1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: to go into the vault. This is part three of 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: the series we've been running. This week. There are episodes 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: on Pacific island navigation. This episode originally aired on July. 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: I remember the series very fondly, so we hope you 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: enjoy it. Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind, production 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 9 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: and we're back with part three of our series about 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: ancient Pacific Island navigation. In the previous couple of episodes, 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: of course, if you haven't listened to those, you should 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: go back and check those out first so you can 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: understand what we're talking about today. But in the last 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: couple of episodes, we talked about a lot of these 16 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,959 Speaker 1: fascinating mysteries about the population of the Pacific Islands and 17 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: and how those islands were first colonized by humans, how 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: people found them, and then how people traveled between them 19 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,199 Speaker 1: once they knew where all the islands were. Because, of course, 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: this is a huge area of the surface of the 21 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: Earth that is covered almost entirely by water and only 22 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: polka dotted with these tiny islands here and there. And 23 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: yet somehow, without charts, without instruments like a like a 24 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,279 Speaker 1: compass um, the navigators of the Pacific Islands were able 25 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: to reach the other islands in in the surrounding areas 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: with this amazing level of accuracy. So in the first 27 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: episode we talked about some of the history theories about 28 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: the history of the settlement of these islands, and then 29 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: in the last episode we talked about techniques that have 30 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: been documented that allowed master navigators to locate and and 31 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: sail to islands in this in this vast ocean with 32 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: enough accuracy that they could do so reliably over and 33 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: over again. And what those techniques without charts and modern 34 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: instruments would have been. Yeah, this this whole realm of 35 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: environmental navigation, which I just want to drive home again 36 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: when we're talking about this, we're talking not about some 37 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: sort of innate art or something that is just uh, 38 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: this one acquires by you know, being out in the 39 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: water or being uh, you know, growing up on the ocean, 40 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Now, this was this was a 41 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: science that was learned that was passed down from generation 42 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: to generation across these these different Pacific cultures. That's right. 43 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: One of the main sources we've been referring to is 44 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: a very important book in the history of of studying 45 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 1: these techniques that was by a scholar named David Lewis, 46 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: and it was published with the University of Hawaii Press 47 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two. It's called We the Navigators, The 48 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: Ancient Art of Land Finding in the Pacific. And one 49 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: thing that's really really cool about this book is that 50 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: Lewis sailed well. He he interviewed many master navigators of 51 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: different Pacific islands in Micronesia and Polynesia, but he also 52 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,679 Speaker 1: sailed with several navigators including UH, two very prominent navigators 53 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: named Hippur and Tevik, from whom he learned a whole 54 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: lot about these these techniques firsthand at sea, like they 55 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: were navigating his boat, which was a boat called the 56 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: Ispiorn and UH, and so we got to see these 57 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: techniques firsthand. And so in the last episode we talked 58 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: mostly about techniques for navigation on the open sea. Direction finding, 59 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: so especially using the stars to to orient towards your targets. 60 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: And UH, and then using backup methods as well, such 61 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: as like using the sun during the daytime and navigating 62 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: by directionally reliable c swells, which was especially astounding to me, 63 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: like the idea that you know, you could learn how 64 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: to feel for certain patterns of c swells that reliably 65 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: come from a certain direction and then use that to 66 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: know which way you're heading. Um. And then also, of 67 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: course you would have to pair these direction finding techniques 68 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: on the open sea with the system of dead reckoning, 69 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: which is noing how far you have traveled based on 70 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: your rate of travel, your starting position, and your direction 71 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: of travel and sort. And so that would be a 72 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: way of sort of record keeping your journey mentally as 73 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: you're going along the way, even though you don't necessarily 74 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: have new environmental clues to choose from. But today we 75 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: wanted to get mainly into the question of land finding. 76 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: So a traditional Pacific navigator has used open sea navigation 77 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: techniques like celestial orientation and dead reckoning to get roughly 78 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: to the vicinity of an island. Once you are nearing 79 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: your destination, how do you actually find the land? Yeah, 80 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: because we discussed in the previous episode, you don't want 81 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: to you know, be sailing in the right direction to 82 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: be in the vicinity of the island, and then not 83 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: be able to see it too again again, not be 84 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 1: close enough to pick up on the very obvious cues 85 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: that you were near the island, and have to pick 86 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: up on those more subtle cues that would require training 87 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,119 Speaker 1: and expertise to notice. Right, I mean, one of the 88 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: biggest dangerous actually for a Pacific Island sailor is missing 89 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: your target, is going past the island you're trying to 90 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: get to without realizing it. Yeah, I mean, in a 91 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: very very loose sense. It's like depending on say, your 92 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: your GPS navigational system, which we refer to previously, you know, 93 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: using that to get to the immediate area, like the 94 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: block where the where the store is that you're trying 95 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: to go a store you've never been to before. But 96 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: then once you're there, the GPS is only gonna help 97 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,559 Speaker 1: you so much. Then you're gonna have to pinpoint the sign, 98 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: figure out which storefront it is, figure out your parking, etcetera. 99 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: There are a whole new set of problems that your 100 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: mirror navigational system, your GPS, is not able to help 101 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: you with. Right, and so one thing that's very interesting 102 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: that David Lewis explores in his book is what he 103 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: calls the idea of expanded target landfall. And what that 104 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: means is that by using a swim wheat of land 105 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: finding techniques, you can essentially extend the radius of land 106 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: a certain reliable distance out into the ocean. And I'll 107 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: talk about the distances as we go on, but there's 108 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: a certain reliable distance out into the ocean that you 109 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: can just expect to be able to detect nearby land, 110 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: even if you can't see it. And if you measure 111 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: land including those radii out into the ocean beyond the 112 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: shore and uh and especially beyond sort of like reefs 113 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: and submerged or or almost submerged a toolls nearby, you 114 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: can actually greatly expand the percent of the Pacific Ocean 115 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: that is taken up by by by land range. Basically, 116 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: so you can expand your target from these tiny islands 117 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: surrounded mostly by water to basically a block of islands 118 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: with mostly or totally overlapping ranges of land detectable water. 