WEBVTT - Elif Shafak's "Multiple Belongings" 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.716 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.716 --> 0:00:25.876 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:26.316 --> 0:00:30.116 I'm Noah Feldman. Today we speak to a globally best 0:00:30.156 --> 0:00:33.916 selling novelist who has a special knack for angering the 0:00:33.956 --> 0:00:38.036 Turkish government. Her name is Elif Shafak. In two thousand 0:00:38.036 --> 0:00:40.076 and six, at the height of her fame, she was 0:00:40.196 --> 0:00:43.596 charged with insulting Turkishness because one of the characters in 0:00:43.636 --> 0:00:46.796 her novel The Bastard of Istanbul, referred to the murder 0:00:46.836 --> 0:00:50.356 of Armenians during World War One as a genocide. That 0:00:50.436 --> 0:00:55.556 case was eventually dismissed, but last year Turkish authorities began 0:00:55.636 --> 0:00:58.156 a new investigation into her past work for what they 0:00:58.156 --> 0:01:02.196 called quote crimes of obscenity. One thing that the Turkish 0:01:02.196 --> 0:01:04.636 authorities have not been able to do, however, is to 0:01:04.716 --> 0:01:07.876 keep Turkish readers and readers all over the world from 0:01:07.956 --> 0:01:11.716 devouring Elif's books. The government also hasn't been able to 0:01:11.756 --> 0:01:14.476 keep critics around the world from praising Eliaf's books either. 0:01:15.316 --> 0:01:18.356 Her most recent novel, Ten Minutes thirty eight Seconds in 0:01:18.356 --> 0:01:22.396 This Strange World was shortlisted for the twenty nineteen Booker Prize. 0:01:23.036 --> 0:01:26.036 The novel is about a prostitute named to Quila Leila, 0:01:26.556 --> 0:01:29.596 and it begins at the end of her story with 0:01:29.636 --> 0:01:33.116 her body found in a dumpster. A Leif joined me 0:01:33.156 --> 0:01:35.916 from London, where she now lives, to talk to me 0:01:35.996 --> 0:01:40.076 about that new book and much more. Let me begin 0:01:40.116 --> 0:01:44.756 by asking a little bit about your process of writing. 0:01:44.916 --> 0:01:48.116 This is your eleventh novel, and you did something rather 0:01:48.196 --> 0:01:51.556 extraordinary and among writers, which is that you wrote many 0:01:51.596 --> 0:01:55.196 of your first novels in Turkish, your first language, and 0:01:55.276 --> 0:01:58.716 then you switched to writing in English. And as I 0:01:58.756 --> 0:02:00.516 was thinking about it, I thought, that's even harder than 0:02:00.556 --> 0:02:03.476 what Joseph Conrad did, because he, of course spoke Polish 0:02:03.476 --> 0:02:04.796 as his first language, and then he started but when 0:02:04.796 --> 0:02:07.076 he started writing novels, he started writting them in English. 0:02:07.236 --> 0:02:10.716 What you have done is more like what Nabokov did, 0:02:10.996 --> 0:02:14.276 writing many of his novels first in Russian and then 0:02:14.356 --> 0:02:18.796 turning to writing novels in English. What moved you to 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:20.676 make that transition? And then I'd love to hear about 0:02:20.676 --> 0:02:23.116 some of the challenges and gifts that derive from that. 0:02:24.076 --> 0:02:27.396 I appreciate it. It is a challenge, and the master 0:02:27.516 --> 0:02:29.956 want to be honest, because I did not grow up 0:02:29.996 --> 0:02:34.276 in a bilingual environment, and I started learning English at 0:02:34.316 --> 0:02:38.996 the age of ten in Spain in Madrid, so at 0:02:38.996 --> 0:02:42.236 the time Spanish was my second language and English became 0:02:42.316 --> 0:02:45.836 my third. Turkish is my mother tongue, and of course, 0:02:45.956 --> 0:02:48.996 to me, English is an acquired language, which means I'm 0:02:49.036 --> 0:02:53.276 an outsider in this language, and I'm an immigrant, you know, 0:02:53.356 --> 0:02:57.156 a latecomer. And I think, like all immigrants know, there's 0:02:57.196 --> 0:03:01.516 always a gap between the mind and the tongue. When 0:03:01.516 --> 0:03:04.756 you're an immigrant, you always try to say more, but 0:03:04.876 --> 0:03:07.036 in a way you end up saying less. Maybe you 0:03:07.036 --> 0:03:09.876 want to crack better jokes, but there's always is a gap. 