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Speaker 1: Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling. Railvalry, No, no, sibling.

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Speaker 1: You don't do that with your mouth, Revelry. That's good, Oliver, Oliver,

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Speaker 1: this was a great it's a great episode. It I

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Speaker 1: think speaks to a lot of the things on the

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Speaker 1: show and one big major theme in our life, which

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Speaker 1: is being I guess sort of estranged with our father,

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Speaker 1: even though we do connect here there and that how common,

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Speaker 1: that is, how unfortunately common it is for someone to

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Speaker 1: be estranged from someone in their family. An actual listener

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Speaker 1: shared this book with us, and then we got in

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Speaker 1: touch with him and asked if he'd come and talked

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Speaker 1: with us about, you know, family complications. We're talking to

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Speaker 1: doctor Carl Pillmer. He's actually a family sociologist. He's a

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Speaker 1: professor at Cornell University, where I went and that's my

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Speaker 1: alma mater. Who was I just talking to you recently?

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Speaker 1: Who went to Cornell or someone who's kid. Maybe I

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Speaker 1: don't think we're gonna have anyone in our family go

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Speaker 1: to Cornell no, definitely not. Maybe Ronnie, maybe being and Bodie.

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Speaker 1: They're kind, they're smart kids. They're way smarter than we were,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, just let's just make sure they don't

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Speaker 1: hear this podcast. I got an email yesterday because again,

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Speaker 1: like Bodium, you know, he's always on top of things

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Speaker 1: and I never have to worry about him. And I

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Speaker 1: get an email saying that he is seventeen assignments missing

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Speaker 1: one seven. I'm like, what the fuck? How's that happened?

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Speaker 1: I confronted him and he just did, you know it

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Speaker 1: so great about body. I'm talking a little quiet because

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Speaker 1: he's kind of near the next room, but he just did.

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Speaker 1: He was like, he just said, you know what I got.

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Speaker 1: I'm tired, and I got lazy. I was tired and lazy,

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Speaker 1: and I just, you know, I put it off and

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Speaker 1: put it off, and it just built up and it

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Speaker 1: was too many to actually go back and do, and

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Speaker 1: I got tired and I got lazy. I was like,

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Speaker 1: you're like, how am I mad at that? I'm like, wow, okay, okay, great, well,

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Speaker 1: thank you's being so open and let's just get it done.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't get mad. That's so funny, you know, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna top this story. Ready for this Bing. We

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Speaker 1: feel like he's doing all his work, and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, I get a call same thing, so Bing

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Speaker 1: is missing fifty one assignments, and I was like, this

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Speaker 1: has to be a mistake. You mean fifteen assignments, no

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Speaker 1: fifty one? And so I go to Bing and I'm like, Bing,

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Speaker 1: we need to talk about this. You know, so you're

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Speaker 1: missing and I couldn't even like get get it out

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Speaker 1: fifty one assignments and he was looking at me like

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Speaker 1: like it's like in his mind, he's like, there's no

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Speaker 1: way I'm missing fifty one silence, and in why am

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Speaker 1: I I'm going there's no way he's missing fifty one

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Speaker 1: And he's like, mom, that has to be like a mistake, right,

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Speaker 1: And I'm like I don't think So, so we go

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Speaker 1: into his thing and he's missing fifty one assignments and

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Speaker 1: then he got them done in literally three days, no joke.

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Speaker 1: It was it was like, wait, why wouldn't the teacher

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Speaker 1: or the school will be like, hey, you know what,

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Speaker 1: you're missing three assignments. Let's get on this. Why are

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Speaker 1: we waiting till fifty one? I don't know this is

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Speaker 1: what I said to them, And they said, look, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is very common. And I said to the teacher,

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Speaker 1: I said, it's common for a child to be missing

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Speaker 1: fifty one assignments. I don't know, but that doesn't that

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Speaker 1: doesn't really sound like, yeah, well I bowed, I bow

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Speaker 1: down that that that definitely Trump's body by a long shot.

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Speaker 1: Holy crap, I did. I did tell him that if

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Speaker 1: he did it again, that I would estrange him. Is

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Speaker 1: that an actual word? Like? Can you say to a strange,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to estrange you. I'm going to estrange you.

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Speaker 1: That's what I said to Aaron. We're being and making love,

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Speaker 1: you want to strange? Do you want to get estranged?

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Speaker 1: Right now I'm feeling I'm feeling like God, let's just

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Speaker 1: hop doctor Carl is not listening to this intro. No.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm glad we can laugh about you know

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Speaker 1: how traumatic are estrangement was exactly That's how we deal

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Speaker 1: with it. We're crying on the inside anyway, Doctor Pumack,

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Speaker 1: he's a family psychologist. I know. Oliver has already said that.

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Speaker 1: And the Hazel E. Read, Professor in the Department of

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Speaker 1: Human Development at Cornell University and He also directs the

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Speaker 1: Cornell Legacy Project. His book is called fault Lines, Fractured

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Speaker 1: Families and How to Mend Them. Really interesting conversation that

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Speaker 1: I learned the most with sort of how much shame

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Speaker 1: comes with a lot of this, and how quiet everybody

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Speaker 1: is about it, how nobody really talks about estrangement. It's

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Speaker 1: always it's always interesting to talk to you know, experts,

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Speaker 1: doctor's professionals that pertains to situations in your life, so

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Speaker 1: it's personal. You know, when when we get to have

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Speaker 1: these conversations, especially with doctor Carl talking about estrangement, relating

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Speaker 1: it to what we've been through reading his book, understanding

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Speaker 1: how we can sort of benefit from reading it, get

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Speaker 1: putting the tools into the toolbox to then try to

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Speaker 1: fix and help some of these relationships, even ours, you

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Speaker 1: know well, and also how you can mend you know,

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Speaker 1: there's obviously times and circumstances that shouldn't be but you know,

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Speaker 1: when when is the right time to look at it

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Speaker 1: and want to reconcile or come together? Is it possible?

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Speaker 1: You know, these are all the things that we discussed.

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Speaker 1: I think this is one of my favorite episodes clearly

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Speaker 1: because it does relate to us in a huge way,

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Speaker 1: but also just learning so much about how common it

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Speaker 1: is really And he even said, it's so nice that

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Speaker 1: people are becoming more transparent about their situations and their

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Speaker 1: family when they aren't in contact with a family member

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Speaker 1: or have had an event that has led them to

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Speaker 1: not speaking. And I know it's interesting though, because sometimes

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Speaker 1: those things not necessarily get blown out of proportion, but

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Speaker 1: we stew in them, you know, instead of communicating and

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Speaker 1: maybe realizing that there are ways to reconcile if we

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Speaker 1: can just open up our mouths, communicate and understand some

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Speaker 1: of the differences and maybe get to really realize why

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Speaker 1: we did, why, why we are strange, what happened, have

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Speaker 1: a dialogue about it, and we talk about patterns and

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Speaker 1: we talk. There's a lot of stuff we touch on

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Speaker 1: in this episode, and I have a feeling people are

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Speaker 1: really gonna love this one. So without further ado, this

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Speaker 1: is our Estrangement episode with doctor Carl Pillmer. We are

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Speaker 1: obviously very excited to talk to you, and as most

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Speaker 1: people know who listen to our podcast, are both ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We're a strange from our father or we like to

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Speaker 1: just stay abandoned. We were abandoned by our and we've

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Speaker 1: seemed to kind of it's affected both of us differently,

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Speaker 1: and you know, something that is always carried throughout our

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Speaker 1: lives and everything that we do. And so when we

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Speaker 1: heard about your book and we heard about you, we

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Speaker 1: were like, we have to interview Carl. So thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. I'm so excited. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's such a pleasure. And you're right, it's an incredible

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Speaker 1: topic that affects way more people than we think about,

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Speaker 1: and it's a problem hiding in plain sight that people

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Speaker 1: just don't want to discuss. Well, why do you give

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Speaker 1: the statistics, you know, because they were pretty unreal. Actually,

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Speaker 1: that's a great way to start. And let me tell

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Speaker 1: you that when I started this project five years ago,

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Speaker 1: I was aware that it was an issue from reading

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Speaker 1: about folks like you who are well known and the

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Speaker 1: problems in their own family, and from talking to friends.

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Speaker 1: But really there's been almost no research on it. And

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Speaker 1: the question was this is just you know, one of

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Speaker 1: those silent epidemics that everybody talks about, or is it

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Speaker 1: really a serious problem affecting a lot of people. And

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Speaker 1: so one thing I did, you know, like went in

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Speaker 1: doctor and survey. So I did a true random sample

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Speaker 1: survey of the United States asking people, in no uncertain terms,

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Speaker 1: is there a close relative from whom you're estranged, that is,

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Speaker 1: you have no contact with them whatsoever. And to my

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Speaker 1: absolutely stun surprise, fully twenty seven percent of the US population,

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Speaker 1: so that would translate to sixty seven million folks, said that,

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Speaker 1: in fact they did have such an estrangement in their

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Speaker 1: own life. And in almost every case, because I asked

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Speaker 1: follow ups, these weren't trivial. It wasn't just oh I

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Speaker 1: lost contact with him or her. These were, you know,

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Speaker 1: upsetting issues for them. So often the numbers don't speak

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Speaker 1: for themselves, you know, but this time they really do.

