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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: The Delphi murders suspects called eight words to his wife.

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Speaker 1: I did it.

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Speaker 2: I killed Abby and Libby. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: We also know by three o'clock nobody's hearing them. They're

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Speaker 3: nobody's screaming, nobody's running, nobody's calling on their phones. Again,

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Speaker 3: this was a very fast deal, and y'all, here's the reality.

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Speaker 3: Most children that are going to be murdered or murdered

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Speaker 3: in the first three hours.

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Speaker 4: As the defense continues to make their case, Judge Francis

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Speaker 4: Gaull makes a decision, infuriating the families of Libby German

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Speaker 4: and Abby Williams. The defense admitting into evidence nearly two

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Speaker 4: hours of videos of Richard Allen filmed during his thirteen

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Speaker 4: months of suicide watch and solitary confinement, but the rules

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Speaker 4: that due to the explicit scenes contained in some of

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Speaker 4: the videos, only the jury will be able to see

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Speaker 4: the videos. Defense attorney Brad Rossi thanks Judge gulf for

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Speaker 4: her decision, saying, quote, out of respect for various parties,

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Speaker 4: including my client and his dignity, this is the most

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Speaker 4: professional way of dealing with.

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Speaker 2: This his dignity. What about Abby and Libby's dignity? Portrayed

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Speaker 2: on a big screen in the courtroom, one of them

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Speaker 2: button naked, mortal wounds, slashes to their throat, slash upon

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Speaker 2: slash to the girl's throat, them and death. Now I'm

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Speaker 2: supposed to be worried about Richard Allen's so called dignity,

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Speaker 2: a man that confessed sixty one plus times.

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Speaker 1: He even said, why won't anybody believe me? I did it?

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Speaker 2: Now the defense is okay, ignore all the sixty one

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Speaker 2: confessions because he was clearly in the midst of a

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Speaker 2: psychotic break. Well, today I will bring on a panel

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Speaker 2: of experts that will show you he was not in

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Speaker 2: the middle of a psychotic break from everything ranging from

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Speaker 2: psychoanalysis to the cold hard facts. Even one of the

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Speaker 2: shrinks that was seeing him nearly every.

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Speaker 1: Day says he faked it. What's happening in the courtroom

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 2: But also tonight we delve into attacks on the victims' families.

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Speaker 2: I first found out about this a while back. Susan

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Speaker 2: and Hendricks and I discussed it at the courthouse. I

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Speaker 2: then went on a fact finding mission and found the

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Speaker 2: attacks on the victims' families, even claiming, believe it or not,

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Speaker 2: that the victim sister Kelsey, is the quote real killer's evil.

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Speaker 1: It's hateful, it's vile.

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Speaker 2: Many people ben iver backwards to defend this declaim.

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Speaker 1: It's not happening.

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Speaker 2: It is happening, and I'm going to play it for you.

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Speaker 2: But first to what is most important, not what a

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Speaker 2: bunch of YouTubers are saying online. Let's talk about what's

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Speaker 2: happening in the court of law.

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Speaker 5: Listen as videos of Richard Allen are played for the jury,

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Speaker 5: Several jurors take special note of video number seven and

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Speaker 5: frown at what they are watching. One juror takes notes,

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Speaker 5: writes something on his notepad, and shows it to the

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Speaker 5: juror next to him. During video number nine, multiple jurors

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Speaker 5: look toward Richard Allen. At one point during video number ten,

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Speaker 5: defense attorney Jennifer Auger appears deeply concerned, ultimately holding her

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Speaker 5: head in her hand and covering her mouth. Only the

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Speaker 5: jury can see the videos, and members of the gallery

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Speaker 5: can only watch the reactions of the jury and imagine

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Speaker 5: what they are watching.

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Speaker 2: Straight out to Susan Henry, who has not missed a

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Speaker 2: day of testimony, Susan, thank you for being with us,

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Speaker 2: Susan investigative reporter and the author of Down the Hill,

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Speaker 2: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi, which is

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Speaker 2: an amazing work. Susan, I've really learned a lot from that, Susan.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about what happened in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: The video is shown only to the jury and the defense.

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Speaker 1: I noticed the.

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Speaker 2: State never looked away or acted disgusted, but the defense

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Speaker 2: did throughout very exaggerated pantomiming. They can say anything out loud,

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Speaker 2: looking away, rolling their eyes, acting as if they were very,

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Speaker 2: very upset. Two of the jurors, one wrote something and

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Speaker 2: showed it to the other jurors. Some of them looked away.

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Speaker 2: I know you can see the video, but let me

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Speaker 2: ask you a very narrow and specific question, Susan Hendrix.

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Speaker 1: The question is what is on the video.

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Speaker 6: Allen in his cell at Westville Prison.

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Speaker 2: And what do you believe is the reason that a

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Speaker 2: couple of jurors looked away.

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Speaker 1: One juror took a note and showed it to another jurar.

