WEBVTT - Should You Sleep Train? We Investigate 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:08.760 Hi everybody, and welcome to Katie's Crib. In this episode, 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:14.320 we are talking about babies and sleep, sleep training, scheduling 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:17.279 on demand. We are going to investigate this big and 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:21.200 for a lot of people, a very controversial subject. We 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:23.360 have here a friend of mine by the name of 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.000 Susie Menke's and she works with a company that she 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.280 started called Healthy Little Sleepers here in Los Angeles. She's 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:31.400 the founder and she's going to talk to us about 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.760 sleep training. Hi. Susie, Hi, I'm so happy to have 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:40.120 you here. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Um. 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:42.120 I never heard about sleep training. I never knew what 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:43.360 it was, and then I had a baby, and then 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:45.880 it was all of a sudden, all everybody was talking about. 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.760 Can you walk us through the very simple question of 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.840 what is sleep training? What is sleep training? Such a 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:57.360 good question because oftentimes people don't know about it until 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.440 you actually have a baby. And there's this thing leap training. 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.920 You have to train your baby to sleep. Um, So 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:08.080 it's basically just making changes in your baby's sleep habits 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:11.200 so that they can learn to sell soup. So a 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:13.920 lot of times we come home from the hospital they're newborn, 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.039 we're there for them we're doing it for them. But 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.720 at some point, and it's typically around four months of age, 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:24.040 is when there's circadian rhythms start coming into play. What's that? Basically, 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:28.240 they're what is the word circadian rhythms start, you're smart 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.759 circadian rhythms? Okay, they're sleep rhythms, um. And it's set 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:33.400 by the rising and setting of the sun, and so 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.280 that's where you get kind of those sleep schedules that 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.360 people talk about, that nine and one nap and things 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.000 like that, um. But really what happens is that four 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:48.160 months of ages, they've become already accustomed to some associations 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.040 to sleep. So whether you're nursing them to sleep, whether 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:55.360 you're rocking them to sleep, dark room, dark room, there's 0:01:55.360 --> 0:02:00.840 all of it. So there's associations of all involved with 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.640 sleeping that they may need to unlearn and learn to 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.600 sell soothe, and so that's where we come in and 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:12.160 try to do sleep learning for them and by self soothing. 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.600 To clarify that, you mean, like the baby, he or 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:18.520 she has her own tools to put her or himself 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.280 to sleep. Right. So sleep is a science, right, So 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.840 it's a balancing of hormones. Melatonin is a sleep hormone 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.080 that we produce um, and we don't really start producing 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.519 it until we're three or four months of age. So 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:33.840 that's where you get that day night confusion. Before that, 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.320 they're up during. Yeah, it's in case you didn't know 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.240 where you're freaking out. Babies come out and they lived 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:41.880 in a dark place for ten months and then all 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:43.919 of a sudden we're telling them like, oh the sun's down, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.120 the sun's up, but they have no idea, and a 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:47.799 lot of babies, even when I first come out, which 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.040 I didn't know until I was going through myself, it's reversed, 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.240 so they could be up for some reason. Wow, they 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.560 are napping the hell out of this day. But at 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:58.880 nighttime it's like the most energy you've ever seen. And 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.639 it's because you're saying until month three or four, they 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.200 don't know. They don't go by the sun yet, they 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.720 don't go by those rhythms. Yet, they don't produce melatonin. 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:11.040 The one thing that we do is produce melatonin, and 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.960 so melatonin in our breast milk is actually highest in 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.360 the evenings. So if you are nursing, you have that 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.240 benefit to give them nighttime bread smelt. I am rather 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:24.880 than night mind blown right now again? Oh God, I 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.959 love Katie's grib selfishly because I get lessons like in 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:32.480 motherhood on the regular, which is so great. Um wow, Okay, 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.360 why do you think sleeve training is such a controversial 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.160 and heated topic amongst parents. It is. It's often misguided 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:43.240 sometimes by um, like a fear tactic don't let your 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:48.400 baby cry um. And there is that kind of almost 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.040 like breastfeeding. There's that controversy to breastfeed or not to 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:57.760 breast fresh and stigers attached judgment like this makes me aod. Now, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:03:59.800 this makes you a bad mom. Sure, if you're gonna 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:02.960 let your baby cry, you're harming your baby. Right. There's 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.680 a level of stress that's involved in learning a new tactic. 