city. 181 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 2: She wanted to portray an image that was tough on crime. 182 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 4: The Sheriff's department, they saw that mister Moore was dead, 183 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 4: but they investigated it sort of like an overdose, and 184 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 4: we know they found some things, but we contend that 185 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 4: it's illegal. 186 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 3: How they searched for it. 187 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 4: They needed a warrant and stake court could never come in. 188 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 2: After the death of Jamel Moore, La County DA, the 189 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 2: local prosecutor, Jackie Lacy, said there wasn't enough evidence to 190 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: charge at Buck. There was still no charges after a 191 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: second man, Timothy Dean, was found dead in Buck's apartment. 192 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: Criticism of Jackie Lacy got intense activists and regular. 193 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 3: People wanted buck prosecuted. 194 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, there were an array of changes to the way 195 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: the government did business. Remember this is the Trump era 196 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 2: when it came to drug policy. This shift in drug 197 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: policy was a response to the opioid epidemic, and with 198 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: a ballooning number of deaths, there was a shift to 199 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 2: stop treating those overdoses as casualties of addiction and to 200 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: start treating them as crime. 201 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 11: And historically overdoses were treated more like an accident. 202 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: In my judgment, Nick Hanna is the former US Attorney 203 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 2: for the Central District of California, a Trump administration appointee. 204 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 11: You know, police would be called and it would be 205 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 11: you know, somebody overdosed and that's tragic, but it wasn't 206 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 11: treated sort of as a criminal offense. 207 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 3: And what can be. 208 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 11: Done On the federal side, there's a very powerful federal 209 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 11: statute that makes it a crime to supply drugs that 210 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 11: result in aid death. And that's a unique federal statute 211 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 11: with a very heavy penalty, a twenty year mandatory minimum. 212 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 2: It would be the response to the opioid crisis that 213 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: would make that statue look attractive. All the officials we 214 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 2: talked to from the US Attorney's office talk about cooperation 215 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: almost as if it were Sesame Street. No one will 216 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: breathe a word about politics, but there is always a 217 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: bit of politics or one upsmanship between the various law 218 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: enforcement agencies. So while Jackie Lacy, a local Democrat, was 219 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 2: looking vulnerable in front of voters, the federal prosecutor, a 220 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 2: Trump appointee, was going to handle her biggest headache again 221 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 2: neck Hannah. 222 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 11: We decided to set up this task force to try 223 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 11: to see whether we could make an impact and stop 224 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 11: people who were just making money and not caring whether 225 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 11: they killed somebody or not. And in that context, I 226 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 11: believe it was one of the task force officers who 227 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 11: was assigned to that task force, one of the local 228 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 11: sheriff's deputies, who brought the ed Buck investigation to the 229 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 11: attention of our office and said, look, essentially, there's this 230 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 11: case that I'm aware of. It's not a fentanyl case, 231 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 11: but it's similar in the sense of somebody providing drugs 232 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 11: that results in death. And you know, maybe you guys 233 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 11: could take a look at it. And so I assigned 234 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 11: prosecutors in my office to take a look at it, 235 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 11: to work with the Sheriff's department and also with DEA 236 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 11: to take a look at the case and see what 237 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 11: we thought and see what the evidence was, what had 238 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 11: already been gathered, what additional investigative steps could be taken, 239 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 11: and whether or not we thought this was something that 240 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 11: merited a federal prosecution. 241 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: What's indisputable is that two black men had died of overdoses, 242 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 2: and while federal prosecutors were investigating whether they could pursue charges, 243 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: La County DA Jackie Lacy, the local prosecutor, was arguing 244 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 2: that he didn't have a case against that Buck. Now 245 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: the tension was building for a case against Buck, but 246 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: the death of Timothy d the homicide Bureau in the 247 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: Sheriff's department had launched a new investigation. Remember we just 248 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 2: heard Nick Hannah, who was working at the US Attorney's office. 249 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: Hannah is a Justice Department lawyer, and he says someone 250 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: from the local sheriff's office is the one who flagged 251 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: the case to the facts. Sound like politics, anyway, Let's 252 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: take a listen to my interview with Lindsay Horrovab, who 253 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: served twice as wes Hollywood's mayor. 