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Speaker 7: Because of his treatment by the guard, being dragged at

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Speaker 7: one point. He is constantly on camera twenty four to

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Speaker 7: seven camcorder footage as well being dragged in the hallways

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Speaker 7: just against his will.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I've got a question, and let me throw this

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Speaker 2: to Bill Daily very quickly.

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Speaker 1: Bill Daily, no media, no one in the well could

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Speaker 1: see the video.

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Speaker 2: When a defendant tries to bite you or spit on you,

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Speaker 2: could you explain what is a spit mask?

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Speaker 1: Well, shouldn't ask.

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Speaker 8: Is probably something people may have seen in the movies

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Speaker 8: where it goes over someone's face to prevents them from

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Speaker 8: either biting someone sitting them, so it covers their face

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Speaker 8: in a very dramatic fashion, kind of like a Halloween.

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Speaker 9: Mess type of affair.

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Speaker 8: You know, I does who say, Nancy.

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Speaker 2: Talking about gitting typically black a hood put over a

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Speaker 2: suspect's face when he or she bites or spits on

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Speaker 2: the officer. Is that correct?

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Speaker 8: That is correct, Nancy, And I think you know, some

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Speaker 8: of the things we're talking about here. Reaction by the

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Speaker 8: jury is also probably from people who, because of their backgrounds,

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Speaker 8: have never been or seen inside of a prison, and

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Speaker 8: particularly a maximum security prison. So I probably think just

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Speaker 8: some of the kind of the ambiance of what that

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Speaker 8: what that is is quite takes him back quite a bit. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 8: how he was being agree by the by the prison guards,

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Speaker 8: and and again, you know, we have to go into

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Speaker 8: kind of the frame of mind both protect the person,

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Speaker 8: guards protecting themselves, protecting him from himself. Things they have

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Speaker 8: to do to kind of clean him and feed him

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Speaker 8: are all things that may be quite compelling.

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Speaker 2: To Bill Daily, it's always shocking for a civilian.

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Speaker 1: It's shocking for me. I don't like when a spit

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Speaker 1: mask is used.

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Speaker 2: But to you, Cheryl McCollum is joining me, forensics expert,

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Speaker 2: star of Zone seven, founder and director of the Cold

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Speaker 2: Case Research Institute. Cheryl, I don't like a spit mask

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Speaker 2: at all. I've never none of it to be used

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Speaker 2: on any of the defendants that I prosecuted. However, I

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Speaker 2: have seen a cop who was bitten and bleeding then

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Speaker 2: had to go to the hospital to get tested for

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Speaker 2: HIV from everything because he was bitten by a defendant,

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Speaker 2: a suspect, a murder suspect. I've seen cops with globs

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Speaker 2: of spit on their uniform. I've seen them spit in

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Speaker 2: the face, you know what. I don't like a spit mask,

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Speaker 2: but I understand why some.

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Speaker 1: Police use them.

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Speaker 10: I'm gonna tell you straight up, I love him in

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Speaker 10: years why it is the least aggressive thing they can

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Speaker 10: do to stop that attack.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about being you know, bit.

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Speaker 10: And you talk about somebody spitting on you, you don't

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Speaker 10: know what disease they may have. You don't know you

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Speaker 10: know what level they're going to go as far as

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Speaker 10: upping this advancement towards you law enforcement, using a spit

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Speaker 10: mask does not hurt the person and stop the threat

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Speaker 10: of further attack on that officer joining me.

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Speaker 2: Right now is the star of a YouTube channel, Gray Hughes.

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Speaker 1: Great?

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Speaker 2: What is the name of your YouTube channel? Is it

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Speaker 2: Gray Hughes Investigates?

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Speaker 1: Its great?

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you a few cross examination questions very quickly.

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Speaker 2: You refer to an incident back in twenty fifteen when

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Speaker 2: police were called to his home for a domestic dispute

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Speaker 2: as it is euphemistically called Grey Hughes since the time,

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Speaker 2: and Susan Hendricks please jump in if you know differently,

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Speaker 2: or anyone on the panel, please. Since Richard Allen has

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Speaker 2: been behind bars for the murders of Abby and Libby,

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Speaker 2: have there been formal complaints of brutality on Richard Allen

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Speaker 2: baitings anything like that, strangulations, punches to the stomach, anything anything.

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Speaker 11: Well, I this is what I'm going to say is

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Speaker 11: that when Richard Allen was in prison just before the confessions,

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Speaker 11: everything was great. He was reading, he was exercising, and

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Speaker 11: he was studying Bible, and he became religious and he

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Speaker 11: wanted to get off his chest that he wanted to

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Speaker 11: confess that he killed having Libby, and so he confessed

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Speaker 11: to his wife. And then right after that his attorney

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Speaker 11: sat up from his wife Kathy, and amazingly, he became

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Speaker 11: absolutely crazy, drooling all over his shirt, eating paper, et ce.

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Speaker 11: And there were probably incidents after that in prison. I

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Speaker 11: guess through testimony has showed that he's treaded or in

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Speaker 11: those videos that he tread to ship on the officers.

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Speaker 11: That's why he puts bags on it. But I don't

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Speaker 11: really know of any physical moments in while he's in prison.

