1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westerveldt. In our last episode, 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: we mentioned the appearance of the Republican Attorneys General Association 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: or RAGA in the big US youth climate case Juliana 4 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: versus United States. Today, I want to dig into that 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: organization a bit more and some other organizations that like 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: to party with it, with one of the foremost experts 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: on this topic, Lisa Graves. 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 2: My name is Lisa Graves, and I'm the executive director 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: of True North Research, which is a watchdog group that 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: focuses on corporate distortion of American democracy, and I previously 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 2: led the Center for Media Democracy. 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 3: I'm still the president of the board over there. 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: And I've previously been Deputy Assistant Attorney General in the 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: Office of Legal Policy at the US Department of Justice, 15 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 2: and the Chief Counsel Denominations for the US Senate Judiciary Committee, 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: the Chief of the Article three Division of the US Courts, 17 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: the Admistry off the US Courts, and I was the 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: senior legislative strategist for the ACLU on national security issues. 19 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: So I am a researcher and a writer and someone 20 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: who has looked deeply into some of these front groups 21 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: or right wing groups that have been advancing pretty extreme 22 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 2: agenda in a lot of different ways, both federally and 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 2: in the States. 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: Lisa connects the dots on a right wing extremism and 25 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: climate better than pretty much anyone I've ever talked to, 26 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to bring you this interview today. 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: I talked to Lisa last year in the process of 28 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: working on the second season of the show This Land, 29 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: which I highly recommend you check out if you haven't already. 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: It follows a series of constitutional challenges to the Indian 31 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: Child Welfare Act, which has some surprising backers, and yeah, 32 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: there is an oil and gas connection at any rate. 33 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: Lisa has spent a lot of time looking at some 34 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: of the specific lawyers and right wing fi involved in that, 35 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: many of whom are the very same folks fighting against 36 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: climate action. That includes not just RAGA, but also the 37 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: various Coke funded organizations like the Heritage Foundation and the 38 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: Cato Institute and the Goldwater Institute, as well as a 39 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: lesser known but equally powerful family foundation, the Bradley Foundation. 40 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: It's a lot to unpack, and Lisa blew my mind 41 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: in ways that I'm still thinking about a year later. 42 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: That conversation is coming up right after this quick break, 43 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,839 Speaker 1: So I'm curious to hear a little bit about your 44 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: work on Goldwater in particular and what their big kind 45 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: of driving force has seemed to be in recent years. 46 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: I had done a significant report about the Goldwater Institute 47 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: in two thousand and thirty team to examine its activities, 48 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: its funding, its influence on Arizona law, how it was 49 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: able to use Arizona's weak laws on lobby disclosure to 50 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: have an enormous effect on the legislature that was not 51 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: entirely visible to ordinary people, in how it was advancing 52 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 2: Charles Cooke's agenda. Charles Cooke in many ways has used 53 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: ALEC to operationalize his ideas at the state level, and 54 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: Goldwater work to advance those ideas in the state legislature 55 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 2: to push those proposals in addition to expand with litigation 56 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: operations under Bullock, who's obviously now on the state Supreme Court. 57 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: That would be Clint Bullock. He's in Arizona Supreme Court 58 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: justice today, but he built his reputation for decades as 59 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: a public interest litigator for various conservative causes, particularly against 60 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: affirmative action and for school choice. 61 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: So I've looked at them and I think it's it's 62 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: interesting because there appears to be a confluence of interests. 63 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: Lisa said she saw this confluence of interest in the 64 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: Indian Child Welfare Act cases that Goldwater started to bring 65 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: beginning in twenty fifteen. Again, go and listen to this 66 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: land for that whole wild story. But to sum it up, 67 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: the primary argument being used in those cases is that 68 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: the definition of Indian is race based and therefore violates 69 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. That sort 70 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: of argument has been a key part of the quote 71 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 1: unquote reverse discrimination argument for conservative lawyers arguing against various 72 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,559 Speaker 1: civil rights laws for decades, and Clint Bullock, an early 73 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: acolyte of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, has been pushing 74 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: that argument for decades. 