119 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: Does that make sense, yes, Yeah, basically increases the the 120 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: the footprint of the island, like the the detectable footprint 121 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: of the island right. So, so, of course the direction 122 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: finding techniques like celestial navigation are extremely important in getting 123 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: you towards your your target, but also the expanded target 124 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: landfall is just as important, if not more important. I mean, 125 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: I guess you can't really have one without the other. 126 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: It is also extremely important because you know, there's only 127 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: so accurate you can get with steering by stars. You 128 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: still need to be able to correct course and find 129 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: the land once you're close enough. And so, how far 130 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: exactly can you expect to find land from out in 131 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: the ocean. Well, it does very a lot, depending on 132 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: local conditions. But Lewis cites a scholar named Frankel who 133 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: estimates that on average, land can usually be detected from 134 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: about thirty miles in any direction, and Louis essentially agrees 135 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: with this number. Uh, And then he writes the US quote, 136 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: if we draw circles with thirty miles RADII around each 137 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: Pacific island, we find that the circles overlap over vast areas, 138 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: giving rise to solid blocks i e. Islands separated by 139 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: not more than sixty miles passing between which a canoe 140 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: could not be more than thirty miles offshore. So with 141 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: these expanded target landfall techniques, the problem of finding these 142 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: tiny islands in the vast ocean actually is much more manageable. 143 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: It's reducible more to finding these blocks or screens of 144 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: islands within a certain angle, you know, a certain angle 145 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: of direction from your starting position. So it means that 146 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: what would otherwise be a sprinkle of islands becomes a 147 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: clump of islands, yes, which there's some there. You actually 148 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: shared a wonderful map here that that that demonstrates this, 149 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: and it's really it's really quite impressive, okay, because you 150 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: can see it making a huge amount of difference, uh, 151 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: is you're traveling, you know, between these these islands, uh, 152 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: potentially even charting some of these these more distant journeys. 153 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: That's right. So if you're looking at it from a 154 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: map that includes expanded target landfall, is sort of a 155 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: black circle around the island. What would have been a 156 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: smattering of of little tiny dots instead turns into a 157 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: big clump of black circles that they're all overlapping each other. 158 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: So this really does help with the problem. But of 159 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: course you could easily once again pass between these islands 160 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: without actually being able to see them visually. So you 161 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: need to be able to know what to look for. 162 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: And again one of the things that stressed, especially in 163 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: we the navigators, is that the degree of what they 164 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: call screening the screening of islands rather than individual island targets. 165 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: So you would aim for a screen like a line 166 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: of islands that are all overlapping within land finding range 167 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: of one another. That the the degree of screening of 168 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: an island or island group target was the number one 169 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: safety concern when making a journey there, So more screening 170 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: more overlapping of the expanded targets is safer, and less 171 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: screening where there are gaps between the expanded targets is 172 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: much more dangerous because again of the danger of unknowingly 173 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: passing your target. But I guess we should talk about 174 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 1: what are the actual landfall signs? What are the environmental 175 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: signs that can be used to detect a land from 176 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: a long distance away. I guess we should start with 177 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: the one that is the most obvious. Maybe this one 178 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: doesn't actually need to be said, but there are a 179 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: couple of things about it that are worth sorting out. Actually, 180 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: So the most obvious one is high ground right. In 181 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: some cases your target island is very tall and it 182 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: can be seen from very far away. So for example, 183 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: Tahiti reaches elevations of something like seventy feet, and for 184 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: this reason, the land itself can sometimes be seen from 185 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: as far as eighty miles away. That that's a real 186 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: good distance. And likewise Hawaii that can be seen from 187 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: extremely far away. It can volcanoes and rising land masks 188 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: that sometimes up up to like thirteen thousand feet. But 189 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: not every island is tall like this. Many Pacific islands 190 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: lie more or less at sea level, with nothing much 191 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: taller than the height of a palm tree, and you 192 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: can easily miss these. Standard navigational lore holds that on 193 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: these low islands, visibility is about ten miles given the 194 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: presence of coconut palms, which grow to about seventy five 195 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: ft high, so at about ten miles you should be 196 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: able to see the tallest of the coconut palms. It's 197 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: interesting I was reading about about this and it reminded 198 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: me of our episode on on the font of Morgana, 199 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: where we talked about mirages and about how in some 200 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: cases there were islands that we even put on maps 201 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: that turned out to not be real. They were based 202 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 1: on on mirrages, and the reverse of that is also true. 203 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: There are islands that um certainly as as European powers 204 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: were coming into play and trying to map everything out, 205 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: there were islands that were that were known to be 206 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: to exist by by the natives, but various Europeans would 207 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: would have would decide why this was probably a mirage. 208 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: We don't have yet, we don't know exactly where it is, 209 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: but it would turn out it was actually there. Yeah, 210 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: and it's funny you should bring up the fed Amorghana 211 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: episode because this land finding technique is way down the 212 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: list in terms of of how commonly it was used 213 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: in the level of priority it's given. But one of 214 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: the things mentioned in this book is that land loom 215 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: the optical illusion of being able to see the land 216 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: in a in a superior mirage projected up above the horizon, 217 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: even though the land is not visible itself from where 218 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: you are. This actually was sometimes used by some Pacific 219 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: Island navigators, specifically Lewis Sites navigators from the Gilbert's using 220 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: this one. But coming back to the idea of vantage 221 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: points and high ground, there is actually a pretty reliable 222 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: mathematical equation you can use for determining the visibility of 223 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: an object over the horizon at sea. Uh and and 224 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: it goes like this, So you take the square root 225 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: of the height of the object you're looking for in 226 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: feet and and so this is this method will be 227 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: unit dependent. But the square root of the height of 228 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 1: the object in feet. So that could be a you know, 229 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: a seventy five ft tall palm tree, or it could 230 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: be a mountaintop or a lighthouse, whatever that is. And 231 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: then you add that to the square root of the 232 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: observer's height, so that would also be in feet. If 233 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: you're you know, if your eyes are five feet above 234 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: the water, that's five feet, or if you're sitting down 235 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: in a low canoe, it's probably even lower. And then 236 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: you you add those together and then you multiply by 237 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: I've seen different numbers. Actually I found a navigational website 238 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: that suggested multiplying that number by one point one seven. 