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Speaker 11: But I think this is all absolutely contrived and created

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Speaker 11: by the SENSE team along with Richard Allen. His wife.

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Speaker 2: Richard Allen wanted to hey, you know what, Gray Hughes,

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Speaker 2: I've been reading a lot and one guy online He's

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Speaker 2: named Cajun dvl dog Dawg, and he says, to your point,

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Speaker 2: no human interaction, and most of Allen's detainment he had

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Speaker 2: a guard and or inmate companion assigned him. Twenty four

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Speaker 2: to seven, he was given an iPad, broke it, received

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Speaker 2: another one. How many inmates get that?

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Speaker 1: Does? Did he have an iPad? Rex Huwerman. He goes

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Speaker 1: on to.

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Speaker 2: Say, what about the fact Alan would only act out

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Speaker 2: when people were watching, but then on camera he would

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Speaker 2: refuse three meals because he knew if he refused four

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Speaker 2: it had to be reported. I think what happens is

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Speaker 2: Susan Hendrix, doesn't he refuse four, because once you refuse

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Speaker 2: four meals in a row, it gets reported as inmate

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Speaker 2: refusing to eat.

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Speaker 6: Exactly he was playing the system.

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Speaker 2: Okay, now back to my and I'm going to follow

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Speaker 2: up with you Gray Hughes, about whether this is all

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Speaker 2: uh Se Cannery a fake or not. But I want

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Speaker 2: to get back to the question because I'm very concerned

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Speaker 2: about claims that the video that was shown to the

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Speaker 2: jury showed barbaric treatment was a spitmask used. Maybe you've

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Speaker 2: got to ask yourself why and why at that moment

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Speaker 2: was he picked up and carried Was it because he

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Speaker 2: wouldn't walk. Was it because he didn't want to go

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Speaker 2: to court? Was it because he didn't want to go

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Speaker 2: to some sort of evaluation and he had to go

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Speaker 2: but refused to get up and walk. So again I'd

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Speaker 2: like a yes no answer, Susan Hendrix or Gray Hughes.

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Speaker 2: Do you know of any complaint filed by the defense

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Speaker 2: about brutality behind bars? That is a very simple yes.

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Speaker 2: No Susan Hendricks No, okay?

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Speaker 11: Also what Gray, I didn't say no. Also, I haven't

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Speaker 11: heard that at all.

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Speaker 2: Let me go to veteran trial lawyer Philip Debay. He

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Speaker 2: is an LA County public defender. My sworn enemies that said.

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Speaker 2: He is in court every day of his life when

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Speaker 2: he's not here with us trying cases.

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Speaker 1: He knows his way around the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: Philip Debay, take off your defense hat just one moment, Okay.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me with a straight face, if Richard

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Speaker 2: Allen had ever been beaten, had a bruise, was slapped

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Speaker 2: in the face, punched in the stomach, suffocated, strangled, electrocuted, waterboarded,

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Speaker 2: if you want to tell me, the defense would not

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Speaker 2: have filed a complaint and we would not be hearing

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 1: In opening statements and more. Without a question.

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Speaker 12: The first thing that we do is Defense Council is

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Speaker 12: we have an obligation to protect our clients, not only

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Speaker 12: legally but holistically. If we get word that anything is

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Speaker 12: happening to our clients behind bars, we are duty bound

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Speaker 12: to bring it to the court's attention, to the warden

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Speaker 12: of the jail facility, and to get the court to

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Speaker 12: make an order to protect the inmate. And absent any

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Speaker 12: type of allegation, we have to assume that jail officials

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Speaker 12: are doing their job. I can tell you, in addition

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Speaker 12: to being in court everyday, Nancy, I am also in

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Speaker 12: the lockups. Those lockups are lit up with cameras everywhere

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Speaker 12: they are in the jail cells, they are in the halls.

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Speaker 11: There is a.

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Speaker 12: Special unit that looks like mission control where they have

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Speaker 12: several sheriff deputies manning all the cameras. They can see

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Speaker 12: in real time everything that is happening in the halls

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Speaker 12: and in each individual jail cell. And I can assure you,

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Speaker 12: without even meeting the people who worked at this facility

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Speaker 12: that if they saw anything untoward being perpetrated against any

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Speaker 12: inmate by their own staff, it would have gone to

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Speaker 12: internal affairs and people would be out on disciplinary leave

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Speaker 12: pending a thorough investigation.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stores with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 13: During the second round of video showings for the jury, again,

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Speaker 13: only the jury can see the videos of Richard Allen

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Speaker 13: while he being held at Westfield Correctional Facility. During the

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Speaker 13: plane of video thirteen, Attorney Baldwin turns away shaking his head.

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Speaker 13: During video fourteen, three jurors sit uncomfortably while defense attorney

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Speaker 13: Auger is seen looking away. Video number fifteen is thirty

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Speaker 13: four minutes long, and multiple jurors are seen taking notes.

