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This offer ends January thirty first. 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World, in the middle of 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 1: April two thousand and seventh, a short, bald and burly 18 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: man with a limp and a cane walked into the 19 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: west wing of the White House. He carried a small 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: briefcase with a few folders chaotically jutting out. The man 21 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 1: showed his diplomatic passport. At the entrance, he was under 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: the impression that he would be brought directly to the 23 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: Oval Office for a private meeting with the President, but 24 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: instead the guards were under orders to keep his name 25 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: off the official visitor logs and to clandestinely escort him 26 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: to the office of National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley. Inside, 27 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: two other men were waiting, Hadley's deputy, Elliot Abrams, and 28 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: a surprise guest, the Vice President of the United States, 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: Dick Cheney. The man the trio had gathered to meet 30 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: was Meher Doggin, the renowned and feared head of the Mossad, 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: Israel's legendary foreign spy agency and the equivalent of the CIA. 32 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: A few days la, Prime Minister Ehod Olmert had called 33 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: President George by Bush and told him the Doggin would 34 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: be coming to Washington with some important information. I'd appreciate 35 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: if you could meet him, Olmert told Bush. The request, 36 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: phrased in a way that seemed urgent, took Bush and 37 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: his staff by surprise. Heads of state, even close allies 38 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: like Olmbert, don't usually ask the president to meet the 39 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: directors of their intelligence agencies alone. If they ever do 40 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: meet them, it is almost always according to diplomatic protocol 41 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: and in the presence of the foreign leader. So the 42 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: President's aides decided to stick to protocol. They would first 43 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: meet with Doggin, evaluate whatever information he was bringing with him, 44 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: and if needed, take him to see the President. Cheney 45 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: was briefed about the pending visit and decided to sit 46 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: in on the meeting. He knew Doggin and figured that, 47 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: based on Olmert's special request, it must be urgent. Doggin 48 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: took a seat on the couch. Cheney settled into a 49 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: large blue winged chair to his right. Now one for 50 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: small talk. Doggin got straight to the point, Syria is 51 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: building a nuclear reactor. The Massad chief said, this is 52 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: the beginning of Yakov Kat's new book, Shadows Strike, inside 53 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: Israel's secret mission to eliminate Syrian nuclear power. Yakov Kat's 54 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: is the editor in chief of the Jerusalem Post. I 55 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: am pleased to have him as my guest to day. 56 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: There are parts this book that about people I know personally, 57 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: and you capture them in such a way. I'm astounded 58 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: by how you put it all together. So let me 59 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: start by asking you if you would start at the beginning. 60 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: Were you do with the book in Vienna, and before that, 61 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: the impact of the Libyan announcement of a nuclear weapons program, 62 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: which the Israelis did not realize existed. The story really 63 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: begins with a suspicion that something nuclear was happening in Syria, 64 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: and Israel just couldn't put a finger on it. They 65 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: didn't know where it was coming from. It didn't know 66 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: exactly what it was even it didn't know what was happening, 67 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: but it had a feeling and a hunch that something 68 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: beyond the norm was going on. They knew that Syria 69 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: had this Chinese reactor that was given to it by 70 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: the Chinese back in the late eighties early nineties. They 71 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,119 Speaker 1: knew all the staff members was maybe a dozen people 72 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: who worked there. Nothing Sirius, just a research reactor. But 73 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: something more was going on and they couldn't figure out 74 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: what it was. You mentioned Libya. In December of two 75 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: thousand and three, when Numa Kadafi announced that he was 76 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: relinquishing whose nuclear program, Israel was shocked. Israel had no 77 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: CREWE and Libya was a state that for years had 78 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: been an enemy state to Israel, and this basically got 79 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: the Israelis to realize that there's could be so much 80 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: more that they don't know, and that's what started this 81 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: general feeling and sensive suspicion that them let the other 82 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: nuclear programs that are out there. But again when it 83 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: came to Syria, they couldn't put their finger on what 84 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: it was. They just had a hunch until Vienna. In 85 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: March of two thousand and seven, agents from Israel's Mossad, 86 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: the equivalent of the CIA, food the Vienna and they 87 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: knew that visiting the city that week was going to 88 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: be a Syrian nuclear scientist. The head of the Syrian 89 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: Atomic Energy Commission's name is Ibrahim Ozman, and they went 90 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: into his hotel room, obviously when he wasn't there, they 91 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: downloaded the contents of his computer. They brought back to Israel. 