75 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: There is this component, obviously on the surface of the 76 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: cases is involving claims about protection or about race specific remedies, 77 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 2: and obviously Clarence Thomas, you know, has made assertions about 78 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: that in his opinions related to this area of the law. 79 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: But I think it's about more than race. I think 80 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: it's about possibly reshaping the law surrounding the relationship between 81 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 2: the United States and tribes and sort of using this 82 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: particular law as a way to perhaps change dramatically other 83 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: laws that may well be implicated, and the ones that 84 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 2: are most concerned to me of those other legal areas are, 85 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 2: you know, the relationship between the federal government and the 86 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: tribes and sovereignty issues involving oil and leasing and that 87 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: sort of thing. I just wonder, although I don't know, 88 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 2: but I wonder whether, given some of the players, there 89 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: is ultimately an oil, oil and gas angle here. 90 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: That's something that we've been looking at to The first 91 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: Attorney general to sign on was in Texas, and the 92 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: Texas AG's office has been very friendly to oil and 93 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: gas for a long time. And then you know the 94 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: fact that Gibson Doune is involved too, and the Koch 95 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: brothers kind of tangentially, it seems like there's this financial 96 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: motive from the oil and gas folks that dovetails with 97 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: some like weird racial ideology. 98 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: So you have this Attorney general in a state that is, 99 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: you know, particularly friendly and warm to coke and to 100 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: the other oil and refinery industries, and it has very 101 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: very few tribal holdings in the state. But Also it's 102 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 2: the case that you know, something has happened over the 103 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 2: last twenty years, and I had looked at this back 104 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: when I was working on the Senate Judiciary Committee. In 105 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: terms of this the rise of RAGA, the Republican Attorney's 106 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: General Association, where we know that it's a pay to 107 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: play operation, we know that it has had enormously distorting 108 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: effect on US law. It provides a mechanism for corporations 109 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: to pass money through to help attorneys general in ways 110 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: that they would not be able to individually solicit for 111 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: their own campaigns given their role, their regulatory role over 112 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: those very industries. And that's been going on since RAGA 113 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: was created back more than twenty years ago now, and 114 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: it has accelerated under some of the attorneys general who 115 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: have led it, like Scott Crewe was who was, you know, 116 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 2: in my view, another corrupt individual, someone who was selaxed 117 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 2: on ethical rules to say the least, and who was 118 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: willing to do the bidding of the oil industry and 119 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: attacking climate legislation and climate rules, even the very modest 120 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: cpp the Clean Power Plan rules to advance the of 121 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: the funders of RAGA. And I say that knowing that 122 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: Oklahoma obviously has you know, a huge amount of industry 123 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: involved or you know, has has long relationships with these 124 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: The oil industry even has an oil you know, a 125 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: replica I think of a of an oil well on 126 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: the Capitol grounds, and so I know that it's it's 127 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: a part of that state's history. But we do know 128 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: that RAGA is a pay to play operation these Republican 129 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: Attorneys General behave in general, they are operating most often 130 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: we've seen at the behest of the industries that they're 131 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: soliciting funds for to fund RAGA. 132 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 3: That's interesting Beyond RAGA. 133 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: Is funding the corporate funders of RAGA, we know that 134 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: it now is receiving a substantial amount of money from 135 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: one of the emerging big dark money operations, which is 136 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 2: Leonard Leo's operation, which was funded through a group that's 137 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: now defunct that has subsequently you know, basically been re 138 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: ran and are renamed as Leo has re launched his 139 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: operations after it was exposed by The Washington Post last year. 140 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 2: So RAGA now is not just a recipient of donations 141 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: from big oil and big huge corporations, but it's also 142 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 2: a major recipient of funds in which the source is 143 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: completely unknown to anyone other than the person raising the money, 144 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: Leonard Leo and his group of operatives. 