239 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: Lewis gives gives the idea to multiply by one point 240 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: one five. But whichever way you do, you'll probably get 241 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: pretty close to the same answer. And this will give 242 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: you the distance away in miles that an object can 243 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: usually be seen over the horizon. But that made me 244 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: think about the height of the observer, which makes me 245 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: wonder about the land finding virtues of different watercraft, right, 246 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: because they're obviously different kinds of watercraft. People make these 247 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: journeys and sometimes there and they could be an outrigger canoes, 248 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: or they could be in a double hulled traditional navigational 249 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: vessel that would have a much more raised platform in 250 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: the middle with even a cabin that I guess you 251 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: could technically get on top of. I don't know how. 252 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: I don't know what all of the techniques with with 253 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: ancient Pacific watercraft would be for getting higher up as 254 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: a vantage point, but that seems like that that could 255 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: give you an advantage as well, right, because of course 256 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: they would not have the advantage that that you would 257 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: have with again a crow's nest lookout in a western 258 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: sailing vessel, like you know, a large scale ocean voyaging ship. 259 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: That's right, but uh, fortunately, these these specific navigators had 260 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: lots of other environmental cues they could look for. And 261 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: these cues are very important because even with taller islands, 262 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: so even if you're trying to get you know, to 263 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: a place that's mountain. As you're trying to get to 264 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: Tahiti or Hawaii or something, environmental conditions can render these 265 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: less visible. So Louis gives the example of mountains the 266 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: mountains of Mangareva and Truck, which should be visible based 267 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: on their height from like forty five miles away, but 268 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: he says that in his case, when he was once 269 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: approaching in in the boat, they were unable to see 270 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: the peaks of these islands because of overcast, and so 271 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: their first visual sighting was actually of the surrounding barrier 272 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: reef rather than of the island itself. Now, as we 273 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: go on to discuss more of these land finding techniques, 274 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: it's important to note that they vary in both directions, 275 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: meaning that the land finding techniques very in preference of 276 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: individual navigators and navigator cultures and in availability at target. 277 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: So there are some like, uh, there some traditions of 278 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: land finding lore that place more emphasis on one or 279 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: the other. But also you need to have the backup 280 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: knowledge because you're not always going to be able to 281 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: find all of these when you look for them. Yeah, again, 282 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: this is a suite of tools that one that a 283 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: navigator would use. This is a toolbox of different techniques, 284 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: and you're not gonna want to depend on just one 285 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: of them. Now you're gonna use several of them, and 286 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: some of them are gonna better than others. But when 287 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: used in congress, UH, you can get the train navigator 288 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: can get really positive results. Now there's one thing that 289 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: Lewis mentions in this book which I thought was interesting, 290 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: which is a sort of counter example to uh, the 291 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: thing we've talked about a couple a couple of times, 292 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: which is that he says, you know, none of the 293 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: navigators he spoke to or traveled with ever ever appealed 294 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: to the idea of a sixth sense. Right, you were 295 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: mentioning this earlier. It's not just intuition about being at sea. 296 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: When they were making navigational decisions, they could always point 297 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: to specific markers. They could say the reason I'm going 298 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: this way is because of this. It's something that was 299 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: in the environment that could be pointed out and understood. 300 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: So it wasn't just a gut feeling. But one place 301 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: in which he does say intuition seemed to come in 302 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: was in the calculus of how much to wait different 303 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: types of observations of land finding signs so navigators might 304 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: get close to an island and you'd see one kind 305 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: of sign and then another one, and they'd be trying 306 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: to decide which way to go based on maybe different 307 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: conflicting signals, or or what what the sort of sum 308 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: total or average of the evidence was. And that did 309 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: seem to be more based on a gut feeling after 310 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: surveying all the evidence available to them. So I thought 311 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: that was an interesting counterpoint. Thank thank thank so. The 312 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: first big sign to mension, I think would be birds. Uh. 313 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: There's actually a part where where Lewis cites a navigator 314 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: named Tita who says that who is quoted at length 315 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: on this He says birds are the navigator's very best friends. 316 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: Birds are useful up to twice the site range of 317 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: an island from a canoe. And he also says the 318 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: site range of land is about ten miles and that 319 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: of birds twenty. The birds which are the most significant 320 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: are turns and naughties. Yeah, I've read that. You know, 321 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: a lot of it comes down to familiarity with bird species. 322 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: It's not just of course birds in general, but specific 323 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: knowledge of how far out to see a particular bird 324 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: species will typically go. So if it's a If it's 325 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: a sea bird, for instance, the distance could be somewhere 326 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood of a hundred kilometers, which is about 327 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: sixty two point one miles um. You know, again, it's 328 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: just going to depend on the exact variety of bird uh, 329 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: while other varieties of birds are going to stay much 330 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: closer to land. That's right. So yeah, you need to 331 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: look not just for birds in general, but for specific 332 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 1: species of birds, because there are, as you mentioned, pelagic 333 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: species like petrolls and sheer waters that will just not 334 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: lead you to land with any reliability. If you follow them, 335 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: you may end up cruising out into the deep and 336 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 1: not coming back. But once you get within about thirty 337 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: to fifty miles of shore, you will start to see 338 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: some familiar species that are somewhat reliable. So first of all, 339 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: you'll see booby birds uh and sometimes predatory frigate birds. 