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.920 But the American Academy of Pediatrics is something that we 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.120 follow as sleep consultants, and they actually put a framework 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.080 together of stress that's really a good guideline to think 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.000 about stress and what you are doing or not doing 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.880 for your baby. Right. So, there's a positive stress response, 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.800 which is a typical frustration, struggling, starting daycare, all those 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.440 are typical stress responses. There's a tolerable stress response, which 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.560 is more of something that's not every day, maybe a divorce, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.240 a death in the family, and then there's toxic stress 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:41.080 response where um, you don't have a loving caregifter, there's abuse, 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:43.960 there's neglecting fault, right, So those are the leve That 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:47.000 toxic level is what we're talking about, being harmful and 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:52.680 damaging to the brain. That's not what sleep training is about, right, Um. 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:56.679 And you're not equating sleep training with abuse, right right. 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.920 So that's where this kind of misguided information comes from. 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:04.560 Of sleep training is involved with levels of stress. Yes, 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.880 they're learning a new habit and it's hard for any 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.559 of us to change something, so it's kind of dealing 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:13.640 with that. You have a stable environment, you have a 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.160 loving caregiver to help you cope through that stress. Right. 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.880 We don't say here, go go learn how to sleep 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:22.240 and walk away right one. We do it for them first, 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.040 we do it with them, we watch them do it, 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.720 and then they do it on their own. Whoa, guys, 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.960 that was just like a real SmackDown. Yeah. I definitely 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.840 personally had You know, I went back to work when 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.760 Albi was seven weeks old, and for me, sleep was 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:44.359 literally like a number one priority list because I couldn't 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.920 memorize my lines, show up at work, look remotely like 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.520 I was a sane person and not like a garbage 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.719 bag and not get my sleep. And so I remember 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.640 the first times I, you know, was told it's okay 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:03.080 to let him make annoy kind of cry as sounds 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.120 for two or three minutes. Wait a minute, let's see 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.599 what he does. And he's going to start to teach himself, 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:09.640 find his thumb or if you're a pacifier person or 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.800 whatever it is, find tools with which to put himself 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.159 to sleep. And I did have those thoughts termittive of like, 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:21.039 am I subconsciously damaging my baby that he's going to 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:22.920 be in therapy for a million years because of me? 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:24.920 Because I let him cry for three minutes And you're 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.040 saying that is a stress that is not damaging. No. Plus, 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:31.800 he's in the stable environment. I was watching that monitor 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.280 hawk and counting down the second. And you're there when 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:37.719 he wakes up, or you're there to feed him, to 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.080 love him, to play with him. You know, he's in 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.760 that environment. He is. You're building that secure attachment in 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:46.200 those first four four to six months. So that's what 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.760 you're doing. It's good to hear that I have. And 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.920 there's also atroversy. And I think there's also controversy and 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.680 that if you do sleep train around four between four 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:02.560 and six months, that there is that stigma of um 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.680 that you'r harm and your baby it's too soon, is 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:07.920 not enough weight? What do you say about those sort 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:12.280 of situations? Is there a set rule of when, how 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.320 how much weight? All these things? And again I don't 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:15.960 really know what I'm talking about. These are like literally 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.480 rumors that have flown into my head. Typically, PD I 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.040 always say, go by your pediatrician. Where are they on 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.440 the spectrum in terms of weight wise, and or are 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.160 they gaining weight? Um? You know, if they're born early, 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.480 sometimes you have to wait a bit longer because you 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.800 really want to go by their developmental age, which is 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.640 based on their do date, not when they're born. Um, 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:39.320 So if they're early, you might have to wait another 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:43.000 two weeks or three sure. Um. Pediatricians often have kind 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.000 of a fourteen pound rule. Um. If I get a 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.360 client with a twelve thirteen pound baby, but they're feeding well, 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.200 they're gaining weight, I'm not gonna turn them away. Um, 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.840 because they are developmentally ready, they are producing melatonin, they 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.240 are their circadian rhythms are in place. They do have 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.880 social smiles UM, which develop around six to eight weeks 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.200 of age, which is a prime example of when to 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:10.400 set routines in place. Because social smiles is a connection. 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:15.800 They are making connections and associations interesting. Can you UM 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:17.960 talk to us about some of the different methods of 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.640 sleep training that parents use. Is there a particular one 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:22.680 that you recommend as it depend on the baby and 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.720 the issue at hand, UM, So there's no one particular 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.120 method that I use. I often take a look at 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:30.920 the baby, and you know, the parent is the expert 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:32.640 on their baby, so I get a lot of information 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.360 from the parents, UM, their age, what's been going on before, 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.400 anything has been tried before, how long have they tried it. 