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Speaker 1: Before we get started, I want to give a quick

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Speaker 1: heads up. In this episode, we talked about what could

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Speaker 1: be described as self harm. In the evening, could hear

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Speaker 1: these these noises and they would always be coming from

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, just like this kind of thud thud thud,

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Speaker 1: And it would go on for a while, and it

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Speaker 1: did have a kind of fleshy components to it. But

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Speaker 1: I had so many other things to think about. It

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Speaker 1: didn't make a big effect on me until until I

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Speaker 1: understood what was actually happening. So I was washing the

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Speaker 1: sheets one day and one of my fellow postulant, Sister Alberta,

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Speaker 1: came in and she says, to so is sister Mary,

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Speaker 1: what do you think of the discipline? And I said, well,

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Speaker 1: discipline is hard, following the timetable, keeping quiet when you're reprimanded.

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Speaker 1: It just requires a lot of discipline. But it's okay.

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Speaker 1: God has called us here. And she looks at me

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Speaker 1: and she says, no, no, no, I don't mean the timetable.

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Speaker 1: What do you think of the discipline. We all have

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Speaker 1: the discipline. We have a little sheath of knotted chords

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Speaker 1: that we beat ourselves with every evening. When Sister Alberta

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Speaker 1: told me this is I. My stomach contracted and I

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Speaker 1: couldn't talk. It was hard to breathe, she says, But

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Speaker 1: don't you hear that noise the professed sisters make when

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Speaker 1: they go in the bathroom midnight. We're taking the discipline,

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Speaker 1: we're making up for our sins. I didn't really know

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Speaker 1: how to take it in at first. This is something

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Speaker 1: I really never imagined, never imagined, and it was on

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Speaker 1: an entirely different level from folder napkin in three, like

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Speaker 1: the Trinity or don't talk after night, For this was

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Speaker 1: something way different. Mary Johnson was nineteen years old when

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Speaker 1: she learned about the discipline, and still getting used to

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Speaker 1: her new life in Rome, one that was spent mostly indoors,

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Speaker 1: working in the kitchen of a men's home run by

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Speaker 1: the Missionaries of Charity. On her rare bathroom breaks, she

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Speaker 1: stop and stare out a window in the hall, and

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Speaker 1: I would see Neuro's palace. I could see the Colosseum

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Speaker 1: right there from right where I was, But it never

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Speaker 1: got out onto the streets of Rome in any sort

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Speaker 1: of sense. And just going from the convent to the

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Speaker 1: kitchen in this one of the most intriguing cities in

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Speaker 1: the world, and it felt like everything was getting very,

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Speaker 1: very small. In the kitchen, Mary's job was to wash dishes.

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Speaker 1: She also helped drain large vats of hot pasta water.

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Speaker 1: The vats were so big that the sister in charge

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Speaker 1: of the kitchen needed help to lift them. One Sunday,

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Speaker 1: after we finished mass and I came back and I

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Speaker 1: was headed towards the kitchen, I heard this horrible shriek.

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Speaker 1: Mary ran toward the sound and found her supervisor on

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Speaker 1: the floor, just covered in boiling water, burnt from head

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Speaker 1: to toe because she'd tried to drain that pop by herself.

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Speaker 1: And I ran to her, and I pulled her clothes

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Speaker 1: off her and obviously in so much pain. The first

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Speaker 1: thing she said was, sister will be so angry. Mary

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Speaker 1: knew who she meant, the superior or of the house,

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Speaker 1: who was always angry. Her gaze and judgment permeated the

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Speaker 1: mind and the heart of everyone who lived under her

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Speaker 1: lived in fear. Basically the next morning at prayer, Mary's

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Speaker 1: kitchen mate was covered in bandages because just s she

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Speaker 1: was taking these little tiny steps, and she was obviously

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Speaker 1: in a great deal of pain. So the next day

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Speaker 1: Mary assumed she'd be cooking by herself while the burn

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Speaker 1: sister recovered. And what did I discover? But she was there.

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Speaker 1: I said, you shouldn't be here. You need to go

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Speaker 1: back home and rest, I mean. And she looked at

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Speaker 1: me and she said, a missionary does not rest. She

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Speaker 1: said it in a very small, quiet kind of voice.

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Speaker 1: M hm. And I told her, ster, this is this

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Speaker 1: is really silly. I'm going to go back to the

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Speaker 1: convent and I'm going to tell sister that you her here.

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Speaker 1: And as I pulled my apron off getting ready to

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Speaker 1: go back, I heard this tiny voice, Sister is the

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Speaker 1: one who told me to come. And I saw there

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Speaker 1: were tears in her eyes and she said, Sister says

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Speaker 1: that one mother had fever. She just kept working. Through

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Speaker 1: the window at the end of the hall, Mary watched

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Speaker 1: city life passerby by spring. She was dying to get outside,

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Speaker 1: get out of the kitchen and feel the sun on

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Speaker 1: her face. She asked her mistress to please give her

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Speaker 1: a new assignment, let her work directly with the poor.

