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Speaker 1: Welcome to Behind the Bastards, the podcast where Jamie Loftus

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Speaker 1: has just admitted to dog fighting. Jamie, how do you

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Speaker 1: respond to these allegations that you made that you have

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Speaker 1: dogs that fight? I said I have, I have no

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Speaker 1: dog in this I didn't say that I have. If

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Speaker 1: you don't have a dog in this fight, that implies

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Speaker 1: you have a dog in another fight, which implies you're

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Speaker 1: a dog fighter. Jamie, We're not going to let these

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Speaker 1: allegations go away. This isn't This isn't being a dog

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Speaker 1: fighter and having a dog that fights and has you know,

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Speaker 1: a revenue stream independent of me that involves, you know,

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Speaker 1: fighting on the weekends. How would you describe your direct

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Speaker 1: relationship to the dog fighting industry? Jamie? How it? Okay? Um?

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Speaker 1: I guess. Let me be perfectly clear. My dog fights, right,

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Speaker 1: My dog fights, but it's because it's because he's aggressive

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Speaker 1: and he's got some strong opinions. I don't personally benefit

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Speaker 1: from it, and in fact, it is tanking my career actively,

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Speaker 1: my dog's fighting career. Well. Controversial stances from Jamie Loftus,

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Speaker 1: r E. Dog Fighting. I am Robert Evans and this

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Speaker 1: is Behind the Bastards podcast where we talk about the

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Speaker 1: worst people in all of history. Jamie, how are you

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Speaker 1: doing in this lovely februah jan Wary March day? Uh?

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Speaker 1: You know, uh, not great. But but I've started reading

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Speaker 1: Kathy cartoons. Oh that is a horrible sign for your

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Speaker 1: mental health. I really think that that is, that is

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Speaker 1: a symbol that I've hit some sort of all but

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Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. And here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm laughing. You're laughing. I'm I I see ac I laugh.

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Speaker 1: That's where I'm at. I think you and I might

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Speaker 1: be on might be on a similar uh similar mental

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Speaker 1: track right now. Um, because I have recently gotten back

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Speaker 1: into reading the comics that I read as a kid.

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Speaker 1: I've been going through the old Calvin and As some

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Speaker 1: of the old Foxtrots. Yeah, the classics, the classics where

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Speaker 1: no one ever actually had a problem, they just thought

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Speaker 1: they did. And I think I might get back into

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Speaker 1: Bloom County I've been missing. I've been missing my weird

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Speaker 1: eighties comedy, a lot of making fun of Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: in the old Bloom Counties. It's true, there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a I've been God, my week really did evolve into

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Speaker 1: Lolita ended and I'm like, I can do whatever I want,

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Speaker 1: And it turns out whatever I want is reading Kathy

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Speaker 1: comics for three straight days. You know, you know she

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Speaker 1: there's a whole week in Kathy comics where she just

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Speaker 1: went to see the Big Chill. Every day in the comics,

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Speaker 1: she just kept going. She loved the Big Chill, and

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Speaker 1: she campaigned for Ducocus. That's what I learned about Kathy

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Speaker 1: this week. That is all heartbreaking. Well, Ja, your tragic

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Speaker 1: journey with Kathy is actually a perfect leading for our

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Speaker 1: subject today. Um as I, as I stated, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be doing some book episodes and you and

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Speaker 1: I are going to get into a real terrible book. Um,

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Speaker 1: but not today. Today, we're going to talk about the

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Speaker 1: Manno Sphere. Oh No, that's exactly what Cathy was afraid of.

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Speaker 1: Rub That's exactly what Cathy was warning us about. The

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Speaker 1: light one out of Jamie's eyes. When Robert, this is

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Speaker 1: going to shatter and pump myself up with Kethy for

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Speaker 1: three days and you just take what I've got I've earned. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what is what is the Manno Sphere? It sounds like

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Speaker 1: a fucking Spike TV. Get to that. I'm gonna explain

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Speaker 1: why we're talking about this today before we get into

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Speaker 1: the book that you and I are going to talk

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Speaker 1: about later this week. So, on January one, a non

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Speaker 1: binary TRANSFIM Twitter personality named Lily Simpson posted a tweet

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Speaker 1: that went so viral and inspired a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: articles and think pieces. It's got something like a quarter

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Speaker 1: of a million shares. The tweet consisted of four images,

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Speaker 1: the cover of a book titled The Sigma Mail What

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Speaker 1: Women Really Want Now. The cover of this book features

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Speaker 1: a man in a suit with a medieval sword as

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Speaker 1: the cover art. Now, next to that image were several

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Speaker 1: screen grabs listing the five male archetypes, which, according to

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Speaker 1: those screen grab or according to those image macros or whatever,

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Speaker 1: range from alpha males to omega males. And I think

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Speaker 1: pretty much everyone I know, I know, Jamie, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: hate this episode so much. Wow wow wow, Okay, this

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Speaker 1: episode is revenged for the things that I imagine you

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Speaker 1: would have said if I'd told you that Nestor mock

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Speaker 1: Know's nickname really meant daddy, which I guess I should. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I uh, I do not forgive you. And if I

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Speaker 1: feel that there's information I'm just going to insert Daddy's

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Speaker 1: where they don't exist as a cautionary measure. I did

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Speaker 1: what I had to do to save Christmas. I understand

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Speaker 1: that it's in the rest of my life. So Verry, Cindy, lou,

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Speaker 1: who have you. Most people are familiar with the concept

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Speaker 1: of alpha males, right, the idea that some men are

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Speaker 1: inherent their a small chadra of men that are inherently dominant,

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Speaker 1: and that they're they're they're the most attractive to women

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Speaker 1: and all that stuff. Now, so that was you know,

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Speaker 1: there were in this this tweet that Lily Simpson Simpson

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Speaker 1: put out, there was like an image of that Sigma

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Speaker 1: mail book. There was an image of like the list

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Speaker 1: of all the different kinds of males, uh, and then

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Speaker 1: there was an image of a pyramid chart labeling what

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Speaker 1: it called the socio sexual hierarchy. Now, pyramid has alpha

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Speaker 1: at the top and omega at the bottom, and it

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Speaker 1: goes through all the different kinds of males. And then

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Speaker 1: outside the pyramid next to Alpha is the Sigma mail

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Speaker 1: with the explaining text the Sigma and Alpha are equal.

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Speaker 1: The Sigma sits outside the hierarchy by his own choice.

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Speaker 1: He's the the Sigma is the money, yea. And of

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Speaker 1: course on the other side of this pyramid is a

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Speaker 1: crude clip art of a wolf, because is it really

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Speaker 1: a pyramid if there is not an American wolf sitting

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Speaker 1: right next to him? Gotta be a wolf. It's a

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Speaker 1: shame has been done to the wolf. We'll be talking

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Speaker 1: about that today too. So the last, yeah, the last

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Speaker 1: image in Lily's tweet is the best a screen grab

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Speaker 1: of a YouTube video titled how to become Sigma Mail

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Speaker 1: the rarest male Type. This is like, uh, this sounds

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Speaker 1: like a great act of public service by Lily. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Lily's Lily's wonderful and this was wonderful tweet that they

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Speaker 1: put together. Um. Now that the video that that screen

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Speaker 1: grab is from was host on the Alpha Show channel

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Speaker 1: and it has a hundred and thirty seven thousand views

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Speaker 1: to date. In the portion of the paused video we

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Speaker 1: see there's an image of Kiano Reeves as John Wick

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Speaker 1: next to the text rarest male type, which is not

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Speaker 1: strictly untrue to say that's a that's an unfair appropriation

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Speaker 1: of Keanu Reeves. This wholesome image it is, and I

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Speaker 1: think part of why Keanu Reeves is so magnetic is

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Speaker 1: that he has never spent a single section of his

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Speaker 1: life wondering what hierarchy of male he counts, as he

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Speaker 1: simply exists. I used to sell Kiana Reeves his Sudoku

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Speaker 1: puzzles when here. It's my favorite fact. I had another

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Speaker 1: friend who works who worked at the Barnes and Noble

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Speaker 1: in Santa Monica, who also sold books to Kiana Reeves.

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Speaker 1: He's a reader. He's a gentle, lovely man. I also

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Speaker 1: interviewed once the guy who does He's a guy who

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Speaker 1: does like gun training for um Hollywood films, like training

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Speaker 1: movie like action movie stars and how to use guns

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Speaker 1: on screen and stuff. And he's worked with Kiana a

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Speaker 1: lot um and every everybody loves Kiana Reeves. Everybody who

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Speaker 1: works with Kenna Reeves loves them. I've never heard a

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Speaker 1: bad thing about Kianu Man. I hate that k for evil.

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Speaker 1: He is the rarest male team is the rarest male type.

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Speaker 1: And I have a feeling that I had that has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with I haven't seen the John Wick movies.

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Speaker 1: Are they talking about John Wicks? They're talking about John Wick,

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Speaker 1: of course, Yeah, they're talking about John Wick as the

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Speaker 1: Sigma male who stands outside the male hierarchy. So what

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Speaker 1: the fund is going on with a Sigma mail? Nonsense.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that. The unreadable book that

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Speaker 1: we're going to read on Thursday is about the Sigma mail.

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Speaker 1: It's the book that Lily featured in their tweet. Oh yes,

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Speaker 1: but today I think we should lay some groundwork. In

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Speaker 1: the tweet that Lily posted, they asked what the funk

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Speaker 1: is going on with men? Now, Lily's done a YouTube video. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: great question. And Lily's done a YouTube video on this,

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Speaker 1: which I'll link in the show notes, titled Sigma Mails

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Speaker 1: into the manno Sphere. It's quite good. Um, Today, though,

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Speaker 1: I want to go back further, UM, and I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about the groundwork that created what serious researchers

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Speaker 1: really do call the manosphere. This is a term that

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Speaker 1: like people have published peer reviewed studies about this thing, Um,

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Speaker 1: and the mano sphere is, in short, the chunk of

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Speaker 1: the Internet dominated by an increasingly toxic galaxy of male supremacists. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk about where all of this comes

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Speaker 1: from and how it this like testester testosterone, Ladle jumble

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Speaker 1: with idiocy has turned a something that inspired terrorist attacks

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Speaker 1: that have killed dozens. We're going to start. Yeah, it's always,

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Speaker 1: it always ends everything. How long is it going to

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Speaker 1: take two terrorist attacks that killed dozens? You just have

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Speaker 1: your knife out, the knife. I know, I know, but

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Speaker 1: I let it. I just I want the listeners to

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Speaker 1: know that I didn't bring it up the first time.

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Speaker 1: I waited for the second. Beautiful look at this, Look

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Speaker 1: at this, Look at this knife. Yeah, remever, if you

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Speaker 1: want to show us your new toys, you just show

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Speaker 1: it to I'm just enjoy holding it. It's made by

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Speaker 1: Curtis Holland of Free Hill Blades. You should check him

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Speaker 1: out on on the Graham. He's incredible plug. I just

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Speaker 1: want you to know your phone to that trap loftist.

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Speaker 1: He was waiting for you to bring it up. I know,

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Speaker 1: I know, Jamie. A little spoiler for where we're going.

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Speaker 1: I was peacocking. Are you the whole episode? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: was peacocking, and I started the episode by negging you

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Speaker 1: about dog fighting. That's true, are you? First of all?

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Speaker 1: And I'm just trapped. I'm so beaten down that I

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Speaker 1: didn't even fucking notice he's pulled a knife on me

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Speaker 1: yet again. There, Okay, Well there's like little inscriptions on it.

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Speaker 1: It's cool, Robert, I'm gonna start texting you Kathy cartoons.

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Speaker 1: I feel like they would improve your day to day

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Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus, Are you ready to take a journey into

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Speaker 1: the manno sphere? Yes, Sigma take me. Well, we're going

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Speaker 1: to start as we nearly always start when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about horrible things that lead to mass death with capitalism,

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Speaker 1: because before the man sphere, before the Internet, we had

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Speaker 1: the Men's Liberation Movement. Now based on are they being

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Speaker 1: liberated from? Well, this was actually a pretty reasonable social movement.

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Speaker 1: It started in the nineteen sixties with the Vietnam War

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Speaker 1: and the growing counterculture, and it existed within that space

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Speaker 1: as a critique of traditional male gender roles in the

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Speaker 1: capitalist United States. The first generation raised by World War

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Speaker 1: Two veterans had grown up in a world where men

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Speaker 1: were expected to be breadwinners and women were expected to

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Speaker 1: be domestic servants, and the men of the Men's Liberation

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Speaker 1: Movement saw this as toxic, right, um, the idea that

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Speaker 1: you know, like, obviously men had a lot more and

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Speaker 1: still do have a lot more privilege, but it's still

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Speaker 1: bad for men to just be expected your only value

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Speaker 1: is to produce money. Right. Um, like that's that's a

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Speaker 1: toxic thing. And that's kind of what the men's Liberation

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Speaker 1: movement was reacting to. And in fact, it was tied

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Speaker 1: with second wave feminism, and both of them were like

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty tightly interwoven, and and and and not. This

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Speaker 1: is where comes in, Robert. This is literally where Kathy

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Speaker 1: comes in. This is where Kathy starts. Kathy, it starts

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Speaker 1: in ninety six. She's firmly in this place. She's winning

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Speaker 1: her own bread and um, and it's a problem. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so in the in the sixties you get kind

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Speaker 1: of the birth of the men's liberation movement. UM and

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Speaker 1: researchers Becky Coston and Michael Kimmel explained, quote, this is

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Speaker 1: and this is talking about kind of how these guys

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Speaker 1: thought if men were imprisoned in the home, then were

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Speaker 1: exiled from the home, turned into soulless, robotic workers, and

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Speaker 1: harnessed to a masculine mystique so that their only capacity

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Speaker 1: for nurturing was through their wallets. So yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: like pretty reasonable, you know. Yeah, And that's like a

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Speaker 1: lose lose too. It's classic lose lose where a woman

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Speaker 1: is not allowed to validate themselves through work if they choose,

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Speaker 1: and then then the man is the additional pressure. It

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Speaker 1: is everyone loses. And it's also like, you know, women

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Speaker 1: aren't validated is being capable of having a professional life,

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Speaker 1: but also men are aren't aren't validated as being capable

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Speaker 1: of nurturing. You know, that's that's that's a toxic thing

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Speaker 1: as well, and perhaps actively encouraged to not do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: phatively encouraged to drink highballs and talk about the war

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Speaker 1: and dark voices until they pass out drunk on the couch.

