WEBVTT - Part One: The Birth of the Manosphere 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.640 Welcome to Behind the Bastards, the podcast where Jamie Loftus 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:10.240 has just admitted to dog fighting. Jamie, how do you 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:13.200 respond to these allegations that you made that you have 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:15.960 dogs that fight? I said I have, I have no 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:19.040 dog in this I didn't say that I have. If 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.239 you don't have a dog in this fight, that implies 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.360 you have a dog in another fight, which implies you're 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:25.360 a dog fighter. Jamie, We're not going to let these 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:30.320 allegations go away. This isn't This isn't being a dog 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:34.080 fighter and having a dog that fights and has you know, 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:38.360 a revenue stream independent of me that involves, you know, 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.800 fighting on the weekends. How would you describe your direct 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:46.160 relationship to the dog fighting industry? Jamie? How it? Okay? Um? 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:50.440 I guess. Let me be perfectly clear. My dog fights, right, 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:56.480 My dog fights, but it's because it's because he's aggressive 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:00.360 and he's got some strong opinions. I don't personally benefit 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.440 from it, and in fact, it is tanking my career actively, 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:09.000 my dog's fighting career. Well. Controversial stances from Jamie Loftus, 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.520 r E. Dog Fighting. I am Robert Evans and this 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.240 is Behind the Bastards podcast where we talk about the 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.200 worst people in all of history. Jamie, how are you 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:22.679 doing in this lovely februah jan Wary March day? Uh? 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:28.960 You know, uh, not great. But but I've started reading 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:33.840 Kathy cartoons. Oh that is a horrible sign for your 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.320 mental health. I really think that that is, that is 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.119 a symbol that I've hit some sort of all but 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:42.520 I don't know what it is. And here's the thing. 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.720 I'm laughing. You're laughing. I'm I I see ac I laugh. 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:49.440 That's where I'm at. I think you and I might 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.640 be on might be on a similar uh similar mental 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.360 track right now. Um, because I have recently gotten back 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:58.320 into reading the comics that I read as a kid. 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.600 I've been going through the old Calvin and As some 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.920 of the old Foxtrots. Yeah, the classics, the classics where 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.680 no one ever actually had a problem, they just thought 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.000 they did. And I think I might get back into 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.959 Bloom County I've been missing. I've been missing my weird 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.959 eighties comedy, a lot of making fun of Donald Trump 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.000 in the old Bloom Counties. It's true, there's a there's 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:23.160 a I've been God, my week really did evolve into 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.280 Lolita ended and I'm like, I can do whatever I want, 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:28.640 And it turns out whatever I want is reading Kathy 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.240 comics for three straight days. You know, you know she 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.640 there's a whole week in Kathy comics where she just 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.560 went to see the Big Chill. Every day in the comics, 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:41.160 she just kept going. She loved the Big Chill, and 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.160 she campaigned for Ducocus. That's what I learned about Kathy 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:50.079 this week. That is all heartbreaking. Well, Ja, your tragic 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.240 journey with Kathy is actually a perfect leading for our 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:57.120 subject today. Um as I, as I stated, you know, 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:58.960 we're gonna be doing some book episodes and you and 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.639 I are going to get into a real terrible book. Um, 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.800 but not today. Today, we're going to talk about the 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:10.600 Manno Sphere. Oh No, that's exactly what Cathy was afraid of. 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:15.000 Rub That's exactly what Cathy was warning us about. The 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:19.640 light one out of Jamie's eyes. When Robert, this is 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:21.959 going to shatter and pump myself up with Kethy for 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:26.519 three days and you just take what I've got I've earned. Okay, 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:28.520 what is what is the Manno Sphere? It sounds like 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.320 a fucking Spike TV. Get to that. I'm gonna explain 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:33.560 why we're talking about this today before we get into 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:35.119 the book that you and I are going to talk 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:39.840 about later this week. So, on January one, a non 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:45.680 binary TRANSFIM Twitter personality named Lily Simpson posted a tweet 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.120 that went so viral and inspired a whole bunch of 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.760 articles and think pieces. It's got something like a quarter 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.920 of a million shares. The tweet consisted of four images, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.240 the cover of a book titled The Sigma Mail What 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:01.240 Women Really Want Now. The cover of this book features 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:03.720 a man in a suit with a medieval sword as 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.480 the cover art. Now, next to that image were several 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:11.520 screen grabs listing the five male archetypes, which, according to 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.360 those screen grab or according to those image macros or whatever, 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.400 range from alpha males to omega males. And I think 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.200 pretty much everyone I know, I know, Jamie, you're gonna 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:26.280 hate this episode so much. Wow wow wow, Okay, this 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:28.680 episode is revenged for the things that I imagine you 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:30.600 would have said if I'd told you that Nestor mock 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:35.080 Know's nickname really meant daddy, which I guess I should. Yeah, 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:40.400 I uh, I do not forgive you. And if I 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.400 feel that there's information I'm just going to insert Daddy's 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.400 where they don't exist as a cautionary measure. I did 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.680 what I had to do to save Christmas. I understand 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.800 that it's in the rest of my life. So Verry, Cindy, lou, 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.160 who have you. Most people are familiar with the concept 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.480 of alpha males, right, the idea that some men are 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:02.800 inherent their a small chadra of men that are inherently dominant, 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:04.960 and that they're they're they're the most attractive to women 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.800 and all that stuff. Now, so that was you know, 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.040 there were in this this tweet that Lily Simpson Simpson 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:12.520 put out, there was like an image of that Sigma 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:14.080 mail book. There was an image of like the list 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.240 of all the different kinds of males, uh, and then 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.200 there was an image of a pyramid chart labeling what 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:24.320 it called the socio sexual hierarchy. Now, pyramid has alpha 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.160 at the top and omega at the bottom, and it 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:27.840 goes through all the different kinds of males. And then 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.400 outside the pyramid next to Alpha is the Sigma mail 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.400 with the explaining text the Sigma and Alpha are equal. 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:39.279 The Sigma sits outside the hierarchy by his own choice. 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:46.200 He's the the Sigma is the money, yea. And of 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:48.320 course on the other side of this pyramid is a 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:53.920 crude clip art of a wolf, because is it really 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.719 a pyramid if there is not an American wolf sitting 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.479 right next to him? Gotta be a wolf. It's a 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.320 shame has been done to the wolf. We'll be talking 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.839 about that today too. So the last, yeah, the last 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.000 image in Lily's tweet is the best a screen grab 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:11.400 of a YouTube video titled how to become Sigma Mail 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:19.480 the rarest male Type. This is like, uh, this sounds 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:23.480 like a great act of public service by Lily. Yeah, 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.360 Lily's Lily's wonderful and this was wonderful tweet that they 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.240 put together. Um. Now that the video that that screen 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.599 grab is from was host on the Alpha Show channel 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.760 and it has a hundred and thirty seven thousand views 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.479 to date. In the portion of the paused video we 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.400 see there's an image of Kiano Reeves as John Wick 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.680 next to the text rarest male type, which is not 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:48.160 strictly untrue to say that's a that's an unfair appropriation 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:52.320 of Keanu Reeves. This wholesome image it is, and I 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.279 think part of why Keanu Reeves is so magnetic is 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.400 that he has never spent a single section of his 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.919 life wondering what hierarchy of male he counts, as he 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:06.839 simply exists. I used to sell Kiana Reeves his Sudoku 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:12.160 puzzles when here. It's my favorite fact. I had another 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:14.200 friend who works who worked at the Barnes and Noble 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.320 in Santa Monica, who also sold books to Kiana Reeves. 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.920 He's a reader. He's a gentle, lovely man. I also 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.240 interviewed once the guy who does He's a guy who 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.280 does like gun training for um Hollywood films, like training 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.880 movie like action movie stars and how to use guns 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.080 on screen and stuff. And he's worked with Kiana a 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.000 lot um and every everybody loves Kiana Reeves. Everybody who 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:35.720 works with Kenna Reeves loves them. I've never heard a 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:41.080 bad thing about Kianu Man. I hate that k for evil. 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.600 He is the rarest male team is the rarest male type. 