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Speaker 1: And she says, well, the sister in charge of the

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Speaker 1: kitchen won't accept anybody else. She wants only you. Mary

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Speaker 1: was devastated. She didn't think she could take it anymore.

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Speaker 1: Her mistress looked at her and said, you know, mother

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Speaker 1: always says love to be real has to hurt. When

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Speaker 1: she said those words to me, it felt like like

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Speaker 1: a slap. Love has to hurt from acco punch and

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Speaker 1: I heart media. This is the turning I am America

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Speaker 1: Lands Part two. Love to be real has to hurt.

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Speaker 1: So tell me, um, you know, I think some people

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Speaker 1: who hear the phrase love to be real has to

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Speaker 1: hurt would not like it, would feel Um, it's a

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Speaker 1: bit excessive. Yeah, what do you say to that? We're real.

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Speaker 1: Love is sacrificial. This is is their Kathleen Hughes, she

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Speaker 1: was a missionary of charity for twenty nine years. So

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Speaker 1: you think of parents taking care of children, and and

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Speaker 1: people are transformed having children because they suddenly realized they

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Speaker 1: have to clothe them and feed them and take responsibility

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Speaker 1: and then drive them here and do this. So it's

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Speaker 1: the same with taking care of the poor. And you're

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Speaker 1: not even a relative to be a missionary. In the

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Speaker 1: life of the missionaries of charity, it's a continual giving

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Speaker 1: from the minute you get up. And so seeing Christ,

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Speaker 1: as Mother Teresa would say in the distressing disguise of

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Speaker 1: the poorest of the poor. We had to see Christ

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Speaker 1: and that sister we lived with, whom we didn't like,

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Speaker 1: or who rubbed us the wrong way, you know, which

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Speaker 1: is natural in life? Or who is our superior year

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Speaker 1: and she doesn't understand us. You know, we had to

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Speaker 1: see go deeper and to find Christ there in those people.

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Speaker 1: But love to be real must hurt, must cost, must

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Speaker 1: empty us of self. Love to be real must hurt.

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Speaker 1: There's this story, a legend really about Mother Teresa's feet.

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Speaker 1: Mary says. It's one that the sisters repeated over and

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Speaker 1: over to each other. There are different versions, but the

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Speaker 1: gist is that when Mother Teresa was a young nun,

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Speaker 1: she was given shoes that were far too small. Instead

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Speaker 1: of asking for a new pair, she chose to wear

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Speaker 1: the shoes even though they didn't fit. In her mind,

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Speaker 1: they've been given by God. This was why the sister said,

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Speaker 1: Mother Teresa's feet looked deformed, her toes folded over each

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Speaker 1: other at strange angles. She had a saying that was

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Speaker 1: always kind of important to me, and that she actually

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Speaker 1: said to me personally at one point. Physicists take whatever

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Speaker 1: God gives, Give whatever God takes with a big smile.

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Speaker 1: Mary learned early on that love and sacrifice were closely linked.

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Speaker 1: It started with her aspirant mistress. She came to the

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Speaker 1: refectory one day all excited, and she said that she

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Speaker 1: had a gift for us. She was giving each one

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Speaker 1: of us sacrifice beads. She handed out little strings with

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Speaker 1: ten plastic beads on them, and she told us, pin

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Speaker 1: these sacrifice beads somewhere where no one will see them,

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Speaker 1: in your pocket or inside the waistband of your skirt.

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Speaker 1: And then every day, when you make a sacrifice, you'll

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Speaker 1: move one bead down. And then at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day you write it down this little notebook. And

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Speaker 1: at the end of the month you show me that

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Speaker 1: notebook and how many sacrifices you have made each day.

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Speaker 1: And she says, oh, there are so many ways of

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Speaker 1: making sacrifices. If the food is not salty, you don't

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Speaker 1: put in more salt. If it's already way too salty,

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Speaker 1: you add some more salt. If you want to sit

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Speaker 1: in the chapel near the window, you don't go there.

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Speaker 1: You'll find the hardest place to sit. And the thing

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Speaker 1: to me that was most noticeable was how happy she

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Speaker 1: was about it. The miscenaries of charity didn't plug this

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Speaker 1: out of thin air, this idea of sacrifice. It starts

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Speaker 1: with an important story in Christianity, the death of Jesus,

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Speaker 1: also known as the Passion or Christ's passion with a

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Speaker 1: capital P. Passion comes from the Latin word for suffering.

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Speaker 1: In the story of the Passion, Jesus experiences prolonged and

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Speaker 1: intense pain in the period before it's death. He's betrayed

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Speaker 1: by disciple, whipped, sentenced to death, and march through the city.