92 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: They had the material processed, and they were floored. They 93 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: had pictures of a nuclear reactor under construction in northeastern Syria, 94 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: being constructed by the North Koreans. Really, you had pictures 95 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: of the reactor, the outside structure, the poor of the reactor. 96 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: And the kicker I'd like to say, is this one 97 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: photo of Altman, the Syrian scientist, posing in front of 98 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: a nuclear reactor together with a man of the Asian 99 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: ethnicity who's wearing a blue track suit. And it turns 100 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: up that this guy, his name is Chun Chibou, and 101 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: he is the head of the Young Nuclear Complex in 102 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: North Korea. So you right there head this amazing evidence 103 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: of this nuclear cooperation between two rogue states, dangerous countries 104 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: in Israel's backyard. But that's the beginning. Now they're faced 105 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: with a potential reality, but they also have to verify 106 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: that it's real, correct, So they have these pictures. The 107 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: first process is verification. You're entred percent right, and you know, 108 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: anyone who's worked in intel knows, okay, you get you 109 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: get something, but you got to make sure that the 110 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: evidence is real, and you got to back it up 111 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: with additional proof. So they're satellite images. They found this 112 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: building in the northeastern desert to Syria that they couldn't 113 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: tell what it was. They didn't know what it was 114 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: doing there. It looked didn't look like a reactor, but 115 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: they quickly understood this was that building. What made it 116 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: even stranger was the fact that there were no military 117 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: bases nearby, there were no air defense systems nearby. It 118 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: was as if they were building a nuclear reactor, but 119 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: they weren't protecting it, which didn't make sense. But on 120 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: the other hand, when Israel realized what Asad Basharlasa, the 121 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: presidents of Syria, was trying to do, as he was 122 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: building this reactor and hiding it from the world, and 123 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: if he had placed military positions nearby, people would understand 124 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: that this is a sensitive and important facility. This way 125 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: he was able to try to continue to hide the 126 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: true nature. They did the verification, they went through it, 127 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: and right away the Prime Minister at the time, Ahod Olmert, 128 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: understood that this facility had to go away. This was 129 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: a reality that Israel cannot allow to exist. This rols 130 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: a tiny country. It's a country the size of New Jersey. 131 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: It's a country without strategic debt. So a nuclear bomb 132 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: that would land, let's say in the center of the 133 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: country near Tel Aviv, would be devastating for the entire country, 134 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: the entire Jewish nation. It could make potential life in 135 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: this state unviable. Not to mention radioactive fallout to nearby 136 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: states like Jordan. The width of the state of Israel 137 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: is just a few dozens of miles. You would have 138 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: radioactive fallout all throughout the region. So it's something that 139 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: Israel can't allowed to happen. It's not like, you know, 140 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: the nuclear weapon falls somewhere in the Midwest, the East 141 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: coast and the West coast are still going to be okay, right, 142 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: but not in Israel's case. And therefore, when an enemy 143 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: state is in the process of building that capability, that's 144 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: when the Israel can't live this. But you know, we'll 145 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: talk about intelligence for a moment. Israel is lucky here. 146 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: Israel discovered the reactor in an advanced stage of construction. 147 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: It had ben under construction for years. When it discovered, 148 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: it realized that the series were just a few months 149 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 1: away from making it active, from installing the fuel rods, 150 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: and the reactor would go hot if they were going 151 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: to take action. They had a very narrow window, so 152 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: it was really amazing luck that they managed to discover 153 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: it when they did. Next, Yakov Cats explains, is really 154 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: Prime Minister Olmert's dilemma. Prime Minister elmart has a dilemma 155 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: because under the Israeli doctrine that they'll never risk Holocaust 156 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: by having an enemy with a weapon of mans destruction, 157 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: something has to be done to get rid of this reactor, 158 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: and it has to be relatively timely before it goes 159 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: hot and actually starts producing nuclear material, because potentially bombing 160 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: it after it starts producing nuclear matrail could cause a 161 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: substantial amount of damage in the region. But his first 162 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: big hurdle is the Americans, because he ideally would like 163 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: them to solve it for him, but if they're not 164 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: going to solid he needs them to be on his 165 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: side if he solves them. Could you walk through what 166 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: the American problem was at that point a while it 167 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: was so difficult to get them to operate. I think 168 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: that this is really one of the big parts of 169 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: the story. Olmert realizes from the get go this thing 170 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: has to disappear. Israel cannot live with the nuclear reactor inferior. 