254 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 8: She chose not to bring the case. 255 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: Say more. 256 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 8: I think well, for whatever reason, she chose not to 257 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 8: pursue the case. I called her office after Jamel Moore's 258 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 8: death several days in a row, asking her office to 259 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 8: help create safety for people who wanted to come forward 260 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 8: and testify and share information about what they knew about 261 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 8: the circumstances surrounding Jammel's death, but what they also knew 262 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 8: in terms of the circumstances of what happened at that residence. 263 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 8: And it took many people coming forward, including my phone calls, 264 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 8: not only including my phone calls, for her to even 265 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 8: be willing to grant immunity for people to come forward 266 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 8: and share valuable information. 267 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 2: We have to remember the local politics at play here. 268 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: Jackie Lacy, the local district attorney, was being hit on 269 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: all sides politically. Now, to be criticized constantly on the 270 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 2: West side of Los Angeles, that's dangerous for Democrats, not 271 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 2: just in LA but national democrats. A significant portion of 272 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: the money that Democrats from all across the country rays 273 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: comes from homes that are just a turn off of 274 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: Sunset Boulevard for miles and miles. And another thing often 275 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 2: das can be the fall guys during politically dicey times. 276 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: I mean, if you've seen an episode of Law and Order, 277 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: you can get what I'm saying. District attorneys are very 278 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: loath to bring cases that they aren't one hundred percent 279 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: sure that they can win. Any loss will be the 280 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: basis for an opponent's political ad and Lacey had an 281 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 2: upcoming election. In many ways, she was stuck between a 282 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 2: sheriff's office that had a tradition of cutting corners, a 283 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 2: Trump appointed federal prosecutor, her own tough on crime image, 284 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 2: and all those dead black bodies. 285 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 8: I think, well, clearly, the United States government was able 286 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 8: to bring a case in federal court based on the 287 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 8: exact same evidence that she was able to review, and 288 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 8: she elected, despite reviewing the same evidence, she elected not 289 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 8: to pursue the case. 290 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: The district attorney framed this as a problem of he said, 291 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: he said, as if her hands were tied. Lindsay Horvath, 292 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 2: the former mayor of West Hollywood, says, that's just not 293 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: the case. 294 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 8: I mean, the idea that there were people out there 295 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 8: who were willing to tell their stories despite surviving traumatic experiences, 296 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 8: and she wasn't going to create a safe place for 297 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 8: them to come forward and testify was absolutely absurd to me. 298 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 8: I'm glad that the US government did take up. 299 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 12: The case. 300 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 3: Again. 301 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 2: Nick Hanna, the former US Attorney for the Central District 302 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 2: of California. 303 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 11: So we started, in conjunction with the DEA a Opioid 304 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 11: Overdose Task Force in the fall of twenty eighteen, and 305 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 11: we brought in some state and local officers to that 306 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 11: task force, with the goal being to investigate overdose deaths 307 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 11: like the crime scene they really are right, and to 308 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 11: determine whether or not someone should be held accountable for 309 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 11: providing drugs that killed somebody. 310 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 2: The FEDS were building the scaffolding to prosecute people in 311 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 2: drug cases that end in overdose deaths. They were creating 312 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: a pathway to charging at Buck. 313 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 10: So in the summer of twenty nineteen, the Sheriff's office 314 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 10: approached the US Attorney's Office regarding the overdose deaths of 315 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 10: Jimmelmore and Timothy Dean, who died in twenty seventeen and 316 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 10: twenty nineteen, respectively. 317 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 3: Chelsea Norrel is a federal prosecutor. 318 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 10: The DA's office at that point had declined the Jammel 319 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 10: Moore investigation, but it was my understanding that they had 320 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 10: reopened the investigation of both deaths. At the same time, 321 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 10: the sheriffs brought the investigation to the US Attorney's office, 322 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 10: so we were working in parallel together at the outset 323 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 10: of the investigation, starting in the summer of twenty nineteen. 