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Speaker 1: Soldiers nail his hands and feet to a wooden cross,

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Speaker 1: a crucifixion. He hangs this way until he dies. Christians

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Speaker 1: believe these are the sacrifices Jesus makes for the world's salvation,

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Speaker 1: and the missionaries of charity believe that by making daily

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Speaker 1: sacrifices they can share in Christ's passion help him make

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Speaker 1: up for the world's sins. They believe they can save souls.

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Speaker 1: This image of Christ on the cross is so central

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Speaker 1: to the missionaries of charity that the phrase crucified spouse

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Speaker 1: as part of their vows. This bride of Christ concept

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Speaker 1: used to be fairly common among nuns and religious sisters.

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Speaker 1: They'd often wear long white dresses like bridal gowns when

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Speaker 1: they took their vows. Today, most religious orders had moved

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Speaker 1: away from the concept. They focus more broadly on loving

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Speaker 1: God and God's creations. But the missionaries of Charity still

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Speaker 1: consider themselves married to Jesus, and Mother Teresa was very

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Speaker 1: clear she and all the nun in the order are

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Speaker 1: married to Jesus at a particular moment in his life,

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Speaker 1: the crucifixion. I have to say, the first time I

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Speaker 1: heard this about Mother Teresa, I was surprised. I knew

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Speaker 1: Jesus's death was central to Catholicism, but the messages I

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Speaker 1: heard from her growing up were so positive, so focused

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Speaker 1: on compassion. With Mother teresas focus on the poor. I

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Speaker 1: assumed she was most inspired by the Jesus who healed lepers,

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Speaker 1: that Jesus who gave sight to the blind, or stood

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Speaker 1: up for people whose society rejected, and she was. But

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Speaker 1: what Mother Teresa related to most was Jesus's darkest moment,

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Speaker 1: his torture and death. She wanted to join in his suffering.

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Speaker 1: Once I was traveling with Mother Teresa and she asked

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Speaker 1: me to bring her her prayer book. It just happened

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Speaker 1: to be open to this place where she had a

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Speaker 1: little prayer card. It was the face of Jesus son

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Speaker 1: to cross, and she had written on it Jesus, I

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Speaker 1: love you so much. And I felt very um, oh,

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Speaker 1: my goodness. I'm not supposed to see this. This is

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Speaker 1: something very intimate. This is but you know, it was

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Speaker 1: like that was what Jesus on the cross was for Mother.

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Speaker 1: This was her crucified spouse in Rome. Mary's work in

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Speaker 1: the kitchen continued. She longed for another assignment, but pushed

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Speaker 1: those thoughts aside. Instead, she thought of Mother's words, the

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Speaker 1: less we think of ourselves, the more God thinks of us.

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Speaker 1: Jesus must increase, I must decrease. She looked forward to

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Speaker 1: Sundays when she led the singing for Mass. She loved

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Speaker 1: the Italian hymns, and I gave her a break from

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Speaker 1: the kitchen, if only for an hour. Mary often thought

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Speaker 1: about what her hard work was leading to what they

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Speaker 1: call first vows, the moment in less than three years

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Speaker 1: when she'd become a professed sister, a major step in

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Speaker 1: her evolution as a nun. She also wondered about those

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Speaker 1: strange noises from the bathroom the repetitive sound of ropes

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Speaker 1: hitting flesh. By now she knew it was the discipline,

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Speaker 1: the sisters beating themselves to atone for their own sins

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Speaker 1: and for the sins of others, to save souls. So

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Speaker 1: after dinner each night, I would hear this slap slap

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Speaker 1: slap from the bathroom stalls ended, cringe and feel my

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Speaker 1: pulse race. It's like almost like like excitement. Ever since

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Speaker 1: that sister in the laundry room had told Mary about

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Speaker 1: the discipline, she'd been trying to make sense of it.

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Speaker 1: Why didn't anyone tell me about this, she wondered? Should

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Speaker 1: I be taking initiative and ask for a rope? What's

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Speaker 1: God's will? Hitting herself didn't seem logical to marry, even

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Speaker 1: though Jesus suffered, she didn't think he sought it out.

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Speaker 1: But sacrifice to save someone else's soul from eternal damnation,

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Speaker 1: that was a length. Love to be real has to hurt.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to learn how to love. I wanted love

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Speaker 1: to be the central thing in my life. So this

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Speaker 1: is a new way to love. Well. Jesus was whipped

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Speaker 1: before he was crucified, and this would be a way

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Speaker 1: of being united with Jesus. Finally she found clarity. She

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Speaker 1: told herself, if this is a divine test, I'll take it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the discipline is what I need to fully submit myself,

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Speaker 1: beat myself into humility and generosity. She went and told

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Speaker 1: her mistress sister, um, I've heard we're supposed to use

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Speaker 1: the discipline, but nobody ever gave me one. She said, oh,

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Speaker 1: I see, I'll take care of it. So then what happened?