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.200 And I have a feeling that I had that has 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.040 nothing to do with I haven't seen the John Wick movies. 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.760 Are they talking about John Wicks? They're talking about John Wick, 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.400 of course, Yeah, they're talking about John Wick as the 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.960 Sigma male who stands outside the male hierarchy. So what 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.440 the fund is going on with a Sigma mail? Nonsense. 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:04.600 We're going to talk about that. The unreadable book that 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:08.000 we're going to read on Thursday is about the Sigma mail. 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.800 It's the book that Lily featured in their tweet. Oh yes, 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.920 but today I think we should lay some groundwork. In 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.000 the tweet that Lily posted, they asked what the funk 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.800 is going on with men? Now, Lily's done a YouTube video. Yeah, 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.000 great question. And Lily's done a YouTube video on this, 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.360 which I'll link in the show notes, titled Sigma Mails 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.280 into the manno Sphere. It's quite good. Um, Today, though, 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.760 I want to go back further, UM, and I want 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.959 to talk about the groundwork that created what serious researchers 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.240 really do call the manosphere. This is a term that 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:42.120 like people have published peer reviewed studies about this thing, Um, 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.400 and the mano sphere is, in short, the chunk of 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:52.079 the Internet dominated by an increasingly toxic galaxy of male supremacists. Right. Um, 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.440 So we're gonna talk about where all of this comes 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:58.480 from and how it this like testester testosterone, Ladle jumble 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.720 with idiocy has turned a something that inspired terrorist attacks 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.240 that have killed dozens. We're going to start. Yeah, it's always, 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.839 it always ends everything. How long is it going to 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.760 take two terrorist attacks that killed dozens? You just have 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.920 your knife out, the knife. I know, I know, but 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.000 I let it. I just I want the listeners to 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:19.559 know that I didn't bring it up the first time. 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:25.920 I waited for the second. Beautiful look at this, Look 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:27.640 at this, Look at this knife. Yeah, remever, if you 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.160 want to show us your new toys, you just show 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.520 it to I'm just enjoy holding it. It's made by 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.480 Curtis Holland of Free Hill Blades. You should check him 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.520 out on on the Graham. He's incredible plug. I just 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:40.680 want you to know your phone to that trap loftist. 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.800 He was waiting for you to bring it up. I know, 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.400 I know, Jamie. A little spoiler for where we're going. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:54.720 I was peacocking. Are you the whole episode? Yeah? I 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.200 was peacocking, and I started the episode by negging you 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.480 about dog fighting. That's true, are you? First of all? 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:05.040 And I'm just trapped. I'm so beaten down that I 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.680 didn't even fucking notice he's pulled a knife on me 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:13.040 yet again. There, Okay, Well there's like little inscriptions on it. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.920 It's cool, Robert, I'm gonna start texting you Kathy cartoons. 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.280 I feel like they would improve your day to day 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:24.240 Jamie Loftus, Are you ready to take a journey into 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:29.880 the manno sphere? Yes, Sigma take me. Well, we're going 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:32.200 to start as we nearly always start when we're talking 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.920 about horrible things that lead to mass death with capitalism, 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.880 because before the man sphere, before the Internet, we had 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:43.240 the Men's Liberation Movement. Now based on are they being 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:47.720 liberated from? Well, this was actually a pretty reasonable social movement. 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.200 It started in the nineteen sixties with the Vietnam War 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.040 and the growing counterculture, and it existed within that space 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.200 as a critique of traditional male gender roles in the 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.800 capitalist United States. The first generation raised by World War 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:01.440 Two veterans had grown up in a world where men 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.280 were expected to be breadwinners and women were expected to 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.480 be domestic servants, and the men of the Men's Liberation 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.840 Movement saw this as toxic, right, um, the idea that 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:15.240 you know, like, obviously men had a lot more and 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.040 still do have a lot more privilege, but it's still 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.559 bad for men to just be expected your only value 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:23.280 is to produce money. Right. Um, like that's that's a 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.360 toxic thing. And that's kind of what the men's Liberation 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.080 movement was reacting to. And in fact, it was tied 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.240 with second wave feminism, and both of them were like 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.199 pretty pretty tightly interwoven, and and and and not. This 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.680 is where comes in, Robert. This is literally where Kathy 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.200 comes in. This is where Kathy starts. Kathy, it starts 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.880 in ninety six. She's firmly in this place. She's winning 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.199 her own bread and um, and it's a problem. Yeah. 