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Speaker 1: This is a serious issue for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: as you yourselves know. Yeah, there's something you said in

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Speaker 1: the beginning of your book. You talked about how you yourself,

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Speaker 1: having had experiences with this, that you don't actively discuss

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Speaker 1: them because what you've learned is that there's so many

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Speaker 1: people involved in every story and that it's not yours,

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Speaker 1: necessarily your story to tell. And I thought that was

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Speaker 1: really interesting. I think a lot of especially people in

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Speaker 1: my position or Oliver's position, we don't engage in the

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Speaker 1: conversation because it is just one side and you don't

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Speaker 1: really want to ignite any negativity or you know, and

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Speaker 1: you and and there are feelings of shame that come

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Speaker 1: with it, and also like you know, or self worth

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Speaker 1: that come with being like, well, who really cares about

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Speaker 1: this part of my life? And that and and how

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Speaker 1: traumatic it is. What I've learned is that there's it's

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Speaker 1: almost wild how many people that it does affect, and

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Speaker 1: nobody feels comfortable talking about it. And I wonder what

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Speaker 1: moved you to actually spend the time focusing on on it,

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Speaker 1: you know, the idea. Sometimes ideas, I'm sure it's true

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Speaker 1: with creative work, they feel like they come out of

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Speaker 1: the blue. But actually I realized I thought that at first,

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Speaker 1: But there was a long history. I've been interested in

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Speaker 1: my whole research life in families after children become adults. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, we have our kids home for eighteen years,

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Speaker 1: but we're going to have least at least twice as

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Speaker 1: much shared lifetime with them after they're out of the

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Speaker 1: half host. So I was really interested in the nature

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Speaker 1: and dynamics of how families operate after everybody's an adult.

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Speaker 1: I drift a little bit towards the dark side of families,

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Speaker 1: I must admit. So I've studied things like the effects

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Speaker 1: of parental favoritism. I've even looked at domestic violence or

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Speaker 1: exploitation in these later life families. So I was primed

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Speaker 1: for it. But I began a project maybe ten years

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Speaker 1: ago or twelve, interviewing the oldest people in America, so

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Speaker 1: eighty ninety or one hundred about their lives. And one

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Speaker 1: key question we asked is what do you regret? So

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Speaker 1: I thought when I asked very old people what you regret?

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Speaker 1: Or you know, how do you get to the end

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Speaker 1: of life with no regrets? I'll tell you one thing

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Speaker 1: they said, by the way, they told me that if

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Speaker 1: you get to ninety or one hundred and have no regrets,

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Speaker 1: you haven't had a very interesting life. But still there

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Speaker 1: were and I expected big ticket items. I expected affairs,

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Speaker 1: I expected shady business deals. I was stunned by for

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Speaker 1: how many very old people and unresolved estrangement was the

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Speaker 1: most painful thing they could describe. And it really hit

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Speaker 1: me with one older woman in Texas who broke down

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Speaker 1: into tears, began to pounder fist on the arms of

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Speaker 1: her chair and say this hurts like crazy and I

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Speaker 1: can't do anything about it. So I started to look

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Speaker 1: at the research literature, and I was stunned that there

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Speaker 1: was almost nothing. Even the Handbook of Family Therapy, this

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Speaker 1: huge volume, doesn't have an entry for you know, estrangement.

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Speaker 1: So I was sitting thinking about it, and basically a

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Speaker 1: mental list came one. People like yourselves, who are very

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Speaker 1: well known, experience it, and we read about it. I've

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Speaker 1: seen it a lot, and there's no research on it

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Speaker 1: and not even a counseling literature. What's wrong with this picture?

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Speaker 1: So I embarked. Done for me, it was really the

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Speaker 1: most sort of exciting journey. It took me into some

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Speaker 1: dark places, but also some very uplifting and positive ones too.

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Speaker 1: It's it feels it feels broad, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Estrangement just feels very broad. And you know, yes, the

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Speaker 1: research gives you statistics, but you know, as you sort

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Speaker 1: of talk about in your book, it's not quite there

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Speaker 1: yet to really form an actual right. You know. It's

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Speaker 1: almost like it's almost like the research starts from people

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Speaker 1: who have like marital issues, like how to how to

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Speaker 1: have a fruitful relationship. The research is more about how

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Speaker 1: you grew up, or the estrangement that you had is

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Speaker 1: affecting your relationship now rights and then I guess the

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Speaker 1: idea though, is to recognize it and you know, and

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Speaker 1: fix it in a way, or you know, get into

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Speaker 1: your own psychology and discover how that estrangement has affected

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Speaker 1: your life and where it has come from. Well, there's

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Speaker 1: two parts of it, is right. There's there's the psychology

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Speaker 1: behind being estranged or being a victim of someone, or

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Speaker 1: there's the or there's the person act actively like removing themselves,

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Speaker 1: and well there's the circumstances for estrangement too, are so broad,

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Speaker 1: and it's like you talk about everyone has their story

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Speaker 1: and they stick to their narrative, and that narrative becomes

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Speaker 1: so embedded that you're not going to knock them off

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Speaker 1: of it, right exactly. I mean the one thing because

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Speaker 1: because what I found is that when people want an

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Speaker 1: apology from somebody, you know, they say, we'll all reconcile

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Speaker 1: if you apologize. Well, it turns out that they don't

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Speaker 1: want an apology for one thing that person did. They

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Speaker 1: want an apology for their entire childhood, but for the

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Speaker 1: kind of person that the other person is. And what

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Speaker 1: I you know, learned also you're so right or that

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Speaker 1: you know, people get we all get invested in our

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Speaker 1: own narratives. So so a person's narrative that what he

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Speaker 1: was doing to his brother was ordinary teasing, and the

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Speaker 1: brother's narrative that it was sibling abuse. After thirty years,

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Speaker 1: it's never going to these views are not going to align.

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Speaker 1: And so one of the key things that people who

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Speaker 1: successfully reconciled, because that was one thing I did that

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Speaker 1: was different. I interview a lot of people not just

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Speaker 1: who are estranged, but who'd gotten back together the first

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Speaker 1: time anyone had done this after ten, twenty or thirty years.

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Speaker 1: This notion of letting go of the past, I'm building

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Speaker 1: a new future together, as incredibly hard as that was,

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Speaker 1: you know, is really key because what someone said, I mean,

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Speaker 1: but when people would say, I realized that he or

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Speaker 1: she wasn't going to give up his or her narrative

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Speaker 1: of what went on anymore than I was willing to.

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Speaker 1: So it's that kind of complex, you know, interior work

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Speaker 1: that you have to do. I think you're right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And then specifically when you are dealing with the person

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Speaker 1: who are estranged with, if you decide to try to reconcile.

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Speaker 1: I think he feels like you have to be open

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Speaker 1: to their narrative and trying to go deeper and understanding

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Speaker 1: where they came from. I mean specifically to me, and

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Speaker 1: I won't get into all the details, but I have had,

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Speaker 1: you know, a reconciliation of sorts with my father, but

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Speaker 1: you know, now getting into your book and patterns right

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Speaker 1: realizing that it wasn't necessarily his fault. When you go

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Speaker 1: back into his family, into his world and realize what

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Speaker 1: his dad did to him, and now I was just

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Speaker 1: part of that chain. You know, there a compassion happens.

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Speaker 1: You know, I understand you more, which allows me to

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Speaker 1: soften a bit in my position. And then I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about this too. But then your expectations change

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Speaker 1: the more you know. And one of the things that

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Speaker 1: you tap on in the book is about expectations. How

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Speaker 1: we kind of form our own expectations and how they

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Speaker 1: can you know. I wonder, I sometimes feel like we

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Speaker 1: all form personal expectations that if we hold on to

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Speaker 1: them too tightly, they'll just never be met. I wonder,

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Speaker 1: when you're researching all of these different people, especially people

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Speaker 1: who have reconciled, do you think maybe they let all

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Speaker 1: the expectation go. You touch on a two huge points,

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Speaker 1: and you know, often social science science is super complicated.

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Speaker 1: But there were a couple of straightforward things that really

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Speaker 1: emerge from this. One is I think if you really

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Speaker 1: want to reconcile, and Oliver, maybe you did this is.

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Speaker 1: I found that people who reconcile ask themselves the question,

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Speaker 1: first of all, what's the least I can accept? So

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Speaker 1: let's imagine that you're a grandparent who's a strange from

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Speaker 1: your daughter, and you want to see your grandchildren. And

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Speaker 1: so you'd say, okay, if my daughter says I can

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Speaker 1: come see the grandchildren, my second husband can, or you know,

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Speaker 1: I can come on weekends, or I can visit them

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Speaker 1: and can't stay at their house. I may have to

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Speaker 1: put up with X or Y. So often people did

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Speaker 1: kind of cost benefit analysis and they decided what the

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Speaker 1: least they could accept in the new relationship was. And second,

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Speaker 1: you're right, I mean, you know, I don't know all

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Speaker 1: the details of your family situation, but I'm sure you,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of adult children have, Oh, my dad,

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Speaker 1: even if my parents are divorced or to have my back,

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Speaker 1: ought to be there for me A lot of people

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Speaker 1: realize just what you said, the person didn't have the

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Speaker 1: capacity to do it, and they dropped the expectation. You

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Speaker 1: know that cliche and that expectations or disappointments waiting to happen.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it really is true. I think also, I'm

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Speaker 1: not quite sure what your agents are. But when you like,

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Speaker 1: if you're thinking about a person in their thirties and

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Speaker 1: forties and a parent in their sixties and seventies, it's

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Speaker 1: not like the other person's going to change these expectations

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Speaker 1: that I'll get back into this. The other person becomes X,

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Speaker 1: Y or Z. So I think you hit the nail

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Speaker 1: right on the head. Is you have to look in advance.