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Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's base level daddy culture. Daddy could baby.

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Speaker 1: So yeah again, men's liberation movement started out in a

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Speaker 1: pretty reasonable place, so justified reaction to the inhuman realities

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Speaker 1: of what a lot of people would call capitalism's golden

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Speaker 1: age in the Midnight Seen seventies. Starting around nineteen seventy three,

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Speaker 1: that golden age came to an end. Inflation, sword employment plummeted,

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Speaker 1: gas right prices skyrocketed upwards, and political corruption grew more

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Speaker 1: in your face than it had ever been before. President

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter coming to power hot off the heels of

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Speaker 1: the guy who Pardon Nixon described the national mood as

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Speaker 1: a sort of general malaise um. Now, during this period,

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Speaker 1: a new movement, the men's rights movement, branched off from

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Speaker 1: men's liberation, and this was not as positive a thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from a study titled from Pickup Artists

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Speaker 1: two in Cells, a data driven sketch of the man

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Speaker 1: of sphere I was. It's a good it's a really

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Speaker 1: good study quote. This new branch saw the problem men

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Speaker 1: experienced as stemming more from feminism and women empowerment than

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Speaker 1: oppressive gender roles. So called men's rights activists would focus

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Speaker 1: on men's issues such as health problems, military conscription, divorce,

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Speaker 1: and custody laws. In this new ideology, women's liberation would

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Speaker 1: be inflicting on men the worst of both worlds, and

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Speaker 1: the movement's empathetic tone turned to anger. So starts out

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Speaker 1: as like, hey, this whole system is fucked up. It's

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Speaker 1: unfair to men and women, and we support women in

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Speaker 1: their quest for liberation, and we also have to liberate ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And then capitalism stops working in the same way, and

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Speaker 1: there's less money and there's less opportunity, and suddenly a

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Speaker 1: lot of these guys are like oh funk. The problem

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Speaker 1: is that women are getting rights. Right. Okay, so this

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Speaker 1: is this is like the mid seventies energy. Yeah, seventy

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Speaker 1: three is kind of when this released, this process starts.

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Speaker 1: But obviously, okay, so we're just gonna pivot to blaming

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Speaker 1: women for the failures of capitalism. Hell yeah, I like

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Speaker 1: when we do that. Oh Jamie, let me tell you.

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Speaker 1: When I realized I could just blame women for the

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Speaker 1: failures of capitalism, suddenly I didn't have to blame capitalism,

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Speaker 1: and that's way easier. Suddenly you don't need to blame

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Speaker 1: you know. It's it's something that you feel like, it's

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Speaker 1: just a direct person to yell at their Capitalism isn't

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Speaker 1: a person, and people hate that, and it's it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's incredibly power full and incredibly difficult to fight, whereas

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Speaker 1: a bunch of women who don't have the same employment

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Speaker 1: opportunities as men way easier to fight than capitalism. Let

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Speaker 1: me tell literally, men are choosing to fight Kathy. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: People are like, instead of fighting capitalism, let's oppress cathy.

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Speaker 1: Specific oppression oppressed Cathy. That's right. So many of the

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Speaker 1: figures at the forefront of the men's rights movements were

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Speaker 1: once people who had been associated with second wave feminism

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Speaker 1: were in Ferrell, for example, let a men's group within

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Speaker 1: the National Organization for Women. He then in nineteen wrote

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Speaker 1: The Myth of Male Power. Now. This book was a

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Speaker 1: foundational text for men's rights activists, and it claimed that men,

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Speaker 1: not women, were systematically disadvantaged in modern society. Farrell's work

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Speaker 1: is generally seen as like simplistic and insensitive and inaccurate

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Speaker 1: and bullshit, and also the foundational text of what we

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Speaker 1: now know as the men's rights movement. So right, it's

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Speaker 1: just like that need to be more oppressed. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it definitely like Ferrell starts on the side of

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Speaker 1: women's liberation and then makes a real, real jagged shift. Um,

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Speaker 1: which is cool. It's cool how that works for him.

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Speaker 1: So it's not coincidental obviously that economic collapse and contraction

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Speaker 1: uh led to an awful lot of men going from

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Speaker 1: a fairly healthy attitude like men should be liberated and

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Speaker 1: so should women and instead like, now there's less money.

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Speaker 1: Funck women their way. I don't have money. Um. And

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Speaker 1: this basic true trend would hold true for you know, forever,

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Speaker 1: really uh, And obviously I do want to We're not

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Speaker 1: talking about a majority of men when we talk about

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Speaker 1: the men's rights movement, when we talk about any of

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Speaker 1: this stuff, we're talking about a very vocal subculture. Um,

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to like erase the men who

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Speaker 1: continue to be like, Hey, there's problems that men face

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Speaker 1: in society, and they're tied to the problems that women face,

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Speaker 1: and we have to like like, I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: it's not like this under capitalism. I will say that

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Speaker 1: Cathy's boyfriend, Irving, does sound like he would believe in

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Speaker 1: a sort of bullshit, though, Oh fucking Irving. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you, I've never met Kathy. I don't know. I listen,

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Speaker 1: wait till I start texting you Kathy comics NonStop. You'll

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Speaker 1: hate Irving in two minutes. Oh, Jamie, I am so

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Speaker 1: excited to be texted Kathy comics nonsense. That will be.

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Speaker 1: That will be much better than your panic text about

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Speaker 1: where your dog is in the night because he's gone

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Speaker 1: off to fight again. I just it would just be

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Speaker 1: nice to get a text of where he's fighting. That's

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Speaker 1: all I'm saying. Well, he I haven't seen him at

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Speaker 1: any of the dog fights. I don't attend. Um, no,

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Speaker 1: he's he's j V so. So history of Barbara arin

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Speaker 1: Reich actually puts the first break with traditional fifties ideas

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Speaker 1: of manhood much earlier than this period, in the mid

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, rather than being tied any social movement or counterculture.

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Speaker 1: Um and she like. So there's obviously there's this men

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Speaker 1: men's liberation, which turns into the men's rights movement. But

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Speaker 1: the first big kind of social break from the traditional

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Speaker 1: expectations of manhood that has kind of evolved during the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds started in the early nineteen fifties, and

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Speaker 1: it's credited with to Hugh Hefner. Um, oh, we're talking,

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Speaker 1: we're talking, Hugh. Then this is this is what Barbara

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Speaker 1: aarin Reich argues. So he had gotten married at age

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Speaker 1: twenty two, which was honestly kind of old to get

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Speaker 1: married in his name, but I think too young to

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Speaker 1: get married would be my opinion. Uh, and you know,

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Speaker 1: but he was in in the same situation of millions

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Speaker 1: of other men in his generation, and he regretted getting married.

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Speaker 1: He felt like he had gotten he'd gotten hitched too early,

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Speaker 1: and he hadn't had enough sexual experience and that's perfectly valid,

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Speaker 1: right to feel like you got pressured into marrying too early. Um.

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Speaker 1: Where he goes with this is less valid. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty three, he creates Playboy magazine, which was aimed at

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Speaker 1: men like him who sought a life more liberating than

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Speaker 1: the expected job to wife, to kids, to grave pipeline. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Now again, obviously he had a few points here. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen fifties culture was toxic in every single way. Um.

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Speaker 1: But he didn't just like say like, hey, men should have,

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Speaker 1: you know, consider other options for their lifestyles. He took

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Speaker 1: the tack that is becoming increasingly familiar of blaming women

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Speaker 1: for the unreasonable constraints society placed on men. The first

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Speaker 1: issue of Playboy included an article warning men of gold

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Speaker 1: digging women. Barbara Aharin Reich writes it was a no

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Speaker 1: hold barred attack on the whole concept of alimony and

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Speaker 1: secondarily on money hungry women in general, entitled Miss gold

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Speaker 1: Digger of nineteen fifty three. The beginning Playboy loved women

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Speaker 1: large breasted, long legged young women anyway, and hated wives.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I've I've read that article before. Um yeah,

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Speaker 1: I uh. Hugh Hefner is such a frustrating figure where

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Speaker 1: it's like, like many of the men you're describing, they

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Speaker 1: start from a valid point of frustration, which is the

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Speaker 1: expectations society is putting on them is unfair. But then

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Speaker 1: they're like, but here, here's my solution, uh, naked underage

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Speaker 1: girls that you have to pay for uh, and a

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Speaker 1: bunch of uh stories about how men are underserved by

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Speaker 1: society between them. And so it just becomes such a

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Speaker 1: dissonant message immediately, and spoiler alert, it stays that way

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Speaker 1: and it's not a wildly different process than you can

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Speaker 1: you can honestly see with a lot of anti Semitism,

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Speaker 1: where people start from like, oh hey, finances fucked up.

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Speaker 1: Oh hey, capitalism is actually like really bad and unfair

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Speaker 1: and unequal, and it's like okay, okay, okay, and it's

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Speaker 1: because of the Jews. It's like, okay, now you see you,

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Speaker 1: you just targeted you. Just a complete misfire right away. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The first issue of Playboy is a fucking weird ass

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Speaker 1: document that just shows shows you so much because it's

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Speaker 1: like even in the mission statement, there's parts of the

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Speaker 1: Playboy mission statement that you're like, I see where they're

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Speaker 1: going with this. And then by the end they've already

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Speaker 1: deviated into hell. And then I have to call people,

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Speaker 1: you know, seventy years later to ask what everyone's titty sizes.

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Speaker 1: It's not fair, it's not but I I got answers,

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Speaker 1: and that's what that's what's important. Earned my eight dollars

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Speaker 1: an hour. Jimmy loftus flame famed playboys men. Um So,

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Speaker 1: Hefner provided young men of the post war era with

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Speaker 1: kind of the first popular alternative view of masculinity, one

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Speaker 1: that was independent of a wife or a family and focused,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately around the acquisition of objects. Um So, it's not

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Speaker 1: just like you're independent of you know, you're a complete

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Speaker 1: person without having a family being a breadwinner, which is

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Speaker 1: a good way to view things. It's like you're an

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Speaker 1: independent if you if you don't have a family and

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Speaker 1: a wife, you can have like nice furniture and nice

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Speaker 1: liquor and stereo systems and stuff. Um One of Hefner's

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Speaker 1: kind of big major innovation. I don't know, innovation is

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Speaker 1: a weird way to say, but one of the major

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Speaker 1: things he introduced to society was the concept of the

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Speaker 1: bachelor pad, which is, you know, like a nice house

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Speaker 1: that's just your place as a dude to bring women too,

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Speaker 1: and filled with things that you have acquired for money.

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Speaker 1: In his book, it came from something awful, which is wonderful.

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Speaker 1: David Baron notes, quote this Hefnarian vision of manhood was

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Speaker 1: still tied to economic achievement, like the bread Winter vision

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Speaker 1: of manhood. It encouraged conformity and merely changed the system

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Speaker 1: of rewards. So you have the men's Liberation movement, which

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Speaker 1: is very anti or at least critical of capitalism. You

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Speaker 1: have Hefner's vision of kind of new masculinity, which is

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Speaker 1: fundamentally dovetailing into capitalism casually anti women. Yeah, it's your

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Speaker 1: whatever you're expressing. You're expressing your masculinity through active participation

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Speaker 1: in capitalism. So it's like, well, yeah, we're lost, and

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Speaker 1: I feel like they're similar. You know, it's frustrating because

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Speaker 1: again it's like you could easily draw a similar line

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Speaker 1: to two women as well of like how there's such

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Speaker 1: a pressure to participate in capitalism, look a certain way,

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Speaker 1: have a certain thing, do all this stuff that is

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Speaker 1: part of my I don't know like that. Yeah, of

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Speaker 1: my myriad issues with second way feminism, a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is just like, let us participate in capitalism undisturbed,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, well, are we really fighting here? What's

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Speaker 1: going on? And I think you could also you can

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Speaker 1: see some kind of broadly similar in their structure things

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Speaker 1: happening within kind of trans exclusionary radical feminism too, right, absolutely, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: which I have not done enough research on to want

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Speaker 1: to get into more here, but I definitely see some

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Speaker 1: similarities on what I do know. So by the late

422
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, you have this distinct men's rights ideology that's

423
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: starting to form and has settled into a well developed

424
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: pattern of blaming women for the constraints that men face

425
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 1: under American capitalism. A large chunk of the growing movement

426
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: had been inspired by the objectification of not just women

427
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 1: but life itself, saying the only reasonable path for them

428
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: is a series of conquests, both financial and sexual. This

429
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 1: would all feed into the culture of Reagan era agreed

430
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: and corruption in the nineteen eighties. Now, alongside this period,

431
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: a lot of the things were happening, of course, but

432
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: one of them was an explosion in cartoons, movies, and

433
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: popular fiction aimed at children and set in fantastic worlds.

434
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: The media of the nineteen eighties and nineties in particular,

435
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: is still dominant today and some of the most influential

436
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: pieces of media that were created in the decade or

437
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: so before two thousand one. Um, we're like aimed at

438
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: children and also aimed at like selling kids things, and

439
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: it's it's it's your transformers, your blah blah blah, Yeah,

440
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: Michael Bay properties. And I think the properties why the

441
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: kind of nostalgia culture that we're mired in today is

442
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: so big, is that, like the fifteen years or so

443
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: of media that that that we're talking about right now

444
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 1: is what came right before September eleven, and everything has

445
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: just gotten worse since September eleven pretty consistently. So it's

446
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: this like it's not only people's childhood, but it it's

447
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff like harkens back to a

448
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: time when, for example, the average person had some level

449
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: of hope that things could get better for them economically,

450
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: you know. Um, So the people who had their childhoods

451
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties and nineties in particular would grow

452
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: up to face a tougher and less hopeful world than

453
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: their parents. The boomers would gone were the dreams of

454
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: even modest financial security careers became gigs. The future seemed

455
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: to erode from underneath many people. Some of them chose

456
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,959
Speaker 1: to handle this by retreating back into the warm worlds

457
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 1: of fantasy that had undergirded their youth. Now. This phenomenon

458
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: was first recognized and named in Japan in two distinct

459
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: but related social phenomenons. The hikiko mori, or turning inward,

460
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: is a term used to describe young adults who reacted

461
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: to the difficulty of adult life and financial stagnation by

462
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: pulling away from society and isolating themselves in their homes

463
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: or in their parents homes. Now. The other phenomenon that

464
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 1: japan like Japanese sociologists or whatever kind of started to

465
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: name around this period seventies eight really like the eighties,

466
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: um eighties and nineties, were called um otaku. Now, David

467
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: Dale Baron writes, quote two factors had created the otaku.