171 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: The question is how to do it. In March of 172 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, when Israel discovers this reactor, we 173 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: are just seven months after the war in Lebanon that 174 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: was known as the Second Lebanon War against his Ballah. 175 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: It was a war that ended poorly for Israel. There 176 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: was no decisive victory. His Ballah was still there. They 177 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: had managed to fire over four thousand rockets in a month. 178 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: They caused devastation, destruction. They killed over one hundred and 179 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: twenty two soldiers dozens of civilians. There were calls for 180 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: Olmert to step down because of the failures of that war. 181 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: He under pressure appointed a State Commission of Inquiry to 182 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: look into those failures, which would then a month later 183 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: release its interim report, which would be damning for him 184 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: and for the Defense Minister and for the chief of staff. 185 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: So that's the context right now. Olmert knows this. The 186 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: Idfviral Defense Forces is in the process of rehabilitating and 187 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: repairing itself. There were many flaws that would discovered during 188 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: that war, and they're rebuilding itself and they're learning those 189 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: lessons to be able to apply them in case there 190 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: is a future war. So that's context one which is 191 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: extremely important because one of the reasons that Olmert wanted 192 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 1: the Americans to do it was if America carries out 193 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: the attack, there's less of a chance of retaliation against 194 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: Israel and then Israel and find itself in a major war. 195 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: That was a small reason. The bigger reason was what 196 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: Olmert was thinking about Iran. If Israel bombs Syria. He's 197 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: told his staff at the time, the Iranians would say, Okay, 198 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: that's expected, right. Israel took out the Osirak reactor in 199 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: Iraq in nineteen eighty one. Now they took out the 200 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: earned reactor in two thousand and seven. But if America 201 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: attacks Theia, if the US since its planes and bombed 202 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: the Syrian reactor, that would move the Uranians think really, 203 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: really hard. And as we all know, back in two 204 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: thousand and three, when the US was building up its 205 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: forces in the Persian Golf ahead of the invasion of Iraq, 206 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: that's when the Iranians suspended their nuclear program because they 207 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 1: feared at the time that they would be next in line. 208 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: Bush went after the Taliban, Bush went after Saddam and 209 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: maybe he'd go after the Iranians next. And for two 210 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: years they suspended everything because when there's a credible military 211 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: threat on the table, the Iranians calculate differently. So Olmert 212 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: knew that if Bush were to attack the Seerian reactor, 213 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: that could potentially get the Uranians to say, WHOA, We're 214 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: dealing with a different US president. We have to be careful, 215 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: and that would have such strategic benefit, not just for Israel. 216 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: This would have been a gift to the entire world. 217 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: So he sends his head of the Most Mayor Dagon 218 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: to Washington, DC in April of two thousand and seven, 219 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: with those photos that the Mossad had obtained in Vienna. 220 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: He goes to a meeting with Steve Hadley, the National 221 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: Security Advisor, Elude Abrams, Hadley's deputy, the depty on this 222 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: National Security Council in charge of the Middle East portfolio, 223 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: and a surprise guest who decided to sit in on 224 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: the meeting because he was intrigued, why is the head 225 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: of the most side coming to meet us? Dick Cheney, 226 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: Vice President of the United States, and he lays out 227 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: the photos. He shows them everything, which, as you know, 228 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: news prere vast experience that doesn't often happen. Right that 229 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: you bring raw intelligence, usually bring an analysis, you share 230 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: with him some ideas or conceptions. Here was the raw intelligence. 231 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: It was because Israel really wanted to get the Americans 232 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: on board, and that's set off a whole process on 233 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: the US side of what their considerations would be. Bush 234 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: set up two different teams to consider and debate and plan. 235 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: Over a period of two and a half three months, 236 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: they came up with a wide variety of options, from 237 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: a straightforward air strike to a covert operation sending in 238 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: special forces, to bombing just part of the facility, not 239 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: the entire facility, until ultimately the proposal that they came 240 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: up with, which Bush accepted and decided that this is 241 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: what he wanted, was a multi tier clan that would 242 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: first see the public outing of ASAD, denouncing and revealing 243 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: the existence of the reactor of the world, taking him 244 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: to the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, 245 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: then to the Security Council in New York, imposing sanctions, 246 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: demanding the destruction of the reactor, and of all that failed, 247 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: then US military force. And when he told that to 248 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: Olmer in July two thousand and seven, that that was 249 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: his decision. Olmer said to mister President, this is unacceptable. 