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.960 I've been trained by the Family Sleep Institute, which doesn't 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.800 have one particular method that they were trained in all 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.760 of them UM, and it's sometimes a combination of them. 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.440 There's a Ferbor method which is like a check and console. 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.520 There is the sleep wave by Kim West. I believe 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.679 there is cried out, which is extinction. Where is the 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:02.680 true cried out? You put your baby in your bed, 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:04.839 in their crib, you leave the room, You come back 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:11.439 the next morning, assuming there's no night feeds, assuming and 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.160 you still can do sleep training with a night feed 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.640 And that's the one that moms say, like they did 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:19.480 that for two or three nights and then they never 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.920 did it again. Like is that true? I didn't have 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:23.560 to do that, So I don't know if I wouldn't 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.439 even be built of the stuff that could do it. 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:31.640 It's not for the faint of heart. I did it 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.360 with my first Um, how many nights did it take? 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.560 And how long was the crying? Do you know? Minutes? No? 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:41.480 I opened a bottle of wine and I cried and 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.760 watched the monitor and thirty minutes he was asleep. Wow. 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.280 The next night it was like maybe ten minutes. Okay, 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:51.400 So that's the cryed out method. What's the verber Berberber method? 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:53.959 What is that? So that is a check and console. 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.959 So you put your baby down to sleep, he starts crying. 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.400 Five minutes, you go and check on him. You don't 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.080 pick him up, her up. Um, you say a little, 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:04.160 it's okay, we're here, it's time to sleep, and you 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.080 leave the room and then you can wait ten minutes 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:09.520 and then you go in after tens I mean it 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.400 can be another five. You can do lights of like 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:14.760 going in every five minutes and just using your voice 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:18.360 and your presence to console them, but you don't touch them. 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:20.840 And then the next two nights or whatever it is 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.200 that's comfortable for you, then you might extend to you 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.400 wait ten minutes before you go in the room. I 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:27.320 have a friend that did that exactly. And then what's 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.640 the other method that you say. There's a chair method, 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.280 which is a little bit more gentle approach. So you're 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.360 in the room with them. Um. It takes a little 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:38.120 bit longer in terms of, you know, getting out of 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.880 the room and being able. So you start next to 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.160 the crib in a chair or on the floor. It's 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.120 like the chairman um, and you're there. You can first 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:49.880 couple of days, you can use your hands on them, 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.120 but you don't want any like any other rhythm involved 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:54.320 because you don't want to start another association for them 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.160 to get attached to. So you keep it minimal interaction. 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.040 But you're there for them, and when they fall asleep, 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.360 you leave the room. When they cry again, you come 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:03.240 back into that position and you do the same thing 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:07.640 without picking your baby up. Wow. And and then you 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:09.880 slowly move the next two days or maybe in the 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.000 middle of the room. Then you're not doing touching, it's 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.280 just your voice. The next two days you move again 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.040 and maybe your three quarters the way of the room. 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:18.400 Then you're at the door. Then you're outside the door, 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.520 and then and then kind of like slowly slowly introducing 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.920 that they are safe in this space, that you are 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:28.200 here until I'm not here physically, but I am here 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.960 to hear me, but I am here. WHOA, that's this 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.800 is all god motherhood. You've got to be a beast 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:38.960 like this is so so fascinating. Um, do you have 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:43.040 any advice for what parents can say when I don't know. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.280 I do feel like this is like breastfeeding, like you 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.960 brought it up already. It's just a very judgy topic. Um. 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.640 I can remember very early on, like my baby was 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:54.200 sleeping to the night at eight weeks, or like the 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.679 other version, which is like, oh my gosh, I I 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.920 honestly do not believe in sleep train until they are 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.120 six months of age and fifteen pounds and that is 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.960 cruel to be doing. I've heard all sides of the spectrum, 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.920 and people are not afraid to give their opinion and 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.520 their advice. So what would you suggest for parents that 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.440 are I don't know. I might have that are picking 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.679 whatever it is they're picking and how to stick with it, 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.560 or I think finding the support, um, whether it's their husband, 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:25.440 their friend, their family. Sometimes family has different opinions though. Um. 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.560 I've had clients who was like, I didn't tell my 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:29.240 mom I was doing this or my dad I was 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.120 doing this, And there's the mom and dad calling and 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:32.640 I'm at their house and they're not picking up. And 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.839 then she's saying, oh, shoot, my sister probably told them, 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.480 and that's why they're calling. You know, they know you're here. Um, 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.640 So they got to find where they can find that support. 