468
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: The first was the same expansion of leisure marketing children

469
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: that had occurred in the United States in the early eighties.

470
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: Japanese homes filled with VCRs and TVs. Previous generations had

471
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: faced the austerity and deprivation of war, but post war

472
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: consumers found themselves with disposable income for an ever expanding

473
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: market of recreation and entertainment products. As in the United States,

474
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: fantasy worlds designed to enthrall children and convince them to

475
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: acquire a set of plastic toys and tapes flooded the market.

476
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: In Japan, it began with a giant robot craze. Many

477
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: children learned to gratify their existence through self centered consumption

478
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: of commercialized media. As they grew older, their worldview and

479
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: habits grew with them. The second factor was unique to Japan,

480
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: though eventually similar dynamics would spread to the United States.

481
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: Japanese children of the eighties were called the bean sprout

482
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: generation because they grew quickly and tall and post war

483
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 1: prosperity like bean sprouts, but were strangely substanceless. As the

484
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: American model of the post war corporate state was imported

485
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: to Japan, Japanese kids fell into the machine that the

486
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: counterculture had protested in nineteen six before they were flattened

487
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: out into machine parts, reduced to facts and figures, ranked

488
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: by computerized tests, and then assigned a place in the

489
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 1: hierarchy according to their usefulness, represented by the degrees they

490
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: received This way of operating was not all that different

491
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: from the preceding fascist system, in which individuals subsumed themselves

492
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: into the greater collective hierarchy of the state. It also

493
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: dovetailed with the Japanese belief that hard work, difficult experiences,

494
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: and sometimes even suffering, often administered by an authority figure,

495
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: were good for the soul, and so patents pushed students

496
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: to succeed in ways that were considered extreme to Americans

497
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: in the eighties, though eventually as competition increased, such practices

498
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: would be imported to the United States. Hey, Robert, do

499
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: you know what else is good for the soul? No

500
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: one else is getting imported into the United States. Sophie

501
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: products and services that support this podcast. I see it

502
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: also good? Are they also good for the soul? Uh? No? Um,

503
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: we we do not sell anything that's good for the soul.

504
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: I believe the soul is a cancer upon the human

505
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: race and must be eliminated. Death to the soul is

506
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: the behind the Bastard's motto and the motto of all

507
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: of our sponsors. I thought it was U funk around

508
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,719
Speaker 1: and find trout. But okay, so I think we I

509
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: think we both agreed that our our corporate motto was

510
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: death to the human soul. I like it. It's catchy.

511
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: A lot of people are going to get on board.

512
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: M hmm, products Uh, we're back, We're back, We're back there.

513
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: It's so weird. The um, the o tak, the phrase

514
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: O taking has only become familiar to me in the

515
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: last several months because it comes up a lot with

516
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: Elita stuff. Yeah, and I think it's it's it's it's

517
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: an important subject to study. And a lot of people say,

518
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: you can't generalize it too much to the US, but

519
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of what's happening here is

520
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: it is, especially what's happened within like the al right,

521
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: the Four Chance Folks is very similar. And I don't

522
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: I think you have to. I think Japan was just

523
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: kind of a few years ahead of the trend um.

524
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: And it's all you know, all of this, everything we're

525
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: talking about today, all this toxicity is a reaction to capitalism, um.

526
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: And it's a reaction to capitalism that gives people something

527
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: to either do to numb the pain of capitalism or

528
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: something to blame rather than acknowledge the flaws of capitalism,

529
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: which is one of the most brilliant aspects of capitalism

530
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: as a sentence. I read a fucking essay a couple

531
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: of years ago where a day I think it was

532
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: a data researcher and mathematician, somebody w knew more math

533
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: than me was was making the argument that global capital

534
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 1: is functionally an artificial intelligence because it it acts and

535
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,239
Speaker 1: defends itself in ways that implies some sort of some

536
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: sort of gestalt intelligence and act acting within the system

537
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: of capital and watching the way in which ctic systems

538
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: of capitalism and its flaws are deflected because of how

539
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: people are able to find other groups to blame, other things,

540
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: to rage at um. It's there. There's a lot of

541
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 1: I think back to that essay a lot when I

542
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: watch I don't know all of this ship um anyway

543
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: that that's neither here nor there. We'll talk about galaxy brains.

544
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: I want to know more. Yeah, I'll try to find

545
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: the essay again. We'll talk about one of these days, Jamie.

546
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: So a lot of what happened to the Outaka obviously

547
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: sounds familiar to what we've seen four Chan and Reddit

548
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: due to large chunks of a whole generation. One major

549
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: difference would be that to the best of my knowledge,

550
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: most analyzes of otaku culture tend to focus on isolation

551
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: and not, for example, the violent rage that these people

552
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: exercise upon the world as a result of their isolation.

553
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not saying that being in otaka was the

554
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: same as being like into four chan or an Internet

555
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: nazi or whatever, but similar social pressures led to the

556
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: creation of all of these these these classifications of people

557
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: or whatever you wanna call it. Interest. This is all

558
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: like relatively new info to me. Yeah, yeah, it's stuff

559
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: I've been like thinking about in a disorganized fashion for years.

560
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: Um And in the book it came from something awful

561
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: kind of helped me put some of this into a

562
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: little bit more order. But like my my research on

563
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,239
Speaker 1: a chan and stuff, which is like what got me

564
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: famous in the first place, is was was kind of

565
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: proceeding from this. It's it's definitely I grew up on

566
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: the Internet. I'll talk about that more later. It's it's

567
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: been it's been weird to watch this happen. So obviously

568
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: the US was a few years behind Japan and this phenomenon,

569
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: but again, the same factors were at work in this

570
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: part of the world. The first warning signs that something

571
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: was terribly wrong, actually started terribly wrong, and was going

572
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: to lead to like really violent anti women, a terrorist movement. Right,

573
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: the first kind of warning signs that the in cell

574
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: movement was coming actually started in Canada. Um, so we're

575
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: gonna talk about Mark leapon. Do you know Mark Leppin?

576
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: Mark weapon it? You should not? And have you heard

577
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: of the Ecole Polytechnic attack? Yes, I have heard of that. Yeah,

578
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: that he's the guy who did it. So. Mark Leppin

579
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: was born in nineteen sixty four to an Algerian father

580
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: and a Canadian mother. His dad was abusive to his

581
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: mother and towards women in general, and he bounced out

582
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: of the picture when Mark was young. Mark actually changed

583
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: his name to Mark Leppin out of hatred for his father.

584
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: As a child, Mark was intelligent, but withdrawn. He had

585
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: difficulties making friends or even connecting with family members. His

586
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: mom was a single parent and did not have a

587
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: lot of time for the family. She was working all

588
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: of the time. And this is also something that that

589
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: Mark grew up very angry about. Uh. He had a

590
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: younger sister who mocked him relentlessly for his acne, and

591
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: he repeatedly fantasized about her violent death. Mark hobby yep

592
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: um Marx hobbies as a boy included shooting pigeons with

593
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: an air rifle and reading about Adolf Hitler, who he

594
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: grew to admire. It's very we need to talk about

595
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: Kevin all it always come back to Hitler. It's the

596
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: same thing. This is never emphasized. It's not emphasized when

597
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: people talk about a cold polytechnic. It's not emphasized with

598
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: the count Columbine kids that they were like super fucking

599
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: into Hitler. You know, it's a it's a pretty big

600
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: mistake or like big detail to repeatedly gloss over. I agree, Yeah,

601
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: I just all of the all of the ship I

602
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: had to hear in elementary school after Columbine about how

603
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: like it was the result of bullying. It was like, no,

604
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: they were fucking Nazis, but okay, they continued like pretty

605
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: consistently well into the two thousand tens. Yeah, that whole,

606
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: that whole be empathized with the with the school shooter.

607
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah. No. Actually, what needs to be done

608
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: as young men need to be called on violent and

609
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: anti social and particularly anti women behavior because there's a

610
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: lot of conversations that could be had about gun control.

611
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: But you know what if you stopped if you if

612
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: you took guns away from men with a history of

613
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: domestic violence or anti women violence, you would take guns

614
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: away from about half of mass shooters because because like

615
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: half of them have histories of violence towards women, including

616
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: the guy who shot up the health clinic recently had

617
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: had an to arrest for domestic violence. Um keeps happening.

618
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: Seems like it's the number one predictor of whether or

619
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: not somebody will do violence in public is if they

620
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: hit women. Maybe people should do something about that. Some

621
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: of them just our podcasts, some of them just start podcasting.

622
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: It's great Ted Cruiz is proposing that we take guns

623
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: away from people who have been investigated for domestic terrorism,

624
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: which is like number one, how do you define an

625
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: investigation that's not like you're talking about taking away someone's

626
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: constitutional right because they've been investigated and not convicted of something.

627
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: And it's a great way for Ted Cruz to suggest

628
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: something that doesn't involve taking guns away from domestic abusers.

629
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: So it also just sounds like an interesting way to

630
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: deflect from the people who vote for him. Yeah, so sorry,

631
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: we're getting off topic, so we're talking about Mark Leapin. Uh.

632
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty one, when Mark was seventeen, he attempted

633
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 1: to join the Canadian Armed Forces. Mark would later write

634
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: that they determined he was anti social and refused to

635
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: accept him. The Canadian military would later say that he

636
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 1: was interviewed, assessed, and found to be unsuitable. In nineteen

637
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: eight two, his family moved and Leapin started a two

638
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: year pre university course in engineering. He get a job

639
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: as a custodian at the hospital where his mom worked.

640
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: He was quiet and withdrawn, at one point falling madly

641
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: in love with a co worker, but never working up

642
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 1: the courage to talk to her. He got his own

643
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 1: apartment and applied for admission at the Cole Polytechnic, which

644
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: had a prestigious engineering program. It's like an engineering school.

645
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: He was accepted provided he complete two courses, and he

646
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: didn't take those courses. He was rejected twice in all

647
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: from the school. Mark's acquaintances noted that through the nineteen

648
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: eighties he began to express a repeated and heated dislike

649
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: for feminists. He was enraged that women were allowed to

650
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: be cops in particular, and felt that they should be

651
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: forced to stay at home caring for their families his

652
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 1: and stated that he desperately wanted a girlfriend, but seemed

653
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: to be unable to actually talk to women. When he

654
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: did interact with women, he tended to boss them around

655
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: in an attempt to show them how smart he was. Well,

656
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: that's a great way for them to not point out

657
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: his acne got some notes. Mark um Mark was fired

658
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: from the hospital. Yeah, he was fired from the hospital

659
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: where he worked for being angry and unreliable. He initially

660
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: planned to shoot up his former workplace in revenge, but

661
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: after he was turned down by a coal polytechnic a

662
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 1: second time in nineteen eighty nine, he decided to focus

663
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: his rage on the college, and particularly it's feminists, because

664
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: even though they had given him clear instructions about what

665
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 1: he needed to do to get accepted and he'd failed

666
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: to do those things, he blamed the fact that he

667
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: hadn't gotten into school on feminists because women were taking

668
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: up all the engineering slots that rightfully have gone to

669
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: him if it weren't those women. Yeah, yeah, I know,

670
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: this argument not a thing that's ever happened again. Yeah.

671
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: On December six, nineteen eighty nine, he walked into the

672
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: Montreal Engineering School's campus with a semi automatic rifle and

673
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: a hunting knife. From the Guardian quote, Nathalie Provost was

674
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: twenty three when Leppin shot her. Four bullets from his

675
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: legally obtained rifle entered her body and changed her life forever.

676
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: Leppin had entered her classroom and sent the fifty men

677
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: and nine women to opposite sides of the room. Then

678
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: he ordered the men to leave. He told us that

679
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: we were there because he was against feminists. She told

680
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: the Guardian. I answered back, we are not feminists. We

681
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: are just engineering students. And if you want to study

682
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: at Polytechnic, you just have to apply and you'll be welcomed.

683
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: And then he shot. Six of the nine women in

684
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: that room were killed. Jesus fucking Christ. Yeah, it's pretty bad, Jamie,

685
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: it's pretty bad. By the time Lepin's rampage was over,

686
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: he had killed fourteen women and injured fourteen other people,

687
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: including four men. He then killed himself. For many years,

688
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: this shooting has been kind of just written off as

689
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: a mass shooting. Right uh in Canada instituted some gun

690
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: control legislation as a result of this, but it did

691
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: not stop the anti women terrorists. And I think the

692
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: most recent one was Alex Menasci and like two three

693
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: years ago killed ten people in a van ramming where

694
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: he was aiming at women. Um. But we're we'll keep

695
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: talking about this subject. Um. So yeah, it was. It

696
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: was kind of taken as like this is this was

697
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: an inexplicably deranged man with a gun who was choosing

698
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: to like, uh, kill strangers and kill kill women. Um,

699
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: but it was it was seen as just kind of

700
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: like a mass shooting. The reality, as is made clear

701
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: by Leppin's suicide note, is that the Coal Polytechnic attack

702
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: was the very first in cell terrorist attack. And I'm

703
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: gonna quote from his manifesto. Now, the feminists have always

704
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: enraged me. They wanted to keep the advantage of the

705
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: advantages of women e g. Cheaper insurance, extended maternity, to

706
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: leave preceded by a preventative leave, etcetera, while seizing for

707
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: themselves those of men. Thus, it is an obvious truth

708
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: that if the Olympic Games were removed the men women distinction,

709
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: there would be women only in the graceful events. So

710
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: the feminists are not fighting to remove that barrier. They

711
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: are so opportunistic that they do not neglect to profit

712
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: from the knowledge accumulated by men through the ages. They

713
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: always try to misrepresent them every time they can. Thus,

714
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: the other day I heard they were honoring the Canadian

715
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: men and women who fought at the front line during

716
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: the World Wars. How can you explain that since women

717
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: were not authorized to go to the front line? Will

718
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: we hear of Caesar's female legion legions and female galley slaves, who,

719
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: of course took up fifty of the ranks of history

720
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: though they never existed a real casus belly. So see

721
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: what he's saying there. I don't, I mean, I do,

722
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: but I but uh yeah, it's all very frustrating. First

723
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: of all, that's male figure skater erasure, and the other

724
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 1: section is um and I god, I think, just yeah,

725
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: how quickly it escalates to women participate just strictly participating

726
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: in uh in an activity they were once you know,

727
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: more limited and barred from with this like grand scheme

728
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: to displace men is just so. I mean, whenever you

729
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: hear you hear it all the time, but it never

730
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: sounds less aided. G And I think there's a few

731
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: things that are worth noting there. One of them is

732
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: that the initial lines by him we wrote where he

733
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: was like, women are trying to They they only want

734
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: to They only want to change the things that don't

735
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: benefit them about society. They don't want to give up

736
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 1: all their advantages. And that's what like the men's rights

737
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: activists of the seventies were arguing, Right, that's what Warren Ferrell,

738
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: who wrote The Myth of Male Power was arguing. So

739
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: he's he's not coming at this from out of nowhere, right,

740
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: These same social movements exist in Canada, and Mark is

741
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: influenced by them, and he's influenced by debates about feminism

742
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,479
Speaker 1: in Canada, um and and obviously in the United States

743
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: because Canada's you know, basically are our our little brother

744
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: women in their damn maternity leaves and their damn maternity leave.