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Speaker 1: What can I accept about this? And is a restore

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Speaker 1: it albeit imperfect relationship worth it? You know. The thing

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Speaker 1: is is we started write with the reconciliation, but I

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Speaker 1: want to start from the beginning of like the feeling

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Speaker 1: we can go back. It's like it's like a Tarantino movie.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm a nonlinear guy. It's funny because you're

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Speaker 1: more linear than I just want this interview to turn

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Speaker 1: into like Oliver's therapy sessions. It's not every time Hoffman

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Speaker 1: he talk I didn't say the word Hoffman. Well, you

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Speaker 1: implied I went to the Hoffman Institute, great place. We

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Speaker 1: won't get into everything, although it's what people want to hear, Kate. No.

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Speaker 1: So just it's interesting that you say that because no

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Speaker 1: one's changing. He's not changing, but there's been an acceptance

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Speaker 1: in a sense. Our relationship isn't much better than it

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Speaker 1: was before, but there's an ease to it now. There's

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Speaker 1: some texting here and there, but I'm okay with that.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's something for me. Yeah, you know, I think.

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious about the contrast too, because that's what

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Speaker 1: I found is very often when people said, Okay, why

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Speaker 1: did you reconcile? So you've been estranged almost one hundred percent,

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Speaker 1: and really the other person I wasn't concerned about he

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Speaker 1: or she can go jump in the lake. I did

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Speaker 1: this for me. So one of my favorite quotes from

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Speaker 1: the study is a guy who was estranged from his

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Speaker 1: brother for twenty five years called him. They had sort

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Speaker 1: of a semi reconciliation. He said, I woke up the

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Speaker 1: next morning realizing it's the first time in twenty five

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Speaker 1: years this hasn't been in the back of my mind

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Speaker 1: that I don't talk to my brother. So some people

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Speaker 1: find it, you know, like a weight off their shoulders

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Speaker 1: kind of. It helps them move head with their own

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Speaker 1: personal development. On the other hand, if a relationship is

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Speaker 1: dangerous or abusive or damaging, people have to make their

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Speaker 1: own choice. Well, reconciliation is almost selfish in a sense, right,

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Speaker 1: because it's for you. It's it's for personal benefit in

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Speaker 1: a way. It's it's what you said, Oh, if once

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Speaker 1: I reconcile and come to terms, I feel better. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting, if I can digress briefly, what

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Speaker 1: is interesting is that, you know, in a much smaller

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Speaker 1: scale way, you know, like so it used to be

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Speaker 1: that folks who are well known, like you, these family

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Speaker 1: issues that would come out in the tabloids or whatever,

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Speaker 1: but everybody else would be more private. Now with the

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Speaker 1: advent of social media this you know, if somebody is

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Speaker 1: having a difficult relationship for hither or her parent, you know,

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Speaker 1: all one thousand of their Facebook fans now and the

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Speaker 1: other person has I think that same feeling of an

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Speaker 1: ability to defend himself against it. Yeah, so you know,

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Speaker 1: it's both for you. It was on this enormous scale,

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Speaker 1: but even for you know, kind of more regular folks.

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Speaker 1: They're they're seeing these things made public in a way

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Speaker 1: that really affects the whole dynamic. You know, Oliver would

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Speaker 1: like do something public, like he did this post one time.

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Speaker 1: Well this is what I want to do. He was

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Speaker 1: like abandonment day and my dad wanted to. Like Katie,

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Speaker 1: she just like what, I don't know what I do know.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up because I was scared too,

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Speaker 1: because Kate doesn't want to good. But which was so

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Speaker 1: interesting because very often in these estrangement there's an event

377
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Speaker 1: like that, this thing happens that. But here's what's here's

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Speaker 1: what's so interesting. The reconciliation, at least personally, came from

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Speaker 1: this crazy Instagram post where I said happy abandonment Day.

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Speaker 1: It was it was a picture of my father's day.

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Speaker 1: It was Father's Day and it was a picture of myself, Kate,

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Speaker 1: my dad in nicer times, and I wrote happy abandonment Day.

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Speaker 1: That's my sort of dark sense of humor. The whole

384
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Speaker 1: Dad issue has been Dorman. It makes the point and

385
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Speaker 1: got a hand to you. But the whole Dad thing

386
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: had been dormant for years and years and years. It

387
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 1: just wasn't even a concept in our lives. And then

388
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Speaker 1: boom and ignited it. He's back out in the press.

389
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Speaker 1: He's disowning us, saying he'd take Hudson name and they

390
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: need to lose their Hudson name. And that prompted me

391
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Speaker 1: to say, all right, let's go. I got into contact

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Speaker 1: with him, three hour conversation and then boom. That's where

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Speaker 1: this came out of. At least my reconciliation with my

394
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: father came out of that, that moment of you know,

395
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 1: but what's so interesting is that I have my relationship

396
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: is so different. Yeah, but you know that that's so

397
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 1: classic from other research we've done. You know, two people

398
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 1: can grow up in the same family, share half their

399
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: genes and have completely different relationships. So with the parents,

400
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: you know, each person creates their micro environment. You know.

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Speaker 1: One thing I found in doing these interviews is so

402
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Speaker 1: I would I would start these interviews with people who

403
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: were a strange you know, because several hundred people and

404
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: they and there were some who would begin by saying, no,

405
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's just an awful person. This is great.

406
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: I felt free and liberated, and by the time the

407
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: interview was halfway through, they were crying, you know, because

408
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: there are these basic fundamental biological processes of attachment. Even

409
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: if it's only until eighteen months, you know, you get

410
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: attached to people in irrational ways. So very often I

411
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: would have it seems to be more daughters of a

412
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: strange fathers would say, I want it in my life

413
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Speaker 1: and I don't know why, you know, And the partial

414
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: answer to why is that you have early processes of

415
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Speaker 1: bonding and a family that you just can't completely forget about,

416
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Speaker 1: and that desire is still they are, or at least

417
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Speaker 1: that ambivalence, like you know, kind of should I stay

418
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Speaker 1: or should I go? You know, is it worth making

419
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: an overture? And you know, I think that is really

420
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: the question is oh or the other thing? I would

421
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: add one thing I would encourage somebody from these interviews,

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00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: you know, to ask themselves, is what's in it for me?

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Speaker 1: So here's one thing that people did find and what

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00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 1: family therapists will also tell you that the difference between

425
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: estrangement and just a negative relationship is that things freeze.

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00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: So I've always thought of it like that scene in

427
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: Sleeping Beauty that I was obsessed with as a kid,

428
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: you know, or like and when she pricks her finger

429
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: on the needle, everything freezes, like the d answers are

430
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: midway and half step, and it freezes that way for

431
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: one hundred years. So all this stuff goes on and

432
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: you have no access to it. You have no access

433
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: to information how the person might change, how dynamics may

434
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: have switched, and you can't if you're in therapy or so,

435
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 1: let's say, there isn't the live material to engage with.

436
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 1: And so what a lot of people said is, you

437
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: know the difference with just a little contact was the

438
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: person is then back and you can, like it could

439
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: become kind of an engine for personal growth right now,

440
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: once again barring it being too damaging or painful. So

441
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: it really squirts you up. But if you're protected against that,

442
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: having the person there so you can't assess what's going

443
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: on is there were a lot of people who found

444
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: that very helpful. What's interesting is, I mean, maybe half

445
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: of my girlfriends have complicated relationships with their fathers. I

446
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: was thinking about that the other day. One of my

447
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: best girlfriends also estranged from her father, but she never

448
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: knew him, and then when she got older, she went

449
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: and looked for him. And when she went to look

450
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: for him. She found out that he had died, and

451
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, I'm like, I almost like think

452
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: that might be better than having like this roller coaster

453
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: of sort of you know they're there, you know that

454
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: they like have other families and that they you know,

455
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: if you just don't know, then you just don't know.

456
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: You know. It's sort of it's like an empty space

457
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: versus like a fucked up complicated space exactly. You know,

458
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: I use the term in the book someone Else developed

459
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: ambiguous loss you space, you know, because a person is

460
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: psychologically present but physically absent, you know. And so you know,

461
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: I had a number of people who said that, even

462
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: though they wouldn't want this to happen, it would have

463
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: been easier if the person had died because they would

464
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: have known what to do, you know. But as one

465
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: person said, like, this is no funeral, no closure, you know,

466
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: it just goes sort of on and on. I do

467
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: wonder and nobody studied this, you know, In terms of

468
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: child relations what the dynamics and the interaction of a

469
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: celebrity with those relationships are. I mean, most people's kids'

470
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: lives aren't played out in public, and the parents might

471
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: not know how to adjust to this, and in some

472
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: case is may take advantage of it. You know, it's

473
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: just talking to you. I was thinking, I wonder how

474
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: these dynamics, you know, really might be different. Well, you know,

475
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: because you read like now in your case it's different.

476
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: But you know, the father's a factory worker, the mother

477
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: is a school teacher, and the kid becomes you know,

478
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: the sort of world famous celebrity. It's going to have

479
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: an impact on how parents and children relate to one another.

480
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: If that's too far afield, no, no, it's not. It's

481
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: a great question, I think. I think it's an interesting

482
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: question too. I mean, I I it's an interesting one

483
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: because you may be surprised. I think that it's not

484
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: that different, or maybe I'm only saying that because it's

485
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: my experience. I do think that as far as expectation goes,

486
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: you know, the cliche is you just want what your

487
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: parents had, but maybe a little bit more. You know,

488
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: Kate achieved that. But I'm just saying there's an ex

489
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: and and again we came from the same stock, but

490
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: there's expectations that you put on yourself, and sometimes that

491
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: expectations will catapult you, and sometimes it suppresses you. I

492
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: don't think that's what he's what he's asking is about.

493
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: I didn't get to know so that relationship was saying

494
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: that parent, that parent daughter son relationship. You know, when

495
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: you're dealing with celebrity, it can, it can. I don't

496
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. I don't know what you're saying.

