1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:22,716 --> 00:00:25,876 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:26,316 --> 00:00:30,116 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Today we speak to a globally best 4 00:00:30,156 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 1: selling novelist who has a special knack for angering the 5 00:00:33,956 --> 00:00:38,036 Speaker 1: Turkish government. Her name is Elif Shafak. In two thousand 6 00:00:38,036 --> 00:00:40,076 Speaker 1: and six, at the height of her fame, she was 7 00:00:40,196 --> 00:00:43,596 Speaker 1: charged with insulting Turkishness because one of the characters in 8 00:00:43,636 --> 00:00:46,796 Speaker 1: her novel The Bastard of Istanbul, referred to the murder 9 00:00:46,836 --> 00:00:50,356 Speaker 1: of Armenians during World War One as a genocide. That 10 00:00:50,436 --> 00:00:55,556 Speaker 1: case was eventually dismissed, but last year Turkish authorities began 11 00:00:55,636 --> 00:00:58,156 Speaker 1: a new investigation into her past work for what they 12 00:00:58,156 --> 00:01:02,196 Speaker 1: called quote crimes of obscenity. One thing that the Turkish 13 00:01:02,196 --> 00:01:04,636 Speaker 1: authorities have not been able to do, however, is to 14 00:01:04,716 --> 00:01:07,876 Speaker 1: keep Turkish readers and readers all over the world from 15 00:01:07,956 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 1: devouring Elif's books. The government also hasn't been able to 16 00:01:11,756 --> 00:01:14,476 Speaker 1: keep critics around the world from praising Eliaf's books either. 17 00:01:15,316 --> 00:01:18,356 Speaker 1: Her most recent novel, Ten Minutes thirty eight Seconds in 18 00:01:18,356 --> 00:01:22,396 Speaker 1: This Strange World was shortlisted for the twenty nineteen Booker Prize. 19 00:01:23,036 --> 00:01:26,036 Speaker 1: The novel is about a prostitute named to Quila Leila, 20 00:01:26,556 --> 00:01:29,596 Speaker 1: and it begins at the end of her story with 21 00:01:29,636 --> 00:01:33,116 Speaker 1: her body found in a dumpster. A Leif joined me 22 00:01:33,156 --> 00:01:35,916 Speaker 1: from London, where she now lives, to talk to me 23 00:01:35,996 --> 00:01:40,076 Speaker 1: about that new book and much more. Let me begin 24 00:01:40,116 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 1: by asking a little bit about your process of writing. 25 00:01:44,916 --> 00:01:48,116 Speaker 1: This is your eleventh novel, and you did something rather 26 00:01:48,196 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 1: extraordinary and among writers, which is that you wrote many 27 00:01:51,596 --> 00:01:55,196 Speaker 1: of your first novels in Turkish, your first language, and 28 00:01:55,276 --> 00:01:58,716 Speaker 1: then you switched to writing in English. And as I 29 00:01:58,756 --> 00:02:00,516 Speaker 1: was thinking about it, I thought, that's even harder than 30 00:02:00,556 --> 00:02:03,476 Speaker 1: what Joseph Conrad did, because he, of course spoke Polish 31 00:02:03,476 --> 00:02:04,796 Speaker 1: as his first language, and then he started but when 32 00:02:04,796 --> 00:02:07,076 Speaker 1: he started writing novels, he started writting them in English. 33 00:02:07,236 --> 00:02:10,716 Speaker 1: What you have done is more like what Nabokov did, 34 00:02:10,996 --> 00:02:14,276 Speaker 1: writing many of his novels first in Russian and then 35 00:02:14,356 --> 00:02:18,796 Speaker 1: turning to writing novels in English. What moved you to 36 00:02:18,836 --> 00:02:20,676 Speaker 1: make that transition? And then I'd love to hear about 37 00:02:20,676 --> 00:02:23,116 Speaker 1: some of the challenges and gifts that derive from that. 38 00:02:24,076 --> 00:02:27,396 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. It is a challenge, and the master 39 00:02:27,516 --> 00:02:29,956 Speaker 1: want to be honest, because I did not grow up 40 00:02:29,996 --> 00:02:34,276 Speaker 1: in a bilingual environment, and I started learning English at 41 00:02:34,316 --> 00:02:38,996 Speaker 1: the age of ten in Spain in Madrid, so at 42 00:02:38,996 --> 00:02:42,236 Speaker 1: the time Spanish was my second language and English became 43 00:02:42,316 --> 00:02:45,836 Speaker 1: my third. Turkish is my mother tongue, and of course, 44 00:02:45,956 --> 00:02:48,996 Speaker 1: to me, English is an acquired language, which means I'm 45 00:02:49,036 --> 00:02:53,276 Speaker 1: an outsider in this language, and I'm an immigrant, you know, 46 00:02:53,356 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 1: a latecomer. And I think, like all immigrants know, there's 47 00:02:57,196 --> 00:03:01,516 Speaker 1: always a gap between the mind and the tongue. When 48 00:03:01,516 --> 00:03:04,756 Speaker 1: you're an immigrant, you always try to say more, but 49 00:03:04,876 --> 00:03:07,036 Speaker 1: in a way you end up saying less. Maybe you 50 00:03:07,036 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 1: want to crack better jokes, but there's always is a gap. 51 00:03:10,396 --> 00:03:13,796 Speaker 1: And I think that gap can be quite intimidating. But 52 00:03:13,876 --> 00:03:16,476 Speaker 1: if we learn not to be intimidated by that, I 53 00:03:16,516 --> 00:03:20,036 Speaker 1: think it can also be very inspiring. In a nutshell, 54 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:24,636 Speaker 1: I think I'm someone who loves languages plural. I love letters. 55 00:03:25,036 --> 00:03:27,796 Speaker 1: To me, it's almost magical, the very fact that with 56 00:03:27,836 --> 00:03:31,796 Speaker 1: a very limited number of letters we can create endless meanings. 57 00:03:32,236 --> 00:03:35,396 Speaker 1: I love that. I adore that I wrote my earlier 58 00:03:35,436 --> 00:03:38,636 Speaker 1: novels all in Turkish first, and then about fifteen years 59 00:03:38,636 --> 00:03:42,396 Speaker 1: ago now I switched to writing in English first, and 60 00:03:42,516 --> 00:03:45,836 Speaker 1: at the time in Turkey there was a big backlash. 