340 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: At this distance of thirty to fifty miles, and then 341 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: even closer, within about twenty to twenty five miles of 342 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: the nearest atoll, you will get what what Louis says 343 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: are quote mixed flocks of white turns and naddies that 344 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: will be encountered busily searching for fish, and once again 345 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 1: they show no more interest in directing the wayfarer than 346 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: a busy New York policeman. Uh So, so there's some 347 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: further deduction you have to do. It's not just like 348 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: you see the birds and then you immediately know what's up. 349 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: If you see booby birds, frigate birds, turns and naughties, 350 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: you know you're close. But you can't really use their 351 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: flight paths and behavior throughout the daytime to know which 352 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: direction land lies. So what do you do? We have 353 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: to use time of day. These species roost on land 354 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: and they have to return to solid ground daily, and 355 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,479 Speaker 1: so the time of day tells you a lot. They 356 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: typically fly out to their fishing shoals from land in 357 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: the early morning, and then they return to land in 358 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: the evening. So to read a passage from from Lewis 359 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: here he writes quote towards evening, the frigate birds, for example, 360 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: will be seen to abandon their leisurely patrolling, climb even higher, 361 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: and set off in one direction, probably homing by sight. 362 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: About the same time, the boobies will tire of their 363 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: inquisitive inspections and fly low and arrows straight for the horizon. 364 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: As the noddies depart, they will weave slightly in and 365 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: out between the crests of larger waves, while the turns 366 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: will be flying a little above them, but all will 367 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: be following a very exact path towards their home island. 368 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: So once you are within range of land, and you've 369 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: gotten there again by the process of of of open 370 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: sea navigation, often by the stars and uh and then 371 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: these backup methods together with dead reckoning, you get within 372 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: range of the island, you start to see certain bird 373 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: species and you know which species to look for and 374 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: what time of day to follow them. And if you 375 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: see the birds all trending in the same direction around sundown, 376 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: then you know. There are also a few stories here 377 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: and there about islands where some sea going birds have 378 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: been domesticated, you know, like fed and trained. But these 379 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: stories seemed kind of vague and uncertain, but it is 380 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: at least an interesting possibility to consider whether there's much 381 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: to it or not. Like, what if an island culture 382 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: could essentially train frigate birds to be the walmart graters 383 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: of the island. Yeah, yeah, and almost like living lighthouses 384 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: in some respects. Yeah, because the behavior of birds can 385 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: factor and apart from just uh you know, flying back 386 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: like booby, birds are considered useful in that they will 387 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: not only fly towards land at the close of day, 388 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: they will often take an active interest in approaching boats 389 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: and they will try to land on them, like land 390 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: on the rigging or something, before eventually flying off towards 391 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: home in the evening. Now, I know a lot of 392 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: you out there probably watched The Simpsons or watched The 393 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: Simpsons in the past, and you're probably thinking about the 394 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: scene in the episode Boy Scouts in the Hood. Uh uh, 395 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: this is the the episode and well, let's see, I'm 396 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: trying to remember exactly how it went. Did they get 397 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: lost at sea? Well, first they get lost at river, 398 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: which then results in them being lost at sea, and 399 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: they're trying to get back to land and then what 400 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: do they see in the sky? They see a seagull. 401 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: Is this the one that starts with Bart wanting a 402 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,239 Speaker 1: knife but to get the knife? Yeah, and he has 403 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: to read the book don't do what Donny Don't does. 404 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: But yeah, it ends up with them doing a boy 405 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: Scout river race and so they're lost at sea and 406 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: what I don't remember what happens with the seagull. I 407 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: think Ned declare Ned is with them, and Ned looks 408 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: up and he sees that there's a seagull, and he 409 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: declares that they're saved. Um. But then it is it 410 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: is it is brought up that seagulls only go out 411 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: to sea to die, and then the seagull die, so 412 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: they're still lost. Uh. Now, I was thinking about this 413 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: in connection with with with some of these islands, particularly 414 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: with the Hawaiian Islands. And this is a fun fun 415 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: fact of the various species of seagulls out there, and 416 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: there are many. Seagulls are not one species, they're multiple. 417 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: You'll find some of them in the Hawaiian Islands. But 418 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: a great mini goals cannot survive in Hawaii because the 419 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: islands lack the sort of shallow coastal scavenging waters that 420 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: one finds in continental settings. Some of these goals do 421 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: wind up in Hawaii, but only to starve to death 422 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: because they do not have the environment and they need 423 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: to survive. Well. That actually ties into the next thing 424 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: I wanted to mention, which is that everything we've talked 425 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: about so far is in the context of land finding 426 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: by way of local birds in a near radius to 427 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: an island, you know they live on the island, and 428 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: once you see them, you know you're near the island. 429 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: You can follow them home. But there's another use of 430 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: bird navigation entirely, which is the possibility that some ancient 431 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: Pacific islanders deduced the presence of previously unknown islands by 432 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: observing the migratory patterns of land birds. Stories like this 433 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: exist in some island sailor lore, So it seems quite 434 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: reasonable to assume that that some islands were indeed discovered 435 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: this way. But ultimately it's it's historical speculation and we 436 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: don't know for sure, but that that does seem like 437 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: a very plausible guess as to how some of these 438 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: islands were found when they had never been seen by 439 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: humans before. I should also add that, above the various 440 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: birds you could site that would give you an indication 441 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: that you were near land, the dodo the absolute best. 442 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: Once you've once you've spotted the dodo, you're good to go. 443 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,479 Speaker 1: But by the way, if you find yourself in Hawaii, 444 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: if you find yourself on the island of Oahu, I 445 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: highly recommend going to the Bishop Museum there. Um it 446 