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Speaker 13: Of the fifteen videos, the defense shows the jury for

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Speaker 13: containing nudity, while others show Richard Allen being transported to

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Speaker 13: receive medical care. None of the videos shown in court

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Speaker 13: have audio joining us.

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Speaker 2: In all star panels straight out to Susan Hendricks joining us.

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Speaker 2: She's been in the courtroom throughout the trial, Susan, thank

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Speaker 2: you for being with us. I noticed that the people

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Speaker 2: in the courtroom that can see the video the ones

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Speaker 2: that are reacting the most of the defense lawyers.

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Speaker 7: Exactly exactly with Jennifer Auger looking horrified and mind you.

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Speaker 1: Discovery was given.

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Speaker 7: To Richard Allen on April third, and I believe after

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Speaker 7: that is when he started to really laid on and pretend,

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Speaker 7: in my opinion, to be crazy.

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Speaker 2: So this video, I understand why the victims family is

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Speaker 2: so upset. Joining me in addition to doctor Bethany Marshall

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Speaker 2: is Professor of Forensics Forensics at Jacksonville State University, author

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Speaker 2: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Star Body

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Speaker 2: Bags with Joe Scott Morgan, a hit podcast.

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Speaker 1: For my purposes, I.

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Speaker 2: Want you to know that he is a death investigator

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Speaker 2: and he has investigated thousands, probably ever ten thousand death scenes,

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Speaker 2: be the suicide, accident, homicide, voluntary, you name it. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 2: I'm coming to you on this question because of all

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Speaker 2: the indignities that you've seen on victims. And I remember

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Speaker 2: one of the last cases I tried, not the last,

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Speaker 2: but one of the last.

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Speaker 1: It was a serial killer.

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Speaker 2: We can only get him on one case, and she

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Speaker 2: was a Jane Doe, which, as you know, greatly handicapped

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Speaker 2: my case because I didn't know anything about her, where

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Speaker 2: she had been, she fraternized with nothing. I had one shot,

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Speaker 2: one shot, and I remember at the end of the trial,

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Speaker 2: darkened courtroom, doing a slideshow and I had to put

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Speaker 2: the victim up on a screen. I also had to

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Speaker 2: put an autopsy photo up on the screen where her

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Speaker 2: skin was pulled back from her head so you could

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Speaker 2: see subdural hemorrhaging.

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Speaker 1: I felt sick because I had to show these photos

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Speaker 1: of my dead victim.

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Speaker 2: Now Here everybody seen photos of Abby and Libby. One

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Speaker 2: of them Libby naked with their throats slashed open. One

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Speaker 2: of them crying, her tears diluted with blood, laying out

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Speaker 2: in the middle of a cold, cold creek, sigh area.

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Speaker 1: No wonder. The victim's family is angry.

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Speaker 2: Because we are protecting the dignity of Richard Allen while

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Speaker 2: he's naked and masturbating.

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Speaker 1: We don't want anybody to see that. But it's okay

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Speaker 1: to show these girls.

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Speaker 2: I mean, explain these photos, show Scott what was published

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Speaker 2: about these girls.

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Speaker 1: And it had to be. It had to be.

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Speaker 2: I'm not seeing the States wrong because that is the

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Speaker 2: truth of the crimes on Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, here lay the evidence before you, literally and figuratively.

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Speaker 9: I can't take them out there to that moment in time,

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Speaker 9: but you can recreate it in this environment and let

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Speaker 9: them see what was wrought upon these, you know, these

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Speaker 9: two little angels in this particular circumstance. But you know,

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Speaker 9: I've been given some thought to this, Nancy, And I

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Speaker 9: was really thinking just a few moments ago, why in

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Speaker 9: the world people begin to turn away, you know, when

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Speaker 9: they're bearing witness to what had happened or what was

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Speaker 9: going on in that videography, and what is it that

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Speaker 9: would be so shocking to them? Remember what ROSSI said,

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Speaker 9: who I believe is one of the defense attorneys at

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Speaker 9: one point in time with Alan. He made mention that,

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Speaker 9: you know, Allan was involved in some pretty repugnant stuff

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Speaker 9: in jail, and I don't know if you want to

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Speaker 9: get on this road, but you know he was engaging

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Speaker 9: in the eating of his own waste, which you know,

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Speaker 9: to me, you know, they want to talk about things like,

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Speaker 9: you know, these red herrings, you know, like odinism and

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Speaker 9: all these sorts of things. When you begin to examine

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Speaker 9: what's going on with this guy to what links he'll

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Speaker 9: engage in these behaviors to demonstrate that he's I don't know,

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Speaker 9: matt as a hatter perhaps, But you know, this is

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Speaker 9: a condition called corpor phasia or corporophelia, and we've seen

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Speaker 9: this with people that perpetrate these kind of sadistic sex crimes.