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Speaker 1: How much time passed until the discipline came up again?

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Speaker 1: So one evening we were walking to the refectory and

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Speaker 1: I heard somebody whisper my name. I turned around in

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Speaker 1: the dark corridor and realized that it was Sura mistress.

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Speaker 1: And she stuffed something scratchy into my hand and closed

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Speaker 1: my fingers around it. And when I got to the light,

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Speaker 1: I looked down and I saw those knotted chords of

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Speaker 1: rough rope that were dangling from my fist and realized

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Speaker 1: what it was, and I stuffed it into my my

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Speaker 1: skirt pocket. Another sister walked into the bathroom, and Mary

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Speaker 1: realized she was supposed to follow. The sister took one stall.

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Speaker 1: Mary took another, but she had no idea what to

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Speaker 1: do exactly, how was she supposed to last herself. At first,

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Speaker 1: I tried to whack at my back, but that gave

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00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,840
Speaker 1: like a muffled sound. So I lifted my skirt and

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Speaker 1: swung at my legs, just above my knees, and that

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00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,720
Speaker 1: sounded pretty right, about a little softer maybe than what

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Speaker 1: I had heard. So I swung harder, and I swung

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Speaker 1: at my thighs until they turned red. And as I

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Speaker 1: hit harder, there were these white streaks from the rope

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Speaker 1: on the red flesh, and I thought, well, now I

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Speaker 1: figured it out. I'm doing penance like the saints. This

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Speaker 1: is the kind of thing saints do, isn't it. That night,

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Speaker 1: like every night, Mary and the rest of the sisters

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Speaker 1: knelt next to their cots as they prayed, they extended

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Speaker 1: their arms out to each side and help them there,

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Speaker 1: making the shape of a cross, almost like they were

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Speaker 1: on the cross with Jesus. In nine, a year into

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Speaker 1: her time in Rome, Mary was finally given the assignment

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Speaker 1: she had longed for, go out into the community helped

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Speaker 1: the four she'd moved to a new convent on the

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Speaker 1: outskirts of Rome, in a neighborhood called toward Fiscale. It

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Speaker 1: was flanked by ancient Roman aqueducts. Many people lived in

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Speaker 1: the archways of these aqueducts. They leaned planks against the

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Speaker 1: arches to make walls, old billboards to advertising Ferraris and

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Speaker 1: Colgate toothpaste. One man who lived there was named Alvaro.

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Speaker 1: We'd call out whenever we passed by Alvaro's arch and

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Speaker 1: we'd ask him if we could come in and talk,

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Speaker 1: and he would always say no, no, no, next time,

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Speaker 1: next time, next time. And that went on for weeks

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Speaker 1: and weeks and weeks. Unexpectedly, a week before Christmas, Alvaros

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Speaker 1: lit his billboard door aside. He let Mary and her

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Speaker 1: partner into his home, and when we went in, the

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00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 1: smell was so strong that we had to hold handkerchiefs

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Speaker 1: near our noses. There's just so much smell. Mary and

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Speaker 1: the other sister pulled everything out, lots and lots and

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Speaker 1: lots of bottles. There was a mattress reeking of urine,

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Speaker 1: and we burned it in the field behind the aqueduct.

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Speaker 1: They scrubbed the walls and made a bed for him

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Speaker 1: from cinder blocks with a new, clean mattress. When al

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Speaker 1: Varro saw the feather pillow, he cried it was just beautiful.

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Speaker 1: They lit a candle and the three of them sang together,

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Speaker 1: very traditional Italian Christmas song. Um to send it a

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Speaker 1: list Lisad little Chill, Havienona Groadta alfredocher Lo Avienona Groadta

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Speaker 1: alfredocher Loo. Helping people like Alvaro. This is what Mary

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Speaker 1: wanted from her life as a missionary of charity. But

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00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 1: she was lonely too. Nineteen year old Mary really wanted

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Speaker 1: a friend at that point because it was getting more

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Speaker 1: and more isolated. Everything was all the contact with my

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00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 1: family had been cut off. Oh. I used to get

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Speaker 1: homesick a lot. MC sisters were only allowed to write

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00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,359
Speaker 1: home once a month. The superior reviewed all of their letters.

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00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 1: Mary says. The superiors told sisters not to write about

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00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 1: what happened in the community, don't mention hardship, and we

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00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 1: couldn't receive phone call from our families unless it was

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00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 1: a real emergency, if someone had died or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Family could visit if they could afford to travel to

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Speaker 1: wherever in the world you were stationed. But his sister

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00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 1: was allowed to visit home only once every ten years.