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: is it is a wonderful museum that covers so much 447 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: about Alnesian culture and uh in Hawaiian history, and it 448 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: covers some of what we're talking about here there there 449 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: there's stuff about the canoes that were used, the navigational 450 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: techniques that were used, and and so forth. So I'm 451 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: sure the Bishop Museum will come up again, but I 452 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: highly recommend it that you if you, if you visit 453 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: the islands, you you kind of owe it to yourself 454 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: to go to the Bishop Museum. All right, so we've 455 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: talked about high ground, we've talked about birds. What's next. Okay? 456 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: The next one is is fascinating to me and and 457 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 1: it is the use of clouds to find nearby land. 458 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: So you might think, well, how could you use that? 459 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: I mean, there are clouds over the open ocean. What 460 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: what would clouds tell you? But it turns out they 461 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: can tell you quite a lot. There. There is this 462 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: tradition among Pacific navigators of looking for your target by 463 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: what's known as land clouds, patterns of cloud formations that 464 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: are consistent with the presence of land rather than open water. 465 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: So how would clouds appearing over an island be any 466 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 1: different than clouds appearing anywhere else. Well, well, they're actually 467 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: a number of signs that are used. So navigators claim 468 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: first of all that clouds move more quickly over open 469 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: water and more slowly over land, almost as if they 470 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: appear to become stuck over islands that are hidden beyond 471 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: the horizon. But there are also a number of difficult 472 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: to describe characteristics that these navigators look for having to 473 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: do with the formation, appearance, and behavior of clouds over 474 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: dry land, And one example is the the telltale shapes, 475 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: specifically the eyebrows and the V shape. Both of these 476 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: are referred to, for example, by a navigator named Aberra, 477 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: that is that was extensively interviewed by by David Lewis 478 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: in his book. And so according to the navigational lore 479 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: of Aberra, uh the eyebrows meaning these I mean, I 480 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: guess I can't describe them any better than that clouds 481 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 1: that look like eyebrows appear in the sky over where 482 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: an island would be. So if they are eyebrows, you'd 483 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: imagine the island down below the horizon is sort of 484 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: where the noses or maybe where the lips are, so 485 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: it's between the two eyebrows and these eyebrow looking clouds 486 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: are more common when the weather is calm and there 487 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: are no other clouds, whereas a different formation known as 488 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: the V shape, the V shaped column is present over 489 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: islands when there is wind and when there are other clouds, 490 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: and the V shape basically the vertex of it at 491 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: the bottom points down to where the island is. But 492 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: even more fascinating than that to me is that experience 493 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: navigators mentioned that there are cues rooted in the color 494 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: of clouds. Clouds hovering over an island below the horizon, 495 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: we will tend to have different colors and levels of 496 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: brightness than clouds floating over the ocean, And apparently a 497 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: lot of this has to do with the actual reflection 498 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: of the colors of the land lying below the cloud. 499 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, this is really neat. I was 500 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: reading about this specifically as it concerns lagoons. Lagoons being 501 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: shallow bodies of water, uh, the open ocean being deep water, 502 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: and therefore the lagoon water as reflected in the cloud 503 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: will be a lighter shade of blue. Um. So yeah, 504 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,959 Speaker 1: that's so, you know, it's not like a mirror. You're 505 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 1: not gonna be like, oh look, I can see the 506 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: reflection of the entire island to which we are going. No, 507 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: but to the trained I you would be able to 508 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: see the difference in the color, like there's a lighter 509 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: blue reflected in the clouds, that that must be the 510 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: blue of the lagoons on the island. Though I should, 511 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: of course also stressed this, like a lot of the 512 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: things we're discussing here, we should add the caveat under 513 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: the right conditions exactly so none of these signs we're 514 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: talking about are always observable. Uh and and Lewis stresses 515 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: this a lot, that it requires consistent, focused attention in 516 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: looking for all of the available cues that you know about. 517 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: So looking for a few minutes you are quite likely 518 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: to see nothing to get no cues. But if an 519 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: experience navigator pays close attention for several hours, usually at 520 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: least one type of land sign will manifest. And just 521 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: to get a sense of what the the the effects 522 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: of reflected color from land on the clouds would be, like, 523 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: I want to read a section from Lewis here where 524 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: he describes some examples. So he says, quote, the colors 525 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: that begin to appear closer to land very with the 526 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: makeup of the island. There are three kinds of island 527 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: with corresponding clouds. Tita says, above lagoon islands, the cloud 528 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: roof tends to be greenish. Over extensive areas of white 529 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: sand or surf, the cloud or a portion of it 530 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: will be brighter, more white than the rest. The clouds 531 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: above a wooded green island will be darker than their neighbors. 532 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: Abera referred to a pink tinge over reefs and green 533 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: above lagoons. Re We likewise said that lagoon islands reflect green, 534 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: and ones without lagoons a reddish color. Islands with no lagoons, 535 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: like Kuria said Yo Tibata, reflect a dark color that 536 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: must be distinguished from rain cloud, which appears very similar. 537 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: Islands with big stretches of dry reef or mangroves have 538 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: bright colored clouds above them. And then he mentions that 539 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: given the fact that all of the stuff he's just 540 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: been saying comes from different interviews with different navigators from 541 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: different islands, and with four separate interpreters transcribing what they 542 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: were saying, uh, the fact that they're so consistent in 543 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: what they say about the colors reflected in the clouds 544 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: is pretty amazing. Now there's another very important thing that 545 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: I'm not going to spend a lot of time on, 546 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: just because we discussed it somewhat in our previous episode 547 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: and now in the last episode we talked about feeling 548 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: for swells in the sea as a way of direction finding, 549 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: but also a navigator can feel for the reflection, refraction 550 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: and interference with swells with no notion swells to detect 551 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: that land is nearby. And Lewis goes into deep detail 552 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: on this practice in his book. But essentially it's it's 553 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: a similar to feeling to direction finding with the help 554 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: of swells, except feeling for interruptions and swells and reflections 555 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: of swells from known land masses. But there's one last 556 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: thing I wanted to talk about here that is really 557 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: interesting and almost kind of creepy, especially because it is 558 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: to some degree still mysterious, though there there's some ideas 559 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: about what it might be. Uh. So we've talked, you know, 560 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: at length before about bioluminescence in the ocean, you know, 561 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: kind of that is a regular profuse light in the 562 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: water from organisms like bioluminescent plankton and uh and Lewis 563 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: recounts in the book that some navigators say that bioluminescence 564 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: in the water just doesn't tell you much useful. Other 565 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: sources seem to think it increases when near near land 566 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: or a reef. But in any case, it's important to 567 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: distinguish regular bioluminescence in the water from this next land sign, 568 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: which is fascinating. And it's what David Lewis calls d phosphorescence. 