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:13.796 And I think that gap can be quite intimidating. But 0:03:13.876 --> 0:03:16.476 if we learn not to be intimidated by that, I 0:03:16.516 --> 0:03:20.036 think it can also be very inspiring. In a nutshell, 0:03:20.076 --> 0:03:24.636 I think I'm someone who loves languages plural. I love letters. 0:03:25.036 --> 0:03:27.796 To me, it's almost magical, the very fact that with 0:03:27.836 --> 0:03:31.796 a very limited number of letters we can create endless meanings. 0:03:32.236 --> 0:03:35.396 I love that. I adore that I wrote my earlier 0:03:35.436 --> 0:03:38.636 novels all in Turkish first, and then about fifteen years 0:03:38.636 --> 0:03:42.396 ago now I switched to writing in English first, and 0:03:42.516 --> 0:03:45.836 at the time in Turkey there was a big backlash. 0:03:46.236 --> 0:03:50.236 People criticize me a lot, especially nationalists, saying she now 0:03:50.396 --> 0:03:54.076 cannot be a Turkish author because you know, they accuse 0:03:54.156 --> 0:03:57.516 me of practically abundaning my mother tongue. And I think 0:03:57.516 --> 0:04:00.916 that's one of the many problems with nationalism. It's always 0:04:00.916 --> 0:04:04.196 an either or thing for them, Whereas I believe you 0:04:04.276 --> 0:04:07.036 can if you can dream in more than one language, 0:04:07.116 --> 0:04:10.156 you can write fiction more than one language. So all 0:04:10.196 --> 0:04:12.956 I can say over the years is that I found 0:04:13.716 --> 0:04:18.236 the possibility of writing in another language freeing. To me. 0:04:18.276 --> 0:04:22.076 It's freedom, and I needed that. Writing in Turkish can 0:04:22.116 --> 0:04:25.516 be quite heavy, and I needed a bit of cognitive distance. 0:04:25.836 --> 0:04:29.116 Writing in English gave me that sense of freedom overall. 0:04:29.396 --> 0:04:34.196 If my writing has melancholy, sadness, longing, and sorrow, I 0:04:34.236 --> 0:04:37.156 find these things much easier to express in Turkish. But 0:04:37.236 --> 0:04:40.716 when it comes to humor and irony and maybe satire, 0:04:41.036 --> 0:04:44.756 I find these things much easier in English. Well, this 0:04:44.876 --> 0:04:48.236 new novel has both. It has melancholy and it has longing, 0:04:48.556 --> 0:04:51.916 and it has humor and satire. And it strikes me 0:04:51.956 --> 0:04:54.436 that it must have been particularly challenging to write a novel, 0:04:54.796 --> 0:04:57.556 all of the action of which takes place in Turkey, 0:04:57.716 --> 0:05:02.036 in Turkish, in the English language. In other words, there 0:05:02.116 --> 0:05:05.076 must have been some degree of internal thought of translation 0:05:05.116 --> 0:05:07.756 on your part as you imagined what your characters might 0:05:07.796 --> 0:05:10.916 have said. Since you know the characters, presumably in your imagination, 0:05:10.956 --> 0:05:14.316 we're saying these words originally in Turkish. All the things 0:05:14.396 --> 0:05:17.076 I do not translate in my head, because for me, 0:05:17.236 --> 0:05:19.996 language is a bit like a zone, you know, a 0:05:19.996 --> 0:05:23.796 different zone space I enter in, and so when I 0:05:23.836 --> 0:05:26.596 am in that space, I'm in that space. I do 0:05:26.716 --> 0:05:30.636 not translate in my head, which doesn't mean I don't 0:05:30.676 --> 0:05:34.356 make mistakes. I will always make mistakes or mispronounced words, 0:05:34.396 --> 0:05:37.156 but I'm in that space, and to me, that's very 0:05:37.156 --> 0:05:41.476 important to follow the flow, the rhythm of that language. 0:05:41.676 --> 0:05:44.516 And in a way, maybe when I'm a little bit 0:05:44.556 --> 0:05:48.556 distant from the Turkish language, maybe I can take a 0:05:48.596 --> 0:05:52.276 closer look at my motherland. It's a bit like if 0:05:52.316 --> 0:05:54.756 when you want to see a painting better, you don't 0:05:54.796 --> 0:05:57.316 get nearer, you just sometimes need to take a step back. 0:05:57.756 --> 0:06:02.156 And that space in between, that cognitive distance or linguistic distance, 0:06:02.196 --> 0:06:05.436 if you will, I found it in a paradoxical way, 0:06:05.636 --> 0:06:09.556 maybe it brings me closer to Turkey. In fact, I 0:06:09.556 --> 0:06:12.156 want to ask you a little bit about national allegory. 