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Speaker 1: And I had no idea that that was part of

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Speaker 1: becoming a missionary of charity. Really, I didn't know that

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00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 1: I'd only get to write a letter home once a month.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that I'd only get to visit my

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00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: family once every ten years. I had no idea about

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Speaker 1: all of that. And you see, there were all sorts

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00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 1: of rules that were trotted out only when you had

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Speaker 1: been adequately prepared, when you had already invested certain things,

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Speaker 1: when you'd already come to accept so many things that

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00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 1: didn't make a whole lot of sense. And well this

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00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: was just one more. It was very hard on my family,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure. It was luck ill was did almost

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Speaker 1: Collet Livermore didn't know Mary Johnson. She started with the

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Speaker 1: MCS in Australia in v She still remembers her first

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00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: day in the convent. My friend Ruth came and we

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00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: were putting our stuff away in our dormitory and Ruth

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00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: was lying on the bed munching an apple and chatting away.

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Speaker 1: Sister Victoria came and blew us up. You know, this

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Speaker 1: is our first day sisters, with all sisters us. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you don't talk in the dormitory, you don't talk at

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Speaker 1: all between meals. You definitely don't lie on the bed

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Speaker 1: and munch in apple. You know, so we quickly got

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Speaker 1: the idea. Collette felt some guilt about leaving her family.

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Speaker 1: Her mom raised four kids on her own, and since

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Speaker 1: Colette was the oldest, she helped out a light. So

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Speaker 1: Mom didn't want me to go, but off I went.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's sort of pretty selfish. Actually, Sometimes the

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Speaker 1: superior held letters back for a while as a acrifice.

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Speaker 1: Collette remembers one time in particular, mail was withheld for lent.

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Speaker 1: She missed an important letter from her mother, Rodney. What

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Speaker 1: if her brothers was in the hospital it looked like

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00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: he might die. After Colette's mother didn't get a response,

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Speaker 1: she called the convent in tears. Collette's mistress let her

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Speaker 1: take the call. Didn't you get my letter? Rodney's dying.

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Speaker 1: He's really really seek both his lungs of collepse. Collette

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Speaker 1: told her mom she hadn't received her letter. She said,

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Speaker 1: now I know I really lost you. Collette says she

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Speaker 1: asked her superior for permission to go home to see

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Speaker 1: her brother, who was still in the hospital. Permission was denied.

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00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: She couldn't leave the convent. Collette told her mother she

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00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't be coming to visit. I wanted to go home,

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00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: but you see, I had no money and my hair

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00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: was completely shaved. Not that that would have stopped me,

339
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: but I didn't have any regular clothes. I had just

340
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: a sorry and everything. Yeah, it's just strange how completely

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00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: cut off you are from your family and from your

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00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 1: usual way of life. I just needed to have a

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Speaker 1: bit more of a spine. I think and say, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going, But for some reason I didn't, and I

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00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: regret that now. I can't understand why I didn't. You know,

346
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Speaker 1: I can't understand myself, but I must have been controlled

347
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: from the inside a bit in rome. After Mary Johnson

348
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: took the discipline for the first time, beating herself became routine.

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Speaker 1: Did you do this every day for twenty or so years?

350
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Speaker 1: I mean, was this really a daily practice for all

351
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Speaker 1: those years? Was there a daily practice every day except

352
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: Sunday or big feast days. You started off with very

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00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: few strokes, if I remember right, it was about fifteen. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: when I became a finely professed sister, it would be

355
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: fifty strokes. Fifty strokes strokes every night, Yeah, and that

356
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: was that was usual. And then there would be certain

357
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 1: times we would do double penance during Lent or any

358
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: other time Mother chose. The sisters did double penance a

359
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: hundred strokes a day, joining in the passion of their

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Speaker 1: crucified spouse. Before I started this project, I had no

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Speaker 1: idea Mother Treesa's orders still did this kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: that it was an expectation of a modern day order.

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00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: A new corporal mortification was still a thing in the

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00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: Catholic Church, causing pain or discomfort to yourself, usually as

365
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: some form of spiritual growth, fasting as an example. So

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00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: I was kneeling in prayer, but whipping. I didn't think

367
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Speaker 1: nuns would still be expected to whip themselves, certainly not

368
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Speaker 1: fifty times a night. The type of whipping is known

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00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: as self flagellation, and what I learned is that it

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00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: has a long history, dating back to the eleventh century.

371
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: In some cases, monks whipped their naked bodies together out

372
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Speaker 1: in the open. It really took off in the thirteen

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00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: hundreds when Europeans whipped themselves as a form of religious protest.

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Speaker 1: Over time, though, it became more of a private thing,

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Speaker 1: serving as penance or a way to share in christ

376
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Speaker 1: suffering and be closer to God. It fell more out

377
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: of favor in the nineteen fifties and sixties, around the

378
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Speaker 1: same time as a second Vatican Council known as Vatican Too.