569 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: But it is also known as ta lapa spelled t 570 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: E space l A p A. The navigator Tevak calls this, 571 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: calls it underwater lightning. It's also described by another navigator 572 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: as ulo a tahi or the glory of the seas. 573 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: And so I wanna read Lewis describing what this is. 574 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: He's just picking up after tek has has called it 575 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: underwater lightning, which he thinks is an excellent analogy, and 576 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: Lewis writes quote, it comprises streaks, flashes, and momentarily glowing 577 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: plaques of light, all well beneath the surface, exactly like lightning. 578 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: It flickers and darts and is in constant motion. It 579 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: occurs a good deal deeper down than common luminescence, at 580 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: anything from a foot or two to more than a fathom, 581 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: all right, So that's already strange because you know, otherwise 582 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: I'd never heard of anything like that anymore, flashes of 583 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: light from deep under the water, almost like lightning. But 584 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: it gets even weirder. Apparently, tailapa seems to flash from 585 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: the direction of an island or a reef. You can 586 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: see it well into the deep sea when you're eighty 587 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: two a hundred miles away from land, but as you 588 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: approach the island, the flashes of light become more and 589 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: more rare, and then they disappear entirely as you get 590 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: really close. The distance from land or from reefs also 591 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: seems to affect how the light moves. They're slow flashes 592 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: of light far out at sea, but then about ten 593 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: to twenty miles from land it starts to take on 594 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: a rapid, whipping back and forth movement. And uh and 595 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: it's also generally understood that tai lapa coming from reefs 596 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: is slower moving than tai lapa coming from islands. So 597 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: this was amazing to me because I had never heard 598 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: of anything like this before. Yeah, yeah, this was definitely 599 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: new to me as well. Um, and it is mysterious 600 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: sound and the idea of underwater bioluminescent lightning being some 601 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: sort of guide again, like all of these things, not 602 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: the primary guide, but some additional tool that you could 603 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: turn to. Right. Well, one thing I want to note 604 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: what you said, it's the tailapa is bioluminescent, which it 605 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: may well might be, but it might be some other 606 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: kind of luminescence as well. It's still there's still some 607 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: question about what causes it, and we'll discuss that more 608 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: in a minute. But uh, but yeah, I think it's 609 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: not a given that it's necessarily bioluminescent, like the you know, 610 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: the like the general sort of ambient glow that you 611 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: see in the upper area of the sea that's known 612 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: to be bioluminescent. But it's important that what you say 613 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: that this is very much a backup method and it's 614 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: not known to everyone. So Lewis documented references to it 615 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: in the navigational lore from two Polynesian areas and one 616 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: Micronesian area, but there were plenty of other navigators who 617 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: didn't seem to know anything about te Lapa, like they've 618 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: never even heard of this concept. Yeah. One of the people, 619 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: the more recent people that we were looking at concerning 620 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: this topic, is a Harvard physicist by the name of 621 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: John huth Um and uh, and he points out that, yeah, 622 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: and cultures you just see no mention of it, the 623 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: Marshall Islands being one that he specifically mentions where they 624 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: just didn't didn't have the concept. And and it's unknown 625 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: exactly why is it an environmental reason, like whatever this 626 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: phenomena is, it's not it wasn't present, uh, you know 627 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: around the Marshall Islands or islands that were of interest 628 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: to these navigators, or is it a situation where for 629 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: this particular culture they found that this was not a 630 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 1: reliable navigational tool and it just wasn't worth keeping around, 631 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: Like it's not one you could lean heavily on and 632 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: it would always be just kind of like a second 633 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: or third tier backup. Anyway, it remains a mystery. Yeah, yeah, 634 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: So some islanders explained that as this backup method of navigation, 635 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,240 Speaker 1: they could use t LAPA to steer on dark, rainy nights. 636 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: So maybe you can't see the stars, you can perhaps 637 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 1: see these flashes of underwater lightning. And Lewis actually documents 638 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,879 Speaker 1: that he himself observed it. That was one night when 639 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: it was late at night and it was dark and 640 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: he was sailing with Tevak. This was on the thirty 641 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: one December, he writes, quote Land Lapa was seen to 642 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,479 Speaker 1: be darting to and fro along two distinct bearings, which 643 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: were both plain enough for me to see despite the 644 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: clear night and the comparative nearness of the islands. One 645 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: series kept flashing from a direction which tevk averred was 646 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: that of the volcano Tina Coula. The other, he said 647 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: was from the island of Nadeni. Morning revealed the high 648 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 1: islands of Tina Coola and Nadini, each about twenty miles 649 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: away and respectively west and south of our position. These 650 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: were the directions that the old navigator had indicated. So 651 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: in this experience, he says, yep I saw it. Tek 652 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: told me it was there. I looked and I saw it, 653 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: and it was in the directions of the islands, just 654 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 1: like he said it would be. And so Louis did 655 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: believe he was the first person to document this navigational 656 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: sign in print. Of course, it was known before him 657 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: to to the people who possessed to a part of 658 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: their navigational lore. But he believed that this phenomenon had 659 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: no European definition and uh. And of course, again not 660 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: all navigators in the Pacific Islands were aware of Talapa, 661 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: but some were from at least three distinct regions that 662 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: he that he interviewed navigators from, and it was interpreted 663 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: and it turned out to provide accurate information. So what 664 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: was it? What's causing these flashes of light underneath the 665 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: water from the direction of islands or reefs, Lewis ultimately 666 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: says in the book. And then again, this was in 667 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: seventy two, so we may have developed some knowledge since then. 668 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: But Louis said he really didn't know what it was, 669 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: and he guessed that it may have had something to 670 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: do with deep swell movement, maybe a kind of deep 671 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: reflection of waves from islands or reefs. But that leaves 672 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: a lot of lingering questions. Why why if it's bouncing 673 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: off of these islands or reefs, why could it be 674 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: seen at such great distances from land, albeit moving more slowly. 