145 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: That would be former head of the Federalist Society Leonard Leo. 146 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: The Federalist Society is credited with getting hundreds of conservative 147 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: judges appointed over the past couple of decades and picking 148 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court choices of any Republican president in that 149 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: same timeframe. Leo left the Federalist Society and started a 150 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: new organization, CRC Advisors in twenty twenty. They have continued 151 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: that work. One of the first projects he andnnounced under 152 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: CRC was ten million dollars in funding for issue advocacy 153 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: campaigning around you guessed it judge ships in twenty twenty. 154 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: And they've particularly targeted states and state AG's offices to 155 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 2: advance Leonard's longer term agenda, which he described to the 156 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: Council of National Policy and a speech to CNP last year, 157 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: that America stands at the precipice of what he called 158 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 2: the revival of what he described as the quote structural constitution. 159 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 2: And he told the CNP audience that no one alive 160 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: in that room had seen the type of legal revolution 161 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: that America was about to see based on the appointments 162 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: to the Supreme Court and other courts to revive this 163 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: so called structural constitution to the law as it existed 164 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 2: pre New Deal. And you know, that affects a whole 165 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: host of laws. It affects civil rights laws, that it 166 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: will affect labor laws and labor rightsenvironmental regulation and more. 167 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: And it's an attempt in my view, to really limit 168 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: the ability of Congress to pass laws, to limit the 169 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: ability of agencies to regulate corporations, and to you know, 170 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: sort of change the whole modern structure of government, basically 171 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: in terms of the administrative agencies, but also the rights 172 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: of citizens and the relationships between the United States as 173 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 2: a as a government and other governments, which obviously would 174 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: include tribal governments tribes in that speech, but it's an 175 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: attempt by Leo and an assortment of lawyers who are 176 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: elite lawyers like Paul Clement and others who have been, 177 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 2: you know, advancing some of these ideas. 178 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: Paul Clement is another lawyer involved in the Indian Child 179 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: Welfare Act cases, but he's also been involved in a 180 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: variety of pipeline disputes, and he was the Solicitor General 181 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: of the United States under Bush. He's also a Supreme 182 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: Court regular, with more Supreme Court appearances under his belt 183 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: than any attorney currently practicing. 184 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: And now they have a Supreme Court that's increasingly receptive 185 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: to what I considered be an extreme, radical, reactionary agenda 186 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: to change our rights and limit our powers and our 187 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: democracy through our representatives in ways that serve a very 188 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 2: elite agenda, the agenda of the people who fund Leonard 189 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: Leo and Leo's operations and fund the RAGA, the Republicantturney 190 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: General's Association, and have been really attempting to work a 191 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 2: legal revolution through offices that we would otherwise consider to 192 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 2: be independent. It would be nice to have attorneys general 193 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: of states who were not so captive to advancing the 194 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: interest of Charles Cooke, But unfortunately we are in an 195 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 2: era in which those interests have been dominating these many 196 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: of these state ags, including the Attorney General Texas, who's 197 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: embroiled in other serious I mean, they've declared, you know, 198 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 2: this war on the so called administrative state. Obviously, there's 199 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 2: roots of that in Reagan and some of the lawyers 200 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: who were active then, who became judges and some of 201 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: the people who are in the judiciary, like Silverman, who 202 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 2: Paul Clement worked for, and who Amy Comingey Barrett clerked for. 203 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: People who are in the judiciary who have been, you know, 204 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: in my view, very partisan, very right wing, you know, 205 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 2: sort of politicians and rogues who are attempting to restructure 206 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: the modern American state through judicial rulings. And so Paul, 207 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 2: Paul and I overlapped a bit. When I was at 208 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: the Justice Department. I was a career deputy Assistant Attorney 209 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: General in the Office of Legal Policy. Although I didn't 210 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 2: work with him in the sg's office when he was 211 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: coming in to take over that operation, but I was 212 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: there for those first couple of months, and obviously, you know, 213 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 2: observed his litigation as a citizen, but also when I 214 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: was on the Senate Judiciary Committee to see his efforts 215 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: and the way he was trying to change, you know, 216 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: the laws. And then you know his work since the 217 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: end of that administration through the Obama administration in the 218 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: private sector and the types of cases he's been involved in, 219 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 2: including the attacks on the Affordable Care Act and this 220 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: advance of sort of the supremacy of freedom of religion 221 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: as a sword to strike down legislation and protections for 222 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: you know, people's health and equal protection. 