379
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: If you don't know what Vatican Too is, it's basically

380
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 1: when the Church updated its rules and rituals to try

381
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: to match modern life, but some people held on to

382
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: corporal mortification. Pope John Paul the Second reportedly practice self flagellation,

383
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: and so did the missionaries of Charity. We asked the

384
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: Missionaries of Charity to comment on this, and they refused

385
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: to be interviewed, but a sister we spoke to who

386
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: left the order in ten said it was still practiced then.

387
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: To be honest, I feel a little weird even talking

388
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: about the discipline because I think it's more of a

389
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: private thing for the sisters, but it's such a big

390
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: part of daily life. Mary Johnson thinks it has real

391
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: spiritual and psychological effects. Certainly, beating yourself every day is

392
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: a reminder that you're a sinner, taking away any sort

393
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: of pride, you're someone who needs to beat yourself. I

394
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: think that in some circumstances also, there could be a

395
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: kind of sado masochistic erotic pleasure thing going on. I

396
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 1: think a lot of things do get twisted or can

397
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 1: potentially get twisted around when all the all sexual energy

398
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: desire has to be repressed or sublimated um and I

399
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if if that element was there

400
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: in some way or another. For Mary, the discipline was

401
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: a comfort when she felt guilty. After she confessed she

402
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: could atone That relief of having the discipline close at

403
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: hand to help expiate whatever wrong one might have done

404
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: could be a thing where you would feel the pleasure

405
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: of the relief of I don't have to bear that

406
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: burden of guilt in the same sort of way because

407
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: I'm doing something to make reparation for it. The rope

408
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 1: wasn't the only form of penance. There are many, some physical,

409
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: some psychological, like the spiked chains. For an hour a day,

410
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: sisters wore these chains around one arm and their waist,

411
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: the spikes poked inward. There were forms of public penance,

412
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: like kissing the feet of your fellow sisters. You'd go

413
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: down a row of nuns and touch your forehead to

414
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: each of their feet, or there would be to kiss

415
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: the footsteps like you're not even worthy even to put

416
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: your forehead on her foot. Another public penance was called

417
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: beg the meal. At dinner, you'd go to the superior

418
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: and Neil kiss the floor, hold your ball there and say,

419
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: I beg you your sister, please give me something to eat,

420
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: and she would put the soup, bread, whatever into your

421
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,239
Speaker 1: bowl and you would take it to a corner in

422
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: the room and you would eat it kneeling. Mary says,

423
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: public penance and public apology could be a really good thing.

424
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: You're trying to build a community in close quarters, and

425
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: I could see how being open and vulnerable that's powerful.

426
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: One of the things that I learned from my life

427
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: with the Missionaries of Charity is the value of a

428
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: sincere apology, being honest about the fact that we all

429
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: make mistakes, deliberate or not, and the public acknowledgement of

430
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: that doesn't have to make you smaller somehow, it just

431
00:29:52,800 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: makes you more real, more honest. February. Mary still in Rome.

432
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: She's still a novice. That means she's early in her

433
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: MC life, but she knows that might change soon. In

434
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: a few weeks, she'll write her letter to Mother Teresa,

435
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: requesting to take vows for the first time. Of course,

436
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: Mary has been living them, but this will be her

437
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: first official commitment. If permission is granted, there will be

438
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: an elaborate ceremony for this important moment. Then it will

439
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: be too late for second thoughts. Mary has trouble sleeping.

440
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: She tosses in turns and wonders if she's meant to

441
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: be a sister. The other nuns sleep around her in

442
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: their cots, so everything was close. You could always hear

443
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: if somebody was snoring. But this particular night, I was

444
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: fast asleep and heard this shouting and this commotion and

445
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: these words very loud. I need a man, I need

446
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: a man. Someone lights a candle and Mary sees who

447
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: called out in the dark. It's the mistress in charge,

448
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: the same sister who gave Mary the rope for taking

449
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: the discipline. So here's this woman set to teach us chastity, poverty, obedience,

450
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: and service, and she's yelling out in the middle of

451
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: the night. For man. It was rather shocking to tell.

452
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: The truth was like, WHOA, what's going on? The sister

453
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: was dreaming. Mary cracked open the shutters to let in

454
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: the moonlight. Another sister held the shoulders of their mistress,

455
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: who shook under her blanket. There were tears on her face.