250 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: This is unacceptable. I've told you this needed to disappear 251 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: and needed to go away, and if you're not going 252 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: to do it, I'm going to do it. And I 253 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: tell him the book how in the oval that day, 254 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: I think it was July thirteenth. It was a Friday. 255 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: You had Bush on the phone with OLMERT was in 256 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: jurors from Bush in DC. You had Hadley and Abrams 257 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: in the Oval together with him listening on different phone receivers, 258 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: and Abrams later told me how he was terrified that 259 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: after this phone conversation with the Israeli Prime minister, basically, 260 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if a better word than to say, 261 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: just had hutzpah, right, I mean, talked back to the 262 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: US President. That's not gonna you think happen that often. 263 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: He thought the President would be furious, but instead the 264 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: President puts down the phone and says, you know, I 265 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: like that guy. He's got guns. And as Hadley later 266 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: explained to me, President George W. Bush respected leaders who 267 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: stood up for the conviction, respected leaders who stood up 268 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: for what they believe was right, and recognize that Israel 269 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: saw this differently than the United States. And therefore, even 270 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: when later Bob Gates comes to him, conde leaser Rice 271 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: comes and says, you have to stop Olmert. Can't let 272 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: him attack. Bush said, no, it's an existential threat to Israel. 273 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: Israel used this differently than us. If it wasn't. First 274 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: of all, we weren't even known about it. If this 275 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: is what Israel's going to do, we're not going to 276 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: stop them. And that's also the Bush's credit. The other 277 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: amazing piece of all this is the the two step process, 278 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: one of using commandos to verify the reactor, in doing 279 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: so apparently so covertly that the Serians didn't realize that happened. 280 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: And then the other was the training and the focus 281 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: on the mission itself. Can you talk first about this 282 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: remarkable intervention by helicopter born commandos and which I thought 283 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: was as interesting as anything in the whole books, A 284 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: pretty fascinating story. Israel bombs the reactor in September six, 285 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: two seven, but in August Olmert, together with the IDs, 286 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: decides to send a small team of commandos to the 287 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: area near the reactor. It was a twofold objective. The 288 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: first was again verification. They wanted to see it on 289 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: their own. They wanted to take some samples of the soil. 290 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: They wanted to get some really close proximity photographs of 291 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: what was happening there and see it from the ground 292 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: of what were the real installations that were nearby, what 293 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 1: type of resistance potentially existed. But also what they wanted 294 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: to do was to create a capability to be able 295 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: to send a covert mission to destroy the reactor. Because 296 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: once they decided in Israel that the way to destroy 297 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: it was to do it as quietly as possible and 298 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: never to take credit for it, then what they wanted 299 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: to do is do it in a way that would 300 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: not lead anyone directly back to Israel. So there are 301 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: a lot of plans that were thought of. For example, 302 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: the easiest would be to send twenty aircraft or the reactor. 303 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: Drop your bonds, but you send twenty fighter planes. Everyone 304 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: knows where they came from. That's on one end of 305 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: the spectrum. The other extreme would be to send in 306 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: a small group of commandos like those who went there 307 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: in that August raid, just with some explosives to infiltrate 308 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: the actual facility, attached the explosives and bring down the facility. 309 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: And that raid in August was meant to show and 310 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: to prove that they have the capability to get as 311 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: close and to get to the reactor. Ultimately, they decided 312 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: against that. The Chief of staff felt that that was 313 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: too big a risk for a couple of reasons. One 314 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: was the risk to the actual commandos if one got caught, 315 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: the people got captured. Two was what happened if they 316 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: don't have enough explosives to take down the entire building, 317 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: and they felt that it was more important to go 318 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: at the safer route of complete destruction of the reactor, 319 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: but not to do it as in a massive aerial operation, 320 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: to do it small, so only with about five six aircraft. 