61 00:03:46,236 --> 00:03:50,236 Speaker 1: People criticize me a lot, especially nationalists, saying she now 62 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:54,076 Speaker 1: cannot be a Turkish author because you know, they accuse 63 00:03:54,156 --> 00:03:57,516 Speaker 1: me of practically abundaning my mother tongue. And I think 64 00:03:57,516 --> 00:04:00,916 Speaker 1: that's one of the many problems with nationalism. It's always 65 00:04:00,916 --> 00:04:04,196 Speaker 1: an either or thing for them, Whereas I believe you 66 00:04:04,276 --> 00:04:07,036 Speaker 1: can if you can dream in more than one language, 67 00:04:07,116 --> 00:04:10,156 Speaker 1: you can write fiction more than one language. So all 68 00:04:10,196 --> 00:04:12,956 Speaker 1: I can say over the years is that I found 69 00:04:13,716 --> 00:04:18,236 Speaker 1: the possibility of writing in another language freeing. To me. 70 00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:22,076 Speaker 1: It's freedom, and I needed that. Writing in Turkish can 71 00:04:22,116 --> 00:04:25,516 Speaker 1: be quite heavy, and I needed a bit of cognitive distance. 72 00:04:25,836 --> 00:04:29,116 Speaker 1: Writing in English gave me that sense of freedom overall. 73 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:34,196 Speaker 1: If my writing has melancholy, sadness, longing, and sorrow, I 74 00:04:34,236 --> 00:04:37,156 Speaker 1: find these things much easier to express in Turkish. But 75 00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:40,716 Speaker 1: when it comes to humor and irony and maybe satire, 76 00:04:41,036 --> 00:04:44,756 Speaker 1: I find these things much easier in English. Well, this 77 00:04:44,876 --> 00:04:48,236 Speaker 1: new novel has both. It has melancholy and it has longing, 78 00:04:48,556 --> 00:04:51,916 Speaker 1: and it has humor and satire. And it strikes me 79 00:04:51,956 --> 00:04:54,436 Speaker 1: that it must have been particularly challenging to write a novel, 80 00:04:54,796 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 1: all of the action of which takes place in Turkey, 81 00:04:57,716 --> 00:05:02,036 Speaker 1: in Turkish, in the English language. In other words, there 82 00:05:02,116 --> 00:05:05,076 Speaker 1: must have been some degree of internal thought of translation 83 00:05:05,116 --> 00:05:07,756 Speaker 1: on your part as you imagined what your characters might 84 00:05:07,796 --> 00:05:10,916 Speaker 1: have said. Since you know the characters, presumably in your imagination, 85 00:05:10,956 --> 00:05:14,316 Speaker 1: we're saying these words originally in Turkish. All the things 86 00:05:14,396 --> 00:05:17,076 Speaker 1: I do not translate in my head, because for me, 87 00:05:17,236 --> 00:05:19,996 Speaker 1: language is a bit like a zone, you know, a 88 00:05:19,996 --> 00:05:23,796 Speaker 1: different zone space I enter in, and so when I 89 00:05:23,836 --> 00:05:26,596 Speaker 1: am in that space, I'm in that space. I do 90 00:05:26,716 --> 00:05:30,636 Speaker 1: not translate in my head, which doesn't mean I don't 91 00:05:30,676 --> 00:05:34,356 Speaker 1: make mistakes. I will always make mistakes or mispronounced words, 92 00:05:34,396 --> 00:05:37,156 Speaker 1: but I'm in that space, and to me, that's very 93 00:05:37,156 --> 00:05:41,476 Speaker 1: important to follow the flow, the rhythm of that language. 94 00:05:41,676 --> 00:05:44,516 Speaker 1: And in a way, maybe when I'm a little bit 95 00:05:44,556 --> 00:05:48,556 Speaker 1: distant from the Turkish language, maybe I can take a 96 00:05:48,596 --> 00:05:52,276 Speaker 1: closer look at my motherland. It's a bit like if 97 00:05:52,316 --> 00:05:54,756 Speaker 1: when you want to see a painting better, you don't 98 00:05:54,796 --> 00:05:57,316 Speaker 1: get nearer, you just sometimes need to take a step back. 99 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:02,156 Speaker 1: And that space in between, that cognitive distance or linguistic distance, 100 00:06:02,196 --> 00:06:05,436 Speaker 1: if you will, I found it in a paradoxical way, 101 00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:09,556 Speaker 1: maybe it brings me closer to Turkey. In fact, I 102 00:06:09,556 --> 00:06:12,156 Speaker 1: want to ask you a little bit about national allegory. 103 00:06:12,756 --> 00:06:15,076 Speaker 1: There are moments reading the novel when I thought of, 104 00:06:15,756 --> 00:06:22,196 Speaker 1: you know, the protagonist's father's gradual move towards greater religious observance, 105 00:06:22,796 --> 00:06:26,916 Speaker 1: and the components of hypocrisy that the novel draws attention 106 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:29,796 Speaker 1: to in that in that process where I wondered if 107 00:06:29,836 --> 00:06:33,716 Speaker 1: those could be read as engage with or in criticism 108 00:06:33,796 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 1: of changes and developments that have taken place in Turkey 109 00:06:36,836 --> 00:06:40,476 Speaker 1: in recent decades. I think that's correct, because what we've 110 00:06:40,516 --> 00:06:45,516 Speaker 1: seen in Turkey is a slide backwards, first a gradual one, 111 00:06:46,036 --> 00:06:50,036 Speaker 1: and then speeding up, I think, with a bewildering speed. 112 00:06:50,036 --> 00:06:53,796 Speaker 1: We've seen a decline. By that, I mean as we've 113 00:06:53,836 --> 00:07:01,316 Speaker 1: lost democracy, we've also seen a rise in nationalism, religiosity definitely, 114 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:07,956 Speaker 1: fundamentalism of all kinds, authoritarianism certainly. But when these things happen, 115 00:07:08,076 --> 00:07:11,196 Speaker 1: I think women need to be more worried because alongside 116 00:07:11,196 --> 00:07:14,396 Speaker 1: we've seen an increase in patriarchy, we've seen an increase 117 00:07:14,516 --> 00:07:17,796 Speaker 1: in sexism, and also we've seen an increasing in homophobia 118 00:07:17,836 --> 00:07:20,796 Speaker 1: and transphobia. In my opinion, it's this is not a 119 00:07:20,836 --> 00:07:25,916 Speaker 1: coincidence because wherever we see an increasingbltranationalism. Any kind of 120 00:07:26,356 --> 00:07:29,756 Speaker 1: extremist narrative will always go hand in hand with some 121 00:07:29,836 --> 00:07:35,876 Speaker 1: kind of misogyny an intolerance towards particularly minorities. What happens 122 00:07:35,876 --> 00:07:40,716 Speaker 1: in countries where democracy is shattered to pieces is diversity 123 00:07:41,156 --> 00:07:45,076 Speaker 1: also is never appreciated. You know, I come from a 124 00:07:45,076 --> 00:07:49,156 Speaker 1: country or diversity. It has never been appreciated properly. But 125 00:07:49,196 --> 00:07:54,116 Speaker 1: we've completely lost our respect towards diversity. As a result, 126 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:58,556 Speaker 1: the public space becomes more and more intolerant, and then 127 00:07:58,636 --> 00:08:02,356 Speaker 1: it becomes very difficult to be different. If you are 128 00:08:02,436 --> 00:08:05,596 Speaker 1: different for whatever reason. This could be the color of 129 00:08:05,596 --> 00:08:09,356 Speaker 1: your skin, how you look, it could be your sexual identity, 130 00:08:09,436 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 1: it could be your political views for whatever reason. If 131 00:08:12,516 --> 00:08:15,916 Speaker 1: you are deemed to be different in the eyes of 132 00:08:15,956 --> 00:08:18,956 Speaker 1: the society, than your life is going to be very difficult. 