497
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure what you are. Well, you fucked

498
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: me up. You interrupted me I was trying to say.

499
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: I think what he's saying is these sort of people

500
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: were interrupting public. We're keeping the sin so everyone can see.

501
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: It's such a public I'm happy to keep it in

502
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: because you'll see that you're the one that I'm going

503
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: to strange myself from you. I'm going to strange myself

504
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: from you right now. It'll last like five seconds and

505
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: then they'll be like crying, I love you, I love you.

506
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like you know. Our parents,

507
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: for just our experience is probably really different than I

508
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: think a lot of people, whether it be an highly

509
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: kind of affluent house households or celebrity households. They really

510
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: protected us from seeing anything. Yeah, but overall, I mean

511
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: I did not like the celebrity aspect of it. I

512
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 1: hated when people would come to the table and ask

513
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: for their autograph. It made me angry. You know. I

514
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: was like, I was like, get the fuck away. You

515
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: know that that was my feeling. Leave us alone, you know.

516
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: Or when you walk through the airport and at the time,

517
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: people would jump out and start photographing you. I hated it.

518
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: Now he's like, I did not like it. Now he

519
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: just dies for Kate. Kate. Kate was posing and you know,

520
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: she was like, oh my god, they're here. Yeah, you

521
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: should see some of my airport pictures when I'm four.

522
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: I just I hated it. I mean, so, you know,

523
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: but you know, I think you guys are saying something

524
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: that makes me think. You know that this is one

525
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: phenomenon that is kind of an equal opportunity phenomenon. Like

526
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: we also in the surveys that we did, we for example,

527
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: looked at so we looked at differences in how many

528
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: people reported estrangements by race or gender, by kind of

529
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: socioeconomic status, and there just really aren't any differences. It's

530
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: like an equal opportunity problem that you know, as we've discussed,

531
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: has kind of as many origin. You know, It's like

532
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: the snowflakes are never the same. I mean, each one,

533
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: even though there's a lot in common, each one is

534
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: its own sort of individual pathway, and uh, you know right.

535
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: It gets played out on different platforms, but really the

536
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: basic dynamics are pretty similar, I think. Yeah. I was

537
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: kind of saying that in an interview the other day,

538
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: and someone asked me about it because I had mentioned

539
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: that I wanted to reach out to my celebrities, and

540
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: I mean my celebrities, that I wanted to reach out

541
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: to my siblings. But I was saying that celebrities, it's

542
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: no different the experience or what how it manifests or

543
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: feels like than someone who's not a celebrity. The idea

544
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: that you know, estrangement is estrangement. I mean, abandonment is abandonment.

545
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: Neglect is neglect no matter where, it doesn't discriminate, It comes,

546
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: it exists, it happens, and it manifests itself differently in

547
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: different people. You're right too. I thought it's a problem

548
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: too that money can't sort of buy your way out

549
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: of Oliver. This is my this is my one of

550
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: my favorite ads that we do. I know because with you,

551
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: I use each and every now, each and every day.

552
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: I actually use it multiple times a day when I'm

553
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: feeling like I need a little extra under the pits. Kis.

554
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: I have an each and every natural deodorant in my

555
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: glove box right now as we speak. And you know what,

556
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: I really would kind of scream to the masses, please

557
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: switch to natural deodorant for your health. So it's really

558
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: important that we wear natural deodorant. I know that it's

559
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: hard to find a good one, and that's always been

560
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: anybody say, it's been around for a minute, right, you

561
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: put rocks under your arms where there's like rocks of

562
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: natural doant. It never ever worked. This actually works. You

563
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 1: don't stink. It's a great it's a really good formulation.

564
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: And they have a brand new scent which is beautiful.

565
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: I just I just got it. It's called white cama

566
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: Meal and Bergamont. It's beautiful. But they have a lot

567
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: of different sense there's lavender and lemon, cannabis and green tea,

568
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: cedar and vanilla. It's a vegan, it's cruelty free and

569
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just it makes me feel good

570
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: about using it. That's the kinds of products I like

571
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: to lean into. If you know what I mean it's

572
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: eco conscious, it's it's carbon negative. All the packaging they

573
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 1: use is all eco friendly. It's actually sugarcane packaging. But

574
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: don't put it in your coffee. We know you're gonna

575
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: love each and every as much as we do such

576
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: a dork, So order today take our advice. Order their

577
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,520
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578
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579
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580
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581
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: That's thirty percent off with promo code sibling at each

582
00:35:51,680 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: and every dot Com slash sibling. Oliver, do you want

583
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: to know that people are soon going to find out

584
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: about how often I use the beauty blender? Do you

585
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: want to know why? Because I'm about to go live

586
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: on TikTok Oh you are, yep, I'm going to venture

587
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: into the TikTok world. And one of the ones that

588
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: I've been doing, you know, I've been kind of like

589
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: seeing how it works and vibing out and one of

590
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: the things I've been doing with my makeup artist is,

591
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: you know, when she's doing my face, I'm just like

592
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: doing weird posts, trying to figure out TikTok, and she's

593
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: always using the beauty blender. And I have to say,

594
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: it's a makeup sponge and it's the number one cosmetic

595
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: tool in America. Every makeup artist has this, every influent

596
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: beauty influencer in the world. This is the beauty blender is.

597
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: As far as I'm concerned, I must have tool for

598
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: anyone who loves to put on makeup. And that means

599
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: you too, Oliver Hudson, because we know you ain't shy

600
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: putting on a little contour and some concealer. Let's be honest,

601
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to I contour the shit out of myself.

602
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: But you know what I love. They have a collection.

603
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: They have a collection of original pink Zodiac blenders in

604
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 1: all signs. Yes, so I'm a Virgo, I'm an Aries, yeah,

605
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: and so my blender is Virgo based, which means it's

606
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: very organized. Anyway, you know, they just launched this biopure

607
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: makeup sponge. It's sustainable. It's made out of sixty percent

608
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: plant based of renewable sugar cane. Sugar cane is in

609
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: right now. This is what everyone is using. And they

610
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: sent me this sponge and it's beautiful and it really

611
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: there's no difference, and I just think that the more

612
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 1: we buy this biopure makeup sponge, the more they're going

613
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: to make it. It's just like the original. It's designed

614
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: to be used and it creates less waste of your product,

615
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: and it's made in the USA, free of gluten, latex, parabins, celfates,

616
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 1: and fluff flights. Beauty Blender is offering twenty percent off

617
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,560
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618
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619
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: I really think this is interesting the shame part. I

620
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: really do want to head on the shame part because

621
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: you're saying something about social media, and it's something that

622
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: I love about what's happening now. I think so many

623
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: people come out and talk about whether it be mental

624
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: illness or alcoholism, drug abuse, things that eats, eating disorder,

625
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: things that we've hid behind the shame of estrangement. Like,

626
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm curious as to what your findings are are on

627
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: that I know my personal relationship to it is, but

628
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: on a whole what kind of shame do you so

629
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 1: you know I've noticed it in myself. So what people

630
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: would say. Actually, one of the quotes in the book

631
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: is a woman said, you know, you mentioned this to

632
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,479
Speaker 1: people at dinner, and they treat it like you're talking

633
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: about your hemorrhoids. You know, it's just not something somebody

634
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: is going to ask any more questions about the sense

635
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: of the other person, assuming that there's got to be

636
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: something wrong with you. And that is particularly true of parents.

637
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: But also it's almost like an involuntary like med magazine,

638
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: like what they're really thinking bubble over your head, you know,

639
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: like when the person says, I just don't see my

640
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: son anymore, you know, he decided that he doesn't want

641
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: to have anything more to do with us. Most people

642
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: have an ingrained assumption that the person themselves, you know,

643
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: did something wrong. So I think that's part of the shame.

644
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: There's also another really interesting kind of popular social science fact.

645
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: It's true that parents care more. So we know from

646
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: and you probably know this from your own kids. You've

647
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: invested all this time and energy and effort, and if

648
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: God for me and any of our kids so were

649
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: to say I don't want to see you anymore, you know,

650
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: you feel like you've lost all of that. You know

651
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: that you've invested. So the one thing I say to parents,

652
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: by the way, is be careful about how you treat

653
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: your kids in the sense that it's easier for them

654
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 1: to get out of the relationship than it is for you.

655
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: So that's part of it. But so I think that's

656
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: part of the shame. And we know that as people

657
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: get older, their social networks start to shrink and they

658
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: become more reliant on family members for their day to

659
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: day well being, and so they start to feel the

660
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: estrangement acutely. I think what two folks are doing is

661
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: really bringing this out into the open and having people

662
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: talk about it as just something that happens to a

663
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: lot of people is very liberating for others. I've gotten

664
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: that response, you know, to the book. Many of my

665
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: interviewees said it was the first time they talked to

666
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: anybody about it. So I don't know, You're right. I

667
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 1: guess the question why people do experience it is so

668
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: stigmatizing is an interesting one. You said something that made

669
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 1: me think, like, Okay, well, if I'm a parent and

670
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: my child says I'm done with you, I never want

671
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: to see you again, my instinct wouldn't be to defend

672
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: my position. My instinct would be to immediately want to connect, right,

673
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: and I think that that's where I would judge. That's

674
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: why I could I could see where the stigma comes from,

675
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: because immediately if someone said, yeah, my son won't see me,

676
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: I'd I'm immediately like, what did you do? What does

677
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: that have to do with shame that you would feel that.