324 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 2: The chief of International Money Laundering and International Narcotics recruited 325 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 2: NoREL to look into Buck. 326 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 10: I initially reviewed all of the reports from witnesses from 327 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 10: the scene at Box apartment after the deaths and immediately 328 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 10: saw that we had a disturbing pattern of what I 329 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 10: later learned to be party in play, which was Buck 330 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 10: luring his victims to his apartment to inject them with 331 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 10: methamphetamine and then on some occasions sexually assault his victims. 332 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 10: So as soon as I saw that, I knew that 333 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 10: there were aspects of the case where we didn't have jurisdiction, 334 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 10: but that if we could show he distributed the drugs 335 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 10: that ultimately killed his victims, that we had drug distribution 336 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 10: resulting in death charges that could carry severe penalties. 337 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 2: Seven hundred and eighty two days after Jammel Moore died, 338 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: but only six days after the surviving victim called the 339 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: police ed Buck was finally arrested September seventeenth, twenty nineteen. 340 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: He was charged with maintaining a drug house, battery causing 341 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: serious injury, and administering me. 342 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 3: Then fetamine, all felonies. The judge set his bail for 343 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 3: four million dollars, and. 344 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 2: While ed Buck was held up in jail all that time, 345 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,719 Speaker 2: he went free would have serious consequences for Jackie Lacy. 346 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: She would be one of several officials whose eventual election 347 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 2: loss could be directly related at least in part to 348 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: ed Buck. Now Jackie Lacy became the face of what 349 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 2: was broken in the system. One of the leading voices 350 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 2: in this story is Jasminchanic. Kanick was an early and 351 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: very visible leader in the campaign to put public pressure 352 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 2: on officials after Jamel Moore died, and Jasminchanic has been 353 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 2: doing her work as a journalist and an activist for 354 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 2: nearly two decades in Los Angeles, and there are a 355 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: few voices that have been more consistent in the fight 356 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: to bring ed Buck to justice. Jasminkanic was instrumental in 357 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: bringing about national attention. Among other things, she pointed out 358 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 2: at Buck's political donations. We reached out to jaz Mechanic 359 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: for an interview or for any person anticipation. She declined 360 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 2: our requests. We also reached out to Letitia Nixon. She 361 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 2: was also a very strong advocate demanding justice for the 362 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 2: death of her son Jamelle Moore. We did not receive 363 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 2: a response from Nixon after multiple requests for an interview. Now, 364 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: while Lacey was handling or not handling the deaths and 365 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: at Buck's apartment, she'd been fighting for her political life. 366 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: She was challenged on the left by a progressive. He 367 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: was one of many progressors who were part of a 368 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 2: trend nationwide at the time. Then, on election day, as 369 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 2: voters were waiting to cast their ballots, and I have 370 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: to say that this is one of the most bizarre 371 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 2: things I've seen in local politics, or most people have 372 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 2: seen in local politics, the district attorney's husband pulled a 373 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 2: gun on Black Lives Matter protesters on primary election day. 374 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 2: She would lose her reelection by nearly a quarter million votes. 375 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty, Jackie Lacy declined to be interviewed for 376 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 2: this podcast. Her husband, David Lacey, died in September of 377 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and she said she didn't think that 378 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: this would be a good time to do interviews, but 379 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: she did send a statement which I will read in full. 380 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: I've given my remarks on the Ed Buck case in 381 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: the past. I stand by my statements. Unfortunately, there are 382 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 2: a number of people who cling to the misguided belief 383 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 2: that Buck had influence on the lada's office. 384 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 3: He did not. 385 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 2: Prior to the death of Jamel Moore, I had never 386 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 2: heard of him. When I found out Buck had donated 387 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 2: one hundred dollars to my campaign in twenty twelve, I 388 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 2: returned it. I am grateful that the United States Attorney 389 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 2: used their resources and laws to convict Buck of his 390 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 2: despicable conduct. I am glad the families of the victims 391 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: got justice at the state level. We simply did not 392 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 2: have the evidence and laws to prosecute him. Sadly, this 393 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: type of conduct sextra drugs continues. Most of the time, 394 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: these deaths are written off by the coroner as overdoses. 