456
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: The next morning, the mistress slept in and sequestered herself

457
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: for most of the day. I think she was so

458
00:31:55,280 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: completely embarrassed. We needed her in so many ways. She

459
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: was the one who was supposed to be leading us,

460
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: and here she just disappeared. Mary told a fellow sister

461
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: about her concerns about their mistress's dream, her seclusion, and

462
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: how they needed her back. Then their mistress walked into

463
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: the room. She'd heard it all. Yes, it was a

464
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: little bit embarrassing, but more than that, it felt like

465
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: an opportunity for me. So finally I'm going to get

466
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: a chance to say something to her because we hadn't

467
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: seen her for so long, and just you know, so

468
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: I'm telling her so we need you, you know, please

469
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: come come back. And she was very concerned. She said,

470
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: but some of the sisters are so shocked by what

471
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: I said. And I said, well, well, if they're shocked you,

472
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: what they need is for you to come out and

473
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: just explain something or just talk to us, let us

474
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: know that you're all right. We all have temptations. You've

475
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: shown us that you're human, So why don't you come

476
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: back and let us know that what you've always told us,

477
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: that Jesus is enough for us. And she looked at

478
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: me and she said, because Jesus isn't enough for me.

479
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: That night, Mary lay awake for a long time. This

480
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: was the first time an authority figure had expressed this

481
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: kind of vulnerability to her. As she lay there, she wondered,

482
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 1: what does it feel like to need a man so

483
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: much that you shout in your sleep? Why wasn't Jesus enough.

484
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 1: Mary was twenty one years old. She'd never been on

485
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: a date, never had a relationship, never even been to

486
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: a school dance. She saw couples in Rome holding each

487
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: other and kissing and made her excited, But she always

488
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: reminded herself, God loves me more than those two people

489
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: love each other. On her cot in the dark, she

490
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: told herself, doubt is the devil's work. To want more

491
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 1: is sinful. Sister Donata, you are nothing. You have always

492
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: been nothing, You will always be nothing. A few weeks

493
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: after the incident with her mistress, Mary wrote the letter

494
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: to Mother Teresa. She was ready for her vows. While

495
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: the novices waited anxiously for Mother's reply, they spent more

496
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: time praying. They doubled their strokes of the discipline and

497
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: their chains for longer. Finally Mary got the answer. Mother

498
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: said yes, she could take her first Vous June was

499
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: the big day, Mary's biggest day yet in the Missionaries

500
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: of Charity. She wore a white sorry her wedding dress.

501
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: Mary's family traveled to Rome from Texas to be there.

502
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: The Archbishop was there, so is Mother Teresa. As part

503
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: of the ceremony, Mary's father stood before the congregation and

504
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: read from the Bible. He looked at Mary when he said,

505
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: for his sake, I have suffered the loss of all

506
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: things and count them as refuse in order that I

507
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: may gain Christ and be found in him. He had

508
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: tears in his eyes. There were more readings than a homily.

509
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: Eventually each novice was called to the front. When they

510
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: called Sister Donata, Mary replied, Lord, you have called me.

511
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: She then read her vows. Her hands shook I, Sister

512
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: Mary Donata Johnson, vow for one year chastity, poverty, obedience,

513
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: and wholehearted and free service to the poorest of the poor.

514
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: According to the constitutions of the Missionaries of Charity, I

515
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: give myself with my whole heart to this religious family,

516
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: so that by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and

517
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: with the help of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, cause

518
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: of our joy and Queen of the world, I may

519
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: be led to the perfect love of God and neighbor

520
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: and make the Church fully present in the world of today.

521
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 1: When she finished, Mary stepped toward the archbishop and knelt.

522
00:36:54,520 --> 00:37:00,479
Speaker 1: He handed her a new crucifix. She kissed it. Mother

523
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: Teresa then wedge the crucifix on Mary's left side between

524
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: the sorry and the belt. Mary knew she would carry

525
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: this cross every day for the rest of her life.

526
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: Jesus was Mary's spouse over the better part of the

527
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: next decade. She had assignments in New York, in Winnipeg,

528
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: in Washington, d c. She even became an assistant superior.

529
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: She worked with kids in the community, led summer camps.

530
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: She loved that work and spending time with her fellow sisters.

531
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: I enjoyed hearing their stories, you know that talk about

532
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: what life was like in India or Africa, or Lebanon

533
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 1: or wherever they came from. Many of them had gone

534
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: through all sorts of difficult things to get there. There.

535
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: There there were, for the most part, women who came

536
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: wanting to serve, wanting to give of themselves, and it

537
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 1: just felt nice to to be with most of them.

538
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: By the end of the eighties, Mary's back in Rome.

539
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 1: One day, the superior of her convent, Sister Stella, calls

540
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: everyone together. She made an announcement, a rather unusual announcement.

541
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: She said that there was a new sister coming to

542
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: the community, and she wanted us to know that this

543
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 1: sister I had had some troubles in her community, the

544
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: community she was coming from, so I knew that that

545
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: something was up, Mary says. They were told not to

546
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: ask what those troubles were, that we should all be

547
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: extra kind to this sister. The day the new sister arrived,

548
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: Mary was sitting at the table working on MC financial accounts.

549
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 1: She walked in with his presence. She was tall, and

550
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: she's pretty and broad shouldered and sense of herself about

551
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: her that was so on like what most of the

552
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: missionaries of charity had, and so she caught my attention.