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Speaker 9: He's also stated in one of his comments that he

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Speaker 9: was a sex addict. You know, immediately when I heard

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Speaker 9: all of this, Nancy, I was thinking, this takes me

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Speaker 9: back in time to a case that's one of the

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Speaker 9: most notorious, which involves Albert Fish who loved killing children

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Speaker 9: and he mutilated children. He was also into corporate filia

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Speaker 9: and corporate phasia as well. And I really wonder if

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Speaker 9: this is a reflection of what you're seeing, and he'll

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Speaker 9: remember he no longer has access to individuals that he

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Speaker 9: can abuse, but within this environment part of sexual fantasy,

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Speaker 9: with corporate failure or corpora phasia, he has access to this.

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Speaker 9: He's acting out in this environment, Nancy, joining me.

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Speaker 2: As I mentioned earlier, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction,

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Speaker 2: doctor Bethany Marshall. Many people are claiming he became imbalanced

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Speaker 2: from being in solitary, which by the way, was for

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Speaker 2: his own That's right. You want to tell me those

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Speaker 2: inmates wouldn't have trying to tear him apart if they

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Speaker 2: found out. Ha's the guy chars with killing Abby and

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Speaker 2: Libby that's why he's in solitary.

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Speaker 1: But have you ever seen.

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Speaker 2: People become overwrought with guilt at what they've done?

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Speaker 6: Nancy, he's doing something called malingering. He's making up psychosis.

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Speaker 6: And the reason I can tell is that he was

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Speaker 6: admitted with THEE or he was incarcerated with the diagnosis

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Speaker 6: of depression and anxiety. He was probably depressed and anxious

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Speaker 6: because he'd been caught. Then they diagnosed him with a

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Speaker 6: brief psychotic episode, which is less than a month, but

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Speaker 6: the confessions lasted way longer than a month. Also, the

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Speaker 6: psychologist says that his confessions are very concise, and what

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Speaker 6: that means is that he had a clear storyline that

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Speaker 6: he repeated to his wife again and again. Now, if

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Speaker 6: he was psychotic when he was making those confessions, Lage

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Speaker 6: would be rambling, bizarre, incoherent, and with something that we

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Speaker 6: call loose associations. And loose association is I saw buttercups

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Speaker 6: and because of.

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Speaker 1: That the sun is shining.

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Speaker 6: Well, the two could be kind of linked, kind of,

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Speaker 6: but the sun shining has very little to do with

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Speaker 6: the fact that the person saw buttercups, so he would

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Speaker 6: have that same kind of a weird presentation in terms

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Speaker 6: of talking about the crime. I've read his confessions, Nancy.

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Speaker 6: He's very clear he's trying to convince his wife that

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Speaker 6: he did do this, and all of this like rolling

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Speaker 6: on the ground and eating his specs and you know,

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Speaker 6: flushing his Bible down the toilet. I call that dramatics, hysteria,

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Speaker 6: being a drama queen just so.

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Speaker 1: That he can look like he's crazy.

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Speaker 2: There is a problem with one of the state's witnesses,

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Speaker 2: the shrink that was interacting with him almost every day.

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Speaker 2: We now find out it was a true crime sleuth. Okay,

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Speaker 2: does that matter? No, But it does if she sowed

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Speaker 2: an interest in the Delphi case, because it's going to

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Speaker 2: be argued in closing arguments by the defense that she

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Speaker 2: had already formed an opinion that her opinion was somehow

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Speaker 2: slanted because of her own investigation. We'll see what happens

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Speaker 2: with that. Let's talk about Brad Weber.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 5: Officer Christopher Gutti of the Hammond Police Department tells the

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Speaker 5: jury about the importance of interviewing witnesses and suspects, and

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Speaker 5: when he is asked about interviewing Brad Weber, Guti doesn't

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Speaker 5: remember much Brad Weber says he arrives home around two

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Speaker 5: thirty PM the afternoon, Abby and Libby vanish. He lives

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Speaker 5: in the area and is driving a white van. In

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Speaker 5: one of his confessions, Richard Allen talks of being spooked

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Speaker 5: by a white van.

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Speaker 1: Says in Henricks, what's the significance of the white van?

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Speaker 1: It is huge.

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Speaker 7: Brad Weber gets off of work at two o four,

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Speaker 7: get getting him home around that time, around two thirty

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Speaker 7: That is when, in his own words, Richard Allen said

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Speaker 7: he was interrupted by a van. To me, that puts

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Speaker 7: the timeline that puts him there something only the murderer

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Speaker 7: would know.

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Speaker 14: I think it's huge.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of Brad Weber, a lot of sleuths online are

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Speaker 2: pointing to him as a potential suspect.

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Speaker 14: Listen, trying to create doubt about the unspent round found

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Speaker 14: between Liby and Abbey, the defense asked about Brad Weber

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Speaker 14: owning a six hour gun, the same type gun Richard

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Speaker 14: Allen owns, which prosecutors use to link him to the

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Speaker 14: murders with the unspent round. Mullen tells the jury that

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Speaker 14: Weber's gun was collected and tested and it isn't a

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Speaker 14: match for the unspent round just got Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Let me go to you on this.

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Speaker 2: A bullet, even if it is not fire from the gun,

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Speaker 2: if it's cycled through, like somebody racks the gun but

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Speaker 2: doesn't shoot it, that gun leaves a specific indentation on

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Speaker 2: the cartridge and on the bullet.