395 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: Proposed changes to the law to make furnishing drugs to 396 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 2: others are often rejected as an attempt to bring back 397 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: and she has in quotations the war on drugs. We 398 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: as a society want this behavior to stop, but we 399 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: are not courageous enough to enact laws to stop it. 400 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: That statement from Jackie Lacy, the first black woman to 401 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: be La County's district attorney, This is shattering the system. 402 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: After a break, we'll explore the psychological underpinnings of what 403 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:50,719 Speaker 2: happened in this case. There are so many dark twists 404 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: and turns to the story that I have to say 405 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: that reporting this out has been hard, not as hard 406 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: as the lived experience of the victims, but to the 407 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 2: facts has an effect on me and the team of 408 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: people working on this story. It may even have an 409 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 2: effect on you. And it made me think about Jamel Moore, 410 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 2: Timothy Dean and John Doe and all the other unfortunate 411 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 2: souls who went into ed Buck's apartment and engaged in 412 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 2: his fetishist What sort of mental space were they in? 413 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: What made them who they are? Timothy Dean knew that 414 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 2: Jamel Moore had died in ed Buck's apartment. What made 415 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: him even speak to ed Buck, let alone go into 416 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 2: his apartment? Ed Buck claimed he had been abused as 417 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 2: a child. Is that even a plausible explanation for his criminality? 418 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: And I have to say I've never seen anything quite 419 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: as bonkers in politics as the late David Lacy, the 420 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: district attorney Jackie Lacy's husband, pulling a gun on Black 421 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 2: Lives Matter protesters on election Day. And I'm from Chicago. 422 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 2: What sort of space was David Lacy in? And more generally, 423 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: I feel like we need to explore the psychological health 424 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 2: of people who have limited acts to the support they 425 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 2: desperately need, my people, black, queer and trans folks. 426 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 3: So I wanted to check in with a therapist. 427 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 12: Hi, my name is b Arthur. I am a licensedmenttal 428 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 12: health counselor, and I am an advocate for mental health 429 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 12: for you formally incarcerated people, women and my boos in 430 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 12: the queer community. 431 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: B is also founder of The Difference, a same day 432 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: therapy service. I talked to me a couple of times 433 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 2: in relation to this show, and it's easy for me 434 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: to forget that she's a therapist trained at Columbia University. 435 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 3: That's partly because she's so relatable. 436 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: She's also a part time comedian and she's named after 437 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 2: B Arthur. 438 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 12: Yes, I'm the other one, so yes, it's true. If 439 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 12: you google be Arthur, there is another lady there and 440 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 12: she do not look like me. But I'm very glad 441 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 12: to be raised up under her tutelage, so it was 442 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 12: just a happy accident. But yeah, I love the Golden 443 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 12: Girls and Gone is the Gold Coast and gave people 444 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 12: really fuck with b Arthur's So I've been very blessed 445 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 12: by the name. I feel always say I'm the second 446 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 12: coming of the Arthur. So shout out to OGV. 447 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: Right up there at the top of the systems that 448 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: fail black and queer folk, the health care system and 449 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: especially mental health. Every principle in this story showed signs 450 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: of needing mental health care, but for the black community 451 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 2: and black men, the need is acute. According to the 452 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: Columbia University Department of Psychiatry, African Americans are twenty percent 453 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: more likely to have serious mental health problems, but they 454 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: seek out therapy at nearly half the ratest whites. B 455 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 2: Arthur says, though, the problem is especially tough, not just 456 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: for black men, but. 457 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 12: Men in general. Yeah, so men in general, I think 458 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 12: the numbers are about seventy percent of the people who 459 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 12: utilize mental health services or women, right, So it's I 460 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 12: think because men are raised in dominance, you know, and 461 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 12: in this perceived you know, individualist, especially in America, which 462 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 12: has a very strong culture of avoidance, a very strong 463 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 12: do it your self mentality. It's just not in practice, 464 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 12: it's just not a thing. It's getting better with this 465 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 12: new generation. But yeah, I think because men are raised 466 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 12: in a culture of dominance, they're not used to sharing 467 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 12: vulnerabilities with anyone else, especially in other men. So there 468 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 12: has actually been studies that there's what they're calling a 469 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 12: friendship recession, and even men over thirty, like one in 470 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 12: four don't feel they have someone to talk to on 471 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 12: a bad day. 472 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 2: As a therapist, I wonder, what is it that I 473 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 2: need to know when I approach these story In the 474 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 2: story about one of the people did sex work, the 475 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 2: other was you know, porn starch, both of them sex work, right, Yeah, 476 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: So what do I need to know about them? 477 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 4: That they are? 478 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 12: They are human beings, They are not their job. You know, 479 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 12: they deserve the dignity of life, you know, in their 480 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 12: full descriptions. Yeah, because I do think that. You know, 481 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 12: it's again one of those things when people are like, 482 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 12: well how do they die? 483 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 2: Right? 484 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 12: Like and if you go, oh, well, you know she 485 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 12: was working or he was a working girl, then people 486 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 12: go Okay, well that wouldn't happen to me right, and 487 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 12: it's just a selfish stinks, So it is not about 488 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 12: those people. I think sex workers know a lot more 489 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 12: about people in the human condition, and I think could 490 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 12: actually be like a solution to a lot of the 491 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 12: society's problems. Like I genuinely believe that because I think 492 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 12: a lot of sex workers, men and women in non 493 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 12: binary see people at their most animal right, and because 494 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 12: everybody's walking up right and pretending like we are not 495 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 12: bad boons like everybody else. We are not just ape 496 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 12: animals with just basic needs and violence and a lot 497 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 12: of like you know, non functioning brain parts. So there's 498 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 12: a lot of wisdom to be learned from sex workers, 499 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 12: particularly become Most wisdom comes from wounds, so we've seen 500 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 12: a lot of broken people go in and out of that. 501 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 12: So I think it's helpful to tell maybe how they 502 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 12: ended up doing that work. Not everybody who does sex 503 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 12: work does it because they don't have options. When people 504 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 12: are sex positive or enjoyed or recent ways that they 505 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 12: don't have shame about it, I think it's important to 506 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,959 Speaker 12: tell their story before their death, you know, so I 507 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 12: think the full range of their human life. You know, 508 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 12: As a therapist, I'm always challenged my clients to address 509 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 12: the full range of human emotion. You can't just talk 510 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 12: about happy and gratitude. You have to pay attention to 511 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 12: anger and sadness. So I think everybody's life deserves the 512 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 12: full range of who they were. I think her work 513 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 12: should just be descriptive and not definitive. So similarly, in 514 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 12: your story, yeah, make sure the victims get to be known. 515 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: I want to take these people as whole beings, right 516 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: and see them as people who they are. And ed 517 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 2: Buck is it's easy for me to see the victim 518 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 2: as being whole. Maybe it's a little harder for me 519 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 2: to see him as not being the booky man. 520 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 12: So I think with predators, I think it's important, like, sure, 521 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 12: they're whole people. But since we're talking about true crime, 522 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 12: you know, I think it's complicated to try and fit 523 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 12: all of the lenses and again all the intersectionalities and 524 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 12: all the perspectives that are happening in these violent stories, 525 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 12: especially when people are just there for the violence. Let's 526 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 12: be honest, right, be. 527 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: Says, we talk about crime and victims in the most 528 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: digestible ways, good guy guy, hero villain. She says she 529 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 2: thinks human behavior is a lot more messy and a 530 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 2: lot more complicated. 531 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 12: A lot of times sometimes it's just personality disorders and 532 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 12: sometimes it's just people having, you know, being at the 533 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 12: end of their rope, because a lot of times with men, 534 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 12: eighty percent of suicides are done by men and eighty 535 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 12: percent of homicides are done by men. So when we 536 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 12: think about putting hurt on other people, you were usually 537 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 12: hurting inside. So unfortunately, even though patriarchy mostly benefits men, 538 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 12: a lot of men are really emotionally struggling in this 539 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 12: system and it's making them want to have power over someone, 540 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 12: which is where they told their value was. So yeah, 541 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 12: a lot of distorted masculinity. I wish we could see 542 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 12: more divine masculinity. 