223 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: I'm curious what you think about his kind of driving 224 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: force as a person. What is his ideology? 225 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 2: Well, I mean he to my in my view, he's 226 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: he's one of the you know, doctrinaire ideologues on the right. 227 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 2: You know, he's part of sort of that movement, the 228 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: Federal Society movement. Although I think that gives it some 229 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: sort of populous veneer that's not real. It's an effort 230 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: to basically roll back most of the modern precedents. And 231 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: you know, the presidents that are Brown, Post and Post 232 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: Brown that a lot of the sort of the Leo 233 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: contingent dislikes. They now, I guess, have refashioned themselves as 234 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: originalists in asserting that Amy Cony Bird is the most 235 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: recent real originalists, when in fact, the reality is is 236 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 2: that in my lifetime, if you look at the US 237 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 2: Supreme Court, there have only been four appointees by Democratic 238 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: presidents and sixteen appointees that by Republican presidents, and that 239 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 2: includes renquists twice because there's two different seats. But you know, 240 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 2: eighty percent of the Supreme Court has been appointed by Republicans, 241 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: and they just haven't been doctrinaire enough for these you know, 242 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: very elite reactionaries like Leonard Leo and Clement and others, 243 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: many of whom were named on Trump's list or shortlist 244 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: for the Supreme Court, as Clement was. So I don't 245 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 2: know him personally. I don't know what he's like personally. 246 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: My personal view is, you know, everyone has a mom 247 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 2: who loves them and friends who like them. It's beside 248 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: the point about whether or fair or whether they have 249 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: an agenda that actually would hurt the interests of most people. 250 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 3: You know. 251 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: I think that the lawyers who are part of RAGA, 252 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: the Attorney's General like Pruitt, who are advancing these sorts 253 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: of attacks on you know, really reasonable legislation, legislation that's 254 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: certainly within the power of Congress, like the CPP. These individuals, 255 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: they dress in suits and ties, but they represent a 256 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: pretty extreme ideology. 257 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: Lisa says that in recent years that extreme ideology always 258 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: seems to come back to carbon and whether or not 259 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: to regulate it. 260 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: One of my primary concerns about Leo's Structural Revolution is 261 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: that it will be an attempt to use this so 262 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: called structural constitution to take away the power of Congress 263 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: to regulate carbon. You know, they have a longer standing 264 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 2: attack on the existence of the EPA. We've documented, I 265 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: helped document how on Charles Kocapo even the creation of 266 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 2: an energy Department in the United States. There shouldn't be 267 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: any federal energy department. Some of these Hope type groups 268 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: and LEO groups, you know, have a hostility to the 269 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 2: idea of there being these sorts of agencies, and they're 270 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 2: they're i think mounting a structural attack on them as 271 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 2: well as you know, ultimately a question of whether we're 272 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: going to even have some of these agencies. As you know, 273 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 2: there's been an attempt in a number of these presidential 274 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 2: campaigns for Republicans to claim these are the five or 275 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 2: four or three agencies they're going to eliminate, which you 276 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 2: know inevitably include energy, the Energy Department, and perhaps the EPA. 277 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's super interesting. 278 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: Okay, So in terms of some of the other players, Bradley, 279 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: you know, has been a big funder of Goldwater for 280 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: a long time. Paul Clement's now on their board. 281 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 2: When I wrote the report on Goldwater in twenty thirteen, 282 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 2: they were in the process of basically expanding their litigation 283 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 2: and they were marketing and I think that these documents 284 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: are in the Bradley files, but they were you know, 285 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 2: at the time, basically trying to become the litigation force 286 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 2: for the State Policy Network groups across the country. 