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.840 And sometimes that's me, right. Um. I work with families 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.280 on a two week period when they hired me, so 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:50.080 I'm there for them for two So that how it 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.160 works with a sleep consultant. You get hired for a 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.880 two week period and you work with that family closely 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:57.760 and hopefully in that two weeks you see a bunch 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.720 of improvement as far as sleep is concerned. Yeah. I 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.239 have to say sleeping, even to this day is probably 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:08.200 the only really touchy subject where Adam and I, my 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.280 husband and I, we really sometimes butt heads, which is 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:15.040 when we put the baby down and he's making fussy sounds. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:21.080 Um it's like someone screaming in my head, Like it's 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.240 so loud to me that I'm not going in there. 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.480 And the seconds go by like years, and my husband 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.800 just has a way higher threshold for like it's only 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.280 in fifteen minutes. He's going to put himself down. He 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.040 always does. He does it every night. He's gonna put 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:36.280 himself down. And I'm like, no, no no, no, no, no, no 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:37.959 no no no. Tonight is different, it sounds different. It 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:42.120 is just it's just taking forever. And and to be clear, 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:46.680 he's going he's not screaming crying at all. He's either 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:50.199 has gas or he's like getting tired and expressing himself. 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.800 But I have to say even to this day that 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:58.359 that is a husband wife dilemma for me, for our family, absolutely, 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:02.280 And I work with family couples that way because there 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.720 are differing opinions about what to do and kind of 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.840 coming to an agreement in the middleground and having that 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.760 plan and being able to have that plan for both 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.000 of them to work off of and the caregivers too. 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:20.680 So you're like a therapist to the middle woman. Um, So, 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.040 at what age would you say a sleep routine is established. Um, 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.840 so I touched on this early around six to eight weeks. Um. 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.480 Just a routine, right, not sleep training. Right. We're not 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.120 trying to get them to sleep on their own, um, 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.440 but they are. When you see social smiles, they are 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.080 making connections. So when you put those pre bedtime routines 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:43.640 in place, it's their sense of routine and structure that 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.360 sleep is around the corner. Right. And that's when I 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.040 was told like this is when you might introduce a 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.200 bath routine and then like a song or a book, 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.400 or the lights change or the white noise sound comes up. 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.640 But you get into this like sort of ritual routine 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:00.840 that they can associate with. Now, I'm going to sleep 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.400 for the night, right, and and and naps too. You 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.400 can do a shortened version for now do and it 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:10.560 helps so helps increase that melatonin levels because their bodies 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:12.960 and their mind are already getting ready for sleep because 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.760 those routines are starting, and so that melatonin is starting 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.280 to get produced. Great. Um, is it ever too late 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.760 to start? Like do you ever get phone calls from 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.440 babies that are are not sleeping through the night at 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.200 one and a half too? It's never too late. It's 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.680 it's a lot easier when you start early because you 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:36.120 just have certain pattern patterns and rhythms um that are 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:40.800 in place. Um. So when you start sleep training a 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.640 little bit later, um, there's just a little bit bigger 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.920 of an adjustment. UM. Maybe a little bit more protest 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:53.120 because they're verbal. Um. So you put, so, what are 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.880 the benefits of sleep training? And you know, if I 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.560 was playing Devil's Advocate, here are there benefits to just 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.040 reading the baby's cues and just letting the baby sleep 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.880 when they're ready. That's probably like nails on a chalkboard too, 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:08.080 But no, I mean for our listeners and viewers who 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.000 are like truly, because there are so many stigmas attached. 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.600 So sleep training is important both for the parents and 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.880 for the child because sleep deprivation is hard on us. 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.040 We can't function as well. We're going to fight more 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.160 with our partner, We're going to be testy during the day, 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.720 we won't remember things as well. We don't have pregnancy brain. 