0:06:12.756 --> 0:06:15.076 There are moments reading the novel when I thought of, 0:06:15.756 --> 0:06:22.196 you know, the protagonist's father's gradual move towards greater religious observance, 0:06:22.796 --> 0:06:26.916 and the components of hypocrisy that the novel draws attention 0:06:26.916 --> 0:06:29.796 to in that in that process where I wondered if 0:06:29.836 --> 0:06:33.716 those could be read as engage with or in criticism 0:06:33.796 --> 0:06:36.836 of changes and developments that have taken place in Turkey 0:06:36.836 --> 0:06:40.476 in recent decades. I think that's correct, because what we've 0:06:40.516 --> 0:06:45.516 seen in Turkey is a slide backwards, first a gradual one, 0:06:46.036 --> 0:06:50.036 and then speeding up, I think, with a bewildering speed. 0:06:50.036 --> 0:06:53.796 We've seen a decline. By that, I mean as we've 0:06:53.836 --> 0:07:01.316 lost democracy, we've also seen a rise in nationalism, religiosity definitely, 0:07:01.436 --> 0:07:07.956 fundamentalism of all kinds, authoritarianism certainly. But when these things happen, 0:07:08.076 --> 0:07:11.196 I think women need to be more worried because alongside 0:07:11.196 --> 0:07:14.396 we've seen an increase in patriarchy, we've seen an increase 0:07:14.516 --> 0:07:17.796 in sexism, and also we've seen an increasing in homophobia 0:07:17.836 --> 0:07:20.796 and transphobia. In my opinion, it's this is not a 0:07:20.836 --> 0:07:25.916 coincidence because wherever we see an increasingbltranationalism. Any kind of 0:07:26.356 --> 0:07:29.756 extremist narrative will always go hand in hand with some 0:07:29.836 --> 0:07:35.876 kind of misogyny an intolerance towards particularly minorities. What happens 0:07:35.876 --> 0:07:40.716 in countries where democracy is shattered to pieces is diversity 0:07:41.156 --> 0:07:45.076 also is never appreciated. You know, I come from a 0:07:45.076 --> 0:07:49.156 country or diversity. It has never been appreciated properly. But 0:07:49.196 --> 0:07:54.116 we've completely lost our respect towards diversity. As a result, 0:07:54.516 --> 0:07:58.556 the public space becomes more and more intolerant, and then 0:07:58.636 --> 0:08:02.356 it becomes very difficult to be different. If you are 0:08:02.436 --> 0:08:05.596 different for whatever reason. This could be the color of 0:08:05.596 --> 0:08:09.356 your skin, how you look, it could be your sexual identity, 0:08:09.436 --> 0:08:12.476 it could be your political views for whatever reason. If 0:08:12.516 --> 0:08:15.916 you are deemed to be different in the eyes of 0:08:15.956 --> 0:08:18.956 the society, than your life is going to be very difficult. 0:08:19.516 --> 0:08:23.196 So I think it became more and more difficult to 0:08:23.236 --> 0:08:26.236 be the other in a country like Turkey that has 0:08:26.276 --> 0:08:29.876 been going backwards very fast. You talk a great deal 0:08:29.956 --> 0:08:32.036 about education in the first part of the novel, because 0:08:32.036 --> 0:08:35.756 the protagonist Tequila Leila, when she's a young girl, does 0:08:35.796 --> 0:08:38.996 go to school, does learn to read, unlike her her 0:08:39.036 --> 0:08:43.356 actual mother. Yet there is a moment where she rebels 0:08:43.356 --> 0:08:47.316 against education and where she says, I don't care about it. 0:08:47.436 --> 0:08:49.356 I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like I don't care 0:08:49.396 --> 0:08:52.036 about all this crap and that the word jumps off 0:08:52.076 --> 0:08:55.676 the page, and I was struck by it, and it 0:08:55.716 --> 0:08:57.996 was a very powerful moment for me because it was 0:08:58.036 --> 0:09:00.916 the moment when, you know, one could sense that education 0:09:00.996 --> 0:09:04.316 would not be liberating for this character. Yes, I'm a 0:09:04.356 --> 0:09:09.436 big believer in particularly girls education. At the same time, 0:09:09.756 --> 0:09:13.756 I want to explore this what do we mean by education, 0:09:13.876 --> 0:09:17.796 because sometimes education can be quite nationalistic, it can be 0:09:17.996 --> 0:09:22.156 very religious, particularly the context that I'm describing in the novel. 