287 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: The State Policy Network is a group of organizations funded 288 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: by the Coke Network that takes pro corporate sample legislation 289 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: from the American Legislative Exchange Council or ALEC and works 290 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: to get it passed in state legislatures. Several years ago, 291 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 1: Goldwater launched its litigation center in Arizona under Clint Bullocks leadership, 292 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: with the idea of being the litigator for all of 293 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: these state policy initiatives. 294 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: They were trying to do that and then had that 295 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: be a you know, a fundraising basis for them, and 296 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 2: they would help coordinate with these other places. And obviously 297 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 2: Clint you know, had a long standing record as a 298 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 2: litigator you know, in attacking affirmative action and from my 299 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 2: perspectives of rights laws, and so they had a team 300 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: that they put in place. It felt that they could 301 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 2: you know, market beyond Arizona. But their real objective is 302 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: structural litigation, Like they're not just taking pro bono cases 303 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 2: for the sake of taking promono cases. 304 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 3: Their objective is structural change. 305 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: Structural change meaning fundamentally changing the law or government and 306 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: how it works and what it's allowed to do. 307 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: I think, even though we may not know definitively the 308 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 2: objective of either Clint Bullock and his successors at Goldwater 309 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 2: or Paul Clement, one thing that is clear in their 310 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: pattern of the litigation that they've engaged in is that 311 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: they do it to advance structural change. They're using litigation 312 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 2: as part of a strategy for changing the law, Like 313 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: for example, with the Goldwater litigation on licensure, it's actually 314 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: a much broader attack on the idea that government should 315 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 2: be having licenses for people in a whole host of 316 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: areas where people would be demonstrably unsafe if these issues 317 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: weren't regulated from a health and safety standpoint. And we 318 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: can see that in the way some of these groups, 319 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 2: although I don't know that what Clement's position has been 320 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: on COVID, but what we've seen through the ALE groups 321 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: and the SPN groups has been this you know, push 322 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 2: for improvident reopening, this attack on you know, closed and 323 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: closing businesses to protect public health, in this pandemic. So 324 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: they're not actually that interested in public health, you know, 325 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: in money and the economy, and that is a persistent 326 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 2: driver of their agenda. Certainly is a driver of the 327 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 2: Goldwater Institute's litigation agenda overall. Is this notion that regulation 328 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: is somehow incompatible with what they describe as this pre market, 329 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: which is this sort of in their fantasy ideal world, 330 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: one in which we don't have these regulations and companies 331 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: can do that they want and the rich can do 332 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: what they want. Bradley is interesting obviously, it's it's sort 333 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,479 Speaker 2: of zombie money in the sense that there's no family 334 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 2: member left on that board and the super wealthy people, 335 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 2: uh like Pope Art Pope and uh Diane Hendricks, who 336 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 2: are major GOP donors, and you know Pope has long 337 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 2: saning ties to you know, he's been on a FP's 338 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: board for a long long time or one of the 339 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: FP operations board. So you have these billionaires who are 340 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: basically directing the the hundreds of millions of dollars of 341 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: other you know, industrialists to advance uh these you know, 342 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 2: some of these pretty extreme, uh, extremely reactionary groups. But Cearle, 343 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 2: so the Bradley Brothers were super anti labor. You know, 344 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 2: they were you know, sort of in my view, bad 345 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 2: guys uh in a lot of ways. And now their 346 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: money is continuing to do that bad That badness. Searle, 347 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: you know is the is that pharmaceutical fortune right? Uh? 348 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,159 Speaker 3: That I think? I think? Uh. 349 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: I don't know that they made as much money on Ascertain, 350 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: but ascertain was one of. 351 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 3: Their products opiately. 352 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 2: But Searle, you know, Searle is deeply embedded in sort 353 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: of that right wing infrastructure. 354 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: Searle is the Seerle Freedom Trust. It's president and CEO, 355 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: Kim Dennis, also heads up a giant pot of dark 356 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: money that the Kochs put together. After the twenty ten 357 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: Supreme Court case, Citizens United made anonymous political donations legal 358 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: for corporations. 