133 00:08:19,516 --> 00:08:23,196 Speaker 1: So I think it became more and more difficult to 134 00:08:23,236 --> 00:08:26,236 Speaker 1: be the other in a country like Turkey that has 135 00:08:26,276 --> 00:08:29,876 Speaker 1: been going backwards very fast. You talk a great deal 136 00:08:29,956 --> 00:08:32,036 Speaker 1: about education in the first part of the novel, because 137 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:35,756 Speaker 1: the protagonist Tequila Leila, when she's a young girl, does 138 00:08:35,796 --> 00:08:38,996 Speaker 1: go to school, does learn to read, unlike her her 139 00:08:39,036 --> 00:08:43,356 Speaker 1: actual mother. Yet there is a moment where she rebels 140 00:08:43,356 --> 00:08:47,316 Speaker 1: against education and where she says, I don't care about it. 141 00:08:47,436 --> 00:08:49,356 Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like I don't care 142 00:08:49,396 --> 00:08:52,036 Speaker 1: about all this crap and that the word jumps off 143 00:08:52,076 --> 00:08:55,676 Speaker 1: the page, and I was struck by it, and it 144 00:08:55,716 --> 00:08:57,996 Speaker 1: was a very powerful moment for me because it was 145 00:08:58,036 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 1: the moment when, you know, one could sense that education 146 00:09:00,996 --> 00:09:04,316 Speaker 1: would not be liberating for this character. Yes, I'm a 147 00:09:04,356 --> 00:09:09,436 Speaker 1: big believer in particularly girls education. At the same time, 148 00:09:09,756 --> 00:09:13,756 Speaker 1: I want to explore this what do we mean by education, 149 00:09:13,876 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 1: because sometimes education can be quite nationalistic, it can be 150 00:09:17,996 --> 00:09:22,156 Speaker 1: very religious, particularly the context that I'm describing in the novel. 151 00:09:22,436 --> 00:09:25,196 Speaker 1: She grows up in a polygamous family, so it's a 152 00:09:25,236 --> 00:09:28,716 Speaker 1: family with one father and two mothers without quite knowing 153 00:09:28,756 --> 00:09:32,276 Speaker 1: which one of these two women is her biological mother. 154 00:09:32,836 --> 00:09:36,196 Speaker 1: And the kind of education that her father is trying 155 00:09:36,236 --> 00:09:41,836 Speaker 1: to give her is extremely patriarchal and very religious. So 156 00:09:41,916 --> 00:09:44,276 Speaker 1: there's a part of her that reacts to all that 157 00:09:44,436 --> 00:09:48,076 Speaker 1: heritage and is longing for freedom. And that's not an 158 00:09:48,116 --> 00:09:52,196 Speaker 1: easy thing because it's a society that doesn't allow that 159 00:09:52,276 --> 00:09:56,036 Speaker 1: kind of behavior, particularly when you're a young girl. So 160 00:09:56,876 --> 00:10:00,276 Speaker 1: I also want to show those layers. At the end 161 00:10:00,276 --> 00:10:03,356 Speaker 1: of the day, I'm a big believer in books. Maybe 162 00:10:03,396 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 1: I make a distinction between information, knowledge, and wisdom, and 163 00:10:08,476 --> 00:10:11,476 Speaker 1: I think they're very different things, particularly the age we're 164 00:10:11,476 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 1: living in. I believe we have too much information, a 165 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:19,716 Speaker 1: lot of information, let alone misinformation, and that's an obstacle 166 00:10:19,796 --> 00:10:23,876 Speaker 1: in front of knowledge because knowledge requires us to slow down, 167 00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:29,596 Speaker 1: and knowledge requires in depth analysis. It requires books, you know. 168 00:10:29,956 --> 00:10:32,396 Speaker 1: And then there's wisdom, which is something else wholl together, 169 00:10:32,676 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 1: and I believe that requires bringing the mind and the 170 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:40,356 Speaker 1: heart together. It requires empathy, emotional intelligence, and therefore it 171 00:10:40,476 --> 00:10:43,516 Speaker 1: requires stories. So one of the questions that I ask 172 00:10:43,636 --> 00:10:47,156 Speaker 1: myself is how can we change the ratio? Because we 173 00:10:47,276 --> 00:10:50,196 Speaker 1: have too much information in this stage, less knowledge, and 174 00:10:50,276 --> 00:10:53,556 Speaker 1: even less wisdom. How can we change that and have 175 00:10:54,076 --> 00:10:58,156 Speaker 1: aim for less information, more knowledge, and much more wisdom. 176 00:10:58,716 --> 00:11:02,596 Speaker 1: And that's especially challenging because sometimes the flow of information 177 00:11:03,156 --> 00:11:06,396 Speaker 1: seems as though it will envelop us, and yet if 178 00:11:06,436 --> 00:11:10,676 Speaker 1: we don't follow it, there's the possibility of losing the 179 00:11:10,756 --> 00:11:13,796 Speaker 1: thread I mean, and therefore being unable to make the 180 00:11:13,876 --> 00:11:16,516 Speaker 1: kinds of judgments that would be would be required. I mean, 181 00:11:16,796 --> 00:11:20,036 Speaker 1: if one thinks of the Brexit debates or the debates 182 00:11:20,076 --> 00:11:24,716 Speaker 1: over the impeachment of Donald Trump. Without the basic information, 183 00:11:24,716 --> 00:11:26,676 Speaker 1: and of course the information, as you say, is contested 184 00:11:26,676 --> 00:11:29,596 Speaker 1: and is met with misinformation. But without the basic information, 185 00:11:29,756 --> 00:11:32,316 Speaker 1: it can become impossible to engage at all. I mean, 186 00:11:32,596 --> 00:11:35,316 Speaker 1: one would like to achieve knowledge on these topics, of course, 187 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:37,756 Speaker 1: if such a thing is even possible. But they have 188 00:11:37,796 --> 00:11:40,276 Speaker 1: a kind of you know, flowing like a river or feeling. 