0:09:22.436 --> 0:09:25.196 She grows up in a polygamous family, so it's a 0:09:25.236 --> 0:09:28.716 family with one father and two mothers without quite knowing 0:09:28.756 --> 0:09:32.276 which one of these two women is her biological mother. 0:09:32.836 --> 0:09:36.196 And the kind of education that her father is trying 0:09:36.236 --> 0:09:41.836 to give her is extremely patriarchal and very religious. So 0:09:41.916 --> 0:09:44.276 there's a part of her that reacts to all that 0:09:44.436 --> 0:09:48.076 heritage and is longing for freedom. And that's not an 0:09:48.116 --> 0:09:52.196 easy thing because it's a society that doesn't allow that 0:09:52.276 --> 0:09:56.036 kind of behavior, particularly when you're a young girl. So 0:09:56.876 --> 0:10:00.276 I also want to show those layers. At the end 0:10:00.276 --> 0:10:03.356 of the day, I'm a big believer in books. Maybe 0:10:03.396 --> 0:10:08.356 I make a distinction between information, knowledge, and wisdom, and 0:10:08.476 --> 0:10:11.476 I think they're very different things, particularly the age we're 0:10:11.476 --> 0:10:15.716 living in. I believe we have too much information, a 0:10:15.756 --> 0:10:19.716 lot of information, let alone misinformation, and that's an obstacle 0:10:19.796 --> 0:10:23.876 in front of knowledge because knowledge requires us to slow down, 0:10:24.436 --> 0:10:29.596 and knowledge requires in depth analysis. It requires books, you know. 0:10:29.956 --> 0:10:32.396 And then there's wisdom, which is something else wholl together, 0:10:32.676 --> 0:10:35.396 and I believe that requires bringing the mind and the 0:10:35.476 --> 0:10:40.356 heart together. It requires empathy, emotional intelligence, and therefore it 0:10:40.476 --> 0:10:43.516 requires stories. So one of the questions that I ask 0:10:43.636 --> 0:10:47.156 myself is how can we change the ratio? Because we 0:10:47.276 --> 0:10:50.196 have too much information in this stage, less knowledge, and 0:10:50.276 --> 0:10:53.556 even less wisdom. How can we change that and have 0:10:54.076 --> 0:10:58.156 aim for less information, more knowledge, and much more wisdom. 0:10:58.716 --> 0:11:02.596 And that's especially challenging because sometimes the flow of information 0:11:03.156 --> 0:11:06.396 seems as though it will envelop us, and yet if 0:11:06.436 --> 0:11:10.676 we don't follow it, there's the possibility of losing the 0:11:10.756 --> 0:11:13.796 thread I mean, and therefore being unable to make the 0:11:13.876 --> 0:11:16.516 kinds of judgments that would be would be required. I mean, 0:11:16.796 --> 0:11:20.036 if one thinks of the Brexit debates or the debates 0:11:20.076 --> 0:11:24.716 over the impeachment of Donald Trump. Without the basic information, 0:11:24.716 --> 0:11:26.676 and of course the information, as you say, is contested 0:11:26.676 --> 0:11:29.596 and is met with misinformation. But without the basic information, 0:11:29.756 --> 0:11:32.316 it can become impossible to engage at all. I mean, 0:11:32.596 --> 0:11:35.316 one would like to achieve knowledge on these topics, of course, 0:11:35.556 --> 0:11:37.756 if such a thing is even possible. But they have 0:11:37.796 --> 0:11:40.276 a kind of you know, flowing like a river or feeling. 0:11:40.316 --> 0:11:42.636 And if you don't, if you don't keep drinking from 0:11:42.636 --> 0:11:44.556 the river, the river will just wash over you. Or 0:11:44.596 --> 0:11:46.876 maybe maybe the metaphors you have to just try to 0:11:46.916 --> 0:11:48.756 keep your head above the water as the river washes 0:11:48.796 --> 0:11:50.996 over you, or else you'll drown. Yeah, And I think 0:11:50.996 --> 0:11:55.076 that's a wonderful metaphor and so true. Because we cannot 0:11:55.716 --> 0:12:00.276 digest this much information, it doesn't stay with us. So 0:12:00.356 --> 0:12:03.796 all we're trying to do is just somehow management to sink. 0:12:04.596 --> 0:12:09.716 But that is not enough. So maybe this much information 0:12:09.876 --> 0:12:13.876 is really giving us the illusion that we know something 0:12:13.916 --> 0:12:17.236 about the subject. And maybe it's better if we don't 0:12:17.236 --> 0:12:19.036 know it. Just