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Speaker 1: The bullet found near Abby and Libby's.

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Speaker 2: Body is absolutely matched back to Richard Allen brad Weber right.

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Speaker 9: And the way that works. I have a dummy gun

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Speaker 9: here that we use at Jack State, but right here

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Speaker 9: is the ejection port Nancy. So if you imagine the

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Speaker 9: slide going back and ejecting the round out, it'll go

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Speaker 9: up into the right and rear. They're a little what

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Speaker 9: other referred to astrations on the caseinge itself. The casing

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Speaker 9: is kind of a soft brass. So you have ejector

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Speaker 9: marks and you have an extractor marks. And because it's

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Speaker 9: metal and metal, it is unique to that weapon. Now

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Speaker 9: it's not as unique as rifling marks, but for ejector marks,

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Speaker 9: it is very specific.

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Speaker 2: And Gray Hughes joining me from Gray Hughes Investigates on YouTube. Gray,

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Speaker 2: let me be clear, brad Weber's gun did not match

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Speaker 2: the bullet found near the victims' bodies.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct?

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Speaker 11: Yes, I believe they were. It couldn't be excluded, but

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Speaker 11: it didn't match. You know where Richard Allen actually matched personally.

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Speaker 11: I believe he is the bridge guy. I can work

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Speaker 11: through the timeline and he's trapped in. On the thirteenth,

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Speaker 11: girls were killed on the fourteenth, they found the bodies.

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Speaker 11: On the fifteenth they put the picture of the bridge

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00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 11: guy in the paper. The very next day, to sixteenth,

440
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 11: he calls the tip line. He probably saw himself in

441
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 11: the in the papers, called the tip line. They asked

442
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 11: to talk to that person to see what they may

443
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 11: have seen, and then Van Doolin talked to him two

444
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 11: days later on the eighteenth. Then he tells them that

445
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 11: he was there from one thirty to three thirty, and

446
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 11: there's evidence that his card at one twenty seven drives

447
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 11: by the Hoosier Harvestore black vehicle matching his description with

448
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 11: the same rims and everything, drives by the Hoosier Harvestore

449
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 11: coming from the east to the west. And just after

450
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 11: that he says he went through the Freedom Bridge a

451
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 11: passed three girls. Then when they interviewed the three, there

452
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 11: was three girls came for it and they saw him.

453
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 11: So those three girls saw him and he saw them.

454
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 11: That makes that truth that that's him coming in right there.

455
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 11: Then it takes eleven minutes to walk to the bridge,

456
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 11: and about one thirty five is when he passed those girls,

457
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 11: so eleven minutes would be one forty six. Bessy Blair

458
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 11: gets out of her car at the parking area at

459
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 11: one forty seven, walks down the trail. Richard Allen could

460
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 11: not have passed her because there wouldn't be time. It

461
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 11: takes six minutes to get back there. She goes to

462
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 11: the bridge and he's standing on platform one, exactly where

463
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 11: Richard Allen said he was standing when he went to

464
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 11: the bridge.

465
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: You know what, the way you lay that out, Gray

466
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: is amazing. Cheryl McCollum, there's more to exclude Weber.

467
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 4: Listen the defense trying to add more questions about Brad

468
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 4: Weber into Steve Mullen's time on the stand, and Mullen

469
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 4: admits there are some inconsistencies in what he has said

470
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 4: about what he was doing after work the day in question. However,

471
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 4: on cross examination, Steve Mullen points out phone records back

472
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 4: up Weber's again of driving straight home after work and

473
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 4: arriving in his white van around two thirty pm the

474
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 4: afternoon Libby and Abbey were killed.

475
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: I learned in the courtroom at Delphi that attacks have

476
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 2: been made, brutal, vicious attacks on Abby and Libby's family.

477
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: I hated to give the.

478
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: Names of the YouTubers attacking them because I felt it

479
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: would only give them more attention, But under much attack,

480
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: I will now do so.

481
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: Listen.

482
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 15: Revelations from the State of Indiana's case against Rick Allen

483
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 15: have thus far exposed the collusion, incompetence and utter fraud

484
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 15: that has taken place regarding the murders of fourteen year

485
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 15: old Liberty Roseland German and thirteen year old Abigail Joyce

486
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 15: Williams in February twenty seventeen.

487
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: That is from YouTube, from a program purporting to be

488
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: True Crime Design and more.

489
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 15: The implications of such revelations are nothing new to me

490
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 15: or my subscribers, but merely confirm our beliefs and suspicions

491
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 15: as to what happened to Abby and Libby.

492
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: Again from True Crime Design. They claim to know what

493
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: really happened here.

494
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: They clang that the shot.

495
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 2: All the girls on the bridge has been faked and

496
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: they implicate sister Kelsey.

497
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 15: Listen, this image is not real, nor is it the

498
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 15: last photograph of Abigail, just moments before the killer approached.