189 00:11:40,316 --> 00:11:42,636 Speaker 1: And if you don't, if you don't keep drinking from 190 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:44,556 Speaker 1: the river, the river will just wash over you. Or 191 00:11:44,596 --> 00:11:46,876 Speaker 1: maybe maybe the metaphors you have to just try to 192 00:11:46,916 --> 00:11:48,756 Speaker 1: keep your head above the water as the river washes 193 00:11:48,796 --> 00:11:50,996 Speaker 1: over you, or else you'll drown. Yeah, And I think 194 00:11:50,996 --> 00:11:55,076 Speaker 1: that's a wonderful metaphor and so true. Because we cannot 195 00:11:55,716 --> 00:12:00,276 Speaker 1: digest this much information, it doesn't stay with us. So 196 00:12:00,356 --> 00:12:03,796 Speaker 1: all we're trying to do is just somehow management to sink. 197 00:12:04,596 --> 00:12:09,716 Speaker 1: But that is not enough. So maybe this much information 198 00:12:09,876 --> 00:12:13,876 Speaker 1: is really giving us the illusion that we know something 199 00:12:13,916 --> 00:12:17,236 Speaker 1: about the subject. And maybe it's better if we don't 200 00:12:17,236 --> 00:12:19,036 Speaker 1: know it. Just it's better to say, you know, I 201 00:12:19,036 --> 00:12:22,276 Speaker 1: don't know. I'm still working on it. We forgot to 202 00:12:22,316 --> 00:12:24,716 Speaker 1: say I don't know. In the stage, because if you 203 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:26,996 Speaker 1: ask me something and I don't know the answer, all 204 00:12:27,036 --> 00:12:28,996 Speaker 1: I have to do is google it, and in the 205 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:32,316 Speaker 1: next five seconds or a couple of minutes, I have 206 00:12:32,396 --> 00:12:34,916 Speaker 1: the illusion that I can give you an answer about 207 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:37,956 Speaker 1: that subject. But that's not knowledge. So I think we 208 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:41,796 Speaker 1: need to differentiate these things and be honest that we 209 00:12:41,876 --> 00:12:46,196 Speaker 1: cannot process this much information. It doesn't stay with us. 210 00:12:46,756 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 1: And to me, it's incredibly important. Two things to slow 211 00:12:49,956 --> 00:12:54,156 Speaker 1: down because constantly we're in a hurry. And also loneliness, 212 00:12:54,236 --> 00:12:59,636 Speaker 1: some kind of maybe intellectual loneliness is important because constantly 213 00:12:59,676 --> 00:13:02,316 Speaker 1: we're in the company of each other. It affects us, 214 00:13:03,036 --> 00:13:06,716 Speaker 1: we think in collective identities. When we are reading a novel, 215 00:13:07,116 --> 00:13:09,716 Speaker 1: we are alone. Walter ban I mean he used to 216 00:13:09,716 --> 00:13:12,356 Speaker 1: call the novel the loneliest form of art, and I 217 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:15,716 Speaker 1: love that description. You know, the writers alone when she 218 00:13:15,876 --> 00:13:18,636 Speaker 1: or he is writing, but also the readers alone when 219 00:13:18,836 --> 00:13:21,316 Speaker 1: she or he is reading, and we need to go 220 00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:26,196 Speaker 1: into that inner space. That solitude has a peaceful energy, 221 00:13:26,556 --> 00:13:30,116 Speaker 1: and I think that's incredibly important in this fast moving 222 00:13:30,196 --> 00:13:35,956 Speaker 1: age of constant information. Loneliness, the writer's loneliness, the reader's 223 00:13:35,956 --> 00:13:39,876 Speaker 1: loneliness are enhanced. I think by a sense of distance. 224 00:13:40,676 --> 00:13:43,116 Speaker 1: And I thought of that very much in reading your novel, 225 00:13:43,196 --> 00:13:46,676 Speaker 1: because the city of Istanbul is a character in the novel, 226 00:13:46,716 --> 00:13:50,076 Speaker 1: a very vibrant and rich character, and it's also a 227 00:13:50,156 --> 00:13:55,716 Speaker 1: city from which you are now at some real geographical distance. 228 00:13:55,756 --> 00:13:58,596 Speaker 1: And I wondered if perhaps there's an introduction to talking 229 00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:00,916 Speaker 1: about that a little bit. You'd be willing to read 230 00:14:00,916 --> 00:14:03,676 Speaker 1: out a passage from from your novel. It's the chapter 231 00:14:03,756 --> 00:14:09,996 Speaker 1: that's called this Manic Old City. Istanbul was an illusion, 232 00:14:10,476 --> 00:14:14,476 Speaker 1: a magician's trick gone wrong. Istambul was a dream that 233 00:14:14,596 --> 00:14:18,876 Speaker 1: existed solely in the minds of hushish eaters. In truth, 234 00:14:19,156 --> 00:14:25,116 Speaker 1: there was no Istambul. There were multiple istambules, struggling, competing, clashing, 235 00:14:25,556 --> 00:14:29,716 Speaker 1: each perceiving that in the end only one could survive. 236 00:14:30,596 --> 00:14:34,796 Speaker 1: There was, for instance, an ancient Estambul, designed to be 237 00:14:34,876 --> 00:14:39,516 Speaker 1: crossed on foot or by boat. The city of itinerant dervishes, 238 00:14:39,956 --> 00:14:46,996 Speaker 1: fortune tellers, matchmakers, seafarers, cotton fluffers, rug beaters, and porters 239 00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:51,276 Speaker 1: with wicker baskets on their backs. There was modern essemble, 240 00:14:51,756 --> 00:14:57,236 Speaker 1: an urban sprawl, overrun with cars and motorcycles whizzing back 241 00:14:57,276 --> 00:15:01,996 Speaker 1: and forth. Construction trucks laden with building materials for more 242 00:15:02,036 --> 00:15:09,276 Speaker 1: shopping centers, skyscrapers, industrial sites. Imperial istambul versus plea in 243 00:15:09,356 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 1: Istanbul global istambul versus parochial Istanbul, cosmopolitan istambul versus philistine 244 00:15:17,876 --> 00:15:25,396 Speaker 1: Istanbul heretical istambul versus pious istambul, matro istambul versus a 245 00:15:25,516 --> 00:15:30,996 Speaker 1: feminine istambul that adopted aphrodite, goddess of desire