675 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: And one thing that I that I found so I 676 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: was reading a Harvard Gazette article about the work of 677 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: that physicist you mentioned, John Huth, who had done some 678 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: follow up work on this, and Uh. This Gazette article 679 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: mentioned that many scholars disputed Lewis's reports of the Tailapa quote. 680 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: The lights were initially dismissed as fantasy when other researchers 681 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: reported that they were unable to see them. Some critics 682 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: who said thought that pursuing quote underwater lightning was akin 683 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: to chasing the abominable snowman. Yeah. John Huth seems to 684 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: have done a fair amount of work dealing with with 685 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: Ti Lapa. And one when the source that I was 686 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: reading was the article conclusions a cross disciplinary Journey through 687 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: Spatial Orientation by who, published in the journal Structure and 688 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: Dynamics in sixteen and this he points out that there 689 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,800 Speaker 1: is still no definitive explanation for the origin of Ti Lapa. 690 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: But one possibility that that he seems so like, is 691 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: that it's a byproduct of fish darting in a patch 692 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: of sea rich with uh dino of flageolets, which emit 693 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: light in response to the stimuli of pressure waves. But 694 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: even if that is the case, he says, then it 695 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: still leaves a mystery of the directionality of the fish 696 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: movements themselves. You know why, and how can we navigate 697 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: by this information? Right? What if that's the explanation why 698 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: would it point to islands in a reliable way? Right? 699 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: And Uh, one of the challenges and researching is hoothpoints 700 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: out is that the just the difficulty of rooper reproducing sightings, 701 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: we need further studies which require both sensitive equipment and 702 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: dependable sightings of the phenomena. Um and and again he 703 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: pointed to the fact that you don't actually see it 704 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: as a navigational aid in some cultures, uh, such as 705 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: the Marshall Islands, raising questions of you know, is this cultural? 706 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: Is it environmental? And it's simply unknown. Um. Uh so yeah, 707 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: it's it's it's really fascinating. And again it it it. 708 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 1: I think it serves to just remindersels, Yeah, we're dealing 709 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: with the suite of different navigational techniques and and if 710 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: this is among the tools at your disposal, then you know, 711 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 1: perhaps it is useful in in deciding like fine tuning 712 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: your your your directional approach. But perhaps for some of 713 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 1: some cultures they abandon it because it did not seem 714 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: useful enough. We just don't know. I mean, I'm pretty 715 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: convinced that people are actually observing this, that it's not 716 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: just a fantasy. And I mean not only because it 717 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: is part of the navigational lore and seems to have 718 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: been used as this backup method of direction finding. But 719 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: also because I mean, there are additional modern reports of 720 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: people saying, yeah, I actually did see it, even if 721 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: I was not able to photograph it. For example, I 722 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: found an article by a scholar named Marianne George who 723 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: is a cultural anthropologist who uh talks about this in 724 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: an article called Polynesian Navigation and Ta Lapa the Flashing 725 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: published in Time and Mind, the Journal of Archaeology, Consciousness, 726 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: and Culture from twelve and she also talks about having 727 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 1: been able to eventually witness it herself out on the ocean. 728 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: But I don't think you can find video of it. 729 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody has ever captured it like that, 730 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: So it's still a very interesting question. Than now, one 731 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 1: of the really interesting things concerning all of this again 732 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 1: is the idea that in modern times, reacher researchers have 733 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: had to fit a lot of this back together, you know, 734 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: depending on genetics and linguistics and oral histories, etcetera, all 735 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: these various disciplines and as discussed in multiple places, but 736 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,839 Speaker 1: specifically you see this discussed at the Bishop Museum both 737 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: the physical museum and the online presence. You also see 738 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: a discussed at at the website for Hokulea. UH. That's 739 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: how that's um Ata dot com. That is h O 740 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: k U l E H plus v. A is that 741 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: you saw something rather interesting concerning deep sea voyages in 742 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: Hawaiian culture. And I believe I mentioned this is one 743 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: of the previous episodes, and that is that deep sea 744 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: voyages in Hawaii had been extinct for several hundred years. Uh. 745 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: This was before contact with Europeans. The period of long 746 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,800 Speaker 1: voyages ended along with all contact with other Polynesian islands, 747 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: and they lived in near complete isolation until seventeen seventy eight. 748 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 1: Now there remained memories of the the age of long 749 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 1: voyages and stories of their origins, of of the the 750 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: origin of the Hawaiian people um and their waves of 751 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: migration from Tahiti, which is two thousand, five hundred miles away. 752 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: But again, the exact art of deep sea voyages had 753 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: not been practiced for quite some time. Meanwhile, some Europeans 754 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: formed their own ideas about how humans could have possibly 755 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: made it out to such far flung islands. We mentioned 756 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: this uh in passing. You know the idea that it 757 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: was surely, surely by accident that these ancient sailors made 758 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: their way to these various islands, right, the idea that 759 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: new islands would have always been discovered and initially colonized 760 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: by people who got lost, were you know, blown away 761 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: in storms, random drifts basically, and again, modern scholarships has 762 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: turned away from that idea that, of course there would 763 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,280 Speaker 1: probably be some cases of islands being discovered by accident, 764 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: but also a lot of cases of deliberate exploratory ventures. 765 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,080 Speaker 1: Now there are also some outliers such as thor hair 766 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: dolls hypothesis that South American sailors made the voyage. He 767 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,360 Speaker 1: famously tried and failed to prove this. But yeah, the 768 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,240 Speaker 1: predominant theory for a long time with the Polynesian sailors 769 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: just simply didn't have the skill to make the journey 770 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,879 Speaker 1: and they either rode the wind currents and or were 771 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: blown off course and arrived at the Hawaiian islands by accident. 