321 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: That was it, and in the end that's how they 322 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: took it out. The pilots started training early on. Now 323 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: they hand picked the pilots from a bunch of different squadrons. 324 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 1: And as you know newt in Israel, you have your 325 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: standing military, but you also have your reservists, especially in 326 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: the Air Force. The reservists continue to fly till they 327 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: are forty five, sometimes even till they're fifty. This group 328 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: of pilots started training weekly regularly for a mission that 329 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: they were told was going to be about six to 330 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: seven hundred kilometers away from Israel. They didn't know where 331 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: it was, They weren't told the country, they weren't told 332 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: what the target would be. But they had to train 333 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: because as I later discovered, and I wrote about this 334 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: in book, I tell how add Brock, former Prime Minister, 335 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: who at the time was the Defense Minister, the morning 336 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: after the bombing, goes home and stands on the balcony 337 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: of his apartment and one of these high rise apartment 338 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: buildings in Tel Aviv overlooking the city, and he was 339 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: on the twentieth floor, and as he's standing there drinking 340 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: his morning coffee, he realizes he's, like, holy cow, the 341 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: pilots food lower than my apartment all the way to Syria. 342 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: Because to avoid radar detection, they had to fly low, 343 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: super low, just a couple hundred feet above the ground. 344 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: So that's what they had to train for, and they 345 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: had to train a lot for that to be be able 346 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: to do that, and do that right only the day 347 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: of the attack, so that afternoon where they told where 348 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: they were going and what their target was going to be. 349 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 1: So imagine for a moment, you're a pilot in Israeli 350 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 1: Air Force. You've been training for a mission. You have 351 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: no clue what it is. You know it's important because 352 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: no one's telling you too much. You know it's got 353 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: to be saying big. But then you're told it's a 354 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: nuclear reactor just over the border in Syria. You know, 355 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: the pilots told me this. Years later, they were shaking 356 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: with emotion still because of just how they recognize and 357 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: realize this is not just another mission. This is a 358 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: mission to save and to ensure the continued survival of 359 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: the only Jewish state in the world. I wonder if 360 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: they had the same feeling back in eighty one, did 361 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: that There are those moments when you know it's not 362 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: it's not just a job or even just a mission, 363 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: but that this could be a decisive event in enabling 364 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: your country to literally survive, which is something that non israelis. 365 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: Because of the difference in size and scale, it's hard 366 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: for us to realize how, on the one hand, stunningly 367 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: prosperous israelis, and on the other hand, how every morning 368 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: how close it is to a potential disaster. I think 369 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: this is one of those moments, and that's why the 370 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: story is so interesting, so important, because because of the 371 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: silence in Israel for so many years, it never got 372 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: its proper place. People know about the bombing of the 373 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: Iraqi reactor, and there was a similar case there. You're 374 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: one hundred percent right that then two the pilots were 375 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: training for a mission which is farther away, right, and 376 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: they weren't told what the target was. They didn't know. 377 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: They drew imaginary circles around the state of Israel eight 378 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: hundred miles that they were told they would have to 379 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: fly back in eighty one, and they didn't know. They thought, 380 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, maybe we're going to Iran, maybe we're going 381 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: to some our Egypt going yeah, t Iraq, but what's 382 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: an Iraq? They knew it was reactor, but they never 383 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: thought that that Israel was going to attack it at 384 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: the time, and then just a couple of days before 385 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: the mission that they were revealed what their target was 386 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: going to be. And I think that these are those 387 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: moments that these people are created for without a doubt. 388 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: At one level is not surprising because the Israel Air 389 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: Force has a remarkable record. They had to do in 390 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: a very constrained way because they didn't want the footprint 391 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: to be big enough that the Syrians had to notice it. 392 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: They also had to do it this way because only 393 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: a handful of people in Israel knew about it, so 394 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: they kept the pilots in the dark because they didn't 395 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: want to run even the risk that the pilots would 396 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: say something to somebody and then it would get out. 397 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: The plan was all dependent on one thing, and one 398 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: thing only that Assad. They didn't know that Israel knew 399 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: about it because the moment ASSAD would have discovered that 400 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: Israel knew about his reactor. It says Michael Hayden said 401 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: they had of the CIA at the time. He would 402 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: send that busslow the kindergarten kids, put them in the reactor, 403 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: and then Israel would never be able to attack. No 404 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: one would be able to attack, right, So everything was 405 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: dependent on outside not knowing that we knew about it, 406 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 1: and that's why only a select few people could actually 407 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: know what was really happening, if I remember correctly. At 408 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: this point, he's also under huge pressure with a corruption scandal. 