and also 246 00:15:31,036 --> 00:15:35,436 Speaker 1: of strife, as its symbol and protector. Then there was 247 00:15:35,436 --> 00:15:39,556 Speaker 1: the Istanbul of those who had left long ago, sailing 248 00:15:39,676 --> 00:15:43,476 Speaker 1: to far away ports. For them, the city would always 249 00:15:43,516 --> 00:15:49,316 Speaker 1: be a metropolis made of memories, myths, and messianic longings, 250 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:54,396 Speaker 1: forever elusive, like a lover's face receding in the mist. 251 00:15:55,076 --> 00:16:00,196 Speaker 1: All these istambuls lived and breathe inside one another, like 252 00:16:00,276 --> 00:16:05,556 Speaker 1: Matroshka dolls that had come to life. Extraordinary. That image 253 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:09,596 Speaker 1: of the city elusive like a lover's face receding the mist, 254 00:16:10,476 --> 00:16:15,316 Speaker 1: calls to my mind medieval Attoman and Persian poetry in 255 00:16:15,356 --> 00:16:18,356 Speaker 1: which the lover is always just about present and then 256 00:16:18,356 --> 00:16:23,956 Speaker 1: evanesces and disappears into the distance. Yeah, exactly, always illusive. Indeed, Istanbul, 257 00:16:23,996 --> 00:16:26,596 Speaker 1: which is a city with which you clearly have a 258 00:16:26,676 --> 00:16:30,476 Speaker 1: very deep relationship, but from which you are now at 259 00:16:30,516 --> 00:16:35,196 Speaker 1: a distance. As you were writing about the city, how 260 00:16:35,196 --> 00:16:39,556 Speaker 1: did you think of that that distance. I think it's emotionally, 261 00:16:40,476 --> 00:16:43,476 Speaker 1: to be honest, heart for me, because I love Istanbul 262 00:16:43,516 --> 00:16:46,516 Speaker 1: and I feel very attached to the city, the people, 263 00:16:46,636 --> 00:16:53,996 Speaker 1: it's culture, it's history, so that that connection is very personal. Nonetheless, 264 00:16:54,036 --> 00:16:56,996 Speaker 1: I think wherever I go, I feel like I carry 265 00:16:56,996 --> 00:17:00,716 Speaker 1: Istanbul with me. My relationship with the city is quite emotional, 266 00:17:00,756 --> 00:17:02,956 Speaker 1: of course, but at the same time, I'm someone who 267 00:17:02,996 --> 00:17:06,836 Speaker 1: believes in multiple belongings. Over the years, I've become a Londoner, 268 00:17:07,036 --> 00:17:10,156 Speaker 1: I've become a British citizen. And to what Teresa Made, 269 00:17:10,476 --> 00:17:13,556 Speaker 1: the previous Prime Minister, has been telling us, I would 270 00:17:13,556 --> 00:17:15,836 Speaker 1: like to think of myself as a citizen of the world, 271 00:17:16,396 --> 00:17:18,516 Speaker 1: because she said, if you're a citizen of the world, 272 00:17:18,596 --> 00:17:21,116 Speaker 1: it means you're a citizen of nowhere. I think she 273 00:17:21,276 --> 00:17:23,396 Speaker 1: was wrong. If you're a citizen of the world, it 274 00:17:23,436 --> 00:17:26,116 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you have no sense of belonging, that 275 00:17:26,156 --> 00:17:29,516 Speaker 1: you're floating in the air aimlessly. I think a citizen 276 00:17:29,556 --> 00:17:34,876 Speaker 1: of humanity means you do care about multiple things, multiple identities, 277 00:17:34,956 --> 00:17:37,596 Speaker 1: multiple belongings at the same time, so you can be 278 00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:40,196 Speaker 1: very attached to a place, but at the same time 279 00:17:40,556 --> 00:17:44,116 Speaker 1: very much attached to or connected with your fellow human 280 00:17:44,156 --> 00:17:47,556 Speaker 1: beings all around the world. I want to defend that 281 00:17:47,636 --> 00:17:51,436 Speaker 1: kind of combination of local and universal at the same time. 282 00:17:51,996 --> 00:17:53,716 Speaker 1: When you were writing this novel, it was at a 283 00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:56,236 Speaker 1: time in your life where you can't visit Istanable, you 284 00:17:56,276 --> 00:17:59,316 Speaker 1: can't go back to Turkey. I'm wondering, for a person 285 00:17:59,356 --> 00:18:03,916 Speaker 1: who embraces multiple identities as you've just described, is it 286 00:18:03,956 --> 00:18:06,956 Speaker 1: possible for a citizen of the world to feel herself 287 00:18:06,996 --> 00:18:10,036 Speaker 1: to be an exiled right? I mean, one cannot be 288 00:18:10,076 --> 00:18:12,236 Speaker 1: truly exiled from the world, but one can be exiled 289 00:18:12,276 --> 00:18:15,156 Speaker 1: from from someplace. Is that a phrase that you hear 290 00:18:15,196 --> 00:18:17,636 Speaker 1: and think to yourself, that is that's not me. I'm 291 00:18:17,676 --> 00:18:20,476 Speaker 1: not an exiled writer because I'm at home in many places. 292 00:18:20,836 --> 00:18:22,756 Speaker 1: Where do you think to yourself, Yes, I am at 293 00:18:22,796 --> 00:18:24,596 Speaker 1: the stage of my life where that might be a 294 00:18:24,596 --> 00:18:27,796 Speaker 1: fair description of me. I think what you've expressed is 295 00:18:28,676 --> 00:18:31,516 Speaker 1: so true, because, on the one hand, I feel like 296 00:18:31,556 --> 00:18:34,516 Speaker 1: you can't be exiled from the world, or from humanity, 297 00:18:34,996 --> 00:18:39,236 Speaker 1: or from storyland. Storyland is my homeland is my motherland, 298 00:18:39,276 --> 00:18:41,876 Speaker 1: and I won't be exiled from there. But at the 299 00:18:41,916 --> 00:18:46,196 Speaker 1: same time, of course, there's an emotional pain, and I 300 00:18:46,236 --> 00:18:49,636 Speaker 1: have to be honest about that that accompanies me, because 301 00:18:49,676 --> 00:18:52,876 Speaker 1: I do know that I'm not able to go at 302 00:18:52,916 --> 00:18:56,676 Speaker 1: the moment. So, yes, exile is a word that I 303 00:18:56,756 --> 00:19:00,956 Speaker 1: take seriously, and I do think about a lot. To 304 00:19:00,996 --> 00:19:03,876 Speaker 1: be honest. This is a little bit oblique to the 305 00:19:03,956 --> 00:19:06,276 Speaker 1: question of exile, but it goes back to the point 306 00:19:06,276 --> 00:19:09,796 Speaker 1: that you made in describing the novel of your fascination 307 00:19:09,836 --> 00:19:12,956 Speaker 1: with the scientific studies that suggests that sometimes the brain 308 00:19:13,036 --> 00:19:15,436 Speaker 1: can continue to live on for some time after the 309 00:19:15,436 --> 00:19:18,996 Speaker 1: body dies, or after the heart dies at least. Yeah, 310 00:19:19,116 --> 00:19:21,276 Speaker 1: as I read the novel, I kept thinking to myself, 311 00:19:22,276 --> 00:19:25,276 Speaker 1: as a matter of genre, is this a novel of 312 00:19:25,316 --> 00:19:28,556 Speaker 1: magical realism or is it a novel of realist realism. 