678
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: I get the shame. You're a shamed because you could

679
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: have done something right. Shame. It feels like shame can

680
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: stop reconciliation, meaning you feel so much shame that you

681
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: are not even able to reconcile. But I think you

682
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: there's a really good point that we don't you know

683
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: that that we think of someone else's shame as a barrier.

684
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: But I think you're right that people feel sort of guilty,

685
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: you know, and ashamed and it and it sort of

686
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: blocks them. Kate, in response to what you said too,

687
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: I wanted to say that, you know, my guess is

688
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: that you're feeling the way you do. If that happened

689
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: that with one of your kids means it's likely that

690
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: you won't become a strange for them. A phenomenon I

691
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: discovered in this research, though, is some parents when their child,

692
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: you know, begins this process of rejecting, them develop what

693
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: I call defensive ignorance. So they've becomes so defensive that

694
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: they can't take in any new information about the relationship.

695
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: And that's something that we know from social psychology that

696
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: people do in response to rejection because it so affects

697
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: our internal image of our celph that we protect it,

698
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: you know, we kind of cluster around it by being defensive.

699
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: So one of the most interesting things that I discovered

700
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 1: in doing these interviews is often parents, in particular, we'd

701
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: say right away, we'd sit down and we talk. They'd say,

702
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 1: I have no idea what's happened. I just can't understand.

703
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: And then you'd hear them describe a litany of conflicts

704
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: and the kids written them a dozen letters to explain it.

705
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 1: And then they'll come around and say, but I have

706
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: no idea why this happened. So sometimes people feel ashamed

707
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: enough that they completely revert to the other side, become

708
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: extremely defensive. You'll see this in social network in social

709
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: media groups where you know, the kids have abandoned them

710
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,919
Speaker 1: and they've deserted them, and adult children do the same

711
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: thing that they become very defensive, and it blocks any

712
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: reasonable thinking. One thing I discovered and some family therapists say,

713
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 1: is that parents think that their kids are angry, hostile,

714
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: or narcissistic. For a lot of adult children, they're estrangements

715
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: are motivated by anxiety. They're anxious. They're afraid that if

716
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: they get back together with mom or dad, they're going

717
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: to be pulled into their old way of behaving. They're

718
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: going to be sucked into a family role that makes

719
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 1: them like unbearably anxious, or they're going to be criticized

720
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: or belittled, or their lifestyle choices are so even more

721
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: than anger, there's this undercurrent of anxiety that keeps people

722
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: a strength. Yeah, the anxiety is real. That's and let

723
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: me I have a questions. Do you think is is

724
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: death the main catalyst for getting back together, for reconciliation

725
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: meaning morbidity, It's like, we're all going to die, and

726
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 1: what's that going to be like? When dad dies? A

727
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: big motivation for why? You know, Like they're kind of

728
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: steps and when people start to think about reconciling, there's

729
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: kind of a contemplation stage where it just occurs to

730
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: them and then they begin to make real plans. A

731
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: big part of that contemplation stage is what you know

732
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: in the book I call anticipated regret that people do

733
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: start to think, as one of my respondents said, I

734
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: didn't want to be that person who left, you know,

735
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 1: who left this world with somebody holding a grudge against

736
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: me or me holding a grudge against them. So I

737
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: think I don't have date on this, but I've gotten

738
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: tons of anecdotal evidence, and people are reconnecting during the

739
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 1: pandemic more than they were that there's this sense that

740
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: now may be too late, So I think I agree

741
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: on I think it's a very strong motivation for a

742
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: lot of people that they don't you know that it's

743
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: gonna you know, deathbed reconciliations might not occur, and you know,

744
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: as they perceive a limited time horizon. It's definitely a

745
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: big part of why people choose to reconcile. What is

746
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: the number one estrangement that you saw in your research,

747
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: Like was it parent child or was it sibling sibling?

748
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: You know, interestingly parent child and sibling were about equal,

749
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: so that it's like so there around nine percent of

750
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: the population is a strange from a sibling and around

751
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: ten is a strange from a parent. And then there

752
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: are people for whom like if they've grown up with

753
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: cousins and then the parents have a fight and they

754
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: can't see them anymore, for whom that is really painful.

755
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: So I did include other relatives. Now there's good news there.

756
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,959
Speaker 1: I mean, the ninety percent of parents and children aren't

757
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: a strange, but still ten percent of people at this

758
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 1: very moment, you know, kind of lying awake at night

759
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 1: and looking up at the ceiling and thinking about it

760
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,959
Speaker 1: is a pretty big I have a lot of ten

761
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: percents in my life. I'm left handed. I'm I'm what

762
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: does that mean, I'm a strange You're just strange? Oh,

763
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: now what about both? Do you find that the people

764
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 1: who are estranged from a parent are also estranged from

765
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: a sibling? You know, it has really interesting dynamics In

766
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: some there's a big issue when siblings have dramatically different views,

767
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: And as you've pointed out, we think of siblings as

768
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 1: growing up in the same family, and really don't. I mean,

769
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: if you're three or four years apart, you've had a

770
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: very different family environment. So I know a family, for example,

771
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: there was a family in the study. Dad was a

772
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: raging alcoholic for the first five or six years and

773
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: then got sober. So the two kids had very very

774
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:05,879
Speaker 1: different experiences. It does cause so there's collateral damage here too,

775
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: and one of you know, so when a strangement it's

776
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: occur I talk about, it has these ripple effects and

777
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: sometimes siblings don't want the other siblings, you know, to

778
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: reconcile if they're if three of them were really pissed

779
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: it down or mom, it can estrange them from the

780
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: siblings if that person decides to get back together. You know.

781
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: It's a cliche, but that's why we call family systems, right,

782
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 1: I mean, each each you know, pair in the family

783
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: affects the other ones. But yeah, I think there is

784
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: a relationship there for it's a guilt estrangement too. I mean,

785
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: what if we're in a situation where like I can't

786
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: believe that you're having a conversation or that you are

787
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: even connecting with this person? How dare you you know,

788
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: which you do all the time. No, I'm kidding, but

789
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: that must happen, right, I mean where it's sort of

790
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Yeah, I know it causes We also

791
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: we actually included in the study between forty and fifty

792
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: college students, because a lot of what's been written about

793
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,760
Speaker 1: estrangement has been you know, people in your folks age range,

794
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: and they feel incredibly caught in the middle, like they

795
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: really are part of collateral damage. You know, students who

796
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: would say, I mean, I go home for the holiday

797
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: and the first thing is mom tells me what her

798
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: mother did that last week, or what her siblings did,

799
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: or so that it puts incredible pressure on people who

800
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: are either trying to be peacemakers or like you said,

801
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 1: you know, they make the connection and everybody else gets

802
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 1: ahead about it. So, yeah, it causes a lot of complications.

803
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 1: What about the study of it affecting Like is it genetic?

804
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: Like is estrangement something that carries and could it be genetic?

805
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting question, and it's one that we

806
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: clearly don't have any data. There obviously are genetic predispositions

807
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: in the different kinds of relationships. So you know, there's

808
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: some people who are by nature more irritable or more

809
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: difficult or less conscientious, et cetera. But you know, it's

810
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: so hard to tangle that from a family history of

811
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: this cultural pattern where a family has just a family

812
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: history of cutting one another off and people learn it.

813
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: So that would be a great study for the future.

814
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: You know, it feels more learned learn right than actually

815
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: there are schools of family therapy that the first thing

816
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: they would do with you is doing kind of a genogram,

817
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 1: and I describe in the book how I did that,

818
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: and it made me realize the impact in my grandparents generation.

819
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: They all thought my mom. Then my dad died when

820
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: I was an infant, and my mom had four kids,

821
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 1: you know, and was struggling, and we had these cousins

822
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 1: and folks three or four hours away who would have

823
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: been really like kind of real family to us. But

824
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: because people ninety years ago, you know, argued over a

825
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: house after the patriarch died, we had no contact. So

826
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: there are these family themes without a question, like you've described,

827
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: it's also origin, you know what I mean, Like we

828
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: don't really know where we come from on that side,

829
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: to be a sit down and relate and even to

830
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: feel that interconnection that is that you can't really put

831
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: your fingers on. I mean, when I sat down with

832
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 1: my dad and looking at him across from the table,

833
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: it was crazy to see myself and to almost hear

834
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 1: my voice and he got emotional because he saw himself

835
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 1: and me and it was really gnarly. And we have

836
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 1: we don't have We've never had that with the Hudson's

837
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: side of the family to really feel that side of us. See.

838
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 1: But that's the thing I would say about that too,

839
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: that there's one thing that we forget. So when people

840
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: talk about estrangement, is that really the family. No matter

841
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: what you hear in the media and the press about

842
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: the death of the American family or how we're in

843
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: a post family area, for most people, these are the

844
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 1: most stable relationships that they ever experienced throughout their entire

845
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 1: life course. One line of research, for example, is when

846
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: people look at changes in social networks like so you

847
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: do a survey like who are your closest associates? And

848
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 1: then you do it again ten years later. Everybody changes

849
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: except for your family, your spouse, your best friends. But

850
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: the ones whour is still usually there are if you

851
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: have adult children and they're still there. If you have

852
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: living parents, they're still there. We still rely on the

853
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: family to like, you know, what's Robert's frost line. When

854
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: you go there, they have to take you in. And

855
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 1: that's why people feel unmoored when it goes away. It

856
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: may not be conscious sadness, but it's just not that

857
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: sense that here's this latent. You know, in sociology we

858
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,760
Speaker 1: can use this sociology term we talk about social capital.

859
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 1: You know, the same way you have I'm a capital.

860
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: You have social capital, this reservoir of people that if

861
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 1: you needed it, they would be there for you, even

862
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: if you don't talk to them that much. And that's

863
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:14,760
Speaker 1: what estrangement really severs. And that I think is why,

864
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: you know, like without preaching, it's good to explore these connections.