772 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: But then in nineteen seventy three, the Polynesian Voyaging Society 773 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 1: formed to challenge this theory. Uh Dr Ben of Finny 774 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: Herb Collinui Kane and Tommy Holmes aimed to put together 775 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: a team to build a traditional deep sea voyaging Hawaiian 776 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: canoe and sail it from the Hawaiian Islands to Tahiti. Now, 777 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: one of the challenging parts in all this was simply 778 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: finding a traditional sailing mass. Again, especially when you're dealing 779 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: with Hawaiian culture, this is this is something of a 780 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: forgotten science at the uh so it had not been 781 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: practiced in a while. So they ended up going with 782 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: a particular individual by the name of of maut Paie 783 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: long Um who lived nineteen thirty two through two thousand ten, 784 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: a man from the Micronesian island of Sodawall. He'd been 785 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: trained from an early age and the traditional techniques of 786 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: of navigation environmental navigation, and he proved an essential part 787 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: of this whole experiment and is still remembered as a 788 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: major figure both in the academic exploration of of Hawaiian history, 789 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: Polynesian history, uh and and Oceanic culture, but also just 790 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: a sort of something of a cultural hero as well. 791 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: So the story of of Hoka is really fascinating and 792 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 1: they've been whole documentaries about it. They have a wonderful website, 793 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: But essentially they build a sixty two ft long, nineteen 794 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:56,919 Speaker 1: foot wide double holed canoe or waakula and they called 795 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 1: it um. They called the vessel um hokule uh named 796 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: for an important navigational star. It's the star of Gladness, 797 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: also known as our Tourists and the brightest star in 798 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: the Boaties constellation. While the ship's construction also made use 799 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,839 Speaker 1: of plywood, fiberglass and resin UH and it was accompanied 800 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:20,320 Speaker 1: by a modern vessel, um Klea itself was completely unpowered, 801 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 1: and even more importantly, navigation was attempted without the use 802 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 1: of any technology or devices, at least on the way 803 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: to Tahiti. Um for the return trip, they did use 804 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: some instruments, uh, but they just yeah, they depended on 805 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,359 Speaker 1: the traditional navigation practices that maultpie Loon brought with him. 806 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,799 Speaker 1: And so on May one six they set out from 807 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: Honolulu Bay on Maui and traveled thirty three days UH 808 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: to Papa Atta Harbor in Tahiti. And they also brought 809 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: along with them livestock to study how these could be 810 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 1: cared for at sea, because as we mentioned, you know, 811 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: canoe species were a key part of the equation. It's 812 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,919 Speaker 1: not just could you could you voyage to this eye 813 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 1: land or these islands, but could you bring the species 814 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 1: with you that you needed to survive? Yeah, and and 815 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 1: it was a success. Again, they did use instruments on 816 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 1: the return trip, but at that point they had already 817 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,000 Speaker 1: proved what was possible, and multiple voyages have been completed 818 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: since then to further prove all of this out. Now, 819 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 1: an interesting wrinkle in all of this um is that 820 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,839 Speaker 1: during the ninety nineties, the Bishop Museums Native Hawaiian Arts 821 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 1: and Culture Program, they set out to create an authentic 822 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 1: version of this sort of vessel using only traditional and 823 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 1: native material. So again you know, not the fiberglass and 824 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 1: so forth. But they said, let's build one like would 825 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,400 Speaker 1: have been built um historically. And they found that the 826 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: native CoA trees of the islands were too small due 827 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: to human activities, so they ultimately that they had to 828 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 1: they had to go beyond the islands in order to 829 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 1: get the wood to build the canoe. They were ultimately 830 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: gifted four hundred year old spruce logs from a tribe 831 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:58,879 Speaker 1: in southeast Alaska and use those to construct the vessel. Yeah. 832 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: So anyway, I I I highly recommend looking into the 833 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 1: Hocal Layout project. Their website, various documentaries about what they 834 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: did and and and continue to do. I thought it 835 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: is my understanding that the vessel was still functional, still operational, 836 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: and they still uh they still take it out. This 837 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: whole series has been one of those uh episodes on 838 00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,440 Speaker 1: the show where I'm just amazed because I, uh, this 839 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: is something I knew absolutely nothing about to start with. 840 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,800 Speaker 1: I would not have known the very first thing about 841 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 1: like how you navigate on the open sea without instruments. 842 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 1: I mean to be honest, I don't know how you 843 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 1: do it with instruments either, but but uh, but yeah, 844 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 1: this is this has been so eye opening, uh, just 845 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: thinking about like how much information you can get from 846 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,720 Speaker 1: the environment if you know, if you've when you build 847 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: on the knowledge accumulated over generations and you have the 848 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 1: discipline and the attention to pay attention to your surroundings 849 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: with this level of care. Yeah, as certainly as as 850 00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 1: a landsman, as Hermon and Melville would put it. And 851 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: then is by all this, but but I think it's 852 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: also worth with pointing out that you know, we've touched 853 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,280 Speaker 1: on experienced sailors who have been very into this topic 854 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: as well, have been amazed by it as well so, 855 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: uh yeah, there's there's a lot to marvel at here. 856 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,239 Speaker 1: All right. Well, there you have it. We hope you 857 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,239 Speaker 1: have enjoyed this journey if we've enjoyed a researching and 858 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,839 Speaker 1: discussing it. If you would like to listen to other 859 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, you can find 860 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 1: them in the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed 861 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: which you're good wherever you get your podcast. Core episodes 862 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 1: air on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We run a short form 863 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,640 Speaker 1: artifact on Wednesday's listener Man on Monday's. On Friday's we 864 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: do Weird How Cinema. That's our time to set aside 865 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,120 Speaker 1: the science and the culture for the most part and 866 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: talk about a weird picture. And then we have on 867 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 1: the weekends a rerun. But yeah, just to find us 868 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:44,600 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast, You can also go to 869 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com and that will 870 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 1: shoot you to the I heart listing for our page 871 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:50,759 Speaker 1: wherever you go if they give you the power to 872 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,759 Speaker 1: do so, just rate, review and subscribe huge things As 873 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If 874 00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:58,960 Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with 875 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: feedback on theisode or any other to suggest topic for 876 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: the future, just to say hello. You can email us 877 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:14,560 Speaker 1: at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 878 00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 879 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i 880 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,440 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to 881 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.