1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to brain Stuff, production of I Heart Radio. Hey 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: brain Stuff. Lauren Vogelbaum here, a reporter at The New 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: York Times, a U S senator running for president, a 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: first lady, a revered country music star, a civil rights icon, 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: each of them, along with thousands of students every year, 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: uncounted scientists and doctors, titans of business and speakers at 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: the local rotary club, filmmakers and musicians and dancers and architects. 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: They're all virtual thieves, swiping the work words and ideas 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: of others and passing them off as their own. They 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: are plagiarists. We spoke with David Reddinger, a professor of 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: psychology at the University of Mary Washington and Fredericksburg, Virginia, 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: and the president of the International Center for Academic Integrity. 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: He said, it's a particular problem in academia because we 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: care so much about the process. I say this to 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: my students all the time. I don't care that you 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: give me a clean paper. I care that you write 17 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: a paper. It's like sending someone to the gym for you. 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: It completely defer it's the purpose. But let's take a 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: step back and define plagiarism. Going to the old faithful 20 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: of American English definitions Miriam Webster. Plagiarism is quote to 21 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: steal and pass off the ideas or words of another 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: as one's own, to use another's production without crediting the source, 23 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: or to commit literary theft present a new and original 24 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: and idea or product derived from an existing source. For 25 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: one example, we could simply have copied those definitions, which 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: in fact we did not changed a word ditto, and 27 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: not credited Miriam Webster. But then, of course we'd be 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: flat out plagiarizing, or at the very least trampling on 29 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: the line between plagiarism and the safer albeits leazy word cribbing. 30 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: But since we credited Mariam Webster, it's an attribution, not plagiarism. 31 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: The article version of this episode even provided a link. 32 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: Plagiarism is not always that cut and paste easy, though 33 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: The legal definition is as legally as often is murky. 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: This is from Cornell Law School's Legal Information Institute. Quote 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: deliberately passing off somebody else's original expression or creative ideas 36 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: as one's own. Plagiarism can be a violation of law 37 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: if copyrighted expression is taken. Often, however, plagiarism does not 38 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: violate any law, but instead simply marks the plagiarists as 39 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: an unethical person in the political, academic, or scientific community 40 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: where the plagiarism occurs. So then, what about taking information 41 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: from someone else, twisting a few words around, maybe changing 42 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: a name or two, and passing it off as your own. 43 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: How much do you have to change to avoid plagiarism? 44 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 1: How much borrowing is too much? Where do you draw 45 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: the line? Rettinger said, it's always okay to use the 46 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: ideas or the words of somebody else. That's not the problem. 47 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: The problem is acknowledging your sources. Different disciplines and different 48 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: situations have different expectations of what's yours and what's shared. Lawyers, 49 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: for another example, can use similar wording in legal briefs, 50 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: maybe even the exact wording. But that may be more 51 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: generally acceptable it is Reddinger says, shared language in their profession. 52 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: But what about scientists or researchers borrowing straight from another 53 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: paper that was based on original research? Or how about 54 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: this example from journalism, a big news site, say taking 55 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: chunks of a story reported and written by another site. 56 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: If it's a one thousand word article done by site 57 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: A and site B uses eight hundred words of it. 58 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: Verbatim is that okay, even if site BE credits site A, 59 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: is that plagiarism? If we can't decide on a precise definition, 60 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: we could probably at least agree it's pretty lame. Though 61 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: it may be that plagiarizers and the plagiarized aren't seeing 62 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: eye to eye, which brings us to another question. Who 63 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: would do such a thing? Students all the time, researchers sometimes, 64 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: According to one study, close to ten percent of retracted 65 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: journal articles were pulled because of plagiarism. Politicians sometimes. For example, 66 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: former U. S Senator and Vice President Joe Biden famously 67 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: was accused of it in a speech and years after 68 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: the fact, admitted to plagiarism he committed as a student, 69 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: though he said it wasn't malevolent. First ladies have Melania 70 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: Trump has been dogged by rumors of plagiarism and speeches 71 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: ever since her opening night address at the Republican National Convention. 72 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: In journalists, as we've pointed out, musicians to Johnny Cash 73 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: has been accused, and poets and writers. A Latin root 74 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: of the word plagiarism was used all the way back 75 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: in ancient Roman times to describe poets plundering one another's works. 