745
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 1: Why do they get maternity leave and not me? Which

746
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: actually is a great question. Men should get maternity leave, right,

747
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: it's a valid thing. But like that's the answer, isn't

748
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: kill women over it? Like yeah, it's like it's again

749
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: this thing of like, yes, there's a very valid critique

750
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: of American style capitalism, in particular because other capitalist countries

751
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: are not as irrational about this as we are, where

752
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 1: it's like yeah, husbands or fathers should possibly general should

753
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: be yes, like yes, why why can't you just me?

754
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: It's so, maybe maybe whenever a couple has a kid,

755
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 1: regardless of what their sex or gender is, they should

756
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: get six months off of work because as a society

757
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: we should note that it's important to spend that time

758
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: with your child, and more valuable to do that than

759
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: continue to create value under capitalism, and it would lead

760
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: to healthier children and a healthier society, and thus is

761
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: worth it for us to all pay a little bit

762
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: in order to make that possible. Maybe I think you're

763
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: taking too far. I think you're taking things too far.

764
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: That's enough of that. Maybe a healthy culture would make

765
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: that call leaving the zoom, but not America. Not America,

766
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: we will never do the healthy thing. So Mark's note

767
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: makes it clear that he started entertaining thoughts of serious

768
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: violence against women about seven years before the shooting. So

769
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: if you're looking at this guy's path to radicalization, it's

770
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: about a seven year journey, which is slow. I mean,

771
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: it can happen in fucking weeks thanks to the Internet.

772
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: There's a lot to say about how much the Internet

773
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: has sped this up. You look at some of the

774
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: Q and on people who have been engaged in violence,

775
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: and it's like they got in to Que six weeks

776
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: before they you know, kidnapped their kids and drove across

777
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: the country or raided the capital. You know. Um. But

778
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: in the pre internet days, obviously there were not massive

779
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: online communities of male rights advocates or anti feminist advocates,

780
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: and Mark was mostly left alone to stuin his hatred. Uh.

781
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: He was also relatively unable to spread his hateful philosophy

782
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: to an accepting community. But still, the public reaction to

783
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: a coal polytechnic made it clear that there existed significant

784
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: support for his actions. Even then. A psychiatrist at the

785
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: Hotel de Hospital in Quebec was quoted in Lapress as

786
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: saying that Leppin was as innocent as his victims and

787
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: himself a victim of an increasingly merciless society. Expand on

788
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: that perhaps this man who shot twenty eight people is

789
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: as much a victim as the twenty eight people he shot.

790
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: But that is such a that, I mean, I'm not

791
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: surprised at all that that was the attitude then, because

792
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: that was the attitude for a long time after that.

793
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: It's the attitude a lot of people have now, Yeah,

794
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: well it's a right wing terrorist. Like are all the

795
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: articles coming out about how a bunch of the capital

796
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: rioters had or insurrections wherever you wanna call him, had

797
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: a had like recent financial difficulties, right, even though if

798
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: you actually look at most of their financial problems came

799
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,879
Speaker 1: from not paying taxes on the businesses that they ran

800
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: because their right wing ship heads. But whatever, very frustrating. No,

801
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: let's blame I blame I blame anything else, any anything

802
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: but number one, the individuals and also the ideologies that

803
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: are heavily supported by large segments of our society who

804
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: make huge amounts of money boarding that cheering on that

805
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: ship anyway. Um, So that all takes us into the

806
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, right, this happens nineteen nine, very early days

807
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: of what would become the Internet. We get into the

808
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and increasing numbers of young men are increasingly online.

809
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,439
Speaker 1: And I was one of these young men. I spent

810
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: most of the late I mean I was a child

811
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: in the nineties, but I spent most of the late

812
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 1: nineties and the early aughts, as I would I think,

813
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: I can honestly say one of the very first terminally

814
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: online young men UM. Basically all of my socializing, UM,

815
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: all of my free time that was not spent you know,

816
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 1: playing Warhammer or whatever D and D was spent in

817
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: various online communities like early forums and message boards. You were,

818
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: you were on the boards. I was on tons of boards.

819
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: All about the boards on the boards. I absolutely will

820
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: not talk about most of them, but one of them

821
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: was something Awful UM, which started in nineteen nine. There

822
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: were some that I was in before that, UM, and

823
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 1: I can tell you that in my experience, I didn't

824
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: I don't recall encountering a lot of open violent hatred

825
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: of women and fantasies of violence against them. Obviously, there

826
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: was a tone of misogyny, and most of which I

827
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: did not recognize as misogyny at the time because that

828
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: was the culture that I was raised in. Yeah, I

829
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: didn't run into people fantasizing about murdering women because they

830
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: couldn't get a date right like that thing had not

831
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: was not at least not common yet. UM. What was

832
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: common were stories of sexual frustration and feelings of hopelessness.

833
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: About the idea of finding a girl friend. A common

834
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: meme back then was there are no Girls on the Internet,

835
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: which was largely inspired by a couple of facts. Number one,

836
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: a lot of men pretended to be women online. Obviously

837
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: at the time we said that like a lot of

838
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: creepy guys pretend to be women. UM, I have as

839
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 1: just kind of based on some of the people that

840
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: I've met, particularly some of the trans people that I've met,

841
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: I've become aware more recently that a lot of that

842
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: was like people who would later realize they were trans

843
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: kind of starting to expe toernament with with with with

844
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: that identity. Um. Obviously, at the time, it was just

845
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: like a lot of guys are pretending to be ladies.

846
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: Is kind of how you know, fourteen year old me

847
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: and a bunch of other people on the Internet interpreted it.

848
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: And the other aspect of the whole there are no

849
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: girls on the Internet thing was that there weren't a

850
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: lot of girls on the internet. Um, it was a

851
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: lot of it was like most of the communities I

852
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: was in were made up of a lot of isolated

853
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: young male nerds who played way too many video games, um,

854
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: and kind of had trouble imagining that many women would

855
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: enjoy the same Internet they did. Um and obviously they

856
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: may have been right. They may have been right. It

857
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: was pretty objectifying and misogynistic in a lot of ways.

858
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: So also great great podcast by Bridget Todd. There are

859
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: no great podcast by Bridget There are no girls on

860
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: the Internet. It is weird because it's like I I

861
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 1: remember I didn't spend a lot of time on forums

862
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: as a kid, but I don't remember like what. Well,

863
00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: I was just too you know, too busy, you know,

864
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: like having friends and doing activities. It was just like no,

865
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: but but I didn't spend it. But I do remember

866
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 1: like when when the option online was to like try

867
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 1: to find a forum for something you were interested in.

868
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 1: I remember like going to some and then being immediately

869
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: like scared off by how people were talking there. And

870
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 1: then you either have to assume whatever do the child

871
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 1: online they can assume a false identity and do the

872
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: same thing and like match the energy, or you just

873
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: you're like, well, I guess I can't you know, I

874
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: I guess this this like a series of unfortunate events

875
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: for him is scary and I have to leave. Yeah,

876
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: I guess I will give a little detail about one

877
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: of that, So I the too big one of them

878
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:47,959
Speaker 1: was something awful, which was in a lot of voice

879
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: toxicum and also objectively healthier and more responsibly run than

880
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: any major social media service today, which is saying nothing

881
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: like No, it's they banned Nazis saying yes, I hate that.

882
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: That's like in their defense the Nazis. Um, and it

883
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: cost money to join, right, there was a consequence, yeah, um,

884
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: not that they were comprehensive or perfect at doing that,

885
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 1: but it was a thing they did better than Twitter did. Um. Yes,

886
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: that is true. So the other And I think this

887
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: is why, because I think a lot about why I

888
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: didn't kind of wind up in getting like pulled into

889
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: more like hard right stuff, because I was definitely had

890
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: there was a point at which I could have been.

891
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 1: You know, I grew up very conservative. I still love

892
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: guns and knives, um, and you won't stop pulling them

893
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: on it will not stop pulling the knife. I'm surrounded

894
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: by firearms as often as I can be. Um. I

895
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: enjoy a lot of like kind of stereotypically male things

896
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 1: and aesthetics. And I also was a huge isolated nerd

897
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: growing up, So like, yeah, it could have. I think

898
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: there are a number of reasons it didn't. You know,

899
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 1: some of them come down in family. There's a lot

900
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: of strong women in my family, and that was always

901
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: like a thing um I grew up around. But obviously

902
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: that could have gone the other way too, because I

903
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: had a lot of anger at my mom um. Now

904
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: the other thing, you know, I had some I had

905
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: good friends who were not toxic creeps. But I think

906
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:18,399
Speaker 1: a big part of it is that the other set

907
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 1: of online communities that I I spent time in. One

908
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 1: of them was like a Master of Oryan three, which

909
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 1: wound up being a terrible video game, but a forum

910
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: dedicated to that game, And when the game turned out

911
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 1: to suck, a bunch of the friends I had met

912
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: there brought me over to their other weird little online community,

913
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: which was like I think that you would call them

914
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: like like furry dragon fetishists type people now um, But

915
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,399
Speaker 1: it was just sort of like a discussion and role

916
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: playing for them. And there were a lot of women

917
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: on it um and women who would very gently call

918
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: me on ship um and I I, as I've gotten older,

919
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: certain things. Yeah, maybe if I'd never run into that,

920
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: I would have wound up in a lot more toxic

921
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: communities as opposed to these um, pretty mature people in

922
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: their thirties who just had a weird thing for dragons.

923
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: But we're that's tuper lucky, Like that's that's really I

924
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: wish that, you know, like more fourteen year old boys,

925
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: uh in instead of you know, just feeding each other

926
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: garbage all day. Uh just had a nice conversation with

927
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,399
Speaker 1: a with a thoughtful furry. Yeah, I've been. I've also

928
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: been you know, steered towards a more nuanced and thoughtful

929
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: opinion online by by a furry in their thirties. The

930
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: furies I I like, genuinely strongly agree. Yeah that was

931
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: not a joke. Yeah, I I owe I owe I

932
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: I need to cut a check to the furry community

933
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: because I've learned m hm. So as the years went on,

934
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: a sizeable chunk of my generation was raised in forms

935
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: like something awful and later for chan, which which sprang

936
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: out of something awful fully formed like Athena from Zeus's head. Uh.

937
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 1: And you know these communities. The men in these communities

938
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 1: often rarely talk to women or anyone. Yeah, four chan

939
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 1: is is the Athena. The Athena of racism. But yeah,

940
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: we need a new wait, I'll think of a different

941
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: one for that continue. So, uh, there's a lot of Yeah,

942
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,399
Speaker 1: these communities all had a lot of very online young

943
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 1: men who were very easy prey for a new grift

944
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: that burst onto the scene in two thousand and five,

945
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:41,879
Speaker 1: pick up artistry. M M, yeah, I love that we're

946
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: heading into the years of Tucker Max in the game

947
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: and just that medat bullshit on Yeah, And I don't know,

948
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: I think also maybe part of the reason I didn't

949
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 1: get as much into it is that by kind of

950
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: two thousand four or five, the split between four chan

951
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 1: and some thing awful made for something awful a little healthier,

952
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, um, because a lot of people went to

953
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 1: the chance. You know, there was a lot of ugliness

954
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: on something off. I'm not trying to whitewash that either,

955
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 1: but it was definitely a healthier place to be a

956
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: young man than fucking four chune. Um. Yeah. So the

957
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: inciting incident for the kind of infection of pickup artistry

958
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: on these communities of of lonely and increasingly bitter young

959
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: men was Neil Strauss's two thousand five bestseller The Game,

960
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: which is basically the story of a journalist who got

961
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: drawn into the world of pickup artists, who are men

962
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: who treat dating kind of like an engineering problem, right

963
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: if you if you read a lot of pickup artistry stuff,

964
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: they treat it like picking up women is like it's

965
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: an issue of numbers and repetition and learning repeatable tactics

966
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: like and Nolan can't do a math, so she won't

967
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: even notice. She won't even notice. Um yeah, like tactics

968
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: like negging, which is insulting a woman in a way

969
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: that isn't obviously an insult but undermines her confidence and

970
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: makes her want to impress you. Um And. The game

971
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: also introduced the world to peacocking, which would thereafter ruin

972
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: the Fedora for everyone. That's why Robert pulls a knife

973
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,240
Speaker 1: on us four hundred times an episode to this day.

974
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: Neil's legacy felt strongly in the Zoom Yeah, I am Dora.

975
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: What I like the Fedora? Hold on, I'm a cowboy hat.

976
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: Can we rebrand the Fedora? Oh? That's fun? Wow, you

977
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: really are in Texas. I love I love cowboy hats.

978
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: They're great hats. Look, nobody's that's a good hat. I

979
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: found an exceptional two nineteen article in The Guardian on

980
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: pickup artists by Syrian Gail. In it, she writes, I

981
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: went to university two years after the game was published

982
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: and watched its influence spread like a virus through the

983
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: men in my year. I don't think I went on

984
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: a night out in two thousand seven without some drunk

985
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: rugby player trying to nag me. Oh god. Yeah. Now.

986
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: In that article, which I really recommend, searing, Gael quotes

987
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 1: Dr Rachel O'Neill from Warwick University, who writes about masculinity

988
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: and seduction from an academic standpoint. She says, of pickup artistry,

989
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: the basic premise of all seduction teaching and practice is

990
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: that interactions between men and women are subject to certain

991
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,879
Speaker 1: underlying principles that, once understood, can be readily manipulated. This

992
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: is an impoverished view of sex and relationships, and which

993
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: intimacy is less something to be experienced for its own

994
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 1: sake and more something to be achieved for other ends.