359 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: At one point, I actually wondered whether they were operating 360 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 2: out of the American Enterprise Institute just qua AEI. But 361 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 2: they have an address obviously that's in Chicago or something 362 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: for Searle Freedom Press. But they're fully embedded in advancing 363 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 2: this pretty extreme, extremely reactionary set of legal goals to 364 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 2: you know, turn back the clock a century. 365 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: In the words of Leonard Leo Yeah, it does. 366 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: It's like, yes, I mean that seems so clear that 367 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: it's like they really really do want to live in 368 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: like the night, you know, yeah, pre new Deal. 369 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: Basically we're of Robert Barren is their glory era, and 370 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 2: so I mean, I think it does raise that question about, 371 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: you know, a rise of the sort of a Lockner, 372 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 2: a new Lockner twenty first century. 373 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: Lockner Court Lockner was a really important early labor case. 374 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: It happened in nineteen oh five. It's called Lockner versus 375 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: New York and basically what happened was that New York 376 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: State had passed a law limiting the amount of hours 377 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: that bakers could work every week. So it was capped 378 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: at sixty hours a week, and a guy named Lockner, 379 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: who owned a bakery got caught allowing an employee to 380 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: work additional hours. He was fined and actually thrown in 381 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: jail over this, and so he sued and said that 382 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: this law was totally unfair and ridiculous and that it 383 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: was unconstitutional. The Supreme Court agreed, and that decision ushered 384 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: in what's called the Lockner Era, which effectively rolled back 385 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: a lot of the progressive reforms around both labor and 386 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: various environmental issues, which you know, it was really only 387 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: twenty thirty years after the very first regulations had even 388 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: been passed on industry, so it was sort of the 389 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: first attempt to roll back regulation. Like a lot of 390 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: other folks who've been watching the slow and steady corporate 391 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: capture of the US judiciary over the years, Lisa Graves 392 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: thinks the goal right now is to usher in another 393 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: Lockner era, to take us back to the days when 394 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: industry wasn't regulated at all. 395 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 2: That's going to be inventing theories that they claim our structurally, 396 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: you know, structural constitutionalism, to strike down our power as 397 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: a people through our representatives to regulate these corporations time 398 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: when regulating carbon corporations is vital to our survival as 399 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: a you know, people, human beings on this planet. And 400 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: so I know that there are a lot of regulations 401 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 2: and roles that would fall if they're successful in implementing 402 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 2: this so called structural constitution. But I think that it's 403 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 2: clear to me that since some of the driving funders 404 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 2: of some of the main groups are funded by oil 405 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 2: and gas, that that's got to be part of the 406 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: objective our ability to regulate those industries. 407 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 3: And particularly carbon. 408 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: Carbon is job one for coke industries and for the 409 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: coke operations, and when they're involved in something, it's you 410 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 2: know a lot of it ultimately involves making sure carbon 411 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 2: is protected from regulation and limiting regulation of carbon. 412 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know it's funny too. I think people don't 413 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: necessarily understand. And this is like the thing I loved 414 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: about Cokeland too, is like just that there it's almost 415 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: like there's nothing too small or petty or seemingly unrelated 416 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 1: for the cokes to go after. It's like it can 417 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: be like the smallest little wind project in like rural Ohio, 418 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: and they will like scorched earth burn it down, you. 419 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 3: Know, like what happened in it was at Tennessee. 