76 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 1: Sometimes we should acknowledge plagiarism is accidental, though. A student 77 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: borrowing an idea from a website while doing research past 78 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: some information into a paper they're working on and forgets 79 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: to attribute it. Obviously, it's a small problem when it's 80 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: a sentence or a brief paragraph. It's a bigger problem 81 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: when several paragraphs or chapters make their way into a paper. 82 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: But some, of course steal on purpose, never intending to 83 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: give others credit. But why. One explanation is laziness, or 84 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: at least an unwillingness to put in the necessary effort 85 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: due to a lack of drive or a lack of time, 86 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: or perhaps expediency. Another explanation is a desire for acceptance 87 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: or a good grade, or maybe a lack of talent, 88 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: or at least a perceived lack of talent. Rettinger said, 89 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: plagiarism begins, I think at the core when a person 90 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: doesn't see the value in creating the work themselves. The 91 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: ones that get me are the students that just don't 92 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: feel like they can do the work. Those are the 93 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: ones that make me the saddest for those who don't 94 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: plagiarize accidentally, and of course it was an accident. As 95 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: the first line of defense for any plagiarist, there are 96 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: any number of reasons to go rogue. In a plagiarist's mind, 97 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: if you're never caught, it's not wrong. It becomes acceptable. 98 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: A former American journalist Jason Blair, fabricated quotes, dreamed up 99 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: things that never happened, stole entire passages from published news 100 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: accounts verbatim, then concocted dozens and dozens of stories, passing 101 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: them off as fact under his byline in The New 102 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: York Times, and he got away with it for years. 103 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: He tried to explain him off to Duke student reporters 104 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: in sixteen, saying, once you do something that crosses any 105 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 1: ethical line, it is easy to go back and do 106 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: it over and over. I danced around it and then 107 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: crossed it and had a real hard time coming back. 108 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: But with plagiarism's moving definition, it's difficult to pin down 109 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: exactly how many word and idea thieves are among us. 110 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: The biggest battle in the never ending war against plagiarism 111 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: remains in academia, and it's certainly not limited to high schoolers. 112 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: One study, for example, found that more than half a 113 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 1: four hundred medical students surveyed said they had plagiarized, even 114 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: in the halls of higher learning, though it's hard to 115 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: determine how widespread the problem is. Schools often contract commercial 116 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: firms to use their software to try to catch plagiarism, 117 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: and aside from those, there are online plagiarism checkers that 118 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: compare written papers to a database of published material, sometimes 119 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: for free. These services can be useful both for people 120 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: looking to catch plagiarists and for writers looking to avoid it. 121 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: Rattinger said, it depends on how hard you look and 122 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: what subject you teach and to whom. In terms of 123 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: wholesale plagiarism, probably not that often, but in terms of 124 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: maybe a paragraph here or sentence here, or paragraph or 125 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: sentence there, it depends on your definition of common. But 126 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: my impression is that it's fairly common. It's an arms race, 127 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: and as long as it's on, we're going to lose 128 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: because there are more of them and they're very motivated. 129 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: Slowing plagiarism, though can be a goal. It's critical for educators, 130 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: Writtinger says, to teach students the very real worth of 131 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: researching and writing their own work, and it's important to 132 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: make students and other would be plagiarists understand that both 133 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,119 Speaker 1: sides lose when you try to take credit for another 134 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: person's work, words, or ideas. First of all, you're denying 135 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,119 Speaker 1: yourself the valuable, affirming experience of creating your own work. 136 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: And second of all, it could hurt that credibility you're 137 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: trying to cheat your way into in the long run. 138 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: We also spoke with Jonathan Bailey, a writer in businessman 139 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: who runs the website Plagiarism Today. He said, you might 140 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: be able to get away with it in the short term, 141 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: but it's not just getting away with it in the 142 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: short term. It's about trying to get away with it forever, 143 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: and that is a losing battle. It's almost inevitable that 144 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: you'll get caught in the long term, So be thinking 145 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: about it, not in just terms of today, but could 146 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: this ever come back to bite you. Today's episode was 147 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: written by John Donovan and produced by Tyler Clang. Brain 148 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: Stuff is a production of I Heeart Radio's How Stuff Works. 149 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: For more in this and lots of other topics that's 150 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: cite their sources, visit our home Planet, how Stuff works 151 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: dot com and for more podcasts. For my heart Radio, 152 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 153 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.