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.760 It's going to be like mom right not yeah, yeah, 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:35.560 the same thing, um yeah, continuous um. So, and what 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.960 happens in sleep, especially in the first four to five 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:43.360 hours of sleep um is non ari em sleep. It's 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.400 the most important sleep we get. It's when our brain 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:51.040 shrinks and our toxins are flushed out, so that sleep 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.400 is most important to get consolidated, which is get them 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:56.680 to sleep from like seven to twelve. And then that's 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:58.600 when we say, if you're still having a feeding at night, 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.280 have it after midnight. WHOA, Okay, I was doing that 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:07.320 in the early days. Okay, okay, okay. So sleep training, 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.320 you would say, is so beneficial because it's important to 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.879 get them to have quality, uninterrupted sleep that's where their 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.920 brain develops. And also so that we don't just jump 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.280 off a crazy drain of insanity because it's just so 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:23.160 hard to be I mean, I've never been so sleep 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:24.520 deprived in my whole life. I thought I was gonna 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.720 lose my mind. Um. And on the flip side, right, 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.280 just following your baby's cute, right, Yes, So that works 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.560 great if you have a flexible sleeper, and sometimes you 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.480 just fall naturally into that pattern and that's when you 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:40.040 get like, oh yeah, my baby sleep and at eight 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:41.800 weeks you're like, right, you have a uniform baby. Thanks 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.640 a lot, you know, right, Um, But it goes hand 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.439 in hand, right, So the parenting style and the baby's 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.160 flexibility just matched up and they got into a good 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.320 rhythm um and it just it happens naturally, and so 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.639 they're able to follow those babies cubes. Sometimes babies have colic, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.560 sometimes they have reflux. Sometimes the parents are working, so 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:03.399 there's a lot of other things juggling and to follow 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:08.800 your baby's cues um necessarily doesn't always work. And that was, yeah, 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.040 that was my case. Like I remember going back at 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.080 seven weeks to work and emailing my nursing schedule to 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.520 carry Washington work because she was the director of the episode, 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:20.520 and I had to feed albeit six nine twelve three six, 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.480 and I had to know that he was going to 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.560 be waking up from his nap at that time, that 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:27.800 I was going to be allowed to go back to 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:29.840 my trailer at that time to feed my kids. So 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:34.200 for me, it really helped knowing that he naps from 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:35.879 a thirty to ten in the morning. At ten, I 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.520 feed him, then he naps again from eleven thirty to one. 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:40.560 At one, I feed him, and then he napped again 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:42.600 so in the morning, you know, so the early stages, 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:44.760 it was very helpful. Now it's funny that I find 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:46.800 that I'm off and he's in a routine already. His 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.120 naps are sort of changing, and I've become far more 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.800 flexible in sort of experimenting, like not waking him up 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.680 from a nap and seeing how long he goes because 0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:58.520 I think he's trying to tell me something that his 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.760 naps are. Maybe we're going to drop a nap, Maybee. 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:03.560 You know, we're going to go from four naps to 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:05.560 three naps to two naps, you know so. But I'm 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:09.080 also off, so I have some of the you know it, really, 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.640 you're right. It depends on the schedule and what your 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:15.240 baby thrives on. And he's already in a great routine totally, 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.359 so you have that kind of Okay, Well, he knows 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:19.919 when he needs time to go to he knows. I 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.960 have a whole setup, the whole aura vibe of his 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.240 room is totally set and shades. She's got a mark 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:32.200 pac don't. Oh yeah, guys, we're in Albie's crib right now, micrib, 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.440 Albie's nursery. But yes, and I do carry those things 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:40.240 around with me. Now. I've gotten so confident that we've 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.680 um that he's a good sleeper right now that we 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.439 are able to we black out his stroller and we 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.560 haven't traveling sound machine. And so if I am on 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.000 the go and can't move my schedule things around, he 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.199 will take his nap. It's on is good and I 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:56.960 don't want to do it all the time, but when 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.080 I do, it's he knows. It's like he knows as 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.760 it's time exactly. Um. Can co sleeping be a part 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.480 of sleep training? Are the mutually exclusive? Um? Close sleeping 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:13.560 is another controversial topic. UM. There co sleeping so you 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:15.760 guys know means sleeping the same bed as your parents. 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:18.320 Is the mom or dad, correct or or and the 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:22.880 baby you get me? So again, we go by what 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:26.920 the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends, and part of their 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:29.560 role of having the baby in your room till one 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.840 year of age, UM was to encourage you know, the 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.880 ease of breastfeeding and taking care of your baby and 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:40.960 reducing the risk of sids. CO sleeping with a newborn 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:45.720 and a baby under a year of age is not safe. Um, 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.320 So instead of co sleeping, we want to think of 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.600 it as room sharing. Right, you can have a co 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:54.480 sleeper that's attached to the bed, but you're not going 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:57.320 to roll over onto the baby. Right. Um, so it's 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:59.880 really about reducing the risk of SIDS, and that's something 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.399 can control because there's other things that we can't control, 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:08.159 like developmental periods. And maybe something they're thinking about about 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.239 SIDS is that it is biological, so we can't control that, 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:15.880