420 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 2: When they attack the like the mass transit, it's like 421 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: they're involved in trying to stop mass transit in a town, 422 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 2: you know. I mean that was a major coke operation 423 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,479 Speaker 2: to block to block expanded mass transit, and you just 424 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: you know, it just it just seems so petty and 425 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: crazy in a way, like how much money do they 426 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: actually lose? Does the does the coke board actually lose 427 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 2: when there's a bus system, you know, or you know, 428 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 2: even like like it just but they claim it's all 429 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 2: a matter of principle. But I think Chris's book showed 430 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 2: how it's like quote just principle, it really is about 431 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 2: about their like basically endless revenue. And there's never enough 432 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: of their endless revenue basically right, Yeah, you know, there's 433 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 2: never like anything that limits them is somehow an attack 434 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 2: or it limits like regulates the industry, amout an attack 435 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 2: on them, when it's actually you know, good public policy 436 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 2: that advances the public good and that allows people you 437 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 2: know to commute or you know, like it's just absurd 438 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 2: type the number of things they've tried to do, including 439 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 2: you know, in Colorado, those efforts to take over those 440 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: school districts as AFP try to push through these candidates 441 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: who were advancing this attack. And the thing for me 442 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 2: in looking at the coachs and having looked at them 443 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: for so long now and Charles you know, in particular, 444 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 2: who's who was the real driver even you know, with 445 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 2: David around is how much of his ideology from the 446 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties and early seventies is just so fixed. He's 447 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 2: you know, he's been very flexible in a sense in 448 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 2: terms of trying new things like you know, he's really 449 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 2: someone who has re engineered America just to try to 450 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 2: remake it in his own image. Uh, in ways that 451 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 2: have you know, deeply harmed our democracy and our economy 452 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 2: and equality and the opportunity for you know, equal you know, 453 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 2: equal opportunity in the US. But he his ideas like 454 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 2: the hostility of the public schools, the idea of public schools, 455 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: like that's an early idea of his, This that he 456 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: just embraced. And he's never given up on the idea 457 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 2: of hostility to there being energy regulation. That's like he's 458 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: in his early thirties and now he's you know, much older, 459 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: and he's. 460 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 3: You know, still pushing that agenda. 461 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 2: He's someone who in some ways hasn't changed very much 462 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 2: at all in terms of this very unyielding view of 463 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: the world, which you know, that Freedom School operation that 464 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: that really shaped him, that Bob La Fevra operation in 465 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 2: the early sixties. You know, that guy was an an 466 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: archo capitalist. He described inself as an anarchist because they 467 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: didn't want to say anarchists, but that was a view 468 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: that the role of government should is limited to protecting 469 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: property really right, and that government should get out of 470 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: the way of corporations, and that freedom means that corporations 471 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 2: and individuals can do whatever they want, and that included 472 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: an attack on the very notion of public schools. 473 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: This is why I'll see all the same organizations that 474 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: attack climate policy attacking the public school system as well. 475 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: It's part of a broader move to privatize everything, to 476 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: really bake in this idea that everybody gets to choose 477 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: everything for themselves and there's no government involvement in any 478 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: of it. 479 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 2: Publication was one of the great innovations of America that 480 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: other countries, you know, not everyone, but you know, sought 481 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 2: to aspire toward. 482 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 3: And that's not to say that schools are perfect. 483 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: You know, schools face a lot of challenges because our 484 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 2: society faces a lot of challenges, and people face a 485 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: lot of economic challenges that then affect you know, your 486 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: your chances in school in terms of you know, do 487 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: you have a place you can do homework, do you 488 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 2: have a computer, do you have the Internet? Like there's 489 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: like the economy affects our education. But the fact is 490 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: that I've just been one of the things that has 491 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 2: so stunned me h is the level of hostility to 492 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 2: the idea of public education and public highways. I did 493 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 2: a deep dive. We never published it because it didn't 494 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: it didn't end up happening. But like I did a 495 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 2: deep dive into one of the main Coke guys who 496 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 2: was in the Trump administration on on highways and infrastructure, 497 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 2: and that guy was basically saying, you know, we shouldn't 498 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: have public roads at all. And and they, you know, 499 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 2: the course, have been behind a lot of the pulling efforts, 500 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: you know, pushing toll highways and in fact they profit 501 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: from total highways. We just we just haven't just I 502 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 2: just never published this research ship. But they, you know, 503 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: they they they they are one of the culprits behind this. 504 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: Other obviously other companies have benefited enormously, like CenTra and 505 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: and one of the companies in Australia. But the fact 506 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: is that they've been behind this. And their main Coke 507 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 2: operative who landed in the Trump administration in charge of infrastructure, Royal, 508 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 2: is on record we found saying, you know, his ideal 509 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: the ideal world is that basically you're told on every 510 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 2: street corner electronically. 