409 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: So on the one side, he's weakened domestically, and he's 410 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: about to make one of the most important decisions in 411 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: Israeli history without his due. The two big real achievements 412 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: of all murd here I think that makes this story 413 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: so unique is exactly what you just said. I mentioned 414 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: the context of the second weapon on war. You mentioned 415 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: it to the corruption allegations against that you eventually would 416 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: send him to jail. The first is early Prime Minister 417 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: to go to jail. But I just want to take 418 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: you back to that March meeting when Dagan, the head 419 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: of the most sad brings those photos to Almert. They're 420 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: sitting in his office in Jerusalem, and as is looking 421 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: at the photos and digesting that literally his world has 422 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: now changed. Right, there's a knock on the door of 423 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: his office. He says, go away. The knocking persists. The 424 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: door opens and it's a spokesperson and he says, not now, 425 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: and the spokesperson says, no, I need to ask you 426 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: a question, because it's almost the eight o'clock news, that's 427 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: the primetime TV news in Israel, and we just got 428 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,479 Speaker 1: a question. They're about to unveil or reveal in our 429 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: news report a never criminal investigation against you. What should 430 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: we respond? It almost that I don't care, get the 431 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: hell out of here. But I mentioned that because with 432 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: the problems that we saw on Belove and on the war, 433 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: the corruption allegations against him, and the fact that you 434 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: have a US president who says, listen, I got your back. 435 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: I'll take care of it. It's not the way you 436 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: want me to, but I will ultimately take care of it. 437 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: He had all the reasons in the world to say 438 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to go to the Americans on this. Right, 439 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: He's got the US president who says I got your back. 440 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: He's got to the head of the ID actually saying, listen, 441 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: there's a fifty percent chance we're going to have a war, 442 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: not with his Valla, but with the Syrian military, the 443 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: largest and most lethal conventional military that is a threat 444 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: to us still today. And this back in two thousand 445 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: and seven, and the corruption allegations. He could have gone 446 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: with the Americans day he stood up, he said no. 447 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: I think that was that first major act of bravery. 448 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: And I think the second thing which was striking for me. 449 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: Israel had a policy, but it wasn't going to speak 450 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: about what it did. Its strategy was if it stays quiet, 451 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: it believed that it could create only call the deniability 452 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: zone that Asad would move into because so little people 453 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: knew in so few people knew in Syria about this, 454 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: that if Israel never said anything, Asad would sweep it 455 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: under the rug and he wouldn't retaliate because he prefer 456 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: not to go to war. And that's ultimately what happened. 457 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: But Olmert, who leaves office in two thousand and nine, 458 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: who later gets indicted, who then gets convicted, who then 459 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: gets sentenced, who let appeals and gets sentenced again, get 460 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: sent to jail, who leaves jail, that all those points 461 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: along the way could have stood up and said, are 462 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: you guys crazy? I see all of you. I saved 463 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: you from a nuclear weapon. But he never did that. 464 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: To me, that's impressive. At no point didn try to 465 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: use this for political benefit. He shouldn't take that for granted. 466 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: But I think part of that is they had reached 467 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: a conclusion that if he did take credit for it, 468 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: he would become a public event and Hassad would feel 469 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: compelled to retaliate correct whereas if he'd behaved as though 470 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: nothing had happened and allowed the Syrians to behave as 471 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: though nothing had happened exactly. It's a brilliant strategy executed 472 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: with enormous discipline. I can tell you that as a 473 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: journalist who's been covering the political and military echelons in 474 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: his country for about two decades now, you don't see 475 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: that discipline on every issue. This was unique in that sense. 