499
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 15: It first appeared on Facebook, not through law enforcement. It

500
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,719
Speaker 15: is an edited combination of this authentic photograph of Abby

501
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 15: playing softball in a hotel parking lot and the bridge

502
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 15: guy image itself, which is a template of sorts.

503
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: Susan Hendricks is joining me, investigative reporter and author of

504
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: Down the Hill, My descent into the double murder in Delphi.

505
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: You have heard this and so many more attacks on

506
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: the victims' families. I know what it feels like to

507
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 2: be the tangential victim of murder.

508
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: When the one you love the most most is murdered.

509
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: How is this affecting the family that they are being

510
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: accused Kelsey specifically, it's being mentioned critically involved in the

511
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: murder of her sister.

512
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: It's hard to.

513
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 7: Even fathom that it happens, but it doesn't. Becky Patty

514
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 7: sees this.

515
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: She knows it.

516
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 7: You're hurtful, and this person, by the way, showed up

517
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 7: at the July hearing at the end of July. It's disgusting.

518
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 7: They have no moral compass. It's pathetic and the family

519
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 7: sees it and it hurts them even more.

520
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: If that's possible, and more from true crime design.

521
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 15: I believe she led the girls to their assailants, who attacked, subdued,

522
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 15: and abducted them before eventually killing them at the scene

523
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 15: by the creek. I also believe, based on physical evidence

524
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 15: at the crime scene, that this was in fact a

525
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 15: ritualistic killing, a blood offering to the gods or demonic

526
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 15: entities that the people of Delphi worship.

527
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: I've got to bring in you're hearing true crime design

528
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: and they're a lot more, by the way, other than

529
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: true crime design.

530
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

531
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: Joining me is a renowned defense attorney out of La

532
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: Philip Dubay Dubai.

533
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: You get one.

534
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: Person on the jury to hear some of these crackpot

535
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories.

536
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: I mean, did you hear the last one?

537
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 2: Debay a blood offering to the gods or demonic entities

538
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: that the people of Delphi worship.

539
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 12: We have to trust that jurors do the right thing

540
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 12: and they follow the court's orders, and they're not going

541
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 12: to follow social media. They're not going to read the news.

542
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 12: They're not going to talk about the case to outsiders.

543
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 11: Now.

544
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 12: Having said that, it does not in any way diminish

545
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 12: the effect that this YouTube channel is having on the

546
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 12: big AND's families. I know plenty of lawyers out here

547
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 12: and across this country who'd be chomping at the bit

548
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 12: to urge her to get her check book out. Because

549
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 12: you start blaming the sister for this horrific criminal act,

550
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 12: She's going to find herself behind the v in a

551
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:16,239
Speaker 12: civil court road.

552
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: Oh and there's more, Philip Dubey, you know what you

553
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: don't want on the jury is one conspiracy nut. I

554
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: looked at them, I watched their behavior. It's really hard

555
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: to judge a book by its cover. I tried to

556
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: discern what I could like I would during a regular

557
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: my own trial. Listen to this, Philip, I hope you're

558
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: sitting down.

559
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 15: Abigail and Liberty were ceremoniously killed in front of an

560
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 15: audience in the early morning hours of February fourteenth. The

561
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 15: dubious search for the victims on the night of the

562
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 15: thirteenth is a cover for the ritual.

563
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: That clip from True Crime design Let me go to

564
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,719
Speaker 2: Bill Daley, joining US former FBI investigator and forensic photography

565
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: and security expert, repeat be I investigator, Bill, why is it?

566
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: And I say this all the time.

567
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: Do people choose to leap to zany conspiracy theories as

568
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: opposed to looking at the facts, the.

569
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 8: Facts, And as Joe Friday says, it's just a facts, man,

570
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 8: just the facts, and these are not the facts. I mean,

571
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 8: there is no indication that there were any other stirred

572
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 8: up ground around the victim's bodies. There was no indication

573
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 8: that there was anything like this that went on according

574
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 8: to police reports. I mean, are people doing this for

575
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 8: some self serving publicity to get more likes on the

576
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 8: channel or whatever the indication is. But this is far

577
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 8: from the facts that we've heard, both in the case

578
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 8: the facts that we've discussed here on the program and

579
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 8: you laid out earlier along with some other guests. This

580
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 8: is far afield from any of that. So what their

581
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 8: true intention is except notoriety publicity, it's hard to say.

582
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: I hate to see thetim's family suffering even more than

583
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 2: they already have. Susan Hendrix, take a listen to this.

584
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 15: You see, this was a sacrificial double murder committed in

585
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 15: part by the families of the decease and the prominent

586
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 15: members of their community.

587
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 2: That clip from True Crime Design, and there the narrator

588
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: is roping in not just Kelsey, but the whole family.

589
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: Now listen to this, Susan, this is the part that

590
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: got you and I so upset.

591
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: Listen.

592
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 15: In addition to monetary rewards, fame and sympathy were garnered

593
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 15: and exploited by the family of Liberty German, especially her

594
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 15: big sister Kelsey, to no end. The family's relentless fundraising

595
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 15: and shameless media tour post murders.

596
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: That's not true. That's not true.