511 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 3: Wow, you know, so, I mean their view. 512 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: Of America is like, is really a dystopia. You know, 513 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 2: no public schools. Every road is private, basically in your 514 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 2: taxed by a corporation, a corporate tax, basically a toll 515 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 2: every time you drive your car. But damn it, we're 516 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 2: not going to regulate those industries. We're not gonna you know, 517 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: we're not going to limit the polluters, Like how dare we? 518 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: But they want to basically have corporate tax. 519 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: If they want to tax the shit out of individuals, 520 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: and it won't be called the tax. 521 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: It's a toll, right, it's not a tax, it's a tool. 522 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 2: But that and that toll is completely set by them 523 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 2: with no democratic accountability. And their claim is, well, the 524 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 2: democratic accountability is you just use it, you don't, which, 525 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 2: you know, suggests that everyone has some sort of you know, 526 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: cash reservoir to be told to death by corporations. 527 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 3: You know. 528 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 2: But like that was a shocking quote, Like who has 529 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: that as their fantasy? 530 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 3: Oh? 531 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 2: The cooperative at the White House in charge of infrastructure, 532 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 2: that's his fantasy. We're told we our cars are toll 533 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: on every corner we passed, And for a while they 534 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: couldn't even achieve it, right, because we didn't have the 535 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 2: electronic capacity. So the tolls were these you know, clunky 536 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: tolls where everyone complains when they go through a toll 537 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: in Illinois or whatever, they're paying money to the to 538 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 2: the state. No, that money is going to private corporations. 539 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 2: The state is just administering it. But you know, so 540 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,959 Speaker 2: they couldn't achieve their objective because they didn't have the 541 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: Internet that we have now. But that guy literally was like, hey, 542 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 2: the great The ideal scenario is, yeah, wherever you drive, 543 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: we're collecting a toll and it's not the government connecting 544 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: that toll to fund schools, it's corporations. 545 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 3: Wow. Anyway, they have. 546 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 2: Great silk suits and great silk ties and they look like, 547 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 2: you know, upstanding normal individuals. But their agenda of many 548 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 2: of these guys, including Charles Cooke, is truly extreme. 549 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: So you can imagine me sitting in front of a 550 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,479 Speaker 1: giant murder wall pinning threads together. After this conversation, go 551 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: check out Lisa online. Her research firm is True North Research, 552 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: and she's still on the board of the Center for 553 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: Media and Democracy, which does incredible work. A lot of 554 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: the Bradley documents that were leaked a few years ago 555 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: have been analyzed and organized by CMD and you can 556 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: find that work online at exposed by cmd dot org. 557 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: I also want to give a shout out to Documented 558 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: and the reporters there, Nick Sergei and Jamie Corey who've 559 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: done some absolutely phenomenal work on RAGA and coc network 560 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: and Alec and Bradley. Go check them out. They're online 561 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: at documented dot net. We've put together a tremendous resource there. 562 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: Highly recommend checking that out. Okay, that's it for this episode. 563 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: Next time you hear from me it will be for 564 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: a new season. We're going to take Drilled back to 565 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: being a seasonal show. If you would like to continue 566 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: to get weekly episodes and bonus content, please sign up 567 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 1: for our Patreon at patreon dot com slash Drilled. Otherwise, 568 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: we'll be back March forth with part two of our 569 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: season on the gas industry. This one is called the 570 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: New Climate Villains, and we're teckning how the gas industry 571 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: is adjusting to its new role as part of the 572 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: climate problem after pretty successfully marketing itself as part of 573 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: the solution for decades. Come back for that, Thanks for listening, 574 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: and we'll see you soon.