865
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: It's not just help, but these rich family stories and

866
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 1: you know, like for your kids where they came from

867
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: if I can. One of the best things my interview

868
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: he said to me that really stuck with me is

869
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: she was having a whole lot of problems with her mother.

870
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: Her mother was really pretty much of a terrible person.

871
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: They'd been a strange for a long time. So maybe

872
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: after twenty five years she was having kids and her

873
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:51,760
Speaker 1: kids were getting older, and she said, you know, every

874
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: person has basically one hundred and fifty years of history.

875
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: Because you've talked to your grandmother when she's seventy five,

876
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: and she talked to her grandmother so you know, like

877
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: there's an old person right now who's talked to somebody

878
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: who might have lived somewhat after the Civil War. She said,

879
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: you don't want to break that connection. That's or you know,

880
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 1: this long history and a family, so you know that

881
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,399
Speaker 1: is an important point. I think you're saying that you've

882
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 1: got this vast, interesting array of interesting people that, even

883
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 1: if they aren't used, you'd like somebody to have access

884
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: to you because it grounds you in the world. I

885
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: don't know if that makes sense. No, it does, because

886
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: you're also cutting your own kids off from their their

887
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 1: history in a sense by not engaging or reconciling. I

888
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: like talking about upstart. I think this is a really

889
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,280
Speaker 1: important thing for a lot of people. We don't learn

890
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: about money in school, and we create a lot of debt,

891
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: and we have multiple credit cards too, and it's hard

892
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: to keep track of everything. And that's what upstart does.

893
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 1: So the idea of this is this, if you have

894
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: multiple credit cards and you're tracking multiple balances, due dates

895
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,479
Speaker 1: and website logins, it can get nuts. So upstart makes

896
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: things very simple with one monthly payment in one place.

897
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: It consolidates it all into one space in one place.

898
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 1: So whether you're paying off credit cards or consolidating high

899
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: interest rates, or funding personal expenses. Over half a million

900
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: people have used upstart to get a simple fixed monthly

901
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: payment Boom, one and done. Baby. It's just it's a

902
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: fast and easy way to get a personal loan to

903
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 1: pay off your debt. And it's all online, so it

904
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: finds you smarter rates with trusted partners because they assess

905
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: more than just your credit score. You take a five

906
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: minute online rate check, you can see your rate upfront

907
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: for loans from one thousand to fifty thousand bucks. You

908
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: can get approved the same day and receive funds as

909
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: fast as one business day. So if debt is taken

910
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 1: over your life, get yourself some upstart, make a fresh start.

911
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: This is a great way to kind of take that

912
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: pressure off, I think. So find out how upstart can

913
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: lower your monthly payments today when you go to upstart

914
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 1: dot com slash sibling. That's upstart dot com slash sibling.

915
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: Don't forget to use our ur L to let them

916
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: know that we sent you. Kate and Oliver Hudson sent you.

917
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: Loan amounts will be determined based on your credit, income,

918
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 1: and certain other information provided in your loan application, So

919
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: go to upstart dot com slash sibling. You know, the

920
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 1: one thing that we know about families, and you both

921
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 1: of you have more than one kid. I can't remember three,

922
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 1: we both have three, so that you know the one

923
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: thing which research shows us by the way that two

924
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: kids growing up in the same family are no more

925
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: similar to one another in personality and other characteristics than

926
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: are too randomly selected kids. It's like, even though you've

927
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 1: probably noticed it, like they're these huge within family differences.

928
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: So even though they share half their genes, they're like

929
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: really different. You know, they sort of create their own environments.

930
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's important to send a

931
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 1: message on this topic that you know, don't stand in

932
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: a way. I think for people of a sibling whose

933
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: reconciliation attempts are going on, I mean, their memories may

934
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: be very different, their sense of who the parent is,

935
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: their level of forgiveness, you know, and it may have

936
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: to be a little bit of a present company excluded,

937
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: but it might have to be a bit of a

938
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 1: demilitarized zone among siblings. You know. This can be a

939
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: tough thing and one of the things that a lot

940
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: of the people who reconcile found is that some kind

941
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: of professional counseling if you're in this contemplation stage and

942
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: do I really want to do this? Both both some

943
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: kind of formal counseling, not that the other person's there,

944
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: but just understanding why do I want this? Is it realistic?

945
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: If I make an overture? Will I be rejected? If

946
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 1: I'm not rejected and the relationship sucks, you know, how

947
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: will I respond to it? So I think that kind

948
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: of preparation and also bringing in your other supporters. So

949
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: I had a bunch of people who were ready to

950
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: make that contact with a long historied sibling or parent,

951
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: and they engage their spouse. So there was there were

952
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: some folks. I think of one in particular where she

953
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: was going to you know, each time she would talk

954
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 1: to her mother as they were reconciling, her partner would

955
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: be in the room and he could sense when it

956
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,520
Speaker 1: was going beyond what she was going to be able

957
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: to handle. So I'm bringing in your actressing, right, He'd

958
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: be like, Oh, I think we should make it another

959
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 1: pot of coffee? Should I Should you go make another

960
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 1: pot of coffee? Yep? I should have exactly Oh, you

961
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: know my hemoroids. Honey, you're acting up because you know

962
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: the one thing I don't know if you've experiences yet,

963
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: you know, I get accused. And there have been some

964
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: you know, callings to shows I've been on about like, well,

965
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: you know, why do I sort of promote this reconciliation

966
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: idea And I'm really not. It's just what emerged from

967
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 1: the research why. I'd say one of the most interesting

968
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: things I learned is that people describe the process of

969
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: reconciliation even if it didn't work out. So, even if

970
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: they tried and it didn't work out, as this really

971
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: sort of enormous engine for personal growth, that it was

972
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: kind of like a challenge or discipline, like it was

973
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: the hardest thing that some of them had ever did.

974
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: The way you're describing it right now, it's kind of

975
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: like that. And being I had a surprising number of

976
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 1: people to say, I mean, really, with my parents getting

977
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: back into some relationship with them, if I can do that,

978
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 1: I can do anything. So there was this sense of

979
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: life of a major life challenge overcome, even if imperfect.

980
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: That made them feel like really good about themselves and

981
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: their other relationships. So and that was even in cases

982
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 1: where you know, they gave the person one more chance.

983
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: They tried that's actually, if I can continue to juggernaut

984
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: on for one more minute, one of the things that

985
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: you might try, and almost everybody who successfully reconciled it.

986
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: But they would often offer one last chance. And you

987
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: might say, people would say to me, oh, no, I've

988
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 1: done it again and again, but they would offer one

989
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 1: last chance with very specific terms like, look, if you

990
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: want back in, here's what has to happen, and there's

991
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: one more chance. So you can't criticize my husband, you

992
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: can't tell me how to raise my kids. I don't

993
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 1: want to hear your political beliefs. You know, we'll get

994
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: together three times a year. They laid out very clear

995
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 1: terms for what it was going to be like, and

996
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 1: then they ended it if it didn't work, and they

997
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 1: protected themselves by those really clear boundaries, and that was

998
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 1: really helpful because otherwise, the way you've been describing it,

999
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 1: things get all much. You know what, Michael, One thing

1000
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 1: could be nobody here is talking to the media about

1001
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 1: this during the period of time that we're trying to

1002
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: make this work. I mean, that's our restriction, right, you know,

1003
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: more like whatever it would be so mutually agreed upon

1004
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: this can't happen if we're going to try this. And

1005
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 1: that worked for a bunch of people, I mean, when

1006
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: nothing works for everybody. But that was a pretty good

1007
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: sperience and uncovering the lessons in my life, you know,

1008
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: looking at how to break certain patterns. One of the

1009
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 1: things that I found was creating boundaries was one of

1010
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 1: the hardest things for me, and how liberating it was

1011
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: when I actually allowed myself to have my own boundaries

1012
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: right of how to be treated or what I'm willing

1013
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: to accept from any relationship or any friendship or any

1014
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: love relationship. Right. And I think that it directly does

1015
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 1: correlate with not having any understanding of boundaries with that

1016
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: parental figure at all. I think that's probably very true. Yeah,

1017
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: And so when you said that that kind of rang

1018
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 1: that that in itself just as a practice that would probably,

1019
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: I would assume, be a huge step for someone to

1020
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: be able to reconcile with laying out those boundaries. It

1021
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 1: probably would feel quite empowering for them. Yeah, I mean,

1022
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 1: people would say, you know, I'm hanging up the phone

1023
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 1: if X happens, or and often after someone's been estranged,

1024
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: especially from a child, they're pretty willing, they're compromised, so

1025
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 1: you know, it can at least be worth an attempt,

1026
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: and then you don't feel so guilty if you know,

1027
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 1: if you've offered the person at least a chance. I

1028
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: want to kind of just dabble a little bit onto

1029
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: things that are a little bit darker and harder to reconcile,

1030
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:08,919
Speaker 1: like any kind of physical abuse or sexual abuse. These

1031
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 1: are things that you know, we can sit here and

1032
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: talk about parental disputes that lead to abandonment or insecurities

1033
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: or whatever it is, but when you're dealing with actual abuse,

1034
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: how does one reconcile when they've been violated? You know,

1035
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 1: it was very interesting because from our from our Bronze

1036
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 1: Scale surveys, but we found far fewer people for whom

1037
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 1: overt abuse was the actual cause. More generally negative harsh parenting,

1038
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 1: you know, sort of bad parenting was a cause that

1039
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: there were some but you know, but actually people who

1040
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: said the reason why I can never see this parent

1041
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: is because they were abusive. Was certainly there, but was

1042
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: smaller than I had expected. I think in those cases

1043
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 1: there were some people who reconciled. I profile one woman

1044
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 1: in the book who was whose father was a drug dealer.