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:49.719 And so in the in the sixties you get kind 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:52.160 of the birth of the men's liberation movement. UM and 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.960 researchers Becky Coston and Michael Kimmel explained, quote, this is 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:57.520 and this is talking about kind of how these guys 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.320 thought if men were imprisoned in the home, then were 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.760 exiled from the home, turned into soulless, robotic workers, and 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.880 harnessed to a masculine mystique so that their only capacity 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.600 for nurturing was through their wallets. So yeah, this is 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.520 like pretty reasonable, you know. Yeah, And that's like a 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.520 lose lose too. It's classic lose lose where a woman 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.160 is not allowed to validate themselves through work if they choose, 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.560 and then then the man is the additional pressure. It 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.000 is everyone loses. And it's also like, you know, women 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.880 aren't validated is being capable of having a professional life, 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.440 but also men are aren't aren't validated as being capable 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.400 of nurturing. You know, that's that's that's a toxic thing 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:37.000 as well, and perhaps actively encouraged to not do it. Yeah, 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:41.120 phatively encouraged to drink highballs and talk about the war 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:43.959 and dark voices until they pass out drunk on the couch. 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:49.080 That's yeah, that's base level daddy culture. Daddy could baby. 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.640 So yeah again, men's liberation movement started out in a 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.160 pretty reasonable place, so justified reaction to the inhuman realities 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.520 of what a lot of people would call capitalism's golden 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.400 age in the Midnight Seen seventies. Starting around nineteen seventy three, 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.600 that golden age came to an end. Inflation, sword employment plummeted, 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.920 gas right prices skyrocketed upwards, and political corruption grew more 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.480 in your face than it had ever been before. President 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.839 Jimmy Carter coming to power hot off the heels of 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.520 the guy who Pardon Nixon described the national mood as 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:22.400 a sort of general malaise um. Now, during this period, 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.440 a new movement, the men's rights movement, branched off from 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.520 men's liberation, and this was not as positive a thing. 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.280 I'm gonna quote from a study titled from Pickup Artists 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.600 two in Cells, a data driven sketch of the man 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:38.480 of sphere I was. It's a good it's a really 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.440 good study quote. This new branch saw the problem men 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.120 experienced as stemming more from feminism and women empowerment than 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.720 oppressive gender roles. So called men's rights activists would focus 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:53.440 on men's issues such as health problems, military conscription, divorce, 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:57.000 and custody laws. In this new ideology, women's liberation would 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.120 be inflicting on men the worst of both worlds, and 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:04.160 the movement's empathetic tone turned to anger. So starts out 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.320 as like, hey, this whole system is fucked up. It's 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.480 unfair to men and women, and we support women in 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.280 their quest for liberation, and we also have to liberate ourselves. 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.160 And then capitalism stops working in the same way, and 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.320 there's less money and there's less opportunity, and suddenly a 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.400 lot of these guys are like oh funk. The problem 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.760 is that women are getting rights. Right. Okay, so this 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.800 is this is like the mid seventies energy. Yeah, seventy 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.200 three is kind of when this released, this process starts. 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:35.240 But obviously, okay, so we're just gonna pivot to blaming 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.400 women for the failures of capitalism. Hell yeah, I like 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.640 when we do that. Oh Jamie, let me tell you. 