it's better to say, you know, I 0:12:19.036 --> 0:12:22.276 don't know. I'm still working on it. We forgot to 0:12:22.316 --> 0:12:24.716 say I don't know. In the stage, because if you 0:12:24.796 --> 0:12:26.996 ask me something and I don't know the answer, all 0:12:27.036 --> 0:12:28.996 I have to do is google it, and in the 0:12:28.996 --> 0:12:32.316 next five seconds or a couple of minutes, I have 0:12:32.396 --> 0:12:34.916 the illusion that I can give you an answer about 0:12:34.956 --> 0:12:37.956 that subject. But that's not knowledge. So I think we 0:12:38.036 --> 0:12:41.796 need to differentiate these things and be honest that we 0:12:41.876 --> 0:12:46.196 cannot process this much information. It doesn't stay with us. 0:12:46.756 --> 0:12:49.916 And to me, it's incredibly important. Two things to slow 0:12:49.956 --> 0:12:54.156 down because constantly we're in a hurry. And also loneliness, 0:12:54.236 --> 0:12:59.636 some kind of maybe intellectual loneliness is important because constantly 0:12:59.676 --> 0:13:02.316 we're in the company of each other. It affects us, 0:13:03.036 --> 0:13:06.716 we think in collective identities. When we are reading a novel, 0:13:07.116 --> 0:13:09.716 we are alone. Walter ban I mean he used to 0:13:09.716 --> 0:13:12.356 call the novel the loneliest form of art, and I 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:15.716 love that description. You know, the writers alone when she 0:13:15.876 --> 0:13:18.636 or he is writing, but also the readers alone when 0:13:18.836 --> 0:13:21.316 she or he is reading, and we need to go 0:13:21.356 --> 0:13:26.196 into that inner space. That solitude has a peaceful energy, 0:13:26.556 --> 0:13:30.116 and I think that's incredibly important in this fast moving 0:13:30.196 --> 0:13:35.956 age of constant information. Loneliness, the writer's loneliness, the reader's 0:13:35.956 --> 0:13:39.876 loneliness are enhanced. I think by a sense of distance. 0:13:40.676 --> 0:13:43.116 And I thought of that very much in reading your novel, 0:13:43.196 --> 0:13:46.676 because the city of Istanbul is a character in the novel, 0:13:46.716 --> 0:13:50.076 a very vibrant and rich character, and it's also a 0:13:50.156 --> 0:13:55.716 city from which you are now at some real geographical distance. 0:13:55.756 --> 0:13:58.596 And I wondered if perhaps there's an introduction to talking 0:13:58.596 --> 0:14:00.916 about that a little bit. You'd be willing to read 0:14:00.916 --> 0:14:03.676 out a passage from from your novel. It's the chapter 0:14:03.756 --> 0:14:09.996 that's called this Manic Old City. Istanbul was an illusion, 0:14:10.476 --> 0:14:14.476 a magician's trick gone wrong. Istambul was a dream that 0:14:14.596 --> 0:14:18.876 existed solely in the minds of hushish eaters. In truth, 0:14:19.156 --> 0:14:25.116 there was no Istambul. There were multiple istambules, struggling, competing, clashing, 0:14:25.556 --> 0:14:29.716 each perceiving that in the end only one could survive. 0:14:30.596 --> 0:14:34.796 There was, for instance, an ancient Estambul, designed to be 0:14:34.876 --> 0:14:39.516 crossed on foot or by boat. The city of itinerant dervishes, 0:14:39.956 --> 0:14:46.996 fortune tellers, matchmakers, seafarers, cotton fluffers, rug beaters, and porters 0:14:47.036 --> 0:14:51.276 with wicker baskets on their backs. There was modern essemble, 0:14:51.756 --> 0:14:57.236 an urban sprawl, overrun with cars and motorcycles whizzing back 0:14:57.276 --> 0:15:01.996 and forth. Construction trucks laden with building materials for more 0:15:02.036 --> 0:15:09.276 shopping centers, skyscrapers, industrial sites. Imperial istambul versus plea in 0:15:09.356 --> 0:15:17.836 Istanbul global istambul versus parochial Istanbul, cosmopolitan istambul versus philistine 0:15:17.876 --> 0:15:25.396 Istanbul heretical istambul versus pious istambul, matro istambul versus a 0:15:25.516 --> 0:15:30.996 feminine istambul that adopted aphrodite, goddess of desire and also 0:15:31.036 --> 0:15:35.436 of strife, as its symbol and protector. Then there was 0:15:35.436 --> 0:15:39.556 the Istanbul of those who had left long ago, sailing 0:15:39.676 --> 0:15:43.476 to far away ports. For them, the city would