1045
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 1: She had to become an emancipated minor because he was

1046
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 1: physically abusive, She was sexually abused by some of his

1047
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 1: drug dealing cohorts. She went through a whole lot of stuff.

1048
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: He changed, he reformed, he'd gotten better, had gotten more stable,

1049
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: and she decided that she wanted a relationship with him.

1050
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 1: But she did an incredible amount of work on herself,

1051
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 1: first understanding why she wanted it, understanding, you know, really

1052
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 1: ascertaining that he was not like a dangerous person anymore.

1053
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: So there are some people who found that it was worthwhile.

1054
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: But that's one where I say, you know, the reconciliation

1055
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 1: isn't for everybody. Obviously in any situation there people are

1056
01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 1: better off out of your life, especially if it's heavily traumatizing.

1057
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: I wouldn't recommend that people reach out to that kind

1058
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 1: of apparent unless they really do have professional help, gain understanding,

1059
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: have a lot of support. But there are people who

1060
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 1: definitely want to do it, who've had extremely extremely adverse

1061
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: Chilbolt experiences, but say, I still want this connection, but

1062
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 1: can you have reconciliation and it's and without the other person,

1063
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 1: meaning with a situation like that where there is that

1064
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 1: kind of trauma and it's not safe and there has

1065
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 1: been no reform from the you know, the person who

1066
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 1: has done the violating. Can you have that reconciliation for

1067
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 1: yourself to move forward? Can I admit one weakness of

1068
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 1: all this work? It is the one thing I just,

1069
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: in the interest of full disclosure, what my research and

1070
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 1: the rest of the research litter literature unfortunately has not

1071
01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: a lot of guidance for is people who are stuck

1072
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 1: in an estrangement and there really is no way out

1073
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 1: of it, like you know, the other person simply refuses.

1074
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 1: Either on one hand, the person really is an awful

1075
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 1: person so you can't have contact with them, but there's

1076
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 1: still psychologically present for you, or the person just is

1077
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 1: a complete stonewaller. You know. The coping mechanisms for that

1078
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 1: are pretty much the coping mechanisms for any other loss.

1079
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 1: You know, to understand it, mourn it as a loss,

1080
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 1: get through it. I would agree with you all another.

1081
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 1: There were a number of people who said that cultivating

1082
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 1: an interior sense of forgiveness even without the other person,

1083
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 1: was liberating. And there's a lot of research on forgiveness

1084
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 1: now that does suggest that that's the case and might

1085
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: be needed nationally as well as in families at this point.

1086
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, so, but there's not a lot of guidance

1087
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: or you know, help for those folks. But I do

1088
01:06:55,920 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 1: think I would agree that this sense of I like

1089
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:04,479
Speaker 1: the way you put it internally reconciling with someone being

1090
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 1: open to forgiveness for them has helped a lot of people.

1091
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: But it's tough to know when people are stuck in

1092
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 1: this and there's no willingness or ability to reconcile, but

1093
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 1: they're just are not yet a lot of good solutions.

1094
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 1: How much are in laws? And do in laws become

1095
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:29,440
Speaker 1: a source of this of I'm never speaking to my

1096
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: mother or father again based on how she's treating my

1097
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 1: husband or vice versa. So you've got the big global

1098
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: reasons for estrangements like total value and personality differences and

1099
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: these harsh parenting, But there are two really concrete things

1100
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 1: that cause us an astonishing number of estrangements. One of

1101
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 1: them is over money and inheritance issues, where a whole

1102
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 1: family is split apart. But what I call in the

1103
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 1: book the problematic in law, it's just way more prevalent

1104
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 1: than I had thought that people get poorn between their

1105
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: family of origin and family of marriage, and either the

1106
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:19,200
Speaker 1: partner deliberately isolates a person from the family, or the

1107
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:23,640
Speaker 1: family rejects the partner, or you know, their clashes of

1108
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 1: culture or personality difference. I will say one thing about those,

1109
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:35,639
Speaker 1: Those situations were more amenable to reconciliation. You know, either

1110
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 1: the person got lost the partner who really was a

1111
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: bad person, and the family was right and the person

1112
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 1: gets reintegrated. Or it's one thing where you know, look,

1113
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 1: if you're a parent of an adult child and you

1114
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:52,000
Speaker 1: don't like your daughter in law or son in law,

1115
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 1: you simply aren't going to win that battle. It's not

1116
01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 1: a winnable battle there. It's not people aren't going to say, oh, yes,

1117
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 1: I'll get divorced so I can be around my mother.

1118
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 1: More so that parents or people have to adjust to this,

1119
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 1: you know, in law. But yeah, it's a big one.

1120
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: Is it is a major precipitate. When you said financial,

1121
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 1: It's one of the things that I've been thinking about,

1122
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, there's nothing fun about doing your

1123
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 1: will and doing your estate planning right. And I've been

1124
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 1: doing mine since I was eighteen, since I got my

1125
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 1: first paycheck. I've always been on my will. And the

1126
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 1: other day I was thinking about, I know, are you

1127
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 1: at eighteen? I had stuff that was important to me

1128
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 1: that if I died, got it. Well, you've got things

1129
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 1: in the will. No. No, I'm saying, when you're eighteen, like,

1130
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 1: what do you like, like leave my white jeeps? Yes? No,

1131
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:54,639
Speaker 1: I had. Well, I had some funds because of because

1132
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:56,759
Speaker 1: I've been working. I know, But who are you leaving

1133
01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:59,600
Speaker 1: that to? Well? I left it at that time. It

1134
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 1: was all my brothers and now no longer belongs to you.

1135
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:09,439
Speaker 1: But one of the things I was always like, and

1136
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:11,600
Speaker 1: this just happened to me recently, where I was like

1137
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 1: thinking about mortality more. My friend's parents are passing away

1138
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 1: and it causes so much friction, and not only that,

1139
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 1: you can't mourn a parent and it literally can break

1140
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 1: up a family. And oh, it's so true. I don't

1141
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 1: know why people don't tell everybody ahead of time what

1142
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:33,679
Speaker 1: the plan is. So here's the problem with wills. Wills

1143
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 1: caused so many problems because, first of all, you're right,

1144
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 1: people I found in these studies people had secret wills.

1145
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:46,519
Speaker 1: Everybody thought that they were getting everything evenly, and the

1146
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,520
Speaker 1: entire business was left to a brother. It just destroyed

1147
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 1: the family. But the problem with wills too is not

1148
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: everything is divisible, right, But like you have three or

1149
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: four kids, one is they leave everything to everybody equal.

1150
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:03,400
Speaker 1: But what if somebody loves the lake house? The only

1151
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:05,719
Speaker 1: way it could be divided equally would be to sell

1152
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 1: it and give folks the money. Or people fight about

1153
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 1: things like this. You know that grandfather clock brought over

1154
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 1: from Germany, or or the chip Thanksgiving platter that served

1155
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 1: every family's Thanksgiving turkey. Those can't be divided. So I

1156
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 1: totally agree with you, And there are programs that can

1157
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 1: help people to think this out, really talking with your

1158
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 1: survivors and heirs as to what they're going to get,

1159
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:36,639
Speaker 1: who's going to get what. It's astonishing how long lasting

1160
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:39,920
Speaker 1: these fights over wills and inheritance are. And it's not

1161
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 1: just it's not just with already negative relationships. It's actually

1162
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: with relationships that were pretty good. It's so psychologically, you know,

1163
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:52,800
Speaker 1: you're grieving already and then these things become whom I'm

1164
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 1: loved more, you know, it's insane. Yeah, And it also

1165
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:59,040
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's where it's sort of revealed,

1166
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 1: which is like you you have all of these relationships.

1167
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,000
Speaker 1: You kind of in the back of your head, You're like, you,

1168
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's the family dynamic that is could be

1169
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 1: at some point, you know, going to blow up at

1170
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,280
Speaker 1: any second, but then all of a sudden, one parent

1171
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 1: passes away. You read the will and it like validates

1172
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 1: everything that one person would have felt, and then it

1173
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: could tear you know, a family apart. I felt like,

1174
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:31,760
Speaker 1: I feel like that is a very interesting thing for

1175
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 1: people to get comfortable doing. Is talking about saying to

1176
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 1: your kids, Hey, guys, I know this is weird, but

1177
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:43,520
Speaker 1: let's go around the house and if I died tomorrow,

1178
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 1: what do you really want? Let's fight about it now

1179
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 1: while I'm here. You know, guys, we're all going to

1180
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 1: be dead. Pick what you like. The folks you'll find

1181
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 1: who are really resistant to that discussion are your kids.

1182
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:04,519
Speaker 1: I mean, we've tried it because we have adult children

1183
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 1: and nah, no, I you know, I don't want to

1184
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:10,160
Speaker 1: hear about it. But it makes an older parent feel

1185
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 1: more secure totally, I would think so. So. The one

1186
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 1: thing people can really do, and in both especially in

1187
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 1: the money situation, I had many people who were estranged

1188
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 1: as a result of that, I said, really, we should

1189
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 1: have brought an a mediator. I mean, which is something

1190
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 1: you can you know, people like again it's a little

1191
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:31,599
Speaker 1: bit of the shame they don't want to do it,

1192
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 1: but many people said, you know, this would have been prevented,

1193
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:39,519
Speaker 1: this ten year estrangement fighting over the family business, if

1194
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 1: we've brought in an objective third party. I mean in

1195
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:45,600
Speaker 1: both you know, I think the one thing like and

1196
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 1: I argue this in the book. It's based on some

1197
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 1: psychological research that if it's around and in law, if

1198
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:56,680
Speaker 1: it's around inheritance, the best thing to do is to

1199
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:01,559
Speaker 1: really sit and think, to do the imaginary exercise. What

1200
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 1: would an independent third party say about the situation, who

1201
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 1: had everybody's inferences in mind? If the family can even

1202
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:13,599
Speaker 1: begin to discuss it that way of like, you know, okay,

1203
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,720
Speaker 1: what because again we talked about the power of our

1204
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 1: own narratives, also writing, don't leave Oliver in control of

1205
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:26,400
Speaker 1: any money. That's what a third party. Don't let Oliver

1206
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:30,360
Speaker 1: be the one making any money decisions. Why not Vegas?