995
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: Impoverished view of sex and relationships that hits yeah, very

996
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 1: much so. Now, I think this quote explains pretty well

997
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: why pete pickup artist tactics took off like a rocket

998
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: among extremely extremely online communities made up mostly of gamers. Right,

999
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: all of the guys in these in these very insular

1000
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: online communities played way too many video games. I think

1001
00:54:58,160 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 1: around two thousand five or so, would in the World

1002
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 1: War A Craft was the big one. Well, yeah, I was.

1003
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: I was gonna say. It's like the like gamifying gamifying

1004
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: exactliness is of fucking galaxy brain level grift, like and

1005
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 1: just implying that it whatever that I mean, that funny

1006
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 1: grift is implying that the tools are it's within your reach.

1007
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: You just need to do a B and C and

1008
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 1: you can replicate raw human joy m and it's it's

1009
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: just you know, if you're maybe it's different for kids now,

1010
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: just the way I grew up socializing mostly in video

1011
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: games and forms, not spending a tremendous amount of time

1012
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: um having friendships with women. UM. The act of like

1013
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,439
Speaker 1: being appealing to women of of you know, going out

1014
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: and trying to find someone UM can seem like an

1015
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:51,919
Speaker 1: incomprehensible task. You know. Um, if you're out hanging out

1016
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 1: on like the Chains or something awful, and you're spending

1017
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: all of your free time griefing people on wow, um,

1018
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: you're you're also not going to be spending time in

1019
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: the kind of spaces where congratually gain more and more experience. Right,

1020
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: kind of being appealing to and flirting with other human

1021
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: beings is like a learning process, right, It's a it's

1022
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 1: a thing that you learned how to do. And if

1023
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 1: you're spending all of your time on forums and participating

1024
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: in like raids and stuff, maybe you don't get as

1025
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:22,280
Speaker 1: much experience doing that. I have a question because, Okay,

1026
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: so I feel like I had experiences online in more

1027
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: probably female, heavier forums where there would sometimes be like

1028
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: I would want to have a certain kind of social interaction,

1029
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: but but the forum is so already bogged down, And

1030
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: it sounds kind of like the same thing of like

1031
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: the forum or the media you're consuming is already so

1032
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: bogged down. In telling you that that is going to

1033
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 1: be really hard for you to do that, you're like

1034
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: creating an additional obstacle to having a basic social interaction

1035
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 1: because you're surrounded by people who have tried it and

1036
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 1: say that it's impossible. And so I don't know, I

1037
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: feel like I I created addition in all obstacles where

1038
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: social obstacles already existed because I'm like, well, everyone in

1039
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: this forum seems to reinforce that this is something that

1040
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: is not easy to do, so I may as well

1041
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 1: not even you know, attempt to do it. Does that

1042
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 1: make sense? Yeah, yeah, it's a hard thing to do anyway,

1043
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: kind of learning how to have romantic relationships, you know,

1044
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 1: like that's a that's a difficult process, and it's made

1045
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: harder by a lot of the self reinforcing habits that

1046
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: are pushed in these communities and a lot of the

1047
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: attitudes and ideas right like these just being told like well,

1048
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: it's never gonna happen anyway, Like yeah, yeah, that's that's

1049
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: kind of where this is all leading and you know,

1050
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: to be honest. Yeah, So the reason that pickup artists

1051
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: really appeals to these people is that for this community

1052
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: of like very online frustrated gamers, these pickup artists are

1053
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: basically saying, hey, there's a set of cheat codes for

1054
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: fucking right, Like that's that's that's the gist of this,

1055
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: Like there are these replicable things you can do, like

1056
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: pushing pushing a A B A and it will make

1057
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: women sleep with you. Um. So obviously a lot of

1058
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: young nerdy men got all on board this ship you know. Now.

1059
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: Pickup artistry has existed in some form as an industry

1060
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: for more than half a century, but the advent of

1061
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: the Internet and the introduction to pick up our artistry

1062
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 1: to online communities changed things in dark and terrible ways.

1063
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 1: From Syrian Gael's article quote. With the advent of the Internet,

1064
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: elements of the pickup artist community's ideology hardened into something darker.

1065
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: It paved the way for other masculinized self help formations

1066
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: to emerge, such as Jordan Peterson's twelve Rules for Life.

1067
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: Says Peterson, Canadian academic Publish Yeah published his best selling

1068
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 1: self helped home and two that's an eighteen and as

1069
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: a critic of feminism, it also counteracts with masculinist factions

1070
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: such as the in cell movement and men's rights activists.

1071
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: This globalized network of pickup artists, men's rights activists, and

1072
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: in cells all emerged out of the same primordial sludge.

1073
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: And that's kind of like that's what we're talking about today, right,

1074
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: This sort of like this this again gestalt mass of

1075
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: impulses and frustration and UH, media and UH and anger

1076
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: turned inward that spews a few different communities, but right

1077
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: now you've kind of got pick up artists who had

1078
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: existed for quite a while, um coming into this community

1079
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: of increasingly frustrated and basically all male nerds. And this

1080
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: this winds up kind of laying a lot of the

1081
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: groundwork for gamer gate, in addition to a number of

1082
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: other horrors that would come. I was just a gamer

1083
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: Gate was when I was in college, and what a

1084
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: bad time to be talking to young men at parties.

1085
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: Real bad can can suck? Can suck at that one.

1086
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: I think again about like why I didn't turn out

1087
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: this way. I like, I just was talking about like

1088
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 1: playing too much Wow as a thing. But I honestly

1089
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 1: think the people that I met on Wow, we're another

1090
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: reason why I didn't get pulled into this Because I

1091
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: was I was a huge nerd. I was on a

1092
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: role playing servers. We were like always in character, so pure,

1093
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: and so we've attracted a lot more incredibly nerdy, like

1094
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 1: like really like not just like want to play video

1095
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: games nerdy, but want to escape into a fantasy world.

1096
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 1: And so there were actually a lot of women on

1097
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: the servers, the servant that was on and in the

1098
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: communities that I was with, including like women in like

1099
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: their thirties and forties, who I formed friendships with and

1100
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: who again helped me not turn out that toxic you know. Yeah,

1101
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: the more I think about it, the more I am

1102
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 1: really in debt to a lot of very nice older

1103
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: women on the internet who very patiently explained to things

1104
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: about adulthood to me, Um, that's beautiful, I feel. I

1105
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, it's it's a very I don't know whatever.

1106
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: It's such a crap shoot being online, but you can

1107
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: turn out some some good shit. I don't know. Yeah,

1108
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: it's if if it makes me want to revisit sites

1109
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: where it's like you find even just like one or

1110
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: two people who you're like, oh, that's a normal, more

1111
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: person living healthily like and what a nice thing that

1112
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 1: is to see online. I don't know. I used to

1113
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: be obsessed with this woman from Portland's who took shitty

1114
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: pictures under digital camera, and I was like, this is

1115
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 1: gonna be me. Someday I'm going to have a Sony

1116
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 1: power shot and take pictures of balloons, and like Jamie,

1117
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: I believe you could get a Sony power shot one day.

1118
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 1: I really think I could take a picture of a

1119
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: balloon with a Sony power shot. I'm not quite there,

1120
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: but I'll get there. Someone listening has a Sony power shot,

1121
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: and by god, I think we'll get it to you, Jamie.

1122
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 1: And on that pretas note, it's it's time for it's

1123
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: time for an a break, Robert speaking of Sony power shot,

1124
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 1: capitalism into your wallet. With these ads, we're back and

1125
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: reminiscing about the days when cameras were things that existed

1126
01:01:54,600 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 1: independent of phones. Imagine the dark ages. It's true. So

1127
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 1: all of this stuff we've been talking about today, like

1128
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 1: all of these different kind of social movements which are

1129
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 1: sort of tap dancing around each other in the in

1130
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: the primordial sledge of the Internet, these had all started

1131
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 1: to metastasize into something truly dark. By around two thousand ten,

1132
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 1: the process was early yet, and the men's rights movement

1133
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 1: was still fairly small in cells weren't really a thing,

1134
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: but an early network of misogynist thought leaders were already

1135
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 1: laying the ground for what would become gamer Gate and

1136
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: many of the horrors that would come later. One of

1137
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: these thought leaders was a fellow named Theodore Bial alias

1138
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 1: vox Day. Born in nineteen sixty eight. Bill is the

1139
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: son of former World Net Daily writer and convicted tax

1140
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 1: a fader invader Robert Field. The son wound up even

1141
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: further right than the father, and he was quickly deemed

1142
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 1: too extreme for World net News Daily or World Net Daily,

1143
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: which is like basically a half step shy of outright fascism.

1144
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 1: At this point, Fox reached prominence as prominence as a

1145
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 1: science fiction author and also as a Nazi. Over the years,

1146
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 1: he has praised Utoya shooter Anders Brevick, denied the moon

1147
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: landing and the Holocaust, and written for the anti women

1148
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: website Return of Kings, which was a major vehicle for

1149
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: the prominent pickup artist and now Christian fascist ruche b

1150
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: What a hat trick, right, And we're seeing now, we're

1151
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: seeing like the pickup artist kind of like vox Day

1152
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 1: is a big alt right field figure, right, We're seeing

1153
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 1: the pickup artists and they all right, like they all

1154
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: kind of come together and like rat like because Ruth

1155
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 1: started out as a very traditional pickup artist, writing books

1156
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 1: about fucking women in foreign countries and also admitting in

1157
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 1: those books to raping women on a number of occasions.

1158
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: He sounds like Tucker max He sounds sounds like Tucker

1159
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: max Um, except for I don't know what Tucker Tucker Max.

1160
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: I think just has a family. Now, um ruche has

1161
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 1: now like a hardcore Christian fascist who believes that people

1162
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: should be executed for extramarital sex. So it's he's had

1163
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 1: quite a journey. Holy sh it. Also literally lives in

1164
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 1: his mom's basement. Well that's that's reinforcing a negative stereo

1165
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 1: type about men who live in their mother's basement, having

1166
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 1: wrong with living in your mom's basement. But it's funny

1167
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 1: that he does. Two things can be true. Tucker Max

1168
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 1: is a ghostwriter. Now he no longer writes under his

1169
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 1: own name. He just he Goes wrote He Goes wrote

1170
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 1: Tiffany Hattish's memoir, which is a detail I find very strange,

1171
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 1: but it is true. What a journey, really, I know. Yeah,

1172
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 1: the weirdest sucking thing. That is the weirdest fucking thing. Anyways,

1173
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to forgetting that he exists,

1174
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 1: that he ever existed. Yes, the two first names are scary.

1175
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: Yeah men also Tuckers. Yeah, I'm not convinced we need

1176
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 1: max Is either that, you know. Yeah, I guess I

1177
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:47,120
Speaker 1: would need to be sold on a Max you know what,

1178
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: fill up with? Come on, but they're all technically maxines,

1179
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: so um vox day. Theodore Bill got his start in

1180
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 1: punditry by a checking cominent atheists like Richard Dawkins, and

1181
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: he seems to be one of many fascists who were

1182
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: really radicalized by nine eleven. He spent much of the

1183
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 1: early odds he was against like the war in Iraq

1184
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 1: and Afghanistan, because he was like against you know, for

1185
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:15,200
Speaker 1: the same reason a lot of folks on the right

1186
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 1: where the same reason Trump was. But as kind of

1187
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: those things turned more into wars against Islam, he started

1188
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: really supporting the idea of a war of extermination against Islam.

1189
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 1: So his issues with like Iraq and Afghanistan is that

1190
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 1: we weren't going over there to kill Muslims, you know,

1191
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 1: no war for oil, war to kill Muslims. That's that's

1192
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: Theodore Beale, Um your life this. Jamie Theodore is also

1193
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: a member of MENSA, and Bragg's regularly that his was

1194
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 1: over the genius threshold. Oh wow, wow. I'm honestly surprised

1195
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 1: it took MENSA this long to come into the mix. Well,

1196
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure it came in earlier. This is just the

1197
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 1: first time my research led me to bring one of

1198
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 1: our I'm sure someone shouted that in my face at

1199
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,360
Speaker 1: one point and I just didn't remember. It's my tiny

1200
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: woman's brain, it's your Yeah. Uh, I'm not gonna quote

1201
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:08,520
Speaker 1: that line from Anchorman again anyway. Um. Vox Day, as

1202
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: he has known professionally, intersects with a manno sphere in

1203
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 1: a number of ways, but probably most significantly as a

1204
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 1: major architect of the alpha, beta, and of course sigma hierarchy.

1205
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: He is in fact the inventor of the concept of

1206
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 1: the sigma male, as best as I can determine. Um,

1207
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 1: But before we get into that, I think we should

1208
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,160
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about where the idea of alpha

1209
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: males come from. In the first place we're talking about

1210
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 1: are we going to talk about wolves? We are super

1211
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 1: going to talk about wolves. Never did anything wrong. They're

1212
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 1: incapable of doing anything wrong. They're just wolves. Love them

1213
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: way better than men people because they want one of those.

1214
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: I missed those shirts with the three wolves helling at

1215
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 1: the moon. Yeah, I never had the confidence to where

1216
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 1: one at three see and we made fun of like

1217
01:06:57,400 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: we mocked the furries in the early OTTs. We mocked

1218
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 1: the people who are brave enough to wear a three

1219
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: wolf moon shirt. Tragic when when they were written, like

1220
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 1: the furries, the bravest and best among us, it's it's like,

1221
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:11,880
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it's like the Romans killing Jesus.

1222
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 1: We always kill those who want to teach us a

1223
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:20,640
Speaker 1: better way. It's true, true tragic. In seven, Rudolph Schenkel,

1224
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: and an animal behavioralist, published a paper titled Expressions Studies

1225
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: on Wolves, where he coined the term alpha to describe

1226
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 1: social relationships he observed between captive wolves in Switzerland. Zoe

1227
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 1: Basil Shankl was working to establish what he termed the

1228
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 1: sociology of the wolf, and he identified two primary wolves

1229
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 1: leading the captive pack that he studied. One was a

1230
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: male lead wolf and the other was a head female bitch.

1231
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 1: He wrote, a bitch and a dog. As top animals

1232
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 1: carry through their rank order and as single individuals of

1233
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 1: the society, they form a pair between them. There is

1234
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,919
Speaker 1: no question of status and argument concerning rank, even though

1235
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 1: small fictions of another type of jealousy are not common.