313 00:19:28,716 --> 00:19:31,756 Speaker 1: On the one hand, as you say, it's it's not 314 00:19:31,916 --> 00:19:34,516 Speaker 1: the case that there couldn't be anything in the mind 315 00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:36,996 Speaker 1: after the body dies. Of course, on the other hand, 316 00:19:37,076 --> 00:19:39,876 Speaker 1: one could hardly communicate the details of that of that story. 317 00:19:40,076 --> 00:19:43,196 Speaker 1: So there's something magical in that sense about it. And 318 00:19:43,196 --> 00:19:45,356 Speaker 1: although it's not the kind of magical realist novel in 319 00:19:45,396 --> 00:19:48,756 Speaker 1: which you know, trees begin to cry in the kind 320 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 1: of classic Marquez sort of mold. It is a novel 321 00:19:53,116 --> 00:19:55,956 Speaker 1: which shares, at least it seemed to this reader some 322 00:19:56,076 --> 00:20:03,876 Speaker 1: rhythms and some connections with the great tradition of magical realism. Yes, 323 00:20:03,956 --> 00:20:07,756 Speaker 1: I understand, and I think the reason why I hesitate 324 00:20:07,836 --> 00:20:12,876 Speaker 1: slightly is because in my mind, I don't make these distinctions. 325 00:20:13,436 --> 00:20:17,916 Speaker 1: You know, I don't believe in categories. I don't even 326 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:21,196 Speaker 1: know how to categorize or explain my own work, and 327 00:20:21,356 --> 00:20:23,716 Speaker 1: I feel more free when I don't put it in 328 00:20:23,756 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 1: a certain genre. So maybe there's a part of me 329 00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:30,476 Speaker 1: that resists that. But that said, of course, I the 330 00:20:30,476 --> 00:20:33,476 Speaker 1: writer's privilege. For certain, it's the writer's privilege to reject 331 00:20:33,756 --> 00:20:36,956 Speaker 1: being boxed into any genre. Naturally, we try, you know. 332 00:20:37,596 --> 00:20:41,596 Speaker 1: But what you said made me remember maybe a moment 333 00:20:41,716 --> 00:20:45,276 Speaker 1: in time when I was in my grandmother's house in Ankara. 334 00:20:45,436 --> 00:20:48,876 Speaker 1: This was a very patriarchal, very conservative neighborhood, and I'm 335 00:20:48,916 --> 00:20:52,156 Speaker 1: talking about late nineteen seventies. This was a time of 336 00:20:52,236 --> 00:20:55,676 Speaker 1: extreme political violence in Turkey. And there is a moment 337 00:20:55,676 --> 00:20:58,636 Speaker 1: when I remember I was sitting by the window and 338 00:20:58,956 --> 00:21:02,596 Speaker 1: thinking about the world outside the window, which was full 339 00:21:02,596 --> 00:21:07,756 Speaker 1: of political clashes, bombs exploding, students were being gone down 340 00:21:08,316 --> 00:21:12,396 Speaker 1: every day, people would die on the streets and inside 341 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:15,516 Speaker 1: the house. In my grandmother's house, it was somehow full 342 00:21:15,556 --> 00:21:18,636 Speaker 1: of you know, maybe you call it superstitions. It was 343 00:21:18,676 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 1: a very irrational world. And she would melt lead, she 344 00:21:23,116 --> 00:21:26,876 Speaker 1: had her own coffee cup reading, she would have her 345 00:21:27,076 --> 00:21:31,036 Speaker 1: magic charms towards of the evil spirits, and people would 346 00:21:31,036 --> 00:21:32,956 Speaker 1: come to her, and in a way, she was a 347 00:21:32,956 --> 00:21:36,036 Speaker 1: bit like an oral storyteller. Maybe there's a part of 348 00:21:36,076 --> 00:21:39,876 Speaker 1: me that remembers that moment, you know, that wants to 349 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:43,436 Speaker 1: be able to write about what's happening outside the window 350 00:21:43,876 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 1: and therefore ask political questions about the world we're living 351 00:21:48,596 --> 00:21:52,396 Speaker 1: in and in its inequalities and injustices. But at the 352 00:21:52,436 --> 00:21:54,556 Speaker 1: same time, there's also a part of me that is 353 00:21:54,596 --> 00:21:58,476 Speaker 1: still tuned into that world that I found inside the house, 354 00:21:59,036 --> 00:22:02,876 Speaker 1: which is maybe magical or superstitious or spiritual, whatever we 355 00:22:02,916 --> 00:22:06,036 Speaker 1: call it, but definitely a very irrational world. I have 356 00:22:06,156 --> 00:22:11,036 Speaker 1: never looked down upon oral culture, women's culture. And the 357 00:22:11,076 --> 00:22:14,116 Speaker 1: reason why I'm saying this is because in Turkey usually 358 00:22:14,556 --> 00:22:19,716 Speaker 1: intellectuals do not respect that area much because it's regarded 359 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:23,996 Speaker 1: as the domain of ignorant women. But either because of 360 00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:27,916 Speaker 1: my own upbringing or my personality, I've always been interested 361 00:22:27,916 --> 00:22:30,196 Speaker 1: in that world as much as I've been interested in 362 00:22:30,236 --> 00:22:34,476 Speaker 1: academia and knowledge and the intellect. So maybe there's a 363 00:22:34,516 --> 00:22:39,356 Speaker 1: part of me that wants to bridge written culture with 364 00:22:39,596 --> 00:22:45,956 Speaker 1: oral culture in some way. Your protagonist, Tequila Leila, could 365 00:22:45,996 --> 00:22:50,196 Speaker 1: not be more different from you. She's isolated, and she 366 00:22:50,356 --> 00:22:55,316 Speaker 1: is repressed, and she is she's impoverished, she's unable to 367 00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:59,516 Speaker 1: move and be global. She's stuck on many, many dimensions. 