always 0:15:43.516 --> 0:15:49.316 be a metropolis made of memories, myths, and messianic longings, 0:15:49.756 --> 0:15:54.396 forever elusive, like a lover's face receding in the mist. 0:15:55.076 --> 0:16:00.196 All these istambuls lived and breathe inside one another, like 0:16:00.276 --> 0:16:05.556 Matroshka dolls that had come to life. Extraordinary. That image 0:16:05.836 --> 0:16:09.596 of the city elusive like a lover's face receding the mist, 0:16:10.476 --> 0:16:15.316 calls to my mind medieval Attoman and Persian poetry in 0:16:15.356 --> 0:16:18.356 which the lover is always just about present and then 0:16:18.356 --> 0:16:23.956 evanesces and disappears into the distance. Yeah, exactly, always illusive. Indeed, Istanbul, 0:16:23.996 --> 0:16:26.596 which is a city with which you clearly have a 0:16:26.676 --> 0:16:30.476 very deep relationship, but from which you are now at 0:16:30.516 --> 0:16:35.196 a distance. As you were writing about the city, how 0:16:35.196 --> 0:16:39.556 did you think of that that distance. I think it's emotionally, 0:16:40.476 --> 0:16:43.476 to be honest, heart for me, because I love Istanbul 0:16:43.516 --> 0:16:46.516 and I feel very attached to the city, the people, 0:16:46.636 --> 0:16:53.996 it's culture, it's history, so that that connection is very personal. Nonetheless, 0:16:54.036 --> 0:16:56.996 I think wherever I go, I feel like I carry 0:16:56.996 --> 0:17:00.716 Istanbul with me. My relationship with the city is quite emotional, 0:17:00.756 --> 0:17:02.956 of course, but at the same time, I'm someone who 0:17:02.996 --> 0:17:06.836 believes in multiple belongings. Over the years, I've become a Londoner, 0:17:07.036 --> 0:17:10.156 I've become a British citizen. And to what Teresa Made, 0:17:10.476 --> 0:17:13.556 the previous Prime Minister, has been telling us, I would 0:17:13.556 --> 0:17:15.836 like to think of myself as a citizen of the world, 0:17:16.396 --> 0:17:18.516 because she said, if you're a citizen of the world, 0:17:18.596 --> 0:17:21.116 it means you're a citizen of nowhere. I think she 0:17:21.276 --> 0:17:23.396 was wrong. If you're a citizen of the world, it 0:17:23.436 --> 0:17:26.116 doesn't mean that you have no sense of belonging, that 0:17:26.156 --> 0:17:29.516 you're floating in the air aimlessly. I think a citizen 0:17:29.556 --> 0:17:34.876 of humanity means you do care about multiple things, multiple identities, 0:17:34.956 --> 0:17:37.596 multiple belongings at the same time, so you can be 0:17:37.676 --> 0:17:40.196 very attached to a place, but at the same time 0:17:40.556 --> 0:17:44.116 very much attached to or connected with your fellow human 0:17:44.156 --> 0:17:47.556 beings all around the world. I want to defend that 0:17:47.636 --> 0:17:51.436 kind of combination of local and universal at the same time. 0:17:51.996 --> 0:17:53.716 When you were writing this novel, it was at a 0:17:53.716 --> 0:17:56.236 time in your life where you can't visit Istanable, you 0:17:56.276 --> 0:17:59.316 can't go back to Turkey. I'm wondering, for a person 0:17:59.356 --> 0:18:03.916 who embraces multiple identities as you've just described, is it 0:18:03.956 --> 0:18:06.956 possible for a citizen of the world to feel herself 0:18:06.996 --> 0:18:10.036 to be an exiled right? I mean, one cannot be 0:18:10.076 --> 0:18:12.236 truly exiled from the world, but one can be exiled 0:18:12.276 --> 0:18:15.156 from from someplace. Is that a phrase that you hear 0:18:15.196 --> 0:18:17.636 and think to yourself, that is that's not me. I'm 0:18:17.676 --> 0:18:20.476 not an exiled writer because I'm at home in many places. 