1236
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 1: By incessant control and repression of all types of competition

1237
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: within the same sex, both of these alpha animals defend

1238
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 1: their social position. Now okay, it's interesting that me this

1239
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,600
Speaker 1: forms so much of the basis of like men's rights ideology,

1240
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: when Shanks is saying, first off that like, well, men

1241
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 1: and women are equal in wolf society. There's a top

1242
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 1: man and a top women and there's no issues of

1243
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:28,759
Speaker 1: status between them. They're dominant, you know, there's two alphas.

1244
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: It's this, it's always that ship though it's like that's

1245
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 1: the same thing with like i C stuff, where it's

1246
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,840
Speaker 1: like the foundational document that people are declaring there's supremacy

1247
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,240
Speaker 1: on states in the document that like i Q is

1248
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 1: not fixed and and you're wrong if you try to

1249
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: fix it. But there God, that's so depressing. But it's

1250
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 1: literally in the in the document. Got it, Okay? Yeah,

1251
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 1: Now the concept of the alpha wolf was born as

1252
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: the result of this paper. And now Schinkel was I

1253
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 1: think a good scientist. There's obviously he winds up being

1254
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 1: wrong in a lot of ways, but he's you know,

1255
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 1: it's ninety seven. He's doing he's doing the best he can, uh,

1256
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:09,599
Speaker 1: And he did not make any comparisons to human social

1257
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 1: relationships in his paper. He did, however, repeatedly draw conclusions

1258
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 1: about domestic dogs based on captives wolves. For decades, Schenkel's

1259
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: work was basically the only word most people could find

1260
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 1: on worse on wolf behavior. His findings were backed up

1261
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:28,679
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy when wildlife biologist David Mech published The Wolf,

1262
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,840
Speaker 1: The Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species. Now we

1263
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:35,360
Speaker 1: now know that all of this research was fundamentally flawed.

1264
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 1: Schinkel and Mech were studying and drawing conclusions about wolves

1265
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:42,759
Speaker 1: held in captivity and as you might guess from you know, prisons,

1266
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 1: incarcerating a bunch of animals in a situation wildly different

1267
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:50,160
Speaker 1: from their natural environment. Differently, Yeah, yeah, they do not

1268
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 1: behave the same And and Mec himself is one of

1269
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 1: the primary voices challenging his old research because he and

1270
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:00,880
Speaker 1: other his other colleagues started carrying more research on the

1271
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 1: dynamics of wild wolf packs and obviously learned that they

1272
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: had been wrong. I'm going to quote from a write

1273
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,960
Speaker 1: up on IO nine. The concept of the alpha wolf

1274
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 1: as a top dog ruling a group of similar aged compatriots,

1275
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 1: Mec writes in the nine paper, is particularly misleading. Mech

1276
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 1: notes at earlier papers such as MW. Fox's socio ecological

1277
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 1: implications of individual differences in wolf litters published in Behavior

1278
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one examined the potential of individual cubs

1279
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: to become alpha's, implying that the wolves would someday live

1280
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 1: in packs in which they would become alpha's and others

1281
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 1: would be subordinate pack members. However, mec explains his studies

1282
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,520
Speaker 1: of wild wolves have found that wolves live in families

1283
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:43,000
Speaker 1: to parents along with their younger cubs. Wolves do not

1284
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 1: have an innate sense of rank. They are not born

1285
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 1: leaders or born followers. The alpha's are simply what we

1286
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 1: would call in what we would call in any other

1287
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 1: social group parents. The offspring follow the parents as naturally

1288
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: as they would in any other species. No one has

1289
01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 1: won a role as leader of the pack. The parents

1290
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 1: may assert dominance over the offspring by virtue of being

1291
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:09,400
Speaker 1: the parents. This is so J's It's always like, okay, First,

1292
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:12,720
Speaker 1: the misunderstanding that the hate group has built off of

1293
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 1: is strictly accomplished by not reading the original document, and

1294
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:20,600
Speaker 1: then the original document is proved to have been false anyways,

1295
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 1: But it's like it just doesn't matter, It just doesn't matter.

1296
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter because there's an interesting wolf fact. Though

1297
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:28,760
Speaker 1: I didn't know that it is a need wolf fact

1298
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 1: and and Mect, to his credit, has spent decades railing

1299
01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:34,720
Speaker 1: against his outdated work. He keeps trying to get his

1300
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: publisher to pull his nineteen seventy book from publication, but

1301
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 1: it's very popular because of weirdos who are obsessed with

1302
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 1: the idea of the alpha male, and his publisher refuses

1303
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:48,800
Speaker 1: to stop selling it. What a fucking exhausting problem to have.

1304
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:51,800
Speaker 1: And he's just trying to be the best scientist he can.

1305
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 1: And you know, change man just wanted to strap a

1306
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 1: go pro to a wolf and you and you made

1307
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 1: it fucking weird. You made it about people. Fucking why

1308
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,639
Speaker 1: did you do that? He was just trying to understand wolves.

1309
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:06,720
Speaker 1: He just wanted to go pro on a wolf's head,

1310
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden it has to do with

1311
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 1: why a teenage boy is getting fucked Like Jesus, I

1312
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 1: think we can all agree that science was a mistake.

1313
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 1: I blame I blame I don't blame capitalism. I don't

1314
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 1: blame men's riots, activists. I blame science in the printing press.

1315
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:30,439
Speaker 1: I don't blame Guttenberg. If Petenberg hadn't started fucking around,

1316
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:32,720
Speaker 1: maybe we wouldn't have this problem. Yeah, I'm gonna go

1317
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 1: back to time and beat him to death with a

1318
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 1: giant letter A exactly exactly. You see the end credits

1319
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 1: of the movie, the like a is lying in his

1320
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:46,800
Speaker 1: blood and the old timey detective pulls it away and

1321
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 1: sees that it's it's made of printing on the surface

1322
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:51,599
Speaker 1: of the of the cobble stones, and he's like, my god,

1323
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:57,320
Speaker 1: the printing press happens anyway and anyway, really making progress somebody.

1324
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, this is thank you for involving

1325
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 1: me in the workshop process. Oh yeah, always Jamie so

1326
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 1: uh Mecha has tried to get his book pulled, but

1327
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:11,120
Speaker 1: it keeps being sold to people like vox Day, who,

1328
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,200
Speaker 1: again in the mid oughts, started using it to draw

1329
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 1: conclusions about human social dynamics, hence the idea of the

1330
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:20,760
Speaker 1: alpha male. Obviously, the Mano sphere did not invent the

1331
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:23,040
Speaker 1: concept of the alpha male. That term has been in

1332
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,320
Speaker 1: use for decades, usually as a generic term for loud

1333
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,680
Speaker 1: and socially dominant man. What the Mano sphere did was

1334
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 1: take that basic concept and codify it into something that

1335
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 1: started to resemble a religion. It started with misinterups on

1336
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:39,080
Speaker 1: four Chan and similar spots all lamenting the sex that

1337
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 1: alpha's were supposedly having. And part of the appeal of

1338
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 1: pickup artistry is that it was going to give these

1339
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,720
Speaker 1: betas the tool to attract women and become alpha's themselves,

1340
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 1: right like that's and again, the manosphere two thousand ten

1341
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 1: doesn't really exist, but it's starting to be born. In

1342
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:56,520
Speaker 1: this period. You're starting to get these kind of amorphous

1343
01:13:56,560 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 1: groups of frustrated young men forming ideologies UM and vox

1344
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 1: Day is a big part of that. In two thousand ten,

1345
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:06,720
Speaker 1: he writes a post on his popular blog that went

1346
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:10,240
Speaker 1: beyond the simple alpha beta dichotomy. His work here was

1347
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 1: partly a reaction to the fact that five years into

1348
01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:15,640
Speaker 1: the mainstream of pickup artistry, a lot of men were

1349
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 1: finding that it didn't work. UM And rather than wonder

1350
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:20,800
Speaker 1: if maybe it's because it was toxic bullshit, No, the

1351
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:24,639
Speaker 1: virus must mutate, Yeah, they decided that this was because

1352
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 1: the alpha beta thing is an immutable hierarchy, literally carved

1353
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 1: into the bones of human males. And so pickup artistry

1354
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:34,720
Speaker 1: isn't a con because it teaches men how to you know,

1355
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 1: it's a fundamentally shallow and toxic view of male female

1356
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 1: interactions that most women simply have no desire to be

1357
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 1: a part of. It's wrong because you can't. If you're

1358
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 1: a beta, you're doomed. I uh yeah, it's it couldn't

1359
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 1: be that the approach isn't salting and people don't. Okay, alright,

1360
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: So Jamie, we're we're really starting to reach and it's

1361
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 1: weird because this is like, I don't know, it's we

1362
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 1: were like any like when I was in high school,

1363
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,240
Speaker 1: and it's like you can sort of start to notice

1364
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 1: when this ship starts picking up in like high school

1365
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:15,120
Speaker 1: into college, you know. So I'm gonna quote from Fox

1366
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:17,800
Speaker 1: Days article, this is where the sigma male comes from,

1367
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:20,920
Speaker 1: as best as I can tell, quote, and this is

1368
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 1: him laying out the different types of man alpha. The tall,

1369
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 1: good looking guy who was the center of male and

1370
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 1: female attention. The classic star of the football team who

1371
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 1: was dating the prettiest cheerleader, the successful business executive with

1372
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 1: the beautiful, stylish wife. All the women are attracted to him,

1373
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 1: all the men want to be him, or at least

1374
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 1: his friend. At a social gathering like a party, he's

1375
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:43,320
Speaker 1: usually the loud guy telling self flattering stories to whom

1376
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:46,679
Speaker 1: several attractive women are listening with big interested eyes. Alpha's

1377
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:48,439
Speaker 1: are only interested in women to the extent that they

1378
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:53,360
Speaker 1: exist for the alpha's gratification, physical and psychological. Beta the

1379
01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:56,680
Speaker 1: good looking guys who weren't as uniformly attractive or dominated

1380
01:15:56,880 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 1: dominant as the Alpha, but are nevertheless confident, attractive to men,

1381
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 1: and do well with them at the party. They are

1382
01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 1: the loud guy's friends who showed up with the alcohol

1383
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: and who are flirting with though tier one women and

1384
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,560
Speaker 1: pairing up with the tier two women. Beata's tend to

1385
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 1: a genuinely like women and view them in a somewhat

1386
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 1: optimistic manner, but they don't have total illusions about them either.

1387
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:19,720
Speaker 1: Delta the normal guys they can't attract most the most

1388
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:22,800
Speaker 1: attractive women, usually aim for the second tier women with

1389
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 1: very limited success, and stubbornly resist paying attention to all

1390
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 1: of the third tier women who are reasonably in their league.

1391
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:31,960
Speaker 1: This is ironic because delta's would almost always be happier

1392
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 1: with their closest female equivalents. When a Delta does manage

1393
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:37,920
Speaker 1: to land a second tier woman, he is constantly afraid

1394
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:39,680
Speaker 1: that she will lose interest in him, and so he

1395
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,840
Speaker 1: will not infrequently drive her into the very loss of

1396
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 1: interest he fears by his NonStop dancing attention upon her.

1397
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:48,759
Speaker 1: This is the vast majority of men in a social setting.

1398
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 1: These are the men clustered together in groups, each of

1399
01:16:51,160 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 1: them making the occasional foray towards various gaggles of women

1400
01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 1: before beating a hasty retreat when direct eye contact and

1401
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 1: engaged responses are not forthcoming. Delta tend to put the

1402
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:04,280
Speaker 1: female sex on pedestals and have overly optimistic expectations of them.

1403
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:06,320
Speaker 1: If a man talks about his better half or as

1404
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 1: an inveterate white knight, he's probably a Delta. They like women,

1405
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:13,719
Speaker 1: but find them confusing and are a little afraid of them. Told,

1406
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 1: this whole thing is like organizing women like they're the

1407
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:21,840
Speaker 1: Del Taco Cravings menu. Is scary as fun. Yeah, I

1408
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 1: mean this is, of course, But we talked about in

1409
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:27,360
Speaker 1: the we Work article how I think it should be

1410
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:29,360
Speaker 1: legal to hit people in the brick with in the

1411
01:17:29,439 --> 01:17:31,920
Speaker 1: face with a brick if they express a desire to

1412
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 1: be the world's first trillionaire or president of the world.

1413
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 1: You say either of those things, that's a brick in right,

1414
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 1: That's just anyone should be able to hit you right

1415
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 1: in the face with a brick. If you can't start

1416
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:44,120
Speaker 1: talking about the tears of women that exist, that's a

1417
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 1: brick and you won't do it again there it's God,

1418
01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 1: yeah whatever, whatever women are organized like a drive through menu,

1419
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:56,040
Speaker 1: that's a red flag. And also you have to wonder

1420
01:17:56,160 --> 01:18:01,559
Speaker 1: like where on this uh you know, like hierarchy does

1421
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:04,559
Speaker 1: the person who's sitting in the corner of a party

1422
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 1: making this ship up? Like, what is that sigma? What

1423
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:14,400
Speaker 1: is that? Yeah? Other than begging for a brick in yeah,

1424
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:17,320
Speaker 1: I mean so, you know, Jamie, I think a lot

1425
01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:19,560
Speaker 1: about how we could improve society, and I would like

1426
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:21,920
Speaker 1: it if we would take the resources and a lot

1427
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 1: of the very skilled sort of individual investigators who who

1428
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:28,280
Speaker 1: exist within the FBI and turn them into a new

1429
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:31,960
Speaker 1: organization whose whole goal is to find people saying ship

1430
01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:34,920
Speaker 1: like this, both online and in real life. And you

1431
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:37,639
Speaker 1: have this like network of agents who are just always

1432
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:39,760
Speaker 1: looking for this and when something like this comes up,

1433
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:41,600
Speaker 1: they just walk up and punch you right in the

1434
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:45,800
Speaker 1: fucking face. And that's that. That's what imagine If that's

1435
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:48,519
Speaker 1: what the FBI did. They just sought out men saying

1436
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 1: this ship and just one punch right in the jaw,

1437
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:52,639
Speaker 1: and everyone would know if a guy in a suit

1438
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 1: comes up and sucks you in the job, that dude

1439
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:57,680
Speaker 1: was saying some bullshit, right. We would have to be

1440
01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:00,120
Speaker 1: able to trust. We just need to make a a

1441
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 1: whole group of trustworthy FBI agents to sound. You just

1442
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:06,599
Speaker 1: need to find a bunch of chats, Jamie, a bunch

1443
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: of real chats. Here's the thing. Whenever I see the

1444
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:15,400
Speaker 1: cartoon of Becky, No wait, Becky, it looks exactly like me,

1445
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:19,640
Speaker 1: and I get mad. I'm sorry, Jamie, I'm literally the

1446
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:27,160
Speaker 1: domical ganger of that cartoon. I I know your pain. Um, yeah,

1447
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:29,840
Speaker 1: I know it's it doesn't feel good to look like

1448
01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:33,600
Speaker 1: the cartoon. I'll say that it doesn't, all right, I

1449
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:39,080
Speaker 1: have to finish Fox day. The gammas the outsiders, the

1450
01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: unusual ones, the unattractive, and all too often the bitter,

1451
01:19:41,960 --> 01:19:45,320
Speaker 1: often intelligent, reliably and successful with women, and not uncommonly

1452
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:48,200
Speaker 1: all but invisible to them. The gamma alternates between places

1453
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 1: of women on pedestals and hating the entire sex, mostly

1454
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:53,760
Speaker 1: depending on whether an attractive women happened to notice his

1455
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 1: existence or not that day. These are the guys who

1456
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:59,599
Speaker 1: obsess over individual women for extended periods of time. Gamma

1457
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 1: supply the ranks of stalkers, psycho jealous ex boyfriends, and

1458
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:06,280
Speaker 1: the authors of excruciatingly narcissistic doggerel and the unlikely event

1459
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:08,920
Speaker 1: they are at the party, there either in the corner

1460
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:11,839
Speaker 1: muttering darkly about the behavior of everyone else there, sometimes

1461
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:15,200
Speaker 1: to themselves. Gammas tend to have a worship hate relationship

1462
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:19,360
Speaker 1: with women, which is directly tied to their current situation. Yeah,

1463
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:23,320
Speaker 1: and then there's is a fun way to put that.