368 00:23:00,356 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 1: But in another way, she's also the victim of concerted 369 00:23:05,436 --> 00:23:09,476 Speaker 1: efforts really throughout her life to marginalize her and to 370 00:23:09,516 --> 00:23:13,836 Speaker 1: criticize her, and to deny her her capacity to genuinely 371 00:23:13,836 --> 00:23:17,596 Speaker 1: express herself. And I wondered writing this novel at a 372 00:23:17,636 --> 00:23:21,116 Speaker 1: time where, for what looked from the outside like essentially 373 00:23:21,156 --> 00:23:25,436 Speaker 1: political reasons, criticism from nationalists, you are unable to be 374 00:23:25,516 --> 00:23:30,876 Speaker 1: in Turkey, whether you have some identification with the protagonist 375 00:23:31,316 --> 00:23:35,156 Speaker 1: on that dimension, in the sense of being targeted and 376 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:40,196 Speaker 1: unfairly on the false with the false idea that somehow 377 00:23:40,556 --> 00:23:43,316 Speaker 1: your truths are things that the public can't bear to 378 00:23:43,396 --> 00:23:48,516 Speaker 1: hear or can't tolerate hearing. I think this feeling of 379 00:23:48,876 --> 00:23:54,716 Speaker 1: being the other, if you will, that's something that I 380 00:23:55,076 --> 00:23:59,236 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with, and I've felt like the other myself for 381 00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:03,276 Speaker 1: different reasons throughout my life, and I think I always 382 00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:06,636 Speaker 1: feel closer to people who've been pushed to the periphery, 383 00:24:06,716 --> 00:24:10,476 Speaker 1: to the margins. It comes naturally to me, and maybe 384 00:24:10,476 --> 00:24:13,356 Speaker 1: it's visible in all my work. One of the things 385 00:24:13,396 --> 00:24:15,916 Speaker 1: that happened over the years is, you know, when I 386 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:19,036 Speaker 1: wrote the story of an Armenian family, people said, oh, 387 00:24:19,076 --> 00:24:21,836 Speaker 1: she must be an Armenian herself. And then if there's 388 00:24:21,836 --> 00:24:25,916 Speaker 1: a Jewish character in my books, they said, oh, she's 389 00:24:25,956 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 1: a secret Jew, because in Turkey we have this. It's 390 00:24:28,796 --> 00:24:32,116 Speaker 1: a country of in many ways, conspiracy theories unfortunately, so 391 00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:34,716 Speaker 1: everything has to be secret, right, And then they said, oh, 392 00:24:34,716 --> 00:24:38,036 Speaker 1: she's a secret Kurd, She's a secret this. But the 393 00:24:38,236 --> 00:24:42,596 Speaker 1: underlying message is if it's not your story, why would 394 00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:45,316 Speaker 1: you write it? You know, if you're an Armenian yourself, 395 00:24:45,316 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 1: why would you care? Why would you write about Armenians? 396 00:24:49,596 --> 00:24:52,956 Speaker 1: And that's the mentality that I want to challenge. Of course, 397 00:24:52,996 --> 00:24:55,196 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, everything that we write 398 00:24:55,236 --> 00:25:00,316 Speaker 1: as novelists. They have autobiographical echoes, certainly, But the reason 399 00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:03,556 Speaker 1: why I love literature so much is because I can 400 00:25:03,676 --> 00:25:06,996 Speaker 1: be anyone. You can't be anyone. You know, there's freedom. 401 00:25:07,236 --> 00:25:09,676 Speaker 1: As long as you feel it in your heart and 402 00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:13,316 Speaker 1: follow the story and really put effort in it, we 403 00:25:13,396 --> 00:25:17,036 Speaker 1: can write anything and everything. I leave Shafak, thank you. 404 00:25:17,156 --> 00:25:19,556 Speaker 1: I will look forward to learning more from you in 405 00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:22,196 Speaker 1: the future, and I imagine that I'm joined by many 406 00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:24,356 Speaker 1: others in that respect. Thank you so much for the conversation. 407 00:25:24,716 --> 00:25:33,876 Speaker 1: I appreciate it so much. Thank you. The name of a. 408 00:25:33,956 --> 00:25:37,516 Speaker 1: Leif Shafak's latest novel is ten minutes, thirty eight seconds 409 00:25:37,556 --> 00:25:40,316 Speaker 1: In This Strange World. We'll be back with this week's 410 00:25:40,316 --> 00:25:45,796 Speaker 1: playback in just a moment. Now for our playback, John Dunning, 411 00:25:47,276 --> 00:25:55,756 Speaker 1: Miriam Haley, Jessica Man, Annabella Shora, Charole Wolf, Lauren Young, 412 00:25:56,996 --> 00:26:02,996 Speaker 1: Meghan Hast, Joan Bluzi Orbone. Eight women who have changed 413 00:26:03,036 --> 00:26:06,796 Speaker 1: the course of history in the fight against sexual violence. 414 00:26:07,836 --> 00:26:11,516 Speaker 1: That's Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vans Junior, whose office prosecuted 415 00:26:11,556 --> 00:26:14,596 Speaker 1: the case against tarwe Weinstein, speaking at a press conference 416 00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:18,636 Speaker 1: right after the verdict was announced. If you heard that verdict. Briefly, 417 00:26:18,956 --> 00:26:20,876 Speaker 1: you might have been a little bit confused because it 418 00:26:20,956 --> 00:26:24,476 Speaker 1: sounds like it was a split verdict. On the one hand, 419 00:26:24,636 --> 00:26:27,716 Speaker 1: Weinstein was convicted of two charges of rape, and those 420 00:26:27,716 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 1: were the primary charges against him. Yet it's also true 421 00:26:30,716 --> 00:26:34,516 Speaker 1: that Weinstein was acquitted on three other charges, including two 422 00:26:34,516 --> 00:26:36,996 Speaker 1: of the most serious charges against him, charges that he 423 00:26:37,036 --> 00:26:40,156 Speaker 1: was a sexual predator. After all, you might say to yourself, 424 00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:43,556 Speaker 1: Weinstein obviously was a sexual predator, So maybe this isn't 425 00:26:43,596 --> 00:26:46,156 Speaker 1: really that much of a win for the prosecutors or 426 00:26:46,196 --> 00:26:49,076 Speaker 1: for the me too movement. Well, the honest truth is, 427 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:51,996 Speaker 1: if you go behind the scenes of this case and 428 00:26:52,076 --> 00:26:54,956 Speaker 1: look at the prosecutor