543 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 2: I just want to re ask that question about if 544 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 2: you have advice for how I should approach mentally, like 545 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 2: listening to the rest of this series and the listener. 546 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 12: Really identify who you want to be in this story. 547 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 12: Are you the witness you know? Are you you know 548 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 12: giving the perspective of the victims or the predator or society? 549 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 12: You know? First of all, understand and be consistent with 550 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 12: who you want to be while you tell this story. 551 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 12: The framework of what the hook is and how you 552 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 12: want people to feel. Always work backwards right, reverse engineized 553 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 12: for what you want people to be left with, and 554 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 12: then you know what your duty is. 555 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 9: Right. 556 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 12: Okay, I need to be distanced, I need to be 557 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 12: data data centered, right, But at the heart of it 558 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 12: is the reason you can tell the story better than 559 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 12: anybody else is because you do have some of the 560 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 12: lived experience, you know, and some of the understood fear, 561 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 12: which is important, you know, which we need more acknowledgment 562 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 12: of our fear. So I would love to see more empathy, understanding, 563 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 12: and advocacy for the pain and the fear that black 564 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 12: gay men go through. So we have a very big, 565 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 12: you know, responsibility with that, you know, but don't let 566 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 12: the weight of that, you know, sit on your spirit 567 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 12: because your spirit is strong. This just piece obviously called 568 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 12: to you, so you know, just do right by it, 569 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 12: whatever that looks like for you. As far as like 570 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 12: how you spiritually protect yourself and emotionally protect yourself. Be 571 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 12: grateful for your life. Be grateful for, like you said, 572 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 12: this couldn't be you, the perspective and the foundation and 573 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 12: the tribal support, familiar support that allowed you to be 574 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 12: able to even have enough distance and enough power and 575 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 12: privilege to be able to tell this story from a 576 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 12: reporter and not from the victims' families, you know, So 577 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 12: I just encourage you to do right by that. Feel 578 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 12: encouraged and empowered for all the people who don't get 579 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 12: a voice in this story, because it's a really beautiful thing. 580 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 12: You know. In Spanish they say dolora compartita as do 581 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 12: lord vida, which means forgive my Spanish accent, but it 582 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 12: means pain shared is pain halft, you know. And Black 583 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 12: people don't need to feel the weight and the pressure 584 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 12: and the pain of the struggle all the time. You know, 585 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 12: we do need respect, rights and protection. And I think 586 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 12: you could do a really great job with that story 587 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 12: from that lens. 588 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,479 Speaker 2: That was the therapist, coach and sometimes comedian the West 589 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 2: African b Arthur. Talking to her has really helped me 590 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: with this podcast, and you can find her at barthurtherapy 591 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 2: dot com. 592 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 3: That's the show. 593 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 2: In the next episode, with ed Buck finally arrested and 594 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 2: going to trial, we turn to that trial. Getting their 595 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 2: day in court will be an uphill battle for the 596 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 2: families of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean. One of the 597 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: problems in getting a conviction would be finding the people 598 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 2: to testify. This is Shattering the System. Your host Sinnar England. 599 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 2: Shattering the System is a production of Macro Studios and 600 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host Sinnar England. Follow me at 601 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 2: so naar I one on Instagram. Our series executive producers 602 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: are Charles King, Asha Corpus, Win Royal Reccio, Jonathan Hunger, 603 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 2: Lindsay Hoffman and Scenario Glinton. 604 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 3: That's Me. 605 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 2: Our show is co written and produced by Ralph Cooper 606 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 2: the Third. Erica Rodriguez is our associate producer. Dana Conway 607 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 2: is our archival producer. Chris Mann is our audio engineer. 608 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 2: Sound design and music provided by Chris Mann with pod 609 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 2: Shaper special thanks to Karen Grigsby, Bates Portia, Amigas Robertson 610 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 2: and Lisa Pollock. Clips provided by Michelle Thomas of the 611 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 2: Jamel and Tim documentary. We'll be back next week, See 612 00:35:39,840 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: you next time, can 613 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 3: Con Can Can