1464
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:27,080
Speaker 1: And then of course he names the Sigma males, which

1465
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 1: are our men who are not part of the hierarchy

1466
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:33,080
Speaker 1: because they consciously stand outside it, but they're equal to Alpha's.

1467
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 1: They're the lone wolf, right, That's that's that's that's the

1468
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:40,240
Speaker 1: John Wick. Yeah, John Wick didn't exist yet, but yes,

1469
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:42,760
Speaker 1: that's that's clearly how box Day and I think you

1470
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,200
Speaker 1: get the feeling box Day views themself as it as

1471
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 1: a Sigma male of course. Yeah, and of course Sigma

1472
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:51,400
Speaker 1: males are inherently attractive like to women, but but they

1473
01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:55,639
Speaker 1: don't they don't seek women's approval. Um, because my god,

1474
01:20:56,160 --> 01:21:01,120
Speaker 1: that's so embarrassing. It's incredibly embarrassing. Right, you wrote pyramid

1475
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:05,320
Speaker 1: unless you stand outside it. And of course women are

1476
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:07,479
Speaker 1: not going to see you if you're standing away from

1477
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:11,320
Speaker 1: the pyramid. So I think that makes sense. Wow, how

1478
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:13,840
Speaker 1: embarrassing for him? He wrote that down, he wrote, He

1479
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:16,720
Speaker 1: wrote that down on the whole lass Internet. It's there

1480
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:20,759
Speaker 1: forever now he wrote that down. Wow. Okay. For thousands

1481
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:23,599
Speaker 1: of tragically online young men, here's a failure at pick

1482
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 1: up artist techniques led to rage. First of the system

1483
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:28,560
Speaker 1: they believed tod con them into believing the alphabet a

1484
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:31,800
Speaker 1: hierarchy was not a strict cast system. Some of these

1485
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 1: red pilled men formed an online community named p u

1486
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,360
Speaker 1: a hate dot com. Pick up Artist hate dot com

1487
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:42,400
Speaker 1: was founded to mock an attack pickup artists, which isn't

1488
01:21:42,439 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 1: necessarily an ignoble goal, but the men who made it

1489
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:48,440
Speaker 1: were coming from the perspective of believing that only alpha's

1490
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:51,639
Speaker 1: with a very specific bone structure could possibly attract women.

1491
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:57,479
Speaker 1: And this happens other places online wherein souls gathered. They'll

1492
01:21:57,479 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 1: take pictures, they'll photoshop pictures of themselves into like how

1493
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 1: what would what it would take to make them into

1494
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 1: an alpha? And like you'll get there, Like one of

1495
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:07,840
Speaker 1: the phrases you hear a lot is that, like the

1496
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:10,760
Speaker 1: only difference between you know, an alpha and a and

1497
01:22:10,880 --> 01:22:13,200
Speaker 1: a delta is a couple of millimeters of bone, and

1498
01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:15,479
Speaker 1: like that that that it's so unfair, right that nature

1499
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 1: has played this cruel joke on them, that they will

1500
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:19,479
Speaker 1: never ever ever be able to be with a woman,

1501
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:24,360
Speaker 1: um because their bone structure isn't quite right. And obsessing

1502
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:29,800
Speaker 1: over bone structure is a gateway to so infinity chronology,

1503
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:33,479
Speaker 1: to Nazism. Yes, and it's also like one of the

1504
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:38,040
Speaker 1: things that's most frustrating about it is that like all

1505
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:43,840
Speaker 1: of these like it's not it's not actually that they

1506
01:22:43,920 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 1: don't think they could ever find women. I mean, for

1507
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:47,800
Speaker 1: some of them it is, but for most of them,

1508
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:49,600
Speaker 1: like when you hear what they're saying is that I

1509
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:52,519
Speaker 1: don't have a chance to get with a woman who

1510
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:56,320
Speaker 1: looks like the heavily airbrushed and photoshopped models, and I

1511
01:22:56,439 --> 01:22:59,840
Speaker 1: have a right to that right, which is like acting

1512
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:03,200
Speaker 1: title to something that doesn't even exist in the first place. Yeah,

1513
01:23:03,560 --> 01:23:05,240
Speaker 1: And it's like the Theodore bal stuff is like, well,

1514
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:06,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to Tier three woman, I want to

1515
01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:09,160
Speaker 1: Tier one woman. And like even the Tier three women

1516
01:23:09,240 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 1: don't like me, and like they can all get to

1517
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 1: funk whoever they want, and if I do get a

1518
01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:14,200
Speaker 1: Tier one woman, she's just gonna be waiting until she

1519
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 1: can fun someone else because they can't ever be like

1520
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 1: we need a it's and it's Jordan Peterson intersects this

1521
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:21,760
Speaker 1: ship right when he started talking about like we need

1522
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 1: to find a way to um have the government enforce

1523
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:29,679
Speaker 1: uh monogamy because otherwise you're going to just be creating

1524
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:31,720
Speaker 1: all these violent men because they won't be able to

1525
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:35,240
Speaker 1: get find women to have sex with UM because the

1526
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 1: women it's like this it's it's one of the ways

1527
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,280
Speaker 1: in which Peterson is saying the same ship as the

1528
01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:42,559
Speaker 1: in cells, because he's he's like the in cells are like, well,

1529
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:45,080
Speaker 1: women will always just try to funk all of the

1530
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:47,400
Speaker 1: chad that they can and have no desire. The only

1531
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:50,439
Speaker 1: reason they would suck anyone who isn't an alpha is

1532
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:52,280
Speaker 1: if that person has money, and then they're just going

1533
01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:54,639
Speaker 1: to cheat on him every chance that they get um

1534
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:58,240
Speaker 1: because they're they're animals. And Peterson is a little bit

1535
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 1: more like restrained that, but he's basically like these in

1536
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:04,479
Speaker 1: cell terrorist attacks are coming out of the fact that

1537
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:08,479
Speaker 1: these men because women are so hypergamous right having sex, Like,

1538
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:11,479
Speaker 1: because a small number of very attractive men are having

1539
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:13,800
Speaker 1: sex with all of the women, there's no women for

1540
01:24:13,960 --> 01:24:17,840
Speaker 1: these these unattractive men to have sex with, and that's

1541
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:19,560
Speaker 1: where all these shooters are coming from, and so the

1542
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:23,719
Speaker 1: government needs to enforce monogamy. Like that's Jordan Peterson ship, Yeah,

1543
01:24:23,840 --> 01:24:27,040
Speaker 1: I mean, isn't is isn't Jordan Peterson currently dying of

1544
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:35,840
Speaker 1: eating too much meat like wheat? Like it's funny because

1545
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:37,960
Speaker 1: I look at a lot of these pictures of these

1546
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:40,439
Speaker 1: insults take of themselves, and for every one of them

1547
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:43,639
Speaker 1: is like, I know a ton of guys who look

1548
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:45,880
Speaker 1: like you or who you would even consider less good

1549
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:49,880
Speaker 1: looking than you, who have a lot of sexual relationships

1550
01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:53,559
Speaker 1: that are very fulfilling. You know why, because they're interesting,

1551
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:56,840
Speaker 1: talented people who are nice and who care about other

1552
01:24:56,960 --> 01:24:59,760
Speaker 1: people and listen to them and don't try to game

1553
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:03,679
Speaker 1: of by every relationship. And it turns out that matters

1554
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:08,760
Speaker 1: more than your bone structure, like and all, yeah, it's god,

1555
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:11,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like whatever, It's so demonstrably true that

1556
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:14,600
Speaker 1: it feels like silly to even say out loud. But

1557
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:20,120
Speaker 1: like traditionally attractive men who do this ship no one

1558
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:22,360
Speaker 1: wants to fuck them or like no one wants to

1559
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:25,800
Speaker 1: get to know that that person. It's it's it's a

1560
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 1: behavioral thing. I don't know the the reach people will

1561
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:33,320
Speaker 1: do to that make small behavioral adjustments that are critical

1562
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:36,679
Speaker 1: of their own behavior. Um, they will literally kill people.

1563
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 1: It's wild amazing because like, yeah, you know, just kind

1564
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:44,439
Speaker 1: of from from coming up for a long time and

1565
01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:47,519
Speaker 1: sort of like the poly community. Um, I know a

1566
01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 1: a lot of guys who are are like very charming

1567
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:55,479
Speaker 1: and very good at being romantic. And you know what

1568
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 1: the number one thing they all have in common is

1569
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,240
Speaker 1: is that they're really good cooks and that they're very

1570
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:05,640
Speaker 1: good at providing something simple that is both attractive and pleasurable,

1571
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:07,840
Speaker 1: Like it makes them more pleasant to be around. They

1572
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,439
Speaker 1: make wonderful food, which is also then exhibiting effect that

1573
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:14,799
Speaker 1: they care about the other people that they're curing behavior

1574
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:19,280
Speaker 1: to the original thing we're talking about from the sixties

1575
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 1: of like God, stop worrying about bone structure, shower and

1576
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:27,519
Speaker 1: learn how to cook. It'll take you further. Literally out

1577
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:32,800
Speaker 1: take a shower, like out take a shower. Uh, you

1578
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 1: know it may not get it won't get perfect, but

1579
01:26:36,160 --> 01:26:40,719
Speaker 1: it will get it'll help us. She'll be healthier because

1580
01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:43,680
Speaker 1: you'll learn how to cook. I in my experience, it

1581
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:45,880
Speaker 1: has never hurt to log out and take a shower,

1582
01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:50,200
Speaker 1: no matter who you are. It's amazing because like one

1583
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:54,240
Speaker 1: of the communities that kind of forms in the fifteen

1584
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 1: is the MiG Taws, men going their own way, just like,

1585
01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:01,639
Speaker 1: oh I forgot about. We're not gonna talk about them

1586
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:04,720
Speaker 1: a lot, but like they're men, mostly divorced, men who

1587
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:08,599
Speaker 1: are really angry at women and have decided that sex

1588
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:11,800
Speaker 1: because women are inherently toxic and trying to steal from men,

1589
01:27:12,320 --> 01:27:16,200
Speaker 1: men should separate themselves entirely from women. And that's of

1590
01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:20,800
Speaker 1: them is kind of like the uncle branch, Like, Okay,

1591
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 1: that's what I thought. Um, And they have. I've spent

1592
01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:25,320
Speaker 1: a lot of time in their communities too, and they

1593
01:27:25,360 --> 01:27:27,960
Speaker 1: will share recipes and my god, Jamie, it is always

1594
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:31,280
Speaker 1: the saddest thing on the fucking like often just popping

1595
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:36,600
Speaker 1: a frozen chicken breast into the oven and salting it heartbreaking.

1596
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:43,639
Speaker 1: I cannot cook for ship and that that's wow, amazing,

1597
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:50,840
Speaker 1: it's amazing. Um. So yeah, as we were talking about

1598
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:55,200
Speaker 1: like all of these red pilled men uh former community

1599
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:58,559
Speaker 1: called Pete pick Up Artist hate um because they get

1600
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 1: angry that pick up artistrytechniques don't work for them, and

1601
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:04,400
Speaker 1: in the spring of two thousand thirteen, an angry young

1602
01:28:04,479 --> 01:28:09,639
Speaker 1: man named Elliott Roger found pua hate dot com. Yeah Yep.

1603
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:12,960
Speaker 1: In a manifesto he later wrote, Roger noted that in

1604
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:15,519
Speaker 1: PUA Hate he had found a forum full of men

1605
01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:18,560
Speaker 1: who are starved of sex just like me. What he

1606
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:21,360
Speaker 1: read there confirmed many of the theories I had about

1607
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:25,040
Speaker 1: how wicked and degenerate women really are. I can't not

1608
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:29,200
Speaker 1: go into the Ben Shapiro voice my start, but that's

1609
01:28:29,320 --> 01:28:31,840
Speaker 1: that's like I feel like that's kind of what I

1610
01:28:31,920 --> 01:28:34,200
Speaker 1: was trying to get out earlier of like being surrounded

1611
01:28:34,280 --> 01:28:37,479
Speaker 1: by confirmation bias, Like before you will even try something,

1612
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:39,720
Speaker 1: you're being told by a million other people that it's

1613
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:42,000
Speaker 1: not going to be possible, and don't try, And here's

1614
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 1: something else you should do that's scary instead. Yep. Now Yeah.

1615
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:51,440
Speaker 1: Through PUA Hate, Elliott Roger discovered the Red Pill Constitution,

1616
01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:53,360
Speaker 1: which was written by a group of men who came

1617
01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:56,559
Speaker 1: to be known as in Cells. He deliberately copied from

1618
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:59,280
Speaker 1: them in his manifesto when he wrote, quote, there was

1619
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:02,599
Speaker 1: something mint really wrong with the way women's brains are wired.