strategy, you'll see that it was 429 00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:58,996 Speaker 1: a win for the prosecutors even though Weinstein was cleared 430 00:26:59,116 --> 00:27:02,836 Speaker 1: of two of the most serious charges. And here's why. Ordinarily, 431 00:27:02,836 --> 00:27:05,876 Speaker 1: in a criminal case, we do not allow evidence to 432 00:27:05,876 --> 00:27:09,916 Speaker 1: be introduced of any bad acts that the defendant committed 433 00:27:10,276 --> 00:27:14,396 Speaker 1: outside of the context of the specific charges brought against him. 434 00:27:14,796 --> 00:27:16,636 Speaker 1: And there's a reason for that. We don't want to 435 00:27:16,756 --> 00:27:19,556 Speaker 1: raise to convict people because they think they're just lousy, 436 00:27:19,876 --> 00:27:22,356 Speaker 1: or because we think they're bad on general principles, or 437 00:27:22,396 --> 00:27:24,636 Speaker 1: because they think that they're guilty of some other conduct 438 00:27:24,876 --> 00:27:27,916 Speaker 1: other than conduct with which they are literally being charged. 439 00:27:28,596 --> 00:27:32,196 Speaker 1: But there are exceptions. One is, if the prosecutors can 440 00:27:32,236 --> 00:27:35,396 Speaker 1: introduce a pattern of prior conduct, they can get other 441 00:27:35,516 --> 00:27:39,276 Speaker 1: bad acts admitted that happened actually in the Weinstein trial, 442 00:27:39,396 --> 00:27:42,196 Speaker 1: and it's one of the reasons that several other witnesses 443 00:27:42,276 --> 00:27:44,956 Speaker 1: three whose names have not been made public were introduced 444 00:27:45,076 --> 00:27:47,676 Speaker 1: in order to testify to other bad acts of Weinstein's. 445 00:27:48,356 --> 00:27:53,156 Speaker 1: But another way for prosecutors to introduce prior evidence of 446 00:27:53,236 --> 00:27:55,996 Speaker 1: bad action in a criminal trial in the New York 447 00:27:56,036 --> 00:27:59,956 Speaker 1: States system is to charge the defendant with being a 448 00:27:59,996 --> 00:28:04,836 Speaker 1: sexual predator, and that charge is what allowed the prosecution 449 00:28:05,116 --> 00:28:09,556 Speaker 1: to introduce the testimony of the actress Annabelle Ashura, who 450 00:28:09,596 --> 00:28:13,036 Speaker 1: testified that more than twenty five years ago, Harvey Weinstein 451 00:28:13,316 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 1: raped her. Now, on the surface, the fact that Weinstein 452 00:28:16,916 --> 00:28:19,356 Speaker 1: was not convicted of being a sexual predator might make 453 00:28:19,396 --> 00:28:22,676 Speaker 1: you think that the jury didn't believe Shura. That's not 454 00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:27,076 Speaker 1: necessarily the case. It's entirely possible that the jury believed 455 00:28:27,076 --> 00:28:30,356 Speaker 1: her but thought there wasn't beyond a reasonable doubt evidence 456 00:28:30,396 --> 00:28:33,756 Speaker 1: of that charge, and that as a consequence, it strengthened 457 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,636 Speaker 1: their judgment that Weinstein was in fact guilty of the 458 00:28:36,716 --> 00:28:40,716 Speaker 1: basic rapes with which he was charged. That's especially probable 459 00:28:40,956 --> 00:28:44,956 Speaker 1: because those rapes involved situations in which it's often very 460 00:28:44,996 --> 00:28:49,396 Speaker 1: difficult for prosecutors to get convictions, namely, no physical evidence 461 00:28:49,636 --> 00:28:54,436 Speaker 1: and an ongoing professional, social, and even sexual relationship between 462 00:28:54,436 --> 00:28:58,196 Speaker 1: the perpetrator and the victims after the crimes alleged, at 463 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:03,476 Speaker 1: least according to Weinstein's lawyers. Furthermore, to the extent the 464 00:29:03,556 --> 00:29:06,956 Speaker 1: jury may actually have been engaged in an internal compromise, 465 00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:10,076 Speaker 1: The fact that there were more serious charges that it 466 00:29:10,156 --> 00:29:13,076 Speaker 1: could choose not to find Weinstein guilty of may have 467 00:29:13,156 --> 00:29:17,156 Speaker 1: actually driven the jury in the direction of finding Weinstein 468 00:29:17,196 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 1: guilty on the underlying charges of rape. Of course, we 469 00:29:22,076 --> 00:29:24,716 Speaker 1: don't like to think the juries are horse training behind 470 00:29:24,716 --> 00:29:27,916 Speaker 1: the scenes, but we understand that in reality they sometimes are. 471 00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:31,076 Speaker 1: So that's another reason to think that the prosecutor's decision 472 00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:34,996 Speaker 1: to introduce the charge against Weinstein of being a sexual 473 00:29:34,996 --> 00:29:40,276 Speaker 1: predator actually contributed to his eventual conviction on the underlying 474 00:29:40,396 --> 00:29:45,036 Speaker 1: rape charges, notwithstanding his acquittal on the sexual predation charges. 475 00:29:46,036 --> 00:29:48,396 Speaker 1: The upshot here is at the legal system as like 476 00:29:48,436 --> 00:29:51,196 Speaker 1: a lot of other complicated systems in the world. Sometimes 477 00:29:51,236 --> 00:29:53,356 Speaker 1: to understand what's really going on, you've got to get 478 00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:57,196 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. Deep Background is brought to you by 479 00:29:57,236 --> 00:30:01,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia gene Coott, with studio 480 00:30:01,236 --> 00:30:04,556 Speaker 1: recording by Joseph Fridman and mastering by Jason Gambrel and 481 00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:08,956 Speaker 1: Jason Roskowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbn. Our theme music 482 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:12,796 Speaker 1: composed by Luis Garat special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, 483 00:30:12,796 --> 00:30:16,956 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weissberg, and Mia Lobel. I'm Noah Feldman. 484 00:30:17,196 --> 00:30:20,236 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. 485 00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:22,116 Speaker 1: This is Deep Background