476 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: I think it was because, having been through the Lebanon War, 477 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: which did not go well for Omart, he realized if 478 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: you could find a way to eliminate the threat without 479 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: starting a war with Syria, that would be enormous change. 480 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: I had known him for many years, but my respect 481 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: for his patriotism, his discipline, and his understanding of priorities 482 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: really skyrocketed when I read your book. I thought it 483 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: was a remarkable achievement of his part. Coming up twelve 484 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: years after the mission. We'd be living in a very 485 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: different world if the Israelis had enacted. When you look 486 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: back both at the Iraqi actor which was taken out 487 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: by Israel and eighty one, and you look at the 488 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: reactor in Syria that was taken out in two thousand 489 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,479 Speaker 1: and seven. On both occasions, Israel did an enormous service 490 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: to the entire planet by reducing the danger of nuclear 491 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: weapons falling into truly irresponsible and truly dangerous hands. That's 492 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: something that frankly, Israel does not get enough credit for. 493 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: I think you're one hundred percent day. Israel is the 494 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: only country in the world today to have taken action 495 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: and removed to nuclear reactors that were a threat, not 496 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: just to Israel, that's the entire world. You go back 497 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty one, and you'll remember this. At the time, 498 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: the US administration, the Reagan administration, was not happy that 499 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: Israel took that unilateral step, but ten years later during 500 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: the First Gulf War an Operation Desert Storm, when Dick 501 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: Cheney then was actually the Secretary of Defense, he recognized 502 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: that if Israel had taken out that reactor ten years earlier, 503 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: Operation Desert Store might not have been possible because Soda 504 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: would have had nuclear weapon. When we'd look back now 505 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: twelve years that have passed since the destruction of the 506 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: Syrian reactor. Now, imagine that there had been the civil 507 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: war that was in Syria. Imagine that Isis had taken 508 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: over that territory where that reactor understood, which it did. 509 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen. Isis conquered the region known as Dirazor 510 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: near the Euphrates River in northeastern Syria where that reactor stood. 511 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: And imagine Isis had got in its hands on a 512 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: nuclear reactor. You would have radioactive, dirty bombs throughout the world. 513 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: Right it is. You have build a service, not just 514 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: to a sofa, to the entire world. And you know, 515 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: I forget about Isis even for a moment. But Shah 516 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: Alasa has showed the world in the last eight years 517 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: of the civil war in Syria that he has no 518 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: red line. He's willing to use chemical weapons against his 519 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: own people. You have over half a million people who 520 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: have been killed in the civil War. What would have 521 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: stopped him from using a nuclear weapon against Israel against 522 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: his own people? Who knows right, it would be a 523 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: different world that we would live in today. And I 524 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: think that it's so important also because when we think 525 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: about the Uranian and the possibility and prospect that one 526 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: day they will get their hands on nuclear weapons, this 527 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: needs to be the alarmbone we need to be listening 528 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: to it because if he Ron gets its hands and 529 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, that's a game changer as well, and they 530 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: have to be stopped before they have it. That's when 531 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: they need to be stopped, not after they get it. 532 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: I think it is a remarkable story and you do 533 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: literally a novelist job of writing it so brilliantly that 534 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: it's a page turner all the way through. Thank you 535 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: to my guest Jakov Kats. You can read an extrat 536 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: of his book Shadow Strike, Inside Israel's Secret Mission to 537 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: eliminate Syria Nuclear power on our show page at newtsworld 538 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: dot com. Newsworld is produced by Westwood One. Our executive 539 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: producer is Debbie Myers and our producer is Gornsey Sloan. 540 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: Our editor is Robert Barowski and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 541 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: Our guest booker is Grace Davis. The artwork for the 542 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. The music was composed 543 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: by Joey Salvia. Special thanks to the team at Gingwi 544 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: Street sixty and Westwood One's John Wardock and Robert Mathers. 545 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: Please email me with your comments at newtat newtsworld dot com. 546 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to 547 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and 548 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 549 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: all about. On the next episode of Newtsworld, we're celebrating 550 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: the fiftieth anniversary of the Apollo eleven mission to the Moon. 551 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: My guests is doctor Buzzi. Vai ark is not an option. 552 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: Maybe a cute phrase, but if you believe that, that 553 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: means you don't think something's going to fail, so you 554 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: don't trade for it, because failure is an optioned. I'm 555 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: new Kangwig. This is Newsworld, the Westwood One podcast network.