1620
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:06,120
Speaker 1: They are incapable of reason or thinking rationally. And they're

1621
01:29:06,120 --> 01:29:08,639
Speaker 1: incapable of that because they don't recognize that Elliott Roger

1622
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:14,120
Speaker 1: is the greatest guy ever. Damn classic us supreme gentleman,

1623
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:18,920
Speaker 1: Elliott Roger. Yeah, women do be not liking Elliott Roger,

1624
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:22,320
Speaker 1: and then that's on us. The reason he thought he

1625
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 1: was the supreme gentleman and women had to be mentally

1626
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:27,479
Speaker 1: ill for not falling in love with him is because

1627
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:30,080
Speaker 1: he had fallen first into all this pick up artistry bullshit, right,

1628
01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:32,400
Speaker 1: He'd done all of the pickup artist techniques, you know,

1629
01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:35,160
Speaker 1: he'd done all of these things that we're supposed to

1630
01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:40,320
Speaker 1: order exactly, but the EPCs weren't acting as they were

1631
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:43,600
Speaker 1: supposed to. That must mean women are irrational. Yeah, he

1632
01:29:43,760 --> 01:29:46,360
Speaker 1: is seeing them as NPCs, you know. Yeah, like, yeah,

1633
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:49,040
Speaker 1: I like that, Yeah that I mean nettle whatever. Yes,

1634
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:52,639
Speaker 1: I had a fucking screaming match with my college boyfriend

1635
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 1: over NPC behavior. Um that God continue. In the case

1636
01:29:59,080 --> 01:30:01,519
Speaker 1: of Elliott, If I'm amory correctly, he basically went through

1637
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 1: the entire checklist he did the he did the fancy

1638
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:09,920
Speaker 1: close situation. Yeah, we're gonna talk about that. Yeah. So

1639
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:13,479
Speaker 1: he had tried to attract women by acting, in his words,

1640
01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:17,320
Speaker 1: cocky and arrogant. Might have a note for you there, Elliott,

1641
01:30:18,400 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 1: you'd put down other men as betas. When this did

1642
01:30:21,439 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 1: not work, he complained men shouldn't have to look and

1643
01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:27,400
Speaker 1: act like big, animalistic beasts to get women. The fact

1644
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:30,200
Speaker 1: that women still prioritize brute strength just shows that their

1645
01:30:30,240 --> 01:30:34,639
Speaker 1: minds haven't fully evolved. Oh so projecting what women want

1646
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:38,760
Speaker 1: on to them based on no evidence? Okay, cool, cool, cool? Yeah,

1647
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,479
Speaker 1: women are not drawn to indicators of evolutionary fitness. If

1648
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:47,080
Speaker 1: they were, they'd be all over me. All right, We're

1649
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:49,880
Speaker 1: just gonna let that one go because I can't. I know,

1650
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:53,640
Speaker 1: I know, Elliott, Jesus Christ Elliott spent his dad was

1651
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 1: like a Hollywood producer, and Elliot spent a huge amount

1652
01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:59,560
Speaker 1: of his foe yeah, on fancy clothing in order to

1653
01:30:59,640 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 1: pique This quote from one of his posts skips you

1654
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:04,920
Speaker 1: an indicator of how he probably came across when he

1655
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:08,960
Speaker 1: was flirting with women, and Jamie, I might vomit reading this,

1656
01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:11,320
Speaker 1: So I I do apologize if that happens and we

1657
01:31:11,439 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 1: have to pause this for a moment. I'm down to

1658
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:18,600
Speaker 1: watch a vomit. Thank you. Never insult the style of

1659
01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:22,080
Speaker 1: Elliott Roger. I'm the most stylish person in the world.

1660
01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:24,920
Speaker 1: Look at my profile pick. That's just one of my

1661
01:31:25,080 --> 01:31:28,000
Speaker 1: fabulous outfits. The sweater I'm wearing in the picture is

1662
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:35,600
Speaker 1: five hundred dollars from Neiman Marcus Guy. It sounds like

1663
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:42,880
Speaker 1: a Joe Blue line. Like he wrote in in his

1664
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:46,160
Speaker 1: YouTube videos, talked like if you if if you were

1665
01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:48,920
Speaker 1: trying to script like the worst man in the world

1666
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:51,400
Speaker 1: for a TV show or something to have as the villain,

1667
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 1: and you wrote them the way Elliott Rogers spoke and

1668
01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:57,479
Speaker 1: wrote about like his own thoughts, no one would believe you.

1669
01:31:57,920 --> 01:32:00,720
Speaker 1: It's straight up yeah, it's like a it's cartoon ish.

1670
01:32:00,840 --> 01:32:04,320
Speaker 1: I I honestly, I don't know that much about Elliott

1671
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:06,439
Speaker 1: Roger because I just I don't know when when all

1672
01:32:06,479 --> 01:32:08,519
Speaker 1: that ship was going on. I just remember actively trying

1673
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:11,759
Speaker 1: to not learn anything about him if I could possibly

1674
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:14,720
Speaker 1: help it, um because there was so much information. I like.

1675
01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:17,800
Speaker 1: That was also a time where it was the first

1676
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:22,280
Speaker 1: wave of like, let's stop giving all these fucking people

1677
01:32:22,720 --> 01:32:26,320
Speaker 1: so much air. Time, and I was, but I don't know.

1678
01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:29,760
Speaker 1: I mean Elliott Roger. I mean, yeah, he's such a

1679
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:33,840
Speaker 1: fucking cartoon that even that even men who hated women

1680
01:32:33,960 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 1: could hate Elliott Roger and not see any of his

1681
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:42,920
Speaker 1: stuff on himself. I know, But but even I'm thinking of, like,

1682
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:45,519
Speaker 1: I don't know, even guys, guys I knew at that

1683
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:50,400
Speaker 1: time who had very misogynists outlooks and attitudes, who you know,

1684
01:32:50,520 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 1: had no problem being like, oh, look at Elliott Rogers,

1685
01:32:54,040 --> 01:32:58,320
Speaker 1: such a fucking loser, which he is, but but not

1686
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:01,680
Speaker 1: also not recognizing that a lot of you know, what

1687
01:33:02,479 --> 01:33:06,000
Speaker 1: Elliott rodgers core belief system was was reflected in their behavior.

1688
01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:08,160
Speaker 1: So yeah, he believed a lot of the same things

1689
01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:11,720
Speaker 1: you did. He just was way too weird and he

1690
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:16,720
Speaker 1: was just a yeah, he was just too much of

1691
01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:21,920
Speaker 1: a loser for it for anything. Yeah, he was. I

1692
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:23,680
Speaker 1: don't know, this is probably a mistake to word it

1693
01:33:23,760 --> 01:33:25,639
Speaker 1: this way, Jamie, but I'm gonna do it for comedy.

1694
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:29,920
Speaker 1: Elliot Roger never popped his cherry, but his manifesto popped

1695
01:33:30,000 --> 01:33:32,599
Speaker 1: my manifesto cherry, because I think his was the first

1696
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:38,760
Speaker 1: manifesto I read. That's that's in there Forever Back that's

1697
01:33:38,840 --> 01:33:41,960
Speaker 1: the whole internet now. I really am like having like

1698
01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:46,160
Speaker 1: flashbacks to talking to young men around the time of

1699
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 1: Elliott Roger, and it was like just not a good time,

1700
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:53,040
Speaker 1: just not a good time at all to talking to

1701
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:55,439
Speaker 1: men my own age. And this is the same year

1702
01:33:55,479 --> 01:34:00,360
Speaker 1: that Gamergate happens, right to yeah, yeah, thirteen, right right,

1703
01:34:00,400 --> 01:34:02,160
Speaker 1: It was a little bit before um or you know,

1704
01:34:02,160 --> 01:34:03,400
Speaker 1: I was that was it was. It was right in

1705
01:34:03,479 --> 01:34:05,960
Speaker 1: that time. So from p o a hate dot com,

1706
01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 1: Roger found the forever Alone subreddit, an early online home

1707
01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:13,320
Speaker 1: for in cells. He found love shy dot com, whose

1708
01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:16,479
Speaker 1: users congregated around threads with titles like it upsets me

1709
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:19,080
Speaker 1: seeing all the hot babes I can't have sex with.

1710
01:34:21,320 --> 01:34:25,120
Speaker 1: In these communities, many increasingly radicalized in cells celebrated the

1711
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:28,719
Speaker 1: actions of George Sodini in two thousand nine, after writing

1712
01:34:28,720 --> 01:34:31,439
Speaker 1: about being constantly rejected by women, so Deny went on

1713
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:34,680
Speaker 1: a shooting spree. He killed three women and injured nine more.

1714
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:38,400
Speaker 1: Going Sodini became a shorthand term for what many of

1715
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:41,360
Speaker 1: the in cells around Roger wanted to do. And you

1716
01:34:41,439 --> 01:34:43,000
Speaker 1: all know the next part of the story. On the

1717
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:47,240
Speaker 1: evening of fourteen, Elliott Roger went on a killing spree

1718
01:34:47,320 --> 01:34:51,240
Speaker 1: in i La Vista, California, murdering six and Injuring fourteen.

1719
01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:54,720
Speaker 1: His manifesto became a foundational document for the in cell

1720
01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:58,759
Speaker 1: movement and inspired multiple deadly rampages over the next seven years.

1721
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:01,200
Speaker 1: I feel like this also was one of those things

1722
01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:03,920
Speaker 1: that really put a highlight on the meat because the

1723
01:35:04,040 --> 01:35:07,960
Speaker 1: media only talks about him. They didn't talk about Yeah.

1724
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:09,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I had a lot of friends who were

1725
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:11,640
Speaker 1: at UC Santa Barbara at the time of this, and

1726
01:35:12,240 --> 01:35:15,840
Speaker 1: that was one of the things that was it was

1727
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:19,320
Speaker 1: highlighted so much, and they, you know, as a result

1728
01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:22,200
Speaker 1: of how it was highlighted and how prominent this guy became,

1729
01:35:22,920 --> 01:35:25,679
Speaker 1: in cell stops saying going Sodini and started saying going

1730
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:28,200
Speaker 1: e er or just like e er as a Eliot

1731
01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:30,360
Speaker 1: Roger as as a code for going on a shooting

1732
01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:32,040
Speaker 1: spreed to kill a bunch of women. And there have

1733
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:34,880
Speaker 1: been I don't know, like four or five in cell

1734
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 1: mass killings, um and you know a number of them,

1735
01:35:38,760 --> 01:35:40,200
Speaker 1: at least one of them is involved a guy just

1736
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:42,400
Speaker 1: renting a van and plowing it into crowds of men

1737
01:35:42,439 --> 01:35:44,800
Speaker 1: and women, and obviously men always wound up also getting

1738
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:46,880
Speaker 1: attacked by these which you could kind of link back

1739
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:48,960
Speaker 1: to the early men's liberation movement and the fact that

1740
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:53,519
Speaker 1: all of this misogyny is also a deadly threat to men,

1741
01:35:54,000 --> 01:35:58,759
Speaker 1: like you know, like it's it's it's comprehensively a poison.

1742
01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:04,120
Speaker 1: It's good stuff. Uh, super rad boy, God, what what

1743
01:36:04,360 --> 01:36:06,760
Speaker 1: I mean? It's it's always a dark time, but that

1744
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:09,719
Speaker 1: was a that was a dark time to be talking

1745
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:14,000
Speaker 1: to twenty year old men. Just not good And that

1746
01:36:14,200 --> 01:36:17,519
Speaker 1: Jamie is more or less where we are now. There's

1747
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:19,679
Speaker 1: more to the Manno Sphere. Of course, there's the MiG Taos.

1748
01:36:19,720 --> 01:36:22,600
Speaker 1: Gamer Gate winds up kind of intersecting with this in

1749
01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:26,479
Speaker 1: a number of ways. Um. You can learn more about

1750
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:29,400
Speaker 1: the Manno Sphere and about like all of this, this

1751
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:31,479
Speaker 1: poison and how it continues to this day on the

1752
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:34,840
Speaker 1: wonderful blog We Hunted the Mammoth, where Dave Futrell has

1753
01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:38,040
Speaker 1: done a great job for years of documenting less stuff. Um.

1754
01:36:38,240 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 1: The title of his blog is based off of a

1755
01:36:40,200 --> 01:36:43,320
Speaker 1: thing these guys would keep saying about like women basically,

1756
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:46,360
Speaker 1: women owe us because our ancestors hunted mammoths for them.

1757
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:52,479
Speaker 1: Like that's what he's prove it prove it, So, Jamie,

1758
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:55,599
Speaker 1: I think this provides us with enough context to begin

1759
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:59,640
Speaker 1: our exploration of the Sigma Mail. And we're going to

1760
01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:03,960
Speaker 1: talk about that book on Thursday. I love it, so

1761
01:37:04,080 --> 01:37:09,040
Speaker 1: do I, Jamie. Any plug plug Well, this has brought

1762
01:37:09,120 --> 01:37:11,080
Speaker 1: up a bunch of bad memories. I guess you can.

1763
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:15,160
Speaker 1: It's always my goal. You can always uh follow me

1764
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:18,120
Speaker 1: on Twitter dot com, where I'm trying to be as

1765
01:37:18,400 --> 01:37:22,360
Speaker 1: little as possible uh at Jamie Long to help. You

1766
01:37:22,400 --> 01:37:26,639
Speaker 1: can listen to Lolita podcast and I would recommend, highly recommend,

1767
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:30,519
Speaker 1: and where Robert is giving the performance of a lifetime

1768
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:34,960
Speaker 1: as Latimer in weekend and week out, and I would

1769
01:37:35,000 --> 01:37:39,960
Speaker 1: recommend the Cathy cartoons. I recommend Jamie just as like

1770
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:46,320
Speaker 1: a person also sop I'd recommend. I'd recommend Robert, and

1771
01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:48,960
Speaker 1: I would. I don't know about the night. I haven't

1772
01:37:49,040 --> 01:37:52,920
Speaker 1: met this night. This night I was like, there is

1773
01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:56,439
Speaker 1: a fourth presence in the room. It would feel wrong

1774
01:37:56,520 --> 01:37:59,519
Speaker 1: not to address. I have others. He's made Curtis Holland

1775
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:03,040
Speaker 1: a free free hill blades, just just incredible stuff. He

1776
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:04,640
Speaker 1: has not paid me. I have just paid him a

1777
01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:07,639
Speaker 1: lot of money. But I'm just in love with these knives,

1778
01:38:08,280 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 1: So fight toxic masculinity by buying a knife and stanton

1779
01:38:13,160 --> 01:38:18,880
Speaker 1: Oe Okay podcast h