597
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: You are hearing sound from True Crime Design on YouTube.

598
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 2: The family is devastated, they're not doing press tours that.

599
00:34:58,760 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: That's not true.

600
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 6: None of it is.

601
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 7: If Kelsey could go back in time and not drop

602
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 7: her sister off on the thirteenth, she would have infuriates

603
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 7: me and answer, I'm sorry it is. It's pathetic and disgusting,

604
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 7: and I feel for the families like they're not going

605
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 7: through enough. They have the Abbey and Libby Memorial Park

606
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 7: in the girl's name. None of this is true, not

607
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 7: an I vote. That's not the biggest oxymoron True Prime.

608
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 7: None of what they.

609
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 11: Say is true.

610
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: Now I want to talk about another another podcast.

611
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: This is called The Murder Shape. Listen.

612
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 16: We were surprised at how much they went after Libby's family.

613
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,720
Speaker 16: These are, after all, family members who have been grieving

614
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 16: the loss of their fourteen year old sister, granddaughter, and

615
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 16: daughter since twenty seventeen. For Sadlowski, the anger towards Libby's

616
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 16: family goes deep. In a chat with Parsons and Miller

617
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 16: on January fifth, twenty twenty four, at one thirty three pm,

618
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 16: she wrote quote, I'm honestly so grossed out with the

619
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 16: virtue signaling in del fine and borderline resenting the victim families.

620
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: I don't understand this. Who could resent the victim's family, Susan.

621
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 7: I'll say, you can't make them back down, Becky Patty

622
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 7: if you listen further, they say it bothers me to

623
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 7: see their pictures over and over again, and Becky Patty

624
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 7: posted on Facebook, I hope I'm bothering you because they

625
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 7: will not stop there there every single day in court,

626
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 7: they are not letting these evil people win.

627
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: Well, you know what, You're absolutely right, Susan Hendrix. Listen

628
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: to more.

629
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: This is the host of the Murder Sheet discussing this

630
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: very issue.

631
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 16: She labeled anyone posting quote smiling, happy photos of the

632
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:43,760
Speaker 16: victims before they died as quote so irritating end quote

633
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 16: in a pine that it was simply leverage.

634
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 2: Gray Ughes joining me from the Gray Hughes investigates on YouTube.

635
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: You were hearing this sort of discussion on the murder Sheet.

636
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: Why are people.

637
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: Angry about photos of the girls in life, smiling and happy?

638
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 2: Did you hear what she says? She says she finds

639
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: it quote effing irritating.

640
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 12: Yeah.

641
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 11: I just think there's been this industry to go after

642
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 11: the family for years, so right now there's a crescendo

643
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 11: in it because of this trial. But that same YouTuber

644
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 11: that for years has been doing this, and then when

645
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 11: that hair was found in Abby's hand, because it's Kelsey's hair,

646
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 11: but they forgot to mention that the shirt that Abby

647
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 11: had on was actually Kelsey's shirt that she gave to Libby.

648
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 11: And of course there might be a hair. You know,

649
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 11: if you have long hair, it is pulled up. When

650
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 11: that hair was found, it went ah, there it is

651
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 11: the proof too.

652
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, I don't understand all the

653
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: hatred towards the victims' families.

654
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 6: Nancy, in some sick, twisted, perverted way, these YouTubers, I

655
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 6: believe are envious of Livy and Abby and the families

656
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 6: because they're getting so much notoriety, so much empathy, such

657
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 6: an outpouring of love and state resources, really trying to

658
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 6: convict Richard Allen, and these YouTubers cannot stand that somebody

659
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 6: else is getting protected, somebody else is getting attention and care,

660
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 6: so they are just this is like pouring battery acid

661
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 6: on the trial, victimizing the families, victimizing Libby and Abby,

662
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 6: treating the victims as if they are bad little girls

663
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 6: and deserve what's coming to them. And one more thing, Nancy,

664
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 6: these YouTubers are grandiose, contemptious. They're full of certitude. They

665
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 6: feel that they know better than everybody else, and they

666
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 6: are just revictimizing the family, say sant Hendricks.

667
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 2: You and I were in court last week and I

668
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 2: observed Richard Allen's wife, I believe Richard Allen's stepfather, sitting

669
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 2: on the right in front of us, at the far right,

670
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: and then there were several seats being taken up by

671
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: I guess YouTube reporters.

672
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 7: I saw the family's Isla, Nancy, when they saw you,

673
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 7: and I'm so grateful you were there.

674
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: Susan, I got to tell you, it was a day

675
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: full of heartache. It was a day full of heartache.

676
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: You and I have been covering this case, along with

677
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: Cheryl and everybody else on this panel, since it first happened.

678
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 2: That's been years in the making, pouring through documents, visiting

679
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: the scene, speaking to locals, speaking to experts. It's been

680
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: a very, very long and arduous process and a painful

681
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: process covering this. But imagine, just imagine what these victims'

682
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: families are going through every single day. Thank you to

683
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,439
Speaker 2: our guests for wading through the evidence with us.

684
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,