0:18:20.836 --> 0:18:22.756 Where do you think to yourself, Yes, I am at 0:18:22.796 --> 0:18:24.596 the stage of my life where that might be a 0:18:24.596 --> 0:18:27.796 fair description of me. I think what you've expressed is 0:18:28.676 --> 0:18:31.516 so true, because, on the one hand, I feel like 0:18:31.556 --> 0:18:34.516 you can't be exiled from the world, or from humanity, 0:18:34.996 --> 0:18:39.236 or from storyland. Storyland is my homeland is my motherland, 0:18:39.276 --> 0:18:41.876 and I won't be exiled from there. But at the 0:18:41.916 --> 0:18:46.196 same time, of course, there's an emotional pain, and I 0:18:46.236 --> 0:18:49.636 have to be honest about that that accompanies me, because 0:18:49.676 --> 0:18:52.876 I do know that I'm not able to go at 0:18:52.916 --> 0:18:56.676 the moment. So, yes, exile is a word that I 0:18:56.756 --> 0:19:00.956 take seriously, and I do think about a lot. To 0:19:00.996 --> 0:19:03.876 be honest. This is a little bit oblique to the 0:19:03.956 --> 0:19:06.276 question of exile, but it goes back to the point 0:19:06.276 --> 0:19:09.796 that you made in describing the novel of your fascination 0:19:09.836 --> 0:19:12.956 with the scientific studies that suggests that sometimes the brain 0:19:13.036 --> 0:19:15.436 can continue to live on for some time after the 0:19:15.436 --> 0:19:18.996 body dies, or after the heart dies at least. Yeah, 0:19:19.116 --> 0:19:21.276 as I read the novel, I kept thinking to myself, 0:19:22.276 --> 0:19:25.276 as a matter of genre, is this a novel of 0:19:25.316 --> 0:19:28.556 magical realism or is it a novel of realist realism. 0:19:28.716 --> 0:19:31.756 On the one hand, as you say, it's it's not 0:19:31.916 --> 0:19:34.516 the case that there couldn't be anything in the mind 0:19:34.556 --> 0:19:36.996 after the body dies. Of course, on the other hand, 0:19:37.076 --> 0:19:39.876 one could hardly communicate the details of that of that story. 0:19:40.076 --> 0:19:43.196 So there's something magical in that sense about it. And 0:19:43.196 --> 0:19:45.356 although it's not the kind of magical realist novel in 0:19:45.396 --> 0:19:48.756 which you know, trees begin to cry in the kind 0:19:48.796 --> 0:19:52.676 of classic Marquez sort of mold. It is a novel 0:19:53.116 --> 0:19:55.956 which shares, at least it seemed to this reader some 0:19:56.076 --> 0:20:03.876 rhythms and some connections with the great tradition of magical realism. Yes, 0:20:03.956 --> 0:20:07.756 I understand, and I think the reason why I hesitate 0:20:07.836 --> 0:20:12.876 slightly is because in my mind, I don't make these distinctions. 0:20:13.436 --> 0:20:17.916 You know, I don't believe in categories. I don't even 0:20:17.956 --> 0:20:21.196 know how to categorize or explain my own work, and 0:20:21.356 --> 0:20:23.716 I feel more free when I don't put it in 0:20:23.756 --> 0:20:26.836 a certain genre. So maybe there's a part of me 0:20:26.916 --> 0:20:30.476 that resists that. But that said, of course, I the 0:20:30.476 --> 0:20:33.476 writer's privilege. For certain, it's the writer's privilege to reject 0:20:33.756 --> 0:20:36.956 being boxed into any genre. Naturally, we try, you know. 0:20:37.596 --> 0:20:41.596 But what you said made me remember maybe a moment 0:20:41.716 --> 0:20:45.276 in time when I was in my grandmother's house in Ankara. 0:20:45.436 --> 0:20:48.876 This was a very patriarchal, very conservative neighborhood, and I'm 0:20:48.916 --> 0:20:52.156 talking about late nineteen seventies. This was a time of 0:20:52.236 --> 0:20:55.676 extreme political violence in Turkey. And there is a moment 0:20:55.676 --> 0:20:58.636 when I remember I was sitting by the window and 0:20:58.956 --> 0:21:02.596 thinking about the world outside the window, which was full 0:21:02.596 --> 0:21:07.756 of political clashes, bombs exploding, students were being gone down 0:21:08.316 --> 0:21:12.396 every day, people would die on the streets and inside 0:21:12.396 --> 0:21:15.516 the house. In my grandmother's house, it was somehow full 0:21:15.556 --> 0:21:18.636 of you know, maybe you call it superstitions. It was 0:21:18.676 --> 0:21:23.036 a very irrational world. And she would melt lead, she 0:21:23.116 --> 0:21:26.876 had her own coffee cup reading, she would have her 0:21:27.076 --> 0:21:31.036 magic charms towards of the evil spirits, and people would 0:21:31.036 --> 0:21:32.956 come to her, and in a way, she was a 0:21:32.956 --> 0:21:36.036 bit like an oral storyteller. Maybe there's a part of 0:21:36.076 --> 0:21:39.876 me that remembers that moment, you know, that wants to 0:21:39.876 --> 0:21:43.436 be able to write about what's happening outside the window 0:21:43.876 --> 0:21:48.556 and therefore ask political questions about the world we're living 0:21:48.596 --> 0:21:52.396 in and