553
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: The sister introduced herself. We're not using her real name.

554
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: Mary calls her sister Niobe. She brought Niobe some lunch,

555
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: and I placed it in front of her and she

556
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: started picking up her fork, and then Sister Stella looked

557
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: at her and said, but you didn't even say grace.

558
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: And this Sister Niobe rolled her eyes a little bit

559
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: in my direction, where St. Stella couldn't really see her.

560
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: And then Sister Niobee said grace, but without standing up

561
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: and without making the sign of the cross, all of

562
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: which were very much protocol. And then she started eating,

563
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, I may actually like the sister.

564
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: She has a mind of her own. Look at that.

565
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: One Sunday afternoon, Mary was looking for a place to

566
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: write her monthly letter to her family. It was hot,

567
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: so she went outside to an area between the convent

568
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: and the monastery. We call that the garden. Even though

569
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: there was nothing growing there except a little grass, there

570
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: was a little bench and I walked in a little

571
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: disappointed because it was already occupied. Niobe was there and

572
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: she was sitting on the bench, and so I turned

573
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: around to to go out, and she said, no, no,

574
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: come sit here with me. Mary sat on the bench

575
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: next to Niobe and started her letter to her parents,

576
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: but Naobe started talking. I just wanted to thank you

577
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: for being so nice to me. It's it's not so

578
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: easy to change communities, and you've been nice. And then

579
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: she tells me this really strange thing. She says, you know,

580
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: there are some very decent sisters here, but you are

581
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: the best. And that felt really weird because by this

582
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: time I had been in the convent more than ten years,

583
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: and nobody had ever complimented me for anything, because we

584
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: don't make compliments. That would be like a temptation to pride,

585
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: and so you just don't do those things. And I

586
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: can't imagine going ten years about a single compliment. That's

587
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: that's that's a lot. And here she's saying, you are

588
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: the best. And okay, when am I getting myself into here?

589
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 1: Mary was a little shocked by Naobe's forwardness and warmth,

590
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: and I said, oh, well, okay, thank you, and I'm

591
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: going to write my letter now. But Naobe kept talking.

592
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: She started asking all sorts of questions. She says, you

593
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: want to get to know me better, and she's asking

594
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: about my family and and it was kind of irresistible,

595
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: the thought that somebody was actually interested in me as

596
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: a person, even had noticed me as a person, not

597
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: just as somebody to do things. But I knew it

598
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: was dangerous because we've always been told that it was dangerous,

599
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: and it felt very risky, and that kind of added

600
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: to the allure to tell the truth and it and

601
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 1: it felt really good just to sit somebody and and

602
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: so we we sat there and by the time the

603
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,919
Speaker 1: two hours for writing letters wore up, mindset, dear mom

604
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: and dad, how are you? And that was about it.

605
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: For ten years, Mary had worked so hard to be

606
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: a perfect nun. It consumed her thoughts, took over her being.

607
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: That included the rule about particular friendships, as the MCS

608
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: called them. No one was allowed to have a particular friendship.

609
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: But Mary found it thrilling to break the rules with Naobe.

610
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: Every now and then we'd find a little time to

611
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: have some sort of little conversation. I'd find that she

612
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: was often trying to sit next to me during meals,

613
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: and she would sometimes sit very close to me. At

614
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: those meals. She might even touch Mary's foot with hers

615
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: and that felt very risky and forbidden, and you know,

616
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: just doing this surrounded by everybody. And so times she'd

617
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 1: take her hand and just put it on top of

618
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: my knee under the table. And I can't tell you

619
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: how that sent chills up and down, because nobody had

620
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: had touched me in that way for forever and ever,

621
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: and it felt so good. Then one morning, when the

622
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: nuns were still in grand silence, Mary was putting wet

623
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: laundry on the line to dry. She had a bucket

624
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,479
Speaker 1: of clothes beside her and a clothespin in her hand,

625
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, Niobe is next to me,

626
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 1: and she's whispering in my ear. Mary dropped her clothespin.

627
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: The world turned electric. She whispers in my ear, Sister Dona,

628
00:43:53,960 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 1: I love you. The Turning is written by Allen lance

629
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: Lesser and Me. Our producers are Allen lance Lesser and

630
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: Emily Foreman. Our editor is Rob Rosenthal. Andrea A Suage

631
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: is our digital producer. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado

632
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Amy Gains, Sarah oh Lender, Catherine Joyce,

633
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: Beth and Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, and consulting producer Mary Johnson.

634
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration for this series.

635
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Jessica Alpert and John Tarotti at

636
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: for Coco Punch and Katrina Norville and I Heart Media.

637
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Matt Reid for photos and

638
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: more details on the series. Follow us on Instagram at

639
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: for Coco Punch. You can reach out via email to

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00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: the Turning at for Coco punch dot com I America Lance,

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Speaker 1: thanks for listening to