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:42.640 When I realized I could just blame women for the 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:46.800 failures of capitalism, suddenly I didn't have to blame capitalism, 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.400 and that's way easier. Suddenly you don't need to blame 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.520 you know. It's it's something that you feel like, it's 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.520 just a direct person to yell at their Capitalism isn't 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.880 a person, and people hate that, and it's it's you know, 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.840 it's incredibly power full and incredibly difficult to fight, whereas 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.960 a bunch of women who don't have the same employment 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.160 opportunities as men way easier to fight than capitalism. Let 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:13.520 me tell literally, men are choosing to fight Kathy. I'm sorry. 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:19.480 People are like, instead of fighting capitalism, let's oppress cathy. 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:23.800 Specific oppression oppressed Cathy. That's right. So many of the 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.120 figures at the forefront of the men's rights movements were 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.360 once people who had been associated with second wave feminism 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.600 were in Ferrell, for example, let a men's group within 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.360 the National Organization for Women. He then in nineteen wrote 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:38.120 The Myth of Male Power. Now. This book was a 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.080 foundational text for men's rights activists, and it claimed that men, 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:45.560 not women, were systematically disadvantaged in modern society. Farrell's work 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:49.800 is generally seen as like simplistic and insensitive and inaccurate 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.040 and bullshit, and also the foundational text of what we 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:56.120 now know as the men's rights movement. So right, it's 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:00.920 just like that need to be more oppressed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.920 And it definitely like Ferrell starts on the side of 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:10.320 women's liberation and then makes a real, real jagged shift. Um, 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.320 which is cool. It's cool how that works for him. 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:18.240 So it's not coincidental obviously that economic collapse and contraction 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:20.640 uh led to an awful lot of men going from 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.560 a fairly healthy attitude like men should be liberated and 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.280 so should women and instead like, now there's less money. 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.720 Funck women their way. I don't have money. Um. And 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.920 this basic true trend would hold true for you know, forever, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.120 really uh, And obviously I do want to We're not 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:37.080 talking about a majority of men when we talk about 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.120 the men's rights movement, when we talk about any of 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:43.480 this stuff, we're talking about a very vocal subculture. Um, 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.120 And I don't want to like erase the men who 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.240 continue to be like, Hey, there's problems that men face 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.800 in society, and they're tied to the problems that women face, 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:52.960 and we have to like like, I'm not trying to 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.640 it's not like this under capitalism. I will say that 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.840 Cathy's boyfriend, Irving, does sound like he would believe in 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.240 a sort of bullshit, though, Oh fucking Irving. Let me 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.200 tell you, I've never met Kathy. I don't know. I listen, 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.200 wait till I start texting you Kathy comics NonStop. You'll 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:13.160 hate Irving in two minutes. Oh, Jamie, I am so 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:17.120 excited to be texted Kathy comics nonsense. That will be. 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.040 That will be much better than your panic text about 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.080 where your dog is in the night because he's gone 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.680 off to fight again. I just it would just be 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:27.920 nice to get a text of where he's fighting. That's 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.840 all I'm saying. Well, he I haven't seen him at 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.280 any of the dog fights. I don't attend. Um, no, 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:38.880 he's he's j V so. So history of Barbara arin 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.119 Reich actually puts the first break with traditional fifties ideas 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.600 of manhood much earlier than this period, in the mid 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.640 nineteen fifties, rather than being tied any social movement or counterculture. 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.520 Um and she like. So there's obviously there's this men 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:54.080 men's liberation, which turns into the men's rights movement. But 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:58.199 the first big kind of social break from the traditional 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.080 expectations of manhood that has kind of evolved during the 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.440 early nineteen hundreds started in the early nineteen fifties, and 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:12.080 it's credited with to Hugh Hefner. Um, oh, we're talking, 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.200 we're talking, Hugh. Then this is this is what Barbara 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.160 aarin Reich argues. So he had gotten married at age 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.080 twenty two, which was honestly kind of old to get 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.399 married in his name, but I think too young to 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.840 get married would be my opinion. Uh, and you know, 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.080 but he was in in the same situation of millions 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.400 of other men in his generation, and he regretted getting married. 