in its inequalities and injustices. But at the 0:21:52.436 --> 0:21:54.556 same time, there's also a part of me that is 0:21:54.596 --> 0:21:58.476 still tuned into that world that I found inside the house, 0:21:59.036 --> 0:22:02.876 which is maybe magical or superstitious or spiritual, whatever we 0:22:02.916 --> 0:22:06.036 call it, but definitely a very irrational world. I have 0:22:06.156 --> 0:22:11.036 never looked down upon oral culture, women's culture. And the 0:22:11.076 --> 0:22:14.116 reason why I'm saying this is because in Turkey usually 0:22:14.556 --> 0:22:19.716 intellectuals do not respect that area much because it's regarded 0:22:19.756 --> 0:22:23.996 as the domain of ignorant women. But either because of 0:22:24.076 --> 0:22:27.916 my own upbringing or my personality, I've always been interested 0:22:27.916 --> 0:22:30.196 in that world as much as I've been interested in 0:22:30.236 --> 0:22:34.476 academia and knowledge and the intellect. So maybe there's a 0:22:34.516 --> 0:22:39.356 part of me that wants to bridge written culture with 0:22:39.596 --> 0:22:45.956 oral culture in some way. Your protagonist, Tequila Leila, could 0:22:45.996 --> 0:22:50.196 not be more different from you. She's isolated, and she 0:22:50.356 --> 0:22:55.316 is repressed, and she is she's impoverished, she's unable to 0:22:55.436 --> 0:22:59.516 move and be global. She's stuck on many, many dimensions. 0:23:00.356 --> 0:23:05.396 But in another way, she's also the victim of concerted 0:23:05.436 --> 0:23:09.476 efforts really throughout her life to marginalize her and to 0:23:09.516 --> 0:23:13.836 criticize her, and to deny her her capacity to genuinely 0:23:13.836 --> 0:23:17.596 express herself. And I wondered writing this novel at a 0:23:17.636 --> 0:23:21.116 time where, for what looked from the outside like essentially 0:23:21.156 --> 0:23:25.436 political reasons, criticism from nationalists, you are unable to be 0:23:25.516 --> 0:23:30.876 in Turkey, whether you have some identification with the protagonist 0:23:31.316 --> 0:23:35.156 on that dimension, in the sense of being targeted and 0:23:35.716 --> 0:23:40.196 unfairly on the false with the false idea that somehow 0:23:40.556 --> 0:23:43.316 your truths are things that the public can't bear to 0:23:43.396 --> 0:23:48.516 hear or can't tolerate hearing. I think this feeling of 0:23:48.876 --> 0:23:54.716 being the other, if you will, that's something that I 0:23:55.076 --> 0:23:59.236 unfamiliar with, and I've felt like the other myself for 0:23:59.356 --> 0:24:03.276 different reasons throughout my life, and I think I always 0:24:03.356 --> 0:24:06.636 feel closer to people who've been pushed to the periphery, 0:24:06.716 --> 0:24:10.476 to the margins. It comes naturally to me, and maybe 0:24:10.476 --> 0:24:13.356 it's visible in all my work. One of the things 0:24:13.396 --> 0:24:15.916 that happened over the years is, you know, when I 0:24:15.956 --> 0:24:19.036 wrote the story of an Armenian family, people said, oh, 0:24:19.076 --> 0:24:21.836 she must be an Armenian herself. And then if there's 0:24:21.836 --> 0:24:25.916 a Jewish character in my books, they said, oh, she's 0:24:25.956 --> 0:24:28.756 a secret Jew, because in Turkey we have this. It's 0:24:28.796 --> 0:24:32.116 a country of in many ways, conspiracy theories unfortunately, so 0:24:32.156 --> 0:24:34.716 everything has to be secret, right, And then they said, oh, 0:24:34.716 --> 0:24:38.036 she's a secret Kurd, She's a secret this. But the 0:24:38.236 --> 0:24:42.596 underlying message is if it's not your story, why would 0:24:42.596 --> 0:24:45.316 you write it? You know, if you're an Armenian yourself, 0:24:45.316 --> 0:24:49.556 why would you care? Why would you write about Armenians? 0:24:49.596 --> 0:24:52.956 And that's the mentality that I want to challenge. Of course, 0:24:52.996 --> 0:24:55.196 at the end of the day, everything that we write 0:24:55.236 --> 0:25:00.316 as novelists. They have autobiographical echoes, certainly, But the reason 0:25:00.356 --> 0:25:03.556 why I love literature so much is because I can 0:25:03.676 --> 0:25:06.996 be anyone. You can't be anyone. You know, there's freedom. 0:25:07.236 --> 0:25:09.676