1207
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:31,920
Speaker 1: You go to Vegas and you put it on black

1208
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 1: there's this really great investment, double it up. Yeah, I

1209
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: think that's go be right now. People make these things.

1210
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 1: Now that's true. I see for me it would be blacktack.

1211
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, no, I feel like I could

1212
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 1: double my retirement income in my Don't let him. Don't

1213
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,640
Speaker 1: let him get in there, Carl, don't let him convince you.

1214
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:02,360
Speaker 1: Carl'll do it doing it Okay. So when you guys

1215
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:05,879
Speaker 1: so great now, so your your relationship seems really terrific.

1216
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 1: You know, well, speaking of non estrangement, no, yeah, it's

1217
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 1: been good. But it's interesting though, because there's no estrangement.

1218
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 1: But there was a period of time where we were

1219
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: not connecting or talking much at all just because of

1220
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:22,840
Speaker 1: our lives. Were just doing different things, you know, but

1221
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 1: there was no resentment, there was no estrangement. It just

1222
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 1: it just was not connected. Well, that's a piece of

1223
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:31,679
Speaker 1: estrangement to this drifting apart, because that is a pattern,

1224
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:33,599
Speaker 1: at least in our culture, that you know, you're close

1225
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 1: to your siblings as you're growing up, then you have

1226
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:40,200
Speaker 1: what could be referred to as intimacy at a distance,

1227
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:44,080
Speaker 1: and then people kind of come back together first when

1228
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 1: they themselves have kids, but then when parents get sick

1229
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 1: and and and you know, I do feel that people

1230
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 1: don't realize that you have to do some maintenance on

1231
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:57,920
Speaker 1: these sibling relationships often or they can easily go by

1232
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:00,760
Speaker 1: the wayside as people get crazy. Point and as I've

1233
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:03,679
Speaker 1: had many older people tell me in my studies, nobody

1234
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:06,080
Speaker 1: really knows you as well as your sister, like you're

1235
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 1: going to or your brother and you're going to want

1236
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:13,640
Speaker 1: them around later on in life. So you know, you know,

1237
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 1: I think that's the estrangement thing I see in the

1238
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 1: book that I wish people in their family lives had

1239
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 1: what was here in Central New York. You know, we

1240
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 1: had the Eroquoi nation, which had the seventh generation principle,

1241
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:31,400
Speaker 1: like act like what you're going to do now is

1242
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 1: consider how it will affect seven generations hents. People make

1243
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 1: these hot headed decisions in families and don't think, gee,

1244
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:42,519
Speaker 1: would I like to have these people around their years

1245
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 1: from now, or would I like my kids to know

1246
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 1: their cousins or to know their grandparents, or you know,

1247
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 1: to have my kids have an uncle or an aunt.

1248
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 1: So that's that's something I might leave listeners with, you know,

1249
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:58,240
Speaker 1: is to think about what the thing about like long

1250
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 1: term consequences of these things doing. There's one thing that

1251
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 1: we didn't mention that maybe would be worthwhile if you

1252
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 1: feel like I've been, well, I've been, you know, because

1253
01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 1: I work in this area. It's been impossible to avoid

1254
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:17,599
Speaker 1: endlessly people you know, describing to me the political rifts

1255
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:23,040
Speaker 1: in their own families. And I would have prior, I

1256
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:25,000
Speaker 1: mean I sort of have a pre and a post.

1257
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 1: I mean, prior to the most recent of hims. I

1258
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,960
Speaker 1: had pretty clear advice that. But what a lot of

1259
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:36,559
Speaker 1: people find works is creating kind of a political demilitarized zone,

1260
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 1: operating on a simple principle, can I possibly change this

1261
01:17:41,439 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 1: person's mind. If there's no possibility of changing the person's mind,

1262
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 1: then simply avoid it. I mean, you know, talk about

1263
01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:53,600
Speaker 1: what you're binge watching, and it takes some discipline, but

1264
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:57,840
Speaker 1: people can be very firm, like, you know, if we

1265
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:01,960
Speaker 1: start to talk about the election, I won't stay. And

1266
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:04,000
Speaker 1: it's really worked for a lot of people if they're

1267
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:07,920
Speaker 1: you know, just this notion. There's some things that you

1268
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:10,120
Speaker 1: just can't talk about, and this is one of them.

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01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:12,800
Speaker 1: And people still want to love their families. One thing

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01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:15,080
Speaker 1: we know it look like about human beings and all

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01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 1: of our relationships, Opposites don't Opposites may attract but they

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01:18:19,840 --> 01:18:22,679
Speaker 1: don't make lasting relationships. So we tend to like people

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01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 1: who are pretty much like ourselves, and especially in terms

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01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:30,080
Speaker 1: of core values. And that operates in families, so that

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01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:33,639
Speaker 1: you can be friends with somebody who doesn't share your values.

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01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:38,320
Speaker 1: But it's effortful, you know, it takes planning and effort

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01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 1: and reminding yourselves that you know you love this person

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01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 1: as a kid or whatever. It's challenging. But you know,

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01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:51,800
Speaker 1: I haven't found any recommendable strategy in families, you know,

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01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:56,080
Speaker 1: other than you know, avoidance, if it's at all possible.

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01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 1: Before we head out, I do want to end on

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01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:03,920
Speaker 1: a speed round. Who's your celebrity crush? I would love

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01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:07,960
Speaker 1: to end with one like what would be? And I

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01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:09,800
Speaker 1: know this is so hard because there's a lot but

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01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:12,160
Speaker 1: to all of our listeners. We have a lot of

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01:19:12,200 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 1: listeners who you know, I mean they write in all

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01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 1: the time. They talk about their connections with their family,

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01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 1: whether they're positive ones, their siblings or you know, challenging ones.

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01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:25,599
Speaker 1: What would be the one piece of advice that you

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01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:30,599
Speaker 1: would give to our listeners about their you know, family

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01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:34,639
Speaker 1: or if anybody's you know, in the situation of trying

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01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 1: to reconcile I would encourage people in the following situation

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01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:43,639
Speaker 1: to think carefully if you're a strange from someone after

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01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:47,760
Speaker 1: years or decades, and that person once back in and

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01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 1: it's not a dangerous or damaging situation. If someone is

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01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:55,719
Speaker 1: asking for one last chance, I would give it to them.

1297
01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 1: And if someone offers you another chance, I would take it.

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01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:04,800
Speaker 1: I think in general, for people, it helps them to

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01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:09,160
Speaker 1: have a certain kind of family connection, no matter how tenuous.

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01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 1: It helps make them feel like their life is well

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01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:17,160
Speaker 1: lived and like they are a complete person. So it

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01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:19,599
Speaker 1: may not work out, but I would argue for almost

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01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 1: anyone if you're in an estrangement, ponder giving it a chance,

1304
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:29,639
Speaker 1: under protected conditions, understanding your boundaries, etc. You know, I've

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01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:32,320
Speaker 1: talked to hundreds of people who didn't regret that choice,

1306
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 1: even if it didn't work out, And I just think, look,

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01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:39,480
Speaker 1: I mean, our world is filled with divisions and difficulties

1308
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:42,160
Speaker 1: politically and socially. The one place in which we have

1309
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:45,479
Speaker 1: some control is in our families, and why not take

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01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:49,639
Speaker 1: that opportunity if you possibly can. Thank you, Carl. Your

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01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:52,680
Speaker 1: book is called fault Lines, Fractured Families and How to

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01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:55,360
Speaker 1: Mend Them. Thank you so much for coming on and

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01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:57,519
Speaker 1: talking to you guys. Bill didn't so great. Bill didn't

1314
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:01,960
Speaker 1: get your first celebrity crush. There we are my first

1315
01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:09,160
Speaker 1: first celebrity crush. It might be Mary Anne. I mean

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01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:13,240
Speaker 1: that would be a possibility, would I think that might

1317
01:21:13,240 --> 01:21:17,760
Speaker 1: have been one of the earliest ones. And then when

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01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:20,320
Speaker 1: I got old enough to really know, it was totally

1319
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:25,519
Speaker 1: supiller in. Oh, yeah, this has been really amazing. I

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01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:28,040
Speaker 1: loved it. Thank you so much. I feel I've known

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01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 1: you for a long time. I know, I just really

1322
01:21:30,280 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 1: admire you, thought about it, considered it, uh you know,

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01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:36,320
Speaker 1: and are working through it. It's really great, awesome kind

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01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:44,160
Speaker 1: of models for yes, all right, thank you, Carl Sibling

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01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,519
Speaker 1: Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson.

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01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:51,720
Speaker 1: Producer is Alison, President, editor is Josh Wendish. Music by

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01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 1: Mark Hudson aka Uncle Mark. If you want to show

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01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 1: us some love, rate the show and leave us a review.

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01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:01,439
Speaker 1: This show is powered by simple Cat. Do you