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:32.639 He felt like he had gotten he'd gotten hitched too early, 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:36.159 and he hadn't had enough sexual experience and that's perfectly valid, 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.680 right to feel like you got pressured into marrying too early. Um. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.200 Where he goes with this is less valid. In nineteen 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.159 fifty three, he creates Playboy magazine, which was aimed at 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.280 men like him who sought a life more liberating than 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.720 the expected job to wife, to kids, to grave pipeline. Uh. 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.120 Now again, obviously he had a few points here. Uh. 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:57.280 Nineteen fifties culture was toxic in every single way. Um. 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.919 But he didn't just like say like, hey, men should have, 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.760 you know, consider other options for their lifestyles. He took 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.000 the tack that is becoming increasingly familiar of blaming women 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.160 for the unreasonable constraints society placed on men. The first 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:14.200 issue of Playboy included an article warning men of gold 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.480 digging women. Barbara Aharin Reich writes it was a no 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.959 hold barred attack on the whole concept of alimony and 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.920 secondarily on money hungry women in general, entitled Miss gold 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:29.040 Digger of nineteen fifty three. The beginning Playboy loved women 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.760 large breasted, long legged young women anyway, and hated wives. 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:38.960 So yeah, I've I've read that article before. Um yeah, 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:43.200 I uh. Hugh Hefner is such a frustrating figure where 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:47.480 it's like, like many of the men you're describing, they 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.680 start from a valid point of frustration, which is the 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.639 expectations society is putting on them is unfair. But then 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:59.000 they're like, but here, here's my solution, uh, naked underage 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.320 girls that you have to pay for uh, and a 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:06.800 bunch of uh stories about how men are underserved by 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.600 society between them. And so it just becomes such a 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:14.640 dissonant message immediately, and spoiler alert, it stays that way 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.280 and it's not a wildly different process than you can 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.160 you can honestly see with a lot of anti Semitism, 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.680 where people start from like, oh hey, finances fucked up. 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:27.760 Oh hey, capitalism is actually like really bad and unfair 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:31.520 and unequal, and it's like okay, okay, okay, and it's 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:37.000 because of the Jews. It's like, okay, now you see you, 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:41.640 you just targeted you. Just a complete misfire right away. Yeah. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:44.960 The first issue of Playboy is a fucking weird ass 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:49.280 document that just shows shows you so much because it's 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.720 like even in the mission statement, there's parts of the 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:54.920 Playboy mission statement that you're like, I see where they're 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.320 going with this. And then by the end they've already 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:02.160 deviated into hell. And then I have to call people, 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.360 you know, seventy years later to ask what everyone's titty sizes. 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.480 It's not fair, it's not but I I got answers, 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.520 and that's what that's what's important. Earned my eight dollars 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:18.720 an hour. Jimmy loftus flame famed playboys men. Um So, 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.639 Hefner provided young men of the post war era with 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.680 kind of the first popular alternative view of masculinity, one 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:28.360 that was independent of a wife or a family and focused, 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:32.199 unfortunately around the acquisition of objects. Um So, it's not 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:35.000 just like you're independent of you know, you're a complete 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.520 person without having a family being a breadwinner, which is 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:39.280 a good way to view things. It's like you're an 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.159 independent if you if you don't have a family and 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:45.120 a wife, you can have like nice furniture and nice 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.880 liquor and stereo systems and stuff. Um One of Hefner's 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:51.840 kind of big major innovation. I don't know, innovation is 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:53.120 a weird way to say, but one of the major 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:55.199 things he introduced to society was the concept of the 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.040 bachelor pad, which is, you know, like a nice house 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:00.520 that's just your place as a dude to bring women too, 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.159 and filled with things that you have acquired for money. 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:06.800 In his book, it came from something awful, which is wonderful. 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:10.879 David Baron notes, quote this Hefnarian vision of manhood was 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.040 still tied to economic achievement, like the bread Winter vision 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.320 of manhood. It encouraged conformity and merely changed the system 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:21.360